NationStates Jolt Archive

Or just a bunch of bullshit? (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C06%5C05%5Cstory_5-6-2006_pg7_6)

Did they actually buy the material?

Or just a bunch of bullshit? (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C06%5C05%5Cstory_5-6-2006_pg7_6)

Did they actually buy the material?
Too early to tell. The various news reports here over the weekend indicated that the suspects purchased the fertilizer from CSIS or RCMP officers.

Or just a bunch of bullshit? (http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C06%5C05%5Cstory_5-6-2006_pg7_6)

Did they actually buy the material?

If you combine their attendance at their own military training camps, and their communications of their intent to form a terrorist cell (it doesn't help that they talked about it online), and their attempt to buy three tons of ammonium nitrate - it all adds up to conspiracy charges.

Just because you're stupid enough to buy the stuff from police posing as fertilizer salesmen doesn't let you off the hook or make you innocent.

One might well ask, what a group of non-farmers who are talking about blowing things up would want with three tons of ammonium nitrate.

If you combine their attendance at their own military training camps, and their communications of their intent to form a terrorist cell (it doesn't help that they talked about it online), and their attempt to buy three tons of ammonium nitrate - it all adds up to conspiracy charges.

Just because you're stupid enough to buy the stuff from police posing as fertilizer salesmen doesn't let you off the hook or make you innocent.

One might well ask, what a group of non-farmers who are talking about blowing things up would want with three tons of ammonium nitrate.

So let's just execute them without a trial. No need to actually investigate or anything. :headbang:

So let's just execute them without a trial. No need to actually investigate or anything. :headbang:
No, they're going to get a trial.

But I wouldn't count on them being found innocent.

You may have noticed that they've been under investigation for over a year now. Would you like even more investigation?

Well if some guy came up to me and was like "Yo wanna buy some ammonium nitrate?" I would automatically think thats a little shady, even if i was thinking about building a bomb. But if they say theres no apparent plot, then why did they buy it? This requires investigation and I'd like to follow up.

No, they're going to get a trial.

But I wouldn't count on them being found innocent.

You may have noticed that they've been under investigation for over a year now. Would you like even more investigation?

I'd like them to get a proper trial and for the court of public opinion not to convict them before their actual judicial trial. If more investigation is required to convict or acquit them, then, yes, I'd like more investigation.

But, you know, treating people as the law requires is so, I don't know, passe?

I'd like them to get a proper trial and for the court of public opinion not to convict them before their actual judicial trial. If more investigation is required to convict or acquit them, then, yes, I'd like more investigation.

But, you know, treating people as the law requires is so, I don't know, passe?

Usually, if they have been investigation people for this long, and have that much of their Internet conversation down, and found their attendance at training camps, and add their intent to purchase ammonium nitrate (there isn't a reason for a non-farmer to purchase that much - none at all), they are fucked.

Yes, there will be a trial. But if there's so much as a single discussion of making explosives in any of their forum postings or email, they are truly fucked.

I have a feeling some people are going to try and sympathize and cover the behinds of these terrorists in popular opinion, much like the OJ Simpson trial. That is, everyone knew he was guilty, but he had massive 'not guilty' support from various sympathizers simply due to his status as a football hero, etc.

Did they actually buy the material?

Yes, they did make the purchase.
Of course, since the RCMP were already aware of their intentions, they had swapped out the ammonium nitrate, but the "cell" group made the purchase before the RCMP made their move.

So let's just execute them without a trial. No need to actually investigate or anything. :headbang:

No one is executed in Canada.
They will go to trial.
There is a long standing investigation already and it will continue.

I'd like them to get a proper trial and for the court of public opinion not to convict them before their actual judicial trial. If more investigation is required to convict or acquit them, then, yes, I'd like more investigation.

But, you know, treating people as the law requires is so, I don't know, passe?


They will get a proper trial.
There will be much more investigation still.
They are being treated as the law requires.

No one is executed in Canada.
They will go to trial.
There is a long standing investigation already and it will continue.

I actually understand that. That was a sarcastic comment pointed at a particular poster who seems to believe that their guilt is already a done deal, and who often seems to imply that the process of justice is unneccessary in (arbitrarily decided by him) certain cases.

So let's just execute them without a trial. No need to actually investigate or anything. :headbang:


I havent seen yet where anyone said they would be executed or that the investigation was closed.

Had you seen that somewhere?

So let's just execute them without a trial. No need to actually investigate or anything. :headbang:


Yea ! just like them Marines in iraq!!!!

I havent seen yet where anyone said they would be executed or that the investigation was closed.

Had you seen that somewhere?


Sarcasm is lost on this crowd. I must really, really, really be old.

Sarcasm is lost on this crowd. I must really, really, really be old.
I'm more than willing to make a bet that they will be found guilty.

I'm also waiting to see how many more scumbags are routed out of the woodwork in coming days/weeks as the guys arrested here give up names and other info.
I'm sure experts are sifting through their computers and cel phones now, getting tons of info. I hope they are watching airports too- when news of these arrests hit, I bet there was all types of scrambles to get out of North America.

Sarcasm is lost on this crowd. I must really, really, really be old.


Its likely that you're younger than me.

Sarcasm is generally indicated with some sort of dopey smiley- Without that and without being able to hear inflection or tone, you're comment sounded more hysterical than sarcastic- As if you were jumping to the defense of some wrongly accused, well intended boys that were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I have no idea the depth of their guilt yet, but trust authorities that appear to be on top of this one. These guys are dirty to some degree-only an imbecile would continue to deny that.

Its likely that you're younger than me.

Sarcasm is generally indicated with some sort of dopey smiley- Without that and without being able to hear inflection or tone, you're comment sounded more hysterical than sarcastic- As if you were jumping to the defense of some wrongly accused, well intended boys that were just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I have no idea the depth of their guilt yet, but trust authorities that appear to be on top of this one. These guys are dirty to some degree-only an imbecile would continue to deny that.


It's the point of view of an astounding number of posters here on NS that accused terrorists are either well justified in what they are doing, or are innocents caught by the evil government. In either case, they believe the government is a complete fuckup, and always wrong, and that "fair trial" means that the terrorists are freed, and the government has egg on its face.

It's the point of view of an astounding number of posters here on NS that accused terrorists are either well justified in what they are doing, or are innocents caught by the evil government. In either case, they believe the government is a complete fuckup, and always wrong, and that "fair trial" means that the terrorists are freed, and the government has egg on its face.

Unfortunately, I think you're right.

This Pakistani News source even mentions two of the men,already arrested on gun smuggling charges.
I guess someone planted those guns too?

I fail to see the OP's point on this issue. It seems like the Mounties kept an eye on these fellows for quite some time, and after a while, a couple of undercover cops pretended to sell them some fertilizer. After the deal was done, the Mounties swooped in and arrested them.

It seems pretty clear cut, with a classic sting operation being the capstone in a well handled investigation.

DK

read this, they are in deeper shit than you think. Coupla guys in atlanta were arrested earlier and some of those arrested in canada have links with them as well...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-canada4jun04,0,3394422.story?page=2&track=tothtml
the suspects also traveled to Toronto from Atlanta by Greyhound bus to meet with "like-minded Islamic extremists" in early March, according to U.S. court documents.

Authorities also have discovered communications between the men in Canada and Atlanta and other suspected terrorists abroad, including a group arrested in London last fall. The London detainees include a computer specialist known as Irhabi007, the law enforcement official said. "Irhabi" means terrorist in Arabic.

The suspects' "discussions were wide ranging, about a whole range of targets," the official said, though some focused on Atlanta and Washington, D.C.

None of the plots were imminent, authorities said. But the alleged targets included Canadian government buildings, oil refineries in the Unites States and a U.S. tower that they believed controlled aviation GPS systems, according to the official and court documents filed in the case.

Sadequee and Ahmed had visited Washington and videotaped the U.S. Capitol, the World Bank headquarters and some fuel storage facilities, federal prosecutors in New York said at a recent hearing.

Terrorism analyst Evan Kohlmann, who runs the website http://www.globalterroralert.com , said local groups were loosely affiliated with similar cells around the world and communicated through the Internet. "There are small groups of people like that here" in the U.S., he said.

"I wouldn't be surprised if there are other cells like this," said Kohlmann, who is based in Washington. "Unfortunately, that is the conclusion that has to be drawn from something like this.

"There is like a DNA-chain of operatives, and the thing that seems to connect them is computers, the Internet," he said. "They are organizing on their own, without the help of any senior operatives.

"These guys are self-motivated, and that's not encouraging when you are fighting a global war on terrorism, to see self-motivated terrorist cells popping up in Western countries like Canada."

The two U.S. suspects were charged in late April.

Ahmed, a 21-year-old Georgia Tech student, has pleaded not guilty to a charge of providing material support for terrorism, which carries a maximum sentence of 15 years. He was indicted in Atlanta. The Pakistani native moved to the U.S. with his family when he was about 12 and became a citizen, according to an FBI affidavit filed in Sadequee's case.

Sadequee, 19, has been charged with lying to FBI agents about his trip to Canada with Ahmed. He was indicted in New York and, if convicted, faces a maximum sentence of eight years. Sadequee was born in Fairfax, Va., the affidavit says. His family came from Bangladesh, and he had traveled to that country in August to get married. Bangladeshi authorities arrested him in April and turned him over to the FBI.

Ahmed told the FBI that the two met at an Atlanta-area mosque. In March 2005, they took a Greyhound bus from Atlanta to Toronto, paying $280 for two round-trip tickets. It was there that they allegedly met with Islamic radicals and discussed possible attacks in the United States.

Ahmed "acknowledged that the purpose of the trip was for [them] to meet with like-minded Islamic extremists," the affidavit says. "According to Ahmed … they met regularly with at least three subjects of an FBI international terrorism investigation."

They "discussed strategic locations in the United States suitable for a terrorist strike, to include oil refineries and military bases," the affidavit continues. "They also plotted how to disable the Global Positioning System [satellite network] to disrupt military and commercial communications and traffic. Finally, the assembled group developed a plan for traveling to Pakistan, where they would attempt to receive military training at one of several terrorist-sponsored camps."

Ahmed later went to Pakistan to try to get training, the document states.

Sadequee was questioned by FBI agents at New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport in August, as he was leaving for Bangladesh. When they asked about his travel to Canada, he allegedly told them he had traveled alone and had gone to visit an aunt. He left without incident.

The day after Sadequee's departure, Ahmed returned to Atlanta after a month's visit to Pakistan. When asked about other trips abroad, he mentioned his travel to Toronto with a friend named Sadequee.

Ahmed was questioned more closely in March of this year, the affidavit says, and he acknowledged the two had traveled to Canada to meet with other would-be "holy warriors."

DK

read this, they are in deeper shit than you think. Coupla guys in atlanta were arrested earlier and some of those arrested in canada have links with them as well...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-canada4jun04,0,3394422.story?page=2&track=tothtml

Yes, and I'm sure that there are still idiots on the forum who will still say that all of these guys are truly innocents caught up by an evil US government plot.

I'm sure that even if the guys who WEREN'T caught yet manage to pull something off, the terrorist-lovers will say, "well, it's not the terrorists' fault - it's the US's fault for not surrendering to them".

Yes, and I'm sure that there are still idiots on the forum who will still say that all of these guys are truly innocents caught up by an evil US government plot.

Just making sure I'm not being counted in this group. Until they're proven guilty, they are to be assumed innocent (at least the Americans mentioned). It certainly appears they will be proven guilty and if and when that happens, I'll agree that they are. Until then, we aren't to assume anything. Isn't that what the US legal system says?

Just making sure I'm not being counted in this group. Until they're proven guilty, they are to be assumed innocent (at least the Americans mentioned). It certainly appears they will be proven guilty and if and when that happens, I'll agree that they are. Until then, we aren't to assume anything. Isn't that what the US legal system says?
I'm not arguing the "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Yes, it's part of US law.

But, you have to admit, that the evidence is extremely damning.

Just making sure I'm not being counted in this group. Until they're proven guilty, they are to be assumed innocent (at least the Americans mentioned). It certainly appears they will be proven guilty and if and when that happens, I'll agree that they are. Until then, we aren't to assume anything. Isn't that what the US legal system says?

No, the US legal system does not say that we, as citizens, are not to assume anything. It states that the persons are legally innocent until they are proven guilty in a court. It says nothing about our assumptions or rational conclusions based on the evidence outside of court. You're mixing law with personal opinion.

Based the evidence that we've been presented with via the host of news sources, the only reasonable conclusion we can draw as informed observers is that they are guilty. By law, they are still innocent. By common sense, and the conclusions of the rational mind, they are most likely guilty.

No, the US legal system does not say that we, as citizens, are not to assume anything. It states that the persons are legally innocent until they are proven guilty in a court. It says nothing about our assumptions or rational conclusions based on the evidence outside of court. You're mixing law with personal opinion.


We as citizens are allowed to draw conclusions. We are not to attempt to sway others so that it is impossible for a fair trial to be conducted. Sure, it's legal for us to do so. But if that's the premise of our legal system that we not convict them before they are tried, shouldn't we as citizens respect that?

We may have the legal right to walk around calling anyone who is arrested a [insert crime here] but isn't it proper for us to reserve judgment until such time as the evidence can properly be presented and analyzed?

We as citizens are allowed to draw conclusions. We are not to attempt to sway others so that it is impossible for a fair trial to be conducted. Sure, it's legal for us to do so. But if that's the premise of our legal system that we not convict them before they are tried, shouldn't we as citizens respect that?

We may have the legal right to walk around calling anyone who is arrested a [insert crime here] but isn't it proper for us to reserve judgment until such time as the evidence can properly be presented and analyzed?

We've seen enough evidence presented in the press so far to hang them. Unless they can prove they weren't the people being investigated, I would have a very difficult time not convicting them.

We as citizens are allowed to draw conclusions. We are not to attempt to sway others so that it is impossible for a fair trial to be conducted. Sure, it's legal for us to do so. But if that's the premise of our legal system that we not convict them before they are tried, shouldn't we as citizens respect that?

Well, actively attempting to sway others involved in the case itself would probably result in a mistrial. And it isn't a premise that we don't draw conclusions or make informed judgments, nor is it a premise that the person is actually innocent until proven guilty, only that they are to be taken as innocent (there is a dichotomy in law in most cases, where you are either assumed innocent or guilty). And we, as citizens not involved in the case, don't actually convict anyone. A judge or jury of the peers should be doing that. As citizens, I think we have a moral duty to draw our own conclusions and keep a close eye on the legal system in order to make sure it functions as it was intended.

We may have the legal right to walk around calling anyone who is arrested a [insert crime here] but isn't it proper for us to reserve judgment until such time as the evidence can properly be presented and analyzed?

Analyzed by whom though? For them to be convicted, it needs to be analyzed by the court, jury, etc. But for a rational conclusion to be drawn that someone is guilty, it doesn't take the same process. In fact, because citizens who aren't involved in the case don't have the same legal formalities to 'prove' anything, observers are often the first to recognize the guilt or innocence of a subject. Such as in the OJ Simpson case.

Keep in mind that people are objectively guilty or innocent. The way we handle them in law is subjective to the state we live in. The real issue should be drawing rational conclusions of their actual, objective innocence or guilt as free citizens, and let the legal system work according to its own checks and balances.

Kazus,

I do not know where you are getting at but from all the evidence I've seen, they were literally planning an attack. Do not know where but that does not matter now that these morons have been caught.

I'm glad they are locked up.

So let's just execute them without a trial. No need to actually investigate or anything. :headbang:
We don't have the death penalty in Canada. No one's going to be executed.

I dunno, the report looked pretty cheesy. And how did they get the name of the suspects on there? The names of most of the suspects weren't released due to Canada's young offenders act which prevents any suspect under the age of 18 from having their name released to the public.

And the part where it said a woman's face in a burka looked Pakistani... weird.

And we must remember to recognize them as ALLEGED terrorists, because right now they're innocent until proven guilty.

This one still has me scratching my head.

The cleric preaching hatred of Canada??!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Maybe he watched too much SouthPark?

I am following out of curiosity.......

I dunno, the report looked pretty cheesy. And how did they get the name of the suspects on there? The names of most of the suspects weren't released due to Canada's young offenders act which prevents any suspect under the age of 18 from having their name released to the public.

And the part where it said a woman's face in a burka looked Pakistani... weird.

And we must remember to recognize them as ALLEGED terrorists, because right now they're innocent until proven guilty.


Next time, the police should wait until the terrorists blow up your house and kill half your family before they bother to investigate anyone.

Next time, the police should wait until the terrorists blow up your house and kill half your family before they bother to investigate anyone.

Oh, like the same way they did it with 9/11? Sure, why not.

Oh, like the same way they did it with 9/11? Sure, why not.

As I recall, there were loud voices (especially in the opposition party) who claimed that was the wrong way to do things - that waiting until after something happened was criminally negligent.

As I recall, there were loud voices (especially in the opposition party) who claimed that was the wrong way to do things - that waiting until after something happened was criminally negligent.

And that it is. I don't disagree with what the RCMP did in arresting those individuals. I trust they knew what they were doing. Its just that we're always assuming that just because someone got arrested for something that they are indeed guilty. We don't even know these people, yet we are calling them terrorists. Yes, there were explosive devices and chemicals found in their houses or whatever, and we have reason to be scared/suspicious but until after their trial is over and a sentence has been laid, they are, at the moment innocent until proven guilty. Thats basically what I was trying to say.

And that it is. I don't disagree with what the RCMP did in arresting those individuals. I trust they knew what they were doing. Its just that we're always assuming that just because someone got arrested for something that they are indeed guilty. We don't even know these people, yet we are calling them terrorists. Yes, there were explosive devices and chemicals found in their houses or whatever, and we have reason to be scared/suspicious but until after their trial is over and a sentence has been laid, they are, at the moment innocent until proven guilty. Thats basically what I was trying to say.


I think many here agreed in the innocent til proven guilty part- but just also agreeing it looks like they were caught red-handed and authorities so far appear to have done a thorough job in investigating and rounding them-and hopefully significant evidence up.

No one was saying to take these guys directly to Chop-Chop Square yet.