NationStates Jolt Archive

I have been reflecting lately on how I, like many others in the United States as well as the rest of the world, have a materialistic mindset that we are what we have or that things will bring happiness. Yes, people were materialistic in the past, however less so, they placed more value on personal success, honor, and carrying on the tradition of business so to speak. Today we are only concerned with actually making money, and consuming things.

I am tired of having constant materialistic compulsions, and wanting. I will then get something, and not be happy or derive any happiness from it. Of course I value friends, and family realizing that that does bring happiness. Yet I still have this materialistic drive like many others.

I feel like perhaps this is unhealthy, for the society and for the individual, to be so fixed on these things.

So how do we begin to deprogram ourselves so to speak from this ingrained mindset?

Concentrate on emotional happiness, and realise that true contentment comes from our relationships, not our possessions.

So how do we begin to deprogram ourselves so to speak from this ingrained mindset?

When I get to feeling this way I always go shopping. Try that.

So how do we begin to deprogram ourselves so to speak from this ingrained mindset?

Sitting on top of a mountain in China drinking herbal tea worked for me.

i agree with you - its unhealthy for society and the individual, but its near enough impossible for the individual to escape properly without going to live in a commune or something like that, heh.

its amazing how consumerism works... companies tell you you have wants (and needs) that you otherwise would probably have little or no interest in, or be quite happy without, this then sparks off desire, and you end up giving them your hard earned cash for, generally speaking, something that will ultimately leave you unfulfilled and as hollow as when you started anyway. woo!



some interesting reads here: http://www.altruists.org/ideas/society/consumerism/
http://www.altruists.org/ideas/psychology/depression/

Fascinating website Pure Metal

The thing is. Money rules the world. Literally.
I love my friends and my family. But you always need some money to have that "extra" fun you need. And i dont mean buying a porsche, or having a 20 roomed mansion wherever. But one of my biggest dreams is to travel the world, doesnt sound too materialistic does it? I think it doesnt, but i would need lots and lots of cash and time to see all i want to see. I think there are limits, its ok to want to have things, some materials do bring you fun and confort, (a rather good house, car, appliances, money to get out, etc), however, i share the idea that some people are way fixated with the idea of being rich, and having everything at the tip of the fingers, things they don't even need or are just shallow imo (overexpensive clothes, etc).

You can be materialistic without pandering to corporations. I am highly materialistic, but I also base my material wants on what I actually want as oppose to what I am expected to want. I don't see the problem with materialism because in my opinion, the material world and its byproducts are the only things which are real.

We live in a material world, people. Without material needs and wants, we'd still live in bloody tribes, collecting the scraps the Hyenas (silly materialists they are) leave for us.

People need to quit bitching about consumerism, and they need to quit bitching about materialism. Everybody is free to set their goals in life as they wish, but there sure as hell is absolutely nothing wrong with setting materialistic goals.

People need to quit bitching about consumerism, and they need to quit bitching about materialism. Everybody is free to set their goals in life as they wish, but there sure as hell is absolutely nothing wrong with setting materialistic goals.

But then materialism and consumerism are driven by personal greed and envy. If you want to b e driven by greed and envy - thats up to you. :)

However, I will continue to do my best to influence society to stop all those nasty corporates using heavy psychological marketing techniques to play on those personal weaknesses of your.

After all, they shouldn't have the right to play on anyones personal weaknesses like that. Its not nice. And as a nice person, I must do what I can to help you.

All evil needs to suceed is that good men, like me, do nothing. And I don't intend to let that happen.

Ohh - I like that - maybe I'll use it as my sig :P

But then materialism and consumerism are driven by personal greed and envy.
No, people are driven by personal greed and envy. It's what nature has equipped us with to survive.

http://www.mises.org/story/2178

No, people are driven by personal greed and envy. It's what nature has equipped us with to survive.

Not at all. Go read up on motivational theory :) And you will see that greed and envy actually has little to do with want and need. Unless, it is stoked up of course. If you tell people those are prime motivators people will start to believe it. But take the contsant push, push, push away and personal greed and envy fall into the bacjk ground. They are both taught behaviours.

That, of course, is one of the reasons western societies look unpleasant to many other cultures - personally greed appears to be outr main motivator. In many other cultures it isn't - until we send our marketing people over there to teach them the right way. Well the way that the marketing people like, anyway. :P:P

Not at all. Go read up on motivational theory :)
Management Student here. What do you want to know?

My point is that the market economy and everything it brings is a natural state of human existence. It is not foreign to our nature, it is not evil, and if you happen to read the link I posted, it is not undesirable.

Personally I think that people achieve happiness by achieving goals they set for themselves. They can be material, spiritual or social, that's up to them. But we should not even try to value these goals, because only the individual itself can do so.

And if you prefer another culture, feel free to go there. But leave all your little comforts here, you wouldn't want to express your greed now by using a toilet that flushes.

Management Student here. What do you want to know?
Long term teacher and senior manager here. Any classes you need help with? Have you ever considered how much of what you learn is what you teachers want you to learn?

My point is that the market economy and everything it brings is a natural state of human existence. It is not foreign to our nature, it is not evil, and if you happen to read the link I posted, it is not undesirable.

Desirability is a matter of opinion, of course. The concept that supply moves to meet demand - which is the basic philosophy of the market economy is not a bad thing. What is a bad thing is manipulation of supplies and demands. That’s why governments who interfere to deeply in markets fail. However, for the last few years the businesses themselves have been manipulating both supply and demand big time. That’s what the marketing departments are all about.

Personally I think that people achieve happiness by achieving goals they set for themselves. They can be material, spiritual or social, that's up to them. But we should not even try to value these goals, because only the individual itself can do so.
Again almost right - but you don’t quite take it far enough the basic concept is sound - but you missed that personal goals and aims are not selected by the individuals alone but are partly formed through socialisation and upbringing. When any given society gets lopsided enough that it promotes one set of intrinsic motivators over another eg personal success over group success - then things get out of balance. Even worse, if you keep up the manipulation (in this case the marketing departments) you get positive feedback and a society that starts to get out of balance even more quickly - and is possibly on the way towards an extremist state where no-one else’s philosophies are as good as theirs.

Good and evil IS a matter of discussion. There is no absolute set of values agreed the world over. It varies according to the culture and background you come from :P It is an issue for society and the individual. Greed and envy certainly aren’t high on my list of good qualities, and last time I looked they weren’t high in the list of ‘good’ qualities inn the society I live in.

And if you prefer another culture, feel free to go there. But leave all your little comforts here, you wouldn't want to express your greed now by using a toilet that flushes.

LOL - The traditional non-argument - if you don’t like it go somewhere else. LOL. No Chance. I am a member of my society and I will fight to make it the way I think it should be. That’s what being a good member of a democratic society or group is all about.

BTW – I love you mental image that a flush toilet is materialistically greedy. Its not, of course, however it lets you bring an emotive element into play. I am giving you enough credit to assume that you knew you were sinking to the level of the tabloid press with that point :P

Now, wanting 3 or 4 flush toilets that are gold plated with specially heated seats - now that’s being materialistically greedy.

However, I will continue to do my best to influence society to stop all those nasty corporates using heavy psychological marketing techniques to play on those personal weaknesses of your.

After all, they shouldn't have the right to play on anyones personal weaknesses like that. Its not nice. And as a nice person, I must do what I can to help you.


Good intentions, but you fail to realise an important thing.

This is that corporations are not faceless monsters with a mind of their own - ultimately corporations are composed entirely of people. They're not coercing me into buying the product, they're asking me to.

And by trying to stop the people who make up corporations from "playing on my personal weaknesses" (asking me to buy their stuff), you deny them - living, breathing people like you or I - the freedom of speech which all people should have.

Government abolishing freedom of speech - It's not nice. And as a nice person, I must do what I can to prevent it from happening.

Sorry, can't help you. Hasbro keeps making cool Transformers.

We we are all materilistic to some extent, also, wanting a nice house, some money and food to survice is that materialistic?, Not gona lie, I love to have a state of the art computer, big screen tv etc etc, but come on who would not? Those things makes live easier or more enjoyable, even though I agree is love ones that ultimately makes us happy.

There is only the material.

Drink Until You Can't Feel Feelings Anymore.

That's What I Do!

Well, just think a bit, reflect on your life. Why do you work? Do you work to accumulate wealth, or do you work so that you can afford to live? I make money so that my family can eat, have a home, and spend as much time together as is possible. I don't care if my couches are old, or if my kitchen table is pitted and scarred, if our tv doesn't always work...because I spend as little time sitting around inside as possible. All the things that are the most valuable, family, learning, living...they require a certain amount of financial support, but beyond that certain amount, you're just buying for the sake of buying.

I don't need new shoes just because the ones I wear aren't trendy anymore (and haven't been for some time).

I don't need an iPod. I still have a record player that works, and I ain't throwin' it out just to keep up with technology.

I don't need a huge car. I just need something that will get me and my kids from point A to point B, preferably as cheaply as possible.

I don't NEED much. And neither do you.

I don't NEED much. And neither do you.
Aha, but I want much!

*sniiiiiiiiip*

I don't NEED much. And neither do you.
You're so extravagant. The bushmen live simply. You're far too bourgois. *scoffs verily*

Aha, but I want much!
Are you sure?

Once you actually think about what you NEED, you tend to put your energy into that, rather than into what you think you want.

You're so extravagant. The bushmen live simply. You're far too bourgois. *scoffs verily*
My ancestors lived in tipis. They didn't have horses, or metal...but when horses and metal came, they welcomed these things, and made them part of their culture. It doesn't mean they didn't know what to do without horses and metal...just as it doesn't mean I don't know how to live without a car, and a house. Do I need to live without? Not right now I don't. I don't need to live without a lot of things...I choose what I keep, and what I don't bother with because I have that luxury right now. Nonetheless, if I were in a situation where I had to let all those things go?

Life is still about living and who your surround yourself with...not about what you surround yourself with.

Are you sure?

Once you actually think about what you NEED, you tend to put your energy into that, rather than into what you think you want.
I know it seems a bit crass, but I know that I certainly want more than I need. Do I need a car? Certainly not, but I certainly do desire an automobile greatly. Do I need my DVDs? Certainly not, but I rather enjoy having them and watching them.

Of course, perhaps I'm possibly approaching materialism differently from you. To me shiny toys are the icing on the cake, that makes life all the sweeter.

Life is still about living and who your surround yourself with...not about what you surround yourself with.
All happiness comes from something material. Whether ir be knowledge or otherwise. So there could be good reason to surround yourself with material objects.

I have been reflecting lately on how I, like many others in the United States as well as the rest of the world, have a materialistic mindset that we are what we have or that things will bring happiness. Yes, people were materialistic in the past, however less so, they placed more value on personal success, honor, and carrying on the tradition of business so to speak. Today we are only concerned with actually making money, and consuming things.

I am tired of having constant materialistic compulsions, and wanting. I will then get something, and not be happy or derive any happiness from it. Of course I value friends, and family realizing that that does bring happiness. Yet I still have this materialistic drive like many others.

I feel like perhaps this is unhealthy, for the society and for the individual, to be so fixed on these things.

So how do we begin to deprogram ourselves so to speak from this ingrained mindset?
Not sure how to help you. Materialism is something that never took root with me. I find myself enjoying the company of others much more than the company of things. I never had to escape its clutches, just evade them from the beginning, which is surprisingly simple for a bookworm.

Edit: Ooo, just had a thought. Maybe you could develop a lust for knowledge, for understanding.

to follow up on what sinhue started

you have to realize that things cant make you happy. the search for happiness through material possessions is doomed to failure.

materialism is society's way of making sure that you dont make so much money that you put yourself in a position to be beyond societies control. wasting money means you will never be independant of work and the opinions of others

the first thing you do is stop going to stores as a form of recreation. no hanging out at the mall, no idle shopping at walmart. go grocery shopping no more often than once a week, to other stores less than once a month and only with a list. no window shopping. no leafing through catalogs.

turn off the tv. everything about commercial tv is designed to convince you of the best way to live--big ass house, designer clothes, expensive car, booze, jewelry, gadget. not just the ads but the shows themselves are always set in houses too big and clothing too expensive for the average person to afford.

if you are foolish enough to subscribe to magazines like PEOPLE, INSTYLE, US, etc, cancell your subscritption. those magazines make money by selling YOU to the advertisers. look at the ads... they are all about things that you dont need and shouldnt want.

smarten up. when you decide that you DO need a cellphone (for example) do some research and decide for yourself what kind of phone you need. who needs a phone that takes crappy photos and plays mp3s on tiny speakers? dont waste your money keeping up with the joneses, get what fits your actual need not what other people see as cool. why get an ipod for twice as much as a similar product put out by another company? learn to figure out what your need IS and get the best product that fits that need at the best price.

All happiness comes from something material. Whether ir be knowledge or otherwise. So there could be good reason to surround yourself with material objects.
But you don't need to be a glutton about it, which is the point of materialism/consumerism. Consume, consume and never stop...you should never be satisfied because a new model/edition/brand/whatever is out there and you NEED it!

I never said we don't need material things...only that material things do not define us. They are tools...they help us achieve our goals...they should never be the goal itself.

And happiness comes from something material? Even a dildo doesn't directly give joy...it's not going to get you off just sitting on the mantle looking pretty!

All happiness comes from something material. Whether ir be knowledge or otherwise. So there could be good reason to surround yourself with material objects.
No, not necessarily. Happiness can come from the quintessence of something, not the thing itself, from the sentimental value it might hold rather than the physical presence itself.

Are you sure?

Once you actually think about what you NEED, you tend to put your energy into that, rather than into what you think you want.
The trick sometimes is deciphering what you need, what you think you need, what you want and what you think you want. Sometimes they become a big tangled mess.

But you don't need to be a glutton about it, which is the point of materialism/consumerism. Consume, consume and never stop...you should never be satisfied because a new model/edition/brand/whatever is out there and you NEED it!

I never said we don't need material things...only that material things do not define us. They are tools...they help us achieve our goals...they should never be the goal itself.

And happiness comes from something material? Even a dildo doesn't directly give joy...it's not going to get you off just sitting on the mantle looking pretty!
The chemical reactions in the brain that signal pleasure to cause happiness.

I know it seems a bit crass, but I know that I certainly want more than I need. Do I need a car? Certainly not, but I certainly do desire an automobile greatly. Do I need my DVDs? Certainly not, but I rather enjoy having them and watching them.

Of course, perhaps I'm possibly approaching materialism differently from you. To me shiny toys are the icing on the cake, that makes life all the sweeter.
icing rots your teeth and makes you fat.

it depends on what you want to focus your life on. if you want to work so you can have more THINGS, well, its your life. in the end youll have a house full of things. your relatives will have a nice auction sometime after the funeral

some people would prefer to work enough to cover their expenses and spend the rest of their time with family. better to have the extra time with the kids than to work longer and harder so the kids can each have their own video ipods.

The trick sometimes is deciphering what you need, what you think you need, what you want and what you think you want. Sometimes they become a big tangled mess.
Of course they do. That's why we NEED to take more time in life to think things through. You just saw an ad for this really snazzy palm pilot. You are all afire thinking about it, picturing yourself using it, looking cool, snapping it to your belt, whipping it out to look at pictures, or enter things into your day timer...how wonderful. You think you NEED it. But stop! What is it you want? Just something shiny and new, something cool to occupy your time for a while? Is your life really so busy that you need this fancy dayplanner/webbrowser/picturestorer/etc? Will you actually use it? Will it in any way make your life better...or is it just a passing want?

If you impulse buy, by definition you are not reflecting on your needs and wants. You let your wants control you. If you let your wants control you, it means you aren't taking the time to figure out what it is you need.

The chemical reactions in the brain that signal pleasure to cause happiness.
But sustained happiness can not be caused by a series of discrete signals. Eventually the euphoria wears off, and must be triggered by something else. If your trigger is 'things', you must continue to accumulate 'things' in order to trigger that sensation. If your trigger is something less material, and more internal, you don't need to keep looking outward for your next fix.

I have been reflecting lately on how I, like many others in the United States as well as the rest of the world, have a materialistic mindset that we are what we have or that things will bring happiness. Yes, people were materialistic in the past, however less so, they placed more value on personal success, honor, and carrying on the tradition of business so to speak. Today we are only concerned with actually making money, and consuming things.

I am tired of having constant materialistic compulsions, and wanting. I will then get something, and not be happy or derive any happiness from it. Of course I value friends, and family realizing that that does bring happiness. Yet I still have this materialistic drive like many others.

I feel like perhaps this is unhealthy, for the society and for the individual, to be so fixed on these things.

So how do we begin to deprogram ourselves so to speak from this ingrained mindset?

We set aside a couple hours for family time. No TV, no electronics, just play a simple board game or play outside. Enjoy the simple things in life.

The trick sometimes is deciphering what you need, what you think you need, what you want and what you think you want. Sometimes they become a big tangled mess.

we are so rich these days it really is hard to decide just where to draw the line. in a 2 income family with both people making pretty good money you can have almost anything you want. we are all 5 year olds with $20 to spend at the candy shop. we can have it all and we can have it all right NOW.

you have to step back and think about what you want and what you need. how complicated you want your life to be. how dependant you want to be on the opinion of others "oh look he drives a lexus, he must be doing well". until you get a grip on your own desires, you wont enjoy anything, youll be pulled from purchase to purchase always wanting the latest greatest coolest without a thought to how well it will work for your life.

We have two incomes, and we don't live particularly high. Why? Because we bought a house for my in-laws, and have bought a house for ourselves. What we don't pay in loans, we put into education savings for our children, and our in-law's kids. It leaves us enough to put food on the table, pay the bills, and get out to the bush as often as possible. It's more than enough...much more than enough.

Of course they do. That's why we NEED to take more time in life to think things through. You just saw an ad for this really snazzy palm pilot. You are all afire thinking about it, picturing yourself using it, looking cool, snapping it to your belt, whipping it out to look at pictures, or enter things into your day timer...how wonderful. You think you NEED it. But stop! What is it you want? Just something shiny and new, something cool to occupy your time for a while? Is your life really so busy that you need this fancy dayplanner/webbrowser/picturestorer/etc? Will you actually use it? Will it in any way make your life better...or is it just a passing want?

If you impulse buy, by definition you are not reflecting on your needs and wants. You let your wants control you. If you let your wants control you, it means you aren't taking the time to figure out what it is you need.
I think about it all the time and still don't know what I really want or need, emotionally. Physically, it's all very simple. The emotional needs and wants are the ones that confuse the hell outta me.:confused:
No, I don't remember seeing that ad. Then again, I don't pay attention to advertising. I'm practically immune because of my tendecy to let my thoughts stray to my interpersonal relationships and ignore things of mass society and material nature.

we are so rich these days it really is hard to decide just where to draw the line. in a 2 income family with both people making pretty good money you can have almost anything you want. we are all 5 year olds with $20 to spend at the candy shop. we can have it all and we can have it all right NOW.

you have to step back and think about what you want and what you need. how complicated you want your life to be. how dependant you want to be on the opinion of others "oh look he drives a lexus, he must be doing well". until you get a grip on your own desires, you wont enjoy anything, youll be pulled from purchase to purchase always wanting the latest greatest coolest without a thought to how well it will work for your life.
Oooo, blanket statement. Bad one, too. I'm not rich at all. One and a half income family of six. You really shouldn't use generalizations like that. It isn't fair to those who aren't even as fortunate as I am. A little subtle "most of us" or something like that suffices. That's the thing, though. It shouldn't matter what others think. What should matter is what really makes one happy, what brings a smile to your face for no apparent reason.
Now I miss my apprentice again.:(

Oooo, blanket statement. Bad one, too. I'm not rich at all. One and a half income family of six. You really shouldn't use generalizations like that. It isn't fair to those who aren't even as fortunate as I am. A little subtle "most of us" or something like that suffices. That's the thing, though. It shouldn't matter what others think. What should matter is what really makes one happy, what brings a smile to your face for no apparent reason.
Now I miss my apprentice again.:(
You're missing the point.

The majority of people in Western society are 'wealthy' by the standards of the rest of the people on this planet, and even in relation to our own ancestors. Even a family on a single, middle income, is better off than most people living today.

The fact that you have free education, access to social services and infrastructure ALONE puts you in a much more favourable position than most people on this planet, because you don't need to scramble in order to provide yourself, and your family for these basic needs...freeing you up for non-essentials, even if they are few in your particular situation. Not having to live a subsitance lifestyle means you have more time on your hands for other things. Now what will you choose to spend that time on? Constantly yearning for more things...things that once you get, you soon tire of, yearning for something even better? Or will you focus on something, on a goal, that will actually bring you sustained happiness? Perhaps further education? Training in a field you adore? Working on interpersonal relationships? The choice is ultimately yours...but the fact that you even have that choice raises you up above the millions that don't.

You're missing the point.

The majority of people in Western society are 'wealthy' by the standards of the rest of the people on this planet, and even in relation to our own ancestors. Even a family on a single, middle income, is better off than most people living today.

The fact that you have free education, access to social services and infrastructure ALONE puts you in a much more favourable position than most people on this planet, because you don't need to scramble in order to provide yourself, and your family for these basic needs...freeing you up for non-essentials, even if they are few in your particular situation. Not having to live a subsitance lifestyle means you have more time on your hands for other things. Now what will you choose to spend that time on? Constantly yearning for more things...things that once you get, you soon tire of, yearning for something even better? Or will you focus on something, on a goal, that will actually bring you sustained happiness? Perhaps further education? Training in a field you adore? Working on interpersonal relationships? The choice is ultimately yours...but the fact that you even have that choice raises you up above the millions that don't.
No, I got the point. It's just that we don't all have $20 in a candy store, to use the other one's terminology. Some of us still have to manage things very carefully and aren't doing so well relative to the rest of the Western socio-economic system. My point is only made stronger by bringing in "third world" nations. They have even less material wealth, but still many of them are confused into thinking material wealth is the object of life. Of course, there are those many who realize that their relationships are what really matter. So no matter the system, there exists a duality of socio-economic ideology with other little shades of gray to compliment the two respectively. And without so much emphasis on material, many of those people with incredibly low standards of living wouldn't have to live that way. Compassion would inspire those with the material to assist those without it. Those poor, desolate people could be part of a more open, enlightened society instead of mired in the cesspool humanity has created of itself.

Oooo, blanket statement. Bad one, too. I'm not rich at all. One and a half income family of six. You really shouldn't use generalizations like that. It isn't fair to those who aren't even as fortunate as I am. A little subtle "most of us" or something like that suffices. That's the thing, though. It shouldn't matter what others think. What should matter is what really makes one happy, what brings a smile to your face for no apparent reason.
Now I miss my apprentice again.:(
uhhuh

look at what YOU have compared to what your parents had at your age.

youre rich

i live in one income for a familiy of 3. i have SO much more than what my parents had. and yet i wouldnt think to say that i was poor when i was growing up. a good family life is worth so much more than a rich family life.

sure there are poor people. they still have amazing luxuries compared to what our grandparents had. (or at least mine, i had old parents and im 48 now).

your definition of RICH is tainted by society saying that you should have even more. if you dont live in a big ass house,drive a luxury car, wear fancy clothing, have a bigass TV, etc. your life is crap.

uhhuh

look at what YOU have compared to what your parents had at your age.

youre rich

i live in one income for a familiy of 3. i have SO much more than what my parents had. and yet i wouldnt think to say that i was poor when i was growing up. a good family life is worth so much more than a rich family life.

sure there are poor people. they still have amazing luxuries compared to what our grandparents had. (or at least mine, i had old parents and im 48 now).

your definition of RICH is tainted by society saying that you should have even more. if you dont live in a big ass house,drive a luxury car, wear fancy clothing, have a bigass TV, etc. your life is crap.
I dunno what my father had, but my mother didn't have whole lot less than we do now. We have two slightly outdated computers, but other than that, it's about the same. Given that her family was a little bigger and was based on agrarian income, which was neither large nor stable, I'd say that only a very little bit has changed in that regard. But everything is relative. The poor are slipping steadily behind the masses and the rich in terms of luxury. They simply can't afford things. Some have to choose between their food and their baby's diapers and live in houses that make cardboard boxes seem desirable. Their basic needs aren't being met, so they can't seek the higher social and emotional needs that we can. Whether I have more than my grandparents had isn't relevant. What is relevant is what those at the very bottom have, or rather don't have. Wait, no, that isn't relevant to the thread. Not exactly, anyway. Oh well, you'll just have to tolerate my rant. *shrugs*

You know what I don't get???? Why so many of my fellow christians embrace capitalism, when it entails materialism, and that is sorta against our faith. Anyone have an answer for that?

I dunno what my father had, but my mother didn't have whole lot less than we do now. We have two slightly outdated computers, but other than that, it's about the same. Given that her family was a little bigger and was based on agrarian income, which was neither large nor stable, I'd say that only a very little bit has changed in that regard. But everything is relative. The poor are slipping steadily behind the masses and the rich in terms of luxury. They simply can't afford things. Some have to choose between their food and their baby's diapers and live in houses that make cardboard boxes seem desirable. Their basic needs aren't being met, so they can't seek the higher social and emotional needs that we can. Whether I have more than my grandparents had isn't relevant. What is relevant is what those at the very bottom have, or rather don't have. Wait, no, that isn't relevant to the thread. Not exactly, anyway. Oh well, you'll just have to tolerate my rant. *shrugs*

in the united states (and i assume in the richer countries of the rest of the world) even the poor have to get their heads straight about materialism. look at how many kids from poor families have fancy athletic shoes. their families had to sacrifice to get those. even if a the kid is old enough to have earned them himself, there were so many things he could have done with that money but he chose to spend $150 on a status symbol. i suppose it gives him incentive to work his way out of poverty so that shoes never represent a sacrifice again but its still sad to waste money on status symbols.

You know what I don't get???? Why so many of my fellow christians embrace capitalism, when it entails materialism, and that is sorta against our faith. Anyone have an answer for that?
modern "feel good" protestantism.

when you have to fill 5000 seats you cant afford to preach anything that might alienate your congregation. those megachurches dont pay for themselves eh? you have to preach that the lifestyle of the average parishoner is GOOD and make them feel that they are on the right track by devoting their lives to the american dream.

otherwise they and their donations will go somewhere else.

It will be enough to define the technocracy as that society in which those who fovern justify themselves by appeal to technical experts who, in turn, justify themselves by appeal to scientific forms of knowledge. Beyond the authority of science, there is no appeal.

We call it "education", the "life of the mind", the "pursuit of the truth". But it is a matter of machine-tooling the young to the needs of our various baroque bureaucracies: corporate, governmental, military, trade union and educational.

We call it "free enterprise". But it is a vastly restrictive system of oligopolistic market manipulation, tied by institutionalized cooruption to teh greatest munitions boondoggle in history and dedicated to infantilizing the public by turning it into a herd of compulsive consumers.

That was 1969, from his book The Making of a Counter Culture. In the wake of Enron, the high-tech War on Terror and W's consumer patriotism, it's not possible for me to say that Roszak's description is outdated.

Perhaps we need to be reminded that the counterculture Roszak had seen developing ("the conflict will reach its peak when those who are now 11 or 12 years old reach their late 20s, say about 1984") had, by 1984 succumbed to the Reagan-Bush years during which the generation of the 60s (and those same 11- and 12-year-olds) were far from "turned on". They were "plugged in". The day of the personal computer, cell phone and Sharper Image was just dawning. If the counterculture had hoped to turn work into life, just the opposite was happening. Now we work at home and in the car.We work while walking down the street, cell phone attached to one ear like some kind of digital remora. The private is colonized by work and the demand for obeisance to work.

Technology is our nature. the first socializing experiences for our children are now with televisions and computer games. They learn through machines not only how to members of a particular culture but also how to be human. There is nothing innocent or harmless about those bizarre shmoos we call Teletubbies (I don't care if one of them is gay; they're a public menace).

In short, it is no longer the case that machines are an extension of our needs. On the contrary, we are extensions of the imperatives of machines.

The community of humanity now sits at personalized consoles (like this one, I'm aware of the irony), whether in office cubicles or the living room. It is here that we have our famous "global village." Our fateful paradox is this: to live in this community, you have to be alone.

[/paraphrase and extension of Curtis White from The Middle Mind.]

in the united states (and i assume in the richer countries of the rest of the world) even the poor have to get their heads straight about materialism. look at how many kids from poor families have fancy athletic shoes. their families had to sacrifice to get those. even if a the kid is old enough to have earned them himself, there were so many things he could have done with that money but he chose to spend $150 on a status symbol. i suppose it gives him incentive to work his way out of poverty so that shoes never represent a sacrifice again but its still sad to waste money on status symbols.


I know that story all too well. My parents had to, and still have to, sacrifice things for my sister, little brother and myself. For the first two its more of the status symbols with clothes and what not, with me now, its helping me pay for college. I can understand both cases though. I mean college is neccessary obviously, but so is status symbols. You don't know how embarrassed I was in grade school, when i had to wear hand me downs, and get the cheap shoes, and the kids were cruel about it. If you didn't have nike, or reebok, or what ever, then you were pretty much trash, and no one liked you.

Things are good to have. They're not everything, and they alone can't guarantee you happiness, but they are nonetheless a big boost in that direction. If you have a halfway rich mental or social life, 'things' provide a wonderful supplement that ends up with a net state of happiness. My advice is either to go shopping, because disillusionment with 'stuff' lasts right up until you see something you really can't live without :D , or to get a better non-material life. The pursuit of stuff wouldn't bother you if the rest of your existence was happy and fulfilling.

That's actually my new theory: the people who gripe and whine about how materialistic culture is now are the ones whose lives don't have enough besides material goods. If you have meaningful intellectual or social pursuits, you're perfectly happy to pursue things and stuff. It's just more happiness.

It's kind of like the productive wealthy - they have the most but need the least, because even if they were made destitute they can always produce more and rebuild it all with what's inside their heads.

For me, the key is to make sure that material desires are only part of my life. Being able to appreciate and enjoy things helps round you out as a person by broadening your interests and giving you new perspective on everything else.

There's nothing wrong with wanting or getting pleasure from having things; material desires are as much a part of us as anything else, and it would be a disservice in many ways to deny the happiness that comes from having nice things. The goal is for that to only be part of you, balanced out by a variety of interests that span from the material and physical to the intellectual and emotional; denying material desires because you see them as wrong can be equally as harmful as allowing them to dominate your interests.

But then again, allowing any one interest to dominate you is bad; obsession with material goods is equally as bad as obsession with religion, or politics, or anything else because obsession forces you to supress the others in order to focus on that one.

And without so much emphasis on material, many of those people with incredibly low standards of living wouldn't have to live that way. Compassion would inspire those with the material to assist those without it. Those poor, desolate people could be part of a more open, enlightened society instead of mired in the cesspool humanity has created of itself.
I agree.

But you realise that you are sounding like a communist, and that is bad.:)

You know what I don't get???? Why so many of my fellow christians embrace capitalism, when it entails materialism, and that is sorta against our faith. Anyone have an answer for that?
Well, some of you take a vow of perpetual poverty. Now if only we could get the rest of you to follow suit :p

You don't know how embarrassed I was in grade school, when i had to wear hand me downs, and get the cheap shoes, and the kids were cruel about it. If you didn't have nike, or reebok, or what ever, then you were pretty much trash, and no one liked you.
I DO know, and I didn't give a damn after a certain point. I was never going to 'keep up', and to be honest...why the hell would you want to? I wasn't going to wear Nikes when they were hip-deep in child labour anyway, and I didn't care if my jeans had been worn by four cousins before me. But then again, I had a strong cultural upbringing, and I was rooted in something beyond the need for peer approval. I think that helped in a major way.

I dont have a problem with materialism anymore. What really showed me the light was when I was arrested for growing mushrooms and had all of my possessions taken away. After that I experienced living on the streets with absolutely nothing. Also later I would think about something I used to have with sentimental value or whatnot (like a high school year book, favorite clothes or albums) and miss it but then realize that I didn't need it and the most valuable things I have were my family, friends and memories.

Having material posessions doesn't make you materialistic if you don't use those materials to define you.

Well, some of you take a vow of perpetual poverty. Now if only we could get the rest of you to follow suit :p


Well thats not exaclty right either. I mean nothing is wrong with having things, its just when you desire those things more than God, or if you let them control your life.

Like I went to a church where the preacher bragged about his new boat(from his wealthy church salary), and that sort of thing is wrong in my eyes.

You know what I don't get???? Why so many of my fellow christians embrace capitalism, when it entails materialism, and that is sorta against our faith. Anyone have an answer for that?
Aren't you supposed to be dead?:eek:

in the united states (and i assume in the richer countries of the rest of the world) even the poor have to get their heads straight about materialism. look at how many kids from poor families have fancy athletic shoes. their families had to sacrifice to get those. even if a the kid is old enough to have earned them himself, there were so many things he could have done with that money but he chose to spend $150 on a status symbol. i suppose it gives him incentive to work his way out of poverty so that shoes never represent a sacrifice again but its still sad to waste money on status symbols.
I know that happens too, probably much more frequently than those as poor as I described. I think it's absurd. You're right; they could have spent the money on more important things. Sacrifice is all well and good, for the right reasons. What I was trying to say is exactly what you said: the poor aren't exempt from the same material greed, they just have more difficulty accomodating it. The sad thing about it is that it really isn't that important. I suppose it's sad anyway to spend so much energy on these things without any real, meaningful result, but it seems more tragic to sacrifice so much for a net zero gain.

So how do we begin to deprogram ourselves so to speak from this ingrained mindset?

You work on yourself , which you can do something about, rather than telling everyone else how to live before you can show them a better way. Once you are happy and satisfied with your own personal way of being then you may lead by real example rather than by hypothesis and lecture.

I know that story all too well. My parents had to, and still have to, sacrifice things for my sister, little brother and myself. For the first two its more of the status symbols with clothes and what not, with me now, its helping me pay for college. I can understand both cases though. I mean college is neccessary obviously, but so is status symbols. You don't know how embarrassed I was in grade school, when i had to wear hand me downs, and get the cheap shoes, and the kids were cruel about it. If you didn't have nike, or reebok, or what ever, then you were pretty much trash, and no one liked you.
I didn't have any of those things. My mother did the wise thing and refused to falter to such petty demands my sisters had. I let others hate me and insult me. I fed off their hatred, their cruelty, to construct who I am. They were nothing to me, and I made sure they knew it.

I agree.

But you realise that you are sounding like a communist, and that is bad.:)
Communist one moment, fascist the next. *shrugs* I'm Centrist, so I'm allowed.:p
Actually, I have a quote for you, but I can't remember who said it: "When I give the poor food, I am praised as a saint; when I ask why the poor have no food, I am denounced as a communist." Something like that. I simply feel that it isn't fair to shove a few people into the mud without a sporting chance. There is no reason why so many people should experience such a level of impoverishment when the world certainly has the capacity to keep people from choosing between feeding themselves and feeding their children. I'm not saying everyone should be the same, do the same thing, receive everything from government distribution centers, just that some people suffer needlessly for the interests of the masses.

I DO know, and I didn't give a damn after a certain point. I was never going to 'keep up', and to be honest...why the hell would you want to? I wasn't going to wear Nikes when they were hip-deep in child labour anyway, and I didn't care if my jeans had been worn by four cousins before me. But then again, I had a strong cultural upbringing, and I was rooted in something beyond the need for peer approval. I think that helped in a major way.
I psychologically raised myself. My mother was always working so hard to raise us financially that I turned to books to teach myself anything I wanted to know. I immersed myself in all that I thought essentially true and noble, birthing my intellectual self. So where you had a strong cultural influence, I had none, but with a similar result. I got to pick and choose what became part of me, with exception to my natural traits.

I dont have a problem with materialism anymore. What really showed me the light was when I was arrested for growing mushrooms and had all of my possessions taken away. After that I experienced living on the streets with absolutely nothing. Also later I would think about something I used to have with sentimental value or whatnot (like a high school year book, favorite clothes or albums) and miss it but then realize that I didn't need it and the most valuable things I have were my family, friends and memories.

Having material posessions doesn't make you materialistic if you don't use those materials to define you.
Ah, good old nostalgia.
*starry anime eyes*

Actually, I have a quote for you, but I can't remember who said it: "When I give the poor food, I am praised as a saint; when I ask why the poor have no food, I am denounced as a communist
Dom Helder Camara.

Dom Helder Camara.
Thanks so much, Sin.
*adds to list*

Even squirrels have nuts they cant be without.

Even squirrels have nuts they cant be without.
But they don't define themselves with those nuts. BECAUSE THEY'RE SQUIRRELS! THEY DON'T HAVE A SOCIAL ORDER AS COMPLEX AS HUMANS!!
*clears throat and turns to other posters*
What? Why are you looking at me like that?

I am very interested in all of the points brought up here, especially those dealing with sociological theory etc.

I think Ashmoria, for me personally, had the best practical advice.

to follow up on what sinhue started

you have to realize that things cant make you happy. the search for happiness through material possessions is doomed to failure.

materialism is society's way of making sure that you dont make so much money that you put yourself in a position to be beyond societies control. wasting money means you will never be independant of work and the opinions of others

the first thing you do is stop going to stores as a form of recreation. no hanging out at the mall, no idle shopping at walmart. go grocery shopping no more often than once a week, to other stores less than once a month and only with a list. no window shopping. no leafing through catalogs.

turn off the tv. everything about commercial tv is designed to convince you of the best way to live--big ass house, designer clothes, expensive car, booze, jewelry, gadget. not just the ads but the shows themselves are always set in houses too big and clothing too expensive for the average person to afford.

if you are foolish enough to subscribe to magazines like PEOPLE, INSTYLE, US, etc, cancell your subscritption. those magazines make money by selling YOU to the advertisers. look at the ads... they are all about things that you dont need and shouldnt want.

smarten up. when you decide that you DO need a cellphone (for example) do some research and decide for yourself what kind of phone you need. who needs a phone that takes crappy photos and plays mp3s on tiny speakers? dont waste your money keeping up with the joneses, get what fits your actual need not what other people see as cool. why get an ipod for twice as much as a similar product put out by another company? learn to figure out what your need IS and get the best product that fits that need at the best price.

For instance I do have an Ipod, I have a Motorla RAZR Phone, I buy the $100 jeans, I subscribe to GQ. Most of my friends are also in the same materialistic mindset, I go out to clubs occasionally, etc. One thing I note is most of my friends are urban, and we all listen to popular rap etc. I don't pay attention to the material part, but many forms of music (not just rap, but that is my experience) promote total materialism, while there is rap with social messages it not as widespread. When I was younger I was more of an intellectual, and stayed in the house on the Internet or reading books. I actually found there was a more quaint happiness there than what I have now. I'm not trying to be anybody else, I really like nice things, but it is a compulsion. I mean even those who arent materialistic about clothing or being the jet set crowd can want the latest "gizmo" or "technological product". I do have spiritual values, and have a strong belief in those though overcoming materialism is still difficult for me.

But I think if you try to say marketing isnt brainwashing but totally natural, your wrong. Yes, it is natural for human beings to want comfort, and some things but marketing is at the level of sophistication or more of political brainwashing today. We are bombarded by it, and if you think of all the detail thought that goes into marketing as well as use of advance psychological techniques you would realize that it is manipulation.

For instance it may be for instance social status. But social status used to be more than material things. It was also about honor, community reputation, service to the community, wisdom, etc.

The problem with consumerism today is it has become the culture, and marketing shapes the culture.

If you look closely we have shifted fully from a values or traditions based culture to material value. While some traditions are good to be done away with, to create a more liberal free society, to be replaced fully by greed is not a good thing at all.

And someone made a good point why their fellow Christians embrace this lifestyle, I am fascinated by that too as truly it is the opposite of what Jesus taught and other prophets in the Bible. Several are of the opinion it goes back to those who founded the United States, and the work ethic there etc.

I am very interested in all of the points brought up here, especially those dealing with sociological theory etc.

I think Ashmoria, for me personally, had the best practical advice.



For instance I do have an Ipod, I have a Motorla RAZR Phone, I buy the $100 jeans, I subscribe to GQ. Most of my friends are also in the same materialistic mindset, I go out to clubs occasionally, etc. One thing I note is most of my friends are urban, and we all listen to popular rap etc. I don't pay attention to the material part, but many forms of music (not just rap, but that is my experience) promote total materialism, while there is rap with social messages it not as widespread. When I was younger I was more of an intellectual, and stayed in the house on the Internet or reading books. I actually found there was a more quaint happiness there than what I have now. I'm not trying to be anybody else, I really like nice things, but it is a compulsion. I mean even those who arent materialistic about clothing or being the jet set crowd can want the latest "gizmo" or "technological product". I do have spiritual values, and have a strong belief in those though overcoming materialism is still difficult for me.

But I think if you try to say marketing isnt brainwashing but totally natural, your wrong. Yes, it is natural for human beings to want comfort, and some things but marketing is at the level of sophistication or more of political brainwashing today. We are bombarded by it, and if you think of all the detail thought that goes into marketing as well as use of advance psychological techniques you would realize that it is manipulation.

For instance it may be for instance social status. But social status used to be more than material things. It was also about honor, community reputation, service to the community, wisdom, etc.

The problem with consumerism today is it has become the culture, and marketing shapes the culture.

If you look closely we have shifted fully from a values or traditions based culture to material value. While some traditions are good to be done away with, to create a more liberal free society, to be replaced fully by greed is not a good thing at all.

And someone made a good point why their fellow Christians embrace this lifestyle, I am fascinated by that too as truly it is the opposite of what Jesus taught and other prophets in the Bible. Several are of the opinion it goes back to those who founded the United States, and the work ethic there etc.
What I said was good, too.
*pouts*

You made good points too, hope other people continue to discuss this.

You made good points too, hope other people continue to discuss this.
Yay! Well, that's enough for me. I know what always livens up a thread to attract attention: spam.;)
Drags 'em in every time.

Long term teacher and senior manager here. Any classes you need help with? Have you ever considered how much of what you learn is what you teachers want you to learn?
I find that my teachers don't teach me very much at all...:(

What is a bad thing is manipulation of supplies and demands.
The thing you call manipulation is not an outside interference though, it is intrinsic to the process. Marketing is not the creation of demand - demand cannot be created, it can merely be responded to.
Even the most base, useless product is not being purchased because anyone forces anyone else to buy it, but because the buyer genuinely wants the product. In other words, the product does something the buyer wants.
Marketing is merely the process of finding out what the buyer wants, designing something that does it, and then making buyers aware of it.
I have seen a billion ads, yet I will never purchase brand-name shoes, because I do not have a need for the things a brand-name shoe does.

That’s why governments who interfere to deeply in markets fail.
Interventionism fails because it does not consider what people want. Marketing does.

Again almost right - but you don’t quite take it far enough the basic concept is sound - but you missed that personal goals and aims are not selected by the individuals alone but are partly formed through socialisation and upbringing.
They probably are. But why does it matter? Are the reasons someone has an opinion of any importance whatsoever to whether or not the opinion is good?

When any given society gets lopsided enough that it promotes one set of intrinsic motivators over another eg personal success over group success - then things get out of balance.
What balance? That's the problem - you assume there is some sort of neutral that we can move away from, but there isn't.
According to Hofstede, China is more collectivist than the US. Does that mean that China's society is more balanced or better?

Society is an abstract concept describing the way people live together. No more, no less. You can have your ideas about how that should work, but they'll remain your ideas, and only yours. Not anyone else's.

Greed and envy certainly aren’t high on my list of good qualities, and last time I looked they weren’t high in the list of ‘good’ qualities inn the society I live in.
And according to me, greed and envy are motivators for achievement, which means that at least in some cases, they can't be all that bad.
If it wasn't for greed (perhaps not envy, but that's something you should ask the socialists ;) ), we wouldn't have many of the things we have today. It was greed that has driven explorers, inventors and entrepreneurs the world over for centuries. Without greed, they may not have sought out the achievements that ultimatley helped humanity, but perhaps they would've striven more towards suppressing their abilities to live more like everybody else.

LOL - The traditional non-argument - if you don’t like it go somewhere else.
I agree it didn't sound too flash. But my point stands - greed and envy are major parts of the force that created our world. It was greed (which I'll define right now as the desire to improve one's own material wellbeing*) that made people think of, produce and sell toilets that can flush.

My point is that your alternative world which you strive to create (whether it be in a different place, or in a different time) would invariably make use of the products of greed, unless you'd be willing to reduce life back to the sort of situation we got to enjoy when all we had were tribal communities.

Because let's face it, what you seem to be advocating is Anarcho-Primitivism.

*And I do so knowing fully that you probably see some sort of difference between someone just wanting to do a little better, which is okay, and someone wanting to do a lot better, which would be greedy. I reject that difference, because I don't consider myself all-knowing and I can't look into people's heads and tell them how much they should value things, and for which reasons.

*bumpadumpbumpbump*