NationStates Jolt Archive

Would you live in a police state, granted the following:

You had a number of rights. Lets say most of the rights granted in the bill of rights that don't have to do with voting or the leaders, but the inherent rights of the people. Also, other rights like the right to have an abortion, and a few others.

These rights can and will never be taken away. Ever. No matter what. You will never be forced to give up your guns, your right to believe in god or not, to peacefully assemble, etc.

However, the government can always see what you and everyone else is doing. They will never use it for obscene purposes, like to blackmail you or take you out for politically incorrect beliefs. They will only use it to look for crime. And when they find crime, they punish it hard.

Crime, as a result, will nearly die out, and you still get your important rights. The rights you don't have is to a fair trial, and other things doing with arrest. This is because the government is assured to only ever arrest people they think are criminals, based on constant surveillance of every person at all times, and a judge will rule on it as soon as he has time.

Basically, a libertarian society where you can do whatever you want thats not illegal(lets say american laws for now), but if you break any law, you will get caught and you will get punished(of course, if you have a clean record and its an accident, you will probably only get a warning).

Would you live in this society?

No. I'm an idealist so no.

Well? I don't know as I haven't been faced with the posibility.

I visted Singapore once and it's rather totalitarian. I wandered the streets at night and didn't think I would be mugged.

Try that in some major US cities like New York, Chicago, and Detroit.....

Would you live in a police state, granted the following:

You had a number of rights. Lets say most of the rights granted in the bill of rights that don't have to do with voting or the leaders, but the inherent rights of the people. Also, other rights like the right to have an abortion, and a few others.

These rights can and will never be taken away. Ever. No matter what. You will never be forced to give up your guns, your right to believe in god or not, to peacefully assemble, etc.

However, the government can always see what you and everyone else is doing. They will never use it for obscene purposes, like to blackmail you or take you out for politically incorrect beliefs. They will only use it to look for crime. And when they find crime, they punish it hard.

Crime, as a result, will nearly die out, and you still get your important rights. The rights you don't have is to a fair trial, and other things doing with arrest. This is because the government is assured to only ever arrest people they think are criminals, based on constant surveillance of every person at all times, and a judge will rule on it as soon as he has time.

Basically, a libertarian society where you can do whatever you want thats not illegal(lets say american laws for now), but if you break any law, you will get caught and you will get punished(of course, if you have a clean record and its an accident, you will probably only get a warning).

Would you live in this society?


No . You cant trust the government to do the right thing . I would be in the mountains with the rest of the people shooting at this govenment.
I have the right to be considered innocent and the rights guaranteed me under the fouth ammendment . In short I have the right NOT to be watched by anyone without just cause .

No . You cant trust the government to do the right thing . I would be in the mountains with the rest of the people shooting at this govenment.
I have the right to be considered innocent and the rights guaranteed me under the fouth ammendment . In short I have the right NOT to be watched by anyone without just cause .

But I'm saying in a hypothetical situation where you know for a fact the government won't misbehave.

But I'm saying in a hypothetical situation where you know for a fact the government won't misbehave.

There's always at least some corruption in a government,no matter that hypothetical situation your in.Power always tends to bring corruption,because people become over confident.

Would you live in a police state, granted the following:

You had a number of rights. Lets say most of the rights granted in the bill of rights that don't have to do with voting or the leaders, but the inherent rights of the people. Also, other rights like the right to have an abortion, and a few others.

These rights can and will never be taken away. Ever. No matter what. You will never be forced to give up your guns, your right to believe in god or not, to peacefully assemble, etc.

However, the government can always see what you and everyone else is doing. They will never use it for obscene purposes, like to blackmail you or take you out for politically incorrect beliefs. They will only use it to look for crime. And when they find crime, they punish it hard.

Crime, as a result, will nearly die out, and you still get your important rights. The rights you don't have is to a fair trial, and other things doing with arrest. This is because the government is assured to only ever arrest people they think are criminals, based on constant surveillance of every person at all times, and a judge will rule on it as soon as he has time.

Basically, a libertarian society where you can do whatever you want thats not illegal(lets say american laws for now), but if you break any law, you will get caught and you will get punished(of course, if you have a clean record and its an accident, you will probably only get a warning).

Would you live in this society?

HELL YA!

There's always at least some corruption in a government,no matter that hypothetical situation your in.Power always tends to bring corruption,because people become over confident.

Well I have an idea for a system to keep corruption out of the government. Suppose all officials get extra pay for reporting other officials who get into nasty business, suppose if you were caught reporting innocent officials you immidiatly got executed. Under those conditions it would take a while to get corrupt.

HELL YA!



Well I have an idea for a system to keep corruption out of the government. Suppose all officials get extra pay for reporting other officials who get into nasty business, suppose if you were caught reporting innocent officials you immidiatly got executed. Under those conditions it would take a while to get corrupt.

So you would rather have a backstabbing money-grabbing Government?
And often the temptation to be corrupt can be a little too great for some.

Absolutely not. I break the law on a daily basis as is.

No

absolutely not.

Sure, why not. We did say "hypothetically" after all, didn't we?

Funny someone should mention Singapore. I'm from Singapore. Maybe that's why I'm the only one here's who's going to give a positive response. I mean, the question essentially describes an idealised Singapore, and as long as we're daydreaming, my answer is yes.

well i already do, but in an ideal world no. I dont like being watched, and many things that are crimes are not wrong, while many things that are wrong are perfectly legal. i dont want to be constantly worrying about someone elses rules. I broke the law a little bit today, and yesterday. every day really, one way or another, and without inflicting any harm on any person or organisation.

Its funny on this site, how people can't wrap their minds around hypothetical situations, and must debase them accordingly.

Nope. I really don't want the govt knowing what I'm doing, even if they're supposedly not going to do anything. I like my privacy, thanks.

But I'm saying in a hypothetical situation where you know for a fact the government won't misbehave.
Such a hypothetical situation requires an unprecedented change in human behavior - namely, that those with power choose not to use their power in corrupt ways to increase their own advantages. There has never, ever been a human society where the ruling elite was as free from corruption as your scenario requires. Such a society is impossible - it cannot simply be legislated into existence. Humanity is full of corrupt and self-serving individuals, and there are too many to ensure that they are all excluded from government.

The only way to keep a firm control on official corruption is to have an open and democratic system where competing power groups are able to keep an eye on each other (competing political parties and separation of powers into different branches of government), and where the people have the ability to remove corrupt governments through elections. A free society cannot eliminate corruption, but it can maintain a reasonable level of official honesty by making the powerful compete with each other.

So in short, it would be impossible for me to live in your hypothetical society, since that society itself is contrary to basic human nature. Or even shorter: No.

Such a hypothetical situation requires an unprecedented change...

Hence why its a freaking hypothetical situation.

Again, someone who can't wrap their mind around the concept of hypotheticals.

Would it make it easier for you if the government was completely run by computer AI, programmed by one completely altruistic person through the course of his life, and it wouldn't be corrupt?

I like EVERYTHING about it, except the constant surveillance part, and the legal abortion part. The constant surveillance reminds me of the Outer Limets episode, The Peeping-Tom Machine. So, no I would not live in it.

I like EVERYTHING about it, except the constant surveillance part, and the legal abortion part. The constant surveillance reminds me of the Outer Limets episode, The Peeping-Tom Machine. So, no I would not live in it.

Thats the basic question, really. Are you willing to be constantly watched, even though it will only ever come to be an issue if you break the law?

Basically, a libertarian society where you can do whatever you want thats not illegal(lets say american laws for now), but if you break any law, you will get caught and you will get punished(of course, if you have a clean record and its an accident, you will probably only get a warning).

Would you live in this society?

I wouldn't live in that society because the government could catch me taking drugs, diddling taxes and the other things I believe I have a right to do.

While I technically agree that if the government is genuinely free from corruption "you have nothing to fear if you've done nothing wrong", there are so many laws I resent that for practical purposes I disagree with police-state legislation.

I wouldn't live in that society because the government could catch me taking drugs, diddling taxes and the other things I believe I have a right to do.

While I technically agree that if the government is genuinely free from corruption "you have nothing to fear if you've done nothing wrong", there are so many laws I resent that for practical purposes I disagree with police-state legislation.

Another good reason, and one I agree with to a large extent.

Would you live in a police state, granted the following:

You had a number of rights. Lets say most of the rights granted in the bill of rights that don't have to do with voting or the leaders, but the inherent rights of the people. Also, other rights like the right to have an abortion, and a few others.

These rights can and will never be taken away. Ever. No matter what. You will never be forced to give up your guns, your right to believe in god or not, to peacefully assemble, etc.

However, the government can always see what you and everyone else is doing. They will never use it for obscene purposes, like to blackmail you or take you out for politically incorrect beliefs. They will only use it to look for crime. And when they find crime, they punish it hard.

Crime, as a result, will nearly die out, and you still get your important rights. The rights you don't have is to a fair trial, and other things doing with arrest. This is because the government is assured to only ever arrest people they think are criminals, based on constant surveillance of every person at all times, and a judge will rule on it as soon as he has time.

Basically, a libertarian society where you can do whatever you want thats not illegal(lets say american laws for now), but if you break any law, you will get caught and you will get punished(of course, if you have a clean record and its an accident, you will probably only get a warning).

Would you live in this society?

Only if I make the laws. :p

Quite simply, no. Having failed to define the severity of the law, any discussion of an omni-scient and punitive government is difficult to grasp.

I also consider the ability to break the law and get away with it an integral part of democracy.

Would you live in a police state, granted the following:

You had a number of rights. Lets say most of the rights granted in the bill of rights that don't have to do with voting or the leaders, but the inherent rights of the people. Also, other rights like the right to have an abortion, and a few others.

These rights can and will never be taken away. Ever. No matter what. You will never be forced to give up your guns, your right to believe in god or not, to peacefully assemble, etc.

However, the government can always see what you and everyone else is doing. They will never use it for obscene purposes, like to blackmail you or take you out for politically incorrect beliefs. They will only use it to look for crime. And when they find crime, they punish it hard.

Crime, as a result, will nearly die out, and you still get your important rights. The rights you don't have is to a fair trial, and other things doing with arrest. This is because the government is assured to only ever arrest people they think are criminals, based on constant surveillance of every person at all times, and a judge will rule on it as soon as he has time.

Basically, a libertarian society where you can do whatever you want thats not illegal(lets say american laws for now), but if you break any law, you will get caught and you will get punished(of course, if you have a clean record and its an accident, you will probably only get a warning).

Would you live in this society?
I could.

Would I want to depends on other factors. how much ties do I have there and such.

my life is boring. if they assign anyone to watch me, they would consider it a sucky job.

I could.

Would I want to depends on other factors. how much ties do I have there and such.

my life is boring. if they assign anyone to watch me, they would consider it a sucky job.

Most likely, they would probably only look at people that could be linked to crimes that they know of, and possibly random watches of the days of people, fast-forwarded. But again, I'm not going to try to figure out how it would really work.

Had I been born into this society, I do not think I would be driven to move away, unless I had a promising job offer or something of the sort. Likewise, I do not think I would up sticks and move there without a significant cause either.

I do not mind at all if the government watches me live my life, I have nothing to hide, aside from a proclivity to jaywalk when there is clearly no danger to myself or obstruction of traffic.

I would be curious as to the punishments for different classes of crimes, though. Are folks in this hypothetical society (I'd be much obliged if you made up a name for it, Chellis) hanged for jaywalking? Or is it just serious offences that result in this swift and cruel punishment? What about youth crime? Kids do stupid and illegal stuff all the time before they grow into some sense. Would they be subject to the same scheme of punishments?

Finally, it would depend on how good-looking the eligible ladies of the society were, too.

Most likely, they would probably only look at people that could be linked to crimes that they know of, and possibly random watches of the days of people, fast-forwarded. But again, I'm not going to try to figure out how it would really work.


The whole point... HYPOTHETICAL... or not... is that you are WATCHING EVERYONE . You have completely thrown out the presumption of innocence .
That means you consider them either guilty or potentially guilty of something.
You have done away with the right to PRIVACY . A persons own home is NO LONGER HIS CASTLE . You have invited the GOVERNMENT into your bedroom .

Now who makes up this HYPOTHETICAL government ? Who elects them ?
What of the minority who REJECT the laws the majority at the time have passed ? Whithout judicial oversite and a comprhensive bill of rights and the means to enforce it ..someone gets screwed . Who gets to fight against a percieved unjust or unconstitutional law ? What stops the all knowing government from deciding that the " ends justify the means " ?
Knowing that absolute power corrupts absolutely...who polices the police ?

These are just a few things wrong with a police state of any sort .

A definite maybe. There are certain laws that I think are dumb, like the prohibition on drugs. And there are certain laws that I think are smart, like the prohibition on murder. So if I agreed with all the laws, and the government was incorruptible, then yes. If anything else, then no.

I believe in Freedom more than I believe in Law, (i.e. I believe in one entirely, and the other not at all), and as such I would like my possible actions to be as varied as possible, which would include the right to break the law (which IS a right, it is just that then the Government has the right to punish you for it).

So to sum up. No, I would not, I would never trust any Government to create a Law that would be identical to my morality, and as such I cannot rule out the possibility of engaging in criminal behaviour. And as a potential criminal I would not wish to be punished severely.

If this surviellance was done by a machine that only showed what I was doing to a human if it sensed that I was commiting a crime, maybe (go to NSWiki and search Nag Ehgoeg if you want to see a system like that). Otherwise, no.

hmm i think not, the government, i wouldnt trust it, but then i dont trust the electorate either so im stuck...


PS whats jaywalking?

PS whats jaywalking?

Crossing the road when the light tells you not to.

Hence why its a freaking hypothetical situation.

Again, someone who can't wrap their mind around the concept of hypotheticals.

Would it make it easier for you if the government was completely run by computer AI, programmed by one completely altruistic person through the course of his life, and it wouldn't be corrupt?

I can wrap my mind around hypotheticals, and I still say HELL FUCKING NO. You mentioned a U.S. style set of laws? I speed every day. I also smoke pot, not to mention other illegal things. Rules are made to be broken.

I guess we'll have to get use to a police state. 1984 was 22 years ago. The police state slowly grew until 9/11. Now we are told that the president has the power to do anything to "protect" the people. I'm sure Saddam had exactly the same attitude and beliefs. Of course he didn't have the technology to do it properly. On of the "advantages" of this country is the wealth to have a NSA.

Had I been born into this society, I do not think I would be driven to move away, unless I had a promising job offer or something of the sort. Likewise, I do not think I would up sticks and move there without a significant cause either.

I do not mind at all if the government watches me live my life, I have nothing to hide, aside from a proclivity to jaywalk when there is clearly no danger to myself or obstruction of traffic.

I would be curious as to the punishments for different classes of crimes, though. Are folks in this hypothetical society (I'd be much obliged if you made up a name for it, Chellis) hanged for jaywalking? Or is it just serious offences that result in this swift and cruel punishment? What about youth crime? Kids do stupid and illegal stuff all the time before they grow into some sense. Would they be subject to the same scheme of punishments?

Finally, it would depend on how good-looking the eligible ladies of the society were, too.

Well, to go away from the broad example, lets think about it. I would think that punishment is just about the same as it is now, gradually increasing. You would probably get a ticket for jaywalking, a heavy fine or small jail time for taking a few bong hits, and killed for mass murder, etc.

To make up a basically random name for it, lets say its a publocracy.

Youth's would probably have more warnings, etc. I'm trying not to go away from the common too much, so its an easy jump.

The whole point... HYPOTHETICAL... or not... is that you are WATCHING EVERYONE . You have completely thrown out the presumption of innocence .
That means you consider them either guilty or potentially guilty of something.
You have done away with the right to PRIVACY . A persons own home is NO LONGER HIS CASTLE . You have invited the GOVERNMENT into your bedroom .

Now who makes up this HYPOTHETICAL government ? Who elects them ?
What of the minority who REJECT the laws the majority at the time have passed ? Whithout judicial oversite and a comprhensive bill of rights and the means to enforce it ..someone gets screwed . Who gets to fight against a percieved unjust or unconstitutional law ? What stops the all knowing government from deciding that the " ends justify the means " ?
Knowing that absolute power corrupts absolutely...who polices the police ?

These are just a few things wrong with a police state of any sort .

It could be a democracy, republic, oligarchy, dictatorship, whatever. I specifically left it unspecified.

Also, this is a hypothetical system where the police and government are not corrupted. Period.

Would you live in a police state, granted the following:

You had a number of rights. Lets say most of the rights granted in the bill of rights that don't have to do with voting or the leaders, but the inherent rights of the people. Also, other rights like the right to have an abortion, and a few others.

These rights can and will never be taken away. Ever. No matter what. You will never be forced to give up your guns, your right to believe in god or not, to peacefully assemble, etc.

However, the government can always see what you and everyone else is doing. They will never use it for obscene purposes, like to blackmail you or take you out for politically incorrect beliefs. They will only use it to look for crime. And when they find crime, they punish it hard.

Crime, as a result, will nearly die out, and you still get your important rights. The rights you don't have is to a fair trial, and other things doing with arrest. This is because the government is assured to only ever arrest people they think are criminals, based on constant surveillance of every person at all times, and a judge will rule on it as soon as he has time.

Basically, a libertarian society where you can do whatever you want thats not illegal(lets say american laws for now), but if you break any law, you will get caught and you will get punished(of course, if you have a clean record and its an accident, you will probably only get a warning).

Would you live in this society?
It sounds good, except for the lack of a fair trial.

Would you live in a police state, granted the following:

You had a number of rights. Lets say most of the rights granted in the bill of rights that don't have to do with voting or the leaders, but the inherent rights of the people. Also, other rights like the right to have an abortion, and a few others.

These rights can and will never be taken away. Ever. No matter what. You will never be forced to give up your guns, your right to believe in god or not, to peacefully assemble, etc.

However, the government can always see what you and everyone else is doing. They will never use it for obscene purposes, like to blackmail you or take you out for politically incorrect beliefs. They will only use it to look for crime. And when they find crime, they punish it hard.

Crime, as a result, will nearly die out, and you still get your important rights. The rights you don't have is to a fair trial, and other things doing with arrest. This is because the government is assured to only ever arrest people they think are criminals, based on constant surveillance of every person at all times, and a judge will rule on it as soon as he has time.

Basically, a libertarian society where you can do whatever you want thats not illegal(lets say american laws for now), but if you break any law, you will get caught and you will get punished(of course, if you have a clean record and its an accident, you will probably only get a warning).

Would you live in this society?

The place you're talking about exists - its freakin' Singapore.

The place you're talking about exists - its freakin' Singapore.


nah nah nah, mate- it's freakin' Poland. 40 million of countryside idiots following white grandpa's teachings, radical nationalists in the government, no freedom of speech, only 10% of population univeristy educated, a criminal as a minister - THIS IS A FUKKEN JOKE!!!!

There's been an orange revolution in Ukraine that we suppported and NOTHING happens here; journalists say what they say and the nation sips cheap beers while watching one of 14 soaps on the telly, not giving a shit. Poland becomes a whore of USA - a country that's not ANY better than communist Russia.

I am ashamed of being Polish, not for the first time. And we suck at football, too.

FUKKEN BLACK MAFIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( priests and such )



:headbang:

I won't live in a society that does not exist.

Please, show me working models - not blueprints.

Usually, you don't get much of a choice if you live in a police state or not. By the time you realize it's a police state, you're there.

No.

Usually, you don't get much of a choice if you live in a police state or not. By the time you realize it's a police state, you're there.


Good point, DK!

Whoever wrote the first post:
please don]t show me a working model!

Good point, DK!

Whoever wrote the first post:
please don]t show me a working model!

The best part nowadays, is that if you live in a very modern Western nation that becomes a police state, the combination of computer records, CCTV, and surveillance technology will make a working resistance next to impossible.