NationStates Jolt Archive

Click (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-ana)

I've been considering this for a while and come to several different conclusions, which I will bring up when I have more time to post.

I'd like to know peoples' thoughts on this debate. Look up some more information on Google, maybe check out what these sites look like, say etc.

Please keep in mind: The popular website "Ana's Underground Grotto", frequently used as the prime example in anti-Pro-Ana articles, is considered extreme even by many other pro-anas, many of whom find some of its content offensive (for example, the attacks against those who are not 'ana', the "ritual to invoke Ana", and so on). Please do not use the "Grotto" as your main source of an "inside look" at pro-ana. It's not a very good example.

(Note: I myself am not pro-ana.)

This strikes me as awkward because I don't understand why individuals would want to put their health and lives in jeopardy for the sake of being skinny. Obviously theres something wrong here.

Exactly, but do you support their right to do so without being censored?

Well, they're slowly killing themselves aren't they? What makes it different from suicide?

This strikes me as awkward because I don't understand why individuals would want to put their health and lives in jeopardy for the sake of being skinny. Obviously theres something wrong here.
Because there's nothing sexier than a girl who looks like she just got out of Auschwitz.

Well, they're slowly killing themselves aren't they? What makes it different from suicide?

They're proud of it?

Click (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-ana)

I've been considering this for a while and come to several different conclusions, which I will bring up when I have more time to post.

I'd like to know peoples' thoughts on this debate. Look up some more information on Google, maybe check out what these sites look like, say etc.

Please keep in mind: The popular website "Ana's Underground Grotto", frequently used as the prime example in anti-Pro-Ana articles, is considered extreme even by many other pro-anas, many of whom find some of its content offensive (for example, the attacks against those who are not 'ana', the "ritual to invoke Ana", and so on). Please do not use the "Grotto" as your main source of an "inside look" at pro-ana. It's not a very good example.

(Note: I myself am not pro-ana.)

I was actually thinking of starting a thread on the topic, since I recently found out a close friend was a 'subscriber' to a pro-ana forum.

My personal opinion is that pro-ana sites should be shutdown, with no appeal, the instant they are discovered.

They do no good, only harm.

They're proud of it?

They may be proud, but that still doesn't change the fact that they're jeopardizing their lives in the name of skinniness.

*shrug* Well, I don't have to look at them do I?

I was actually thinking of starting a thread on the topic, since I recently found out a close friend was a 'subscriber' to a pro-ana forum.

My personal opinion is that pro-ana sites should be shutdown, with no appeal, the instant they are discovered.

They do no good, only harm.
I don't agree with pro-ana, but I don't think they should be censored. Freedom of speech, after all.

They may be proud, but that still doesn't change the fact that they're jeopardizing their lives in the name of skinniness.

Er, yeah, but it's a different mental disorder than severe depression (and hence possible suicide). It'd be wrong to say they're both similar conditions and that the same method of treatment is warranted.

girls *and some guys* become anorexic alot of the time because they feel they do not have control over anything. therefore, they gain the control by watching why the put in their mouths. or rather, what they DON'T. Slowly they lose the control and end up hospitalized..or worse

Click (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-ana)

I've been considering this for a while and come to several different conclusions, which I will bring up when I have more time to post.

I'd like to know peoples' thoughts on this debate. Look up some more information on Google, maybe check out what these sites look like, say etc.

Please keep in mind: The popular website "Ana's Underground Grotto", frequently used as the prime example in anti-Pro-Ana articles, is considered extreme even by many other pro-anas, many of whom find some of its content offensive (for example, the attacks against those who are not 'ana', the "ritual to invoke Ana", and so on). Please do not use the "Grotto" as your main source of an "inside look" at pro-ana. It's not a very good example.

(Note: I myself am not pro-ana.)

Its seems hard to understand until you have actually dealt with it. As with any circle of people who come together because of a similar situation/problem, you begin to feel as though you can trust the people with whom you're talking to. It seems crazy, but when people are dealing with something so serious they feel like they need the support, even if it IS harming them. A lot of people with ana/mia don't realize how much the disease/disorder/lifestyle is affecting their health until much later.

I was actually thinking of starting a thread on the topic, since I recently found out a close friend was a 'subscriber' to a pro-ana forum.

My personal opinion is that pro-ana sites should be shutdown, with no appeal, the instant they are discovered.

They do no good, only harm.
Sense when does something have to be "good" to be allowed to be said?

Its seems hard to understand until you have actually dealt with it. As with any circle of people who come together because of a similar situation/problem, you begin to feel as though you can trust the people with whom you're talking to. It seems crazy, but when people are dealing with something so serious they feel like they need the support, even if it IS harming them. A lot of people with ana/mia don't realize how much the disease/disorder/lifestyle is affecting their health until much later.
Very true. I'm neutral on this issue at the moment because I used to have severe anorexia for a short period of time, and for a while I visited and joined pro-ana sites just for the comfort of having others like me available to talk to.

The one thing I will completely and utterly disagree with here is "pro-mia". Now that's just dumb, in my opinion.

I don't agree with pro-ana, but I don't think they should be censored. Freedom of speech, after all.

I don't care about freedom of speech when it relates to the spreading of this kind of information... mainly to impressionable teengirls... legally children.

I wouldn't care about 'freespeech' on a kiddyporn site, I don't care about it on a pro-ana site.

I don't care about freedom of speech when it relates to the spreading of this kind of information... mainly to impressionable teengirls... legally children.

I wouldn't care about 'freespeech' on a kiddyporn site, I don't care about it on a pro-ana site.
But on a kiddy porn site there is no way to obtain the material without harm coming to someone that has no ability to consent. Not necessarily so …

Very true. I'm neutral on this issue at the moment because I used to have severe anorexia for a short period of time, and for a while I visited and joined pro-ana sites just for the comfort of having others like me available to talk to.

The one thing I will completely and utterly disagree with here is "pro-mia". Now that's just dumb, in my opinion.

But people who suffer from bulimia want to find a group of people whom they can call on for support as well. When you're psychologically beat down to the point were ana/mia seems like a good lifestyle then its easy to find yourself drawn to groups of others who feel the same way.

And I can totally relate to you, though its not something I really want to discuss on a public forum...

Child porn is illegal. Pro-ana is not. Also, many of these websites will warn people NOT to enter if they don't have an eating disorder or if they wish to "develop" an eating disorder. Child porn uses other people, more specifically minors who cannot legally give consent, but pro-ana is focused on only one person.

Sense when does something have to be "good" to be allowed to be said?

It doesn't... but we aren't talking about just 'saying'.

I have had friends... a lot of them... that have been anorexic. I came close to losing my ex-fiancee to anorexia.

I have looked at the pro-ana sites some of my friends have visited... and I don't see an excuse for allowing sites that teach you how to hide your anorexia, special exercises to cover the wasting your condition is causing, starvation techniques.

There is no control, there is no monitoring, there is no positive medical advice (usually... there could be exceptions).

Child porn is illegal. Pro-ana is not. Also, many of these websites will warn people NOT to enter if they don't have an eating disorder or if they wish to "develop" an eating disorder. Child porn uses other people, more specifically minors who cannot legally give consent, but pro-ana is focused on only one person.

No age control. Children can access these sites.

Personally, I think pro-ana SHOULD be illegal.

Saying that pro-ana groups are just forums for people to support each other is dishonest or deceived... unless your definition of 'support' includes a much more negative connotation than I would use.

It doesn't... but we aren't talking about just 'saying'.

I have had friends... a lot of them... that have been anorexic. I came close to losing my ex-fiancee to anorexia.

I have looked at the pro-ana sites some of my friends have visited... and I don't see an excuse for allowing sites that teach you how to hide your anorexia, special exercises to cover the wasting your condition is causing, starvation techniques.

There is no control, there is no monitoring, there is no positive medical advice (usually... there could be exceptions).
Again sense when does speech have to be positive or helpful to be said?

I understand your pain man but I could not stand by while people ban your ability to say something based on your perceived worth either.

No age control. Children can access these sites.

Personally, I think pro-ana SHOULD be illegal.

Saying that pro-ana groups are just forums for people to support each other is dishonest or deceived... unless your definition of 'support' includes a much more negative connotation than I would use.
Should we be censoring these sites or should parents be making sure that underage impressionable children do not have access to these sites

Again sense when does speech have to be positive or helpful to be said?

I understand your pain man but I could not stand by while people ban your ability to say something based on your perceived worth either.

If you've not reviewed any pro-ana sites, I'd say google yourself a few.

It's a fine line when we should limit free speech. As far as I'm concerned, pro-ana is on the wrong side of that line.

Should we be censoring these sites or should parents be making sure that underage impressionable children do not have access to these sites

How would you do that? They often have 'roving' addresses, might not respond to basic search query blocking, and aren't age-controlled material or nudity... well, there MIGHT be some nudity.

The point is, how do you build-in a safeguard? Sure - parents should know what their kids are doing... but then, anorexia is a disorder that teaches covert action. If teen-A can't visit her pro-ana at home, her school library probably doesn't block it...

Pro-ana, illegal? An interesting idea, but I disagree. Wholeheartedly.

Minors can access pro-ana sites, but unless their parents put controls on their computer, they can access any website they like, including illegal child porn sites...

If you've not reviewed any pro-ana sites, I'd say google yourself a few.

It's a fine line when we should limit free speech. As far as I'm concerned, pro-ana is on the wrong side of that line.
Personaly I feel there should be no limit to free speech beyond the immediatly harmfull (such as yelling fire in a crouded room)

I have spent a lot of time on said sites trying to learn how a few of my best friends were hiding it.

In fact i am kind of glad they were there, reviewing what people do helped me catch it early with a friend I absolutly adore

Pro-ana, illegal? An interesting idea, but I disagree. Wholeheartedly.

Minors can access pro-ana sites, but unless their parents put controls on their computer, they can access any website they like, including illegal child porn sites...

And, if the parent DOES put controls on... how do you filter pro-ana?

Should we be censoring these sites or should parents be making sure that underage impressionable children do not have access to these sites

Yahtzee

How would you do that? They often have 'roving' addresses, might not respond to basic search query blocking, and aren't age-controlled material or nudity... well, there MIGHT be some nudity.

The point is, how do you build-in a safeguard? Sure - parents should know what their kids are doing... but then, anorexia is a disorder that teaches covert action. If teen-A can't visit her pro-ana at home, her school library probably doesn't block it...
Oh there are ways :) if you really wish me to go in deep on Linux content filtering capabilities I will (and for you I will go review my research for my security thesis)

There are ways to filter by content … headers … addresses … domain names … images… topics … searches and you name it there is a way

There are some package solutions including one from sophos for windows as well as well as some network level security abilities

But in the end its about monitoring, putting the computer in the family room to start with and keeping an eye (something as simple as a history logger will help)

There are fancy technological methods but some good ol attention can keep your kids safe

Personaly I feel there should be no limit to free speech beyond the immediatly harmfull (such as yelling fire in a crouded room)

I have spent a lot of time on said sites trying to learn how a few of my best friends were hiding it.

In fact i am kind of glad they were there, reviewing what people do helped me catch it early with a friend I absolutly adore

I hear what you are saying... I learned a lot about how friends were harming themselves and hiding it from these sites. The problem is... you and I are an anomoly... often people on the 'outside' have NO idea that pro-ana even exists.

The other problem is - yes, I learned a lot... but how many impressionable teens did permanent damage to themselves with the same advice on the same page?

And, if the parent DOES put controls on... how do you filter pro-ana?
Same way you filter porn sites … or other material

And, if the parent DOES put controls on... how do you filter pro-ana?
How do you filter anything?

Anyway, parents have different values. My parents, for example, watched Monty Python's Meaning of Life with me and my siblings when I was... um, 10? Not all parents are going to want to filter pro-ana. I can't imagine what parents would want their child to access it, but still.

It's the parent's choice to give their child any Internet access at all. If the child finds some other way, the parent can close them off if they wish. They're the legal guardian. (Well, in this case... sorry, I should be saying "guardian", not "parent" here.)

I hear what you are saying... I learned a lot about how friends were harming themselves and hiding it from these sites. The problem is... you and I are an anomoly... often people on the 'outside' have NO idea that pro-ana even exists.

The other problem is - yes, I learned a lot... but how many impressionable teens did permanent damage to themselves with the same advice on the same page?
How many of them would have harmed themselves anyways? The extent may be minimized some but how much of this is an underlying condition. It may not be as efficient but people still manage to find out such things from friends and books and magazines

Oh there are ways :) if you really wish me to go in deep on Linux content filtering capabilities I will (and for you I will go review my research for my security thesis)

There are ways to filter by content … headers … addresses … domain names … images… topics … searches and you name it there is a way

There are some package solutions including one from sophos for windows as well as well as some network level security abilities

But in the end its about monitoring, putting the computer in the family room to start with and keeping an eye (something as simple as a history logger will help)

There are fancy technological methods but some good ol attention can keep your kids safe

As I said, though:

a) these sites may not be caught by conventional filtering... pro-ana itself is a 'disguise' word, and the sites may be better hidden than that.

b) again - even if the computer is right there in the middle of the room, teen-A can still be accessing these sites through an array of other portals.

All the same could be said for porn sites, Grave_n_idle. Take a look at the ChildSuperModels.com site! Kiddie porn or what?

If they want to filter pro-ana, then just add pro-ana to the filters under that name...

How many of them would have harmed themselves anyways? The extent may be minimized some but how much of this is an underlying condition. It may not be as efficient but people still manage to find out such things from friends and books and magazines

Are you thinking about the ramification of the words you use?

You just used the word 'efficient'.

Think what 'efficient' means in a psychological disorder that involves doing damage (some, irrevocable) to the body... and that can quickly result in fatal complications.

As I said, though:

a) these sites may not be caught by conventional filtering... pro-ana itself is a 'disguise' word, and the sites may be better hidden than that.

b) again - even if the computer is right there in the middle of the room, teen-A can still be accessing these sites through an array of other portals.
If they disguise the site so good that filters when done properly cant catch it there is very little chance the teen is going to find it themselves (because the extent of modification having to be done to the page would make search classifications by search engines useless)

Its like a kiddy porn store … yeah they may be able to disguise it so fucking good that no one would have any idea how to find it … including potential customers

Are you thinking about the ramification of the words you use?

You just used the word 'efficient'.

Think what 'efficient' means in a psychological disorder that involves doing damage (some, irrevocable) to the body... and that can quickly result in fatal complications.
I mean efficient in locating information not efficiency of the method

If they disguise the site so good that filters when done properly cant catch it there is very little chance the teen is going to find it themselves (because the extent of modification having to be done to the page would make search classifications by search engines useless)

Its like a kiddy porn store … yeah they may be able to disguise it so fucking good that no one would have any idea how to find it … including potential customers

Come now - I'm sure you can work out exactly how such things can be done.

Just as the OP in this thread could be someone promoting pro-ana (you have to admit... it IS a curious subject to raise with such an ambivalent opening), forums JUST such as this one are perfect ways to disseminate such information.

Not that I am saying that is happening here, obviously, but:

1) You could raise a topic on a forum.
2) You could link to 'soft' information, like an article about it, or a wiki.
3) You could then, specifically target those who expressed interest - with a direct communication.
4) Even if you didn't direct-communicate - you could put 'keywords' in your posts, that other pro-ana-curious individuals might be able to conventionally search.

Disseminating 'contraband' information would not be hard, if you can target your market.

I mean efficient in locating information not efficiency of the method

Sometimes, efficiency in FINDING the information, is equivalent to efficiency in the execution.

Come now - I'm sure you can work out exactly how such things can be done.

Just as the OP in this thread could be someone promoting pro-ana (you have to admit... it IS a curious subject to raise with such an ambivalent opening), forums JUST such as this one are perfect ways to disseminate such information.

Not that I am saying that is happening here, obviously, but:

1) You could raise a topic on a forum.
2) You could link to 'soft' information, like an article about it, or a wiki.
3) You could then, specifically target those who expressed interest - with a direct communication.
4) Even if you didn't direct-communicate - you could put 'keywords' in your posts, that other pro-ana-curious individuals might be able to conventionally search.

Disseminating 'contraband' information would not be hard, if you can target your market.

What an accusation. :rolleyes: Anyway, if your filter works like the ones I've seen, you wouldn't be able to access pro-ana sites even if I mention them here.

To clarify, I am NOT pro-ana.

Come now - I'm sure you can work out exactly how such things can be done.

Just as the OP in this thread could be someone promoting pro-ana (you have to admit... it IS a curious subject to raise with such an ambivalent opening), forums JUST such as this one are perfect ways to disseminate such information.

Not that I am saying that is happening here, obviously, but:

1) You could raise a topic on a forum.
2) You could link to 'soft' information, like an article about it, or a wiki.
3) You could then, specifically target those who expressed interest - with a direct communication.
4) Even if you didn't direct-communicate - you could put 'keywords' in your posts, that other pro-ana-curious individuals might be able to conventionally search.

Disseminating 'contraband' information would not be hard, if you can target your market.
Of course there are always ways around any security measure, but in the end those same methods can be used to circumvent legal discovery as well (if you made it illegal)

In the same case both of our propositions are compromised (though to be fair I COULD lock a machine down to the extent that they would not have such ability … it becomes unreasonable for the average user to do such …(Simple example hosts.deny = * and hosts.allow=(insert website you wish to allow your kid to here)) ) It is feasible to block anything that you have not specifically approved (actually not that hard … and even easier if you run your own DNS server)

So in the end such methods would circumvent both of our ways of dealing with blocking information transfers to minors. Of what more use then is making it illegal?

Hmmm... Well, if they want to die or are determined to die, let's just legalize suicide booths. It would be much more easier and cleaner than people doing this to kill themselves. I mean, really, it's a mess. With suicide booths though, they can just zap themselves out of existance and there would be no remains or the remains will be easier to clean and in one place. Right?

As it is, I am extremely tired so I can't give a meaningful or straightforward decision or contribution to this discussion because I frankly don't care. I think I'll take a nap.

Hmmm... Well, if they want to die or are determined to die, let's just legalize suicide booths. It would be much more easier and cleaner than people doing this to kill themselves. I mean, really, it's a mess. With suicide booths though, they can just zap themselves out of existance and there would be no remains or the remains will be easier to clean and in one place. Right?

As it is, I am extremely tired so I can't give a meaningful or straightforward decision or contribution to this discussion because I frankly don't care. I think I'll take a nap.
Not all pro-anas die. Some of them lose weight and then lose interest, some of them go too far and develop long-lasting anorexia nervosa, and some just don't lose any weight, then get frustrated and find another trend to follow. (Note: I'm not saying pro-ana is necessarily nothing but a trend, but it is pretty "trendy" in some areas of the Web. Kind of like bisexuality isn't a trend, but in San Bruno being bi is a total fad.)