NationStates Jolt Archive

It seems to me that we have a choice between two religious fanatics. As if we need more of THAT in government.
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Ohio governor's race bucks usual ideas

By JULIE CARR SMYTH, Associated Press WriterFri Jun 9, 6:33 PM ET

Ohio's race for governor is a journey through the looking glass. The Democrat, Rep. Ted Strickland (news, bio, voting record), is a rural, pro-gun minister, which could make him appealing to some Republicans. The Republican, Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell, is a black man who could draw votes from Democrats.

In this topsy-turvy political world, none of the usual assumptions hold, and even experienced prognosticators from both parties are hedging their bets.

"I think the formula for winning Ohio needs to be rewritten," said Greg Haas, a Democratic consultant who led Bill Clinton to victory in the state in 1992. "For many reasons, including the candidates running this year, I don't think old models apply."

Both the Republicans and the Democrats view Ohio as a must-have state this November, and the race to succeed Republican Gov. Bob Taft — who is prevented by term limits from running again — is expected to be an expensive, $50 million contest.

The GOP wants to extend its nearly 16-year hold on the governor's office in Ohio, a battleground state without which no Republican has ever won the White House.

The Democrats, meanwhile, see Strickland as their best shot in years to take back the state's top job. Their hopes have been raised by Republican scandals in Washington and in Ohio, where a coin dealer and major GOP donor is accused of making illegal contributions and embezzling from a state investment in rare coins.

But the never-before-seen matchup of two unconventional nominees makes the outcome anybody's guess.

Strickland, 64, hails from the sparsely populated reaches of Appalachia, where he has held his congressional seat in a Republican-dominated district since 1996. It is an unusual launching pad for the candidate of a party heavily concentrated in the state's big cities.

Haas said Strickland's rural roots could draw Bush-backing voters in Ohio's many farm communities to the Democrats.

Blackwell, 58, is an ardent Christian conservative who could become the nation's second black — and the first black Republican — to be elected governor. (Democrat L. Douglas Wilder was elected governor of Virginia in 1989.) Also this year, Lynn Swann, a Hall of Famer with the Pittsburgh Steelers in the 1970s who is black, is running for governor in Pennsylvania.

The Ohio GOP is hopeful its candidate will pull some black votes away from the Democratic Party. The Democrats may be the party of civil rights, but Blackwell is fond of calling the GOP "the party of Lincoln."

Strickland is working to neutralize any possible race advantage by crafting a strong urban agenda, promising among other things to have a Cabinet official devoted to urban issues.

The move was demanded by some of Ohio's big-city mayors, many of them black. Among them was Democrat Michael Coleman of Columbus, who said Blackwell hurt himself with Ohio's cities by trying to put a constitutional amendment to limit spending on the November ballot.

"That would have done more damage to cities than anything known to mankind. He's going to have to repent for that — maybe more," Coleman said.

Blackwell and the GOP-controlled Legislature all but killed the constitutional amendment in a deal under which similar but less stringent spending restrictions were instead put into state law. Blackwell portrayed the compromise as a victory; Strickland said he flip-flopped on a key issue that could have hurt him in November.

Both campaigns are focusing on jobs and education. The public schools are operating under a funding formula the Ohio Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled unconstitutional.

Strickland, stressing that education is the way to more jobs, wants to expand preschool and cut the costs of college. Blackwell said he sees Ohio's tax burden — by one recent measure, the third-highest in the nation — as the culprit.

Blackwell carries a Bible to public appearances and preaches an unflinching anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, pro-Christian message.

Strickland has aligned himself with a campaign to raise the minimum wage backed by a coalition of unions and more liberal ministers who proclaim well-paying jobs and decent health care as a new moral agenda.

Man, Ohio is such a disaster these days. Usually the northern states can be counted on not to become festering pits of superstition, but we've really been dropping the ball of late.

Ohio's been steadily drifting into the conservative column for several years now, thanks to the increasing fervor of the evangelical community here. Can ANYONE stand against the Christian Right?

Ohio's been steadily drifting into the conservative column for several years now, thanks to the increasing fervor of the evangelical community here. Can ANYONE stand against the Christian Right?

Not a chance, Thank God.

For you will recieve power when the Holy spirit comes upon you.
-Luke, in the book of Acts

Not a chance, Thank God.

For you will recieve power when the Holy spirit comes upon you.
-Luke, in the book of Acts

Don't count your chickens before they've hatched. There's going to be a LOT of new, young voters coming every year. And we know how the youth of the world tends to vote.

You can't stand against us as a whole. GWB was re-elected. You can fight us in bits and pieces, evil can enter the chuch and turn it on itself (Dark ages Catholicism), but always, in the end God's will is done, therefore we win.

And at the end of time we just flat out win.

YOu can't stand against us as a whole. GWB was re-elected. You can fight us in bits and pieces, evil can enter the chuch and turn it on itself (Dark ages Catholicism), but always, in the end God's will is done, therefore we win.

And at the end of time we just flat out win.

Assuming you're right. Be careful with what you think you know and what you really know. Faith and knowledge do not mix.

Assuming you're right. Be careful with what you think you know and what you really know. Faith and knowledge do not mix.

Because they are the same. Do you KNOW that the sun will rise tomorrow, or do you have faith that it will?

Because they are the same. Do you KNOW that the sun will rise tomorrow, or do you have faith that it will?

I know that barring disastrous cosmic events, the Earth will turn so that the area I live in will receive sunlight. Faith is independant of evidence. Knowledge requires tested theory and comes in degrees (we never can be sure that we know everything about a particular thing, we simply advance in understanding).

I know that barring disastrous cosmic events, the Earth will turn so that the area I live in will receive sunlight. Faith is independant of evidence. Knowledge requires tested theory and comes in degrees (we never can be sure that we know everything about a particular thing, we simply advance in understanding).


You're right to an extent. But faith IS evidence. And there are things that can be completely known. There just aren't that many of them.

You're right to an extent. But faith IS evidence. And there are things that can be completely known. There just aren't that many of them.

How is faith evidence?

How is faith evidence?


Does the American judicial system accept testimony based just on the witness's word? Yes, because they have faith that the witness is telling the truth. If they don't have faith that the witness is telling the truth, then what they say isn't used as evidence.

What horsehit is this, anyway?

Screw Faith. Embrace Doubt.

Does the American judicial system accept testimony based just on the witness's word? Yes, because they have faith that the witness is telling the truth. If they don't have faith that the witness is telling the truth, then what they say isn't used as evidence.

I don't deny that it is a flawed system. Usually evidence and motive need to be used as well. DNA, historical cases, etc.

What horsehit is this, anyway?

Screw Faith. Embrace Doubt.


What is doubt but a faith that there is nothing to have faith in?

Does the American judicial system accept testimony based just on the witness's word? Yes, because they have faith that the witness is telling the truth. If they don't have faith that the witness is telling the truth, then what they say isn't used as evidence.
You're confusing two different forms of faith. One deals with trust, the other with belief. Stop playing word games. Or if you insist with the analogy, now-a-days witnesses are considered to be the worst form of evidence. Our courts no longer have 'faith' in witnesses because they have been shown to be unreliable.

What is doubt but a faith that there is nothing to have faith in?

That's some weird backwards talking there. The burden of proof lies with faith. Doubt is static and doesn't change unless something changes it.

Don't count your chickens before they've hatched. There's going to be a LOT of new, young voters coming every year. And we know how the youth of the world tends to vote.

Actually some commentators believe that in a hundred years the majority of Americans will be Christian conservatives, because evangelicals normally have large families.

I don't deny that it is a flawed system. Usually evidence and motive need to be used as well. DNA, historical cases, etc.


Testimony is used as evidence to establish motive. And, unless all 12 jurors and the judge are forensic experts, they have to have faith in whoever is presenting the DNA evidence.

Actually some commentators believe that in a hundred years the majority of Americans will be Christian conservatives, because evangelicals normally have large families.

You think maybe our stance againt abortion helps?

What is doubt but a faith that there is nothing to have faith in?
Doubt is a tool with which we can come to understand ourselves and God. Faith is but a means to cop-out from even trying to understand.

You're confusing two different forms of faith. One deals with trust, the other with belief. Stop playing word games. Or if you insist with the analogy, now-a-days witnesses are considered to be the worst form of evidence. Our courts no longer have 'faith' in witnesses because they have been shown to be unreliable.


Really? Because Webster's Thesaurus lists trust and belief as synonyms. I can go all day on the English language, but I won't unless you make more accustions like that one.

You think maybe our stance againt abortion helps?

Yes, liberals are the only creatures on earth to defy their concept of Darwinism and murder their young.

Doubt is a tool with which we can come to understand ourselves and God. Faith is but a means to cop-out from even trying to understand.

God says he can only be found through faith. Doubt removes faith, making it low on my list of God-finding tools.

Yes, liberals are the only creatures on earth to defy their concept of Darwinism and murder their young.

No that supports the theory of natural selection. A creatures young are the greatest threat to its own survival.

God says he can only be found through faith. Doubt removes faith, making it low on my list of God-finding tools.

Someone else said that God can only be found through faith. Using faith to justify faith is a little too convenient for whoever came up with this stuff in the first place.

Yes, liberals are the only creatures on earth to defy their concept of Darwinism and murder their young.

Very funny, but it seems ever so slightly rich for a conservative Christian to accuse "liberals" of hypocrisy.

Someone else said that God can only be found through faith. Using faith to justify faith is a little too convenient for whoever came up with this stuff in the first place.

Justify, not really. Simply saying that you can't use natural or scientific means to find God because he created nature and science is our pitiful understanding, or lack thereof, of His creation.

Really? Because Webster's Thesaurus lists trust and belief as synonyms. I can go all day on the English language, but I won't unless you make more accustions like that one.
Are you that ignorant of the English language that you don't know that simply because something is a synonym does not mean that it has the same meaning?


Example: horror and revulsion. Both are synonyms of each other, but they have two separate and distinct connotations that prohibit (mostly) their interlocking use. Trust is based upon stable foundations, while faith is "[b]elief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence".

Very funny, but it seems ever so slightly rich for a conservative Christian to accuse "liberals" of hypocrisy.

Really? I do it all the time.

God says he can only be found through faith. Doubt removes faith, making it low on my list of God-finding tools.
No, some humans said God can only be found that way. God has told me otherwise. And where God is concerned, I know who I'll choose to listen to - and it's not a bunch of humans I've never met before.

Are you that ignorant of the English language that you don't know that simply because something is a synonym does not mean that it has the same meaning?


Example: horror and revulsion. Both are synonyms of each other, but they have two separate and distinct connotations that prohibit (mostly) their interlocking use. Trust is based upon stable foundations, while faith is "[b]elief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence".

As I just said, this is above nature. IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS CONVERSATION, BELIEFS ARE THE MOST STABLE FOUNDATION THERE IS!

As I just said, this is above nature. IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS CONVERSATION, BELIEFS ARE THE MOST STABLE FOUNDATION THERE IS!
Wrong. Faith is without a foundation. It is an acceptance without proof. It has no relation to the witness/court system which is incumbent upon the creditability of the witness.

No, some humans said God can only be found that way. God has told me otherwise. And where God is concerned, I know who I'll choose to listen to - and it's not a bunch of humans I've never met before.

God used men to write His words down. Daniel could not have predicted Babylon's downfall, seeing as how no empire had fallen that quickly before.

Wrong. Faith is without a foundation. It is an acceptance without proof. It has no relation to the witness/court system which is incumbent upon the creditability of the witness.

I say again, CONTEXT.

God used men to write His words down. Daniel could not have predicted Babylon's downfall, seeing as how no empire had fallen that quickly before.
Men are fallible, are they not?

I say again, CONTEXT.
I say again, your assertation of CONTEXT makes no sense if you insist upon holding to your court analogy. Saying it in CAPS and BOLDED does not make your point any better.

Men are fallible, are they not?

God's not so pathetic as to let little humans mess up his plans.

Very funny, but it seems ever so slightly rich for a conservative Christian to accuse "liberals" of hypocrisy.

Liberal in 1997: Clinton lied under oath, so what? Everybody does it.

Same Liberal in 2006: Impeach Dubya; Bush Lied; Kids Died.

God used men to write His words down. Daniel could not have predicted Babylon's downfall, seeing as how no empire had fallen that quickly before.

How do you know this to be true?

God's not so pathetic as to let little humans mess up his plans.
How would one explain the popes and the protestant reformation?

I say again, your assertation of CONTEXT makes no sense if you insist upon holding to your court analogy. Saying it in CAPS and BOLDED does not make your point any better.

No anlogy is perfect

And don't be so full of yourself, Bold Caps is great stress relief for me. ;)

I'm Christian, but I don't think I have any right to force my beliefs on anyone else through government; why do you try to do that? Unless I'm mistaken, God gave us choice in life, correct? You'd be vehement I'm sure if there was a large Jewish conservative movement in the government. Try to convert people by example, not by pushing your beliefs in the government. But anyway, I'm from what the news story refers to the urban farming communities in Ohio, and Strickland's done a pretty good job in my opinion of what I've seen.

Liberal in 1997: Clinton lied under oath, so what? Everybody does it.

Same Liberal in 2006: Impeach Dubya; Bush Lied; Kids Died.

I'd say the hypocrisy of supporting the death penalty whilst opposing abortion is more important that lying about a blowjob.

Liberal in 1997: Clinton lied under oath, so what? Everybody does it.

Same Liberal in 2006: Impeach Dubya; Bush Lied; Kids Died.

While I would agree that lying of any sort while in office is reprehensible, War and a blowjob are at opposite ends of the "critical situation" spectrum.

While I would agree that lying of any sort while in office is reprehensible, War and a blowjob are at opposite ends of the "critical situation" spectrum.

Jynx :P

How would one explain the popes and the protestant reformation?

Martin Luther figured out that the Catholic church had hijacked the truth of Christianity for their own advancement. Luther goes public. Catholics react to the threat, unsuccessfully.

If you're so eager to live in a theocracy, get the hell out of my country and go live in Iran. You Fundie assholes disgust me. You're not doing God's work, and I'm getting very tired of hearing you all claim that oppression and intolerance are what God wants. You are committing blasphemy when you do evil and claim it is in God's name. Who the hell are you to claim to speak for God? You're doing this for your own thirst for power and a need to control others-- end of story. You have no right to tell others what to read, what to do with their bodies, and what to think. If you want a civil war, buddy, you'll get one. The decent people of this nation have had just about enough of your bullshit, and you'd best be prepared for us to fight back.

No anlogy is perfect

And don't be so full of yourself, Bold Caps is great stress relief for me. ;)
It isn't even close to making any sense. Your assertation that faith is evidence rests upon that analogy (which is also a bit asanine), which is only a clever attempt at an equivocation.

Martin Luther figured out that the Catholic church had hijacked the truth of Christianity for their own advancement. Luther goes public. Catholics react to the threat, unsuccessfully.

If the reformers were on God's side, why were Habsburg Spain and their Catholic allies so successful in driving Protestantism from large parts of Europe, reducing it to strongholds in Scandinavia, GB, parts of the Low Countries and northern Germany?

Martin Luther figured out that the Catholic church had hijacked the truth of Christianity for their own advancement. Luther goes public. Catholics react to the threat, unsuccessfully.
And yet catholicism still exists. A large segment of christianity follows a 'false' faith. Ditto Muslims. God's plan is hijacked. There are multiple editions of the bible, many of which have little relation to the original greek. Why, if God can not be derailed so easily?

I'd say the hypocrisy of supporting the death penalty whilst opposing abortion is more important that lying about a blowjob.

No hypocrisy involved. Everyone forgets the second half of this verse: An eye for an eye, a tooth fo a tooth, and a life for a life. IF you can prove that a prenatal baby has murdered someone, go ahead and have an abortion.

Bush didn't lie though. The majority of words that Clinton emitted were falsified.

And yet catholicism still exists. A large segment of christianity follows a 'false' faith. Ditto Muslims. God's plan is hijacked. There are multiple editions of the bible, many of which have little relation to the original greek. Why, if God can not be derailed so easily?

Follows a faith doesn't make sense. You have faith and follow it. And there are only ten lines in the entire Bible that are disputed from the original HEBREW, GREEK, AND ARAMAIC. No other text comes close to the accuracy of the Bible through time.

No hypocrisy involved. Everyone forgets the second half of this verse: An eye for an eye, a tooth fo a tooth, and a life for a life. IF you can prove that a prenatal baby has murdered someone, go ahead and have an abortion.

Heavens, if you can't see the hypocrisy I'll spell it out to you. If we presume that life is sacred and a gift from God, and that only God should create and take away life, how is it acceptable that the state is able to murder? Do you not see how this contradicts the sanctity of life doctrine?

No hypocrisy involved. Everyone forgets the second half of this verse: An eye for an eye, a tooth fo a tooth, and a life for a life. IF you can prove that a prenatal baby has murdered someone, go ahead and have an abortion.

(New American Standard)Matthew 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. 39. But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

An eye for an eye was the old testament law.

If the reformers were on God's side, why were Habsburg Spain and their Catholic allies so successful in driving Protestantism from large parts of Europe, reducing it to strongholds in Scandinavia, GB, parts of the Low Countries and northern Germany?

Unless protestantism has been wiped out, which will not happen while I draw breath, then it still exists. And history proves that persecution strengthens faith.

Follows a faith doesn't make sense. You have faith and follow it. And there are only ten lines in the entire Bible that are disputed from the original HEBREW, GREEK, AND ARAMAIC. No other text comes close to the accuracy of the Bible through time.
faith Audio pronunciation of "faith" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

Depends on what version of the bible you're looking at. Look at homosexuality, for instance. Why does god allow the dispute over the meaning of the word in the bible if he does not like his plans being disturbed?

What about Muslims? Jews?

(New American Standard)Matthew 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. 39. But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

An eye for an eye was the old testament law.

a) Jesus does not repeal the second half. I infer that he still wanted that on the books.

b)American Law was based on New and Old Testament law.

faith Audio pronunciation of "faith" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fth)
n.

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.

Depends on what version of the bible you're looking at. Look at homosexuality, for instance. Why does god allow the dispute over the meaning of the word in the bible if he does not like his plans being disturbed?

What about Muslims? Jews?

a) Right, that's waht I said.
b) Could you please be more specific?
c) What about them?

When did Jesus ever say or imply killing was alright?

And I wasn't talking about American Law

a) Jesus does not repeal the second half. I infer that he still wanted that on the books.

b)American Law was based on New and Old Testament law.



I'm also tired of you so-called people insisiting on that lie.

Unless protestantism has been wiped out, which will not happen while I draw breath, then it still exists. And history proves that persecution strengthens faith.

But can the failure of Protestantism to dominate Europe not be interpreted as a sign from God that Luther was erring from the True Faith? Presumably if God had desired the destruction of Catholicism it would have taken place, seeing as God is all powerful.

Heavens, if you can't see the hypocrisy I'll spell it out to you. If we presume that life is sacred and a gift from God, and that only God should create and take away life, how is it acceptable that the state is able to murder? Do you not see how this contradicts the sanctity of life doctrine?

I don't presume that. God gives life, takes it, and tells us when to take it (murderers). Therefore no hypocrisy. Don't assume what I believe until I say it.

a) Jesus does not repeal the second half. I infer that he still wanted that on the books.

b)American Law was based on New and Old Testament law.
American law is based upon english common law, which ended up curbing old church courts.

a) Right, that's waht I said.
b) Could you please be more specific?
c) What about them?


Yeah, what about them, Fundie? what do you plan for anyone who isn't a member of Westboro Baptist Church in your little religious dystopia? Forced conversion? Purges? Concentration Camps?

But can the failure of Protestantism to dominate Europe not be interpreted as a sign from God that Luther was erring from the True Faith? Presumably if God had desired the destruction of Catholicism it would have taken place, seeing as God is all powerful.

I hesitate because the answer is too obvious. He doesn't want it destroyed.

So...you think God's working through the U.S. when our military drops a bomb on an Iraqi village, killing children?

I don't presume that. God gives life, takes it, and tells us when to take it (murderers). Therefore no hypocrisy. Don't assume what I believe until I say it.


Why not? You people do it all the time.

Yeah, what about them, Fundie? what do you plan for anyone who isn't a member of Westboro Baptist Church in your little religious dystopia? Forced conversion? Purges? Concentration Camps?

Yeah, its called let God decide because He's God and I'm just his instrument.

I don't presume that. God gives life, takes it, and tells us when to take it (murderers). Therefore no hypocrisy. Don't assume what I believe until I say it.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever read. Good day.

Why not? You people do it all the time.

What belief have I attributed to you falsely?

a) Right, that's waht I said.
b) Could you please be more specific?
c) What about them?
No. You follow a faith, a set of teachings. You have faith in a god. Two different uses of the word.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibg.htm

Why are they allowed to be misled, if protestantism christianity is the only true faith?

I don't presume that. God gives life, takes it, and tells us when to take it (murderers). Therefore no hypocrisy. Don't assume what I believe until I say it.

But surely you can see that your beliefs implicitly suggest that all life is not sacred?

So...you think God's working through the U.S. when our military drops a bomb on an Iraqi village, killing children?

Yeah, war sucks.

It is well that war is so terrible, lest we should grow to fond of it.

But surely you can see that your beliefs implicitly suggest that all life is not sacred?

Right, murderers get no protection.

No. You follow a faith, a set of teachings. You have faith in a god. Two different uses of the word.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibg.htm

Why are they allowed to be misled, if protestantism christianity is the only true faith?

I never said it was. A faith in Christ's sacrifice is the only true faith.

What belief have I attributed to you falsely?


Not to me personally. You know very well what I meant. I meant to a) liberals and b) Catholics. And I was using the plural "you", which I'm sure you also know quite well. Nice strawman.

Yeah, war sucks.


That makes me sad that you have gathered from your faith that God is fine with a country killing children; that's not what I've gathered. If he's fine with us bombing the crap out of other countries, why would he have a problem with abortion? That would make the doctors the murderers, thus it's all God's plan and such?

I never said it was. A faith in Christ's sacrifice is the only true faith.
So then Islam is false. Why does God permit those people to be misled, but not the bible to be twisted?

Right, murderers get no protection.

But did they not also recieve their life from the Lord, therefore making it sacred and above human interference?

Yeah, its called let God decide because He's God and I'm just his instrument.


You Fundies aren't doing a damn thing for God, you're doing it for yourselves.

American law is based upon english common law, which ended up curbing old church courts.

The judicial system is, which may be the source of our modern problems with it. But an appeal to nature and its God would probably go in the Biblical column.

I never said it was. A faith in Christ's sacrifice is the only true faith.

Why? Why not Judaism?

But did they not also recieve their life from the Lord, therefore making it sacred and above human interference?

Not when God says to interfere.

Not when God says to interfere.

Pretty certain that the Lord said that "Vengeance is Mine".

You Fundies aren't doing a damn thing for God, you're doing it for yourselves.
There's a reason churches get not-for-profit status. They're not for profit.

I'd say that ohio obviously isn't important or this oh-so-common case of thread jacking wouldn't have occured. Care to stick to the original posters thoughts/idea/question?

Seems to me that the choice for us Ohioans is either to A.) Not vote and totally screw up the politicle process, thus giving Ohio the fresh start that it needs, or B.) Voting for the lesser of two evils and dealing with the religious banter that so many people in this country embrace.

Doh, I just forgot election day.

The judicial system is, which may be the source of our modern problems with it. But an appeal to nature and its God would probably go in the Biblical column.
The law itself was built upon british common law. We inherited it nearly intact from the brits. You have a very basic understanding of our country's legal system if you think otherwise.

Not when God says to interfere.

Where in the New Testament does he delegate the power to take away life to mortals?

I'd say that ohio obviously isn't important or this oh-so-common case of thread jacking wouldn't have occured. Care to stick to the original posters thoughts/idea/question?

Seems to me that the choice for us Ohioans is either to A.) Not vote and totally screw up the politicle process, thus giving Ohio the fresh start that it needs, or B.) Voting for the lesser of two evils and dealing with the religious banter that so many people in this country embrace.

Doh, I just forgot election day.

Get third candidate.

Pretty certain that the Lord said that "Vengeance is Mine".

Look through the Bible and tell me how many times God lets heathen nations overrun Israel because they sinned. Humans are frequently used as the tools of God's vengeance.

There's a reason churches get not-for-profit status. They're not for profit.

hahahaha, yeeeeeeah riiiight. Looked at the rings the pope wears lately? Or did "god" just drop those down from heaven right onto his fingers?


EDIT: sorry original poster, I guess this religious topic is fun to talk about.

Look through the Bible and tell me how many times God lets heathen nations overrun Israel because they sinned. Humans are frequently used as the tools of God's vengeance.

I certainly won't argue about you being a tool.

There's a reason churches get not-for-profit status. They're not for profit.


What about all those mega-churches run by televangelists? Are you telling me they don't turn a profit? And I think we can count the power you people seek over others' lives as profit.

I'd say that ohio obviously isn't important or this oh-so-common case of thread jacking wouldn't have occured. Care to stick to the original posters thoughts/idea/question?

Seems to me that the choice for us Ohioans is either to A.) Not vote and totally screw up the politicle process, thus giving Ohio the fresh start that it needs, or B.) Voting for the lesser of two evils and dealing with the religious banter that so many people in this country embrace.

Doh, I just forgot election day.

Yeah, but if you think I'm gonna sit by and let my God be slandered, then you've just met a new kind of Christian for the first time. This kind says bring it.

I certainly won't argue about you being a tool.

haha, that actually made me laugh out loud.

What about all those mega-churches run by televangelists? Are you telling me they don't turn a profit? And I think we can count the power you people seek over others' lives as profit.

Yeah, if only we could control people's lives, then spreading Christianity would be so easy. And didn't I already give an example of hijacked faith?

I certainly won't argue about you being a tool.

I'm proud of the title you mock. I think I'll make some t-shirts. "Tool of God"

I do wish that I could further comment upon, and read about this topic, but I'm at an internet cafe and, well, it's just a tad expensive, so I'll say goodbye.

And USA, I actually am impressed by how vigilante you are in your views. Nice job sticking up for them even if they aren't mine. I wish more people would do that lol.

Yeah, but if you think I'm gonna sit by and let my God be slandered, then you've just met a new kind of Christian for the first time. This kind says bring it.


We're not slandering God. We're disputing you Fundies and your claim that you and you alone know his mind, and speak for him. We're not questioning God's wisdom; just yours.

hahahaha, yeeeeeeah riiiight. Looked at the rings the pope wears lately? Or did "god" just drop those down from heaven right onto his fingers?


EDIT: sorry original poster, I guess this religious topic is fun to talk about.

I love it. And I've already posted my views on the Catholic church.

We're not slandering God. We're disputing you Fundies and your claim that you and you alone know his mind, and speak for him. We're not questioning God's wisdom; just yours.

I speak the Bible, God's inspired word, revelation of himself, and plan of Salvation for a fallen world that I must live in until He brings me home.
As did Paul, I brag of Christ and Him crucified, for all other knowledge is folly.

We're not slandering God. We're disputing you Fundies and your claim that you and you alone know his mind, and speak for him. We're not questioning God's wisdom; just yours.

Fundies, is it? That's short for fumdamentalist, right? since I believe in the Fundamentals of Christianity, I think I'll make more t-shirts.

I do wish that I could further comment upon, and read about this topic, but I'm at an internet cafe and, well, it's just a tad expensive, so I'll say goodbye.

And USA, I actually am impressed by how vigilante you are in your views. Nice job sticking up for them even if they aren't mine. I wish more people would do that lol.

even though you aren't there, thanks.

Yeah, if only we could control people's lives, then spreading Christianity would be so easy. And didn't I already give an example of hijacked faith?


Yes, by insulting my church. The Catholic Church has done, and continues to make mistakes and do things that I find objectionable (the pedophilia scandal, for instance), and I do not condone, but at least we learned the hard way that forcing our beliefs on others (like in the Inquisition) is wrong. You "people" still think it's acceptable. Or do you not have the guts to admit what you'd do to the rest of us if you took over?

Where in the New Testament does he delegate the power to take away life to mortals?

not New, Old

I speak the Bible, God's inspired word, revelation of himself, and plan of Salvation for a fallen world that I must live in until He brings me home.
As did Paul, I brag of Christ and Him crucified, for all other knowledge is folly.


Prove that your interpretation (and yours alone) of Scripture is correct.

Yes, by insulting my church. The Catholic Church has done, and continues to make mistakes and do things that I find objectionable (the pedophilia scandal, for instance), and I do not condone, but at least we learned the hard way that forcing our beliefs on others (like in the Inquisition) is wrong. You "people" still think it's acceptable. Or do you not have the guts to admit what you'd do to the rest of us if you took over?

What would I do if I ruled the world?

Genocide, Starvation, abject poverty, disease and host of problems come before liberals. I'd probably never get around to you in my entire life.

Fundies, is it? That's short for fumdamentalist, right? since I believe in the Fundamentals of Christianity, I think I'll make more t-shirts.


Since when are intolerance and bigotry "fundamentals of Christianity"?

Prove that your interpretation (and yours alone) of Scripture is correct.

Evidence That Demands A Verdict
New Evidence That Demands A Verdict

books that answer that question.

Since when are intolerance and bigotry "fundamentals of Christianity"?

Since when have I practiced them?

I speak the Bible, God's inspired word, revelation of himself, and plan of Salvation for a fallen world that I must live in until He brings me home.
As did Paul, I brag of Christ and Him crucified, for all other knowledge is folly.

Bible, God, Salvation, He, Him... Does overcapitalisation automatically entitle one to salvation?

Yes, by insulting my church. The Catholic Church has done, and continues to make mistakes and do things that I find objectionable (the pedophilia scandal, for instance), and I do not condone, but at least we learned the hard way that forcing our beliefs on others (like in the Inquisition) is wrong. You "people" still think it's acceptable. Or do you not have the guts to admit what you'd do to the rest of us if you took over?

Before the Revolution that was my church, too. And did I say anythig in reference to the last 300 years of Catholic history?

not New, Old

What do you say about contradictory passages in the New Testament? Is one superior to the other?

Bible, God, Salvation, He, Him... Does overcapitalisation automatically entitle one to salvation?

No, it's proper English.

What do you say about contradictory passages in the New Testament? Is one superior to the other?

The New Testament is a new agreement between God and Man. No one could follow the old agreement. That's why there's a new one.

The New Testament is a new agreement between God and Man. No one could follow the old agreement. That's why there's a new one.

So, no more right for mortals to take away life then. That clears that up.

No, it's proper English.

Spoken like a true American. Since when are common nouns entitled to capitals?

What would I do if I ruled the world?

Genocide, Starvation, abject poverty, disease and host of problems come before liberals. I'd probably never get around to you in my entire life.


Genocide? Don't make me laugh. You religious nuts are why genocide happens. Poverty? Starvation? I know numerous evangelical "missionaries" who have gone to foreign nations with one purpose: converstion. Not one lifted a finger to help suffering people. None of them would ever answer why, either. And before you say it, yes, I do give to charity. I'm not a hypocrite. Disease? Oh sure. That's why you people oppose giving out condoms in Third World countries. Oh, wait-- I forgot. AIDS isn't a disease, it's God's punishment for sins like homosexuality, promiscuity, and hemophilia, right?

Spoken like a true American. Since when are common nouns entitled to capitals?

Yeah I know the jokes. Whenever they are God's names, the Bible, or parts thereof. Pronouns get the same when used to replace said nouns.

Evidence That Demands A Verdict
New Evidence That Demands A Verdict

books that answer that question.


I meant an objective source.

God does not speak through you or anyone else. He gives no one person the power over any other person, and takes no one person's power over any other person. It is us, his ants, that help and hurt us, his ants, while he remains disappointed that we retain our ant status.

The bible, the church, and the dogma, have all gotten in the way of our path, and the scent was lost, the ants have strayed.

Since when have I practiced them?


Again, plural "you".


Before the Revolution that was my church, too. And did I say anythig in reference to the last 300 years of Catholic history?

Did I say you did?

Genocide? Don't make me laugh. You religious nuts are why genocide happens. Poverty? Starvation? I know numerous evangelical "missionaries" who have gone to foreign nations with one purpose: converstion. Not one lifted a finger to help suffering people. None of them would ever answer why, either. And before you say it, yes, I do give to charity. I'm not a hypocrite. Disease? Oh sure. That's why you people oppose giving out condoms in Third World countries. Oh, wait-- I forgot. AIDS isn't a disease, it's God's punishment for sins like homosexuality, promiscuity, and hemophilia, right?

Put your hand on a hot stove and after I have called you an ambulance, I will call you an idiot for ignoring the natural consequences of your actions. Hemophilia only exists because this is a fallen world we live in. You can thank Adam and Eve. And religious nuts are indeed why genocide happens. Why else would 350,000 Sudanese Christians up and die? I can't speak for all Christians, as I've already said. I argue Christ and Christianity, not Christans.

I am going to give some friendly advice to Ohioans. Disband the state. ;)

To have to choose between Strickland and Blackwell is like having to choose between cyanide and strychnine. Once again the not so Christian right gets their wishes. In this case it will be reduced voter turnout and massively bad feelings for both political parties.

Who chooses these candidates? Drugs...it must be all the pills these guys popped in the sixties and all the powder they snorted up their noses.

Put your hand on a hot stove and after I have called you an ambulance, I will call you an idiot for ignoring the natural consequences of your actions. Hemophilia only exists because this is a fallen world we live in. You can thank Adam and Eve. And religious nuts are indeed why genocide happens. Why else would 350,000 Sudanese Christians up and die? I can't speak for all Christians, as I've already said. I argue Christ and Christianity, not Christans.

... Hemophilia happens because of incest and negative genetic traits. Actions of humanity, not god.

Again, plural "you".




Did I say you did?

Ok

if i didn't the i haven't insulted your church, unless you were in attendance 300 years ago.

... Hemophilia happens because of incest and negative genetic traits. Actions of humanity, not god.

All disease is a result of sin

Incest does not magically create the genes for hemophilia. They're already there.

I am going to give some friendly advice to Ohioans. Disband the state. ;)

To have to choose between Strickland and Blackwell is like having to choose between cyanide and strychnine. Once again the not so Christian right gets their wishes. In this case it will be reduced voter turnout and massively bad feelings for both political parties.

Who chooses these candidates? Drugs...it must be all the pills these guys popped in the sixties and all the powder they snorted up their noses.

Our wishes?
Please explain. . .

Put your hand on a hot stove and after I have called you an ambulance, I will call you an idiot for ignoring the natural consequences of your actions. Hemophilia only exists because this is a fallen world we live in. You can thank Adam and Eve. And religious nuts are indeed why genocide happens. Why else would 350,000 Sudanese Christians up and die? I can't speak for all Christians, as I've already said. I argue Christ and Christianity, not Christans.


You have no idea what hemophilia is, do you?

http://www.wfh.org/index.asp?lang=EN&url=2/1/1_1_1_FAQ.htm

God does not speak through you or anyone else. He gives no one person the power over any other person, and takes no one person's power over any other person. It is us, his ants, that help and hurt us, his ants, while he remains disappointed that we retain our ant status.

The bible, the church, and the dogma, have all gotten in the way of our path, and the scent was lost, the ants have strayed.


Read the Bible.

I meant an objective source.

What could be more objective than books written with the explicit purpose of disproving Christianity? Read the introduction.

You have no idea what hemophilia is, do you?

http://www.wfh.org/index.asp?lang=EN&url=2/1/1_1_1_FAQ.htm

withiut looking at those links i can tell you that it is the inability of one's blood to clot, therefore the nickname "bleeder's disease"

Put your hand on a hot stove and after I have called you an ambulance, I will call you an idiot for ignoring the natural consequences of your actions. Hemophilia only exists because this is a fallen world we live in. You can thank Adam and Eve. And religious nuts are indeed why genocide happens. Why else would 350,000 Sudanese Christians up and die? I can't speak for all Christians, as I've already said. I argue Christ and Christianity, not Christans.

Hemophilia exists because of the rule of primogeniture in royal families, and all of the intermarrying of said royal families. Hemophilia is the natural result of breeding too close to the same gene pools for generations. Royal families have been scraping the bottom of the barrel and swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool for too long.

It has nothing to do whether the ordinary folks of this world have "fallen" from grace.

Your state with God is individual and personal. I have read your disgusting invective and seen you publish your vile screed. You are most certainly NOT a true christian. You are just another sad person using the bible as a tool of prejudice and spreading hatred. You would have fit in nicely in the Crusades.

Your Dark Ages view of the world certainly is on full display here.

Put your hand on a hot stove and after I have called you an ambulance, I will call you an idiot for ignoring the natural consequences of your actions. Hemophilia only exists because this is a fallen world we live in. You can thank Adam and Eve. And religious nuts are indeed why genocide happens. Why else would 350,000 Sudanese Christians up and die? I can't speak for all Christians, as I've already said. I argue Christ and Christianity, not Christans.

Would you please start your own thread? I was really enjoying this one until you came along and picked a fight.

As for possible gubernatorial candidates, I personally like Frank Jackson, although that may just be because I'm a Clevelander. He put himself through college and law school, starting at Cuyahoga Community College and ending up at Cleveland State, and has introduced a Cleveland Police Force policy explicitly addressing the use of excessive force and police brutality. In my opinion, he has his priorities straight, and would be an excellent choice.

Hemophilia exists because of the rule of primogeniture in royal families, and all of the intermarrying of said royal families. Hemophilia is the natural result of breeding too close to the same gene pools for generations. Royal families have been scraping the bottom of the barrel and swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool for too long.

It has nothing to do whether the ordinary folks of this world have "fallen" from grace.

Your state with God is individual and personal. I have read your disgusting invective and seen you publish your vile screed. You are most certainly NOT a true christian. You are just another sad person using the bible as a tool of prejudice and spreading hatred. You would have fit in nicely in the Crusades.

Your Dark Ages view of the world certainly is on full display here.

I can't decide whether you need a time-out, or your mouth washed out with soap, since those are the thing I do to 4-year-olds. Next time try attacking my position instead of me. You'll never succeed in attacking a member of the US military. Speaking of next time, I'm gone untill it. Thank you all for 2 hours of diversion. I take my leave.

withiut looking at those links i can tell you that it is the inability of one's blood to clot, therefore the nickname "bleeder's disease"


Very good. Now explain how it is the result of a "fallen world". Hemophiliacs deserve it? I don't understand your reference.

You'll never succeed in attacking a member of the US military.

The Iraqis seem to be having a measure of success...

Christ*, this doesn't say too much good stuff about Separation of Church and the US constitution when a debate on a Gubanatorial election turns into a 2-Hour christian fundie debate. What irony!:p

I pun, I are special.

I can't decide whether you need a time-out, or your mouth washed out with soap, since those are the thing I do to 4-year-olds. Next time try attacking my position instead of me. You'll never succeed in attacking a member of the US military. Speaking of next time, I'm gone untill it. Thank you all for 2 hours of diversion. I take my leave.

Since when did you enjoy any special position as a member of the US military? If this is true it disappoints me in you even more.

You see, I'm retired after 22+ years of wearing the uniform myself. I did not use my uniform to push a political position or a religious one either. Regulations strongly prohibit that sort of behavior. You are not going to earn any "cred" with me with you referring back to wearing the uniform and serving this country. You'll get my thanks for doing your job and my respect for doing a tough job in a tough time to be a military service member.

That does not invalidate your commentary in this thread where you strongly push your religion on other people who might not find it welcome. It does not make amends for you acting an ass and me calling you out for it. Most of all it does not make reparations for you using your military service status to state a position and lend it some sort of credibility.

You are in a political debate, son. Not a street fight. If you can't take it, then don't dish it out. If you don't know what the hell you're talking about, then keep your mouth shut.

This world is falling apart because that is what human beings do to each other, kid. Greed, hatred, vainglory, false piety...the human race has all of it in spades. You aren't helping matters with your judgemental attitude. God gave us free will, it is up to us to live our lives either in a good way or a bad way.

Just how will you have contributed to a better human society before you die?