NationStates Jolt Archive

Assuming its truth...

Great... Looks like Iraq is emulating Iran’s insane behaviour. I’m not a Saddam apologist, but in a CBC radio interview, an Iraqi gay activist said that this was not happening under the dictator. The States better get its shit together and stabilize this country before they’ve got another beyond-fucked nation on their hands.
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http://www.gaycitynews.com/gcn_511/iraq.html

Following a death-to-gays fatwa issued last October by Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, death squads of the Badr Corps have been systematically targeting gay Iraqis for persecution and execution, gay Iraqis say. But when they ask for help and protection from U.S. occupying authorities in the Green Zone, the secure area officialdom has carved out within Baghdad, gays Iraqis are met with indifference and derision.

“The Badr Corps is committed to the sexual cleansing of Iraq,” said Ali Hili, a 33-year-old gay Iraqi exile in London who, with some 30 other gay Iraqis who have fled to the United Kingdom, five months ago founded the Abu Nawas Group there to support persecuted gay Iraqis. The group is named for a revered eighth-century classical poet of Arab and Persian descent known throughout Middle East cultures and famous for his poems in praise of same-sex love.

And theism at its finest:

"The Ayatollah Sistani, the 77-year-old Iranian-born cleric who is the supreme Shia authority in Iraq, is revered by SCIRI as its spiritual leader. His anti-gay fatwa—available on Sistani’s official Web site—says that “people involved” in homosexuality “should be killed in the worst, most severe way of killing.”"

And another link:

http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/3090/1/158/

Assuming its truth...

Great... Looks like Iraq is emulating Iran’s insane behaviour. I’m not a Saddam apologist, but in a CBC radio interview, an Iraqi gay activist said that this was not happening under the dictator. The States better get its shit together and stabilize this country before they’ve got another beyond-fucked nation on their hands.

Iraq already had laws against gays; under Saddam, and before Saddam's rule, homosexuals could be punished by death.

This is how it is in virtually every country in the Middle East, except Israel.

Iraq already had laws against gays; under Saddam, and before Saddam's rule, homosexuals could be punished by death.

This is how it is in virtually every country in the Middle East, except Israel.

The dude in the interview said that he could go about his business without being lured and targeted by vigilantes. I’d think there were laws, but I’m not sure they were actively enforced. I’ll try to get that CBC interview.

Also, I know about the Iranian anti-gay shit, but I’ve yet to hear about Saddam activity persecuting gays, can you cite?

The dude in the interview said that he could go about his business without being lured and targeted by vigilantes. I’d think there were laws, but I’m not sure they were actively enforced. I’ll try to get that CBC interview.

I think you're right. There were laws, but I don't think they set up traps and hunted homosexuals like in this instance. Other Islamic regimes do though, such as the Taliban. Many Islamic governmental groups are notorious for setting up traps in that fashion.

Also, I know about the Iranian anti-gay shit, but I’ve yet to hear about Saddam activity persecuting gays, can you cite?

I don't think he actively persecuted them, I think there were just laws on the books making homosexuality illegal and punishable by death.

There is actually a wikipedia entry about it, Gay Rights in Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights_in_Iraq)

I don't think he actively persecuted them, I think there were just laws on the books making homosexuality illegal and punishable by death.

There is actually a wikipedia entry about it, Gay Rights in Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights_in_Iraq)

Ya it says he only instituted them in 2001, suggesting that it was only to win over religious conservatives.

Looks like the agenda the US has for Iraq is showing its true colors!

Sorry for interrupting, but I don't know how to start a new thread.

Would anyone be aware of how many countries there are here, on any given day?

Thanks, and my apologies once again.

Danny

Jeez, too bad the US military is'nt actively opposing the insurgents who do this sort of thing, those gay-hating bastards!

Oh, wait...

I don't think he actively persecuted them, I think there were just laws on the books making homosexuality illegal and punishable by death.

There is actually a wikipedia entry about it, Gay Rights in Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights_in_Iraq)
Just how there are laws in the US on the books making it illegal to sodomize another adult.

Jeez, too bad the US military is'nt actively opposing the insurgents who do this sort of thing, those gay-hating bastards!

Oh, wait...

Don't ask, don't tell.

A Clinton policy.

They're doing a great job spreading the message that Islam is a religion of peace. Nothing says peace like death squads.

Just how there are laws in the US on the books making it illegal to sodomize another adult.
I think those have been overturned as unconstitutional.

They're doing a great job spreading the message that Islam is a religion of peace. Nothing says peace like death squads.
They kill tennis players who wear shorts, too.

They kill tennis players who wear shorts, too.
That's understandable. Someone might see a leg and then the whole religion goes to shit.

That's understandable. Someone might see a leg and then the whole religion goes to shit.

Now there's an idea.

Make everyone walk around naked. After all, it's pretty warm there.

That way, if they have a weapon, or a belt of explosives, they'll have to hide that up their ass.

A naked society might be a polite society.

That way, if they have a weapon, or a belt of explosives, they'll have to hide that up their ass.

He’s having explosive diarrhea, oh wait…

They're doing a great job spreading the message that Islam is a religion of peace. Nothing says peace like death squads.

Meh, all religious institutions serve as possibly hate farms, all should be dismantled.

Meh, all religious institutions serve as possibly hate farms, all should be dismantled.
I've got no problem with that.

I've got no problem with that.
Seconded.

I think those have been overturned as unconstitutional.
Overturned, but still in existance. They're just dead letter laws. Much as the Saddam anti-gay laws were.

I think those have been overturned as unconstitutional.

Some of those laws have been overturned, but not all. In several states there are strenuous efforts being made to stack courts so that anti-sodomy laws can be reinstated. At the same time, all over the United States, there are efforts with varying degrees of success to defeat laws proposed to prevent discrimination. And legislation to prevent the picketing of funerals by hate-mongers wasn't written until those hate-mongers graduated from "just gay funerals" to the funerals of soldiers. And the last election was won-- in large part-- by hanging gay people out to dry; making the official marginalisation of gay American citizens a vote-grabber. Essentially tying them to a post, cutting them, and ringing the dinner bell for anyone who liked the smell of blood. At any given time right now there are laws in the works somewhere to actively persocute gay people (ie. legitimising discrimination in housing, in economic benefits and employment opportunities, and in any number of other ways) who have broken no laws and harmed no one. These are laws specifically meant to target one minority for exclusionary treatment, officially rendering them inferior citizens and inferior human beings. And it's happening all the time, with support from even the 'liberal' politicians. And there are targeted efforts to deny gay youth affirming information-- people preferring to let them commit suicide rather than hear anything remotely resembling the message that they're 'okay.' And then there's the quiet gay holocaust that the US gov't perpetrated when it dragged its feet early in the AIDS outbreak because it was "just a bunch of queers" dying-- nobody 'important.' And there are still plenty of jurisdictions where gay people can be murdered for being gay, but the murderers can't be charged for hate crimes, because legislators won't allow the passage of a hate crimes bill (or any anti-discrimination bill, for that matter) that includes gay people. Which amounts to tacit approval of discrimination and violent crime towards gay people.

So... frankly, while the US might not overtly execute gay people anymore, I would hardly call it a leader in recognising their human rights. Hell, South Africa-- which only abolished apartheid in 1991-- has passed more progressive national laws than the US. And someone is surprised that personnel of a military that turfs gay people would turn away gay foreigners when they're being murdered by their own supposed protectors? Wake up and smell the hatred, its stink is heavy in the air-- and many of America's biggest power-brokers are breathing it in deep, they love the smell of it, because they can fuckin' capitalise on it. They can exploit hatred to gain popularity. Never underestimate political America's disregard and disrespect for gays and lesbians, and don't forget about it when people in the US media report on how poorly they're treated in 'those other' countries.

(BTW- Drunken Commies; was just extrapolating on your comment, not targeting negativity at you in particular)

It just goes to show what a wonderful world we could all live in if we just let our homegrown brands of fanatics take over the running of our affairs.

"Them Pakis don't know how to treat their womenfolk. We should get rid of 'em... What? At home, cooking me supper. What's your business with my wife?"

And this is why American soldiers should keep shooting these people (the death squad dudes, I mean.)

Overturned, but still in existance.

Overturned = not law anymore. Marbury vs. Madison.

Assuming its truth...

The States better get its shit together and stabilize this country before they’ve got another beyond-fucked nation on their hands.



oh dear!

Some of those laws have been overturned, but not all. In several states there are strenuous efforts being made to stack courts so that anti-sodomy laws can be reinstated. At the same time, all over the United States, there are efforts with varying degrees of success to defeat laws proposed to prevent discrimination. And legislation to prevent the picketing of funerals by hate-mongers wasn't written until those hate-mongers graduated from "just gay funerals" to the funerals of soldiers. And the last election was won-- in large part-- by hanging gay people out to dry; making the official marginalisation of gay American citizens a vote-grabber. Essentially tying them to a post, cutting them, and ringing the dinner bell for anyone who liked the smell of blood. At any given time right now there are laws in the works somewhere to actively persocute gay people (ie. legitimising discrimination in housing, in economic benefits and employment opportunities, and in any number of other ways) who have broken no laws and harmed no one. These are laws specifically meant to target one minority for exclusionary treatment, officially rendering them inferior citizens and inferior human beings. And it's happening all the time, with support from even the 'liberal' politicians. And there are targeted efforts to deny gay youth affirming information-- people preferring to let them commit suicide rather than hear anything remotely resembling the message that they're 'okay.' And then there's the quiet gay holocaust that the US gov't perpetrated when it dragged its feet early in the AIDS outbreak because it was "just a bunch of queers" dying-- nobody 'important.' And there are still plenty of jurisdictions where gay people can be murdered for being gay, but the murderers can't be charged for hate crimes, because legislators won't allow the passage of a hate crimes bill (or any anti-discrimination bill, for that matter) that includes gay people. Which amounts to tacit approval of discrimination and violent crime towards gay people.

So... frankly, while the US might not overtly execute gay people anymore, I would hardly call it a leader in recognising their human rights. Hell, South Africa-- which only abolished apartheid in 1991-- has passed more progressive national laws than the US. And someone is surprised that personnel of a military that turfs gay people would turn away gay foreigners when they're being murdered by their own supposed protectors? Wake up and smell the hatred, its stink is heavy in the air-- and many of America's biggest power-brokers are breathing it in deep, they love the smell of it, because they can fuckin' capitalise on it. They can exploit hatred to gain popularity. Never underestimate political America's disregard and disrespect for gays and lesbians, and don't forget about it when people in the US media report on how poorly they're treated in 'those other' countries.

(BTW- Drunken Commies; was just extrapolating on your comment, not targeting negativity at you in particular)
...

That does it. That fucking does it. We need a new Martin Luther King Junior, damn it. WE NEED A NEW MLK! We need to have massive gatherings, massive protests, and for the love of *insert diety of your choice here* we need to make it clear to people that their FUCKING STUPID ASS RELIGIOUS MORALITY should NOT be pushed on others!

...

That does it. That fucking does it. We need a new Martin Luther King Junior, damn it. WE NEED A NEW MLK! We need to have massive gatherings, massive protests, and for the love of *insert diety of your choice here* we need to make it clear to people that their FUCKING STUPID ASS RELIGIOUS MORALITY should NOT be pushed on others!

As much as I respect and admire Dr. King and all of the fine work he did... I'm more in line with Malcolm X (pre-softening). A few favourite quotes in particular:
"You can't drive a knife into a man's back nine inches, pull it out six inches, and call it 'progress.'"
"Be peaceful, by courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetary."
"You can't separate peace from freedom because no man can be at peace until he has his freedom."
and "If you aren't ready to die for it, put the word 'freedom' out of your vocabulary."
Gay people have been playing nice for-fucking-ever. Gay people have asked and pleaded, tried reasoning with people and tried personalising the issue and what has it accomplished? Some progress sure, but the ratio of efforts-to-achievements? The ratio of lives taken to gains? How little has been bought with all of theblood that's been spilled? Not just abroad in 'those countries' but even in the most 'progressive' nations on Earth, there are those who call for our extermination, publicly and with impunity. They don't see people and some of them never will, and no matter the volume or scale of massacre, they never will.
The open hand has been spit on, we ought to be seeing more clenched fists and bloody knuckles. Schoolyard 101: sometimes the bully will only back off if you turn around and break his fuckin' nose. Show him some of his own blood and promise him there will be more pain if he doesn't start showing you some goddamned respect. Where is the outrage? Where is the answer to the echoing declaration of war? Where's the rage at the injustice and the slaughter of innocent people? Where is our vengeance and our righteous wrath at being arbitrarily butchered?

As much as I respect and admire Dr. King and all of the fine work he did... I'm more in line with Malcolm X (pre-softening). A few favourite quotes in particular:
"You can't drive a knife into a man's back nine inches, pull it out six inches, and call it 'progress.'"
"Be peaceful, by courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetary."
"You can't separate peace from freedom because no man can be at peace until he has his freedom."
and "If you aren't ready to die for it, put the word 'freedom' out of your vocabulary."
Gay people have been playing nice for-fucking-ever. Gay people have asked and pleaded, tried reasoning with people and tried personalising the issue and what has it accomplished? Some progress sure, but the ratio of efforts-to-achievements? The ratio of lives taken to gains? How little has been paid for with blood? The open hand has been spit on, we ought to be seeing more clenched fists and bloody knuckles. Schoolyard 101: sometimes the bully will only back off if you turn around and break his fuckin' nose. Show him some of his own blood and promise him there will be more pain if he doesn't start showing you some goddamned respect. Where is the outrage?
You forget that Malcom X realized his follies and changed his ways. MLK ended up accomplishing what he desired, though it is possible it was mainly due to being martyred more than anything else. Does peaceful protest work? Yes. What has been done wrong thus far is that it is only a few people speaking up here and there, easily crushed by the masses. You're right, we need outrage. But not violence. It does not solve the problem! It only polorizes and creates more hate on both sides. Why continue the cycle? Why do the EXACT SAME THING YOU HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO?! That makes you no better than them! Nay, I'd daresay it makes you WORSE, because you know exactly what it is like, have been subjected to it, and yet you still DO IT TO THEM!

...

Excuse me, I was ranting there. I do believe you see my point, however. It's MASSIVE peaceful protests that will accomplish our goal. All we need is someone with the charisma and the capability to get the ball rolling.

You forget that Malcom X realized his follies and changed his ways. MLK ended up accomplishing what he desired, though it is possible it was mainly due to being martyred more than anything else. Does peaceful protest work? Yes. What has been done wrong thus far is that it is only a few people speaking up here and there, easily crushed by the masses. You're right, we need outrage. But not violence. It does not solve the problem! It only polorizes and creates more hate on both sides. Why continue the cycle? Why do the EXACT SAME THING YOU HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO?! That makes you no better than them! Nay, I'd daresay it makes you WORSE, because you know exactly what it is like, have been subjected to it, and yet you still DO IT TO THEM!

...

Excuse me, I was ranting there. I do believe you see my point, however. It's MASSIVE peaceful protests that will accomplish our goal. All we need is someone with the charisma and the capability to get the ball rolling.

And all of that is very fine and rational and blah blah blah... but "blah blah blah" is all that some of the most vicious opponents of equality hear-- and it's all they'll ever hear. Some of them simply can not be reasoned with-- like the schoolyard bully. The only language they understand is that which they use. You can't persuade them, you can't bring them around, and as long as they're out there they will ferment hatred against you. And because their message is one that doesn't require the kind of reason that you espouse, it will continue to spread wherever it finds weak, lazy minds. The only message you can ever hope to get across to those people is "stay the hell out of my way, if you try to do me harm I will make you bleed," and the only way to make them hear you is to show them you mean it. Using rationality and peace to gather your allies is fine, but crow as much as you like about polarising things-- some enemies will never be won over, they will always oppose you (possibly right down to your right to exist), and for them you can't win the battle of ideas. So you have to deter them from outright war by demonstrating to them that you are ready to take them out-- to kill for your right to survive-- if they dare to try and come after you. Stick the body of their vanguard on a pole and leave it out in the sun for them to see and smell the price that you personally will make them pay for bringing their hate to your doorstep.

You say that using the methods of the instigators makes one "worse" than one's attackers? Well not fighting back makes one dead. And there's little moral comfort to take in being dead. But if you respond to force with force and you prevail, at least you're alive to struggle with your conscience afterwards, if it pleases you to do so. But be assured, if you keep your head down, preach and pray and beg for peace while they erase you from existence to satisfy their hate-- they won't be flogging themselves for it. Not tomorrow, not ever. The only regret they'll feel is the regret that you make them feel for their folly-- regret that their hateful hands have been cut off and regret that their hateful sons have been killed while out on polgroms. Regret that they ever fucked with you.

And yeah, like I said-- Malcolm X, pre-softening. Changed his ways. The fact that he had a change of heart/mind doesn't mean that he was wrong in the first place, only that he chose to try another approach. And he still got assassinated, for all the good the peaceful path did him-- yet we still remember the calls to arms.

Peace and talk for those who are peaceful and will listen. But for those who will never stop short of making war against you, make war against them, and do it to win. Otherwise all they need to win is time. Time to inevitably grind you down while you talk peace and they make war.