NationStates Jolt Archive

PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - A sign in a landmark Philadelphia
restaurant asking customers to order in English is sparking
controversy in the metropolis known as the "City of Brotherly
Love."

The owner of Geno's Steaks said on Thursday that the sign,
"This is America -- when ordering speak English," is intended
to encourage immigrants to learn the language and assimilate
into U.S. society, but one Latino activist said it's racist.

The controversy comes amid a national debate over
immigration in the United States. The U.S. Senate passed an
immigration bill last month that includes a provision which
would make English the national language.

"They should be glad that I put the sign up. I'm trying to
help them to speak English," said Joey Vento, 66, whose
grandparents moved to the United States from Italy. "Without
the English language, they are going to have a lot of problems
in this country.

"There is nobody who can say they are turned down because
of the language," he added. "They can point if they want to."

The sign, which Vento posted at his cheese steak restaurant
about six months ago and says he has no intention of removing,
has made some people angry.

Roberto Santiago, executive director of Philadelphia's
Council of Spanish Speaking Organizations, said he was
"appalled" by the policy.

"I think what's coming out of his mouth is racist," said
Santiago. "He is saying, 'I don't like these brown faces in my
community and I will do everything I can to get them out of
there."'

Santiago said he has urged Latinos to boycott Geno's
Steaks, a fixture in South Philadelphia's Little Italy
neighborhood which has seen an influx of Hispanic immigrants in
recent years.

Vento denied that anyone would be refused service if they
ordered one of the sliced beef-and-cheese sandwiches, a famed
bit of cuisine in the Quaker-founded "City of Brotherly Love,"
in a language other than English.

Tony Luke, co-owner of competitor Tony Luke's restaurant,
said Vento has taken "too much of a hard line" with
non-English-speaking customers.

"You can't be expected to learn English in a week," he
said. "We will be a lot more tolerant than that."


Does anyone find this as ridiculous as I do? I don't think he is racist at all.

Apparently one Latino thinks english is too complicated for latino immigrants to learn.

Well, I would like every American to learn German when going to Oktoberfest, or Italian if they want to go to rome, or spanish if they are going to cancun. This kind of stuff is bullshit.

I don't see how that is racist...

Its simple, if you're an immigrant to a country like the USA where English is the most spoken language, then you have to learn how to speak the language to get around in the country. In the example above, they can't assume that non-Spanish speakers will speak in Spanish to them, they speak English, so learn English, plain and simple. If they don't learn English, then they can't complain about this problem, thats the immigrants fault for not trying.

I don't see how that is racist...

Its simple, if you're an immigrant to a country like the USA where English is the most spoken language, then you have to learn how to speak the language to get around in the country. In the example above, they can't assume that non-Spanish speakers will speak in Spanish to them, they speak English, so learn English, plain and simple. If they don't learn English, then they can't complain about this problem, thats the immigrants fault for not trying.


But yet, Americans expect everyone else in the world to cater to us, and want everyone speaking english, no matter what the language of a country is. Look, there is no official language here, so dick heads like this need quit with their racist bull crap.

Well, I would like every American to learn German when going to Oktoberfest, or Italian if they want to go to rome, or spanish if they are going to cancun. This kind of stuff is bullshit.
Bullshit. If it were a tourist, the resteurant owner probably wouldn't care and you know it. There is a biiig difference between living in a country and visiting it. Although Geno's Steaks can't be that big of a tourist attraction anyway.

But yet, Americans expect everyone else in the world to cater to us, and want everyone speaking english, no matter what the language of a country is. Look, there is no official language here, so dick heads like this need quit with their racist bull crap.

Well... I would perhaps remove the "This is America" part on the sign, because it assumes that everyone in America must learn English. They don't have to, but it would be a good idea.

The fact of the matter is, English is the most spoken language in the US, if an immigrant wants someone to understand them, then they'll have to speak English. Thats like going to Russia and speaking in English to a Russian waitress, common, they're not gunna understand you, so in this case you gotta learn Russian for them to understand you. Its that simple. Nothing racist about learning a new language in a new land.

So what? The private owner of a private business doesnt want non-english speaking customers. Get over yourselves. Its not even close to racist, its linguist.

I gotta say, the only thing I liked about that article was what Tony Luke said, becuase his cheese steaks are better anyway. The fact of the matter is both Pat's and Geno's are overrated tourist traps. Please, anyone visiting Philly, go to Tony Lukes on 2nd and Oregon.

I surely hope English doesn't become the official language. Why do we collectively sometimes have such trouble remembering our roots as immigrants? And if Vento didn't sound racist in the OP's article, he does here:

Some try to order a cheesesteak. And it bugs Vento if they can't ask for American cheese, provolone or the classic - Cheez Whiz - without pointing.

"If you can't tell me what you want, I can't serve you," he said. "It's up to you. If you can't read, if you can't say the word cheese, how can I communicate with you - and why should I have to bend?

"I got a business to run."

Vento, who lives in Shamong, put up the signs when the immigration debate seized national headlines six months ago.

With Geno's Steaks tattooed on his arm, Vento is used to publicizing things, especially what's on his mind. Speak English signs also poster his Hummer. He has driven through South Philadelphia blaring through the SUV's P.A. system denunciations of neighborhood business owners who hire illegal immigrants.

"I say what everybody's thinking but is afraid to say," Vento said.
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005291.htm

If you must choose between Pat's and Geno's, please, choose Pat's.

I think there is something to be said for language requirements in some situations, like schools (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1870215,00.html). But you can take everything way too far (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1870753,00.html).

This is somewhere in the middle. I suppose one has to respect what the owner of the restaurant wants to do with his money, but it really is not his business to make people learn a language.

The sign is really unnecessary. It's just a publicity thing, to make even people know who are not his customers.

Bullshit. If it were a tourist, the resteurant owner probably wouldn't care and you know it. There is a biiig difference between living in a country and visiting it. Although Geno's Steaks can't be that big of a tourist attraction anyway.


And why should an immigrant have to learn english. There is no official language in the USA. I hear people say "well english is the majority language in America". Well by using that logic, one should think that everyone in America should be forced to be a christian, because its the majority religion.:headbang:

Bullshit. If it were a tourist, the resteurant owner probably wouldn't care and you know it. There is a biiig difference between living in a country and visiting it. Although Geno's Steaks can't be that big of a tourist attraction anyway.
How is the owner suposed to know that? Someone posting a sign like that hardly seems like the type to study case by case

Bullshit. If it were a tourist, the resteurant owner probably wouldn't care and you know it. There is a biiig difference between living in a country and visiting it. Although Geno's Steaks can't be that big of a tourist attraction anyway.

Sadly, it is a huge tourist attraction

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005291.htm
Ugh. Is there anything not to hate about that woman?

And why should an immigrant have to learn english. There is no official language in the USA. I hear people say "well english is the majority language in America". Well by using that logic, one should think that everyone in America should be forced to be a christian, because its the majority religion.:headbang:

He doesnt. Unless he wants to order at one restaurant in Philly. So what?

And why should an immigrant have to learn english. There is no official language in the USA. I hear people say "well english is the majority language in America". Well by using that logic, one should think that everyone in America should be forced to be a christian, because its the majority religion.:headbang:

Yeah, but theres a difference though... language and religion are two separate things. You can survive without becoming a Christian in America, but can you survive living in and getting all the benefits of America and communicate with Americans without knowing English at all?

Race has nothing to do with spoken language. Only language etymology, which can only be purely of historical interest. A 'racial' language cannot be engineered. Favoring one language over another has nothing to do with racism. Cultural elitism maybe, but nothing to do with racism.

And why should an immigrant have to learn english. There is no official language in the USA. I hear people say "well english is the majority language in America". Well by using that logic, one should think that everyone in America should be forced to be a christian, because its the majority religion.:headbang:

The gov't doesn't communicate in Christian
The businesses don't use Christian
The schools don't use Christian

Bad analogy

English-unnofficial language of the US. Learn it if you want to succeed.

And why should an immigrant have to learn english. There is no official language in the USA. I hear people say "well english is the majority language in America". Well by using that logic, one should think that everyone in America should be forced to be a christian, because its the majority religion.:headbang:

How exactly is an immigrant supposed to function effectively if he/she does not know the main language of a country? Knowing English is essential to succeed.

From what I understand of Geno's they kick you to the back of the line if you don't order properly or promptly, so this latest requirement is in keeping with their character.

It is a private business. If it really bothers people let them go across the street to Pat's.

He doesnt. Unless he wants to order at one restaurant in Philly. So what?


Im saying in a more general broader sense. Sorry.

The gov't doesn't communicate in Christian
The businesses don't use Christian
The schools don't use Christian

Bad analogy

English-unnofficial language of the US. Learn it if you want to succeed.
The US should get off its ass and declair a offical language ... requiring someone to learn something that is but tradition is silly

I think I quote a guest on Jon Stewart when I say, "This is where we follow the French?"

From what I understand of Geno's they kick you to the back of the line if you don't order properly or promptly, so this latest requirement is in keeping with their character.

It is a private business. If it really bothers people let them go across the street to Pat's.
Don’t get me wrong I think they have every right to do as they have … though I find it silly and sort of an asshatish thing to do

Yeah, but theres a difference though... language and religion are two separate things. You can survive without becoming a Christian in America, but can you survive living in and getting all the benefits of America and communicate with Americans without knowing English at all?


There are plenty of people that live here and survive without learning english!
So why make it official "to try an help people succeed", when they can do so already?

How is the owner suposed to know that? Someone posting a sign like that hardly seems like the type to study case by case

You did read the part where he said no one is refused a seat just because they don't speak the language?

Zilam- chill out will'ya?


And why should an immigrant have to learn english. There is no official language in the USA. I hear people say "well english is the majority language in America". Well by using that logic, one should think that everyone in America should be forced to be a christian, because its the majority religion.

Yeah, but theres a difference though... language and religion are two separate things. You can survive without becoming a Christian in America, but can you survive living in and getting all the benefits of America and communicate with Americans without knowing English at all?

Couldna said it better meself.

its not racist at all this is America and the language is english so why should we have to learn a ton of new languages when we live here and this is our country just like say i goto mexico i would need to learn spanish even though i know some of it already i would need to be able to understand them as well as they understand me.

The US should get off its ass and declair a offical language ... requiring someone to learn something that is but tradition is silly

Where is it required to learn traditional English?

You did read the part where he said no one is refused a seat just because they don't speak the language?

Zilam- chill out will'ya?



Couldna said it better meself.
That makes a difference in my statement how? I was pointing out that he would not be able to pick out the tourists from the immigrants

That was it

Anything else you read into that was not intended.

Ask a gay, Don't screw with us.

There are plenty of people that live here and survive without learning english!
So why make it official "to try an help people succeed", when they can do so already?

"Surviving" is all they will do however. Any kind of higher paying job is going to require you to be able to speak the language.

English-unnofficial language of the US. Learn it if you want to succeed.


And what will we do when the hispanics are a majority with in the next 20 years or so? Force them to still give up their heritage to learn our language? haha..thanks for the giggle.

Where is it required to learn traditional English?
Its not that’s the whole point … unless I am mistaking your statement

In the article originally published in the Philadelphia Inquirer, the author stated that although new immigrants often have trouble with English, their children grow up knowing English, and generally by the third generation the language of the country from which they immigrated has died out. Its not upsetting that the signs arent posted in Spanish.

Tony Lukes is so vastly superior anyway, it just upsets me Philadelphians are so pigheaded sometimes

Aww, isn't it cute. USians spooked by their second largest language. It'll be so fun to see it become the largest.

Hey lets not forget some of our own english speaking citizens cannot even speak the language properly. So, how can we force someone else to learn a language, when our own damned natural born citizens can't speak it!. English is a hard ass language to learn, compared to spanish.

Its not that’s the whole point … unless I am mistaking your statement

I probably missed your point
Its hard to say where it went wrong

Care for a beer?

Aww, isn't it cute. USians spooked by their second largest language. It'll be so fun to see it become the largest.

Its because they are pig headed idiots.

Fass, make room in Sweden, I am coming to live with you!

I probably missed your point
Its hard to say where it went wrong

Care for a beer?
Lol got a soco sprite ... which is why I think I may be mistaken ... powed from a weading tonight too lol

And why should an immigrant have to learn english. There is no official language in the USA. I hear people say "well english is the majority language in America". Well by using that logic, one should think that everyone in America should be forced to be a christian, because its the majority religion.:headbang:

That is a flawed point. A person can only be apart of one religion, but a person can know multiple languages.

There are plenty of people that live here and survive without learning english!
So why make it official "to try an help people succeed", when they can do so already?

True as that may be, but that doesn't change the fact that English is de facto in the USA, and so it would probably be a good idea to learn English if you want to get anywhere outside your own linguistic group.

"Surviving" is all they will do however. Any kind of higher paying job is going to require you to be able to speak the language.

We arent talking about a "higher paying job", we're talking about ordering a cheesesteak, the right of any human being with $10 and inside the city of Philadelphia.

Aww, isn't it cute. USians spooked by their second largest language. It'll be so fun to see it become the largest.

Once again Sweden leads the way in pointing out the failures of the world.

All praise Swedes. They cure all.

Roberto Santiago, executive director of Philadelphia's
Council of Spanish Speaking Organizations, said he was
"appalled" by the policy.

"I think what's coming out of his mouth is racist," said
Santiago. "He is saying, 'I don't like these brown faces in my
community and I will do everything I can to get them out of
there."'

How the hell did he jump from a person not speaking english to brown faces? I don't think the resturant owner is saying that he'll serve Germans, but not Hispanic. He is requiring immigrants (key word is immigrants) to speak English. I mean we have immigrants coming from all over the world to this country. This is just silly.

Its because they are pig headed idiots.

No, not al of us, thank you

Its because they are pig headed idiots.

Well, that is one way of labelling those who seem to think there's something wrong with multilingualism.

Fass, make room in Sweden, I am coming to live with you!

Not without papers you're not.

And why should an immigrant have to learn english. There is no official language in the USA. I hear people say "well english is the majority language in America". Well by using that logic, one should think that everyone in America should be forced to be a christian, because its the majority religion.:headbang:
Thats like comparing Apples and Oranges.
If you are not a Christian, can you still communicate with one? Of course. However, an immigrant who speaks another language other than English, can still learn English and continue speaking that language whenever they want to. But when they meet someone who only speaks English because he was born here and has no need to learn the immigrant's language, then that person is perfectly reasonable in expecting the immigrant to speak in English.

Why do you think everyone on this forum speak English? There are plenty of people who are from countries other than English-speaking countries on this forum. Thats because English is the de facto language on this forum, just like it is in the USA.

Ask a gay, Don't screw with us.

Nice example of a bigoted distinction between being gay and being American.

No, not al of us, thank you


Well going with the logic of this thread, the majority of americans are, so thus every american must be a pig headed idiot, including myself!

I'm for knowing many languages and multilingualism, but the fact of the matter is, when theres one common language amongst the people, thats the language you should probably communicate in to get around and function in your community.

If you choose not, then fine. Thats your fault, don't complain if things don't go your way.

Hey lets not forget some of our own english speaking citizens cannot even speak the language properly. So, how can we force someone else to learn a language, when our own damned natural born citizens can't speak it!. English is a hard ass language to learn, compared to spanish.

There is a huge difference between speaking formal English properly and knowing how to speak normal English. Virtually no one speaks the formal version of any language. Spoken English is not harder than spoken Spanish, which is all the guy in the article was asking for. Written English is much harder than Spanish (emphasis on written).

Thats like comparing Apples and Oranges.
If you are not a Christian, can you still communicate with one? Of course. However, an immigrant who speaks another language other than English, can still learn English and continue speaking that language whenever they want to. But when they meet someone who only speaks English because he was born here and has no need to learn the immigrant's language, then that person is perfectly reasonable in expecting the immigrant to speak in English.

Why do you think everyone on this forum speak English? There are plenty of people who are from countries other than English-speaking countries on this forum. Thats because English is the de facto language on this forum, just like it is in the USA.

Well perhaps I should just start speaking in Spanish from now on, or italian, or the little bit of arabic i know. Hmm, lets see if they make a resolution on NS general to keep english as the official language:rolleyes:

How the hell did he jump from a person not speaking english to brown faces? I don't think the resturant owner is saying that he'll serve Germans, but not Hispanic. He is requiring immigrants (key word is immigrants) to speak English. I mean we have immigrants coming from all over the world to this country. This is just silly.

There isn't a large influx of German immigrants in that neighborhood, though, theres a large influx of Mexican immigrants. Interesting you should say that tho....
Vento's political statement - from a man whose Italian-born grandparents spoke only broken English - captures the anger and discontent felt by many Americans about illegal immigrants...

...The Ventos rarely left their South Philadelphia neighborhood. Now, in a way, the neighborhood has left the couple's descendants. Geno's sits at Ninth and Passyunk, the hub of Little Italy turned home to thousands of Mexicans. http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005291.htm

Should immigrants learn English? Yes. But its hard to learn a language overnight, and that shouldnt stop someone from being able to order a cheesesteak.

And what will we do when the hispanics are a majority with in the next 20 years or so? Force them to still give up their heritage to learn our language? haha..thanks for the giggle.

If you want to have a nation that lacks any sort of social solidarity or cohesiveness then depriving a nation of effective means of communication between different national groups on the basis of "cultural respect" is exactly the right way to go.

There isn't a large influx of German immigrants in that neighborhood, though, theres a large influx of Mexican immigrants. Interesting you should say that tho....
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005291.htm

Should immigrants learn English? Yes. But its hard to learn a language overnight, and that shouldnt stop someone from being able to order a cheesesteak.

Are you saying that every language in the world must be learned by those taking orders at cheesesteak restaurants?

Are you saying that every language in the world must be learned by those taking orders at cheesesteak restaurants?


Now thats just silly, and impossible.

Now thats just silly, and impossible.

Then how can everyones orders be taken at cheesesteak restaurants?

There isn't a large influx of German immigrants in that neighborhood, though, theres a large influx of Mexican immigrants. Interesting you should say that tho....
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005291.htm

Should immigrants learn English? Yes. But its hard to learn a language overnight, and that shouldnt stop someone from being able to order a cheesesteak.

Yea, but we should encourage english whenever we can, so that we can help these immigrants speak English. I mean there are several community colleges that offers ESL all year round, even at night.

All this arguing back and forth about whether or not immigrants should learn english is besides the point.

Is a policy of requiring english language for service racist or not?

I've heard arguments saying it isn't, but so far precious little saying that it is racist.

I'm for knowing many languages and multilingualism, but the fact of the matter is, when theres one common language amongst the people, thats the language you should probably communicate in to get around and function in your community.

If you choose not, then fine. Thats your fault, don't complain if things don't go your way.

I disagree, I think a person should view it as their obligation to society. In Britain we have an increasing number of parochial communities among minority ethnic groups precisely because the state and society do not do enough to promote integration and because many of these immigrant groups appear unwilling to make more of an effort to do so. It creates racial tensions, national divisions and a whole host of wider problems that effect all of society. I'll say it again, learning the primary language of your host country ought to be seen not as a choice, but an obligation.

Are you saying that every language in the world must be learned by those taking orders at cheesesteak restaurants?

Nope. I'm saying if someone with American dollars comes to the window at Geno's, points to what he or she wants, and hands over the amount it costs, the person taking the order shouldn't be dickheaded about it. Especially given that Ventos grandparents could only speak broken english. I mean, honestly.

And, Geno's is much more a cheesesteak stand than a restaurant.

Are you saying that every language in the world must be learned by those taking orders at cheesesteak restaurants?

Oh, it shouldn't be too hard to learn the second largest language of the country one is currently occupying, one would think, but for some reason, USians seem to think knowing a second language is bad...

Fass, make room in Sweden, I am coming to live with you!
Make sure you learn the language, främling.

"Even though English is not the official language, knowledge of it is required to become a naturalized citizen." -Wikipedia

If you're going to become a citizen of the USA, you'd better know English. I don't care if you think we Americans (and yes, that's proper English grammar) are pigheaded idiots, because frankly, I think you're a imbecile as well. Generalizing a whole population and culture with something such as "pigheaded idiots" lowers you down to the level of the guy who had the sign.

And most Americans don't have a problem with legal immigrants who follow the rules of our country. Immigrants have no right to come into our country and then expect to be treated special. They should learn the language and the culture just like everyone else if they expect to live here. Sure they can get by using their native language, but if they enter a restaurant where people don't speak that language, you can expect them to find themselves in some what of a pickle if they can't read or speak English.

Oh, and English is being pushed as an official language, but frankly, its not on our country's priority list.

And one last thing. Its "American", not "USian", you halfwit.

Oh, it shouldn't be too hard to learn the second largest language of the country one is currently occupying, one would think, but for some reason, USians seem to think knowing a second language is bad...
Right... using your argument, it shouldn't be too hard to learn the largest language of the country one is currently occupying. USians don't thikn knowing a second language is bad... In fact they are encouraging it, in immigrants.

Ok, the phrasing sucks, but...

...the sign is in English. If you can read the sign, you can order in English, which isn't too much to ask considering it is the language spoken by the person taking the order.

If they can't make the effort to communicate in English, why should I have to make any extra effort to communicate with them?

Then how can everyones orders be taken at cheesesteak restaurants?


Well, we could use your friends method the good ol' "point to the picture"

OR
Have hand out menus in different languages.

Or go the starwars route and have C-3PO translate everything for us.

Right... using your argument, it shouldn't be too hard to learn the largest language of the country one is currently occupying. USians don't thikn knowing a second language is bad... In fact they are encouraging it, in immigrants.

It goes both ways. You can just expect one side to learn, and the other to put up signs saying "no, you may not speak that other language here."

Seriously, it's Spanish, not Xhosa. You could pick it up in six months, what with it being so prevalent in the US (and on the rise :) ). There is no excuse except laziness, or wilful ignorance.

Make sure you learn the language, främling.

Främling? Haha. "Utböling" would be the grown up word...

Främling? Haha. "Utböling" would be the grown up word...
:eek:
Good thing that I'm not planning on ordering a steak in Sweden...

And most Americans don't have a problem with legal immigrants who follow the rules of our country. Immigrants have no right to come into our country and then expect to be treated special. They should learn the language and the culture just like everyone else if they expect to live here. Sure they can get by using their native language, but if they enter a restaurant where people don't speak that language, you can expect them to find themselves in some what of a pickle if they can't read or speak English.

Ok, lets get things straight. Geno's is not a restaurant, where you come in, sit at a table, have a waiter get you drinks and order your cheesesteak. Its a stand, granted with big neon signs, where you wait eternity in a line, get up to the window, order, pay, and sit at one of the outdoor tables, if you can find a spot. if you cannot say what you want to order, you could easily point to the big menu on the side of the window.

Also, immigrating here is a lot harder to do legally than it used to be. Apparently, we stopped believing in that whole
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" thing went out of style in the 1930s or 40s.

For the sake of argunemt let's concede that this giy is wrong to to turn away customers merely because he cannot understand what they want from him for their money.

Does that also make hiring people on the basis of being bi-lingual wrong?

Is it OK to only hire those who can speak Spanish in some industries?

If the premise is that you cannot turn anyone away merely because they cannot make themselves understood then both of these practices are also wrong.

:eek:
Good thing that I'm not planning on ordering a steak in Sweden...

I'd think German or English would do you quite fine, but if you must use Swedish, then it's "Jag skulle vilja ha en biff, tack."

Well, we could use your friends method the good ol' "point to the picture"

OR
Have hand out menus in different languages.

Or go the starwars route and have C-3PO translate everything for us.

Like thats gunna actually happen... :rolleyes:

It goes both ways. You can just expect one side to learn, and the other to put up signs saying "no, you may not speak that other language here."

Seriously, it's Spanish, not Xhosa. You could pick it up in six months, what with it being so prevalent in the US (and on the rise :) ). There is no excuse except laziness, or wilful ignorance.


Or maybe the fact that many here in America are just racist, and hate anything that is different from Anglofied America.

Ok, lets get things straight. Geno's is not a restaurant, where you come in, sit at a table, have a waiter get you drinks and order your cheesesteak. Its a stand, granted with big neon signs, where you wait eternity in a line, get up to the window, order, pay, and sit at one of the outdoor tables, if you can find a spot. if you cannot say what you want to order, you could easily point to the big menu on the side of the window.

Also, immigrating here is a lot harder to do legally than it used to be. Apparently, we stopped believing in that whole
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" thing went out of style in the 1930s or 40s.


Alright, thats great. The whole Geno's thing. But the real thing is, I don't care. There are a lot of restaurants that don't have full picture menus.

And immigration has slowed down because we only have so much room in this country as it is. I admit its probably not fair how they go through the process of coming to America, especially with the "quotas" the immigration policies have, but the fact remains that to become a citizen of this country, you need knowledge of our language.

America's long time past being "The Land of the Free". Its time the people start to realize that.

I'd think German or English would do you quite fine, but if you must use Swedish, then it's "Jag skulle vilja ha en biff, tack."

Before I try that what does it really mean?

Before I try that what does it really mean?

"I would like to have a steak, please."

Alright, thats great. The whole Geno's thing. But the real thing is, I don't care. There are a lot of restaurants that don't have full picture menus.

And immigration has slowed down because we only have so much room in this country as it is. I admit its probably not fair how they go through the process of coming to America, especially with the "quotas" the immigration policies have, but the fact remains that to become a citizen of this country, you need knowledge of our language.

America's long time past being "The Land of the Free". Its time the people start to realize that.


There seems to be plenty of open space in the midwest. Like in KS,OK, N. and S. Dakota. America is a pretty big place, ya know? And America should never give up on the dream of being the Land of the Free. That's just plain ignorant.

Oh, it shouldn't be too hard to learn the second largest language of the country one is currently occupying, one would think, but for some reason, USians seem to think knowing a second language is bad...

It shouldnt be any more difficult to learn the main language in a country either.
Bilingualism is great if you move to a country where you dont speak the primary language. Im all for it.

And immigration has slowed down because we only have so much room in this country as it is.
Hardly.
http://www.census.gov/population/censusdata/90den_stco.txt

America's long time past being "The Land of the Free". Its time the people start to realize that.
And you don't think there is a problem with that? If you don't, you should probably change the name of the place.
Because the USA was formed first and foremost as an ideal in the minds of a few smart men and their rich friends, and that is why you can't just change the way the country works and keep the name and everything that comes with that.

Yes, in most restaurants in America, the customer should be prepared to order in English. But the nature of cheesesteak stands is different from the nature of restaurants. And, in this case, we're only talking about one specific cheesesteak stand.

Of course its important to learn english, i dont disagree. I just think its also important to be accepting of others.

It shouldnt be any more difficult to learn the main language in a country either.

Spanish and English are the main languages of the US. Knowing one, and not the other, is silly. And, yes, that includes those who only speak English.

Bilingualism is great if you move to a country where you dont speak the primary language. Im all for it.

The US will be bilingual in a not too distant future, if the Hispanic minority continues its growth. Fighting it is futile - you should be embracing it, and getting your ass to some language class.

There seems to be plenty of open space in the midwest. Like in KS,OK, N. and S. Dakota. America is a pretty big place, ya know? And America should never give up on the dream of being the Land of the Free. That's just plain ignorant.

No, its ignorant to believe that anything is actually free. No where in the world is something free. There is always work attached in some form, nothing comes without a price. Even our freedoms, our rights, they come with a price too: the blood of patriots.

And yes, America is a massive place. But Mexico is pretty big too. Canada is big too. And size isn't the only thing. This country is so uptight about terrorism, and I'd like to think we good reason, considering the matters at hand in this little world of ours.

It goes both ways. You can just expect one side to learn, and the other to put up signs saying "no, you may not speak that other language here."

Seriously, it's Spanish, not Xhosa. You could pick it up in six months, what with it being so prevalent in the US (and on the rise :) ). There is no excuse except laziness, or wilful ignorance.

Gee, sanctimonious much?

No one told them they couldn't speak Spanish. The asshat in question simply encouraged them to speak English, in a fairly tactless manner.

As for learning Spanish, it holds no benefit for me, and I have many better things to do with my time. If I ever relocate to a Spanish speaking country, I'll reconsider.

As for Spanish ever becoming the primary language here, fat fucking chance. Most of the hispanic guys I know are only 2-3 generations removed from Mexico and not one of them speaks Spanish fluently. Hell, their Spanglish isn't even much better than mine.

Spanish and English are the main languages of the US. Knowing one, and not the other, is silly. And, yes, that includes those who only speak English.

The US will be bilingual in a not too distant future, if the Hispanic minority continues its growth. Fighting it is futile - you should be embracing it, and getting your ass to some language class.


LANGUAGE
English 82.1%, Spanish 10.7%, other Indo-European 3.8%, Asian and Pacific island 2.7%, other 0.7% (2000 census) - CIA Factbook

Sure, it'll happen, but its still far away. And by the time, you can fully expect those Hispanics to have learned American English as well.

EDIT: And the person above this post makes a great point. A lot of Americans have no need for Spanish. You might say we should learn it to converse with immigrants. Uh-uh, no. We don't play that game. If you're coming here, you adjust yourself to fit, we don't adjust for you.

No, its ignorant to believe that anything is actually free. No where in the world is something free. There is always work attached in some form, nothing comes without a price. Even our freedoms, our rights, they come with a price too: the blood of patriots.

And yes, America is a massive place. But Mexico is pretty big too. Canada is big too. And size isn't the only thing. This country is so uptight about terrorism, and I'd like to think we good reason, considering the matters at hand in this little world of ours.


I could start at so many places with this post. But I am going to bed.

¿Usted entiende las palabras que están saliendo de mi boca?

I didn't think so...

:)

No, its ignorant to believe that anything is actually free. No where in the world is something free. There is always work attached in some form, nothing comes without a price. Even our freedoms, our rights, they come with a price too: the blood of patriots.

And yes, America is a massive place. But Mexico is pretty big too. Canada is big too. And size isn't the only thing. This country is so uptight about terrorism, and I'd like to think we good reason, considering the matters at hand in this little world of ours.
What's terrorism got to do with it? Are we worried about all the mexican al-Qaeda operatives or something? Im kind of confused.

I could start at so many places with this post. But I am going to bed.

I'm sure you could, and I'd have something to say to every one of them. In any case, g'night, sleep well.

LANGUAGE
English 82.1%, Spanish 10.7%, other Indo-European 3.8%, Asian and Pacific island 2.7%, other 0.7% (2000 census) - CIA Factbook

By 2050, Hispanics will total around 105 million in the US, making up around 25% of the US population. 2050 is not far away, at all. And a 25% minority is not easily ignored.

Sure, it'll happen, but its still far away. And by the time, you can fully expect those Hispanics to have learned American English as well.

And one will hope the rest of country will have learnt Spanish, or at least enough to manage in everyday life.

What's terrorism got to do with it? Are we worried about all the mexican al-Qaeda operatives or something? Im kind of confused.

Not particularly with Mexico, but with immigration as a whole. Coming and going from this country is much more difficult than it used to be.

I could start at so many places with this post. But I am going to bed.
Gnight

I don’t have a problem with people speaking Spanish in public because I usually don’t care what most people have to say.
Oh, it shouldn't be too hard to learn the second largest language of the country one is currently occupying, one would think, but for some reason, USians seem to think knowing a second language is bad...
For me personally, its not that knowing a second language is bad, its that it’s just so fucking hard. In fact, those three years of high school German were the only classes I’ve ever had in my life where I didn’t know what the fuck was going on more than half the time.
That’s another reason why I don’t care if an immigrant doesn’t learn English. Learning a second language is something I can’t so, so why should I expect it from them?

Spanish and English are the main languages of the US. Knowing one, and not the other, is silly. And, yes, that includes those who only speak English.



The US will be bilingual in a not too distant future, if the Hispanic minority continues its growth. Fighting it is futile - you should be embracing it, and getting your ass to some language class.

Why? I can get by with the pidgin Spanish I know already. I can certainly get by ordering in Spanish only taco stands. If I want decent cheap tacos and burritos I have to. If I want a job in any phase of agriculture I need to know Spanish. I can get by there too. Im not against bi-lingualism or tri-lingualism or n-likngualism. Ive already said that but apparantly you thought I was not truthful. Your loss. I am not for forcing it upon anyone rfor the sake of the new immigrants to this country unless they actually deal with immigrants before they learn English.

BiLingualism=good until such time as it is forced upon me by fresh arrivals to my country. or worse do gooders from afar

By 2050, Hispanics will total around 105 million in the US, making up around 25% of the US population. 2050 is not far away, at all. And a 25% minority is not easily ignored.

And one will hope the rest of country will have learnt Spanish, or at least enough to manage in everyday life.
How many second, third and fourth generation Hispanic immigrants to the US have you known? I've known a great many and none of them do not speak English. Knowing Spanish will not be that big of a deal. I get a long just fine in an area that is (depending on where you go) forty to eighty percent Hispanic.

By 2050, Hispanics will total around 105 million in the US, making up around 25% of the US population. 2050 is not far away, at all. And a 25% minority is not easily ignored.

And one will hope the rest of country will have learnt Spanish, or at least enough to manage in everyday life.


Sure, 25% is a large chunk of the population, but its a ways from majority. And thats assuming the rate they enter this country stays the same (and I doubt it will).

And don't you worry, they teach Spanish in pretty much every public school in this country. But I'd think it much more wise to be learning Chinese.

EDIT: I'm going to sleep too.

By 2050, Hispanics will total around 105 million in the US, making up around 25% of the US population. 2050 is not far away, at all. And a 25% minority is not easily ignored.

And one will hope the rest of country will have learnt Spanish, or at least enough to manage in everyday life.

Idealistic, but no too likely that we'll learn Spanish. We have enough difficulty teaching kids math science and English. And, according to the newspaper article i read, the native language of immigrants is usually lost by the third generation of immigrants. Given that a lot of Hispanics today are the children of immigrants, that will probably be a lot of third generation Hispanics.

I don’t have a problem with people speaking Spanish in public because I usually don’t care what most people have to say.

For me personally, its not that knowing a second language is bad, its that it’s just so fucking hard. In fact, those three years of high school German were the only classes I’ve ever had in my life where I didn’t know what the fuck was going on more than half the time.
That’s another reason why I don’t care if an immigrant doesn’t learn English. Learning a second language is something I can’t so, so why should I expect it from them?

While you do make a good point in the latter part of your post, it is a bit different to learn a language one does not have access to than to learn one that you could easily immerse yourself in. I think it's a shame so many people in the US are wasting that opportunity. For me to immerse myself in a Spanish environment in order to learn the language, I'd have to go to Spain. People in the US can just take their car to the other part of town, and practice, practice, practice. It's enviable, the convenience.

Alas, wasted on so many... *sigh*

There's an old saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." This is a predominantly english speaking country. It may not be the 'official language'{yet} but it is what the average Joe Shmoe is gonna speak. If I moved to Japan, {I intend to someday} I would learn Japanese. I would not expect anyone in my adoptive country to adapt to me, it would be my duty to adapt to them. When in Rome, you do as the Romans do, no if's, and's, or buts about it. Ol Geno didn't do thing wrong. I hope that sign never comes down.

Anyway I was watching COPS the other day, when they arrested this hispanic man. When the cop asked, "Do you speak english?" the man replied, " No, I only speak spanish." Hmmm...

There seems to be plenty of open space in the midwest. Like in KS,OK, N. and S. Dakota. America is a pretty big place, ya know? And America should never give up on the dream of being the Land of the Free. That's just plain ignorant.

Youd better determine how you are going to get enough water for everyone to move to the midwast. Thankfully global warming will soon have the Dakotas able to support human life that wants to stay there.

Idealistic, but no too likely that we'll learn Spanish. We have enough difficulty teaching kids math science and English. And, according to the newspaper article i read, the native language of immigrants is usually lost by the third generation of immigrants. Given that a lot of Hispanics today are the children of immigrants, that will probably be a lot of third generation Hispanics.

Actually, of the circa 40 million Hispanics in the US today, around 30 million report speaking Spanish at home. The more Spanish becomes available, the less people are going to abandon it, one should expect.

It goes both ways. You can just expect one side to learn, and the other to put up signs saying "no, you may not speak that other language here."

Seriously, it's Spanish, not Xhosa. You could pick it up in six months, what with it being so prevalent in the US (and on the rise :) ). There is no excuse except laziness, or wilful ignorance.
It goes both ways. You can just expect one side to learn, and the other to put up signs saying "no, you may not speak that other language here."

Seriously, it's English, not Xhosa. You could pick it up in six months, what with it being so prevalent in the US (and the vast majority :) ). There is no excuse except laziness, or wilful ignorance.

There's an old saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." This is a predominantly english speaking country. It may not be the 'official language'{yet} but it is what the average Joe Shmoe is gonna speak. If I moved to Japan, {I intend to someday} I would learn Japanese. I would not expect anyone in my adoptive country to adapt to me, it would be my duty to adapt to them.

The situation in the US can no longer be compared to going to a country where only one major language is spoken. In this case, "Rome" doesn't only speak Latin any more and the plebeians have to learn it - it's more like "Rome" is starting to speak more and more Vulgar Latin (i.e. Spanish) and the Classical Latin will start to cease being the only viable option.

Actually, of the circa 40 million Hispanics in the US today, around 30 million report speaking Spanish at home. The more Spanish becomes available, the less people are going to abandon it, one should expect.
I hope you're right, itd be cool to have most Americans be bilingual

It goes both ways. You can just expect one side to learn, and the other to put up signs saying "no, you may not speak that other language here."

Seriously, it's English, not Xhosa. You could pick it up in six months, what with it being so prevalent in the US (and the vast majority :) ). There is no excuse except laziness, or wilful ignorance.

But there you are again, expecting the Spanish-speaking people to learn, but letting the Anglophones off the hook. You're not letting it cut both ways at all, despite the fact that it does cut both ways. Yes, the Spanish-speaking people would do well to learn English. But the other side would do well to learn Spanish, too. At least, with the growth of Spanish, they'll probably have to.

I hope you're right, itd be cool to have most Americans be bilingual

That's what I'm saying! Bilingualism is not a curse, it's a gift.

Well, Im going to bed.

In conclusion.....Geno's sucks anyway, Pat's is for tourists. If you want a REAL, good Philly cheesesteak, go to Tony Lukes.

Damn, this conversation made me hungry......

The situation in the US can no longer be compared to going to a country where only one major language is spoken. In this case, "Rome" doesn't only speak Latin any more and the plebeians have to learn it - it's more like "Rome" is starting to speak more and more Vulgar Latin (i.e. Spanish) and the Classical Latin will start to cease being the only viable option.

Spanish = Vulgar Latin

Well, if you say so...

Spanish = Vulgar Latin

Well, if you say so...

It is, in a sense. Vulgaris is Latin for "common, of the people." Sermo vulgaris became what today is Spanish, French, Portuguese, Romansch and so on...

But there, you are again, expect the Spanish speaking people to learn, but letting the Anglophones off the hook. You're not letting it cut both ways at all, despite the fact that it does cut both ways. Yes, the Spanish-speaking people would do well to learn English. But the other side would do well to learn Spanish, too. At least, with the growth of Spanish, they'll probably have to.
And yet you do exactly what you are claiming that I do. You expect the English speaking people to learn, but leave the Hispanics off the hook.

English is the language spoken by the majority of people in the USA. That's a simple fact. To better assimilate into this culture, immigrants from where ever, they should learn the language of the culture.

You've already stated that it's rather simple to learn English. There is no reason for them to not learn except "lazyness or wilful ignorance".

Now answer, why are you opposed to immigrants learning English? It's an ugly mirror you might look into.

It is. "Vulgaris" is Latin for "common, of the people." "Sermo vulgaris" became what today is Spanish, French, Portuguese, Romansch and so on...

I know very well what it means. I'm just messin' with you. Come on, you have to admit you didn't think that one through very clearly.

I know very well what it means. I'm just messin' with you. Come on, you have to admit you didn't think that one through very clearly.

Yes, I did think that through. Spanish is a Vulgar Latin. Just like French and the rest are. Anyone who knows a bit of Latin and any of its descendant languages can easily see that.

Yes, I did think that through. Spanish is a Vulgar Latin. Just like French and the rest are. Anyone who knows a bit of Latin and any of its descendant languages can easily see that.

Yesss, but you have to admit most of the people on these forums are uncultured, uncouth, barbarians. How many of them know anything about Latin? Or were you only using that particular similie to try and make yourself sound superior when you pounce on whoever replies with something you probably copy/pasted from some website?

And yet you do exactly what you are claiming that I do. You expect the English speaking people to learn, but leave the Hispanics off the hook.

No, I don't. I think Hispanics should learn English. I also think that Anglophones should learn Spanish. They should be bilingual. Neither should have to abandon their language.

English is the language spoken by the majority of people in the USA. That's a simple fact. To better assimilate into this culture, immigrants from where ever, they should learn the language of the culture.

Or, they could change that culture by introducing their own customs and their own language. Like they have. When a population group is as plentiful as the Hispanics are in the US, they are in a position to introduce a second language. As well they should. That's only a gain for everyone.

You've already stated that it's rather simple to learn English. There is no reason for them to not learn except "lazyness or wilful ignorance".

And there is no reason not to learn Spanish.

Now answer, why are you opposed to immigrants learning English? It's an ugly mirror you might look into.

Again, I'm not opposed to them learning English at all. I am opposed at this display of xenophobia, this "you may not speak Spanish here." They should be able to order in Spanish, just like an Anglophone should be able to order in English in a Mexican restaurant, for instance. I'm not letting either off the hook - both should learn, both should embrace.

Yesss, but you have to admit most of the people on these forums are uncultured, uncouth, barbarians. How many of them know anything about Latin? Or were you only using that particular similie to try and make yourself sound superior when you pounce on whoever replies with something you probably copy/pasted from some website?
Excpet for a very very select few, we are all barbarians on this forum.

Excpet for a very very select few, we are all barbarians on this forum.

I said 'most' didn't I?

But there you are again, expecting the Spanish-speaking people to learn, but letting the Anglophones off the hook. You're not letting it cut both ways at all, despite the fact that it does cut both ways. Yes, the Spanish-speaking people would do well to learn English. But the other side would do well to learn Spanish, too. At least, with the growth of Spanish, they'll probably have to.

So, if I emigrate to Sweden or Mexico or any other non-English speaking country, I won't have to learn the language(s) because, by your logic, they will be required to learn my language to communicate with me. I don't think so.

There are significant non-English speaking populations in England, yet for some reason the English aren't learning Hindu or Arabic for them.

The French have a large non-French speaking population, and yet the French require them to learn French in order to function in France.

Yet you expect Americans to learn Spanish to accomodate immigrants. Do you expect us to learn Mandarin, Vietnamese, Hindu, Pharsi and Arabic as well?

Immigrants, presumably, come to America because they're seeking a better life than they had in their old country. And, while I believe in multi-culturalism (certainly American culture has been enriched by the periodic infusions of other cultures), I believe that a multi-lingual culture is divisive not inclusive and that, since the original and continuing language of the United States is English, that is the language that must prevail. But, Fass, don't worry, in about 150 or so years, the English you hear and seem to despise now, will be unrecognizable because of the infusion of so many immigrant languages. A fusion of languages, and not bilingualism, is the logical outcome.

Yesss, but you have to admit most of the people on these forums are uncultured, uncouth, barbarians. How many of them know anything about Latin?

While the place is packed with USians, and I have learnt not to have much faith in US schooling about anything that happened outside the US, I am not going to lower my level of discourse for them. If they ask, like you did, I'll explain and, hopefully, they'll learn. By treating people like idiots, you doom them to remain such. And idiots aren't fun company, are they?

Or were you only using that particular similie to try and make yourself sound superior when you pounce on whoever replies with something you probably copy/pasted from some website?

I was using it because the person I was responding to mentioned Rome. The analogy suited very well. I don't know where you're from, but where I am from, this is grade school knowledge seeing as it's a vital piece of info for the further understanding of the Romance Languages many of us learn in grade school alongside Swedish and English. Believing me to have to copy and paste such a, well, vulgar knowledge, says more about you than about me.

Again, I'm opposed to them learning English at all.
I can only assume that was a typo.

I am opposed at this display of xenophobia, this "you may not speak Spanish here." They should be able to order in Spanish, just like an Anglophone should be able to order in English in a Mexican restaurant, for instance. I'm not letting either off the hook - both should learn, both should embrace.
Well, there you go again, gotta pull the xenophobia card. You're almost a one argument horse.

There is nothing xenophobic about wanting immigrants to be able to assimilate into the country they are choosing to live in. There is nothing xenophobic about Mexico wanting me to learn Spanish if and when I choose to live there.

It's easy to learn English. It would make immigrants life much easier if they did learn English. Infact, it's in their best interest to do so.

Anglophone's learning Spanish would be nice. But their lifes would not be hindered if they don't. And it shouldn't be required.

While the place is packed with USians, and I have learnt not to have much faith in US schooling about anything that happened outside the US, I am not going to lower my level of discourse for them. If they ask, like you did, I'll explain and, hopefully, they'll learn. By treating people like idiots, you doom them to remain such. And idiots aren't fun company, are they?



I was using it because the person I was responding to mentioned Rome. The analogy suited very well. I don't know where you're from, but where I am from, this is grade school knowledge seeing as it's a vital piece of info for the further understanding of the Romance Languages many of us learn in grade school alongside Swedish and English. Believing me to have to copy and paste such a, well, vulgar knowledge, says more about you than about me.

You have officially insulted me. I have been joking around this whole time. Do 'I' have to lower my level of discourse for you and put [j/k] at the end of every joke? I hope not. I knew precisely what you meant by Spanish-vulgar Latin, I was JOKING!!! Lighten up man. And, oh, whether you intended or not you answered my question. You are attempting {unsuccesfully} to use knowledge to make others feel inferior to you. I despise individuals who would use the gift of knowledge in such a way. And one more thing, I know the US school system {if you want to call it that} doesn't teach any of that, which begs the question, where are you from, and why do care about this?

So, if I emigrate to Sweden or Mexico or any other non-English speaking country, I won't have to learn the language(s) because, by your logic, they will be required to learn my language to communicate with me. I don't think so.

If you move to Sweden, you won't have to learn Swedish. Most of us speak English, and I've met several Anglophones who've lived here for years who never speak Swedish. I have lectures in English by English-speaking professors on a regular basis. What is preventing Sweden from being a proper bilingual society when it comes to Swedish-English is our lack of people who have it as a maternal language. In the US, it's completely the opposite - you've many people who are born into it, and they have so many who seem to refuse to learn.

There are significant non-English speaking populations in England, yet for some reason the English aren't learning Hindu or Arabic for them.

Because there hasn't been a critical mass achieved like it has in parts of the US with Spanish.

The French have a large non-French speaking population, and yet the French require them to learn French in order to function in France.

Same thing. Not enough, not concentrated enough. Unlike in the US.

Yet you expect Americans to learn Spanish to accomodate immigrants. Do you expect us to learn Mandarin, Vietnamese, Hindu, Pharsi and Arabic as well?

Should they become as large as Spanish, yes.

Immigrants, presumably, come to America because they're seeking a better life than they had in their old country. And, while I believe in multi-culturalism (certainly American culture has been enriched by the periodic infusions of other cultures), I believe that a multi-lingual culture is divisive not inclusive and that, since the original and continuing language of the United States is English, that is the language that must prevail. But, Fass, don't worry, in about 150 or so years, the English you hear and seem to despise now, will be unrecognizable because of the infusion of so many immigrant languages. A fusion of languages, and not bilingualism, is the logical outcome.

The growth of the Hispanic minority contradicts that. I don't worry, though, for the US we see in three quarters of a century or so will no longer be assumed to be only Anglophone.

PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - A sign in a landmark Philadelphia
restaurant asking customers to order in English is sparking
controversy in the metropolis known as the "City of Brotherly
Love."

The owner of Geno's Steaks said on Thursday that the sign,
"This is America -- when ordering speak English," is intended
to encourage immigrants to learn the language and assimilate
into U.S. society, but one Latino activist said it's racist.

The controversy comes amid a national debate over
immigration in the United States. The U.S. Senate passed an
immigration bill last month that includes a provision which
would make English the national language.

"They should be glad that I put the sign up. I'm trying to
help them to speak English," said Joey Vento, 66, whose
grandparents moved to the United States from Italy. "Without
the English language, they are going to have a lot of problems
in this country.

"There is nobody who can say they are turned down because
of the language," he added. "They can point if they want to."

The sign, which Vento posted at his cheese steak restaurant
about six months ago and says he has no intention of removing,
has made some people angry.

Roberto Santiago, executive director of Philadelphia's
Council of Spanish Speaking Organizations, said he was
"appalled" by the policy.
"I think what's coming out of his mouth is racist," said
Santiago. "He is saying, 'I don't like these brown faces in my
community and I will do everything I can to get them out of
there."'

Santiago said he has urged Latinos to boycott Geno's
Steaks, a fixture in South Philadelphia's Little Italy
neighborhood which has seen an influx of Hispanic immigrants in
recent years.

Vento denied that anyone would be refused service if they
ordered one of the sliced beef-and-cheese sandwiches, a famed
bit of cuisine in the Quaker-founded "City of Brotherly Love,"
in a language other than English.

Tony Luke, co-owner of competitor Tony Luke's restaurant,
said Vento has taken "too much of a hard line" with
non-English-speaking customers.

"You can't be expected to learn English in a week," he
said. "We will be a lot more tolerant than that."


Does anyone find this as ridiculous as I do? I don't think he is racist at all.

It's not racist at all - for it to be racism would require language to "race" related.

And that Roberto Santiago guy is just being an ass. Again, it's not a racist policy. If you want to object, object on the correct grounds - ethnic or linguistic .

You have officially insulted me.

And you accusing me of having to "copy and paste" something so basic is not an insult? Medice, cura te ipsum!

I have been joking around this whole time. Do 'I' have to lower my level of discourse for you and put [j/k] at the end of every joke? I hope not. I knew precisely what you meant by Spanish-vulgar Latin, I was JOKING!!! Lighten up man. And, oh, whether you intended or not you answered my question. You are attempting {unsuccesfully} to use knowledge to make others feel inferior to you.

I'm not attempting that at all. Again, should they feel inferior over something so banal, it speaks more of them than of me. What I've mentioned so far is common knowledge - I've yet to use any sort of advanced knowledge in my analogies.

I despise individuals who would use the gift of knowledge in such a way. And one more thing, I know the US school system {if you want to call it that} doesn't teach any of that, which begs the question, where are you from, and why do care about this?

<--- The location field is this way. Oh, and if you hadn't noticed, this is a discussion forum. People come here to, you guessed it, discuss all sorts of things. "Why do you care" is a rather silly question to ask in a place such as this, tantamount to asking "why are you singing" of someone who's on stage.

I'm not attempting that at all. Again, should they feel inferior over something so banal, it speaks more of them than of me. What I've mentioned so far is common knowledge - I've yet to use any sort of advanced knowledge in my analogies.

Dude, are you trying to piss me off? Your assumption is false. Though I know my latin, most americans do not.

<--- The location field is this way. Oh, and if you hadn't noticed, this is a discussion forum. People come here to, you guessed it, discuss, all sorts of things. "Why do you care" is a rather silly question to ask in a place such as this, tantamount to asking "why are you singing" of someone who's on stage.

'Why are you here' and 'why do you care' are two totally different things. And I know where the hell the location field is. The last part was an impulse. I was already in the reply box and you can't see it from their. Stop trying to piss me off.

And you accusing me of having to "copy and paste" something so basic is not an insult? Medice, cura te ipsum!

"Physician, heal thyself!" Point taken. Mea maxima culpa. I'll apologize if you do.

I am opposed at this display of xenophobia, this "you may not speak Spanish here." They should be able to order in Spanish, just like an Anglophone should be able to order in English in a Mexican restaurant, for instance. I'm not letting either off the hook - both should learn, both should embrace.

1) The restaurant sign says "This is America -- when ordering speak English". How did you get "you may not speak Spanish here" from that? It says nothing of the sort.

2) Nor is this xenophobia. Xenophobia is when I walk into a barbershop here and request a haircut in Japanese and am refused service because "we don't serve foreigners."

And, oh, whether you intended or not you answered my question. You are attempting {unsuccesfully} to use knowledge to make others feel inferior to you. I despise individuals who would use the gift of knowledge in such a way.

Since you're new here, I'll let you in on what's fairly common knowledge among the regulars: Fass is an unapologetic elitist snob. Feel free to ignore him.

Immigrants should not feel pressured into learning a new language. Usually, immigrants are most likely to speak more than one language (bilingual). Forcing a group of people to learn and speak someone else’s language, would only bring the opposite effect in which immigrants would likely seclude themselves from society and not integrate (out of defense and fear). This issue was easily fabricated in order to take the real attention of Iraq away from the public.

Immigrants should not feel pressured into learning a new language. Usually, immigrants are most likely to speak more than one language (bilingual). Forcing a group of people to learn and speak someone else’s language, would only bring the opposite effect in which immigrants would likely seclude themselves from society and not integrate (out of defense and fear). This issue was easily fabricated in order to take the real attention of Iraq away from the public.

And by the same token, a minority of immigrants should not be forcing the majority of natives to change.

Since you're new here, I'll let you in on what's fairly common knowledge among the regulars: Fass is an unapologetic elitist snob. Feel free to ignore him.

That explains it then. Well, good to know.

Oh, and, uhh, sorry about that whole 'uncouth barbarian' thing.

Dude, are you trying to piss me off? Your assumption is false. Though I know my latin, most americans do not.

Vi är inte alla Förenta-Statare här. (We are not all USians here.) Get over it.

'Why are you here' and 'why do you care' are two totally different things.

Not when the two are so closely related. Obviously I've come here, and to come here I must for some reason care to come here. I care to come here because I'm up for discussion. "Why do you care?" "Why do you sing in a place where people come to sing?"

And I know where the hell the location field is. The last part was an impulse. I was already in the reply box and you can't see it from their. Stop trying to piss me off.

Nurture your detachment, lest your stay here be very vexing indeed.

"Physician, heal thyself!" Point taken. Mea maxima culpa. I'll apologize if you do.

This is where the part about detachment comes in. I do not care sufficiently about your petty insult for me to demand an apology. You should learn not to, either. It's called "growing a skin."

1) The restaurant sign says "This is America -- when ordering speak English". How did you get "you may not speak Spanish here" from that? It says nothing of the sort.

2) Nor is this xenophobia. Xenophobia is when I walk into a barbershop here and request a haircut in Japanese and am refused service because "we don't serve foreigners."

They will obviously not be served if they act "foreign."

snip
Geno's?

I need to go there next time I'm in Philly.

And by the same token, a minority of immigrants should not be forcing the majority of natives to change.

How long until they stop being base "immigrants" and become "Americans" who demand their language be recognised?

IMHO, they passed the "immigrant" stage quite a while ago.

They will obviously not be served if they act "foreign."
How is it obvious and how does one act either foreign or domestic?

They will obviously not be served if they act "foreign."
Or they don't have someone who understands other languages working there?

Maybe?

You know what? :upyours: I'm goin' to bed.

How is it obvious and how does one act either foreign or domestic?

Apparently, by speaking Spanish and English respectively. The sign is telling them "do not order in Spanish." Logically, one deduces, they will not be served if they do so. Probably not because the people at the register are unable to understand "una bistecca con queso, por favor," but because the people behind the register want to be douches.

Or they don't have someone who understands other languages working there?

You would claim they would be unable to understand someone pointing at what they want and saying "una bistecca, por favor?" I am assuming, of course, the people behind the counter are not total idiots.

Apparently, by speaking Spanish and English respectively. The sign is telling them "do not order in Spanish." Logically, one deduces, they will not be served if they do so. Probably not because the people at the register are unable to understand "una bistecca con queso, por favor," but because the people behind the register want to be douches.
I invite you to come to Philly. I'll take you the place in question. I'll show you the menu. I'll prove you wrong.

Most of us speak English, and I've met several Anglophones who've lived here for years who never speak Swedish. I have lectures in English by English-speaking professors on a regular basis.

"This is America -- when ordering speak English"

They will obviously not be served if they act "foreign."

I suggest you brush up on your English before bragging about it, since you manage to confuse the phrase "non-English speaker" with the word "foreign".

You would claim they would be unable to understand someone pointing at what they want and saying "una bistecca, por favor?" I am assuming, of course, the people behind the counter are not total idiots.
http://www.genosteaks.com/menu.php

There's a few things on that menu.

And also, even if you speak english, they will not serve you if you do not know what you want right away.

This issue was easily fabricated in order to take the real attention of Iraq away from the public.

What, you think GW went down to Geno's shop and gave him money to put up the sign? Anyway, Joey did have a valid argument when he stated that his business runs pretty quickly, and he has to keep the lines moving quickly. Therefore, since he and his employees are not fluent in Spanish, the Spanish-speaking customers bog down the lines and cripple business. Now is it right to deny service to a person due to this fact? I disagree, but I know you can deny customers due to no shirt or shoes, so why not be able to deny a customer due to language?

On a side note for those of you discussing whether forcing English on people is right or not, you may notice under the United Nations rules, even though this web site allows people from all over the world to use it, all bills must be submitted in English due to the fact that the majority of people on this site speak English. Do we have our own version of Geno's here?

Apparently, by speaking Spanish and English respectively. The sign is telling them "do not order in Spanish." Logically, one deduces, they will not be served if they do so. Probably not because the people at the register are unable to understand "una bistecca con queso, por favor," but because the people behind the register want to be douches.

The owner said he could not understand them. Are you suggesting he was not telling the truth? Why would he undermine profit ib this way? Being a douche is preferable to profit in your experience to the point that people often lie about language skills in order to be douches?

I invite you to come to Philly. I'll take you the place in question. I'll show you the menu. I'll prove you wrong.

I haven't been to Philly, but I may be passing through just before Xmas. If Fass won't take up your offer, I will, if I have the time and you're willing... I'd love to get a real Philly Cheese Steak. :D (Last time I asked a friend what to eat in his home town when I passed through on the way home for Xmas, I was treated to the wonderment of a Chicago Italian beef sandwich served "wet" and with "Giardiniera" peppers. Mama mia! That was one damned good sandwich!)

I haven't been to Philly, but I may be passing through just before Xmas. If Fass won't take up your offer, I will, if I have the time and you're willing... I'd love to get a real Philly Cheese Steak. :D (Last time I asked a friend what to eat in his home town when I passed through on the way home for Xmas, I was treated to the wonderment of a Chicago Italian beef sandwich served "wet" and with "Giardiniera" peppers. Mama mia! That was one damned good sandwich!)
New York has carts with hotdogs on every block, Philly hase carts with cheese steaks. *drools*

Sure, I'll buy you as many as you want. :)

New York has carts with hotdogs on every block, Philly hase carts with cheese steaks. *drools*

Sure, I'll buy you as many as you want. :)

Can I get this deal too?

I'll even try to order in Swerdish if Fass will give me a phonetic sentence to do so or a recording.

Can I get this deal too?

I'll even try to order in Swerdish if Fass will give me a phonetic sentence to do so or a recording.
*nods*

I will make a deal with the both of you.

An eating contest! Who ever eats the least cheese steaks has to do the Rocky stairs run. [Mwahahaha!]

And that would be great! But I think Fass ran off :(

*nods*

I will make a deal with the both of you.

An eating contest! Who ever eats the least cheese steaks has to do the Rocky stairs run. [Mwahahaha!]

And that would be great! But I think Fass ran off :(

Sibce I couldnt do that run even if a bear was chasing me I must eat.

Apparently, by speaking Spanish and English respectively. The sign is telling them "do not order in Spanish." Logically, one deduces, they will not be served if they do so. Probably not because the people at the register are unable to understand "una bistecca con queso, por favor," but because the people behind the register want to be douches.
You failed at logic too. Logically, one would deduce that the owner is, in order to maximise the service his establishment provides to his customers, requesting that said customers make their requests in English. He even went so far as to say that no one has, nor would be refused service if they do not order in English.
Pretty poor logic there Fass... one would expect better of you.

New York has carts with hotdogs on every block, Philly hase carts with cheese steaks. *drools*

Sure, I'll buy you as many as you want. :)

http://www.philevans.com/forum/smilies/drool.gif

(I'd be passing through on my way to or from my pal Bob's place in Old Forge, where he's promised to buy all the Old Forge Pizza I can eat. My doc's been after me to loose weight - he'll kill me after thais trip!)

Probably, US can take a cue from India. When India got independence, there were around 24 (known) languages and 1000s of dialects spoken in the country. Since the government can not work with so many languages (due to the obvious financial burden), it decided to chose the official language(s). Two languages were chosen, English (the British Legacy and the key to the brave new world) and Hindi (spoken by majoriy of people).
Now, people and bussinesses of India are free to speak and function in any language they want but to communicate with government, you need to know the official language.

Oh, and one other thing to Fass:

When ordering there, you can not just point to something on the menu.

You have to state what topings you want and how you want them.

Like you can say "I'd like a Steak Sandwich"; but then you have to tell them "with" or "with out" for cheese. And if you want onions. And if you want raw onions. What about peppers too? And suaces?

You can't just point to the menu.

*nods*

I will make a deal with the both of you.

An eating contest! Who ever eats the least cheese steaks has to do the Rocky stairs run. [Mwahahaha!]

And that would be great! But I think Fass ran off :(

I'm game!

Sibce I couldnt do that run even if a bear was chasing me I must eat.
Those stairs are huge. If I was even told to try and walk up them, I would say "Screw that, I'll just take the bus to some other museum"

Eat eat eat!

http://www.philevans.com/forum/smilies/drool.gif

(I'd be passing through on my way to or from my pal Bob's place in Old Forge, where he's promised to buy all the Old Forge Pizza I can eat. My doc's been after me to loose weight - he'll kill me after thais trip!)
I think the airport is south of Philly, so it would go: Genos; Rocky stairs race; Old Forge.

But then I'd make you stop at the market and eat the chocolate, the greek food, more cheese steaks, amish food, some sushi, and then beer and pretzles :D

Your doctor will hate me.

I'm game!
w00t!

I must admit that I didn't read all the posts, I only got till page 7 or so, I hope I'm not simply repeating what others said now...
Regarding this sign, I must say I wonder why this place still is a tourist attraction. I'm German and I find it rather intimidating. If I waited in line for ages just to see this sign, I might feel too embarassed and frightened to even try to order, really, even though I'd never think of ordering in German.
There must be more polite and encouraging ways to say you want an order in English.
There are many countries with several official languages, eg. Switzerland, or Canada right at the American border, and it seems to me that it works quite well.
I guess I shouldn't meddle in this US-American debate so much even though many other countries have problems with migration...

I suggest you brush up on your English before bragging about it, since you manage to confuse the phrase "non-English speaker" with the word "foreign".

Weren't you claiming to be a teacher? How unfortunate then that you seem to think all there is to reading comprehension is the reading part.

The owner said he could not understand them. Are you suggesting he was not telling the truth?

Yes.

Why would he undermine profit ib this way? Being a douche is preferable to profit in your experience to the point that people often lie about language skills in order to be douches?

Apparently, so. If he had trouble understanding, he could have easily solved it by hiring someone who does speak Spanish, but, no, it seemed to have been more important to him to make a xenophobic ass of himself.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060608/ap_on_re_us/english_only_cheesesteaks

"Competitors are seizing on the controversy.

Tony Luke's issued a statement saying it welcomes all customers "whether or not they speak a `wit' of English."

And a manager at Pat's, Kathy Smith, said of Geno's English-only policy: "That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. I'd rather listen to the Spanish than the foul language of the college students."

None of the other restaurants in the area seem to have troubles dealing with Spanish-speaking customers.

You failed at logic too. Logically, one would deduce that the owner is, in order to maximise the service his establishment provides to his customers, requesting that said customers make their requests in English.
He even went so far as to say that no one has, nor would be refused service if they do not order in English.
Pretty poor logic there Fass... one would expect better of you.

You claim he maximised service by cutting back on it? Yeah, speak more to me about logic, thou guru...

http://www.genosteaks.com/menu.php

There's a few things on that menu.

Twelve items, which I quickly without even speaking Spanish (French is my forté) can figure out should be called something like "Agua, bistecca con queso americano/Cheez Whizz, bistecca con queso (provolone), patatas fritas (con queso)" and so on.

This is supposed to be difficult?

And also, even if you speak english, they will not serve you if you do not know what you want right away.

So, they are douches by default? Right up their ally, this behaviour.

Twelve items, which I quickly without even speaking Spanish (French is my forté) can figure out should be called something like "Agua, bistecca con queso americano/Cheez Whizz, bistecca con queso (provolone), patatas fritas (con queso)" and so on.

This is supposed to be difficult?
I'll let you read the "with/with out" comment I made just before.


So, they are douches by default? Right up their ally, this behaviour.
Just because they want to serve you fast and not keep the others behind you waiting dosn't make them douches.

I'll let you read the "with/with out" comment I made just before.

What, they can't understand what "con" means? You know, it exists as a prefix in English...

Just because they want to serve you fast and not keep the others behind you waiting dosn't make them douches.

Yes, because it takes such a longer time to say "with cheese" instead of just "with." Oh, sorry, "wit." Makes all the difference.

This establishment strikes me as that of the Soup Nazi.

Hehehe...
'Cheez Whiz'

:D
Did you get me my Cheez Wiz, boy?

What, they can't understand what "con" means? You know, it exists as a prefix in English...
You seem so.. hostile towards speedy service..
Yes, because it takes such a longer time to say "with cheese" instead of just "with." Oh, sorry, "wit." Makes all the difference.
"Steak Sandwich wit" *shrugs* Less sylables..

This establishment strikes me as that of the Soup Nazi.
I agree, and see no problem with it.

Soup Nazi wasn't racist, neither is Geno.

Hehehe...
'Cheez Whiz'
]Did you get me my Cheez Wiz, boy?

So, I finally googled it. Eeeuw.

You seem so.. hostile towards speedy service..

I'm hostile towards people who seem to bastards for the hell of it.

"Steak Sandwich wit" *shrugs* Less sylables..

Save you what, 250 milliseconds? You know you squandered them anyway scratching or something.


I agree, and see no problem with it.

Soup Nazi wasn't racist, neither is Geno.

No, Geno is just a xenophobic attention whore with a Napoleon complex.

Well, I would like every American to learn German when going to Oktoberfest, or Italian if they want to go to rome, or spanish if they are going to cancun. This kind of stuff is bullshit.
These people are not just visiting America, they are LIVING here, and if they want to they can take the time to learn the language.

I'm hostile towards people who seem to bastards for the hell of it.
Of course. They'd rather be bastards than run a business.
Save you what, 250 milliseconds? You know you squandered them anyway scratching or something.
So true.. unlike pointing. Speak english.
No, Geno is just a xenophobic attention whore with a Napoleon complex.
.. how?

Of course. They'd rather be bastards than run a business.

Apparently, since the other restaurants in the area don't seem to be having any problems with Spanish-speaking people.

So true.. unlike pointing. Speak english.

Jag pratar vad fan jag vill.

.. how?

"Oooh, they didn't order in the way I want them to order! I'll show them I'm no mere short Corsican... I mean, short Italian-American!"

These people are not just visiting America, they are LIVING here, and if they want to they can take the time to learn the language.
They pay in USD, why can't they speak in english?

(I agree)

Well, I've never thought that was racist because non-english speakers won't get turned away. It's just a case of not having any staff who can speak spanish (or whatever language it is) - which is a shame because I think it's useful to learn another language. I also believe it would be difficult living in an english speaking and not learning the language.

but I'm from england, so things are different here in britain. We don't have large communities of non-english speakers where I live (Cambridge).

Agua, bistecca con queso americano/Cheez Whizz, bistecca con queso (provolone), patatas fritas (con queso)" and so on.
Water, something with America cheese, something else which I think must me a sandwich with provolone, no idea but I know its got cheese on it.

And that's with a few minutes to figure it out. Now when somebody's talking what with syllables and words running together, no way I could take that order.

Water, something with America cheese, something else which I think must me a sandwich with provolone, no idea but I know its got cheese on it.

And that's with a few minutes to figure it out. Now when somebody's talking what with syllables and words running together, no way I could take that order.

Yes, because "bistecca" is soooo different from "beef steak" you can't possibly figure it out, and "patatas fritas" is miles away from "fried potatoes." And the people at the place can't possibly remember how to say cheese in Spanish - how could they, they're USians! They can't speak no other language! :rolleyes:

Personally I'm more interested in a "cheese steak restaurant".. Never heard of that before.

Weren't you claiming to be a teacher? How unfortunate then that you seem to think all there is to reading comprehension is the reading part.

Yes, I'm an ESL teacher. I'd love to teach you the difference between "foreign" and "non-English speaker", but with your attitude, I doubt you're willing to learn the difference.

Although Geno's Steaks can't be that big of a tourist attraction anyway.[/QUOTE]
:headbang: How dare you besmerch the hallowed halls of Geno's
Your in America speak English! signed a beaner:cool:

Yes, because "bistecca" is soooo different from "beef steak" you can't possibly figure it out,
That's what I said.
and "patatas fritas" is miles away from "fried potatoes."
How is it anywhere near fried potatoes? Yeah, the adjective usually follows the noun in Spanish, but I couldn't remember that then, how am I to remember it when somebody's actually using it. My brain freezes when people start to use another language.
And the people at the place can't possibly remember how to say cheese in Spanish - how could they, they're USians! They can't speak no other language!
Most of us haven't had any experience doing it. The two years of high school foreign language classes most take are a joke and the majority fake their way through it.

So, I finally googled it. Eeeuw.
The crowning achievement of american cuisine :D

They pay in USD, why can't they speak in english?

(I agree)
So... What was the official language of the US again? ;)

Apparently, since the other restaurants in the area don't seem to be having any problems with Spanish-speaking people.
I love their attitude.
Jag pratar vad fan jag vill.
Now, now, Fass.

They wont need to learn swedish because they know you will be boycotting them and telling other swedes to do so too.
"Oooh, they didn't order in the way I want them to order! I'll show them I'm no mere short Corsican... I mean, short Italian-American!"
More like "I'm trying to run a business, and trying to keep it running smoothly"

They are a very busy business, and anyway, they rival Pat's, guess where Pat's is? Directly across the street. They want to be assholes and give their enemy more business?

Personally I'm more interested in a "cheese steak restaurant".. Never heard of that before.
:eek: Imagine a sticky,greasey chunk,it isn't a slice,of heaven. Yeah,on a quite night while eating a cheese steak you can hear your arties clogging,but people who eat toofu don't live longer,it just seams that way:p
Philly cheese steaks good stuff that's good for you:D

:eek: Imagine a sticky,greasey chunk,it isn't a slice,of heaven. Yeah,on a quite night while eating a cheese steak you can hear your arties clogging,but people who eat toofu don't live longer,it just seams that way:p
Philly cheese steaks good stuff that's good for you:D
Hmm, sounds good :rolleyes:. The only food I really loved in America was the spare ribs I had in Nashville. They were good.

:eek: Imagine a sticky,greasey chunk,it isn't a slice,of heaven. Yeah,on a quite night while eating a cheese steak you can hear your arties clogging,but people who eat toofu don't live longer,it just seams that way:p
Philly cheese steaks good stuff that's good for you:D
You make it sound like it tastes horrible.

:(

You make it sound like it tastes horrible.

:(
Does it not?
Can you make it sound nicer?

Does it not?
Can you make it sound nicer?
Thin sclices of juicy meat, on a warm toasted bun, smothered in a special steak sauce, with green peppers, melted cheese, and maybe some yummy onions.

*orgasms*

Thin sclices of juicy meat, on a warm toasted bun, smothered in a special steak sauce, with green peppers, melted cheese, and maybe some yummy onions.

*orgasms*
Yea.. You made me want some. That sounds real good.
Well done.

Yea.. You made me want some. That sounds real good.
Well done.
:)

*pats self on back*

Well, I would like every American to learn German when going to Oktoberfest, or Italian if they want to go to rome, or spanish if they are going to cancun. This kind of stuff is bullshit.

The difference is that the people you are referring to are tourists, whereas this debate is about whether IMMIGRANTS (ie people who want to live in a country PERMANENTLY) should be expected to speak that country's language to that country's people.

:)

*pats self on back*
You can send some of that over when you send the chocolates from Philly.

Apparently one Latino thinks english is too complicated for latino immigrants to learn.
You mean it isn't?:eek:

You can send some of that over when you send the chocolates from Philly.
Pfft..





Fine.

The difference is that the people you are referring to are tourists, whereas this debate is about whether IMMIGRANTS (ie people who want to live in a country PERMANENTLY) should be expected to speak that country's language to that country's people.

Bingo. I believe it's a simply common sense and polite to at least learn some simple basic phrases in the local language. But one must make a major effort to learn how to function on a minimal basic level in the native language if you're going to be in a country that speaks another language for any serious length of time. I know people from several countries who like either here in Japan or also in Mexico who make no effort to learn the local language, and spend the vast majority of their time in a foreign ghetto or expect the locals to cater to their language. I find it just as appalling as an immigrant to the US who refuses to learn English. It's the height of arrogance.

I've been around that area. Never been in Geno's steaks, but still. Seriously, that is not racist. If somebody thinks they can come into a country and not learn the language, screw them. Seriously, how can you even blame this guy? He himself can't understand Spanish (well, he might, because he's Italian, but still). Why should he be forced to serve people who he can't understand?

The extreme left really gives us a bad name.

How many of them know anything about Latin?

I've been studying Latin for two years. It's an awesome language, and I love it with a passion. It's so fun to go to old churches with Latin plaques and signs so that I can practice reading it (well, I've only done that once).

Twelve items, which I quickly without even speaking Spanish (French is my forté) can figure out should be called something like "Agua, bistecca con queso americano/Cheez Whizz, bistecca con queso (provolone), patatas fritas (con queso)" and so on.

This is supposed to be difficult?


It's not difficult to read it at all. Romance languages aren't that hard to decipher when they're written down and when one knows Latin or another Romance language. My friend and I once had a written conversation. She wrote in Spanish and I wrote in Latin, and we understood each other well enough.

There are areas in the US where some signs are written in Spanish with no equivalent signs in English (i.e. Miami). They aren't too hard to figure out, though. I mean, if you go to a drug store and there's a sign that says "Prescriptiones," it's really not that tough to get the general meaning.

However, knowing myself, I don't think that I could learn to speak or understand spoken Spanish as easily as I learned to read and write in Latin. (I still have a lot to learn, but I know enough after two years to attempt to translate a novel from English to Latin with relative success.) More than likely, it would be really hard for me to learn to speak another language, just because I'm really bad at pronunciation and I'm afraid I would embarass myself.

I'm hostile towards people who seem to bastards for the hell of it.

Save you what, 250 milliseconds? You know you squandered them anyway scratching or something.


No, Geno is just a xenophobic attention whore with a Napoleon complex.
Such self-hatred, Freud would have loved you.

And do please make arguments without insulting those who seem to disagree with you.

Ask a gay, Don't screw with us.
Off topic AND offensive. Knock it off.

*snip*

Wah.

When I travelled to Chile, I spoke Spanish the whole time I was there. If you're here in the US, speak English ffs.

Hey lets not forget some of our own english speaking citizens cannot even speak the language properly. So, how can we force someone else to learn a language, when our own damned natural born citizens can't speak it!. English is a hard ass language to learn, compared to spanish.


Funny. When my parents went to visit Tuscany and I wanted to speak to them on the telephone, I had to speak Italian to the Italian night desk clerk.

What a shock.

One should always learn at least a few phrases in the language spoken in the country they are in -- like, "Good day," "how much is that," "May I see the <color> one?" "The check, please." "Where is the restroom?" "I need help." "Where is....?" et cetera.

I know I do. It's called courtesy.

Off topic AND offensive. Knock it off.
Whiskey and internet were a bad combination. My girlfriend turned off the computer last night which saved me from making even more stupid remarks.

Yes.



Apparently, so. If he had trouble understanding, he could have easily solved it by hiring someone who does speak Spanish, but, no, it seemed to have been more important to him to make a xenophobic ass of himself.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060608/ap_on_re_us/english_only_cheesesteaks

"Competitors are seizing on the controversy.

Tony Luke's issued a statement saying it welcomes all customers "whether or not they speak a `wit' of English."

And a manager at Pat's, Kathy Smith, said of Geno's English-only policy: "That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. I'd rather listen to the Spanish than the foul language of the college students."

None of the other restaurants in the area seem to have troubles dealing with Spanish-speaking customers.

So in your infinite wisdom of capitalism you would force one businessman to take orders in any language whether he thought it was good for business or not. On the grounds that other businesses take orders in all languages. Isnt that more an example of rampant government micromanagement of business than it is an example of encouraging overall language skills? Socialising business is wonderful for Sweden, but do please consider that many dont want or need a nanny overseeing every decision they make in business.

Twelve items, which I quickly without even speaking Spanish (French is my forté) can figure out should be called something like "Agua, bistecca con queso americano/Cheez Whizz, bistecca con queso (provolone), patatas fritas (con queso)" and so on.

This is supposed to be difficult?



So, they are douches by default? Right up their ally, this behaviour.

Water, beefsteak with american cheese/cheez whiz, beefsteak with provolone cheese, fried potatoes with cheese.

And it's ALLEY, not ALLY, as long as you're going to be picky. ;)

So in your infinite wisdom of capitalism you would force one businessman to take orders in any language whether he thought it was good for business or not. On the grounds that other businesses take orders in all languages. Isnt that more an example of rampant government micromanagement of business than it is an example of encouraging overall language skills? Socialising business is wonderful for Sweden, but do please consider that many dont want or need a nanny overseeing every decision they make in business.
I think you're confusing criticism with 'forcing.' As far as I can tell he's not saying that we should force the owner to take orders in other languages, just suggesting that he's an asshat in how and why he's doing it. It's important to make the distinction between forcing someone and critisizing them.

I lived in Spain for three years. When we went to a restaurant, store, or bar we had to order in...Spanish. Oh, and when we bought stuff, all the lables were in...Spanish only, and when you made a phone call there was no press one for Spanish, press two for English. Seems logical to me.

One should always learn at least a few phrases in the language spoken in the country they are in -- like, "Good day," "how much is that," "May I see the <color> one?" "The check, please." "Where is the restroom?" "I need help." "Where is....?" et cetera.

I know I do. It's called courtesy.

The most important phrase we learned in Spanish prior to going to Spain was, Como se dece? (Sp) which means, How do you say it? They would then teach us the word for whatever we were pointing to.

The U.S. Senate passed an
immigration bill last month that includes a provision which
would make English the national language.

You'd assume that English was already the national langauge:rolleyes:

"I think what's coming out of his mouth is racist," said
Santiago. "He is saying, 'I don't like these brown faces in my
community and I will do everything I can to get them out of
there."'

No... he's saying welcome to an English country please speak English.

Does anyone find this as ridiculous as I do? I don't think he is racist at all.

I think he's a man exercising his rights to put up a sign in a business that he owns.

And no one has the right to make him take the sign down. It's HIS business, HE owns it, it's HIS choice. If people don't like it, fine, go eat somewhere else, it's not a hard concept.

The most important phrase we learned in Spanish prior to going to Spain was, Como se dece? (Sp) which means, How do you say it? They would then teach us the word for whatever we were pointing to.

Como se dice? The most useful phrase indeed.

No hablo espanol...

I would speak Spanish in a restaurant in a Spanish speaking country, and I would expect people to speak English in (most) restaurants in the USA. I wouldn't require it though.

Does anyone find this as ridiculous as I do? I don't think he is racist at all.[/QUOTE]

Nope not at all, we speak English in the US. Look at it like this, what is the national language of France= French, Germany= German, Italy= Italian, and so on. Why should I have to learn read and speak Spanish in my country?????

If they are too ignorant or lazy to learn English then they should go back to where they cane from.

When I was stationed in France, I learned French, same went when I was stationed in Italy, and I learned Italian. Most people there did not speak English and to get around learning the language of the country I was in help greatly, also the people were much more likely to help you out and much more friendly and appreciating towards me, because I was trying to learn about them, so why should it be any different here in the US

This guy isn't racist at all. He doesn't have to waste valuable business time teaching his employees another language so that someone who lives in a primarily English-speaking country doesn't have to learn English. I take Spanish in highschool, simply for the fact that I need it to order at the Burger Kings around here. :headbang:

Not racist. Time for immigrants to learn English, that is all. Blacks speak it, whites speak it, asians speak it...so latinos should have no problem.

:) 100% correct. You know in many cities in the US to get any kind of federal, state or local government job you have to be fluent in Spanish, in the US that is wrong, that is pandering to a special group, where is the equality???? Why should I be disqualified for a job based solely on my not knowing how to speak Spanish?????

It goes both ways. You can just expect one side to learn, and the other to put up signs saying "no, you may not speak that other language here."

Seriously, it's Spanish, not Xhosa. You could pick it up in six months, what with it being so prevalent in the US (and on the rise :) ). There is no excuse except laziness, or wilful ignorance.

Fass, how much time have you spent in the United States? I have never needed to speak Spanish in my nearly four years here. If I get hurt and have to go to a hospital, or if I need to do my banking, I need to speak English. That's all there is to it.

By 2050, Hispanics will total around 105 million in the US, making up around 25% of the US population. 2050 is not far away, at all. And a 25% minority is not easily ignored.



And one will hope the rest of country will have learnt Spanish, or at least enough to manage in everyday life.

But unless the 25% are entirely composed of first generation immigrants, it's highly unlikely that many of them will be monolingual Spanish speakers, or that they'll be more comfortable speaking Spanish than English.

No, I don't. I think Hispanics should learn English. I also think that Anglophones should learn Spanish. They should be bilingual. Neither should have to abandon their language.



Or, they could change that culture by introducing their own customs and their own language. Like they have. When a population group is as plentiful as the Hispanics are in the US, they are in a position to introduce a second language. As well they should. That's only a gain for everyone.



And there is no reason not to learn Spanish.



Again, I'm not opposed to them learning English at all. I am opposed at this display of xenophobia, this "you may not speak Spanish here." They should be able to order in Spanish, just like an Anglophone should be able to order in English in a Mexican restaurant, for instance. I'm not letting either off the hook - both should learn, both should embrace.

What about the Anglophone population of Hawai'i? Wouldn't it be more useful for them to learn Japanese? You seem to operate under the assumption that America is a very uniform country.

If I visit a foriegn country I wwill either learn the local language or hire an interpreter. I I MOVE to a foriegn country then it would only be right to learn the language. When in Rome folks.

Immigrants who refuse to learn english, are in effect refusing to integrate and become Americans. If you don't want to be American, then why are you here?

Well, I would like every American to learn German when going to Oktoberfest, or Italian if they want to go to rome, or spanish if they are going to cancun. This kind of stuff is bullshit.

I distinctly remember being told at the door of more than one German restaurant that they don't serve Turks or Americans, and especially not black Americans.

And if you don't speak fluent German, you aren't getting in.

Didn't seem to be illegal - complaining to the police only resulted in being laughed at by the police.

This isn't racist at all! The Latino the community thinks they're the only people that don't speak English. This is still wrong though. Something wrong with them pointing out what they want? Money's money stupid owners.

This isn't racist at all! The Latino the community thinks they're the only people that don't speak English. This is still wrong though. Something wrong with them pointing out what they want? Money's money stupid owners.

There are stores in Herndon, Va, where the owners and majority of clientele are Spanish-speaking.

If you don't speak Spanish, you aren't getting served, etc.

Is this racist? I don't think so. Stupid? Yes, because some people won't be buying stuff.

People who buy stuff are called "customers". And the customer is always right.

Businesses that don't understand this tend to go out of business over time.

If a country has an official language and you wish to live there, I fail to see how it is racist to insist they learn the language.

Try ordering ANYTHING in Paris using the English language.

If a country has an official language and you wish to live there, I fail to see how it is racist to insist they learn the language.

Try ordering ANYTHING in Paris using the English language.

Native French are as racist as anyone I've ever come across in the hinterlands of the US South.

So I made a habit of always speaking German when I was in Paris.

The conversation in most of the restaurants I went to began in French, but I guess my accent gave me away as an American, so they immediately became rude and assholish, so I switched to German and that seemed to piss them off to no end.

I figured as long as I was getting screwed on the service, I had the right to piss them off.

So, it's generally agreed then that requesting (not requiring) that his customers order in english, to maximize service given to his customers is not a racist.
The executive director of Philadelphia's Council of Spanish Speaking Organizations, Roberto Santiago, was indeed severely overreacting (and arguably racist himself) with his comment
I think what's coming out of his mouth is racist. He is saying, 'I don't like these brown faces in my community and I will do everything I can to get them out of there.

I distinctly remember being told at the door of more than one German restaurant that they don't serve Turks or Americans, and especially not black Americans.

And if you don't speak fluent German, you aren't getting in.
Just where in hell's name do you find all these things? Or are you just making up stuff now?

All I gotta say is... it wouldn't hurt to learn a new language and be bilingual or multilingual every now and then. :)

Why shouldn't people order in english? The people working at the restaurant probably only speak english. People can't be expected to learn a dozen languages. This is completely ridicuous.:mad:

...Doesn't something generally have to refer to races to be racist?

Maybe all of us in the us should be speaking one of the many native languages. I hear the Europeans didn't wipe them all out.

...Doesn't something generally have to refer to races to be racist?
Well, in this case it's assumed because most Latinos (not even a separate race) speak Spanish, that anything anglo-centric is by extension an expression of white racism. They are playing the race card. Utter bullshit, especially seeing as blacks, asians, whites and even many latinos in the US speak English, and seeing as the nation's official language is English.

All I gotta say is... it wouldn't hurt to learn a new language and be bilingual or multilingual every now and then.

I don't think anyone here would disagree with that sentiment. I know I wouldn't. But that's not the problem here. The problem is that one side is using weasel words to defame the other in order to get a special undeserved privalage, which has not been extended to others who came through the system. (Need I point out that the owner is a 3rd generation Italian immigrant. I seriously doubt his grandparents demanded to be served in Italian in the US or cried foul racism when non-Italians didn't understand Italian.)

Well, in this case it's assumed because most Latinos (not even a separate race) speak Spanish, that anything anglo-centric is by extension an expression of white racism. They are playing the race card. Utter bullshit, especially seeing as blacks, asians, whites and even many latinos in the US speak English, and seeing as the nation's official language is English.

Exactly so.

And the whiners have brought in the lawyers.

Philadelphia "English-only" eatery faces probe

By Jon Hurdle

PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) - A civil rights watchdog agency opened an investigation on Monday into a Philadelphia cheese steak restaurant that posted a sign saying "This is America - when ordering, speak English."

The Philadelphia Commission on Human Relations complaint effectively opens a case against Geno's Steaks of South Philadelphia, said Rachel Lawton, acting executive director of the agency.

The Philadelphia controversy has fed a national debate over immigration in which the U.S. Senate passed a bill that would declare English the national language and politicians have raised objections to a Spanish version of the national anthem.

The sign may violate the city's Fair Practices Ordinance, which bans businesses from discriminating on the basis of nationality or ethnicity, Lawton said.

"The complaint will say that the sign discourages patronage by non-English speakers because of their national origin and/or ancestry," Lawton, whose agency enforces the city's anti-discrimination laws, said before the official filing.

Geno's will be given up to two weeks to respond and, if the agency determines the sign has violated the city ordinance, will be ordered to take the sign down. If the restaurant refuses, it will be subject to a $300 fine, Lawton said.

Geno's owner Joey Vento, the grandson of Italian immigrants, said he has no plans to remove the sign.

"I don't see why I should have to. It's freedom of speech," said Vento, 66, who opened the restaurant 40 years ago.

He said no one is refused service and no one is discriminated against. The sign, which has been displayed for about six months, is meant to encourage immigrants to learn English, he said.

"If you don't speak English, the sign means nothing," he told Reuters.

The restaurant, in a historically Italian neighborhood that seen an influx of Central American immigrants, has angered Latino groups.

Roberto Santiago, executive director of the city's Council of Spanish Speaking Organizations, said he received around 50 "hate" e-mails in response to his criticism of the sign.

One from California said groups like his should be banned for representing "filthy, illegal alien invaders", he said.

"This is dividing this nation," he said. "I'm really saddened by these individuals who are upset by having to be tolerant. I'm glad I'm living in an America where comments like Mr. Vento's are out of order."
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyid=2006-06-12T222917Z_01_N12312679_RTRUKOC_0_US-LIFE-ENGLISH.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

How can this discriminate against national origin or ethnicity? Does the sign say "If you are Mexican, order in English"? NO!

:headbang:

So what? The private owner of a private business doesnt want non-english speaking customers. Get over yourselves. Its not even close to racist, its linguist.
It's not that he doesn't want them, he just wants them to order in English. There's a difference.