NationStates Jolt Archive

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Weishaupt
Can any one help shed some light <pardon the pun> on this man.Outside of the myths and wiki it does seem that the Illuminati did/do exist.Please please leave Dan Browne out of this.

When I saw the title, I thought this was about some obscure band :p

Should copyright that...;)

That's the Bavarian Illuminati. They're worthless.

I would say from my understanding it was an offshoot of Freemasonry for a time, of which there were many, as well as there having been over 50 rites of Freemasonry across Europe, possibly over 100. Many of these rites have similar names, and some criss-cross in the most confounding confusing manners.

However, reason for allegations is that the Bavarian Illuminati was more involved in politics, which was normally not allowed in regular Freemasonry. As well as the Bavarian Illuminati just sort of died out without leaving much of a paper trail, which makes it a bit more enigmatic.

Should copyright that...;)

Indeed, lol :p

I know its not the legendary all powerfull organisation of fiction.It was just founded so Herr Weishaupt could join the Freemasons, but it does raise the point if these kind of organisations exist what sort of power or influence if any do they have?

As for powerful organizations, and the real Illuminati-like organization i'd be most worried about the Bohemian Grove, an yearly get together of the elite from the media, politics, and the corporate worlds at a private campground in California. It is recorded they go there, and people see the people enter the Grove and their private planes land at the airport nearby. (I mean the Grove's buses can be seen taking the participants around, and there is a protest in the town each year around the time of it)


The evidence of strange rituals, including a mock sacrifical ritual they conduct (I suppose its mock?) in front of a gigantic 40 ft tall concrete owl.

Participants include a lot of Republican and Democrat Presidents, Henry Kissinger, the founder of Time Warner, etc. etc.

An early photo of some of the rituals appears in vintage photos from National Geographic, as seen here http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/bestvintage/photogallery_02.html


Also ever heard of the Bilderberg Group? Though thats a more public gathering.

As for powerful organizations, and the real Illuminati-like organization i'd be most worried about the Bohemian Grove, an yearly get together of the elite from the media, politics, and the corporate worlds at a private campground in California. It is recorded they go there, and people see the people enter the Grove and their private planes land at the airport nearby. (I mean the Grove's buses can be seen taking the participants around, and there is a protest in the town each year around the time of it)


The evidence of strange rituals, including a mock sacrifical ritual they conduct (I suppose its mock?) in front of a gigantic 40 ft tall concrete owl.

Participants include a lot of Republican and Democrat Presidents, Henry Kissinger, the founder of Time Warner, etc. etc.

An early photo of some of the rituals appears in vintage photos from National Geographic, as seen here http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/bestvintage/photogallery_02.html


Also ever heard of the Bilderberg Group? Though thats a more public gathering.
You would think that if they really were as powerful as they like to think they wouldn't need a mock sacrifice

Who says its mock, but probably is. Just the fact the ritual in the picture of what they used to do looks creepy, and that they are participating in semi-occult ceremonies interest me. Though George W Bush, a lot of his appointees, and John Kerry's publication affiliation with the Skull & Bones who meet in a large tomb shows their not beyond anything. (Picture of George W Bush in a group photo of one class of Skull & Bones http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Skull_and_Crossbones_c1947%2C_GHW_Bush_left_of_clock.jpg)

There are only around 800 living Skull & Bones as they only accept 15 members from Yale a year, Bush appointed 11 of them into his administration :). And it was a big debate that John Kerry and George Bush are both Skull & Bones, they refused to answer questions about their affiliation during the election though did confirm they were. As I said earlier in another thread, whats the likelihood of that just being coincidence?

Why do we need conspiracy theories when their in our face?

Who says its mock, but probably is. Just the fact the ritual in the picture of what they used to do looks creepy, and that they are participating in semi-occult ceremonies interest me. Though George W Bush, a lot of his appointees, and John Kerry's publication affiliation with the Skull & Bones who meet in a large tomb shows their not beyond anything. (Picture of George W Bush in a group photo of one class of Skull & Bones http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Skull_and_Crossbones_c1947%2C_GHW_Bush_left_of_clock.jpg)

There are only around 800 living Skull & Bones as they only accept 15 members from Yale a year, Bush appointed 11 of them into his administration :). And it was a big debate that John Kerry and George Bush are both Skull & Bones, they refused to answer questions about their affiliation during the election though did confirm they were. As I said earlier in another thread, whats the likelihood of that just being coincidence?

Why do we need conspiracy theories when their in our face?
The fact that the Skull and Bones have been linked to Thule is even more intresting .

When I saw the title, I thought this was about some obscure band :p
Tha'ts exactly what I thought..

The fact that the Skull and Bones have been linked to Thule is even more intresting .

Well I don't know if their linked to Thule, thats been assumed, but two American Presidential nominees proven to be part of an elite "secret society" named the Skull & Bones with less than 800 living members, founded by one of the biggest opium traders in the world (proven history), is enough for me to prove that you don't even need conspiracy theories, this is fact.

Then the fact Bush appointed 11 members into his administration.

It really should have been ran in every newspaper in the nation, on every channel, when this was found out. It should have spurred a huge media investigation and massive public discussion. It didn't. Shows that they have the media under control too.

The fact its not being discussed more on here shocks me, this isnt a conspiracy theory people, even CBS did at least one report on it.

My nuggets on various bits

(1) The Freemason and Hermetic Mason lodges may have rules against political participation, but my one uncle tried to join the local Freemason lodge and they made clear at least in their neck of the woods rule #1 was networking. If a Brother needs help, you give it. If it's more than you can provide, you call in more help. if that's not feasible, you do the best you can. Basically a pledge of open ended mutual aid on demand.

My dad had an engineer working for him whose behaviour seemed to confirm this.

So, assuming that rural northern British Columbia is not some weird sort of mutant area, it would seem plausible that influence brokering through the social network of the lodge or cluster of lodges was quite likely. And that since another condition (aside from absolutely NO Catholics, again, in the case of my uncle's application) was basically an informal earnings/aptitude test. Basically, if the people doing intake didn't think your help would be meaningful, you didn't get in.

Given that Dad's engineer was a very smart and talented man, it seems that his lodge (not sure if it was in Northern BC or what region) might have had the same general idea.

I also know when I was stayining in Australia that the Freemason lodges _there_ were so notoriously tied to organized crime that there was still an ongoing tussle over whether it was religious descrimination to bar Freemasons from the police force, and to toss them if their Freemason status was discovered. (Remember, Australia has a much less liberal take on individual rights in many respects....they do have a neofascist party that has been part of all the conservative party governments at least the last 30 years, maybe since WW II, I think...)

So to summarize, what little first or second hand info I've received corroborates the idea that they _can_ have tremendous influence in a region. But really, any organization with consistent and rigorous admission standards and a "mutual assistance" pledge that is upheld zealously would be the same. I remember an article on slate which said that the "Skulls" were basically a bunch of slacker frat boys who were significant only insofar as it was a way of forming and reinforcing social allegiances among the Ivy league ogilarch families.

Certainly, the _doctrines_ of Freemasonry, from a theological perspective are tailored to let anyone justify anything by them, even moreso than orthodox religion. Since God is stated to be remote and cryptic, and pantheism is the official take on the nature of Divinity (one God, many faces), and they explicitly allow any religious text to be taken as a valid source of "wisdom"....
you can pretty much do what you want and even be sincere in having a huge body of "evidence" to support your desires. Humans in general are prone to this, but I think the ideological structure (from what I read of it in a comparitive study of small Christian-originated sects) amplifies this trait.

Now, though, regarding the effectiveness of conspiracy...which is that term we use for manipulative and secretive patronage networks....it's not negligible....but I think the proper concern is to strengthen the nominal institutions of osciety. People will never adhere _perfectly_ to the values they claim to respect, but closing the gap makes for narrower wriggle room for any sort of clandestine influence to do as much or do it as easily. The point is there are so many networks (of varying degrees of openess and scope of membership) that they kinda cancel each other out, from what I've seen.

I mean, there have been times in British and US Imperial history (and since 1947(I think, it was before 1950), America has been a bastardized Empire with the passage of the National Security Act) when the Big Boy On The Block has made up his mind and says "this is the way it's going to be"...(The Irish Question, American intervention in WW II, the Anti-Communist "Witch Hunts") it is not a guarantee. Repeatedly, the desires of the highest halls of government get stymied at times.

And this is with the resources of the dominant powers of the times behind their wishes! They do often have an effect, but the extent and manner in which things go isn't totally foreordained once the Mighty have decided something. And that's working _openly_ with all the mechanism of State and its patrons behind them.

I just don't see how conspiracies can reliably promote their private agendas to a degree that a zero-sum game effect doesn't mostly cancel them out. Now, some vigilance is worthwhile, but trying to specifically identify and ferret out groups seems more dangerous to our civil rights than the threat the groups pose in general.

As I said, I think the key is to reinforce the adherence to our nominal values to make the environment more hostile to ANY clandestine influence.

Then the fact Bush appointed 11 members into his administration.

It really should have been ran in every newspaper in the nation, on every channel, when this was found out. It should have spurred a huge media investigation and massive public discussion. It didn't. Shows that they have the media under control too.

The fact its not being discussed more on here shocks me, this isnt a conspiracy theory people, even CBS did at least one report on it.
Ya know, i ran a thread last week or two about Cheney and Rumsfeld's involvement with MKULTRA, and that dove into nothingness in such flat.

Ya know, i ran a thread last week or two about Cheney and Rumsfeld's involvement with MKULTRA, and that dove into nothingness in such flat.

This isnt quiet the same as MKULTRA, thuugh, and how does that relate to anything? That is not the issue of this thread.

The issue is facts such as Bush Skull & Bones involvement, as well as appointing 11 members into his political administration (I highly doubt all were necessarily qualified) and the Bohemian Grove with its semi-occult rituals


Mandatory Altruism

Yes your right, Freemasonry has a lot of networking, and has been used for political uses. I was just saying their tenet is supposed to be no discussion in the lodge setting itself of politics, in an official capacity. Such as official meetings and rituals. I am sure when they have their social dinners and such there is plenty of networking that goes on, and yes Freemasons do take oaths to come to each others aide.

The Illuminatus Trilogy by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson is a nice thick piece of conspiracy theory fiction. Adam Weishaupt is mentioned prominently and linked to not only the Illuminati and Freemasons, but also the "founding fathers" of the United States. However, it was written in the seventies so parts of it get absurdly trippy, intentionally it would seem.


http://www.rawilson.com/illuminatus.html

Screw the Illuminati!!

MJ-12!! MJ-12!! MJ-12!! MJ-

:eek:

:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

urk...

My great grandfather was apparently a Freemason.

The Illuminatus Trilogy by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson is a nice thick piece of conspiracy theory fiction. Adam Weishaupt is mentioned prominently and linked to not only the Illuminati and Freemasons, but also the "founding fathers" of the United States. However, it was written in the seventies so parts of it get absurdly trippy, intentionally it would seem.


http://www.rawilson.com/illuminatus.html

There is a good book called "The Secret Architecture of the Nation's Capital"

Freemasons built Washington D.C. starting with even laying these poles to lay out the land. In the time it is recorded in newspapers (this is known history) Freemasons laid each of these poles in a ceremony. Then when they started building the city, they laid buildings with cornerstone ceremonies (including the Capital, there is a brick with a plaque you can see where it happened). Not that there is anything sinister in this, but they are definitely integrated with our nation's history in a manner that is not taught in public schools.

I think the Skull & Bones should be worried about more.

The kind of "illuminati" that the weirdos ramble on about nowadays is actually the "Illuminatay"

My great grandfather was apparently a Freemason.

So was mine.

The kind of "illuminati" that the weirdos ramble on about nowadays is actually the "Illuminatay"

You got a reference for that? All I can find using that spelling is a poorly written fantasy story.

You got a reference for that? All I can find using that spelling is a poorly written fantasy story.


What do you mean a referance?

We're talking about the Illumintay, they are secret, duh.

This isnt quiet the same as MKULTRA, thuugh, and how does that relate to anything? That is not the issue of this thread.
You're *good* at connecting things, right?
The fact its not being discussed more on here shocks me, this isnt a conspiracy theory people, even CBS did at least one report on it.
Whatever did i mean, one might wonder ....

The kind of "illuminati" that the weirdos ramble on about nowadays is actually the "Illuminatay"
"Respect my Illuminatah!" - Cartman
http://www.websmileys.com/sm/cartoon/1221.gif

You can't trust the media blindly with the Illuminati in power. Except sports results.

You can't trust the media blindly with the Illuminati in power. Except sports results.
Steroids.

Ya know, i ran a thread last week or two about Cheney and Rumsfeld's involvement with MKULTRA, and that dove into nothingness in such flat.
I never thought MK was into dudes.:eek:
Allthough he did once expres an interest in the content of George Bushes pants and anal-beads.

I never thought MK was into dudes.:eek:
Allthough he did once expres an interest in the content of George Bushes pants and anal-beads.
How in the hades did i miss that one? :(
TRA was fun. He said he had a rather humiliating depiction of a mod, and one thing kinda led to another. *shrugs*
The *best* runs i remember involved he and The UN abassadorship. :D

As a Freemason, I feel a few points should be clarified:

(1) The Freemason and Hermetic Mason lodges may have rules against political participation, but my one uncle tried to join the local Freemason lodge and they made clear at least in their neck of the woods rule #1 was networking. If a Brother needs help, you give it. If it's more than you can provide, you call in more help. if that's not feasible, you do the best you can. Basically a pledge of open ended mutual aid on demand.
Freemasonry is built on relief of the distressed. But you seem to equate charity with a secret Good Ole Boys club.

And most masonic charity goes (http://www.shrinershq.org/hospitals/index.html) to (http://www.knightstemplar.org/ktef/ktef-faq.htm) non-masons (http://www.tallcedars.org/information/efforts.htm), particularly children.

That said, if you have a social network--especially one of men whose character you can trust--it's foolish not to use it. Granted, there would be the potential for abuse in such a system, which is why private business is never discussed in masonic lodges.

And that since another condition (aside from absolutely NO Catholics, again, in the case of my uncle's application)
That's not Freemasonry's rule; that's the Vatican's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09771a.htm), from Clement XII to Leo XIII. The Catholic Church must condemn an organization that promotes the natural dignity of man, democracy, and other evils.

was basically an informal earnings/aptitude test. Basically, if the people doing intake didn't think your help would be meaningful, you didn't get in.
When I was raised, I was a tailor making less than $10K/year. What did they need me for, to make the ritual vestments?

Certainly, the _doctrines_ of Freemasonry, from a theological perspective are tailored to let anyone justify anything by them, even moreso than orthodox religion. Since God is stated to be remote and cryptic, and pantheism is the official take on the nature of Divinity (one God, many faces), and they explicitly allow any religious text to be taken as a valid source of "wisdom"....
Pantheism? Petitioners to the Craft are required to profess a belief in monotheism!

As for religious texts, we don't dictate to another man his beliefs. We strive to be inclusive, therefore, we allow a candidate to take his oaths (which are only binding upon a man's conscience; the penalties being purely symbolic) upon whatever book he believes to be divinely inspired.

As a Freemason, I feel a few points should be clarified:


Freemasonry is built on relief of the distressed. But you seem to equate charity with a secret Good Ole Boys club.

And most masonic charity goes (http://www.shrinershq.org/hospitals/index.html) to (http://www.knightstemplar.org/ktef/ktef-faq.htm) non-masons (http://www.tallcedars.org/information/efforts.htm), particularly children.

That said, if you have a social network--especially one of men whose character you can trust--it's foolish not to use it. Granted, there would be the potential for abuse in such a system, which is why private business is never discussed in masonic lodges.


That's not Freemasonry's rule; that's the Vatican's (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09771a.htm), from Clement XII to Leo XIII. The Catholic Church must condemn an organization that promotes the natural dignity of man, democracy, and other evils.


When I was raised, I was a tailor making less than $10K/year. What did they need me for, to make the ritual vestments?


Pantheism? Petitioners to the Craft are required to profess a belief in monotheism!

As for religious texts, we don't dictate to another man his beliefs. We strive to be inclusive, therefore, we allow a candidate to take his oaths (which are only binding upon a man's conscience; the penalties being purely symbolic) upon whatever book he believes to be divinely inspired.
Great!
Are you going to be on often, perhaps? I've come to a few realizations of late, and at least one has to do with some thing or two you might be able to clarify for me (if you would so indulge).
If not, i nonetheless appreciate someone with actual experience posting here. :)

I'm always glad to answer any questions I can, though I can't guarantee that I'll see them if they're buried in one of these fora. Best thing to do would be to send a private message with an e-mail address.

(By the way, if anyone's wondering about credentials, I'm Chaplain of Greater Johnstown Lodge No. 538 F&AM and Allegheny Mountain Forest No. 127 Tall Cedars of Lebanon, and a noble in good standing of Jaffa Shrine.)

I'm always glad to answer any questions I can, though I can't guarantee that I'll see them if they're buried in one of these fora. Best thing to do would be to send a private message with an e-mail address.

(By the way, if anyone's wondering about credentials, I'm Chaplain of Greater Johnstown Lodge No. 538 F&AM and Allegheny Mountain Forest No. 127 Tall Cedars of Lebanon, and a noble in good standing of Jaffa Shrine.)
*bows*
Thank you. Perhaps i could TG you?
I'm a little spotty tonight so it might take a little while.

That sounds quite reasonable.

That sounds quite reasonable.
I'm sure a few here would testify to the contrary :D - but i respect your candor, and i find your statements faithful to the sentiments expressed by a mason friend of mine (who was the bassist for our band a while back) - he didn't make a badge of it, but found himself a bit chagrined to the common assumptions made. He pointed out how most of the meetings were easily observable, and if anyone had any significant queries to the group aspects, it really wouldn't be that hard to find out.
I haven't had much success with initiating the TG's lately (including with yourself) but i receive them easily enough.
I think something that could be qualified well (given the nature of this forum) would be determination of specific comments by founding members of the United States - and how many things have twisted around certain fateful statements. I think that's one thing i would ask you about - but it's not the most pressing.