NationStates Jolt Archive

Should Britain become "more European"?

Should it intergrate more into the EU, join single currency, or should it strengthen ties with America, or something else? Vote, say why. I think we should strengthen EU ties. It doesn't mean we have to break off with the US, but I think we have gone that way for too long - we should really focus on the EU.

No.

"ever closer union"

*nods*

I'm more a fan of co-operation than integration (frequent meetings between governments to discuss ideas for joint policies, but not legally binding). I don't think joinging the Euro is a good idea until there is greater harmony between European economies. Though it has the advantage that it doesn't have the Queen's head on it.

They're pissy.

Not for the sake of it, no. Only if we gain something out of it. I'm not a particularly cold person, but if there's no point in integrating closer with europe, or more negatives to the positives, why waste the time? It's not as if we're particularly BLOCKED from interacting with them, after all.

Strengthen economic ties with the Commonwealth.

Britain isn't European! How much land mass of Britain is connected to the European continent, huh? NOTHING! And culturally? They're driving on the LEFT side of the road! Can you believe it? So there you see...

...

Oh. Wrong thread. Sorry, sorry.
*flees*

Britain isn't European! How much land mass of Britain is connected to the European continent, huh?
Just 'cause we're an island doens't mean we're not geographically part of Europe. That's like saying Long Island isn't part of North America.

I just think that we are becoming a little isolated by Eurosceptics and USsceptics (do we have a word for that?) I think we have more to gain from the rest of Europe, and integration is important for our role internationally.

Also, its unfair to say that we are culturally alien just because we are an island - anyone can take a ferry/train/plane to the continent, and thats like saying that Copenhagen alien from the rest of Denmark, or that the Florida keys aren't in America. Britain shares massive amounts of historty with the rest of Europe, its no different from France and Spain, or Germany and Italy

Though it has the advantage that it doesn't have the Queen's head on it.

Oh, but it will have the queen's head on it.

At least, all the british ones will.

USsceptics (do we have a word for that?)
As the default position, I don't think it has a name. :-)

Oh, but it will have the queen's head on it.

At least, all the british ones will.
I thought of that just after posting. I'll have to hop over the Channel and stock up on French ones.

I thought of that just after posting. I'll have to hop over the Channel and stock up on French ones.

I have to say, the French ones are neat.

The Belgian and Dutch are so utterly boring. Kings and Queens are really seriously boring to have on a coin. There are a number of others that are boring too.

Germany, well... it's not that great compared to France. Really, I'd have to say that France is probably the best Euro coin :D

Not for the sake of it, no. Only if we gain something out of it. I'm not a particularly cold person, but if there's no point in integrating closer with europe, or more negatives to the positives, why waste the time? It's not as if we're particularly BLOCKED from interacting with them, after all.
question is whether you mean long- or short-term benefits to britain, and where you draw the line of that. and also what you consider to be benefits - just economic or social and political too? i for one would like to see, with integration, a move to more socialisation of the british economy to a continental or hybrid-scandinavian approach, and would see that as a benefit - but some would see that, of course, as a disbenefit. seeing how its all so subjective, its tough to say... *shrugs*

Just 'cause we're an island doens't mean we're not geographically part of Europe. That's like saying Long Island isn't part of North America.

In what way is Europe a genuine geographical concept? It's far more accurate to say that we are part of Eurasia. "Europe" is nothing more than a term to describe post-Christian Christendom, not a strong basis for surrendering our independence.

Britain has always been different from the rest of Europe. In many ways - they're more like Americans than Europeans (actually Americans are basically transplanted Brits). Nonetheless, Britain is part of Europe and not North America so strengthening ties with the EU while keeping it's independent state of mind is the best way to go. Sorry if that was a run-on sentence.

question is whether you mean long- or short-term benefits to britain, and where you draw the line of that. and also what you consider to be benefits - just economic or social and political too? i for one would like to see, with integration, a move to more socialisation of the british economy to a continental or hybrid-scandinavian approach, and would see that as a benefit - but some would see that, of course, as a disbenefit. seeing how its all so subjective, its tough to say... *shrugs*

I tend to see benefits as a general increase in the standard of living for all (or the vast majority, all being impossible). For example, I would never advocate an american-style economy, because I don't think it has enough of a safety net for unfortunate people at the bottom.

Like you say, it's all subjective, hence why I tried not to move my statement out of opinion. I'm not AGAINST integration, just not for no reason.

Britain has always been different from the rest of Europe.
How so?

What does Britain have to gain from European integration? If all the world were a free trade area, absolutely nothing. THE EU as it is is more a customs union than a free-trade area, so it would be in our best interests to leave and sign a free-trade agreement, except that once free from the EU we'd be able to sign them with any number of countries.

I say closer ties (possibly even a weak confederation) but no way based on the corrupt, ineffectual, sinecureal gravy-train that is the EU.

I tend to see benefits as a general increase in the standard of living for all (or the vast majority, all being impossible). For example, I would never advocate an american-style economy, because I don't think it has enough of a safety net for unfortunate people at the bottom.

Like you say, it's all subjective, hence why I tried not to move my statement out of opinion. I'm not AGAINST integration, just not for no reason.
hey don't worry - wasn't attacking your statement at all... just qualifying it a little or something. i don't really know - its too hot to think :P

however, i agree with you there :)

I say closer ties (possibly even a weak confederation) but no way based on the corrupt, ineffectual, sinecureal gravy-train that is the EU.

Too true, it needs a complete overhaul, hopefully to bring about a stronger union. But everyone needs to play a serious role and stop all this protectionist crap.

Britain isn't European! How much land mass of Britain is connected to the European continent, huh? NOTHING! And culturally? They're driving on the LEFT side of the road! Can you believe it? So there you see...

...

Oh. Wrong thread. Sorry, sorry.
*flees*
Technically, there isn't a "European continent". There is a continental land mass known as "Eurasia", but to separate it into "Europe" and "Asia" one must ignore basic geography and draw a purely arbitrary dividing line. So arguments from geography aren't particularly useful.

Of course, there are different European and Asian cultural groupings. If one goes by culture, Great Britain is firmly European, driving habits notwithstanding.

One could also make the argument that geographic proximity and cultural similarity are neither necessary nor sufficient grounds for political integration.

What does Britain have to gain from European integration? If all the world were a free trade area, absolutely nothing. THE EU as it is is more a customs union than a free-trade area, so it would be in our best interests to leave and sign a free-trade agreement, except that once free from the EU we'd be able to sign them with any number of countries.

People are not stupid.

If you import a lot of goods cheaper than the rest of the EU, then the rest of the EU would put customs on Britain or they themselves would reduce customs.

People are not stupid.

If you import a lot of goods cheaper than the rest of the EU, then the rest of the EU would put customs on Britain or they themselves would reduce customs.

That would be their loss, how does Britain lose? Being a part of NAFTA would easily make up for any potential loss of trade with Europe.

Britains ties with the world are fine as they are, though a lil more distance from america wouldn't hurt. Also Britain wouldn't do well being closer to the EU due to the way many in Britain see the continentals and the way they see us. In other words we need a third option, maybe closer ties with the commonwealth?

How so?
Under the Roman Empire, Britain was regarded as a very mysterious land often storied with tales of mystical realms and other garbage. Rome also had trouble invading and settling Britain as well - leaving it disconnected from most other provinces. Also, Britain is the only former Roman province that doesn't speak a Romance language or a language descended from pre-Roman inhabitants.

Skip ahead so many years and we had a lot of conflict in Europe during the Imperialism days. There was a lot of fighting between European powers and overseas in the colonies as well. Britain was often found in the middle of the fight.

Skip ahead so many years and we still have Britain disconnected from the EU. Different currency, different policies, different relations.

Britains ties with the world are fine as they are, though a lil more distance from america wouldn't hurt. Also Britain wouldn't do well being closer to the EU due to the way many in Britain see the continentals and the way they see us. In other words we need a third option, maybe closer ties with the commonwealth?

Or what about neutral independence? We could become a bigger better Switzerland!

Americans are basically transplanted Brits

Well, that may have been true during the colonial period, but the modern nations and people are very different. Personally, I'd like to see a stronger cultural exchange between the two nations, but not at the expense of either one's individuality. That is to say, they could gain a lot by working together and listening to one another (listening is the key word for the Americans,) but Britain should remain as uniquely British, and the US should stay uniquely American.

Strengthen economic ties with the Commonwealth.

Thats a much better idea than becoming a satelite of the USA or closer european ties with a massive CAP spend.

Making greater use of commonwealth trading would save the UK a fortune on farming subsidies for France, and we wouldn't be disadvantaged by having to bend over and take it from the US. (Confidential info from Menwith hill going to large US corporations anyone?)

Ah yes cept the switz are in an organisation with some scandinavian countries which arn't in the EU.... i think....don't quote me on that

Ah yes cept the switz are in an organisation with some scandinavian countries which arn't in the EU.... i think....don't quote me on that

It's called the EFTA (European Free Trade Association). It is only concerned with free trade, and allows access to EU markets without paying for the costs of running the swollen EU bureaucracy. Britain used to be a member, until Ted Heath (possibly Britain's worst 20th century Prime minister) got us in by lying to the public about the project's final aim.

Making greater use of commonwealth trading would save the UK a fortune on farming subsidies for France, and we wouldn't be disadvantaged by having to bend over and take it from the US. (Confidential info from Menwith hill going to large US corporations anyone?)
Canada has a lot to provide ;)

Under the Roman Empire, Britain was regarded as a very mysterious land often storied with tales of mystical realms and other garbage. Rome also had trouble invading and settling Britain as well - leaving it disconnected from most other provinces. Also, Britain is the only former Roman province that doesn't speak a Romance language or a language descended from pre-Roman inhabitants.

OK, but that was 2000+ years ago, and back then there was no Eurostar/Ryanair/Steamships or whatever. My point is that the only reason Britain was disconnected was because it was so far from the centre of the empire i.e. Rome


Skip ahead so many years and we had a lot of conflict in Europe during the Imperialism days. There was a lot of fighting between European powers and overseas in the colonies as well. Britain was often found in the middle of the fight.

Therefore we do share history and culture - we were a European power. How does that make us different?


Skip ahead so many years and we still have Britain disconnected from the EU. Different currency, different policies, different relations.

Hence the poll.

OK, but that was 2000+ years ago, and back then there was no Eurostar/Ryanair/Steamships or whatever. My point is that the only reason Britain was disconnected was because it was so far from the centre of the empire i.e. Rome



Therefore we do share history and culture - we were a European power. How does that make us different?



Hence the poll.

In what way were we a European power? It would be better to describe pre-19124 as a global power, with particularly large holdings in North America, Africa, the subcontinent and Australia.

OK, but that was 2000+ years ago, and back then there was no Eurostar/Ryanair/Steamships or whatever. My point is that the only reason Britain was disconnected was because it was so far from the centre of the empire i.e. Rome
Well my point was that Britain has always been historically disconnected from Europe. Those roots extend pretty far.

Therefore we do share history and culture - we were a European power. How does that make us different?
If that's what you call sharing history and culture, then I don't regard being at odds with one another a good thing. The fact that each European power's culture and history was different was partly the reason why there were so many conflicts.

Most countries in Europe have been at war with one another at some time or another, doesnt mean that they are disconnected. Take France and Spain. Anyway, in AD years, we really have been involved. We have always had European links. Royals often married internationally. The Windsors are German even. Its just not true to say we have always been disconnected.

If that's what you call sharing history and culture, then I don't regard being at odds with one another a good thing. The fact that each European power's culture and history was different was partly the reason why there were so many conflicts.

By that logic Britain wouldn't be the only isolated country. Germany and France would be just as different, or Italy and Spain, yet they're not considered on the fringes of Europe.

I always got the impression from our neighbours over in the mainland that we weren't particularly welcome in the EU, given the French's move to try and block our entry into the Union back in the 1970's.

I do like the idea of strengthening ties with the Commonwealth Countries, and as I'm pro American, the current state of play between the two countries is fine enough for me. As for Europe, I think we should leave them to it, although I am by no means opposed to a more "involved" relationship with the EU.

Strengthen ties with everybody at the same time. Economic integration is good for everybody!

If its between strengthening ties between the US or with the EU, I would say Britain should strengthen ties with the EU. The US is on the decline at least as far as the economy and somewhat of a reckless foreign policy. The EU on the other hand is the opposite.

Join EU
Dump Monarchy
Change name to West France

Join EU
Dump Monarchy
Change name to West France

NEVER!
RULE BRITANIA!!!

NEVER!
RULE BRITANIA!!!

Our magnificant empire, which consists of a rock on the tip of Spain and a few islands in the South Atlantic. :rolleyes:

In what way is Europe a genuine geographical concept? It's far more accurate to say that we are part of Eurasia.
It's the area of Eurasia West of the Urals. Why don't we have Eurafricasia? 'Cause we like to divide thinks up into nice sized chunks. Otherwise we'd only have three huge continents (four if you count Australia).

I think Britain should move back to being a sovereign country with strong bilateral ties with the US, the European states (not just those in the EU) and the Commonwealth. Why is this not an option?

Join EU
Dump Monarchy
Change name to West France


sometimes that is tempting, i love french dressing, dislike monarchy!

i love french dressing
And don't forget the kissing.

The US is hardly a declining power. It would be in Britain's best interest to keep its policy where it is right now, as the bridge between Europe and the U.S. There is a great deal of world / economic influence to the advantage of Britons in their position. The EU is dominated by France and Germany and they are not going allow Britain the same influence that England enjoys now.

(To Molson Park: I prefer to think of the Canadians as the transplanted Brits - the USA went wrong somewhere...)

I do think we have a responsibility to develope trading relations with the Commonwealth, we owe them that after we conquered them. Britain can still be a decent role-model for developement for these countries.

The problem with the Commonwealth however is that it is very uneven, with the exception of Canada and the Antipodes the Commonwealth nations are all developing, which means that our respective marketplaces have a demand for completely different things. The "African brand" is simply not worth as much to a Briton as the French or Italian brand - and British products would be too pricey for their markets.

So the solution is for increased integration with Europe. The European economies, people and products are much more similar - and thus much easier to trade between eachother. However, we should never let the EU dictate to us unfair trade conditions with the developing Commonwealth.

The US is hardly a declining power. It would be in Britain's best interest to keep its policy where it is right now, as the bridge between Europe and the U.S. There is a great deal of world / economic influence to the advantage of Britons in their position. The EU is dominated by France and Germany and they are not going allow Britain the same influence that England enjoys now.

The problem is that Britain is integrating further and further into the EU and ignoring the US more and more. I would like to see us leave the EU entirely. Japan can survive and, indeed, be the 2nd largest economy in the world without being in a supernational "bloc" so I see no reason Britain can't.

Concerning the title: duh! Please U.K., don't use euros, keep with the pound!

The British are so fucked up they have to do everything differently than any other european nation ( "because they live on an island" ). I know, I've lived there for 5 long years of my precious life. On top of that, their multicultural society is nothing else but a rubbish bin of Europe. They are naff, spoilt, undereducated ( it takes less time to study anything there than anywhere else ) and cocky. They drink too much, british chicks are easiest in the world ( also they have largest bottoms ) and everything that Britain represents is built on centuries of oppressing other nations. They have the best sense of humour though....



:headbang:

Try living here your entire life.

THEN you can complain....;)

Strengthen EU ties! Stand together with our ancient neighbours!

The only thing I have against the Euro is that it looks really boring compared to the Pound.

Strengthen EU ties! Stand together with our ancient neighbours!

The only thing I have against the Euro is that it looks really boring compared to the Pound.
And that it's caused the Eurozone economies to show abysmal growth rates, but no one seems to care about that...

Only two things to say :

- Britain in roman empire's time isn't Britain in modern time, cause :

Neither Angle and Saxons nor Normands weren't arrived in the island which was occupied by bretons and other celt people who were invaded by angle and saxon and forced to move in Brittany.

- Britain, for the conquest by William 1st is an european power with european goals (War of 100 years, war against Louis XIV and overall against Napoleon for instance) as Britain for middle age has always wanted the first place in Europe (and after in the world)

So, saying Britain was always disconnected is an historical mistake.

Britain shuld stay where it is, any more Eurpoean and we will get caught up in a load of new jobs laws, plus we wuld hav to use Euros. On top of that we wuld then have to let in Eastern Immigrants legally, instead of being able to turn them away when they get to the borders.
Any more US and we wuld get shitted on by the Europeans because we be accussed of abandoning them. We wuld lose loads of trade and be universally hated.
Strenghting ties with the Commonwealth would be a good idea because they were originally British Colonies, and probably most of the population in those countries is Half British anyway(exceot Australia which is pretty much wholly British, its just they wer crims instead of real citizens to begin with)

The whole concept of the EU was dreamed up as a way of binding France and Germany together economically and politically so that the Germans wouldn't invade France again (by the logic of keep your freinds close and your enemies closer).

Britain bankrupted herself playing the role of the policeman of Europe. Income Tax was introduced as a measure to fund the Napoleonic wars. Britin would be far better concentrating on its links with the commonwealth perhaps by forming a free-trade bloc with Canada, Oz, NZ etc

Interesting poll...but what kind of a poll title is that, " Is Britain European " ???

Anyway I´d prefer Britain to strenghten US ties. I admire Britain too much to see it otherwise.

Britain is a member of the EU, so it should become more European.
Because that's the concept of the EU TODAY.

UK is in the Kennedy Round then shoukld be the 51 states of US colonies.

I think Britain should support its commonwealth countries a bit more, instead of just near-abandoning them like it has.. by doing that for the EU it destroyed the economies of many African nations, its time for the 'mother country' to get some trade going with its 'colonies'.. heh.

But seeing as that isn't an option.. It should go on doing as it is, why would it strengthen ties with the US? That would be stupid.

I think Britain should support its commonwealth countries a bit more, instead of just near-abandoning them like it has..

Agreed Britain should strengthen her ties with democratic commonwealth countries that are struggling to develop stable infrastructure and should help them out.

Strasbourg: one angry mule's kick away.
Washington: too far away.

What I don't understand about both sides in this massive false dillemma debate is why everyone seems to think that an indepedent Britain is not a viable proposition, and so we must "integrate" into another country/pseudo-supranational-statelike-assembly. Britain is the second richest nation in the world by GNP. We have arguably the second most powerful military, although Labour is erroding that. We also have a good education system. Britain can be powerful alone, and whilst bilateral ties with the European, American and Commonwealth countries are good, straight "integration" is unnecessary, damaging and deeply worrying. I don't want to be an American, I don't want to be a "European" (whatever that means), I want to be British.

Britian must join a reformed and federalised EU in order to form a power block that can rival CHINA, USA, India and Russia, a fragmented Europe cannot hope to compete with these giants

I like the idea of creating another block of cooperative states under the commonwelath, but this will never happne, because Britian is too embarrassed as the Commonwealth reminds her of her imperial past.

Personally i´m all for a United Europe, with the Queen as head of state, the government located at Westminster, and the pound as the only legal currency.

Luckily for Europe, I have no say in policy :)

Britian must join a reformed and federalised EU in order to form a power block that can rival CHINA, USA, India and Russia, a fragmented Europe cannot hope to compete with these giants
Britain alone is richer than India and several times richer than Russia. China is only barely richer than Britain. If you use GNP rather than GDP, Britain is considerably richer than China. Then again, why does it actually matter? Britain has nuclear weapons - her interests are not under threat. I would rather have sovereignty than the theoretically ability to fight a meaningless war against China.

Im sick of Britian sucking up the US, and the US loving every minute of it, lets move away from the transatlantic partnership and jopin our european cousins or inject life into the commonwealth

Im sick of Britian sucking up the US, and the US loving every minute of it, lets move away from the transatlantic partnership and jopin our european cousins or inject life into the commonwealth
So instead of being pushed around by the Americans we'll be pushed around by the Franco-Germans? At least we share common interests with the Americans.

So instead of being pushed around by the Americans we'll be pushed around by the Franco-Germans? At least we share common interests with the Americans.


Morale of the story: if you have to be maternally fiddlesticked, you might as well get maternally fiddlesticked by someone you like.

*shrug*
Does make sense.

Morale of the story: if you have to be maternally fiddlesticked, you might as well get maternally fiddlesticked by someone you like.

*shrug*
Does make sense.
The Germans and French do not "like" us. The only reason everyone seems to hate America is because of the rabid anti-Americanism in our press. We have the same kind of economy as the Americans - stark contrast to the heavily socialised, creeking wrecks of economies the Germans and French have. We have common heritage, whilst our common heritage with the French and Germans has largely been fighting each other and playing one off against the other for power. It's a myth to think that the French and Germans are our "friends" - they're using the EU to get one up over us constantly, you just never hear about it because no one is anywhere near as interested in the workings of the EU as they are interested in Iraq, even though the former has a much greater effect over Britain.

And again, we don't have to be "maternally fiddlesitkced", only if choose to "integrate" into someone elses country/union, which I really see no need to do.

The Germans and French do not "like" us. The only reason everyone seems to hate America is because of the rapid anti-Americanism in our press. We have the same kind of economy as the Americans - stark contrast to the heavily socialised, creeking wrecks of economies the Germans and French have. We have common heritage, whilst our common heritage with the French and Germans has largely been fighting each other and playing one off against the other for power. It's a myth to think that the French and Germans are our "friends" - they're using the EU to get one up over us constantly, you just never hear about it because no one is anywhere near as interested in the workings of the EU as they are interested in Iraq, even though the former has a much greater effect over Britain.


I'm about as Britanic as you are, and I say you're wrong.

I'm about as Britanic as you are, and I say you're wrong.
Generally something a little more substantial than "You're wrong. Because I say you are." is required to convince someone of something. Then again, if you want Britain to absorb itself into a Franco-German centric EU I hardly see how you can describe yourself as "britannic".

Generally something a little more substantial than "You're wrong. Because I say you are." is required to convince someone of something. Then again, if you want Britain to absorb itself into a Franco-German centric EU I hardly see how you can describe yourself as "britannic".


Within the framework of the special cross-pond-connection, our only option is to be followers. No attraction in that.

I say we demand our fair share of influence, and yield our fair share of influence, and wield our fiar share on influence.
But we don't behave like a good member in standing of the Schutz und Trutze - and don't get treated like one.

We behave like a bunch of immigrants who keep going to their own little institutions, stick to their own little circle, and generally refuse to be focussed on assimilation - and then act surprised when we get dissed.

Given a choice, I´d much rather be in the European empire than the American one. I´d prefer that the UK just said sod it and went the way of the Swiss but that´s not likely to happen.

America has already proven it has one law for itself, one for it´s allies, and one for the rest of the world.

Would be nice not to have to travel off to foreign lands every four years due to an American president requiring a few extra percentage points to remain in power.

Having seen some of the arguments I think the most appealing is the "Commonwealth Block" idea because If we joined a Unified Europe we would have almost no say in what happens to our own country and If we joined America we would be hated for the next upcoming wars.

Why not form a Block with some of Africa, the Caribbean, Australia, New Zealand and Canada.

How does a European country populated by European people with a European cutlure become "more" European?

We behave like a bunch of immigrants who keep going to their own little institutions, stick to their own little circle, and generally refuse to be focussed on assimilation - and then act surprised when we get dissed.
So you're saying that we're being selfish for refusing to integrate into the culture of a different country that we are not in? Sorry, but what the fuck?

Britain's true strength lies in colonialism. Therefore they should get a space program rolling and colonise the moon.

So you're saying that we're being selfish for refusing to integrate into the culture of a different country that we are not in? Sorry, but what the fuck?

I wouldn't say selfish.
I'd say... stupid.

It ain't the culture of another country, it's the culture of Europe.
And furthermore, the Institutions of Europe.
The Europe that we live in.

PS: the word 'culture' is yours, not mine.

There's no such thing as "European culture"; no such thing as European institutions (well, the EU maybe, but not all European states are members, and the EU is one of the most woefully undemocratic institutions in existance).

Britain should join Mercosul/Mercosur (on the basis of ownership of the Falklands). Britain can provide the technical knowhow and such like while the other member states provide raw materials, labour pools and markets. It would be good for all involved. :)

Why did we cut economic ties with the Commonwealth in the first place?

So we could join the EU?

Why did we join the EU?

Because we liked the idea of free trade.

Why do we like the idea of Free trade?

Because it is a uniquely Anglo ideal, along with many ideals such as "Innocent until proven guilty" verses "Innocent until proven guilty".

Surely in the 21st Century, we are allowed to trade freely with other countries for things such as staple foods and clothing?

No.

Why not?

Because the EU says we can't........

But isn't the EU for free trade?

Thats what we were told..............

Thanks for all the comments

Sorry about the crappy poll title, by the way, this was originally intended for something else, and about the crappy poll which clearly should've included a commonwealth option

The idea of strengthening commonwealth ties is an interesting one, but the only strong economy in the commonwealth that we could gain more from is India, and when they develop i think they would be far more interested in trading with the EU as a whole.

I am pro-Europe, only because i think that union with EU is the best way to preserve our economic status - altogether Europe has the potential to be much stronger, but it does need chage...

I have to say, the French ones are neat.

The Belgian and Dutch are so utterly boring. Kings and Queens are really seriously boring to have on a coin. There are a number of others that are boring too.

Germany, well... it's not that great compared to France. Really, I'd have to say that France is probably the best Euro coin :D

Best currency: Swiss Franc.

Real nice heavy feel to it.

How does a European country populated by European people with a European cutlure become "more" European?

start talking french, making wine and eating amphibians.

*shudder*

thank god for the Iron Duke at Waterloo

How many times has the UK saved Europes Rear Bottom? from Napolian to Hitler. hehehe well bit short really my arguement has surpassed it's sell by date.

i think it's just a conspiracy theory! New World order kinda thing, globalisation. unable to buy or sell things because it's so globalised that it dosnt cost to buy or sell stocks or anything! kinda like what it says in the Book of Revelations and the Four horned Best rising out of the ground kinda stuff i.e Globalisation and bringing together a united world under one Leader, then someone assasinates him but he lives cus the devil makes him lives and all that stuff it's in the book of Revelations!

From an economic standpoint joining the eu at present would most likely cripple our economy .
From an historical standpoint what was the point of all the sodding wars if we give up our soverenty now .
From a feeling guilty becouse our forfathers onces ruled a third of the planet standpoint we should do more with the commonwealth nations seeing as we put most of them in the position their in economically today ( ie up shit creek)

What we need to do is sort out the mess that is britian first and once thats been sorted , sort out what sort of future we want .
Do we want to be Amercians freind or her bitch. Do we want to be at the centre of europe , pissed on by europe or just mates with europe .
Do we belive ( hoping we get a government thats not full of crap) we can survive as a single nation or the only way forward is to intergrate into a artificial economic power bloc .

The main thing is that following democratic principles ( ie any one no matter how stupid gets to vote ) we the people of britian get to decide and not have our oh so wonderfull governemt do it without giving us the choice .

If the EU reforms into a confederal, Swiss-like union, Britain should stay. If not, it should reform the Commonwealth (Canada, Australia, NZ and potentially South Africa) into an economic union. It would be better off that way.

Yes.

European ethnic groups

I. Altaïc

Mongol
Turkic

II. Caucasian

III. Euskadian

IV. Finn-Ugric

• Balto-Finnic
• Lappic
• Permian
• Samoyedic
• Ugric
• Volga

V. Indo-European

• Baltic (Lithuanians, Latvian…)
• Celtic (Brythonic) (Breton, Welsh)
• Celtic (Goidelic) (Irish)
• Germanic (N) (Swedish, Danish…)
• Germanic (W) Continental (German, Luxembourgian, Saxon…)
• Germanic (W) North-Sea (English)
• Indian (Rom)
• Greek
• Italic (Gallo-Romance) (Catalan, French, Gallo, Occitan…)
• Italic (Ibero-Romance) (Asturian, Galician, Leonese, Portuguese, Spanish…)
• Italic (Italo-Romance) (Italian, Sicilian)
• Italic (Other Romance) (Corsicans, Romanians, Moldavians…)
• Slavic (E) (Russian, Belorussians, Ukrainians…)
• Slavic (S) (Bulgarian, Macedonians, Serbs, Croats…)
• Slavic (W) (Czech, Sorbian, Polish…)


Etnical speaking : Britain is in Europe. Economically speaking, France or Germany (germany is richer than UK) could also leave EU, like all the other states (except the new members of course). Geographically, Britain is in Europe. And now if someone can tell me why Britain is less European than another state....

Closer union. I like croissaints and german beer, and the more i can get the better.

[b]There's no such thing as "European culture"; [b]no such thing as European institutions (well, the EU maybe, but not all European states are members, and the EU is one of the most woefully undemocratic institutions in existance).


So you just burned your own strawman, eh?
Excellent :D

Stop biatching, and focus on being good little boys.
The EIB, EP, And the rest of the lot does exist.

How many times has the UK saved Europes Rear Bottom? from Napolian to Hitler.

Where have you seen Uk saved Europe of Napoleon ??? They saved their own *** ! UK paid Russians and Austrians to they declare war to French Empire because Napoleon was preparing the invasion of UK and because France was the first power in Europe. It caused the Battle of Austerlitz and the victory of Napoleon. Then, when all the Europe fought Napoleon and destoyed his army, English arrived finally to take the victory for themself. But it was not to save Europe but to become the first power in the world...

So you just burned your own strawman, eh?
Excellent :D
"Insitutions" does not just mean government. The EU is only a government.

Saying that there is no European culture is not a strawman. Europe consists of a collection of cultures. The idea that there is a "European culture" is an artificial construct created by the European Union to try to convince people that allowing their countries to be absorbed into a tyrannical bureaucracy is a good idea.

"Insitutions" does not just mean government. The EU is only a government.

Saying that there is no European culture is not a strawman. Europe consists of a collection of cultures. The idea that there is a "European culture" is an artificial construct created by the European Union to try to convince people that allowing their countries to be absorbed into a tyrannical bureaucracy is a good idea.

Long story cut short.
There is a european government, according to your own statement.

So I suggest you start being focussed on obeying it.