NationStates Jolt Archive

I've noticed--mainly in the U.S., though most assuredly elsewhere as well--that people who make sense, that stand for actual social freedoms, are often so afraid of admitting who they are that it is so easy for those who wish to suppress such freedoms, such as the Republican party(FMA my ass) have no trouble rallying support. We don't stand up for ourselves anymore. We're so afraid that we're hiding in our little closets, our cupboards, our safe and protected beds underneath the comfy blankets, too damned scared to speak out.

I say fuck that. I am who I am, and I'm proud of it. I will fight for my rights and damn who wants to get in my way.

So, I ask those of you like me: Why are you so afraid? Why don't you stand up for yourselves? Why are you so afraid of admitting who you are?

Hah, all Libertarians and Atheists are bisexuals?
Well you got it half right I guess.

Well, I don't know what my political party would be but I am a heterosexual agnostic with socially libertarian and economically free-market views.

I guess I piss off the extremist theists, the extremist atheists, the socialists, the conservatives, and who knows who else...

I'm hungry, I'm gonna go see if we have any chocolate.

O yeah? Well, I'm an asexual librarian gynecologist. So there.

Hah, all Libertarians and Atheists are bisexuals?
Well you got it half right I guess.
...err...what? Where'd I say that? I'm just talking about my specific self.

You know, I was asking a serious question with this thread. ~_~

...err...what? Where'd I say that? I'm just talking about my specific self.

You know, I was asking a serious question with this thread. ~_~

The whole afraid to tell who you are.
Hiding in closets.
Kind of side-tracked your objective.

The whole afraid to tell who you are.
Hiding in closets.
Kind of side-tracked your objective.
...it did? It was the whole point. I'm asking why so many people are afraid to admit who they are.

I've noticed--mainly in the U.S., though most assuredly elsewhere as well--that people who make sense, that stand for actual social freedoms, are often so afraid of admitting who they are that it is so easy for those who wish to suppress such freedoms, such as the Republican party(FMA my ass) have no trouble rallying support. We don't stand up for ourselves anymore. We're so afraid that we're hiding in our little closets, our cupboards, our safe and protected beds underneath the comfy blankets, too damned scared to speak out.

Why are you convinced that this is the case? And who, precisely, are "we"?

The only thing I ever say with true pride is that I'm trying to learn all I can.

Why are you convinced that this is the case? And who, precisely, are "we"?
Because I see it everywhere I go! People are literally browbeaten. Someone mentions a "liberal" stance on a political issue and they're swarmed by "conservatives" with counter-points and so much else that the "liberal" just slinks away rather than standing up for themselves. As for we, I'm just sorta defining anyone who might be considered as "left" on the political spectrum. Since I personally don't like such definitions, I suppose you'd have to figure out for yourself who exactly I'm talking about.

Because I see it everywhere I go! People are literally browbeaten. Someone mentions a "liberal" stance on a political issue and they're swarmed by "conservatives" with counter-points and so much else that the "liberal" just slinks away rather than standing up for themselves. As for we, I'm just sorta defining anyone who might be considered as "left" on the political spectrum. Since I personally don't like such definitions, I suppose you'd have to figure out for yourself who exactly I'm talking about.

That is completely opposite.
Everyone tends to be liberal and freedom-obsessed nowadays.
If people aren't getting treated like royalty by the government they are complaining.

Around fundementialist Christians I'm a homosexual, sadist, anarcho-communist
Around Muslims I'm a Jewish, Zionist, masochist
Around communists I'm a capitalist, sadist, Catholic
Around capitalists I'm a Stalinist
I'm whatever makes the people I'm around uncomfortable and disturbed.

haha "figure out what I'm talking about". not much of a thread to see here folks, though no doubt it'll hit at least ten pages

I've noticed--mainly in the U.S., though most assuredly elsewhere as well--that people who make sense, that stand for actual social freedoms, are often so afraid of admitting who they are that it is so easy for those who wish to suppress such freedoms, such as the Republican party(FMA my ass) have no trouble rallying support. We don't stand up for ourselves anymore. We're so afraid that we're hiding in our little closets, our cupboards, our safe and protected beds underneath the comfy blankets, too damned scared to speak out.

I say fuck that. I am who I am, and I'm proud of it. I will fight for my rights and damn who wants to get in my way.

So, I ask those of you like me: Why are you so afraid? Why don't you stand up for yourselves? Why are you so afraid of admitting who you are?


What are you going to call this club you are starting?

That is completely opposite.
Everyone tends to be liberal and freedom-obsessed nowadays.
If people aren't getting treated like royalty by the government they are complaining.
Really? Perhaps I'm just limited in how I view things at the moment. I've been basing this on what I've seen in all the states I've lived in...which, as it just so happens, were all states that are either Republican or at least Republican in the area that I lived in. I may be mistaken.

Still, my point remains valid for such areas, since the picture I paint is still real there.

Really? Perhaps I'm just limited in how I view things at the moment. I've been basing this on what I've seen in all the states I've lived in...which, as it just so happens, were all states that are either Republican or at least Republican in the area that I lived in. I may be mistaken.

Still, my point remains valid for such areas, since the picture I paint is still real there.

Well I suppose it has to do with the generations.
Listening to the 30's-40's talk, it's always about ultra-conservative (Nuke dem EYE-RACK-EE'S!"
Listening to the 13's-20's talk, it's always ultra-liberal (I want freedom! The world is so messed up, everyone messed it up. Our environment is screwed! Ugh, we need new politicans!!)

In some ways, this stuff is true for any political stance: no one wants to admit to radically supporting any position, so they all try to claim the same moderate ground. In other cases, people get drowned out on a regional basis, but in this age of webness there's always somewhere someone can express most of their views.

The real thing people need to start admitting and being proud of is the fact that they care about people and things a lot less than people think they do. Most of love, grief, etc., is social conditioning, people trying to act normal, not really caring about people. It devalues caring when one is expected to care deeply about everybody and everything.

Well I suppose it has to do with the generations.
Listening to the 30's-40's talk, it's always about ultra-conservative (Nuke dem EYE-RACK-EE'S!"
Listening to the 13's-20's talk, it's always ultra-liberal (I want freedom! The world is so messed up, everyone messed it up. Our environment is screwed! Ugh, we need new politicans!!)

Wait til you hear the majority of the 13-20s in 20 years. It'll be an amazing about face. It is the way its been for a good long while.

I've noticed--mainly in the U.S., though most assuredly elsewhere as well--that people who make sense, that stand for actual social freedoms, are often so afraid of admitting who they are that it is so easy for those who wish to suppress such freedoms, such as the Republican party(FMA my ass) have no trouble rallying support. We don't stand up for ourselves anymore. We're so afraid that we're hiding in our little closets, our cupboards, our safe and protected beds underneath the comfy blankets, too damned scared to speak out.

I say fuck that. I am who I am, and I'm proud of it. I will fight for my rights and damn who wants to get in my way.

So, I ask those of you like me: Why are you so afraid? Why don't you stand up for yourselves? Why are you so afraid of admitting who you are?
Congratulations, would you like your prize to be a cookie, a medal, or a trophy.

There are way too many people who shout out their political beliefs for everyone to hear where I live. Most of them are liberal to ultra-liberal, and I agree with alot of them, but I would love it if they shut up and gave me some peace. However, I've never lived anywhere conservative, so mayhaps you are justified. I suggest doing it in real life though, not on an internet forum.

Congratulations, would you like your prize to be a cookie, a medal, or a trophy.

He/she deserves nothing short of a hero biscuit.

Wait til you hear the majority of the 13-20s in 20 years. It'll be an amazing about face. It is the way its been for a good long while.
We have bad nutrition in the US. It catches up with us.

I've noticed--mainly in the U.S., though most assuredly elsewhere as well--that people who make sense, that stand for actual social freedoms, are often so afraid of admitting who they are that it is so easy for those who wish to suppress such freedoms, such as the Republican party(FMA my ass) have no trouble rallying support. We don't stand up for ourselves anymore. We're so afraid that we're hiding in our little closets, our cupboards, our safe and protected beds underneath the comfy blankets, too damned scared to speak out.

I say fuck that. I am who I am, and I'm proud of it. I will fight for my rights and damn who wants to get in my way.

So, I ask those of you like me: Why are you so afraid? Why don't you stand up for yourselves? Why are you so afraid of admitting who you are?

Any of your rights been restricted? Besides homosexual marriages (assuming you live in USA)....

Not so much grave digging, as it is robbing the morgue.

Bisexual, vegetarian, atheist, and Libertarian here. Amusing.

I don't like liberals. I don't like conservatives. I'm stuck right in the middle. You'd be surprised how few people are actually Libertarian that claim to be.

But, really, I'm not scared to tell people who I am...but why tell people who I am when I can relate values and beliefs to them? There are other people in the world like me, and if you just tell someone who you are, it reinforces the idea that there's only a handful of people like that - be it orientation, politics, or whatever - that exist. That's where the idea of "us" and "them" comes from when, really, there are many people teetering between views who just need a little sensible talking to sway them.

Don't be so martyr-ist, though. We're out there; we're holding our own. Some of us (Libertarians? Bisexuals? Atheists?) just aren't so sure yet.

Any of your rights been restricted? Besides homosexual marriages (assuming you live in USA)....

Actually, my personal freedoms were trampled all over during my younger years. Not so much now, since I'm living on my own.
Examples, I guess...
I went to a very small (3,000 people in the entire town) school, due to my parents not being able to afford a private school or a higher cost of living. At this school, they refused to serve vegetarian options for those of us who didn't eat meat, despite a poll taken with parents and students that showed it was wanted by quite a few. They also said prayers at football games, graduation, and quoted the Bible several times over the intercom. Because it was "student-led," I could do nothing about it except complain and refuse to stand for the prayers. I was nearly suspended for defending gay marriage in my Speech class, when my opponent in the debate did nothing but quote the Bible...no consequences for her, however. I (as well as a best friend of mine) was bullied - in plain sight of the teachers - nearly every day; I was called "fag" way too often and shoved into lockers and even punched and kicked at times. I was reprimanded if I defended myself. I was not taught Evolution in the school until 11th grade...I read about it in my spare time.

So, in essence, yes...rights are stepped on in the US, other than that of marriage...it just doesn't get noticed because, really, who cares what's going on in a little High School in small-town, AR?

Actually, my personal freedoms were trampled all over during my younger years. Not so much now, since I'm living on my own.
Examples, I guess...
I went to a very small (3,000 people in the entire town) school, due to my parents not being able to afford a private school or a higher cost of living. At this school, they refused to serve vegetarian options for those of us who didn't eat meat, despite a poll taken with parents and students that showed it was wanted by quite a few. They also said prayers at football games, graduation, and quoted the Bible several times over the intercom. Because it was "student-led," I could do nothing about it except complain and refuse to stand for the prayers. I was nearly suspended for defending gay marriage in my Speech class, when my opponent in the debate did nothing but quote the Bible...no consequences for her, however. I (as well as a best friend of mine) was bullied - in plain sight of the teachers - nearly every day; I was called "fag" way too often and shoved into lockers and even punched and kicked at times. I was reprimanded if I defended myself. I was not taught Evolution in the school until 11th grade...I read about it in my spare time.

So, in essence, yes...rights are stepped on in the US, other than that of marriage...it just doesn't get noticed because, really, who cares what's going on in a little High School in small-town, AR?

except that you don't have a right to a vegetarian meal, nor do you have the right to stop student led prayer (that btw they have a constitutional right to) nor do you have the right to an education as defined by what you think should be taught, in fact you don't even have a constitutional right to a state sponsored education.

however, the bullying and namecalling just sucks, and was probably against the law (the shoving you into a locker for sure.)

except that you don't have a right to a vegetarian meal, nor do you have the right to stop student led prayer (that btw they have a constitutional right to) nor do you have the right to an education as defined by what you think should be taught, in fact you don't even have a constitutional right to a state sponsored education.

however, the bullying and namecalling just sucks, and was probably against the law (the shoving you into a locker for sure.)

No, I don't have a right to demand a vegetarian meal.
But majority is supposed to rule in schools that are paid for by taxes, and if 67% of people who voted said they would enjoy vegetarian entrees being offered, then the only reason to not have them is that the school thinks them unnecessary. That's not democracy.

No, I don't have a right to tell other people they can't pray.
But I have a right not to have their religious views forced upon me - whether it be over an intercom or at my graduation - and that's precisely what most "student-led" prayer is. "Student-led prayer" is bunk. The whole point is that you're not made to participate. When the prayer, however, is read to the entire school as a whole, if you don't stand, remove your cap, or bow your head, you are frowned upon as a horrible, immoral person. Where did you think most of that bullying came from?
(Same goes for the "Pledge of Allegiance," but that's another rant.)

No, I don't have a right to dictate what I should be taught.
But neither do they. They have no right to say "Creationism is what I believe, therefore I am going to teach you what I say is correct." They have no right to deny me information I want, as it is my parents' money that is going to their pockets. They have no right to teach only their views and beliefs when this scientific theory is being ignored simply because they think it clashes with their views.

Do you see what I mean?

no one wants to admit to radically supporting any position, so they all try to claim the same moderate ground ... The real thing people need to start admitting and being proud of is the fact that they care about people and things a lot less than people think they do. Most of love, grief, etc., is social conditioning ... It devalues caring when one is expected to care deeply about everybody and everything.

I openly admit that I am an anarchist.
I care about the downtrodden and the oppressed, and couldn't give a monkey's about the boss class.

Do I get a banana from Vegas-Rex for doing both the things s/he said no-one does? :confused:

I'm a nerdy, messy-haired, flat-chested opera singer, and I'm proud of it!

well I'm a spiritual and non-religious bisexual, independently-thinking, left-leaning fan of chocolate and marijuana and I want my time in the spotlight dammit!

I'm a nerdy, messy-haired, flat-chested opera singer, and I'm proud of it!

Nerdy?

...do you roll 20s?

No, I don't have a right to demand a vegetarian meal.
But majority is supposed to rule in schools that are paid for by taxes, and if 67% of people who voted said they would enjoy vegetarian entrees being offered, then the only reason to not have them is that the school thinks them unnecessary. That's not democracy.
public school districts are not run by democracy, things are not voted on, there is a board, they decide. You could go whine to the board about it, but majority does not rule, nor is it meant to.

No, I don't have a right to tell other people they can't pray.
But I have a right not to have their religious views forced upon me - whether it be over an intercom or at my graduation - and that's precisely what most "student-led" prayer is. "Student-led prayer" is bunk. The whole point is that you're not made to participate. When the prayer, however, is read to the entire school as a whole, if you don't stand, remove your cap, or bow your head, you are frowned upon as a horrible, immoral person. Where did you think most of that bullying came from?
(Same goes for the "Pledge of Allegiance," but that's another rant.)

it's not forced upon you. We have the right to pray, just like you have the right not to. For the government to say that we could not pray in public, to make a law like that would be a direct conflict with the establishment clause.

No, I don't have a right to dictate what I should be taught.
But neither do they. They have no right to say "Creationism is what I believe, therefore I am going to teach you what I say is correct." They have no right to deny me information I want, as it is my parents' money that is going to their pockets. They have no right to teach only their views and beliefs when this scientific theory is being ignored simply because they think it clashes with their views.'
I seriously doubt that creationism was taught in your highschool, if it was or still is, I am sure a lot of good people would be throwing a bitch fit (as would be right)



Do you see what I mean?
I can see how it would be annoying and uncomfortable for you, but you don't have the right to be "comfortable and unannoyed" so your rights were not being taken away.

I had real rights (I felt at the time) being taken away during school, like my 4th amendment rights and my 6th amendment rights.

Nerdy?

...do you roll 20s?

No. I read classical novels, love Jeopardy!, and spend my Friday evenings alone.

And I'm a gay, liberal, atheist; thanks for sharing.

And I'm a gay, liberal, atheist; thanks for sharing.

:O! I am a bisexual, anarchocapitalist, atheist; now I've shared too!

*feels warm and fuzzy inside*

"I'm a bisexual Libertarian athiest, and I'm proud of it. "

Well ok, you're not alone... But what is the point in making a big deal about any of the above. Why do you feel the need to make it all cut and dry with labels? Can't you just do your best to be a good person, do what you will, and try to impact others positively and compassionately? You can be proud about who you are without all the "look at me! look at me! " crap. Most people find that kind of attention whore behavior quite annoying. I mean unless you're trying to start the Athiest Libertarian Bisexual Association...what was the point of your accussive out burst? Other than to draw attention to yourself...for whatever reason.

Maybe during the Libertarian Convention next week we'll run into each other and you can make the first words out of your mouth again be "I'm a bisexual Libertarian athiest, and I'm proud of it." Then I can slap you in person for being a dumb ass. :upyours: Worry about the stuff that matters.

"I'm a bisexual Libertarian athiest, and I'm proud of it. "

Well ok, you're not alone... But what is the point in making a big deal about any of the above. Why do you feel the need to make it all cut and dry with labels? Can't you just do your best to be a good person, do what you will, and try to impact others positively and compassionately? You can be proud about who you are without all the "look at me! look at me! " crap. Most people find that kind of attention whore behavior quite annoying. I mean unless you're trying to start the Athiest Libertarian Bisexual Association...what was the point of your accussive out burst? Other than to draw attention to yourself...for whatever reason.

Maybe during the Libertarian Convention next week we'll run into each other and you can make the first words out of your mouth again be "I'm a bisexual Libertarian athiest, and I'm proud of it." Then I can slap you in person for being a dumb ass. :upyours: Worry about the stuff that matters.

Did you read his whole post, and not just the title? I think his meaning was pretty clear, and mostly justified.

I've noticed--mainly in the U.S., though most assuredly elsewhere as well--that people who make sense, that stand for actual social freedoms, are often so afraid of admitting who they are that it is so easy for those who wish to suppress such freedoms, such as the Republican party(FMA my ass) have no trouble rallying support. We don't stand up for ourselves anymore. We're so afraid that we're hiding in our little closets, our cupboards, our safe and protected beds underneath the comfy blankets, too damned scared to speak out.

I say fuck that. I am who I am, and I'm proud of it. I will fight for my rights and damn who wants to get in my way.

So, I ask those of you like me: Why are you so afraid? Why don't you stand up for yourselves? Why are you so afraid of admitting who you are?

you're not a Libertarian in the economic sense of the word, then?

"I'm a bisexual Libertarian athiest, and I'm proud of it. "

Well ok, you're not alone... But what is the point in making a big deal about any of the above. Why do you feel the need to make it all cut and dry with labels? Can't you just do your best to be a good person, do what you will, and try to impact others positively and compassionately? You can be proud about who you are without all the "look at me! look at me! " crap. Most people find that kind of attention whore behavior quite annoying. I mean unless you're trying to start the Athiest Libertarian Bisexual Association...what was the point of your accussive out burst? Other than to draw attention to yourself...for whatever reason.

Maybe during the Libertarian Convention next week we'll run into each other and you can make the first words out of your mouth again be "I'm a bisexual Libertarian athiest, and I'm proud of it." Then I can slap you in person for being a dumb ass. :upyours: Worry about the stuff that matters.

what was the point of this post? Why are you making a big deal about this thread, when you obviously didnt even read what it was about? It's like "Oh look at me I can be a whiney complainer and make threats online".

public school districts are not run by democracy, things are not voted on, there is a board, they decide. You could go whine to the board about it, but majority does not rule, nor is it meant to.

Agreed, but when the board does not listen to you, why is there even a board? It is to represent the majority, thus the reason it being voted in.

it's not forced upon you. We have the right to pray, just like you have the right not to. For the government to say that we could not pray in public, to make a law like that would be a direct conflict with the establishment clause.

If having it read over the intercom, broadcasting their beliefs over the entire school, and having to sit and listen to someone damn you for not having their same views isn't being forced, then what is? Holding a gun to my head?
I didn't say you couldn't pray in public, but not in a federally funded establishment, like a public school, and especially not where - if someone does not participate - they are singled out and made to feel alienated.

I seriously doubt that creationism was taught in your highschool, if it was or still is, I am sure a lot of good people would be throwing a bitch fit (as would be right)

Well, doubt all you want; I went through 8 or so years of that school, and I know what went on there. Evolutionary theory was ignored, and Creationism was not to be questioned. I got sent to the office for questioning my 7th grade Life Science teacher's faith.

I can see how it would be annoying and uncomfortable for you, but you don't have the right to be "comfortable and unannoyed" so your rights were not being taken away.

I had real rights (I felt at the time) being taken away during school, like my 4th amendment rights and my 6th amendment rights.

My rights were being denied me in that I was forced to do and be things that were not my choice pertaining to religion and health.
How, praytell, were your rights trespassed upon? I'm curious.

No. I read classical novels, love Jeopardy!, and spend my Friday evenings alone.

Oh, I do that, too. Was hoping I'd found a fellow D&D nerd. =D

I'm a heterosexual Christian who... well, wait, that already makes me a minority in this thread. I've found majority opinion in the US to tend to be less than supportive of my views, but my rights have never been trampled on that I'm aware...

On the other hand, people in the US like compromise too much. Not that I mind compromise: it's a prime value required of democracy. But when democracy means "You can't actually say what you think," I don't like it.

btw, Speoth, I've been playing D&D for about a year now... no budget to get books for myself though.

I'm a heterosexual Christian who... well, wait, that already makes me a minority in this thread. I've found majority opinion in the US to tend to be less than supportive of my views, but my rights have never been trampled on that I'm aware...

On the other hand, people in the US like compromise too much. Not that I mind compromise: it's a prime value required of democracy. But when democracy means "You can't actually say what you think," I don't like it.

btw, Speoth, I've been playing D&D for about a year now... no budget to get books for myself though.

I have no trouble with people saying what they think, so long as they don't force me to hear it...if that's what you were talking about.
In fact, one of my good friends is a very straight, very Christian man and we have lengthy debates.

Oh, man, I've not played in a week or so. Shadowdancer with a Gryphon on this side. What's up, fellow D&D-dork? (=

I have no trouble with people saying what they think, so long as they don't force me to hear it...if that's what you were talking about.
In fact, one of my good friends is a very straight, very Christian man and we have lengthy debates.

Oh, man, I've not played in a week or so. Shadowdancer with a Gryphon on this side. What's up, fellow D&D-dork? (=

Clarify one thing for me: what comes across as "forcing you to hear something"? Preaching on the stree-corner you walk past on the way to work? Okay, probably bad taste. Insisting on talking about a subject you don't want to? Yeah, not good.

Just checking that you're not objecting to, say, someone holding a discussion with someone else in the same room that you overhear, or someone bringing up something you disagree with in a conversation, cause neither of those can really be avoided.

Me, I only play during the school-year... our group's been slow with the whole campaigning thing. I've played a Paladin (not a good choice for me), and a sorc/fighter I finally got leveled to qualify for Arcane Archer in our last session this spring. Not sure what I'll do next campaign. (We should probably take this discussion to a diff. thread, hmm.)

Clarify one thing for me: what comes across as "forcing you to hear something"? Preaching on the stree-corner you walk past on the way to work? Okay, probably bad taste. Insisting on talking about a subject you don't want to? Yeah, not good.

Just checking that you're not objecting to, say, someone holding a discussion with someone else in the same room that you overhear, or someone bringing up something you disagree with in a conversation, cause neither of those can really be avoided.

Me, I only play during the school-year... our group's been slow with the whole campaigning thing. I've played a Paladin (not a good choice for me), and a sorc/fighter I finally got leveled to qualify for Arcane Archer in our last session this spring. Not sure what I'll do next campaign. (We should probably take this discussion to a diff. thread, hmm.)


No, no! I have no trouble with people doing things like that. If someone brings up something while talking to me, and I don't like what they're saying, I will let them know. But by no means will I scream my rights are being taken away/breeched.
I'm fine, too, with people chatting about things where I can overhear them. I have to be where I work, and if one is that sensitive, well...one is going to be offended just about everyday. That's too much stress and work for me.
I'm talking more about "student-led prayer" when I say that. I'm find with others praying, praying in public, and even praying in a group. The example I gave earlier, though, is forced: when I am sitting in my first period class and someone comes over the intercom to do announcements and a daily prayer, that is forced. If I stand up, I acknowledge something I do not believe in. If I do not, I am singled out and alienated and - in the case of my small-town school - often bullied about it later on. That's what I meant by having views forced on me. If someone wants to yelp about God/Allah/Freya/Buddhism/Satan on the street corner, I have no trouble with that. I'll just ignore them or debate with them. I'm easy-going.

Oooh, Arcane Archer. Nice. My friend (in the campaign I'm in now, actually) is an Assassin, so that makes for some fun situations. Since I can Hide in Plain Sight and he knows his poisons...well...you can see where that goes.
Not to mention the Pirate-y fellow who's afraid of magic and hates my Gryphon. Amusing.
(Why another thread? I'm fine here if you are. =P There'll be a gap in my posts, though, as I'm going to go visit a family member really quickly. If I don't reply before you have to go, or the board gets lost or whatever, feel free to send a telegram, would you?)

No. I read classical novels, love Jeopardy!, and spend my Friday evenings alone.

:)

Oh, I do that, too. Was hoping I'd found a fellow D&D nerd. =D

D&D nerds R us! ;)

***

Er... I am me. So what?

I am an extra cheese pizza with double pepperoni topping.

Agreed, but when the board does not listen to you, why is there even a board? It is to represent the majority, thus the reason it being voted in.
so vote against them next election.



If having it read over the intercom, broadcasting their beliefs over the entire school, and having to sit and listen to someone damn you for not having their same views isn't being forced, then what is? Holding a gun to my head?
I didn't say you couldn't pray in public, but not in a federally funded establishment, like a public school, and especially not where - if someone does not participate - they are singled out and made to feel alienated.
you aren't forced to listen, you do that out of your own free will, however, you could have actually done something about them reading prayers over the intercom (like calling the ACLU) about feeling alienated...nobody can make you feel anything, you choose how you feel.



Well, doubt all you want; I went through 8 or so years of that school, and I know what went on there. Evolutionary theory was ignored, and Creationism was not to be questioned. I got sent to the office for questioning my 7th grade Life Science teacher's faith.
ignoring evolution is different than teaching creationism, and not picking apart a religious theory in a science class seems to me to be a smart move at keeping church and state seperate. Questioning a teacher's faith should get you sent to the office, since religion has no place in science class.




My rights were being denied me in that I was forced to do and be things that were not my choice pertaining to religion and health.
How, praytell, were your rights trespassed upon? I'm curious.
being forced to do things that are not your choice is not denying your rights, lots of people have to do things they don't want to.

I wonder exactly what kind of education you got though when you don't even know your basic constitutional rights.

4th amendment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)


6th amendment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution)

I'm hungry, I'm gonna go see if we have any chocolate.
tasty

Because I see it everywhere I go! People are literally browbeaten. Someone mentions a "liberal" stance on a political issue and they're swarmed by "conservatives" with counter-points and so much else that the "liberal" just slinks away rather than standing up for themselves. As for we, I'm just sorta defining anyone who might be considered as "left" on the political spectrum. Since I personally don't like such definitions, I suppose you'd have to figure out for yourself who exactly I'm talking about.
amen

Do I need a parade? A flag? A Manifesto?
I'm glad your "proud"... move on.

My right to this, my right to that. How many of you whiners have actually done something to earn your rights other than having been lucky enough to live in a country where people died to achieve such liberties.

Go join the military or something and risk dying for your rights before you cry and whine about not getting to enjoy them.

You don't deserve them, you're all just mooching (hiding like cowards at the thought of my previous statement). It's easy to say "I have a right" when you can mooch off the sacrifices of those that gave them to you.

My right to this, my right to that. How many of you whiners have actually done something to earn your rights other than having been lucky enough to live in a country where people died to achieve such liberties.

Go join the military or something and risk dying for your rights before you cry and whine about not getting to enjoy them.

You don't deserve them, you're all just mooching (hiding like cowards at the thought of my previous statement). It's easy to say "I have a right" when you can mooch off the sacrifices of those that gave them to you.

Saying "I have the right" IS standing up for them, if you are standing against those who are trying to take them away from you. And since when do you need to be violent about it, hmm? *cough*Gandhi*cough* So don't start the "go join the military" crap - sometimes the largest courage and the biggest sacrifice is to be peaceful.

I'm a Libertarian lesbian thespian with bi-sexual tendencies when the mood strikes. My gods are of my own choosing, or theirs. A cat, a wolf, a coyote and a fox. Period.

I'm patriotic but anti-government. I love my country, but I hate the way Americans have let the government take over because many are too lazy to do anything. Even decide what their kids watch, they want someone else to decide. What ever happend to For the People and by the people? Our forefathers would be ashamed of America today.

Ahh I feel better now.

Do I need a parade? A flag? A Manifesto?
I'm glad your "proud"... move on.

Apparently. Parades, Popes, Flags, Crowns, Special books, Special days, Special music, Tax-exempton and global political influence. *nod*

Saying "I have the right" IS standing up for them, if you are standing against those who are trying to take them away from you. And since when do you need to be violent about it, hmm? *cough*Gandhi*cough* So don't start the "go join the military" crap - sometimes the largest courage and the biggest sacrifice is to be peaceful.
the thing is he doesn't have a right to any of the crap he is whining about. You can't have your rights taken away when you don't have a right to it in the first place, and as far as I can tell he didn't even do anything to try to correct the problem short of whining some more and then coming and whining here.

I have no patience for whiners.

Around fundementialist Christians I'm a homosexual, sadist, anarcho-communist
Around Muslims I'm a Jewish, Zionist, masochist
Around communists I'm a capitalist, sadist, Catholic
Around capitalists I'm a Stalinist
I'm whatever makes the people I'm around uncomfortable and disturbed.


whear did you get that from, it's to good for a commoner like i assume you are (like the rest of us) to make up?

sometimes the largest courage and the biggest sacrifice is to be peaceful.

Or when you are too scared to stand up and fight that makes you sleep better.

Or when you are too scared to stand up and fight that makes you sleep better.

Excuse me?

...

Why did this thread get resurrected? Despite the point I tried to make, it was a horribly thought out thread that should not have been made, let alone resurrected! Damn it. I wanted this embarrasment to die.

...

Why did this thread get resurrected? Despite the point I tried to make, it was a horribly thought out thread that should not have been made, let alone resurrected! Damn it. I wanted this embarrasment to die.

Oooh, that is long ago.
I don't know, wasn't me.

Actually, my personal freedoms were trampled all over during my younger years. Not so much now, since I'm living on my own.
Examples, I guess...
I went to a very small (3,000 people in the entire town) school, due to my parents not being able to afford a private school or a higher cost of living. At this school, they refused to serve vegetarian options for those of us who didn't eat meat, despite a poll taken with parents and students that showed it was wanted by quite a few. They also said prayers at football games, graduation, and quoted the Bible several times over the intercom. Because it was "student-led," I could do nothing about it except complain and refuse to stand for the prayers. I was nearly suspended for defending gay marriage in my Speech class, when my opponent in the debate did nothing but quote the Bible...no consequences for her, however. I (as well as a best friend of mine) was bullied - in plain sight of the teachers - nearly every day; I was called "fag" way too often and shoved into lockers and even punched and kicked at times. I was reprimanded if I defended myself. I was not taught Evolution in the school until 11th grade...I read about it in my spare time.

So, in essence, yes...rights are stepped on in the US, other than that of marriage...it just doesn't get noticed because, really, who cares what's going on in a little High School in small-town, AR?

1) I'm not a diet expert so take this with a grain of salt (is that the expression?) When you are developing (teen), it's very hard to get all your protein needs via vegatables. You need to eat meat as well....
2) Since USA is majority christian, you got no right to block their rights. If students want to quote bible, they should. They cant force you to pray (and you didnt). Similarly, you cant force them not to pray.
3)Speech class thing is very stupid. You are right there.
4)Bullying sucks too but it happens to many people in moderate/mild degrees. You dont have to be "gay". You can be too short, too tall, too smart, too dim, too ugly, too fat, etc etc...However they should have repremended the attackers so you are right there too...

My right to this, my right to that. How many of you whiners have actually done something to earn your rights other than having been lucky enough to live in a country where people died to achieve such liberties.

Go join the military or something and risk dying for your rights before you cry and whine about not getting to enjoy them.

You don't deserve them, you're all just mooching (hiding like cowards at the thought of my previous statement). It's easy to say "I have a right" when you can mooch off the sacrifices of those that gave them to you.

How does joining the military have anything to do with it? Aside - of course - from being an infraction on those who are 'religiously' opposed to war?

How are those in the miitary NOW 'dying for our rights'? Our rights to what? To spread our political agenda? To capitalise on Middle-Eastern oil?


I agree people should stand up for their rights, and for the world the wish to see. I don't see any automatic connect to your militaristic vision.

How does joining the military have anything to do with it? Aside - of course - from being an infraction on those who are 'religiously' opposed to war?

How are those in the miitary NOW 'dying for our rights'? Our rights to what? To spread our political agenda? To capitalise on Middle-Eastern oil?


I agree people should stand up for their rights, and for the world the wish to see. I don't see any automatic connect to your militaristic vision.


*grins*
That's the whole thing, innit?
If you don't see it, you don't count.
And even if you did, your lack of firepower makes your position irrelevant.


So who do you think you are kidding Graven Idol,
if you think Old England's done.

My right to this, my right to that. How many of you whiners have actually done something to earn your rights other than having been lucky enough to live in a country where people died to achieve such liberties.

Go join the military or something and risk dying for your rights before you cry and whine about not getting to enjoy them.

You don't deserve them, you're all just mooching (hiding like cowards at the thought of my previous statement). It's easy to say "I have a right" when you can mooch off the sacrifices of those that gave them to you.

Uh, if you have to earn them, they aren't rights, they're rewards. As a person who served, I find it sad that you would suggest that I wasn't ensuring rights for EVERYONE but only for other people like me. I think the majority of people who have served would wholeheartedly disagree with you.

*grins*
That's the whole thing, innit?
If you don't see it, you don't count.
And even if you did, your lack of firepower makes your position irrelevant.

So who do you think you are kidding Graven Idol,
if you think Old England's done.

Uh? Yes?

Or... huh?

Fighting for your rights isn't necessarily the same as joining the military... indeed, the two options might be absolute counterpoints.

Or - was that the point you were making?

1) I'm not a diet expert so take this with a grain of salt (is that the expression?) When you are developing (teen), it's very hard to get all your protein needs via vegatables. You need to eat meat as well....
2) Since USA is majority christian, you got no right to block their rights. If students want to quote bible, they should. They cant force you to pray (and you didnt). Similarly, you cant force them not to pray.
3)Speech class thing is very stupid. You are right there.
4)Bullying sucks too but it happens to many people in moderate/mild degrees. You dont have to be "gay". You can be too short, too tall, too smart, too dim, too ugly, too fat, etc etc...However they should have repremended the attackers so you are right there too...

Mostly agree with you, though just a note: It is perfectly possible to get all the vitamins and minerals you need on a vegetarian diet. The human digestive system is actually better adapted to one, vegetarians spend 5 times less in hospital that omnivores according to the General Medical Council.
There is a myth that vegetarians don't get enough B Vitamins but anything from fruit, marmite to breakfast cereal is full of em.
There are no health risks for children on veggie diets

*gets down of his soapbox*

Food is nice

Food is really nice

By the way I am a sleep typer.

Herbivores must eat plants
Omnivores must eat everything
Carnivores must eat meat

To summarize: Since Humans are classified as Omnivores we must do as it says in the book.

To summarize the summary:We must eat all food so we must love it.

To summarize the summary of the summary: Love your food like you love youreself.

Mostly agree with you, though just a note: It is perfectly possible to get all the vitamins and minerals you need on a vegetarian diet. The human digestive system is actually better adapted to one, vegetarians spend 5 times less in hospital that omnivores according to the General Medical Council.
There is a myth that vegetarians don't get enough B Vitamins but anything from fruit, marmite to breakfast cereal is full of em.
There are no health risks for children on veggie diets

*gets down of his soapbox*

vitamins & minerals maybe. But as for proteins, when you grow up, I think you cant get enough of them via vegiterian means...


Good Protein Sources

Meat, poultry, fish, eggs and cheese are excellent sources of protein, providing all the amino acids that your body needs. However, the nutritional advantage of these animal foods must be set against their undesirable fat content and lack of carbohydrate and dietary fiber.

Protein is also available from plants, in the form of legumes, nuts, seeds, and grains. Many plant proteins do not provide the full complement of amino acids, and must be combined with other foods if they are the sole source of dietary protein. Plant produce that does contain a balanced complement of essential amino acids includes soy and soy products (e.g. tofu) and quinoa but soy products contain phytoestrogens which can be harmful in the wrong dosage. Plant foods also contain useful amounts of dietary fiber and carbohydrates, which are essential in a healthy diet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein#Nutrition

Mostly agree with you, though just a note: It is perfectly possible to get all the vitamins and minerals you need on a vegetarian diet. The human digestive system is actually better adapted to one, vegetarians spend 5 times less in hospital that omnivores according to the General Medical Council.
There is a myth that vegetarians don't get enough B Vitamins but anything from fruit, marmite to breakfast cereal is full of em.
There are no health risks for children on veggie diets

*gets down of his soapbox*

There is no evidence that a health-conscious non-vegitarian is at greater risk of dietary problems than a health-conscious vegitarian. There is evidence, however, that we are not herbivores so pretending as if we are suited to be a herbivore is absurd. Herbivores are provided with different teeth and different digestive tracts than animals that have evolved to digest meat.

There is no evidence that a health-conscious non-vegitarian is at greater risk of dietary problems than a health-conscious vegitarian. There is evidence, however, that we are not herbivores so pretending as if we are suited to be a herbivore is absurd. Herbivores are provided with different teeth and different digestive tracts than animals that have evolved to digest meat.

For once, I agree with you. Hopefully, in the future, we'll be able to produce perferct artificial meat by non animal sources. Then we wont have to kill any animals. Until then, meat source is needed for proper development. I think if someone absolutely has to be vegiterian, they should be vegitarian minus fish. Fish remember only something like 2 seconds of their lives, so dont feel guilty eating it...

For once, I agree with you. Hopefully, in the future, we'll be able to produce perferct artificial meat by non animal sources. Then we wont have to kill any animals. Until then, meat source is needed for proper development. I think if someone absolutely has to be vegiterian, they should be vegitarian minus fish. Fish remember only something like 2 seconds of their lives, so dont feel guilty eating it...

I actually find the idea of 'artificial meat' far more disturbing than the idea of 'real' meat - even with the necessity for 'slaughter'...

Mmm, this string of genetically created tissue tastes just like chicken!

Animal sympathisers suck. I don't mean like "Oh shit, stuff is going to go fucking extinct we gotta do something!" people, I mean "Oh shit, they're gonna eat that chicken, we better stop em!" people.

I actually find the idea of 'artificial meat' far more disturbing than the idea of 'real' meat - even with the necessity for 'slaughter'...

Yes, I don't like the idea of artificial meat either. I also have no trouble with the killing of non-self-aware creatures.

Yes, I don't like the idea of artificial meat either. I also have no trouble with the killing of non-self-aware creatures.

I'm all for 'humane' farming, and humane slaughter... that alleviates any negative aspects of meat-eating for me. But, manufacturing rolls of tissue, or whatever? Eek! :eek:

I'm all for 'humane' farming, and humane slaughter... that alleviates any negative aspects of meat-eating for me. But, manufacturing rolls of tissue, or whatever? Eek! :eek:

Exactly. Plus, if they were never live animals how can I become stronger by ingesting their souls?

Exactly. Plus, if they were never live animals how can I become stronger by ingesting their souls?

Precisely. :)

you aren't forced to listen, you do that out of your own free will, however, you could have actually done something about them reading prayers over the intercom (like calling the ACLU) about feeling alienated...nobody can make you feel anything, you choose how you feel.


No, listening of my own free will would be if I went to a specific place where they were praying. Such as a club meeting - which I have no problem with. I'm not against them being able to pray, but they are forcing it upon me. I can't just sit and ignore the loud voice over the intercom; if that's not being forced, then what is? Answer me that.
They have no more right to broadcast their beliefs over the entire school than I do to force them to hear my reasons why I believe there is no god. If I stood in the office and yelped into the microphone for the intercom system that he/she/it did not exist, even though some people share my view, would you be defending me?
Unfortunately, this is "student-led" prayer. That's what you're not understanding: I can't do anything about it with the laws as they are right now. Just because something is not prohibited, however, doesn't mean it shouldn't be. Slavery was once legal, women weren't allowed to own property, and people were performing abortions in back-alley clinics with coat hangers. Those things changed...this should, too.
Besides, I didn't choose how I felt when I was being stuffed into my locker, being called "faggot" openly in the hallways, and being stalked after school by some of the more zealous types. I didn't choose the humiliation and indignation I felt when, in my Speech class, I was shouted down for supporting gay marriage. I didn't choose the black eyes and bloody noses I got at the homecoming football game when I refused to stand for the prayer they read over the intercom.
This is a public school we're talking about here. It is federally funded. If it was a state funded establishment or a private school, then the religion pervading the system would be fine. State laws can differ from the national ones, and private schools are paid for out of parents' pockets. When a thing is paid for, however, by the federal government, then it has to abide by the laws that government sets.


ignoring evolution is different than teaching creationism, and not picking apart a religious theory in a science class seems to me to be a smart move at keeping church and state seperate. Questioning a teacher's faith should get you sent to the office, since religion has no place in science class.


You're right; religion has no place in a science class. Which is why she should have been reprimanded for preaching her beliefs so openly. She was talking about creationism, since she spoke of god creating the earth.
And, although religion has no place in a science classroom, you know what does? The Evolutionary Theory, which is a scientific study.
How else is a seventh-grader supposed to learn? She was teaching her faith; I asked a question about it. If you don't get something in a classroom, you question it. Getting in trouble for that is like getting in trouble for taking notes.


being forced to do things that are not your choice is not denying your rights, lots of people have to do things they don't want to.

I wonder exactly what kind of education you got though when you don't even know your basic constitutional rights.


I know my constitutional rights, and there is no need for you to be condescending or rude, since I've done nothing to you. I'm having an intelligent discussion and, although we don't agree, I've not been miffed or offended up until this point.
I asked, if you'd care to read back, how your rights were denied or trespassed upon specifically. I meant I wanted an example, not a snappy comeback.
If you'd like to provide the former, that would be fantastic.

1) I'm not a diet expert so take this with a grain of salt (is that the expression?) When you are developing (teen), it's very hard to get all your protein needs via vegatables. You need to eat meat as well....
2) Since USA is majority christian, you got no right to block their rights. If students want to quote bible, they should. They cant force you to pray (and you didnt). Similarly, you cant force them not to pray.
3)Speech class thing is very stupid. You are right there.
4)Bullying sucks too but it happens to many people in moderate/mild degrees. You dont have to be "gay". You can be too short, too tall, too smart, too dim, too ugly, too fat, etc etc...However they should have repremended the attackers so you are right there too...

Yep, that's the correct expression. Heh.
And, actually, it's not hard to get all your protein, if you know what you're doing. You can't get all you need from vegetables alone, it's true, but you can get it from beans, peanut butter, and soy products, not to mention the supplements that are provided. I assure you I'm quite healthy.

I have no right to block their rights, it's true, but they cannot force me to listen to their speeches and quotations day in and day out in a federally funded institution. They can pray, that's fine. I'm not saying they cannot. I would, however, have them pray in a private meeting or individually, not broadcasting it over the entire school so that no one can ignore it. It's amazing how many people will beat you up and call you names rather than pray for/talk to you.

I realize bullying happens to a lot of people for different reasons...I'm merely miffed it was allowed to go on as it was.

As far as the whole vegetarian debate is raging, I'm not worried about what you guys do, so long as it's not blatant animal abuse (eg, beating your dog with a baseball bat for fun?), so nothing to worry about there.
My significant other is a ravenous meat-eating omnivore, and I have nothing against him for it.
You don't force me to eat meat; I won't force you not to.

(=

As far as the whole vegetarian debate is raging, I'm not worried about what you guys do, so long as it's not blatant animal abuse (eg, beating your dog with a baseball bat for fun?), so nothing to worry about there.
My significant other is a ravenous meat-eating omnivore, and I have nothing against him for it.
You don't force me to eat meat; I won't force you not to.

(=

You haven't beaten your dog with a baseball bat before?

It's a great stress reliever.

You haven't beaten your dog with a baseball bat before?

It's a great stress reliever.

I don't even own a baseball bat...most sports are a no-go for me...they're too team-oriented for my liking.

Stress relief is spelled s-w-i-m-m-i-n-g!



...I don't have a dog right now either. Huh. Bad example.

IM DRUNK!

and proud of it.

Why not start a thread for people who think haircuts are important?

You haven't beaten your dog with a baseball bat before?

It's a great stress reliever.

Horses work better. They don't disassmble as fast.

I'm a drunk, libertarian, god-knows-whatist.

How do I fit in?

I'm a drunk, libertarian, god-knows-whatist.

How do I fit in?

Isn't the point of this thread (as it's deteriorated) that we don't fit in, and this makes us awesome, and therefore we do fit in?;)

I've noticed--mainly in the U.S., though most assuredly elsewhere as well--that people who make sense, that stand for actual social freedoms, are often so afraid of admitting who they are that it is so easy for those who wish to suppress such freedoms, such as the Republican party(FMA my ass) have no trouble rallying support. We don't stand up for ourselves anymore. We're so afraid that we're hiding in our little closets, our cupboards, our safe and protected beds underneath the comfy blankets, too damned scared to speak out.

I say fuck that. I am who I am, and I'm proud of it. I will fight for my rights and damn who wants to get in my way.

So, I ask those of you like me: Why are you so afraid? Why don't you stand up for yourselves? Why are you so afraid of admitting who you are?Hush now!!

Isn't the point of this thread (as it's deteriorated) that we don't fit in, and this makes us awesome, and therefore we do fit in?;)
yay, I fit in!

I love how a moderately interesting thread goes completely to shit ....

I'm a Straight, Libertarian, Free-Market Economist, who is relatively apathetic to religion. I'm much like Ayn Rand in my philosophy of Justice and Economics. I hate socialism, I hate those who proport it, I hate those who follow it. I hate the idea of equality. I'm obsessed with my own self-satisfaction and am an ethical egoist who is obsessed with Cars, Love, and Money.

I will just as quickly eviscerate a neo-conservative as I will a raging liberal-socialist.

I am not afraid to say who I am. I am a straight Jewish centrist. To bash Judaism, please see the Judaism thread I posted near the top of NSG.

Yep, that's the correct expression. Heh.
And, actually, it's not hard to get all your protein, if you know what you're doing. You can't get all you need from vegetables alone, it's true, but you can get it from beans, peanut butter, and soy products, not to mention the supplements that are provided. I assure you I'm quite healthy.

I have no right to block their rights, it's true, but they cannot force me to listen to their speeches and quotations day in and day out in a federally funded institution. They can pray, that's fine. I'm not saying they cannot. I would, however, have them pray in a private meeting or individually, not broadcasting it over the entire school so that no one can ignore it. It's amazing how many people will beat you up and call you names rather than pray for/talk to you.

I realize bullying happens to a lot of people for different reasons...I'm merely miffed it was allowed to go on as it was.

School is a big part of our life and I understand they want some religion there. "Private meeting or individually" sounds like "out of public sight". How would you feel if they told you they are ok with gays kissing only "out of public sight"?

I love how a moderately interesting thread goes completely to shit ....

I'm a Straight, Libertarian, Free-Market Economist, who is relatively apathetic to religion. I'm much like Ayn Rand in my philosophy of Justice and Economics. I hate socialism, I hate those who proport it, I hate those who follow it. I hate the idea of equality. I'm obsessed with my own self-satisfaction and am an ethical egoist who is obsessed with Cars, Love, and Money.

I will just as quickly eviscerate a neo-conservative as I will a raging liberal-socialist.
I'm a straight, libertarian, christian, who can veer towards anarcho-capitalism on a bad day. Despite my deep hatred for Socialism and the majority of what it stands for, I tend to be able to get along with Socialists more easily than far-right Christians. In my experience, it seems like economic principles are less concretely founded than social or civil rights principles in most people.

The Socialists I know will debate me on capitalism or free-market trading. Those I know on the far-right tend to ignore me (rarely) or get quite upset or worried when I mention how I am pro-gay marriage or pro-decriminalization of drugs. They will say how that is unethical, evil, sinful, or some combination of those three along with questioning the strength of my beliefs. Simply put, from my readings I don't see where Jesus would have been in favour of banning gay marriage, fighting pre-emptive wars, or letting the government spy on its people. Now my positions can make for some interesting conversations in a Baptist church. But I've always enjoyed being in the minority fighting against the majority. Now the tables are turned from when I was defending Bush in front of my ultra-liberal skater-punk friends in 2003. Still hard to admit that I supported the Iraq war at first, but I was just 15 at the time, and it's not like my friends had many valid reasons to hate Bush.

I know a libertarian atheist... and he seems kind of bisexual. Interesting

I'm a straight, libertarian, christian, who can veer towards anarcho-capitalism on a bad day. Despite my deep hatred for Socialism and the majority of what it stands for, I tend to be able to get along with Socialists more easily than far-right Christians. In my experience, it seems like economic principles are less concretely founded than social or civil rights principles in most people. The 'socialist' economic principles are bad solutions to a problem no-one's interested in fixing. They're the economic queivalent of radiation treatments. I'm an anarchist (and a bisexual atheist, by the way), and I don't like the socialist economic policies anymore than you do. There's just no viable alternative right now.

Socialism isn't about taxing the hell out of everyone. It's about giving everyone a fair shot at life & a minimum standard of living that won't reduce people to a life of poverty & misery. The means to that end aren't important for most present-day socialists, myself included. That's perhaps why socialists are more willing to debate this than your average rightwinger.Now the tables are turned from when I was defending Bush in front of my ultra-liberal skater-punk friends in 2003. Still hard to admit that I supported the Iraq war at first, but I was just 15 at the time, and it's not like my friends had many valid reasons to hate Bush.Live & learn. The important thing is not to get stuck on a bad idea, just to spite people.

Because I see it everywhere I go! People are literally browbeaten. Someone mentions a "liberal" stance on a political issue and they're swarmed by "conservatives" with counter-points and so much else that the "liberal" just slinks away rather than standing up for themselves. As for we, I'm just sorta defining anyone who might be considered as "left" on the political spectrum. Since I personally don't like such definitions, I suppose you'd have to figure out for yourself who exactly I'm talking about.

Are you referring to most college campuses today, where the overwhelming majority of professors are conservatives who regularly propagandize their political views to a captive student audience, ridicule students who express liberal opinions, look the other way when conservative students vandalize liberal publications, and generally facilitate intolerance of liberal views?

Oops, my bad. Somehow I interchanged "conservative" and "liberal." :p

Are you referring to most college campuses today, where the overwhelming majority of professors are conservatives who regularly propagandize their political views to a captive student audience, ridicule students who express liberal opinions, look the other way when conservative students vandalize liberal publications, and generally facilitate intolerance of liberal views?

Oops, my bad. Somehow I interchanged "conservative" and "liberal." :p
Yeah, those meanie-bo-beanie librul perfessers! They be making us think and junk! They shove their librul logic in our faces as though they were the ones in charge of the class or something! THE BASTARDS!!!

Yeah, those meanie-bo-beanie librul perfessers! They be making us think and junk! They shove their librul logic in our faces as though they were the ones in charge of the class or something! THE BASTARDS!!!


You can't order people to think, cooperate, and love.
I mean you can order -
but you can't actually expect decent results.

The surplus of cerebreum and the lack of guts of liberal positions do have the drawback of making such positions highly unpopular.

Yeah, those meanie-bo-beanie librul perfessers! They be making us think and junk! They shove their librul logic in our faces as though they were the ones in charge of the class or something! THE BASTARDS!!!Yea. It's tough having one's emotion-based authoritarian ideology exposed to an environment that encourages critical thinking.

Oh noes! They's not teachin dem to be good drones!!

You can't order people to think, cooperate, and love.
I mean you can order -
but you can't actually expect decent results.

Right. So what are the big tough conservatives whining about? It sounds like evil librul professors are helping the conservative cause, by getting the next generation of conservative voters all riled up. Hell, I think it would be wise for conservatives to plant some opperatives on college campuses, to pretend to be rabid liberals and oppress the crap out of conservative students! It would help whip up enthusiasm for The Party.


The surplus of cerebreum and the lack of guts of liberal positions do have the drawback of making such positions highly unpopular.
I don't think guts are the difference between liberal and conservative positions, I just think it's about simplicity. Conservative principles are pretty simple: get in line, or get your ass kicked. No, you cannot smoke that. Those guys over there are bad, so we kill them. It's much easier to come up with soundbites for that, and when you're talking about college kids you're talking about a demographic who are used to being fed information in 20 second clips. It's hard to explain why a comprehensive health care initiative is important in 20 seconds, but it's very easy to say "We Want To Lower Your Taxes."

Right. So what are the big tough conservatives whining about? It sounds like evil librul professors are helping the conservative cause, by getting the next generation of conservative voters all riled up. Hell, I think it would be wise for conservatives to plant some opperatives on college campuses, to pretend to be rabid liberals and oppress the crap out of conservative students! It would help whip up enthusiasm for The Party.


I don't think guts are the difference between liberal and conservative positions, I just think it's about simplicity. Conservative principles are pretty simple: get in line, or get your ass kicked. No, you cannot smoke that. Those guys over there are bad, so we kill them. It's much easier to come up with soundbites for that, and when you're talking about college kids you're talking about a demographic who are used to being fed information in 20 second clips. It's hard to explain why a comprehensive health care initiative is important in 20 seconds, but it's very easy to say "We Want To Lower Your Taxes."

I'm not really arguing.
The thing is that most folks simply love simplicity.
As the old saw has it: Keep It Simple, Stupid!
If you don't do crisp soundbites, you got no right to a place in public life.

( an aside/example )
It wasn't that Kerry was wrong, it was that he couldn't focus on soundbites.

I'm a Heterosexual Anarchist Christian, and a Theater Geek Who doesn't give a f*** what other people say, but isn't really "proud of it."

I'm not really arguing.
The thing is that most folks simply love simplicity.
As the old saw has it: Keep It Simple, Stupid!
If you don't do crisp soundbites, you got no right to a place in public life.

I pretty much agree, though I think there are some (very few) people who have a gift for communicating without the need for soundbites. Love him or hate him, I think Bill Clinton had that knack...I didn't like a lot of what he had to say, but somehow he could hold people's interest even when he was really rambling on.


( an aside/example )
It wasn't that Kerry was wrong, it was that he couldn't focus on soundbites.
Now THAT I can totally agree with. What really amazed me was that if I read transcripts of Kerry speeches I would often find myself saying, "Hey, that's actually a pretty damn good speech!" But then if I watched it, I would be like, "How the hell did he manage to make this so unbearable?!"

Kerry wasn't just bad at soundbites. He actually could take a soundbite and make it seem long and boring.

I pretty much agree, though I think there are some (very few) people who have a gift for communicating without the need for soundbites. Love him or hate him, I think Bill Clinton had that knack...I didn't like a lot of what he had to say, but somehow he could hold people's interest even when he was really rambling on.


Now THAT I can totally agree with. What really amazed me was that if I read transcripts of Kerry speeches I would often find myself saying, "Hey, that's actually a pretty damn good speech!" But then if I watched it, I would be like, "How the hell did he manage to make this so unbearable?!"

Kerry wasn't just bad at soundbites. He actually could take a soundbite and make it seem long and boring.


Clinton bored me. Cultural thing. Nonverbals don't carry too well across cultural lines.

'tween you and me, Kerry was defending the positions I believe in so badly ( delivery-wise ), that I came close to doubting my own positions. ;)

Proud KH4K inside.
(Why not the long face?)
(He'll flipflop for you too! )
(Maybe he's just deep you know? I got friends like that)

*watches some more Coldstreamers on the telly*
Lots of Geordies walking aboot London!

Well I suppose it has to do with the generations.
Listening to the 30's-40's talk, it's always about ultra-conservative (Nuke dem EYE-RACK-EE'S!"
Listening to the 13's-20's talk, it's always ultra-liberal (I want freedom! The world is so messed up, everyone messed it up. Our environment is screwed! Ugh, we need new politicans!!)

I hate my parents telling me what to do. Luckily my teachers are my friends!

Kyronea tends to be one of most philosophical in his views on this Forum.

I'm glad he is who he is without any regard for what other people think.

So, I ask those of you like me: Why are you so afraid? Why don't you stand up for yourselves? Why are you so afraid of admitting who you are?

The world now knows.

I'm the ideal rational agent. I hold no beliefs whatever, and I can't imagine why anyone else would, either.

Because I see it everywhere I go! People are literally browbeaten. Someone mentions a "liberal" stance on a political issue and they're swarmed by "conservatives" with counter-points and so much else that the "liberal" just slinks away rather than standing up for themselves. As for we, I'm just sorta defining anyone who might be considered as "left" on the political spectrum. Since I personally don't like such definitions, I suppose you'd have to figure out for yourself who exactly I'm talking about.


This is your perspective. You are neither right or wrong. There are people who believe the exact opposite, and they are not wrong either. Its all just how you see the world.

:headbang: Damn people always holding me down! :headbang:

This is your perspective. You are neither right or wrong. There are people who believe the exact opposite, and they are not wrong either. Its all just how you see the world.

:headbang: Damn people always holding me down! :headbang:

Kyronea is stuck in a lurch because he is progressive on most issues except he supports the regressive so-called free-market system.