NationStates Jolt Archive

This is something I don't get... This is mainly in the area of Israel V Palastine, often in a debate someone will conclude with something like this: "Oh well, they are both equally as evil as each other....", however that can't be true. Two governments can't be equally as evil, there must be a worse government.

I know that Israel's government is pretty lousy, but is it wrong to admit that Hamas is worse? Personally i feel that Hamas is worse...(edit)

Do you really think that they equal in crapness?

maybe

*pointless comment*

This is something I don't get... This is mainly in the area of Israel V Palastine, often in a debate someone will conclude with something like this: "Oh well, they are both equally as evil as each other....", however that can't be true. Two governments can't be equally as evil, there must be a worse government.

I know that Israel's government is pretty lousy, but is it wrong to admit that Hamas is worse? Personally i feel so...

Do you really think that they equal in crapness?

I think people with a rudimentary knowledge of the Middle East think that they are equal. Of course, the fact that one is condemned by a host of world governments as a terrorist group, while the other is a member of the United Nations should say plenty.

If Palestine achieved statehood and continued to be headed by Hamas, for example, it is very unlikely that it could enter into the UN or other international bodies of cooperation.

This is something I don't get... This is mainly in the area of Israel V Palastine, often in a debate someone will conclude with something like this: "Oh well, they are both equally as evil as each other....", however that can't be true. Two governments can't be equally as evil, there must be a worse government.

I know that Israel's government is pretty lousy, but is it wrong to admit that Hamas is worse? Personally i feel so...

Do you really think that they equal in crapness?

It can all be summed up (rather simply despite what many would have you believe)

Israel=Right

Israel=Good

Palestine=Wrong

Palestine=Bad

There you have it. Easy as that. Israel has my, and should have all of America's, total, unconditional support.

It can all be summed up (rather simply despite what many would have you believe)

Israel=Right

Israel=Good

Palestine=Wrong

Palestine=Bad

There you have it. Easy as that. Israel has my, and should have all of America's, total, unconditional support.
*scoffs*

I think people with a rudimentary knowledge of the Middle East think that they are equal. Of course, the fact that one is condemned by a host of world governments as a terrorist group, while the other is a member of the United Nations should say plenty.

If Palestine achieved statehood and continued to be headed by Hamas, for example, it is very unlikely that it could enter into the UN or other international bodies of cooperation.

I have rudimentary study (for that matter an in depth study) of the entire conflict. Israel is completely in the right (albeit getting more wussy and floating towards appeasement) and Palestine and the rest of the Arab world completely wrong. I do not believe they are "equal" in any way. Their governments however, currently, do both suck.

I think people with a rudimentary knowledge of the Middle East think that they are equal. Of course, the fact that one is condemned by a host of world governments as a terrorist group, while the other is a member of the United Nations should say plenty.

If Palestine achieved statehood and continued to be headed by Hamas, for example, it is very unlikely that it could enter into the UN or other international bodies of cooperation.

Does that mean you think Palastine is worse?

*scoffs*

You keep scoffing.

Its also difficult, and distorting, to compare the two because Israel is a soverign state, with an established political body or government, just like every regular nation.

Whereas Palestine has never been a soverign state, and the autonomy of its government or political body is questionable. In addition, it consists of of a spuriously-related internal population.

For example, in Israel, if the IDF kills a civilian we can blame the IDF.

But in Palestine, if Hamas kills a civilian, then its harder to blame Hamas because the main political body disowns responsibility while the military wing of Hamas takes responsibility. They are two semi-autonomous wings of the same group, yet the former consistently disowns the latter when it helps the political situation. In addition, all of the other political groups have their political wing, and their terrorist wing. So on one hand they can play the diplomacy card, and on the other they can play the terror card, while the diplomacy side never has to take flak for the terror side.

Imagine if the IDF killed someone, took credit for it, and then the Knesset said "oh, we don't know anything about that." Thats what the Palestinian governing bodies are like.

I have rudimentary study (for that matter an in depth study) of the entire conflict. Israel is completely in the right (albeit getting more wussy and floating towards appeasement) and Palestine and the rest of the Arab world completely wrong. I do not believe they are "equal" in any way. Their governments however, currently, do both suck.

Well you're right, they aren't equal in any way. There isn't even a legitimate political body called "Palestine" or an autonomous government in the Occupied Territories. We're essentially comparing a soverign state, Israel, with occupied land often termed Palestine that has never been a soverign state.

Does that mean you think Palastine is worse?

There really is no political group called "Palestine" for me to say is worse. What we have is the West Bank and Gaza, the Occupied Territories. They have a questionable pseudo-government. I'm not even sure how we can compare the two.

However, the current bodies that control the Occupied Territories with some autonomy, like Hamas and Fatah, are far worse than the State of Israel.

There really is no political group called "Palestine" for me to say is worse. What we have is the West Bank and Gaza, the Occupied Territories. They have a questionable pseudo-government. I'm not even sure how we can compare the two.

However, the current bodies that control the Occupied Territories with some autonomy, like Hamas and Fatah, are far worse than the State of Israel.

And yet people compare them both as if they were both two terrorist organizations, both equally as corrupt. I just don't understand how people do this...

And yet people compare them both as if they were both two terrorist organizations, both equally as corrupt. I just don't understand how people do this...

Anti-Semitism explains a large part of it. Anti-Semitism desguised as anti-Israeli sentiment or anti-Zionism has long been exposed as the "New Anti-Semitism." Jewish groups against anti-Semitism, like the Anti-Defemation League (ADL) confirm this all the time.

The lack of a truly free press in many European, African, and especially Arab states has a large part to do with it too. If the media is only publishing anti-Israeli propaganda, then it explains why there is so much demonization of Israel in the countries where it occurs. And again, anti-Semitism can be spotted, as many of the states most critical of Israel have long histories of anti-Semitism that correlate (like France).

Anti-Semitism explains a large part of it. Anti-Semitism desguised as anti-Israeli sentiment or anti-Zionism has long been exposed as the "New Anti-Semitism." Jewish groups against anti-Semitism, like the Anti-Defemation League (ADL) confirm this all the time.

The lack of a truly free press in many European, African, and especially Arab states has a large part to do with it too. If the media is only publishing anti-Israeli propaganda, then it explains why there is so much demonization of Israel in the countries where it occurs. And again, anti-Semitism can be spotted, as many of the states most critical of Israel have long histories of anti-Semitism that correlate (like France).

I've heard about this, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's being published in mainstream media....

It can all be summed up (rather simply despite what many would have you believe)

Israel=Right

Israel=Good

Palestine=Wrong

Palestine=Bad

There you have it. Easy as that. Israel has my, and should have all of America's, total, unconditional support.
Yeah the Palestinians are so bad with their being abused and oppressed by the Israelis over and over again:rolleyes: . Why should Israel have unconditional support to violate human rights, international will, and the soveriegnity of its neighbours? Long live Palestine and to Israel and its supporters I say:upyours:

I've heard about this, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's being published in mainstream media....

Well, its less evident in Western media. In the media of various African and Arab states the anti-Semitism is just blatent. It was just recently in Lebanon where they made a TV series about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The anti-Jewish Czarist phamplet that talked about how Jews had a conspiracy to take over the world and use the blood of babies to make matzah

But its been noted in Western media as well, to a degree that is far less extreme. Honest Reporting (HonestReporting.com) has done numerous editorials on the anti-Israeli bias in Western media, as has the ADL.

Well you're right, they aren't equal in any way. There isn't even a legitimate political body called "Palestine" or an autonomous government in the Occupied Territories. We're essentially comparing a soverign state, Israel, with occupied land often termed Palestine that has never been a soverign state.
It has been a nation, which is more important than "states". The nation of Palestine and arabs in general have on the land currently controlled by the occupation forces for centuries. "Israel" uses terrorism oked by the government far more than Palestine. Israel is a terrorist state, no other way to put it.

It has been a nation, which is more important than "states". The nation of Palestine and arabs in general have on the land currently controlled by the occupation forces for centuries. "Israel" uses terrorism oked by the government far more than Palestine. Israel is a terrorist state, no other way to put it.

Yeah but.... thats....wrong....just wrong.

Anti-Semitism explains a large part of it. Anti-Semitism desguised as anti-Israeli sentiment or anti-Zionism has long been exposed as the "New Anti-Semitism." Jewish groups against anti-Semitism, like the Anti-Defemation League (ADL) confirm this all the time.

The lack of a truly free press in many European, African, and especially Arab states has a large part to do with it too. If the media is only publishing anti-Israeli propaganda, then it explains why there is so much demonization of Israel in the countries where it occurs. And again, anti-Semitism can be spotted, as many of the states most critical of Israel have long histories of anti-Semitism that correlate (like France).
Look there is no conspiracy theory against your precious jews. The media in the west is clearly pro-Israeli. And for the 1000th time, anti-Israel is not anti-Jew

It has been a nation, which is more important than "states". The nation of Palestine and arabs in general have on the land currently controlled by the occupation forces for centuries. "Israel" uses terrorism oked by the government far more than Palestine. Israel is a terrorist state, no other way to put it.

It actually isn't more important than states. According to the anthropological use of the term, there are about seven nations in the United States, one being referred to as "Dixie" or "The South." Yet, that is merely cultural, it has no real political weight. The concept of a nation in this sense is far, far less important than political statehood.

In addition, there was no "nation" of Palestine that existed for centuries. It arose within the last century. Arabs in the region never viewed themselves as "Palestinians" nor did they share the coherent culture that Palestinians do today. The coherent culture of Palestine today that exists developed in tandem with Jewish settlement, and virtually all anthropologists and historians (including anti-Israeli ones, like Benny Morris, and Arab ones, like Edward Said) will admit that part of this Palestinian nationality consists of a hatred for Jews and the embracing of terrorism.

Look there is no conspiracy theory against your precious jews. The media in the west is clearly pro-Israeli. And for the 1000th time, anti-Israel is not anti-Jew

American media is pro-Israeli. Virtually all other Western media isn't. And, as I stated, groups like Honest Reporting have covered this. In fact, Honest Reporting has statistics on various Western media groups that demonstrate Israel has been singled out in contrast to the Palestinians, even when Palestinians have been involved in more terror and more killing of civilians than Israelis.

You keep scoffing.
scoffy scoff scoff

American media is pro-Israeli. Virtually all other Western media isn't. And, as I stated, groups like Honest Reporting have covered this. In fact, Honest Reporting has statistics on various Western media groups that demonstrate Israel has been singled out in contrast to the Palestinians, even when Palestinians have been involved in more terror and more killing of civilians than Israelis.
Actually non-American news isnt baised, they are fair and accurate. And Palestinian civilians have been killed with a 3 to 1 ratio to Israelis.

Actually non-American news isnt baised, they are fair and accurate. And Palestinian civilians have been killed with a 3 to 1 ratio to Israelis.

Ha! I would like to see a RELIABLE source for that please.

Actually non-American news isnt baised, they are fair and accurate. And Palestinian civilians have been killed with a 3 to 1 ratio to Israelis.

*dies laughing*

Actually non-American news isnt baised, they are fair and accurate. And Palestinian civilians have been killed with a 3 to 1 ratio to Israelis.

A three to one ratio? Not according to the Institute for Counter-Terrorism:

Statistics from 2000 to presesnt (http://www.ict.org.il/casualties_project/stats_page.cfm)

"Only 16.7% of Palestinian Arab fatalities are verified civilian non-combatants, whereas 69.1% of Israeli fatalities are verified civilian non-combatants."

Now, Palestinians deaths are 3 to 1 against Israeli deaths. But most of those Palestinian deaths are the deaths of terrorists and combatants, in addition to Palestinians killing themselves. There isn't a 3 to 1 ratio of civilian deaths, just a 3 to 1 ratio of deaths. Including Palestinians killing each other!

The Institute of Counter-Terrorism records the name, location, and way every person listed died. Its quite accurate. But make sure to read each study, the statistics linked to are a compilation.

Ha! I would like to see a RELIABLE source for that please.
ifamericansknew.org try this one. If this isnt reliable enough, I really dont care.

Anti-Semitism explains a large part of it. Anti-Semitism desguised as anti-Israeli sentiment or anti-Zionism has long been exposed as the "New Anti-Semitism." Jewish groups against anti-Semitism, like the Anti-Defemation League (ADL) confirm this all the time.

The lack of a truly free press in many European, African, and especially Arab states has a large part to do with it too. If the media is only publishing anti-Israeli propaganda, then it explains why there is so much demonization of Israel in the countries where it occurs. And again, anti-Semitism can be spotted, as many of the states most critical of Israel have long histories of anti-Semitism that correlate (like France).
Actually, I think you'll find that Isreal states that basically any wrongdoings towards it, or any ill statements of it are anti-Semitic.

Which is total bullshit, truth be told.

And our media is generally very pro-Isreal, I think you'd find if you looked at the actual channels, rather than just reading it in the Jurasalem Times or whatever.

people say that they are equally wrong not so much because they ARE equally wrong but because it is a complex situation with more than enough wrong to go around.

people who say that israel is wrong wrong wrong and the palestinians are but innocent victims AND those who say that the palestinians are wrong wrong wrong and the israelis are but protecting themselves are those who refuse to acknowledge how complicated the situation is.

if it were simple, it would have been fixed already.

ifamericansknew.org try this one. If this isnt reliable enough, I really dont care.

That is unreliable, firstly it is obviously bias, secondly they could have easily made those statistics up, they didn't give a source for those statistics.

I'm with Soviestan. Anti-Israeli doesn't mean anti-Jew. And whether or not the rest of Westen media is or isn't pro-Israel, the American media most certainly is biased in their favor. And while I certainly support pacifism above all else and I find it difficult to empathize with any terrorist acts, if some group moved into my back yard, bulldozed my neighborhood (with the rest of my family still in the house), and threw me into some shitty "settlement" on the outskirts of where I'd lived my entire life and left me with nothing to live for, I might just strap a bomb to myself too.

P.S. The astute logic presented by The Niaman in his pro-Israeli argument also made me want to strap a bomb to myself, but I think my head exploded involuntarily before I had the chance.

American media is pro-Israeli. Virtually all other Western media isn't. And, as I stated, groups like Honest Reporting have covered this. In fact, Honest Reporting has statistics on various Western media groups that demonstrate Israel has been singled out in contrast to the Palestinians, even when Palestinians have been involved in more terror and more killing of civilians than Israelis.

So,if one is against Israel,one must be wrong...cause,you know,it's not possible for both sides to be wrong.It's all black and white,it is.[/Sarcasm]

If you look hard enough,you'll find a bias because you want to.It doesn't mean there is necessarily a real bias,even if one thinks there is.

Israel has done a good share of killing civilians...just a few days ago the CNN(of course,it's anti-Israeli too,right?) said the Israelis attacked a base where some rockets were fired at them or something and killed about 50 civilians in the process.You know,just to be safe.

if some group moved into my back yard, bulldozed my neighborhood (with the rest of my family still in the house), and threw me into some shitty "settlement" on the outskirts of where I'd lived my entire life and left me with nothing to live for, I might just strap a bomb to myself too.


That didn't actually happen though...

P.S. The astute logic presented by The Niaman in his pro-Israeli argument also made me want to strap a bomb to myself, but I think my head exploded involuntarily before I had the chance.


:D

That didn't actually happen though...
Yes, but it actually does still happen.

Yes, but it actually does still happen.

Yer but it actually doesn't... Or nothing in the realm deserving of terrorism.

That didn't actually happen though...

Not in all cases,true,but there are a couple of cases where Palestinians were kicked off to make room for Israeli settlers.I don't remember the names right now of the places,but I think Haifa was one of them.I'm not sure,though,so you don't have to necessarily trust me on the names.Go research it yourself if you like.

Not in all cases,true,but there are a couple of cases where Palestinians were kicked off to make room for Israeli settlers.I don't remember the names right now of the places,but I think Haifa was one of them.I'm not sure,though,so you don't have to necessarily trust me on the names.Go research it yourself if you like.

I don't think that deserves terrorism...

I don't think that deserves terrorism...

Ok,if we assume that you agree that the above has occured in the conflicts of Palestine and Israel...so what does deserve terrorism,pray tell?

Ok,if we assume that you agree that the above has occured in the conflicts of Palestine and Israel...so what does deserve terrorism,pray tell?

Nothing...

Nothing...

Ok,what's with the three dots at the end of every sentence?

So,therefore,Israel had no right to terrorize the Western power,and Britian specifically,to pressure them into pulling out and allowing Israel room to declare itself an independent nation?Like back in 1949?Right?

So,Israel and Palestine are both wrong,since both have been headed by terrorists at certain points.Hell,Sharon,the last leader,was a member of the Stern gang,a Jewish terrorist group which bombed embassies and such terrorist action to try and get the British empire to create Israel.

Is that what you're secretly trying to say?Mabye?Perhaps?

Ok,what's with the three dots at the end of every sentence?

So,therefore,Israel had no right to terrorize the Western power,and Britian specifically,to pressure them into pulling out and allowing Israel room to declare itself an independent nation?Like back in 1949?Right?

So,Israel and Palestine are both wrong,since both have been headed by terrorists at certain points.Hell,Sharon,the last leader,was a member of the Stern gang,a Jewish terrorist group which bombed embassies and such terrorist action to try and get the British empire to create Israel.

Is that what you're secretly trying to say?Mabye?Perhaps?

They both have their faults, but my point is, Palastine is worse not equally as bad.

And I use the three dots for when I am confused about your post or about mine, why do you use no spaces after your commers?................................................

I don't think that deserves terrorism...
You might not, I do. That's Apartheid and nothing better.

They both have their faults, but my point is, Palastine is worse not equally as bad.

And I use the three dots for when I am confused about your post or about mine, why do you use no spaces after your commers?................................................

Oh,what a low blow.I'm so hurt..............:upyours: I was just asking,man,no need to get all defensive.

Palestine and Israel are both equally bad.That is why this conflict seems to have been around since,well,forever.They are both selfish governments who try to acheive their interests without compromise,but that never seems to lead to lasting peace,it seems.

And that's my opinion.

Oh,what a low blow.I'm so hurt..............:upyours: I was just asking,man,no need to get all defensive.

Palestine and Israel are both equally bad.That is why this conflict seems to have been around since,well,forever.They are both selfish governments who try to acheive their interests without compromise,but that never seems to lead to lasting peace,it seems.

And that's my opinion.

But if you compare the statistics showing that Palastine cause more deaths, and combine that with the fact that Israel do bad things by meerly lack of consideration and realisation of the implications (Phew), the small amount of Israelie terrosim is not endorsed by the government. Palastine however do most of their acts through hate (a lot of the time) and their terroism is endorsed by the palastine government.......................................................................................... ...................................................

But if you compare the statistics showing that Palastine cause more deaths, and combine that with the fact that Israel do bad things by meerly lack of consideration and realisation of the implications (Phew), the small amount of Israelie terrosim is not endorsed by the government. Palastine however do most of their acts through hate (a lot of the time) and terroism is endorsed by the government *none of your full stops rubbish!*
The Palestinian Authority was actually trying to make peace, despite HAMAS being in control. Terrorism was denouced by the government.

Now the tables have really turned.

Yeah the Palestinians are so bad with their being abused and oppressed by the Israelis over and over again:rolleyes: . Why should Israel have unconditional support to violate human rights, international will, and the soveriegnity of its neighbours? Long live Palestine and to Israel and its supporters I say:upyours:

Palestine is short another two HAMAS members or so I heard.

Palestine is short another two HAMAS members or so I heard.
I think you'll find that an innocent family was killed on that beach.

But if you compare the statistics showing that Palastine cause more deaths, and combine that with the fact that Israel do bad things by meerly lack of consideration and realisation of the implications (Phew), the small amount of Israelie terrosim is not endorsed by the government. Palastine however do most of their acts through hate (a lot of the time) and their terroism is endorsed by the palastine government.......................................................................................... ...................................................

That's a joke,right? So,it's just a matter of numbers to you,eh? That's sad.

Ok,a lack of consideration and realisation of the implications...that's just a retarded statement,no offense.That's like saying that if someone decided to launch a nuclear warhead without realising the consequences,they shouldn't be held accountable.Same logic,pretty much.

I'd think that with modern technology and all,You could,in fact,kill certain people that you know in an area without excessive collateral damage,like with snipers and such.Of course,Israel doesn't seem to mind the civilians.They just got in the way,not Israel's fault.

Yes,of course,the Palestinian government sponsors terrorism...I'll hazard a guess why...Their goverment is being taken over by terrorists.I'd think the terrorist would like to justify their actions.During the days of Yasser Arafat,there was at least a masquerade that the Palestinian government did not approve the terrorists. But,now there isn't much of that anymore.


Its seems that the situation is very parallel to that of Iraq,except the Israelis aren't patrolling the streets of Palestine,thought they are called the Occupied territories,and all.And the Americans are doing a very good job in Iraq...do you think Israel is in Palestine?

That's a joke,right? So,it's just a matter of numbers to you,eh? That's sad.

Ok,a lack of consideration and realisation of the implications...that's just a retarded statement,no offense.That's like saying that if someone decided to launch a nuclear warhead without realising the consequences,they shouldn't be held accountable.Same logic,pretty much.

I'd think that with modern technology and all,You could,in fact,kill certain people that you know in an area without excessive collateral damage,like with snipers and such.Of course,Israel doesn't seem to mind the civilians.They just got in the way,not Israel's fault.

Yes,of course,the Palestinian government sponsors terrorism...I'll hazard a guess why...Their goverment is being taken over by terrorists.I'd think the terrorist would like to justify their actions.During the days of Yasser Arafat,there was at least a masquerade that the Palestinian government did not approve the terrorists. But,now there isn't much of that anymore.


Its seems that the situation is very parallel to that of Iraq,except the Israelis aren't patrolling the streets of Palestine,thought they are called the Occupied territories,and all.And the Americans are doing a very good job in Iraq...do you think Israel is in Palestine?

Thats irrelivant, I did not say that Israel is good, i said that Palastine is worse. I can't be bothered to debate the bulk of that because it's just distorted, but I did not say that Israel should not be held acountable, that is not the issue. The issue here is that the Palastine government is clearly worse then Israel.

The issue here is that the Palastine government is clearly worse then Israel.
According to some. I find Isreal even more indefensible.

Look folks, I don't think anyone here is advocating the use of violence on either side of the argument, and neither am I. I'm only saying that the Israeli government has left the Palestinians with so little to live for, it's pretty easy to understand the Palestinians' aggressive actions from a psychological standpoint. An individual can only take so much abuse before he or she a) rolls over and dies, or b) goes batshit insane. Most of the Palestinians have chosen option b, and if I were in such a situation, I probably would too, if only to possibly show the rest of the world what the Israelis had turned me into.

I found this on net while searching about nuclear threat etc and was shocked is this true?

Brigadier General Says Israel is the problem not Iraq
Jan 7, 2003
by James J. David a retired Brigadier General


(James J. David is a retired Brigadier General and a graduate of the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College, and the National Security Course, National Defense University, Washington, DC. He served as a Company Commander with the 101st Airborne Division in the Republic of Vietnam in 1969 and 1970 and also served nearly 3 years of Army active duty in and around the Middle East from 1967-1969.)

Question: Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons?

Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections?

Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions?

Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire?

Answer: Israel

Question: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)?

Answer: Israel

Question: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed?

Answer: Israel

Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?

Answer: Israel

Question: What country in the Middle East created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses?

Answer: Israel

Question: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated?

Answer: Israel

Question: In what country in the Middle East was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated?

Answer: Israel

Question: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister?

Answer: Israel

Question: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 American sailors?

Answer: Israel

Question: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union?

Answer: Israel

Question: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon?

Answer: Israel

Question: What Middle East country allows American Jewish murderers to flee to its country to escape punishment in the United States and refuses to extradite them once in their custody?

Answer: Israel

Question: What Middle East country preaches against hate yet builds a shrine and a memorial for a murderer who killed 29 Palestinians while they prayed in their Mosque.

Answer: Israel

Question: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders?

Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East deliberately targeted a U.N. Refugee Camp in Qana, Lebanon and killed 103 innocent men, women, and especially children?

Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes?

Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East receives more than one-third of all U.S. aid yet is the 16th richest country in the world?

Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East receives U.S. weapons for free and then sells the technology to the Republic of China even at the objections of the U.S.?

Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely insults the American people by having its Prime Minister address the United States Congress and lecturing them like children on why they have no right to reduce foreign aid?

Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East had its Prime Minister announce to his staff not to worry about what the United States says because "We control America?"

Answer: Israel

Question: What country in the Middle East was cited by Amnesty International for demolishing more than 4000 innocent Palestinian homes as a means of ethnic cleansing.

Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East has just recently used a weapon of mass destruction, a one-ton smart bomb, dropping it in the center of a highly populated area killing 15 civilians including 9 children?

Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East routinely kills young Palestinian children for no reason other than throwing stones at armored vehicles, bulldozers, or tanks?

Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East signed the Oslo Accords promising to halt any new Jewish Settlement construction, but instead, has built more than 270 new settlements since the signing?

Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East has assassinated more than 100 political officials of its opponent in the last 2 years while killing hundreds of civilians in the process, including dozens of children?

Answer: Israel

Question: Which country in the Middle East regularly violates the Geneva Convention by imposing collective punishment on entire towns, villages, and camps, for the acts of a few, and even goes as far as demolishing entire villages while people are still in their homes?

Answer: Israel

Question: What country in the Middle East is the United States threatening to attack because of fear that it may be a threat to us and to our allies?

Answer: Iraq

http://reportersnotebook.com/newforum/indexforum.html

The Palestinian Authority was actually trying to make peace, despite HAMAS being in control. Terrorism was denouced by the government.

Now the tables have really turned.

Ha! Hardly. No, the Palestinian Authority made it appear like they were making peace. On several counts Israel was willing to agree to a peace deal that included the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.* Good old Arafat rejected these...oh I'm sure more politics were involved that us mortals can barely comprehend, but the fact remains that the facade was a pursuit of peace--hardly an actuality.

* I reference the camp David Accords.

I found this on net while searching about nuclear threat etc and was shocked is this true?

Brigadier General Says Israel is the problem not Iraq
Jan 7, 2003
by James J. David a retired Brigadier General


(James J. David is a retired Brigadier General and a graduate of the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College, and the National Security Course, National Defense University, Washington, DC. He served as a Company Commander with the 101st Airborne Division in the Republic of Vietnam in 1969 and 1970 and also served nearly 3 years of Army active duty in and around the Middle East from 1967-1969.)

<snip>

http://reportersnotebook.com/newforum/indexforum.html

Back all of that up. There are a lot of unsubstantiated allegations; while I don't deny that some of it may be true, always be sure to have a legitimate source that substantiates your claims. All of them.

I found this on net while searching about nuclear threat etc and was shocked is this true?

Brigadier General Says Israel is the problem not Iraq
Jan 7, 2003
by James J. David a retired Brigadier General


(James J. David is a retired Brigadier General and a graduate of the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College, and the National Security Course, National Defense University, Washington, DC. He served as a Company Commander with the 101st Airborne Division in the Republic of Vietnam in 1969 and 1970 and also served nearly 3 years of Army active duty in and around the Middle East from 1967-1969.)

<snip>

http://reportersnotebook.com/newforum/indexforum.html

Back all of that up. There are a lot of unsubstantiated allegations; while I don't deny that some of it may be true, always be sure to have a legitimate source that substantiates your claims. All of them.

I found this on net while searching about nuclear threat etc and was shocked is this true?

Brigadier General Says Israel is the problem not Iraq
Jan 7, 2003
by James J. David a retired Brigadier General


(James J. David is a retired Brigadier General and a graduate of the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College, and the National Security Course, National Defense University, Washington, DC. He served as a Company Commander with the 101st Airborne Division in the Republic of Vietnam in 1969 and 1970 and also served nearly 3 years of Army active duty in and around the Middle East from 1967-1969.)

<snip>

http://reportersnotebook.com/newforum/indexforum.html

Back all of that up. There are a lot of unsubstantiated allegations; while I don't deny that some of it may be true, always be sure to have a legitimate source that substantiates your claims. All of them.

Two governments can't be equally as evil, there must be a worse government.


The simplistic nonsense in the OP seems to have set the tone for virtually this entire thread. Rarely have I seen such idiocy and ignorance crammed into so few pages.

I've given up on trying to use reason on imbeciles who pour out the contents of their limited minds into these fora, but just a couple of points nonetheless:

1) There is no such thing as "evil" as a moral absolute. The concept of evil is a construct of social ethics. It has neither meaning nor content per se; its only meaning is that ascribed by each specific set of social codes. It's become a convenient excuse for those incapable and unwilling to use their minds and to see beyond senseless, manichean, Disneyesque views on the world around them. So what exactly do you mean by "evil"?

2) Whatever your definition of "evil" may be, why, pray do tell, would it be impossible for two opposite sides to be equally wrong? Does it not fit in with your "good guys versus bad guys" distortion (pardon, perception) of the world you live in?

The simplistic nonsense in the OP seems to have set the tone for virtually this entire thread. Rarely have I seen such idiocy and ignorance crammed into so few pages.

I've given up on trying to use reason on imbeciles who pour out the contents of their limited minds into these fora, but just a couple of points nonetheless:

1) There is no such thing as "evil" as a moral absolute. The concept of evil is a construct of social ethics. It has neither meaning nor content per se; its only meaning is that ascribed by each specific set of social codes. It's become a convenient excuse for those incapable and unwilling to use their minds and to see beyond senseless, manichean, Disneyesque views on the world around them. So what exactly do you mean by "evil"?

2) Whatever your definition of "evil" may be, why, pray do tell, would it be impossible for two opposite sides to be equally wrong? Does it not fit in with your "good guys versus bad guys" distortion (pardon, perception) of the world you live in?

The very fact that you rely on insults to try and make your point more clear shows your imaturity. You assume that im some sort of crazy religious nut who believes in evil as being objective, you are obviously so single minded that you just decide that I was not refering to evil as a subjective term. There is harm and hate, if you believe that no one can hate or no one can harm then you are obviously an idiot.

You also assume that i believe that Israel are the "good guys", I believe neither are good, only that palastine are the more hateful and corrupt of the two sides.

Anti-Semitism explains a large part of it. Anti-Semitism desguised as anti-Israeli sentiment or anti-Zionism has long been exposed as the "New Anti-Semitism." Jewish groups against anti-Semitism, like the Anti-Defemation League (ADL) confirm this all the time.

Not true. Among most people under 70 in Europe, anti-Semitism is dead.

...however that can't be true. Two governments can't be equally as evil, there must be a worse government.


Why? For what reason?

(other than the truth of the statement posing inconvienient conclusions regarding one's own political assumptions or biases...)

Of course, the fact that one is condemned by a host of world governments as a terrorist group, while the other is a member of the United Nations should say plenty.


It says nothing. For instance, Taiwan neither enjoys widespread legitimacy as an independent state or membership in the United Nations. Is China, then, perfectly justified in asserting control over Taiwan (even, perhaps, to the detriment of democratic government there)?

Wow Ariddia, you really know how to spoil the fun. While we could spend days arguing the definition of the word "evil", I think it was abundantly clear by the time you commented that the thread had turned into a simple Israel vs. Palestine debate, nothing more. And thanks for trying to sound smart, but I think a good portion of us took Philosophy 101 in college, so skip the crap about the meaning of the word "evil" and give us your two cents on the issue at hand.

Actually, don't. It's pointless, as we've already illustrated. I'm guessing that 90% of those reading this thread have already taken a side on the issue, and quite frankly, I don't want to bother wasting my effort trying to dissuade the Israeli supporters, just as I would recommend them not to waste their time on a Palestinian supporter like myself. Besides, there are many other "hot topics" that we could be arguing about with no hope of changing the other side's opinion, and with a far more entertaining discussion, I believe.

So with that in mind, I'm leaving to start a new thread to argue the pros and cons of a homosexual's right to an abortion in the military, and the role the church should play in such an issue. So come on everyone, bring all your friends. This should be way more exciting than any silly Middle East debate.

Except you, Ariddia. You can't come. No one likes a party pooper.

It's all relative. Both have done bad things and niether has any moral high-ground, but if I had to choose which was worse, I'd go with Palestine for this reason:

When Isreal kill civilians (and I'm in no way saying this is the just thing to do), the normally only do it because they are being heavy handed and clumsy in trying to remove what is, or what is percieved to be a genuine threat.

However, when Palestinians kill Ireali civilians, it's because thoughs civilians are the targets. They didn't get in the way, they didn't attack or hurt anyone, they were just living their lives and got blown up.

Both countries are wrong, it's just that one is being stupid and one is just being plain evil.

Also, I don't see European medias as being anti-Isreali, rather they are anti-American (and thus anti-American allies). As a European Jew myself, I have come across absolutly no anti-Semitism in my life, despite going to a school that was over 60% Muslim, so to say that Europe still has traces of anti-Semitism is unfounded in my experience.

I also believe that it is unjust to bring up the point that "Isreal whouldn't be there". To me, this is avoiding the point. I myself am not a Zionist and believe that the Isreali occupation was wrong. However, the majority of the Palistinians who were moved and the majority of all Isrealis that arrived are now dead or in their old age.

At this stage, the Terrorism is targeting the wrong people. Most Isrealis dying are born in Isreal (I have no source for this, but it's an educated guess), and are thus not foriegn invaders.