NationStates Jolt Archive

Well...basically the clue's in the title. How reasonable do you think the comparisons are?

My initial inclination is that in an individual sense, there's some justification in comparing the mentality that led to both; however, that in a broader political context, Haditha won't have the same effect as My Lai did. That's partly because I think popular opinion was already more galvanised against the Iraqi operations than they were against Vietnamese ones, and as such there is simply less of a pivot to effect.

Of course, it's prejudicially early to draw such lines, because there hasn't been the degree of investigation and analysis (although the same amount of ghoulish media rubber-necking) of the later event...but forget about that just now. We have opinions to rush to, dammit!

Ok, assuming that it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the marines did kill those people in cold blood, and that the military tried to cover it up:

Yes, I think it is a fair comparison. Haditha might become a name connected to rampaging out-of-control US troops and a military that doesn't seem to care about the murders of innocent civilians.

The idea that US soldiers might kill people in Iraq in cold blood will no longer be a figment of a conspiracy theorists mind, but a tangible reality - and it might very well be a PR disaster for the military far beyond the Abu Grahib-scandal.

It's probably reasonable in type, but in scale, I think My Lai will still have greater resonance, for a couple of reasons. For starters, many more people died at My Lai, so the scale is more horrific. Secondly, My Lai popped our collective cherry, you might say--Haditha, because it is more recent, will always pale in comparison, I believe.

Ok, assuming that it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the marines did kill those people in cold blood, and that the military tried to cover it up:]
Yes, I should have added that disclaimer myself.

[QUOTE=The Nazz]It's probably reasonable in type, but in scale, I think My Lai will still have greater resonance, for a couple of reasons. For starters, many more people died at My Lai, so the scale is more horrific. Secondly, My Lai popped our collective cherry, you might say--Haditha, because it is more recent, will always pale in comparison, I believe.
I'd agree with that assessment: "in type, but not in scale" is a good way of summing it up.

Is there anyone around who remembers My Lai (I wasn't even born then)? Their perspective - though not necessarily more authoritative than anyone else's - would be interesting.

It's probably reasonable in type, but in scale, I think My Lai will still have greater resonance, for a couple of reasons. For starters, many more people died at My Lai, so the scale is more horrific. Secondly, My Lai popped our collective cherry, you might say--Haditha, because it is more recent, will always pale in comparison, I believe.
I agree, but I kinda feel that Iraq is kind of a miniature Vietnam so the difference in the number of casualties won't matter that much.

That said, My Lay will most likely overshadow Haditha because of the reasons you mention, and also in part due to the acts of bravery some soldiers showed in Vietnam when they risked their own lives to save some of the civilians. There are no indications that any such heroism took place in Haditha - and a dramatic story with heroes is more easily remembered then a story with only villains. :)

I agree, but I kinda feel that Iraq is kind of a miniature Vietnam so the difference in the number of casualties won't matter that much.

That said, My Lay will most likely overshadow Haditha because of the reasons you mention, and also in part due to the acts of bravery some soldiers showed in Vietnam when they risked their own lives to save some of the civilians. There are no indications that any such heroism took place in Haditha - and a dramatic story with heroes is more easily remembered then a story with only villains. :)
Yeah, but don't forget that some of those heroes of My Lai were excoriated afterward by many of their fellow soldiers for having outed the wrongdoing--similar to the way the men who came forward after Abu Ghraib have been harassed.

Yeah, but don't forget that some of those heroes of My Lai were excoriated afterward by many of their fellow soldiers for having outed the wrongdoing--similar to the way the men who came forward after Abu Ghraib have been harassed.
I know, but in the great Public Consciousness such "details" are glossed over. (Together with the fact that the soldiers whom were convicted got off very lightly.)

I have great respect for anyone who is willing to do the right thing despite the possibility of harassment later in life. They should be applauded, not disparaged.

I heard a really good commentary(On NPR) on the comparison between Mi Lai and Haditha and why there isnt one.

I would attempt a quote from Memory but i dont want to butcher it, it does serve to say Iwas calling Haditha Iraq's Mi Lai until I heard this commentary now I dont.

Horrible yes, Mi Lai--not at all. I will see if I can find the link.

No. Aside from the order of magnitude in difference in casualties. My Lai involved some premeditation on the part of those that did the killing, and there was a concerted effort to kill *everyone* which may have even been orchestrated by those above Calley. Haditha was clearly without premeditation or thoughtful organization. The differences in the coverup were radically different. Predisent Carter even had been led to believe My Lai was a smear campaign against the armed forces in general, and Calley specifically, and encourage people to hold "Rallies for Calley." Furthermore there was tremendous internal pressure with in the armed forces to supress evidence and accounts of Mi Lai by those who were aware of and objected to it.

Those are pretty significant differences. The only real similarity, is soldiers cracked and killed more than a few people.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,419701,00.html
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,419516,00.html

Some details in those two articles. As for the parallels, it is obvious that in both cases it was marines killing civilians in gruesome fashion, and then covering it up. You can quit with all the "but nothing is proven" stuff, because if the US Military wasn't completely sure about all this actually having happened, they'd never have let the investigation blow up in their faces like it did. That we know about this is all just part of damage limitation.

Compare yes, but not an exact parallel.

I'm going to wait until an investigation is undertaken and we see how high up it goes and whether there was or was not an intentional cover up by high-ranking officials; that's the real stickler that would make this an atrocity on the scale of My Lai.

Soliders committing atrocities are an unfortunate and horrific reality of warfare, but what really makes something like this a turning point is whether or not the military tried to cover it up. A few soliders committing an atrocity is not within the control of the military but a coverup done with the full knowledge that an atrocity was committed with the intent of keeping it secret is nothing more than a crime of the most severe degre and should be severly punished to the fullest extent of the law.

It won't make as big an impact because the American people have willfully inured themselves to inhuman acts of violence against swarthy types who don't speak unaccented english.

Haditha ain't no My lai...

Haditha ain't no My lai...
You see? Thanks for proving my point in such a timely manner.

It won't make as big an impact because the American people have willfully inured themselves to inhuman acts of violence against swarthy types who don't speak unaccented english.


There ya go again. Whilst the facts are not completely in your jumping the gun. Nice broad generalization eh?

http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=656

You see? Thanks for proving my point in such a timely manner.

There are other reasons, Dobbsey.

There ya go again. Whilst the facts are not completely in your jumping the gun. Nice broad generalization eh?

http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=656

Dude you're so gonna burn for that...I wish this forum had an emoticon for ROFL!!1!!!LOL!!!11!!!


:D

Dude you're so gonna burn for that...I wish this forum had an emoticon for ROFL!!1!!!LOL!!!11!!!


:D
Didn't your sig used to be about being saved or something? And now it's racist. Jeebus would be so proud.

http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=656
All the cutely racist t-shirts in the world can't paper over my sentiment.

All the cutely racist t-shirts in the world can't paper over my sentiment.

Wouldnt have it any other way. I personally like people like you better than those that cover up what they really feel. At least we all know where you stand. Regardless if it is in quicksand or not.;)

Wouldnt have it any other way. I personally like people like you better than those that cover up what they really feel. At least we all know where you stand. Regardless if it is in quicksand or not.;)
Lemme clue you in to something, stretch: You don't have clue one as to where I stand, or what constitutes quicksand.

Lemme clue you in to something, stretch: You don't have clue one as to where I stand, or what constitutes quicksand.

You stand far left. It is very obvious where you are and what you stand for. Doesn't take much to read post after post of your's to figure it out. To clue you in. Quicksand in my term is standing on a ideology that doesn't have a firm footing. That is where you stand in my opinion. Oh I am sure you surround yourself by people like yourself. So you think everything is normal. But in the real world you are on quicksand.

You stand far left. It is very obvious where you are and what you stand for. Doesn't take much to read post after post of your's to figure it out. To clue you in. Quicksand in my term is standing on a ideology that doesn't have a firm footing. That is where you stand in my opinion. Oh I am sure you surround yourself by people like yourself. So you think everything is normal. But in the real world you are on quicksand.
And there we have it; assumption is the mother of all fuckups. No ding, no bling, no returns, no rebates. Is that the best you've got?

It won't make as big an impact because the American people have willfully inured themselves to inhuman acts of violence against swarthy types who don't speak unaccented english.
Of course-Iraq is nothing like Vietnam and you're wallowing in hyperbole and sensationalism to even think of comparing them-frankly, you're being hysterical. Calm down there, Nancy.

Except those against the war-they are totally like the Vietnam protesters and to suggest anything else is the kind of crazy willful blindness that puts rather large women in pink spandex and if you can't see it it's because of the Kool-Aide...


aahhhhh...crap.

Didn't your sig used to be about being saved or something? And now it's racist. Jeebus would be so proud.

How can my sig be racist?

Dude you seriously gotta be looking to be offended if you think it's racist....

And there we have it; assumption is the mother of all fuckups. No ding, no bling, no returns, no rebates. Is that the best you've got?


You have clearly displayed it. Assuming would be if I didn't know anything about who you were. You have displayed it fairly proudly on the forums. Snide remarks here and lefty jabs there. It is obvious....
Did I say you were a bad person? No I clearly did not. I am sure you are just a fine Canadian citizen. I am just pointing out where you stand on the political spectrum for my point of view. As it is my opinion Mr Dobbsworld. I am fairly certain most center right individuals that make up the majority of our fine citizens in the US would think the same.

How can my sig be racist?

Dude you seriously gotta be looking to be offended if you think it's racist....
Spear chucking? You sure you want to use this defense? I don't know that you know how stupid you've decided to portray yourself in order to not own up to your own racist bullshit...

You have clearly displayed it. Assuming would be if I didn't know anything about who you were. You have displayed it fairly proudly on the forums. Snide remarks here and lefty jabs there. It is obvious....
Did I say you were a bad person? No I clearly did not. I am sure you are just a fine Canadian citizen. I am just pointing out where you stand on the political spectrum for my point of view. As it is my opinion Mr Dobbsworld. I am fairly certain most center right individuals that make up the majority of our fine citizens in the US would think the same.
I'm right in there each and every day swimming with the sharks, pally. Not because that's what I enjoy; not because it's what I believe in, either for myself or for any of my fellowmen; I'm in there because I am constrained to do so, and every day is a struggle with my conscience.

So take your suppositions about who I surround myself with and/or what the rationale is behind my public musings and discreetly cram them. I've yet to reveal even a miserly fraction of what I'm all about here on these fora.

Spear chucking? You sure you want to use this defense? I don't know that you know how stupid you've decided to portray yourself in order to not own up to your own racist bullshit...

People are gonna be creative when they want to kill someone, and if St. Peter comes down and DOES wave his magic wand to make all the guns dissapear, you can bet that someone, somewhere will go stone age and start chucking spears, ALA Gladiator style. Not implying anyone race-pretty much EVERY race at one time chucked spears. And LA has a ton of mexicans, black, and white folk in it. Not ALL of them are good people, obviously.

:headbang:

People are gonna be creative when they want to kill someone, and if St. Peter comes down and DOES wave his magic wand to make all the guns dissapear, you can bet that someone, somewhere will go stone age and start chucking spears, ALA Gladiator style. Not implying anyone race-pretty much EVERY race at one time chucked spears. And LA has a ton of mexicans, black, and white folk in it. Not ALL of them are good people, obviously.

:headbang:
And of them all, only one ethnic group was ever called "spearchucker" as a derogatory term. Maybe you didn't mean it to be racist--I'm almost willing to give you the benefit of the doubt--but there's no denying the connotation of the term.

Pillock.

People are gonna be creative when they want to kill someone, and if St. Peter comes down and DOES wave his magic wand to make all the guns dissapear, you can bet that someone, somewhere will go stone age and start chucking spears, ALA Gladiator style. Not implying anyone race-pretty much EVERY race at one time chucked spears. And LA has a ton of mexicans, black, and white folk in it. Not ALL of them are good people, obviously.

:headbang:
So...you're going to go with willfull ignorance (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=spear+chucker). Bold choice. I'm suprised, considering your unrepentant use of things like 'raghead' and 'camel jockey.' I would have thought you'd just hoist that flag. Though maybe you are...