NationStates Jolt Archive


More Haditha Controversy....pt 2

DesignatedMarksman
12-06-2006, 02:19
There's the Iraqis side, the Marine's side, the JAGs side, and then there is Murtha's side, which is a side all unto his own.

Confusing, to say the least. Iraqis say murder, Marines say Rules were followed....



Marine Says Rules Were Followed
Sergeant Describes Hunt for Insurgents in Haditha, Denies Coverup

By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 11, 2006; A01



A sergeant who led a squad of Marines during the incident in Haditha, Iraq, that left as many as 24 civilians dead said his unit did not intentionally target any civilians, followed military rules of engagement and never tried to cover up the shootings, his attorney said.

Staff Sgt. Frank D. Wuterich, 26, told his attorney that several civilians were killed Nov. 19 when his squad went after insurgents who were firing at them from inside a house. The Marine said there was no vengeful massacre, but he described a house-to-house hunt that went tragically awry in the middle of a chaotic battlefield.

"It will forever be his position that everything they did that day was following their rules of engagement and to protect the lives of Marines," said Neal A. Puckett, who represents Wuterich in the ongoing investigations into the incident. "He's really upset that people believe that he and his Marines are even capable of intentionally killing innocent civilians."

Wuterich's detailed version of what happened in the Haditha neighborhood is the first public account from a Marine who was on the ground when the shootings occurred. As the leader of 1st Squad, 3rd Platoon, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, Wuterich was in the convoy of Humvees that was hit by a roadside bomb. He entered the house from which the Marines believed enemy fire was originating and made the initial radio reports to his company headquarters about what was going on, Puckett said.

The reports that Marines wantonly shot unarmed civilians in Haditha, including women and children, allege one of the most shocking, and potentially damaging, incidents of the Iraq war. A criminal investigation looking into possible charges of murder against half a dozen Marines is underway. A separate probe is examining whether Marines tried to cover up the shootings, and whether commanders were negligent in failing to investigate the deaths.

Three Marine officers have been relieved of command. In the absence of a public response from Marine Corps officials -- who are declining to comment to preserve the integrity of the investigation -- reports of what happened in the western Iraqi town have been leaking out piecemeal from the Haditha neighborhood and in Washington.

Wuterich's version contradicts that of the Iraqis, who described a massacre of men, women and children after a bomb killed a Marine. Haditha residents have said that innocent civilians were executed, that some begged for their lives before being shot and that children were killed indiscriminately.

Wuterich told his attorney in initial interviews over nearly 12 hours last week that the shootings were the unfortunate result of a methodical sweep for enemies in a firefight. Two attorneys for other Marines involved in the incident said Wuterich's account is consistent with those they had heard from their clients.

Kevin B. McDermott, who is representing Capt. Lucas M. McConnell, the Kilo Company commander, said Wuterich and other Marines informed McConnell on the day of the incident that at least 15 civilians were killed by "a mixture of small-arms fire and shrapnel as a result of grenades" after the Marines responded to an attack from a house.

McConnell was relieved of his command in April for "failure to investigate," according to McDermott. But the lawyer said McConnell told him that he reported the high number of civilian deaths to the 3rd Battalion executive officer that afternoon and that within a few days the battalion's intelligence chief gave a PowerPoint presentation to Marine commanders.

"It wasn't a situation that dawned on him as the captain of Kilo where it was like, 'Okay, guys, we need to conduct a more thorough investigation,' " McDermott said. "Everywhere up the chain, they had ample access to this thing."

Gary Myers, a civilian attorney for a Marine who was with Wuterich that day, said the Marines followed standard operating procedures when they "cleared" the houses, using fragmentation grenades and gunshots to respond to an immediate threat.

"I can confirm that that version of events is consistent with our position on this case," Myers said. "What this case comes down to is: What were the rules of engagement, and were they followed?"

The defense attorneys said the rules of engagement -- which vary depending on the mission, level of danger and other factors -- are likely to become a central element of their cases because those rules guide how troops can use deadly force on the battlefield. One Marine official said such rules usually require positive identification of a target before shooting but noted that the rules are often circumstantial.

"Once you go back over it, you have to determine if they applied the rules," the Marine official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the Marine Corps does not discuss rules of engagement. "Did they feel threatened? Did they perceive hostile intent or hostile action?"

On Nov. 19, Wuterich's squad left its headquarters at Firm Base Sparta in Haditha at 7 a.m. on a daily mission to drop off Iraqi army troops at a nearby checkpoint. "It was like any other day, we just had to watch out for IEDs [improvised explosive devices] and any other activity that looked suspicious," said Marine Cpl. James Crossan, 21, in an interview from his home in North Bend, Wash. He was riding in the four-Humvee convoy as it turned left onto Chestnut Road, heading west at 7:15 a.m.

Shortly after the turn, a bomb buried in the road ripped through the last Humvee. The blast instantly killed the driver, Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20. Crossan, who was in the front passenger seat, remembered hearing someone yell, "Get some morphine." Then he passed out.

Wuterich, driving the third Humvee in the line, immediately stopped the convoy and got out, Puckett said.

Puckett said that while Wuterich was evaluating the scene, Marines noticed a white, unmarked car full of "military-aged men" lingering near the bomb site. When Marines ordered the men to stop, they ran; Puckett said it was standard procedure at the time for the Marines to shoot suspicious people fleeing a bombing, and the Marines opened fire, killing four or five men.

"The first thing he thought was it could be a vehicle-borne bomb or these guys could be ready to do a drive-by shooting," Puckett said, explaining that the Marines were on alert for such coordinated, multi-stage attacks.

Iraqis in the Haditha neighborhood interviewed in recent weeks said the vehicle was a taxi carrying a group of students to their homes and that the driver tried to back away from the site, fleeing in fear. One account said that the Marines shot the men while they were still in the car.

Wuterich officially reported to his headquarters that there had been a makeshift bomb and called for a Quick Reaction Force, Puckett said. The first group encountered an unexploded bomb on another route -- fueling concerns that insurgents were mounting an attack on the daily morning convoy -- and a second force headed out. That group, including Marines with the 3rd Squad and the platoon's leader, a young second lieutenant, arrived minutes later.

Wuterich told Puckett that no one was emotionally rattled by Terrazas's death because everyone had a job to do, and everyone was concerned about further casualties. As Wuterich began briefing the platoon leader, Puckett said, AK-47 shots rang out from residences on the south side of the road, and the Marines ducked.

A corporal with the unit leaned over to Wuterich and said he saw the shots coming from a specific house, and after a discussion with the platoon leader, they decided to clear the house, according to Wuterich's account.

"There's a threat, and they went to eliminate the threat," Puckett said.

A four-man team of Marines, including Wuterich, kicked in the door and found a series of empty rooms, noticing quickly that there was one room with a closed door and people rustling behind it, Puckett said. They then kicked in that door, tossed a fragmentation grenade into the room, and one Marine fired a series of "clearing rounds" through the dust and smoke, killing several people, Puckett said.

The Marine who fired the rounds -- Puckett said it was not Wuterich -- had experience clearing numerous houses on a deployment in Fallujah, where Marines had aggressive rules of engagement.

Although it was almost immediately apparent to the Marines that the people dead in the room were men, women and children -- most likely civilians -- they also noticed a back door ajar and believed that insurgents had slipped through to a house nearby, Puckett said. The Marines stealthily moved to the second house, kicking in the door, killing one man inside and then using a frag grenade and more gunfire to clear another room full of people, he said.

Wuterich, not having found the insurgents, told the team to stop and headed back to the platoon leader to reassess the situation, Puckett said, adding that his client knew a number of civilians had just been killed.

Neighborhood residents have offered a different account, saying that the Marines went into the houses shooting and ignored pleas from the civilians to spare them.

Marine Reserve Lt. Jonathan Morgenstein, who served in Anbar province from August 2004 to March 2005, said that the account offered by Wuterich's attorney surprised him a bit.

"When I was in Iraq," Morgenstein said, "the Anbar-wide ROEs [rules of engagement] did not say we had the authority to knock down any door, throw in a hand grenade and kill everyone." Still, he said, if someone in a house in Haditha was shooting at them, the Marines' response may have been within procedure. "If they felt they took fire from that house, then that may be authorized."

A Marine who served near Haditha in November said it was not unusual for Marines to respond to attacks "running and gunning" and that it was standard practice to spray rooms with gunfire when threatened. "It may be a bad tactic, but it works," he said. "It keeps you alive."

After clearing the second house, Puckett said, Wuterich immediately got on the radio and reported the "collateral damage." When the company radio operator asked him to estimate how many civilians had been killed, he said he thought it was about 12 to 15.

McConnell, the company commander, "knew the number was high" and reported it to the battalion executive officer, a major, according to McDermott, his lawyer. McConnell also said that a Marine intelligence team investigated the civilian deaths and reported their findings to senior Marine commanders, the lawyer said.

Wuterich told his attorney that he never reported that the civilians in the houses were killed by the bomb blast and maintains that he never tried to obscure the fact that civilians had been killed in the raids. Whether Wuterich gave false information to his superiors is the focus of one of the military investigations. He said the platoon leader, who was on the scene, never expressed concern about the unit's actions and never tried to hide them.

Marine Corps public affairs officers reported that the civilians had been killed in the bomb blast, a report that Puckett believes was the result of a miscommunication.

After going through the houses, Wuterich moved a small group of Marines to the roof of a nearby building to watch the area, Puckett said. At one point, they saw a man in all-black clothing running from one of the houses they had searched. The Marines killed him, Puckett said.

They then noticed another man in all black scurrying between two houses across the street. When they went to investigate, the Marines found a courtyard filled with women and children and asked where the man was, Puckett said.

When the civilians pointed to a third house, the Marines attempted to enter and found a man with an AK-47 inside, flanked by three other men; the first Marine to enter tried to fire his weapon, but it jammed, Puckett said. The Marines then killed those four men.

The unit stayed at the scene for hours, helping to collect bodies as photos were taken. Wuterich, who remains on duty in California, where he lives with his wife and two young daughters, told Puckett that for months no one questioned his actions.

Staff writers Steve Fainaru in San Diego and Thomas E. Ricks in Washington, and researcher Julie Tate contributed to this report.
[NS]Liasia
12-06-2006, 02:21
i'm not even gonna bother...
Whoever marksman is supporting is wrong. End of.
DesignatedMarksman
12-06-2006, 02:24
Liasia']i'm not even gonna bother...
Whoever marksman is supporting is wrong. End of.

Justice. That's what. If the truth says that the marines murdered a bunch of civilians, then they should fry.

If the truth says otherwise...
[NS]Liasia
12-06-2006, 02:25
Justice. That's what. If the truth says that the marines murdered a bunch of civilians, then they should fry.

If the truth says otherwise...

The truth as decided by.. marines?
DesignatedMarksman
12-06-2006, 02:35
Liasia']The truth as decided by.. marines?

The truth as decided by a jury composed of their peers, NCOs and officers.
[NS]Liasia
12-06-2006, 02:40
The truth as decided by a jury composed of their peers, NCOs and officers.

Who of course will be entirely impartial.
Kroisistan
12-06-2006, 02:50
Well I think regardless, someone should go down. If it was murder, then the entire group should go to prison for a long time. If it was just an accident, the relevant commander should be held responsible, because that many dead civilians is just too big of a fuckup, and a commander should not allow such incompetence.
DesignatedMarksman
12-06-2006, 02:54
Well I think regardless, someone should go down. If it was murder, then the entire group should go to prison for a long time. If it was just an accident, the relevant commander should be held responsible, because that many dead civilians is just too big of a fuckup, and a commander should not allow such incompetence.

2 Commanders are already releived. We'll see what happens next.
Soviestan
12-06-2006, 03:04
Im just curious, are you a marine mr. marksman?
Keruvalia
12-06-2006, 03:29
'Spray and Pray' noobs suck.
Infinite Revolution
12-06-2006, 03:30
Im just curious, are you a marine mr. marksman?
no he's a wannabe.
Dobbsworld
12-06-2006, 03:38
I'm still unconvinced he's nothing more than a thrill-seeking teen living vicariously through his life online.
DesignatedMarksman
12-06-2006, 03:53
Im just curious, are you a marine mr. marksman?


Nope.

Last year of college...
[NS]Liasia
12-06-2006, 03:56
Nope.

Last year of college...

Why are you going to colledge if you want to be a marine?
DesignatedMarksman
12-06-2006, 03:58
I'm still unconvinced he's nothing more than a thrill-seeking teen living vicariously through his life online.

You know Dobbsey, sometimes we take a break from wondering about me and worry about you! :D
DesignatedMarksman
12-06-2006, 04:03
Liasia']Why are you going to colledge if you want to be a marine?

Better pay, and it's what I'm doing now for later employment.

College=better pay, possible officer status. (Not sure if I could cut the mustard on physical requirements-they are HARD!)

ETA: And I would definetly like to expand my education while I can have it paid for. Marine Biology? I always loved Fish. Electrical Engineering? I've always built little tiny robots. The possibilities are endless.
The Nazz
12-06-2006, 04:45
What do you expect the Marines to say? They're going to be facing murder charges. Of course they're going to say they were following procedure. Duh. :rolleyes:
Frutap
12-06-2006, 04:49
What do you expect the Marines to say? They're going to be facing murder charges. Of course they're going to say they were following procedure. Duh. :rolleyes:

those are my brothers and sisters... so are you going to call us state sanctioned murderers.. i have heard it all...

I mean come on WE ARE MARINES

we don't need to kill civilians... why would we do that... What is in it for us except a court marshall and jail time

All during Basic training 12 weeks (13 if u count process) we are taught about honor and integrity and respect... that is it... no one ... not one of us.. would go throught 13 weeks at parris island (or the other one) to go to iraq and commit atrocities... really now
Dobbsworld
12-06-2006, 05:07
Such naivete would be endearing in many instances, but this isn't one of them.
The Nazz
12-06-2006, 05:10
those are my brothers and sisters... so are you going to call us state sanctioned murderers.. i have heard it all...

I mean come on WE ARE MARINES

we don't need to kill civilians... why would we do that... What is in it for us except a court marshall and jail time

All during Basic training 12 weeks (13 if u count process) we are taught about honor and integrity and respect... that is it... no one ... not one of us.. would go throught 13 weeks at parris island (or the other one) to go to iraq and commit atrocities... really now
Get one thing straight first, bub--I haven't called anyone a murderer in this deal yet and I don't plan on it until the courts-martial has done its work, so back off on the fucking accusatory tone.

My point--and it is the most valid one in this joke of a discussion in this thread--is that it would be pretty fucking stupid for Marines facing potential murder charges to say anything other than "we were following procedures." That's all they've got to try to save their asses right now, because if they say anything other than that, they are fucked, and their defense counsel knows it. If this were a civilian court, they wouldn't even be saying that much, but because it's the UCMJ, they have fewer options.

As to whether or not you would commit atrocities faced with the same situation, until you're there you don't know what the fuck you'd do. Don't say your training would save your ass because it hasn't helped other people caught in similar situations in the past. Atrocities happen on battlefields--there is no question about that. The early reports from Haditha suggest that this was one of those cases, but those are early reports, not final ones.

You may not believe this, being as I'm a liberal and all and the stereotype that lots of idiots around here have of liberals is that we hate the military and shit, but the fact is I'm way more sympathetic to the plight of those guys than most are. They're in a fucked up situation that they shouldn't be in right now, and wouldn't be in if the political leadership in the US had the slightest bit of conscience. That doesn't excuse those Marines if they committed atrocities, but it fucking well mitigates the situation somewhat.
Frutap
12-06-2006, 05:24
Get one thing straight first, bub--I haven't called anyone a murderer in this deal yet and I don't plan on it until the courts-martial has done its work, so back off on the fucking accusatory tone.

My point--and it is the most valid one in this joke of a discussion in this thread--is that it would be pretty fucking stupid for Marines facing potential murder charges to say anything other than "we were following procedures." That's all they've got to try to save their asses right now, because if they say anything other than that, they are fucked, and their defense counsel knows it. If this were a civilian court, they wouldn't even be saying that much, but because it's the UCMJ, they have fewer options.

As to whether or not you would commit atrocities faced with the same situation, until you're there you don't know what the fuck you'd do. Don't say your training would save your ass because it hasn't helped other people caught in similar situations in the past. Atrocities happen on battlefields--there is no question about that. The early reports from Haditha suggest that this was one of those cases, but those are early reports, not final ones.

You may not believe this, being as I'm a liberal and all and the stereotype that lots of idiots around here have of liberals is that we hate the military and shit, but the fact is I'm way more sympathetic to the plight of those guys than most are. They're in a fucked up situation that they shouldn't be in right now, and wouldn't be in if the political leadership in the US had the slightest bit of conscience. That doesn't excuse those Marines if they committed atrocities, but it fucking well mitigates the situation somewhat.

all i was saying is that i have heard it all...

And you go to basic training w/ a drill sgt on yor ass for 12 weeks... see how you feel about it....

there is no reason to use foul and vulgar language.. it makes your otherwise intellegent and resonable statement soud like idiocy.....
The Nazz
12-06-2006, 05:32
all i was saying is that i have heard it all...

And you go to basic training w/ a drill sgt on yor ass for 12 weeks... see how you feel about it....

there is no reason to use foul and vulgar language.. it makes your otherwise intellegent and resonable statement soud like idiocy.....
When it comes to shit like this, there is every reason to use foul and vulgar language, because we're talking about a foul and vulgar subject. You want people to use polite language, go to a tea party.
Frutap
12-06-2006, 05:40
When it comes to shit like this, there is every reason to use foul and vulgar language, because we're talking about a foul and vulgar subject. You want people to use polite language, go to a tea party.

you have
A) anger management issues
B) respect issues
and
C) respect issues

you have been all night reading my posts .. i know you have... and you know that i am not rude at all.. the least you could do is return the favor

our opinions differ.. you are a college student right?...

obviously you are smarter then me.. i graduated Highschool and joined the marines.. no higher education yet... so what do you gain from argueing with me?... to know that you make me feel like i am not worty of respect or praise ...

so i'm not in iraq.. i don't know what i would do ... but i sure do know i would not kill someone innocent.... not if my life depended on it... because i would not die with honor .. i would die a coward... and i do not want that to happen.. my Family would be devestated... my friends would too.. and i am not willing to do that... so no i don't know what i would have done... but not that... not on purpouse... not without a reason...

yes it is a vulgar topic.. one that we would rather not want to deal with ... but it is reality
The Nazz
12-06-2006, 05:58
you have
A) anger management issues
B) respect issues
and
C) respect issues

you have been all night reading my posts .. i know you have... and you know that i am not rude at all.. the least you could do is return the favor

our opinions differ.. you are a college student right?...

obviously you are smarter then me.. i graduated Highschool and joined the marines.. no higher education yet... so what do you gain from argueing with me?... to know that you make me feel like i am not worty of respect or praise ...

so i'm not in iraq.. i don't know what i would do ... but i sure do know i would not kill someone innocent.... not if my life depended on it... because i would not die with honor .. i would die a coward... and i do not want that to happen.. my Family would be devestated... my friends would too.. and i am not willing to do that... so no i don't know what i would have done... but not that... not on purpouse... not without a reason...

yes it is a vulgar topic.. one that we would rather not want to deal with ... but it is reality
Sigh.

My point is that until you are faced with that situation, you don't know how you'll react. At this point in time, you want to believe that you won't lose it, and maybe you won't, but right now, you don't know. I don't know how I would react, and I figure, based on the information above, that I'm very nearly twice your age (and I teach--not attend--college). Intelligence has nothing to do with this.

You have some very romantic notions of duty and honor and bravery, and I hope they serve you well if you're ever called upon to put them to the test. When it comes to this subject, yes, I have anger management issues, largely because there are cowards who are sending people like you into harm's way and they don't even have the decency to tell you why you're going there, and I hate that I can't stop them, and it makes me angry.

I use foul and vulgar language in those situations because that's the best way--not the only way, just the best way--for me to express the rage I feel at these people, and at those who blindly support them against every bit of evidence that they shouldn't. And for those people, frankly, I have no respect either, and I see no reason to express anything but disdain for them.
Frutap
12-06-2006, 06:15
Sigh.

My point is that until you are faced with that situation, you don't know how you'll react. At this point in time, you want to believe that you won't lose it, and maybe you won't, but right now, you don't know. I don't know how I would react, and I figure, based on the information above, that I'm very nearly twice your age (and I teach--not attend--college). Intelligence has nothing to do with this.

You have some very romantic notions of duty and honor and bravery, and I hope they serve you well if you're ever called upon to put them to the test. When it comes to this subject, yes, I have anger management issues, largely because there are cowards who are sending people like you into harm's way and they don't even have the decency to tell you why you're going there, and I hate that I can't stop them, and it makes me angry.

I use foul and vulgar language in those situations because that's the best way--not the only way, just the best way--for me to express the rage I feel at these people, and at those who blindly support them against every bit of evidence that they shouldn't. And for those people, frankly, I have no respect either, and I see no reason to express anything but disdain for them.

i would hope that my morales would stand up in that situation yes... and i do hope i and my broters and sisters need not be put in harms way for much longer.. but if ever i am called on i will serve faithfully and dutifully... and hope that i don't have a mental brakdown....

I hope that this is a false allegation.. truly i do ... I believe it is... but that may be a result of me wanting to believe that these ,marines have the same sense of patriotism anc valor as i .. and the rest of my graduating class did... it may be different after a while... after being sent there... but it is my faith in the corps perhaps that keeps me optimistic
Minkonio
12-06-2006, 06:39
Liasia']The truth as decided by.. marines?
That the Marines would actively attempt to cover up a horrific atrocity (if it actually is one) is a ridiculous assumption.

If they did try to cover it up, the media would be all over em', and they don't need that bad image being broadcast to the entire world. Also, you assume that all Marines would have the low morals to sink as low as to cover up a crime of their own comrades' doing. If you think all Marines are bastards, you can go fuck yourself.

Frankly, I would'nt be surprised if the insurgents actually packed them all into that room so that when the Marines came through, they'd be killed...Terrorists have a long history of atrocities attached to their names.

Of course, I would'nt mind if Marines were issued some flashbangs, so this type of thing would'nt happen again.
Neu Leonstein
12-06-2006, 06:59
Frankly, I would'nt be surprised if the insurgents actually packed them all into that room so that when the Marines came through, they'd be killed...Terrorists have a long history of atrocities attached to their names.
What room?

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,419701,00.html
You seem to be under the wrong impression. What they are accused of is not one room and a few shots in the wrong place - it is a killing spree spread across a whole neighbourhood, including people on the street, which went on for a considerable amount of time.
That info comes from sources within the military itself, which is notorious for being tight-lipped about pretty much everything until it is absolutely necessary. That the military even started an investigation is sign enough that it happened - they don't persecute members if they don't absolutely have to.
Minkonio
12-06-2006, 07:26
What room?

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,419701,00.html
You seem to be under the wrong impression. What they are accused of is not one room and a few shots in the wrong place - it is a killing spree spread across a whole neighbourhood, including people on the street, which went on for a considerable amount of time.
That info comes from sources within the military itself, which is notorious for being tight-lipped about pretty much everything until it is absolutely necessary. That the military even started an investigation is sign enough that it happened - they don't persecute members if they don't absolutely have to.
I was going by what the article in the OP said. It stated that most of the deaths occured when Marines "cleared" a single room in a house, killing about 15.(edit: actually, it appears to be two rooms in two different houses where most deaths occured...Still could very well have been a set-up.)

About the "would'nt investigate if not true.", that's just plain bullshit.

I will accept the verdict either way. If they are innocent they'll be released, if not...
Chellis
12-06-2006, 07:43
I think the funniest part is about it being "Standard procedure to shoot suspicious looking people fleeing away from a bombing"

So let me get that straight. I'm a 20 year old iraqi, just walking through my neighborhood with a couple friends. A car bomb goes off, and the americans around. Where there are americans, there are guns and gunfire.

We run, and the americans shoot us, because we are iraqi and are running away from a bombing.

I can excuse a lot of shit, but thats just dumb.
Minkonio
12-06-2006, 07:56
I think the funniest part is about it being "Standard procedure to shoot suspicious looking people fleeing away from a bombing"

So let me get that straight. I'm a 20 year old iraqi, just walking through my neighborhood with a couple friends. A car bomb goes off, and the americans around. Where there are americans, there are guns and gunfire.

We run, and the americans shoot us, because we are iraqi and are running away from a bombing.

I can excuse a lot of shit, but thats just dumb.
Not walking, driving..

Puckett said that while Wuterich was evaluating the scene, Marines noticed a white, unmarked car full of "military-aged men" lingering near the bomb site. When Marines ordered the men to stop, they ran; Puckett said it was standard procedure at the time for the Marines to shoot suspicious people fleeing a bombing, and the Marines opened fire, killing four or five men.
Seems like the thing to do in that situation...How did they know they were'nt there to ambush them? An unfortunate incident, but noones' fault, really (except the insurgents, of course).
Neu Leonstein
12-06-2006, 08:32
About the "would'nt investigate if not true.", that's just plain bullshit.
Militaries are by definition organisations that cover their own, and which will stand firm against any outside criticism. Particularly in the US, with this constant persecution complex and left v right bitchiness, any criticism from outside the military is reacted to overly harsh.
Unless they are pretty much forced to investigate something, they won't do it. The fact that the media found about what happened was the reason they started an investigation, not their own intentions.

Pretty much everything points towards this being exactly as Time Magazine reconstructed it in my above link. But feel free to cling to something else for the time being - as long as afterwards you acknowledge that there is something wrong with the culture of the Marine Corps.
Minkonio
12-06-2006, 08:42
Militaries are by definition organisations that cover their own, and which will stand firm against any outside criticism. Particularly in the US, with this constant persecution complex and left v right bitchiness, any criticism from outside the military is reacted to overly harsh.
Unless they are pretty much forced to investigate something, they won't do it. The fact that the media found about what happened was the reason they started an investigation, not their own intentions.
Two words: Abu-Ghraib Prosecutions.

Pretty much everything points towards this being exactly as Time Magazine reconstructed it in my above link. But feel free to cling to something else for the time being - as long as afterwards you acknowledge that there is something wrong with the culture of the Marine Corps.
Nice try. It did'nt say Time Magazine, it said "Spiegel"...And it is so obviously biased it is'nt even funny...Try again.
Neu Leonstein
12-06-2006, 09:02
Two words: Abu-Ghraib Prosecutions.
Granted, although it should be noted that the investigations were kept secret, and the Taguba report was also marked "secret" until later in the piece, when the NYT got a hold of a copy.
And a TV program about it was held back for weeks by order of the Pentagon. Suffice to say that it all doesn't exactly make for an example in transparity.

Nice try. It did'nt say Time Magazine, it said "Spiegel"...And it is so obviously biased it is'nt even funny...Try again.
Read much?
...They spent the next four hours terrorizing Haditha, randomly killing anyone unlucky enough to cross their paths. This, at least, is how news magazine Time reconstructed the incidents...
As for Spiegel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Spiegel)...it's most definitely not a leftist or anti-American magazine. But then, I suppose I should've gotten used to this constant accusing everything under the sun of being "teh liberalzorz!!11!1"
Minkonio
12-06-2006, 09:38
Read much?
How reliable were the witnesses? Not very good if the reconstruction of the event was put together with false or misleading info. Were the witnesses connected to insurgents in any way?

As for Spiegel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Spiegel)...it's most definitely not a leftist or anti-American magazine. But then, I suppose I should've gotten used to this constant accusing everything under the sun of being "teh liberalzorz!!11!1"
The rhetoric and biased writing in the article could've fooled me.

I have no horse in this race. All I want is a truthful outcome. If the Marines are found Guilty, punish them to the full extent of the law, I say.
The Nazz
12-06-2006, 13:23
Two words: Abu-Ghraib Prosecutions.

Which didn't begin until after the photos got out to the media, and even so have only resulted in the prosecutions of the people at the bottom. The higher-ups have covered for each other very effectively.
Deep Kimchi
12-06-2006, 13:25
Which didn't begin until after the photos got out to the media, and even so have only resulted in the prosecutions of the people at the bottom. The higher-ups have covered for each other very effectively.

Here's my question to you:

Obviously, at this point, battalion commanders have been relieved of duty, and it is very likely that they will be prosecuted.

Are you saying that these massacres were explicitly ordered as a matter of national policy by the President?
Neu Leonstein
12-06-2006, 13:39
How reliable were the witnesses? Not very good if the reconstruction of the event was put together with false or misleading info. Were the witnesses connected to insurgents in any way?
I'm afraid I have no idea. I suppose you'll have to rely on Times' journalists.
But the idea that the witnesses are connected to insurgents is pretty silly. It's not like everyone there is an insurgent - and if they were witnesses, I would've imagined they would probably have preferred to fight the Marines rather than look on and do nothing.

The rhetoric and biased writing in the article could've fooled me.
It's not exactly emotionless writing, that's true. But then, it is the most accurate description of the accusations I've found so far, and besides - they are pretty harsh accusations. One probably wouldn't do the gravity of the events justice by simply running down the numbers.
The Nazz
12-06-2006, 15:54
Here's my question to you:

Obviously, at this point, battalion commanders have been relieved of duty, and it is very likely that they will be prosecuted.

Are you saying that these massacres were explicitly ordered as a matter of national policy by the President?
At this point, I'm not even saying that the Marines involved are guilty. As I noted on the last page, the facts aren't in yet, and until the UCMJ weighs in, I don't feel qualified to make a judgment. Based on what has happened thus far, it doesn't look good for those Marines, or for those battalion commanders.

Your question is ludicrous, however. No one, to my knowledge, has suggested that what happened at Haditha was like Abu Ghraib in the sense that it was ordered from higher up. The story has pretty much been that some Marines lost it in the heat of an exchange, and that their commanders tried to hush it up.

But there was, and continues to be, much evidence that the abusive treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib (and Guantanamo and Baghram among others) was ordered from higher up, from at least the Brigadier General level, if not higher.
Chellis
13-06-2006, 02:48
Not walking, driving.

No, walking...

Marines noticed a white, unmarked car full of "military-aged men" lingering near the bomb site. When Marines ordered the men to stop, they ran; Puckett said it was standard procedure at the time for the Marines to shoot suspicious people fleeing a bombing, and the Marines opened fire, killing four or five men.

Iraqis in the Haditha neighborhood interviewed in recent weeks said the vehicle was a taxi carrying a group of students to their homes and that the driver tried to back away from the site, fleeing in fear. One account said that the Marines shot the men while they were still in the car.

Why would it be one account that said that, if the marines were saying they were driving away? Every account then would say they were still in the car. They were running, on foot, not driving.
The South Islands
13-06-2006, 02:53
I would trust a Marine about as far as I could throw one.
Gauthier
13-06-2006, 02:58
Only going to be two possible outcomes here.

Either the Marines will all be acquitted of murder, or if they can't cover their asses completely, it'll be the classic case of Brass Fly Grunts Fry.
[NS]Liasia
13-06-2006, 03:01
That the Marines would actively attempt to cover up a horrific atrocity (if it actually is one) is a ridiculous assumption.

If they did try to cover it up, the media would be all over em', and they don't need that bad image being broadcast to the entire world. Also, you assume that all Marines would have the low morals to sink as low as to cover up a crime of their own comrades' doing. If you think all Marines are bastards, you can go fuck yourself.
I'm not saying ALL marines would be evil, but i am saying they aren't all saints. If you think every member of the military is a paradigm of moral supremacy, you can go fuck yourself. The media... meh. I wouldn't rely on them, dude.

Frankly, I would'nt be surprised if the insurgents actually packed them all into that room so that when the Marines came through, they'd be killed...Terrorists have a long history of atrocities attached to their names.
Yes, the terrorists are to blame for US trigger-happiness.
Only n00bs spray and pray.