NationStates Jolt Archive

Technically, I don't actually live in that town but I live in the county in a small town near it. But anyway...

Santa Cruz has Biodiesel at the pump (http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2006/June/10/local/stories/01local.htm).
The USA station, at 2860 Soquel Ave., is the first major retailer in Santa Cruz County to offer biodiesel instead of the traditional diesel fuel. The station made the switch Friday.

The price, $3.16 per gallon, was the same as for the diesel being sold by a competitor across the street. Diesel prices ranged this week from $3 at Rotten Robbie on Mission Street in Santa Cruz to $3.40 at Valero in Soquel.

The environmental benefits of biodiesel are twofold: Emissions of greenhouse gases and carbon monoxide are reduced and demand for oil shrinks because the mix consists of 1 percent petroleum and 99 percent vegetable oil.

And they're doing it in a Santa Cruz kinda way -

Both biodiesel outlets get fuel from the same source, Pacific Biofuel of Moss Landing. Roussopoulos said he favors Pacific even when other suppliers offer lower prices because it's a local company.

"We've been working hard to bring biodiesel to the masses," said Michael Sack, CEO of Pacific Biofuel.

His deal with USA came about after meeting with Kris Moller, whose father owns the USA Petroleum chain.

"We invited him to surf," Sack said. "We had a board meeting on the water."

I live down the street (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/06/solarpowered_bi.php) from the other one. Like that article says-
This won't save the world, but it's nice to see that some people are going a bit farther than they need to, giving visibility to cleaner ways of getting things done and certainly inspiring others to go ahead with their projects.
...
A small thing for sure, but the day when everybody starts doing small things like that we'll be better off.

Now I just need to get a diesel (I was working on that anyway...)

We also have this goin on (http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2006/June/10/local/stories/02local.htm) -
While Blume's station would initially run on corn-based ethanol made in the Midwest, he hopes to eventually open his own ethanol distillery in Santa Cruz County, ditching corn for woodchips and agricultural waste.

He said engines lose about 10 percent of their fuel efficiency on ethanol but hopes the cost of the fuel will drop so that lost efficiency is more than made up for.

A longtime Santa Cruz resident, Blume speaks at conferences all over the Americas and founded the International Institute for Ecological Agriculture. He teaches workshops locally on sustainable living. More information can be found at www.permaculture.com/alcohol
Though I think that this -
Critics point to how corn production consumes large amounts of fossil fuel with ecological side effects, like the New Jersey-sized "dead zone" in the Gulf of Mexico caused by nitrate-rich agricultural runoff from corn producing states up the Mississippi River.

But better from the Midwest than the Middle East, supporters say.

That's not enough of an answer, dammit...you don't want trade problems...

My town has a couple stations with biodiesel too. It seems to be gaining in popularity, especially with the rising prices of gas for the summer.

My town has a couple stations with biodiesel too. It seems to be gaining in popularity, especially with the rising prices of gas for the summer.
Are those "BioWillie" stations? I really want to go to a BioWillie station.

Are those "BioWillie" stations? I really want to go to a BioWillie station.

Umm, no. Sorry man.

Human fat is the way to go.

Human fat is the way to go.

If you are on the side of good you burn it by riding a bicycle.

If you are on the side of evil you burn it in your car engine.

Since I am beyond good and evil I burn car engines inside fat people.

If you are on the side of good you burn it by riding a bicycle.

If you are on the side of evil you burn it in your car engine.

Since I am beyond good and evil I burn car engines inside fat people.
What Browser do you use?

Ah, yes, the most impractical solution to peak oil there is.

Ah, yes, the most impractical solution to peak oil there is.
Ah, now-clearly ignoring it and hoping it will go away is the most impractical. Or perhaps holding off and making wishes on things that haven't been developed while not doing what can be done now...

Critics point to how corn production consumes large amounts of fossil fuel with ecological side effects, like the New Jersey-sized "dead zone" in the Gulf of Mexico caused by nitrate-rich agricultural runoff from corn producing states up the Mississippi River.

But better from the Midwest than the Middle East, supporters say.

Let me quote the interesting part again:
Critics point to how corn production consumes large amounts of fossil fuel *snip* But better from the Midwest than the Middle East, supporters say.Where are the fossil fuels coming from? :confused:

Let me quote the interesting part again:
Where are the fossil fuels coming from? :confused:
Coal. It's earlier in the article. Used to be natural gas.

If you dig in your town wouldn't that give you geothermal instead of biodiesel?

If you dig in your town wouldn't that give you geothermal instead of biodiesel?
Give us time, punster.

Ah, now-clearly ignoring it and hoping it will go away is the most impractical. Or perhaps holding off and making wishes on things that haven't been developed while not doing what can be done now...
Or doing the wrong thing like spending billions of dollars on ethanol and biodeisel subsidies and research rather than spending billions on trains and other mass transit, which, of course is the single easiest and best solution right now. It will save more fossil fuels immediately than any other solution. Do you realize that some trains get as much as 400+ miles per gallon?

The busses in my old town ran on fish-oil biodiesel. For a while they had a problem with the stuff freezing during the Winter, but they fixed the mix somehow and thereafter it worked fine. I think it is super. A way to combine the use of biodiesel and me not having to drive.

Coal. It's earlier in the article. Used to be natural gas.
For the fertalizer, but how do they run the tractors and other farm equipment, how do the run the big deisel trucks that haul the corn to the distilleries which, in some cases, are nudreds of miles from the fields and then how do they run the tankers which carry the fuel to market?

Or doing the wrong thing like spending billions of dollars on ethanol and biodeisel subsidies and research rather than spending billions on trains and other mass transit, which, of course is the single easiest and best solution right now. It will save more fossil fuels immediately than any other solution. Do you realize that some trains get as much as 400+ miles per gallon?
Converting to a rail system takes time and a large societal shift, in that meantime might as well make the changes we can. And coming up with an alternate fuel that can also run those 400+mpg trains isn't a bad side effect.

For the fertalizer, but how do they run the tractors and other farm equipment, how do the run the big deisel trucks that haul the corn to the distilleries which, in some cases, are nudreds of miles from the fields and then how do they run the tankers which carry the fuel to market?
Presumably they would eventually run on the biofuel in the same way oil is used to transport oil.

EDIT: And in our case, the biodiesel is coming from Moss Landing, which isn't even 100 miles from us.

Converting to a rail system takes time and a large societal shift, in that meantime might as well make the changes we can. And coming up with an alternate fuel that can also run those 400+mpg trains isn't a bad side effect.
It also takes money. Money that could be gotten from these subsidies and government funded research. Research into alt fuels should be handled by the private sector because the private sector wouldn't be stupid enough to do it with corn. As for the time it takes, there is all kinds of defunct rail in the US that only needs to be rehabed to work. It makes no sense wasting time and money on solutions that will never work as well. The real solutions for us involve getting away from our car dominated lifestyle. We need to take all that money and spend it on rail.

Presumably they would eventually run on the biofuel in the same way oil is used to transport oil.

EDIT: And in our case, the biodiesel is coming from Moss Landing, which isn't even 100 miles from us.
That's where the distilery is. The article says teh corn is from the Midwest.

It also takes money. Money that could be gotten from these subsidies and government funded research. Research into alt fuels should be handled by the private sector because the private sector wouldn't be stupid enough to do it with corn. As for the time it takes, there is all kinds of defunct rail in the US that only needs to be rehabed to work. It makes no sense wasting time and money on solutions that will never work as well. The real solutions for us involve getting away from our car dominated lifestyle. We need to take all that money and spend it on rail.
In this instance it actually is private sector, and in Brazil they are using sugar cane. As for our use of ethonal (which was a side story here to the availability of biodiesel-ethonal was not even close to the main focus...), even we're going to ditch corn-
While Blume's station would initially run on corn-based ethanol made in the Midwest, he hopes to eventually open his own ethanol distillery in Santa Cruz County, ditching corn for woodchips and agricultural waste.

That's where the distilery is. The article says teh corn is from the Midwest.
You're conflating the two articles. Moss Landing is where the biodiesel comes from. You're now quoting the side story on ethonal.

Roussopoulos said he favors Pacific even when other suppliers offer lower prices because it's a local company.
Great. So by judging with product based on an irrelevent factor such as "localness" rather than on quality or price, they pass on the higher costs to you, the consumer, in exchange for no tangible benefit.

Great. So by judging with product based on an irrelevent factor such as "localness" rather than on quality or price, they pass on the higher costs to you, the consumer, in exchange for no tangible benefit.
The money stays local, enhancing local business. It's what made the County survive the tech bubble crash despite housing many a tech millionaire. While we where effected, not nearly as much as towns that relied on business' housed outside of our community.

The money stays local, enhancing local business. It's what made the County survive the tech bubble crash despite housing many a tech millionaire. While we where effected, not nearly as much as towns that relied on business' housed outside of our community.
It stays in the area, but you have less of it and others have more in return for which you gain almost nothing. In essense, you're just subsidising jobs - a practice that loses money in the long term.

It stays in the area, but you have less of it and others have more in return for which you gain almost nothing. In essense, you're just subsidising jobs - a practice that loses money in the long term.
We're subsidising a company that has a vested interest in the local community, which has it's own dividends. Local is a big deal around here, not just in bio-fuels. We have a handful of chain stores, but the only ones who go there are tourists. (seems stupid to me, to go all this way just to go to a store you have down the street, but whatever) The city does quite well, and like I said, survived the storm a lot better than others did.

In this instance it actually is private sector, and in Brazil they are using sugar cane. As for our use of ethonal (which was a side story here to the availability of biodiesel-ethonal was not even close to the main focus...), even we're going to ditch corn-
First, you're right. I need to be more clear. Biodeisel is something I'm not opposed to so much because it isn't as heavily subsidized by the government and it is made from a variety of sources, but recognize that switching the entire passenger car fleet of North America, some 200 million vehicles, is a gargantuan undertaking on the level of building and rehabilitating the rail system of the US. We gain a lot more from the latter so our government should focus on that. I do like the idea of private companies producing their own biodeisel for sale, though. Ethanol, on the other hand, is a huge load of bullshit. The only reason we use it at all is because teh government hides the energy sink under a load of subsidies. We make it from the wrong thing and even if we start to make it from the right things we'll never be able to ramp up production of it to a level that can support the mass motoring way of life we have become accustomed to. Our only real solution to the impending energy crisis is conservation and this means mass transit, first and foremost, so any dollar spent on ethanol instead of rail is a wasted dollar.

First, you're right. I need to be more clear. Biodeisel is something I'm not opposed to so much because it isn't as heavily subsidized by the government and it is made from a variety of sources, but recognize that switching the entire passenger car fleet of North America, some 200 million vehicles, is a gargantuan undertaking on the level of building and rehabilitating the rail system of the US. We gain a lot more from the latter so our government should focus on that. I do like the idea of private companies producing their own biodeisel for sale, though. Ethanol, on the other hand, is a huge load of bullshit. The only reason we use it at all is because teh government hides the energy sink under a load of subsidies. We make it from the wrong thing and even if we start to make it from the right things we'll never be able to ramp up production of it to a level that can support the mass motoring way of life we have become accustomed to. Our only real solution to the impending energy crisis is conservation and this means mass transit, first and foremost, so any dollar spent on ethanol instead of rail is a wasted dollar.
We wouldn't have to convert every car, but it would be nice if the overwhelming number of diesels that are available in Europe where made available here. Though, and I don't have a link to this stat that I read, we introduced 84% more diesel models this year and sales for diesels increased 80%, so we're introducing right with demand.

Like I quoted and said in the opening post, it's not going to save the world but it's a little bit, and if more people did a little then that would be a lot. Certainly there are changes that have to be made on the drastic, but there is an until then that we don't have to keep driving off the cliff during.

Just the other day the municipal government here announced that it was extending the local Light Rail Transit system. By 2009 it will go up from the current 8km of track to almost 23km. Even better, it will serve the downtown core, which will make it a lot more useful. The train itself is diesel-run, rather than electric. It would be neat if they were able to use biodiesel in it and make the whole thing even more environmentally friendly.

The money stays local, enhancing local business. It's what made the County survive the tech bubble crash despite housing many a tech millionaire. While we where effected, not nearly as much as towns that relied on business' housed outside of our community.


When product comes localy, you save fuel transporting it to where in needs to go. So whether the trucks run on biodiesel or ethonol makes a little less difference. Money is then saved by the consumer.

Still on another note. Ethonol is great and fine and dandy but has a major draw back. It takes a whole crap load of corn/ other agricultural products to make. It's not a very efficent prosess when that land could be used to feed people. Enviromentaly great sure but using by products to run vehicles like fish oil, over used potatoe chip oil and fast food greese is far better. (i saw the last two on discovery channel) so im not making it up.

Just the other day the municipal government here announced that it was extending the local Light Rail Transit system. By 2009 it will go up from the current 8km of track to almost 23km. Even better, it will serve the downtown core, which will make it a lot more useful. The train itself is diesel-run, rather than electric. It would be neat if they were able to use biodiesel in it and make the whole thing even more environmentally friendly.
That would all depend on whether the biodiesel would be cleaner and more renewable soup to nuts than electricity. If it's not, then they really should use the electricity. Depends on how they get electricity there, I guess.

If you are on the side of good you burn it by riding a bicycle.

If you are on the side of evil you burn it in your car engine.

Since I am beyond good and evil I burn car engines inside fat people.
Isn't that backwards? Wouldn't it be more efficient to burn fat people inside car engines? Of course, I'm 5'10" and 250, so maybe I ought to shut up and hide now.

When product comes localy, you save fuel transporting it to where in needs to go. So whether the trucks run on biodiesel or ethonol makes a little less difference. Money is then saved by the consumer.

Still on another note. Ethonol is great and fine and dandy but has a major draw back. It takes a whole crap load of corn to make. It's not a very efficent prosess when that land could be used to feed people. Enviromentaly great sure but using by products to run vehicles like fish oil, over used potatoe chip oil and fast food greese is far better. (i saw the last two on discovery channel) so im not making it up.
Actually, to catch you up-ethanol has some massive environmental draw backs that we have been discussing here, and the last part you are talking about is bio-diesel which is, as the opening post indicates, now available here at two stations.

There are straight vegetable oil cars here as well, with a co-op that pools the waste vegetable oil from our many restaurants. That's actually the plan for my vanagon.

That would all depend on whether the biodiesel would be cleaner and more renewable soup to nuts than electricity. If it's not, then they really should use the electricity. Depends on how they get electricity there, I guess.
The government claims to be phasing out coal power plants... But they are not in a very big hurry to actually close any. They also have yet to explain what will replace the coal stations. Regardless, I am not sure they can just switch the LRT to electrical power. I think they would have to buy new trains for that, and they do not have the funding for doing so.

There are straight vegetable oil cars here as well, with a co-op that pools the waste vegetable oil from our many restaurants. That's actually the plan for my vanagon.
A friend of a friend had a car like that. It ran on grease from McDonald's. Finally, a use for the place... ;)

Isn't that backwards? Wouldn't it be more efficient to burn fat people inside car engines? Of course, I'm 5'10" and 250, so maybe I ought to shut up and hide now.

Thats true it would but that way the car engine would still spit out emissions and thats not good:p so if you burn car engines inside fat people thats one less car engine and one less hungery fat person:)

The government claims to be phasing out coal power plants... But they are not in a very big hurry to actually close any. They also have yet to explain what will replace the coal stations. Regardless, I am not sure they can just switch the LRT to electrical power. I think they would have to buy new trains for that, and they do not have the funding for doing so.


I live in Calgary Alberta, Major oil producing city, our economy runs on the stuff. But our LRT dosent. It's powered by a relativley small windfarm a little ways out of the city. The LRT is packed full everyday with commuters going to work to avoid traffic. In a city of 1 million people it's no New York but it has suprisingly environmental ways. They're even expanding the LRT.

The government claims to be phasing out coal power plants... But they are not in a very big hurry to actually close any. They also have yet to explain what will replace the coal stations. Regardless, I am not sure they can just switch the LRT to electrical power. I think they would have to buy new trains for that, and they do not have the funding for doing so.


A friend of a friend had a car like that. It ran on grease from McDonald's. Finally, a use for the place... ;)
In Brazil (what is it about that country?) McDonalds is actually experimenting with running it's fleet of trucks off its own waste grease. Which I think if they do here would make hippies heads explode, they'd want to encourage use of waste-oil made fuel but not deforesting or any of the other ills of McDonalds. It'd be fun to watch the internal struggle.