NationStates Jolt Archive

Interestingly, we had a saying in the Army. If they have decided they have enough evidence to court martial, they have you.

The conviction rate is well over 90 percent.

That is quite high alright.

I don't really see the need for the shackles tbh.

(using 'chains' gives off a completely different connotation- I'm assuming the shackles are similar to those used in Federal type institutions while transporting prisoners)

That is quite high alright.

I don't really see the need for the shackles tbh.

(using 'chains' gives off a completely different connotation- I'm assuming the shackles are similar to those used in Federal type institutions while transporting prisoners)

Most prisoners in VA are transported with shackles. I don't see a problem with them.

Much more comfortable than a remote stun belt, which civilians in VA also use for prisoner control.

Most prisoners in VA are transported with shackles. I don't see a problem with them.

Much more comfortable than a remote stun belt, which civilians in VA also use for prisoner control.

Fair enough, but I doubt the Marines are going anywhere.

How do you know its much more comfortable then a remote stun belt.... ? ;) :p

Fair enough, but I doubt the Marines are going anywhere.

How do you know its much more comfortable then a remote stun belt.... ? ;) :p

Seen one used in criminal court. He was a client of a friend of mine.

Imagine getting your groin and lower back electrified.

Some back ground

The American Dream

Lt. Ilario Pantano’s story of the American Dream is something out of a Disney movie. The son of an Italian immigrant, he earned a scholarship to the prestigious Horace Mann High School and worked part time on the USS Intrepid. He then enlisted in the Marine Corps, earned sergeants stripes, and served with honor in Operation Desert Storm.

After his enlistment was up he got a degree from NYU, worked for Goldman Sachs, and then in the communications field. To top off the storybook life, he was engaged to a fashion model and planned to start a family.

Then came September 11, 2001. The firehouse in Pantano’s Manhattan neighborhood lost 11 firefighters, four of whom had claimed the title Marine. 3,000 of his countryman were killed in a single morning. Clearly the nation was going to war and at age 30, his duty to country more than already fulfilled, Pantano put his perfect life on hold and earned an officer’s commission in the Marine Corps.

Platoon Commander

Last April with the insurgency at its height and operating on intelligence given by captured terrorists, Pantano led his platoon to conduct a search of a suspected bomb factory. Two suspected terrorists were caught trying to flee. While being searched they began excitedly shouting to each other in Arabic. Pantano could not understand what they were saying but did use his limited Arabic vocabulary to command them to “Stop!” 9/11 and the war on Iraq has taught us that the weapon of choice for the terrorist enemy is often themselves. Lt. Pantano knew this. Moreover, Marine Corps doctrine states that silencing Enemy Prisoners of War (EPWs) is crucial to the safe handling of EPWs.

Training, experience, intel reports, and instinct told the two war Marine that this communication from purported terrorist bomb makers was putting his platoon in mortal danger. Pantano acted decisively and eliminated this grave threat to his men by killing the enemy.

Other than a disgruntled sergeant removed from his squad leader position by Pantano shortly before the incident, Pantano’s unit supports his version of the story. In fact, the initial investigation at the field level cleared Pantano and he continued to effectively lead his platoon in combat operations for the rest of their tour.

A Navy corpsman (medic) was an eyewitness to the incident and corroborates Pantano’s version of the threat posed by the suspects who disobeyed Pantano’s order to stop communicating. Many of Ilario’s superiors and subordinates have come to his defense, praising his character and leadership.
The biggest threat our brave servicemen face in Iraq is the roadside bomb. Lt. Illario Pantano killed two bomb-makers and beginning Monday he goes on trial, literally to save his life. Still Congress refuses to act.

Dangerous Precedent

As an Operation Iraqi Freedom veteran and enlisted Marine still serving in the Reserves, to me the case of Ilario Pantano is disheartening. I wonder as I’m sure most in the military now do: if an officer with a sterling record like Lt. Pantano can be second guessed from Washington despite being cleared of wrongdoing at the field level, what could happen to me or one of my buddies?

Lt. Pantano faces death for a decision made in combat, at the height of the war, in an area that is still so dangerous that the bodies of the dead terrorists cannot be retrieved for evidence purposes. This absurd decision to prosecute Pantano makes the incredibly arduous job of war fighting more difficult and more deadly because it invites hesitation and defensiveness on the part of the warrior.

Despite the obvious injustice of trying an authentic American Hero like Ilario Pantano, even the leaders in his home state refuse to come to his aid. A North Carolina Congressman has introduced a resolution to support Pantano and written a letter to the President asking him to intervene. I have conducted exhaustive research and know of no member of New York’s Congressional delegation who has publicly expressed support for Pantano.

How could the same state that sent a brave and selfless hero to war also sent a band of self-serving cowards to Washington?



I would love to find ONE liberal frigin defender....but I cant ...they do not seem to exist...and you know what THAT FUCKING SUCKS .


Mr. Murtha's Rush to Judgment
Sunday, May 28, 2006

A year ago I was charged with two counts of premeditated murder and with other war crimes related to my service in Iraq. My wife and mother sat in a Camp Lejeune courtroom for five days while prosecutors painted me as a monster; then autopsy evidence blew their case out of the water, and the Marine Corps dropped all charges against me.

So I know something about rushing to judgment, which is why I am so disturbed by the remarks of Rep. John P. Murtha (D-Pa.) regarding the Haditha incident. Mr. Murtha said, "Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood."

In the United States, we have a civil and military court system that relies on an investigatory and judicial process to make determinations based on evidence. The system is not served by such grand pronouncements of horror and guilt without the accuser even having read the investigative report.

Mr. Murtha's position is particularly suspect when he is quoted by news services as saying that the strain of deployment "has caused them [the Marines] to crack in situations like this." Not only is he certain of the Marines' guilt but he claims to know the cause, which he conveniently attributes to a policy he opposes.

Members of the U.S. military serving in Iraq need more than Mr. Murtha's pseudo-sympathy. They need leaders to stand with them even in the hardest of times. Let the courts decide if these Marines are guilty. They haven't even been charged with a crime yet, so it is premature to presume their guilt -- unless that presumption is tied to a political motive.

ILARIO PANTANO
Jacksonville, N.C.

The writer served as a Marine enlisted man in the Persian Gulf War and most recently as a platoon commander in Iraq.

This is the only commentary I will post on this issue.

You also have no idea what you are talking about.
The military is NOT populated by only the poor.
There are middle class as well as upper class in the ranks of the military.
To say otherwise is either a lie or you are just drinking the koolaid.

College graduates are underrepresented in the military's enlisted ranks. Although Blacks are still overrepresented in the military relative to youth population proportions, Hispanics are underrepresented despite their growing population counts. Today, Blacks make up 19.6 percent of the military and 26.7 percent of the Army - higher than their share of the general population. Women comprise approximately 18 percent of new recruits and 14 percent of the active duty enlisted force. The ratio of Congressional members with military service has declined from more than 75 percent in 1971 to less than 34 percent for the 106th Congress.

Both the poor and the wealthy are underrepresented in the military.

Imagine getting your groin and lower back electrified.

....

I think my testicles have retracted upwards.

College graduates are underrepresented in the military's enlisted ranks. Although Blacks are still overrepresented in the military relative to youth population proportions, Hispanics are underrepresented despite their growing population counts. Today, Blacks make up 19.6 percent of the military and 26.7 percent of the Army - higher than their share of the general population. Women comprise approximately 18 percent of new recruits and 14 percent of the active duty enlisted force. The ratio of Congressional members with military service has declined from more than 75 percent in 1971 to less than 34 percent for the 106th Congress.

Both the poor and the wealthy are underrepresented in the military.

Actually, if you look by military occupational specialty, college graduates are overrepresented in enlisted infantry (that is, riflemen).

Mostly because the infantry, especially airborne and light infantry, attracts adventurous risk-takers who do not see the Army as a career. Most of the other specialties, such as supply, are seen as preparation for a civilian career by the less educated.

When I was in the 2/502nd, 3 out of 4 enlisted men had a 4-year degree or higher.

When you put ordinary kids in extraodinary conditions, what do you expect? They walk around wondering "who's gonna try to blow me up with their homemade jock strap bomb today?" Paranoia breeds murder sometimes.

I might add that Special Forces units, the Rangers, and most light infantry units have fewer black soldiers than you see in other units (such as armor).

Support the Troops.

A fine notion, and one that America has not truly embraced since WWII. There were plenty of troops to support in-between now and then. I attended Support the Troops rallies during Desert Storm, including one on Biscayne Boulevard in Downtown Miami. Now the only rallies we see there are the anti-war rallies run by socialist/communists who consider America to be the enemy.

But, there are all those magnets. All those people who claim to support the troops. Spend your $5.00, stick it on the back of your vehicle and go on your merry way, doing all the day to day things in your life made possible by those very same troops.

What if... what if you met one of those troops face to face. One of those troops who spent several nights sleeping in a hollow in the sand, like those pictures you saw last year in your email? One of those troops who went door to door in Fallujah, under fire by terrorists. One of those troops who fired back, protecting himself, his unit, and yes, protecting you in the process.

Would you show him your magnet?


During the peak of insurgent violence in mid April of 2004, hundreds of Marines and soldiers were being killed and wounded throughout the "Sunni Triangle." Terrorists, captured while trying to recover a vehicle used in an earlier attack on the Marines, had given detailed information about a supply of weapons and terrorist hideout.

Marine Second Lieutenant Ilario Pantano and his platoon were hastily dispatched to search. Their search revealed weapons, ammunition, mortar equipment, bomb-making material and two fleeing terrorists. In an ensuing search of the terrorists’ vehicle, Lt. Pantano, concerned for his safety and the safety of his men, shot them both in self defense and then disabled their vehicle so it could not be used in further attacks. He and his men went on to fight with distinction and honor in Fallujah and the surrounding areas and, when possible, aided in the reconstruction effort.

Marine Second Lieutenant Ilario Pantano now faces a murder charge for his actions in Fallujah, actions that not only saved his life, but the lives of his men and, the lives of countless innocent Iraqi civilians.

There is no doubt in my mind or my heart, or my conscience that Marine Second Lieutenant Ilario Pantano was right to do what he did. His life was indeed in danger, his men were in danger, his mission was in danger.

Marine Second Lieutenant Ilario Pantano is many things. An American. A Marine. A husband. A son. A father. One thing Marine Second Lieutenant Ilario Pantano is not. He is not a criminal.

Marine Second Lieutenant Ilario Pantano deserves the very best defense against these charges that America has to offer. Will he get it? I hope so, and I am sure you hope so too.

But, like the magnets on the back of all those cars, hope is not going to do much to support this Marine and the other troops like him, who are caught up as pawns in the leftist agenda to punish the troops who are doing their duty and protecting this Country.

I urge you to do a little more then just hope that this Marine is adequately defended against this ridiculous charge. Please head over to DefendTheDefenders.org and help. Put your money where your mouth is. Send the price of a magnet if that's all you can afford. But send something.

Support the Troops. Semper Fi!




I need to check that defend the defenders is still in business...in this country you never know...its alright to send them out to be killed...but God forbid we give them any rights...


Nope ...guess it was only for him..

http://www.lindasog.com/archives/2005/02/defend_the_defenders.html

Thats because you cant read or you care not to read my many post fighting for tribunals and determinations and judicial oversight for all the detainees held by the US ...anywhere .

Care to provide a link to your statements? If you can point me in the direction backing this, my statement no longer applies.


I guess you failed to notice this info on the DETAINEES .


Is that info on ALL detainees or just the few that were actually trumpeted as representative of all detainees? I see only specific cases. There's a difference.

i dont condone their actions but i wouldnt punish them
*ducks into fox hole

It's an unwritten rule. United States military are always right, and any brown-skinned Muslim is always wrong.

It's an unwritten rule. United States military are always right, and any brown-skinned Muslim is always wrong.


Are really that much of an idiot or are you just trolling for fun ?

All the brownskin Muslims in the US military may take issue with you .

You know, I really haven't read much into this particular news topic, but I'd like to congratulate the author of if it was his intention to include the following phrase into the topic title:

"...the Marines involved in the Haditha Incident?"

This simple phrase implies that the Marines involved in the Haditha Incident are the ones to blame, rather than the entirety of the Marine Corps, the United States Military, or the American People as a whole.

Thank you.

Care to provide a link to your statements? If you can point me in the direction backing this, my statement no longer applies.



Is that info on ALL detainees or just the few that were actually trumpeted as representative of all detainees? I see only specific cases. There's a difference.


Excuse me ? You missed this part ?

UNCLASSIFIED Current as of March 4, 2005UNCLASSIFIED1JTF-GTMO Information on DetaineesINFORMATION FROM GUANTANAMO DETAINEES The US Government currently maintains custody of approximately 550 enemy combatants in the Global War on Terrorism at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. etc. and describes them all...as to type etc.

And in the other GTMO threads I made my feelings quite clear as to how detainee's should be dealt with . And some form of due process with OVERSIGHT by civilians ..US civilians ..Judges or a commision made up of Judges. tribunals are a start and IMO are called for under the geneva convention..in article 4 .

Unlawfull combatants however...terrorist in other words..what rights do they have except to be imprisoned and for how long ? Until the war on terror is over or for as long as a military court decides ?

Unlawfull combatants however...terrorist in other words..what rights do they have except to be imprisoned and for how long ?
for the Iraquis.. US soldiers in Iraq are unlawfull combatans.

...I just know a lot of people are going to radically change their opinion of me for this...

Okay, so we have an incident where quite a few civilians died in cold blood. Marines allegedly were at fault here. It has, however, not yet been proven in a court of law. So why are we villifying them? For all we know, they could be completely innocent! There could be a completely different explanation for what happened. Do I personally believe that? No. But I will defend them until they are proven guilty. I don't incriminate people on account of what has been alleged, and those that do need to try actually examining the facts for once.

Did you vilify Saddam Houssein before he was found guilty?

Are really that much of an idiot or are you just trolling for fun ?

All the brownskin Muslims in the US military may take issue with you .

Sort of like how black soldiers in US military history would take issue with fighting for a country that thinks little of their kind? Sort of like how Nisei volunteer units who wanted to prove that they weren't buck-teethed yellow-skinned Imperialist spies for Japan would take issues?

Let's address this a little more carefully, shall we?

Let's clear up some myths;

1. Military service members have the same Constitutional rights as ordinary citizens.

No, they do not. You voluntarily give up a goodly number of your rights when you sign your enlistment contract or accept a commission.

2. The Geneva Prisoner of War Treaty does not cover non-uniformed personnel, and those who take up arms without benefit of a formal military structure are spies and saboteurs and may be summarily judged and executed by a field tribunal.

Partly true, but interpretations presented here are misleading. It is a reasonably well accepted practice that without direct evidence of such activities, soldiers and officers may only kill an armed civilian under specific rules of engagement. Self-defense is always a legal option, and field tribunals are strongly discouraged.

------------------------------------------------------------

Marines and soldiers can be held in solitary confinement if they are considered a flight risk, are being held in that state to prevent communication with each other (to prevent them making up a story and support each other's statements), or any other reason in which the convening authority in their judgement deems such confinement necessary.

I would venture to guess that these Marines and the Corpsman have strong evidence against them that is not public yet. I simply cannot fathom the Marine Corps holding innocent Marines in such a state.

Let's all take a deep breath and wait for the Marine Corps to proceed with their case.

Point is they are not up on charges. That's the point :rolleyes:
Well they should be!

Did you vilify Saddam Houssein before he was found guilty?
That is a fine question, my female cake friend. I would like to say that there is a difference, that there is a great deal more evidence for people like Saddam Hussien to be guilty and therefore it is fair, but you're right: it's hypocritical of me to villify anyone, even the truly obvious ones like Saddam.

So, I suppose I should recognize that and avoid villifying anyone in the future. Does that fix my hypocrisy? I hope it does. I hate being hypocritical.

You know, I really haven't read much into this particular news topic, but I'd like to congratulate the author of if it was his intention to include the following phrase into the topic title:

"...the Marines involved in the Haditha Incident?"

This simple phrase implies that the Marines involved in the Haditha Incident are the ones to blame, rather than the entirety of the Marine Corps, the United States Military, or the American People as a whole.

Thank you.
Well, that's a given. Anyone who thinks this is typical of the military as a whole or the American people as a whole is an ignorant fool who would rather believe in stereotypes and prejudices--the exact thing said person would accuse Americans of--than in examining the facts.

I would venture to guess that these Marines and the Corpsman have strong evidence against them that is not public yet. I simply cannot fathom the Marine Corps holding innocent Marines in such a state.


They held an accused platoon leader in such a state for five weeks, and vilified him in the press before forensic evidence (DNA) proved he wasn't involved in another incident.

It's par for the course.

Let's address this a little more carefully, shall we?

Let's clear up some myths;

1. Military service members have the same Constitutional rights as ordinary citizens.

No, they do not. You voluntarily give up a goodly number of your rights when you sign your enlistment contract or accept a commission.

2. The Geneva Prisoner of War Treaty does not cover non-uniformed personnel, and those who take up arms without benefit of a formal military structure are spies and saboteurs and may be summarily judged and executed by a field tribunal.

Partly true, but interpretations presented here are misleading. It is a reasonably well accepted practice that without direct evidence of such activities, soldiers and officers may only kill an armed civilian under specific rules of engagement. Self-defense is always a legal option, and field tribunals are strongly discouraged.

------------------------------------------------------------

Marines and soldiers can be held in solitary confinement if they are considered a flight risk, are being held in that state to prevent communication with each other (to prevent them making up a story and support each other's statements), or any other reason in which the convening authority in their judgement deems such confinement necessary.

I would venture to guess that these Marines and the Corpsman have strong evidence against them that is not public yet. I simply cannot fathom the Marine Corps holding innocent Marines in such a state.

Let's all take a deep breath and wait for the Marine Corps to proceed with their case.


Its the first time EVER this particular method has been used , according to the Retired Marine General that is part of their legal team . Yes according to the law the military has an extreme amount of latitude on the way they treat their soldiers ...IRONIC considering the crying and wailing comming out over GTMO and treatment of detainees .
By appearances they have made it clear that these guys are GUILTY until proven innocent .
In your own words...you think they must have strong evidence against them..that no one else knows about..for them to be treated in such a fashion.

I say fuck that . I dont put my life on the line to defend the US and its constitution to get it shoved up my ass with a sandpaper collar .
It cant be sugar coated ...Just because they can is no excuse...its fucking WRONG .

Its the first time EVER this particular method has been used , according to the Retired Marine General that is part of their legal team . Yes according to the law the military has an extreme amount of latitude on the way they treat their soldiers ...IRONIC considering the crying and wailing comming out over GTMO and treatment of detainees .
By appearances they have made it clear that these guys are GUILTY until proven innocent .
In your own words...you think they must have strong evidence against them..that no one else knows about..for them to be treated in such a fashion.

I did not say I approved of the way these Marines are being treated. In fact, if true then it is pretty extreme and damned unusual.

Do not toss up Gitmo in my face, son. I know what's going on there and it's a seperate issue.

Finally, I stated that in order for such treatment to occur that the Marine Corps would have to have strong evidence against these Marines to justify the treatment that we don't know about. Otherwise it is syptomatic of DoD leadership that doesn't know it's head from it's hindquarters. It would make the Commandant of the Corps and the Secretary of the Navy complicit.


I say fuck that . I dont put my life on the line to defend the US and its constitution to get it shoved up my ass with a sandpaper collar .
It cant be sugar coated ...Just because they can is no excuse...its fucking WRONG .

Life is not fair. You can't have it both ways. You tacitly agreed with the methods they use at Abu-Ghraib and Gitmo on uncharged detainees, and now you are surprised they are using the very same method on US soldiers and Marines? I always feared some people were going to get a rude awakening when they finally realized this President and his appointees are not friends of the military.

So, where have you been? They've been using the Constitution as toilet paper for over 4 years and you just realize this?

They held an accused platoon leader in such a state for five weeks, and vilified him in the press before forensic evidence (DNA) proved he wasn't involved in another incident.

It's par for the course.

Really? So now you JUST realize that this Adminstration and their tactics are unAmerican, unConstitutional and wrong?

When it was "foreigners" you were perfectly willing to let the abuses go as far as they could, and you defended the bastards who are in Washington perpetrating those crimes. But the minute it's American service members, boom!, you go right off.

Nice timing.

Really? So now you JUST realize that this Adminstration and their tactics are unAmerican, unConstitutional and wrong?

When it was "foreigners" you were perfectly willing to let the abuses go as far as they could, and you defended the bastards who are in Washington perpetrating those crimes. But the minute it's American service members, boom!, you go right off.

Nice timing.

I think you misinterpret my post.

You'll notice that I'm not "going right off" about this. Nor am I "defending" them (although, according to the UCMJ, they are entitled to a presumption of innocence prior to the trial).

You also mistake me for someone who clings to an ideology - when all I look at is the letter, not the spirit, of the law.

In both cases, whether it's the soldiers in question, or detainees at Guantanamo, it's the "letter" of the law that is being observed.

Detainees at Guantanamo, according to Geneva Convention I, Article II, have no protections under the Conventions. The fact that we give them any is a technical violation of the Conventions.

As for the Marines, this is the usual form that military justice takes.

Appearances of being "Pro-Military" does not a "Pro-Military" person make. Republicans as a general rule increase military spending, but the treatment of the military is a whole other issue. Treatment of the military is something wholly unrelated to politics. Making overtures of "military friendliness" only to sell the public on a war for political gain does not a friend of the military make. I'd sooner trust a democrat like FDR or Truman over Bush with the treatment of our military (sadly Roosevelt and Truman democrats seem to be getting rarer and rarer these days).


That said I will say that so long as Bush is Commander in Chief I will suck it up and deal.


When it comes to the Patriot Act though I can voice all the dissent I want because that is an act of Congress, and they really F***** up there. I am STILL waiting for the Supreme Court to get their heads out of their a**** and over turn this unconstitutional obscenity.

NT

I did not say I approved of the way these Marines are being treated. In fact, if true then it is pretty extreme and damned unusual.

Do not toss up Gitmo in my face, son. I know what's going on there and it's a seperate issue.

Finally, I stated that in order for such treatment to occur that the Marine Corps would have to have strong evidence against these Marines to justify the treatment that we don't know about. Otherwise it is syptomatic of DoD leadership that doesn't know it's head from it's hindquarters. It would make the Commandant of the Corps and the Secretary of the Navy complicit.



Life is not fair. You can't have it both ways. You tacitly agreed with the methods they use at Abu-Ghraib and Gitmo on uncharged detainees, and now you are surprised they are using the very same method on US soldiers and Marines? I always feared some people were going to get a rude awakening when they finally realized this President and his appointees are not friends of the military.

So, where have you been? They've been using the Constitution as toilet paper for over 4 years and you just realize this?


You must have me confused with someone who actually believes in and agrees with RUMMY and his efforts to change the military and whats going on with the treatment of detainees SIR .
In all due respect I do not aggree with it and think the US should lead the world in the way it treats prisoners and in the way its military operates and presents itself proffesionaly .

And I am not only not suprised ..but I am sickened at these chicken shit paper pushers and their reactionary way of running an operation.
As much as I would like to believe in the Corp's leadership....they are on a severe credibility deficit because THEY HAVE been dead wrong in the past ...on so called ..STRONG ..evidence .

If I come off a bit pissed off its because I am . I come from a military family that has served for generations...and I was around to see the SHABBY treatment the veterans recieved durring and after the Vietnam war.
Never again . These men deserve our support ..whats more they have earned it by putting themselves someplace we can not and doing things we can not do . And risking their lives doing it .
The least we can give them is THE BENIFIT OF THE DOUBT . And the PRESUMPTION of innocence .

That SIR ..is what I am PISSED about .

You must have me confused with someone who actually believes in and agrees with RUMMY and his efforts to change the military and whats going on with the treatment of detainees SIR .
In all due respect I do not aggree with it and think the US should lead the world in the way it treats prisoners and in the way its military operates and presents itself proffesionaly .

And I am not only not suprised ..but I am sickened at these chicken shit paper pushers and their reactionary way of running an operation.
As much as I would like to believe in the Corp's leadership....they are on a severe credibility deficit because THEY HAVE been dead wrong in the past ...on so called ..STRONG ..evidence .

If I come off a bit pissed off its because I am . I come from a military family that has served for generations...and I was around to see the SHABBY treatment the veterans recieved durring and after the Vietnam war.
Never again . These men deserve our support ..whats more they have earned it by putting themselves someplace we can not and doing things we can not do . And risking their lives doing it .
The least we can give them is THE BENIFIT OF THE DOUBT . And the PRESUMPTION of innocence .

That SIR ..is what I am PISSED about .

Now that I can respect.

My family has served in the US military since WWI and I have never seen such a sad, pathetic bunch of bullshit artists as what we have today. These bastards have been riding the wave of support that people have for the men and women serving in the military, pretending to give a shit.

The sad thing is that the serving enlisted and officer corps cannot say a thing about it by the very rules we must obey.

Yes, those Marines and the Navy Corpsman deserve better, and you have my sincerest apology for the presumption on my part about your deep rooted feelings about this Administration.

We now have a responsibility, it is incumbent upon us to force political change in this country.


Detainees at Guantanamo, according to Geneva Convention I, Article II, have no protections under the Conventions. The fact that we give them any is a technical violation of the Conventions.

As for the Marines, this is the usual form that military justice takes.

You keep going back to the GPW. No, it is NOT a violation of the GPW to give better treatment to prisoners than they are entitled to. It doesn't work that way. It is violation of the Rules of Land Warfare to round up civilians and imprison them on the suspicion of being spies and saboteurs without credible evidence. This is clearly understood. Line officers are given clear instruction on the Rules of Engagement.

It is not an ordinary situation to just round up citizens off the street. I do not buy the argument the government makes about these prisoners. The key here is that NONE of these people have been charged. If there is credible, legal evidence, charge them and keep them imprisoned until they face a trial or tribunal and answer to the charges. I repeat, it does not take much effort to draw up a charge sheet.

Keeping civilians incarcerated without charging them does not meet any standard of jurisprudence I know of, either military or civilian.

The Navy Department needs to stand and deliver on these Marines. They best have bulletproof evidence to keep these kids in solitary and in chains, because even they are not immune to charges of unlawful imprisonment.

Now that I can respect.

My family has served in the US military since WWI and I have never seen such a sad, pathetic bunch of bullshit artists as what we have today. These bastards have been riding the wave of support that people have for the men and women serving in the military, pretending to give a shit.

The sad thing is that the serving enlisted and officer corps cannot say a thing about it by the very rules we must obey.

Yes, those Marines and the Navy Corpsman deserve better, and you have my sincerest apology for the presumption on my part about your deep rooted feelings about this Administration.

We now have a responsibility, it is incumbent upon us to force political change in this country.



You keep going back to the GPW. No, it is NOT a violation of the GPW to give better treatment to prisoners than they are entitled to. It doesn't work that way. It is violation of the Rules of Land Warfare to round up civilians and imprison them on the suspicion of being spies and saboteurs without credible evidence. This is clearly understood. Line officers are given clear instruction on the Rules of Engagement.

It is not an ordinary situation to just round up citizens off the street. I do not buy the argument the government makes about these prisoners. The key here is that NONE of these people have been charged. If there is credible, legal evidence, charge them and keep them imprisoned until they face a trial or tribunal and answer to the charges. I repeat, it does not take much effort to draw up a charge sheet.

Keeping civilians incarcerated without charging them does not meet any standard of jurisprudence I know of, either military or civilian.

The Navy Department needs to stand and deliver on these Marines. They best have bulletproof evidence to keep these kids in solitary and in chains, because even they are not immune to charges of unlawful imprisonment.



We do DESERVE better options than ..KERRY or BUSH.

GOD help us if the Democrats cant find a better form of life than Kerry .
And we can only hope we have learned from BUSH and his crowd of morons .
I give Bush credit for his balls and conviction and his vision...but his choice of ..well fucking idiots he has working for him is the only way I can actually judge him as a President ..not a person .. as a LEADER he sucks . I think you know where I am comming from..you judge the man at the top by who he has working for him . I do not have the time nor the effort in me to even start throwing bombs...


But the alternative would have been a near total disaster ...and thats a scary thought .

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