NationStates Jolt Archive

Gay is not normal. Allowing gay-marrige is forcing the public to legally agree it is. Same thing with animal-human marrige. I just KNOW it, in a few years, people will be pushing for it all-over.
Gay is normal occurance throughout the population, no matter how much you don't like it. It naturally occurs within ~10% of the population. How dare you equate the two together.

Incorrect. Normality has nothing to do with it. Democracy was not normal. Economic freedom was not normal. Massive oppression, exploitation and tyranny was normal. The way things are is never an excuse.

You cannot marry an animal, because an animal cannot sign a contract.

You cannot marry a child, because a child cannot sign a contract, and those states who allow it, are immoral and evil. Here's looking at you South.

The way things were was polygamy and real estate transactions.

this reminds me of seinfeld...." not that there's anything wrong with that.."
Nyuck, nyuck!

Well, he's stated (I forget whether it was in this thread or one of the other gay marriage threads going on today) that he likes violence, provided it's against gay people. Given that, maybe he really likes all of these things, provided they involve gay people, and is trying to let us know about his secret desire to be thoroughly spanked by a bunch of gay men while drinking and doing drugs. :p

Hey. i don't just have it against gay people. Anything evil is on my hit list.
Including: Drugs, Alcohol, Pornography, Gays/Lesbians/Bisexuals and Transvestites (even if they're not gay, that's just gross.) World Hunger, Murder, Theft, Adultery, basically, anything immoral is what I am against, not because I am christian (or esle I wouldn't asvocate cloning/genetic engineering) but yeah, those are my beliefs and these are yours. The whole reason we're on here is to discuss our thoughts and beliefs (even though mine are purer.) *puffs out chest in heroic pose*

Incorrect. Normality has nothing to do with it. Democracy was not normal. Economic freedom was not normal. Massive oppression, exploitation and tyranny was normal. The way things are is never an excuse.

You cannot marry an animal, because an animal cannot sign a contract.

You cannot marry a child, because a child cannot sign a contract, and those states who allow it, are immoral and evil. Here's looking at you South.

The way things were was polygamy and real estate transactions.
The animal doesn't consent to being slaughtered, then eaten ether. And THAT never stood in anyone's way in history.

It's not a threat to the world. It is, however, a sign of what has been coming for a long time...the U.S. gone crazy.

Oh yes, crazy; giving homosexuals equal rights and being told they're equal. Such madness!

Hey. i don't just have it against gay people. Anything evil is on my hit list.
Including: Drugs, Alcohol, Pornography, Gays/Lesbians/Bisexuals and Transvestites (even if they're not gay, that's just gross.) World Hunger, Murder, Theft, Adultery, basically, anything immoral is what I am against, not because I am christian (or esle I wouldn't asvocate cloning/genetic engineering) but yeah, those are my beliefs and these are yours. The whole reason we're on here is to discuss our thoughts and beliefs (even though mine are purer.) *puffs out chest in heroic pose*


Hate to break it to you but your beliefs are no purer then anyone elses.

Besides, even if gay people were bigger AIDS risks than anyone else, wouldn't getting them into stable monogamous partnerships be the best way to stop the spread of the disease and not have to fund as many people's health care? :p
I agree... i'm not against gay marriage... at least not on a governmental level.

The animal doesn't consent to being slaughtered, then eaten ether. And THAT never stood in anyone's way in history.

Thank you for clarifying the difference between Animals and Humans.

Hey. i don't just have it against gay people. Anything evil is on my hit list.
Including: Drugs, Alcohol, Pornography, Gays/Lesbians/Bisexuals and Transvestites (even if they're not gay, that's just gross.) World Hunger, Murder, Theft, Adultery, basically, anything immoral is what I am against, not because I am christian (or esle I wouldn't asvocate cloning/genetic engineering) but yeah, those are my beliefs and these are yours. The whole reason we're on here is to discuss our thoughts and beliefs (even though mine are purer.) *puffs out chest in heroic pose*
Arrogant statement of the year? Probably not, but maybe a runner up.

Add spelling to your hit-list.

Oh yes, crazy; giving homosexuals equal rights and being told they're equal. Such madness!
How is it I'm saying they're not equal? They have the same right to marry as anyone else.

Arrogant statement of the year? Probably not, but maybe a runner up.

Add spelling to your hit-list.
Bad spelling is an evil?

How is it I'm saying they're not equal? They have the same right to marry as anyone else.


And Conservatives have the same liberty to believe as I do, and until they demonstrate that liberty, will not be allowed to adopt children.

Arrogant statement of the year? Probably not, but maybe a runner up.

Add spelling to your hit-list.
these conversations move too damn fast to worry about spelling, youre the second person to say that to me today (and I meant the pure part to be as a friendly-joke type thing) If I want to post my hatred towards gays well, thats fine. Any one who wants to disagree is cool with me, as long as they're hetero.

And Conservatives have the same liberty to believe as I do, and until they demonstrate that liberty, will not be allowed to adopt children.
Did I say they couldn't adopt children? NO!

Bad spelling is an evil?
When one speaks of being purer and superior and whatnot, yes.

When one speaks of being purer and superior and whatnot, yes.
I don't think he said being gay was evil. Simply acting on it was.

these conversations move too damn fast to worry about spelling, youre the second person to say that to me today (and I meant the pure part to be as a friendly-joke type thing) If I want to post my hatred towards gays well, thats fine. Any one who wants to disagree is cool with me, as long as they're hetero.
Then I suggest learning how to type properly. If you don't take the time to even review your own writing, then why should we listen to the points you make? Spelling and grammar is representative of the care you give.

And now you're just confirming that you're a bigot.

Did I say they couldn't adopt children? NO!

I apologize, you seem to have misunderstood. Your argument that they have the "same liberty" is a conditional argument. You do realize that to limit "gay marriage" is a limitation upon all Citizens, right? That you lose your right marry another man just as much as a gay man. Now just because you don't care is irrelevent to the justice system.

In summary, all I have to do is turn all of your arguments back around on themselves. I'm going to pass a law that says only brown haired people can marry. Now everyone has the liberty of dying their hair brown, and if they refuse, well that is their choice, and their liberty has not been curtailed.

This is obviously a load of crap.

these conversations move too damn fast to worry about spelling, youre the second person to say that to me today (and I meant the pure part to be as a friendly-joke type thing) If I want to post my hatred towards gays well, thats fine. Any one who wants to disagree is cool with me, as long as they're hetero.

Alright fine, if you want to play that way then the only people who can argue against my pro-marriage comments and wants to disagree with me needs to be gay.

just out of curiosity why are you running scared from something that is going to happen as soon as my generation starts winning offices?

I don't think he said being gay was evil. Simply acting on it was.

Oh sure it is. it is an evil. but I have the right to say that, just as I won't get pissed if you argue against me. Just hope that I don't conquer the world as I intend to. Pray that day never comes if you're gay. Not that God will listen.

I apologize, you seem to have misunderstood. Your argument that they have the "same liberty" is a conditional argument. You do realize that to limit "gay marriage" is a limitation upon all Citizens, right? That you lose your right marry another man just as much as a gay man. Now just because you don't care is irrelevent to the justice system.

In summary, all I have to do is turn all of your arguments back around on themselves. I'm going to pass a law that says only brown haired people can marry. Now everyone has the liberty of dying their hair brown, and if they refuse, well that is their choice, and their liberty has not been curtailed.

This is obviously a load of crap.
Brown-haired is not the same thing as gay.

I don't think he said being gay was evil. Simply acting on it was.
Which is more evil, being gay and loving someone in a fulfilling and productive relationship, or living a sham of a marriage with someone who you don't even really love. I propose that you think hard on that.

Oh sure it is. it is an evil. but I have the right to say that, just as I won't get pissed if you argue against me. Just hope that I don't conquer the world as I intend to. Pray that day never comes if you're gay. Not that God will listen.
Anything you have no control over can't possibly be evil. No matter what your willpower is, you can't change your...er, "tastes".

Oh sure it is. it is an evil. but I have the right to say that, just as I won't get pissed if you argue against me. Just hope that I don't conquer the world as I intend to. Pray that day never comes if you're gay. Not that God will listen.


You sound more childish then I am, and I can almost promise that I am younger then you! And what, pray tell, does some god, who if he does exist CREATED gays in the first place, have to do with american policy if we are supposed to have a seperation of church and state?

It is a sad day indeed when those who are supposed to teach us the differance between right and wrong must learn it from children.

Alright fine, if you want to play that way then the only people who can argue against my pro-marriage comments and wants to disagree with me needs to be gay.

just out of curiosity why are you running scared from something that is going to happen as soon as my generation starts winning offices?

read the post below the post i quoted from.
And, I sure don't care about spelling in an online forum when I could have better things to do. If you don't want to listen that's fine, you can leave if you want; there's a little red "X" at the top right-hand corner of the page. Click it.

Brown-haired is not the same thing as gay.
Truth be told, yeah it is. Both are natural events that people can't control. You can dye your hair blond, but after a few weeks, the roots will still be brown. You can pretend to be heterosexual, but deep down, you're not.

Brown-haired is not the same thing as gay.

Quit focusing on the specifics of analogy, and please respond to the substance, if you would. I give you the same courtesy, and it only seems civil to return it.

Your conditional liberty argument is the tried and true argument for every tyrant that has ever lived. In Russia you could vote...

..for one man.

Conditional liberty is not liberty. I believe Thomas Paine was clear on that.

You sound more childish then I am, and I can almost promise that I am younger then you! And what, pray tell, does some god, who if he does exist CREATED gays in the first place, have to do with american policy if we are supposed to have a seperation of church and state?

There is no God but man, I am sure as hell he can get rid of gays!:sniper:

read the post below the post i quoted from.
And, I sure don't care about spelling in an online forum when I could have better things to do. If you don't want to listen that's fine, you can leave if you want; there's a little red "X" at the top right-hand corner of the page. Click it.
If you have better things to do, do them. If you're going to WRITE on an online forum, I suggest taking the time to use the language properly.

There is no God but man, I am sure as hell he can get rid of gays!:sniper:


Or he can do the right thing, and do what he has been taught since birth, and accept those who are different then he is.


Hello didnt we all learn that one on the playground? Play nice with the other kids.

Or he can do the right thing, and do what he has been taught since birth, and accept those who are different then he is.


Hello didnt we all learn that one on the playground? Play nice with the other kids.
Don't forget 'Share your toys'

There is no God but man, I am sure as hell he can get rid of gays!:sniper:

Have you ever killed a man, Mr. Reclamation?

Don't forget 'Share your toys'


Or in this case your rights and entitlements as humans

I'm reminded of a poster that seems rather true.

"The most important things in life I learned in Kindergarten."

Also...

"The world would be a better place if everyone had milk and cookies and an afternoon nap."

Have you ever killed a man, Mr. Reclamation?

Im sure you've all heard this before, someone bragging about how they would have no regrets about killing someone, but let me asure you, I would harm no hair on the head of an INNOCENT person, but show no mercy towards anyone deserving of death.

did that need to be posted four times ya flaming homophobe?

I appoligize. There is only a limited time on my tollerance for idiots.

I'm gonna make this short and sweet. Call me what you will, but here are my thoughts.

Being gay is not normal. I don't care what anyone says. Its not.

There is only one problem with gay marriage. Its the marriage part. Since the beginning of time (however you think it started, be it some god or the Big Bang) marriage has been the legal union (legal being recognized by society) between a man and a woman. Thats how its been. Do we all agree? Good. Now to change that would be similar to changing the color of the sky. No matter what language you speak, since the beginning of time, the sky has always been recognized as blue by society.

Now. On to Bush's amendment. I fully support it. Simply because of the above mentioned. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Again, it always has been. But here is the catch. I fully support civil unions. I believe that two PEOPLE should be legally recognized NATION WIDE as a civily unionized couple with all the rights of a married couple. What needs to be done, is change the laws that grant rights to those who are married, to those who are civily unionized.

You just can't have them said to married. As much as I hate it, its a double standard. Its like the word ******. Black people can call each other niggers, but as soon as a white person says it, its racism. A girl can poke a guys nipple, but if a guy pokes a girls nipple, its sexual harrasment.

Agree? Dissagree? Feel free to send me your thoughts, questions, comments.

normally I would agree to the comprimise but not on this one. In Brown v. Board of Education our supreme court found that seperation is seldom is ever equal. Wich means by even using a different word we are telling homosexuals that they are subclass citizens. Just like what we did with african americans. And I think we all agree that was wrong. And telling gays that they can not get married because of who they want to get married to is just as wrong.

did that need to be posted four times ya flaming homophobe?

I appoligize. There is only a limited time on my tollerance for idiots.

Of COURSE YA DUMB F**K!
jut kidding. yeah I accidentally clicked it 4 times cause my computer was being gay (heh hee hee)

I'm gonna make this short and sweet. Call me what you will, but here are my thoughts.

Being gay is not normal. I don't care what anyone says. Its not.

There is only one problem with gay marriage. Its the marriage part. Since the beginning of time (however you think it started, be it some god or the Big Bang) marriage has been the legal union (legal being recognized by society) between a man and a woman. Thats how its been. Do we all agree? Good. Now to change that would be similar to changing the color of the sky. No matter what language you speak, since the beginning of time, the sky has always been recognized as blue by society.

Now. On to Bush's amendment. I fully support it. Simply because of the above mentioned. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Again, it always has been. But here is the catch. I fully support civil unions. I believe that two PEOPLE should be legally recognized NATION WIDE as a civily unionized couple with all the rights of a married couple. What needs to be done, is change the laws that grant rights to those who are married, to those who are civily unionized.

You just can't have them said to married. As much as I hate it, its a double standard. Its like the word ******. Black people can call each other niggers, but as soon as a white person says it, its racism. A girl can poke a guys nipple, but if a guy pokes a girls nipple, its sexual harrasment.

Agree? Dissagree? Feel free to send me your thoughts, questions, comments.
Since the dawn of time, there have always been slaves. It doesn't make slavery any less wrong.

just a thought but perhaps you could substitute a different word then 'gay' as an insult. May I suggest 'close minded' or 'biggoted'

normally I would agree to the comprimise but not on this one. In Brown v. Board of Education our supreme court found that seperation is seldom is ever equal. Wich means by even using a different word we are telling homosexuals that they are subclass citizens. Just like what we did with african americans. And I think we all agree that was wrong. And telling gays that they can not get married because of who they want to get married to is just as wrong.
And that's who, not what. You cannot relate this to beastiality.

I totally agree with you. But since so many people are stubborn (including myself sometimes) it just cant happen. America as a society and as a whole, isn't ready for that. If we were ready, this whole debate wouldn't be happening. (thats a really good rebutle you posted)

In response to the subject...N-O no
It's not natural, it's forbidden in The Bible and probably the Koran, Mormon Bible, etc., and there is no way that homosexuals should be allowed to be married.

Thanks. Sorry its the teenage opptimism that maybe my generation will be less frustrating then my parents' generation

I have an EXTREMELY open mind... but ZERO tolerance for evil.
Why is it that whenever people start a thread about Gay rights I'm always the villian, and when people post a thread about world hunger/poverty I'm always the hero?

i don't think any relgion should be included in any argument, be it for or against, simply because not everyone agrees on it

Being gay is not normal. I don't care what anyone says. Its not.
Translation: I'm going to stick my fingers in my ears and scream LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LALALALALALA.

There is only one problem with gay marriage. Its the marriage part. Since the beginning of time (however you think it started, be it some god or the Big Bang) marriage has been the legal union (legal being recognized by society) between a man and a woman. Thats how its been. Do we all agree? Good.
Disagree. Marriage has been all over the damn place. We had marriage to multiple spouces. We had marriage as property. We had marriage as woman to get the kids, but boys for the sex. We had marriage that was the defacto oldest chick in the house.

The idea of marriage as one man/one woman is actually new.

Now to change that would be similar to changing the color of the sky. No matter what language you speak, since the beginning of time, the sky has always been recognized as blue by society.
Such sweeping generalzations. You do know that there's cultures where marriage, the way Westerners potray it, never devloped right?

Now. On to Bush's amendment. I fully support it. Simply because of the above mentioned. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Again, it always has been. But here is the catch. I fully support civil unions. I believe that two PEOPLE should be legally recognized NATION WIDE as a civily unionized couple with all the rights of a married couple. What needs to be done, is change the laws that grant rights to those who are married, to those who are civily unionized.
Seperate but equal... didn't we already have this argument out once before?

You just can't have them said to married. As much as I hate it, its a double standard. Its like the word ******. Black people can call each other niggers, but as soon as a white person says it, its racism. A girl can poke a guys nipple, but if a guy pokes a girls nipple, its sexual harrasment.
I hate the double standard, but I'm going to support it for no reason. Good answer. *sighs*

Agree? Dissagree? Feel free to send me your thoughts, questions, comments.
You did ask for it.

In response to the subject...N-O no
It's not natural, it's forbidden in The Bible and probably the Koran, Mormon Bible, etc., and there is no way that homosexuals should be allowed to be married.

This is not a religious country, dispite what a lot of people seem to think not everyone follows the bible or the koran or any other holy book. I sure as shit dont. And I still live here and have to abide by the rules. Tell me how it is fair that I need to live under rules suited to a religion I do not follow.

As I said in the poll but since this is more discussion

Well let me put it this way.....a few points.

Don't take one part of your Word, and use it to condemn a specific group when the majority of the society is not even abiding by the rest of the Word.

Jesus was a healer, an embodiment of God's Love on Earth, and had beautiful teachings. Do you think he wants his children to be prosecuters, persecuting people? Christians should use the beauty of God's teachings to lead people to Jesus, if they want to lead any one, not condemn people and continue to act like the Rabbis and Romans did in persecuting Jesus. Any one remember the prostitute "Thou shalt not cast the first stone"?

Jesus stood up for minorities and outcasts, not always agreeing with what they did, but understanding that people should not be persecuted.

As far as this issue, an amendment against gay marriage is ridiculous. How does anyone have the nerve to deny anyone a personal choice, and equal rights under the law. The United States is about Freedom and Equal Rights. Equal rights does not mean telling two people that are in love, living and supporting one another that they cannot get married.

Oh but I guess it is perfectly alright for the man who is beating up on his wife or cheating on his wife to be married to her, their just the image of the American dream and whats right about the United States? Or the huge divorce rate? I mean how could you possibly reach from your sphere of personal life, into somebody else's personal life, and tell them they should not have equal rights? Really look deep within and ask the true point and look at what is going on. How do you have the right to condemn somebody else for something their doing that does not even affect you. Trust me, stopping gay marriage is not going to stop gay people.

Gay people will continue to be together, and be in public as well as louder than ever I am sure until they get what they feel is equal rights. They might as well be married, I mean its not like your protecting your children or anything by not giving them the right to marry, their going to be together and hold hands in public any way.

Your just saying they don't deserve equal legal rights as you do, and so this will make them even louder and more in your faces. I am sure the recent GAY MARRIAGE AMENDMENT Headlines on the News and Paper and debate has done more to bring children and people who you don't want influenced to the culture more than anything else has. In fact, I am sure EVERYONE is getting an education about homosexuality now since its all over the news and papers. And imagine, if they just got their equal rights, the news could be covering something more important, like the War in Iraq.

Furthermore...
The Bible condemns fornication (sex before marriage) far more than it does homosexuality, in many more verses. Do you want the State to make laws against fornication, so if you have sex with someone outside of marriage it is illegal? If your going to condemn homosexual people marrying because of the "Bible" or a society based on "Christian values" lets make sure the law enforces all the values, not just one? But I guess the point is moot...if you realized it, youd realize you were going by what society says is alright and is marginally acceptable and legal (Fornication) but homosexuality to Christians is a HUGE issue and damnable more than anything yet thats not what the Bible indicates. Did you tell a lie recently?.....

I totally agree with you. But since so many people are stubborn (including myself sometimes) it just cant happen. America as a society and as a whole, isn't ready for that. If we were ready, this whole debate wouldn't be happening. (thats a really good rebutle you posted)
We can't wait until society is 'ready' for a change. When has it EVER worked that way? History is fraught with revolution, sudden change. People hate change. The American Civil War was fought over State's Rights in order to prevent a change they weren't ready for. The change happened anyways.

I'm gonna make this short and sweet. Call me what you will, but here are my thoughts.

Being gay is not normal. I don't care what anyone says. Its not.

Yes well, despite what you would like to state as fact, homosexuality is a natural aspect of human sexuality, as well as that of many other species.

Though, if by 'normal' you mean 'in the majority', then yes, homosexuality isn't 'normal', but then neither is being blond, left-handed, or a genius.

Yes well, despite what you would like to state as fact, homosexuality is a natural aspect of human sexuality, as well as that of many other species.

Though, if by 'normal' you mean 'in the majority', then yes, homosexuality isn't 'normal', but then neither is being blond, left-handed, or a genius.

It isn't accepted as normal by society.
If it was, as has been stated many times before, we would not be having this conversation.

I have an EXTREMELY open mind... but ZERO tolerance for evil.
Why is it that whenever people start a thread about Gay rights I'm always the villian, and when people post a thread about world hunger/poverty I'm always the hero?

Because homosexuality isn't evil, sweetpea.

I totally agree with you. But since so many people are stubborn (including myself sometimes) it just cant happen. America as a society and as a whole, isn't ready for that. If we were ready, this whole debate wouldn't be happening. (thats a really good rebutle you posted)
So the people who supported Jim Crow laws and inter-racial marriages said.

We're still standing. I think we are FAR more ready for it than you think.

Besides, I'm pretty sure Mass hasn't fallen off the face of the Earth. San Francisco didn't implode, and Canada still seems to be there. So obviously it doesn't cause the end of the world as we know it.

This is not a religious country, dispite what a lot of people seem to think not everyone follows the bible or the koran or any other holy book. I sure as shit dont. And I still live here and have to abide by the rules. Tell me how it is fair that I need to live under rules suited to a religion I do not follow.
Because STRAIT people make the rules (thank God, Allah, Shivah, or whatever god you believe in, or man, if you're like me)
(maniacal laughter)

snip

My point exactly.

It isn't accepted as normal by society.
If it was, as has been stated many times before, we would not be having this conversation.
Society is not correct in this matter, then. Society once said that blacks and women were second-class citizens. Society once believed that the Earth was flat and at the center of the universe. Society once believed that anything other than themselves were inferior and subhuman.

It isn't accepted as normal by society.
If it was, as has been stated many times before, we would not be having this conversation.

At the current moment in history there are individuals and groups that do not accept homosexuality as 'normal'. At the same time, there are those individuals and groups who do accept homosexuality as 'normal'. In the past there have been societies who not only accepting, but encouraged homosexual acts.

Do not make sweeping generalizations about what society does and does not accept as normal.

And like I said, geniuses aren't considered normal either, but you don't see people getting up in arms about them getting married.

ok all this talk about normal got me thinking about a story my friends professor told him.

If one day everyone in the class except for my friend and the professor showed up for class with a carrot in their ear then the carrot in your ear would be normal and those without would be abnormal.

Can we all see how pointless it is to judge ourselves against a normal that does not exist the same for all people?

I mean come on, my version of normal is pagans and satanists and athiests getting together with lesbians and gay men to celebrate christmas.

Society is not correct in this matter, then. Society once said that blacks and women were second-class citizens. Society once believed that the Earth was flat and at the center of the universe. Society once believed that anything other than themselves were inferior and subhuman.
They sure as hell were right! Except for the black people, Flat-earth stuff.

Because STRAIT people make the rules (thank God, Allah, Shivah, or whatever god you believe in, or man, if you're like me)
(maniacal laughter)
How so? I mean gay people may not be a majority but we vote like everyone else.

And like I said, geniuses aren't considered normal either, but you don't see people getting up in arms about them getting married.

That's the most absurd bullshit I've heard thus far in this discussion.

They sure as hell were right! Except for the black people, Flat-earth stuff.
.... I'm not even sure what comment this is even deserving of.

I'm going to go take a shower.

That's the most absurd bullshit I've heard thus far in this discussion.
How so your arguement that just because a person is not statisticaly normal that their relationship should not be recognized

Seems like an analogy to me

They sure as hell were right! Except for the black people, Flat-earth stuff.

So you either believe that women are inferior and the Earth is the center of the Universe, or you just admitted that society was wrong in every one of those cases.

Then what the were they right about?

That's the most absurd bullshit I've heard thus far in this discussion.

Care to explain why?

How so your arguement that just because a person is not statisticaly normal that their relationship should not be recognized

Seems like an analogy to me

Since when are geniuses not 'normal' in society?
In that respect, nobody could be normal because there is nothing not prejudiced against. With that means that there is no normal in society meaning that there are no rules or laws, meaning that there is no government.

They sure as hell were right! Except for the black people, Flat-earth stuff.


So what now? Women are inferrior to you? I should go and slap and claw you to death but I shall refrain. Bad idea to insult a feminist and a gay rights advocite in the same phrase...



moron

Since when are geniuses not 'normal' in society?
In that respect, nobody could be normal because there is nothing not prejudiced against. With that means that there is no normal in society meaning that there are no rules or laws, meaning that there is no government.
They are statistical outliers by deffinition


So you admit that the arguement that disalowing gays marrige because they are not statistical "normal" is bs

Good

Since when are geniuses not 'normal' in society?
Since when are homosexuals not normal? They've been around for a very long time and in far more numbers than geniuses.

In that respect, nobody could be normal because there is nothing not prejudiced against. With that means that there is no normal in society meaning that there are no rules or laws, meaning that there is no government.
Not at all, it just means that when we make the laws, we cannot just sweepingly say "I like this group but not that group so this group is normal and able to do whatever, but that group cannot because it isn't normal."

Since when are geniuses not 'normal' in society?
In that respect, nobody could be normal because there is nothing not prejudiced against. With that means that there is no normal in society meaning that there are no rules or laws, meaning that there is no government.

Since when are geniuses considered 'normal' in society? If they were considered 'normal' people wouldn't be all 'Holy crap! That person's a genius! I could never have thought up something like that.' The whole point of a genius is that they are of above normal intelligence. Above normal is not normal.

And you were on the right track, there really is no 'normal' in society. It's all subjective. But then you somehow degraded into there being no rules or government, and that just doesn't make sense. How the hell is normality related to laws?

Progress!

Since when are geniuses considered 'normal' in society? If they were considered 'normal' people wouldn't be all 'Holy crap! That person's a genius! I could never have thought up something like that.' The whole point of a genius is that they are of above normal intelligence. Above normal is not normal.

And you were on the right track, there really is no 'normal' in society. It's all subjective. But then you somehow degraded into there being no rules or government, and that just doesn't make sense. How the hell is normality related to laws?

Because if there was no norm then everybody would follow his/her own rules and beliefs brining total anarchy to the world.
There is a norm in society.

Because if there was no norm then everybody would follow his/her own rules and beliefs brining total anarchy to the world.
There is a norm in society.
No, it means everyone has to agree on the rules. That's why we are not a pure democracy, it keeps the 51% from voting to kill the 49% because they are not "normal".

Because if there was no norm then everybody would follow his/her own rules and beliefs brining total anarchy to the world.
There is a norm in society.
Fine there is a "Normal" (though normal is the wrong word but I would not expect you to understand the correct statistical meaning)

But for some reason we do not make laws baning the practices of other non "Normal" groups

No, it means everyone has to agree on the rules. That's why we are not a pure democracy, it keeps the 51% from voting to kill the 49% because they are not "normal".

Magic words; everyone has to agree.
Does everyone agree on the issue of homosexuality?
No, I think the political polls were fairly evident of that.

Because if there was no norm then everybody would follow his/her own rules and beliefs brining total anarchy to the world.
There is a norm in society.

Your path of logic is strange and twisted in ways that I cannot follow.

People follow rules one) because structure benefits them and society, and two) because they are enforced. The rules were created so different people could interact and live together in peace. People. Different opinions. Peace. That's what rules are for.

Magic words; everyone has to agree.
Does everyone agree on the issue of homosexuality?
No, I think the political polls were fairly evident of that.


If everyone agreed the world would be a very dull place indeed. There would be no debate teams or internet forums for political debates no matter how angery people may get at the idiots on said forums.

To Quote my government teacher: "This contry is alot of different people doing different things in different ways. Accept it or leave."

Chaos over order. :)

Chaos over order. :)

AMEN. That comming from a pagan, you made an accomplishment, be proud.

Magic words; everyone has to agree.
Does everyone agree on the issue of homosexuality?
No, I think the political polls were fairly evident of that.
Are you reading the same thing as I am? because the post you quoted points out exactly why agreement alone does not make law

To Quote my government teacher: "This contry is alot of different people doing different things in different ways. Accept it or leave."

I like your teacher's satire.

I like your teacher's satire.
yeah he's a charactor alright.

Magic words; everyone has to agree.
Does everyone agree on the issue of homosexuality?
No, I think the political polls were fairly evident of that.
You fail to understand. The norm is not used to set the rules, so saying something is outside the norm does not make it illegal.

Besides, we've already agreed. We agreed that the Constitution is the basis for the rules and THAT document says everyone should be treated equally before the law.

Dont forget we decided that seperate is not equal

"The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation"
-Pierre Elliot Trudeau

"If this country is so free we should be able to marry a rock if we want to."
-Ice-T

"The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation"
-Pierre Elliot Trudeau
Requoted for truth.

"The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation"
-Pierre Elliot Trudeau

Exactly. Separation of church and state my friends.

You fail to understand. The norm is not used to set the rules, so saying something is outside the norm does not make it illegal.

Besides, we've already agreed. We agreed that the Constitution is the basis for the rules and THAT document says everyone should be treated equally before the law.

Why the hell do you people keep bringing equality in law into the picture?
I don't believe anyone ever asked for gay people to get extra prison time.
Law and acceptance into society has nothing to do with another.

"If this country is so free we should be able to marry a rock if we want to."
-Ice-T

Man... pensions would be pretty hard-hit if they had to pay out to widowed rocks in perpetuity.

Other than that, let's do it!

Let gays get married. Fuck conservatives. Fuck Bush, bringing church into state

Why the hell do you people keep bringing equality in law into the picture?
I don't believe anyone ever asked for gay people to get extra prison time.
Law and acceptance into society has nothing to do with another.


Who said a word about prison time? A married couple has certain rights and privilaged that are denied to anyone who is unmarried. And that includes civil unions. So by denying gays the right to get married we are in essance not giving them equal treatment.

Why the hell do you people keep bringing equality in law into the picture?
I don't believe anyone ever asked for gay people to get extra prison time.
Law and acceptance into society has nothing to do with another.
Um, perhaps you didn't notice, but people are trying to make it legal (via the FMA) to prevent homosexuals from wedding and then adopting. Equality is what it's all about.

Let gays get married. Fuck conservatives. Fuck Bush, bringing church into state


I don't think Bush or the consertive men would like it if a bunch of gay men fucked them. Then again you never know with some people...

Why the hell do you people keep bringing equality in law into the picture?
I don't believe anyone ever asked for gay people to get extra prison time.
Law and acceptance into society has nothing to do with another.

Oh, bullshit. One will reflect the other, particularly in a democracy.

Law and acceptance into society has nothing to do with another.

Yes they do. Homosexuality is illegal in many parts of this world, thats because they are not accepted into society and thus the law finds them as deviants.

Why the hell do you people keep bringing equality in law into the picture?
I don't believe anyone ever asked for gay people to get extra prison time.
Law and acceptance into society has nothing to do with another.
Because marriage is a legal status with certain rights and benifits that is currently being denied to homosexual couples.

And, as pointed out, that damn amendment would make it illegal totally.

Um, perhaps you didn't notice, but people are trying to make it legal (via the FMA) to prevent homosexuals from wedding and then adopting. Equality is what it's all about.

I left the issue of homosexual marriage a long time ago.
I say let them marry.
I'm focussing on accepting homosexuality as heterosexuality in the society.

I left the issue of homosexual marriage a long time ago.
I say let them marry.
I'm focussing on accepting homosexuality as heterosexuality is in society.

You can't accept homosexuality as heterosexuality in society, because it's not heterosexuality, it's homosexuality. I assume you mean accepting it as just as valid as heterosexuality. Which it is, there just happens to be a lot of stubborn people who refuse to understand this.

I left the issue of homosexual marriage a long time ago.
I say let them marry.
I'm focussing on accepting homosexuality as heterosexuality in the society.
Well, you're speaking in a thread called 'Let Gays get married!' You can choose to leave or ignore the issue if you wish, but I won't.

Well, you're speaking in a thread called 'Let Gays get married!' You can choose to leave or ignore the issue if you wish, but I won't.

Well my country already decided on this issue and it declared homosexual marriages legal.
But then some people started talking about gay pride parades and that how they would only stop if we accepted homosexuality into society entirely.

I'm focussing on accepting homosexuality as heterosexuality in the society.
Then the analogy caries even more weight. Blacks were not accepted in schools with whites till it was legally allowed. Slowly it became accepted and now no one blinks at it.

I read the first half of the thread and then posted, so this may or may not be past the point...but oh well!

I was going to post a response regarding that whole, "homosexuality isn't normal/natural" thing, but then I stopped. What does the normalcy of being gay have to do with whether gay people should be able to marry or not? It doesn't matter whether or not it is "normal," or how often it happens. The fact remains that there are a lot of people who love people of their same sex, and they should recieve the same rights as those who are straight.

I wholeheartedly agree.

I mean, if you ban it, one side is getting what they want, and the other isn't. If you don't, then both can get what they want, really. Gays can get married, and straights don't have to, and won't have a same sex marriage. It's pushing ideas on people if you ban it. Which, by the way, is not a good thing to do to a people.

Just to let you all know... I, myself, am gay.

Homosexuality is and has been accepted

Homosexual marriage is not, it's because they're gay, it's because they will exploit the social system. Not because homosexual marriage isn't moral, that has never been the issue. Listen if a church lets them get married fine. Anyone can get married, they just can't get social status is all. For more information read up on the Palamony agreement, if it's still around.

Brilliant argument. Have any evidence for that?

Try the whole Bibble.

And hey, if you don't believe in the Bible, you have no buisness believing in Hell or Heaven for that matter

Alright, I have been really mature all night time to be childish. Forgive the following rant if it is offencive.

*jumps up and down and thows a fit* FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY! What is is going to take for close minded BIGOTS to see that gay people are no less human than they are?! Goddess above!

“I am a Jew/ Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs/ dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with/ the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject/ to the same diseases, heal’d by the same means/ warm’d and cool’d by the same winter and summer/ as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?/ If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you/ poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?”
-Shylock, Merchant of Venice by William Shakepeare

Doesn't a gay have eyes? Doesnt he or she have hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? They eat the same food we do, suffer the same pains by the same means. Get the same illnesses we do, go through the same seasons. They laugh when you tickle them, die when you poison them ( I do not suggest you test that one) So should they not be allowed to marry, by straight example?


Sorry I had to....

I wholeheartedly agree.

I mean, if you ban it, one side is getting what they want, and the other isn't. If you don't, then both can get what they want, really. Gays can get married, and straights don't have to, and won't have a same sex marriage. It's pushing ideas on people if you ban it. Which, by the way, is not a good thing to do to a people.

Just to let you all know... I, myself, am gay.

Aren't you trying to press ideals onto people as well? That's fascism, but hey let the house and senate decide. That's the American way, if you don't like it, wait another 4-8 years.

Ok, a quick disclaimer, no way am I reading 38 pages to make sure no one else has already said what I am about to. So if I'm being repititious, I apologize. Also, theres a lot i wanna say. Sorry for the verbaciousness (and misspellings, lol).

Now, first, amen to the OP! Back in the day blacks and whites couldnt marry. Men not being allowed to men or women not being allowed to women seems to be as completely unjust as legally forbidding marriage between different ethnicities.

To those that disagree, because gays aren't normal, your argument doesnt make much sense, or hold much water. I think in the first couple of pages Fass said something about the "lifestyle" of gays being the same. Homosexuals still eat, breathe, etc. Unfortunately, people thinking others are somehow different is something we've been dealing with since the 15th century. Shakespeare addressed the issue more thoroughly and poetically then i could hope to. Look 2 posts above to see the quote, or search Merchant of Venice, Act 3, Scene 1 Shylock. That should lead you to it


To those that use bible and Christianity to oppose equality in marriage for gays and lesbians, clearly, you are reading the bible selectively, and missed the most important parts, like "Judge not lest ye be judged" "How is it you see the splinter in your neighbors eye and not the log in your own" "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets" All of these seem to me to be perfectly good, biblical reason for not giving a damn if two men or two women have their union recognized by the state. Although, I admit, they are not the best arguements I could make. But I dont feel like hunting thru the Bible right now, just to prove wrong people who likely will not be persuaded anyways.

As Sam Waterson said at the end of one episode of Law and Order, Let the gays marry; why shouldnt they be as miserable as the rest of us?

fuck that pardon my french but if you believe in that your lucky im not in charge cause i would line up every fag along a wall and put a bullet in each of thier heads. its wrong,nasty and goes against my religeon. and dont even start complaining about my choice i hate fags and if one gets near me or looks at me in a gay way i will beat him into a coma........literally.

Wow, this is my longest thread to date, and this is only my third post! :D

:headbang:

@Bul-Katho

No, not at all. It is not pushing them to accept anything or do anything. It is just legalizing gay marriage, and that does not limit anyone in any way.

Alright, I have been really mature all night time to be childish. Forgive the following rant if it is offencive.

*jumps up and down and thows a fit* FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY! What is is going to take for close minded BIGOTS to see that gay people are no less human than they are?! Goddess above!

“I am a Jew/ Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs/ dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with/ the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject/ to the same diseases, heal’d by the same means/ warm’d and cool’d by the same winter and summer/ as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?/ If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you/ poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?”
-Shylock, Merchant of Venice by William Shakepeare

Doesn't a gay have eyes? Doesnt he or she have hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? They eat the same food we do, suffer the same pains by the same means. Get the same illnesses we do, go through the same seasons. They laugh when you tickle them, die when you poison them ( I do not suggest you test that one) So should they not be allowed to marry, by straight example?


Sorry I had to....

Doesn't a Murderer have eyes? Doesn't he or she have hands, organs, dimensions, sences, affections, passions? They eat the same food as we do, suffer the same pains by the same means. get the same illnesses we do, go through the same seasons. They laugh when you tickle them, die when you poison them. So should they not be allowed to murder, by straight example?

DOESN'T SOUND SO GOOD NOW, DOES IT?!?!?!

By the looks of the beginning of the thread, Fass, you really don't have any right to call someone's opinion against homosexuality "stupid" as the same can go for your strong support for it.

I don't support homosexual marriage, or homosexuality/bisexuality. I'm an Arch-Conservative, but I don't go and antagonize myself by criticizing people's opinions and beliefs for supporting homosexual marriage.

As much of a right you have to be a homosexual, I have the same value of right to be homophobic.

Doesn't a Murderer have eyes? Doesn't he or she have hands, organs, dimensions, sences, affections, passions? They eat the same food as we do, suffer the same pains by the same means. get the same illnesses we do, go through the same seasons. They laugh when you tickle them, die when you poison them. So should they not be allowed to murder, by straight example?

DOESN'T SOUND SO GOOD NOW, DOES IT?!?!?!

Yes and murderers harm people and thats why they're thrown into prison. Duh...

In many countries, murder is illegal, and its illegal for a reason, it harms people. In some countries homosexuality is NOT illegal, and theres a reason for that, it harms no one.

fuck that pardon my french but if you believe in that your lucky im not in charge cause i would line up every fag along a wall and put a bullet in each of thier heads. its wrong,nasty and goes against my religeon. and dont even start complaining about my choice i hate fags and if one gets near me or looks at me in a gay way i will beat him into a coma........literally.


Sweetie.... Listen to yourself. It goes against your religion?????? (im assuming thats what you mean by religeon....sounds like a bird related to pidgeons.) Using slurs and hating others and threatening to beat people into a coma for getting near you or "looking at you in a gay way" are all okay in your religion. What the heck kind of religion do you belong to, anyway? Oh, and threatening to hurt people went out of fashion with the whole Civil Rights Movement and all, darling. Get a freaking clue.

fuck that pardon my french but if you believe in that your lucky im not in charge cause i would line up every fag along a wall and put a bullet in each of thier heads. its wrong,nasty and goes against my religeon. and dont even start complaining about my choice i hate fags and if one gets near me or looks at me in a gay way i will beat him into a coma........literally.
What religion is that, then?

I know a bit about the old and new testament. It says that the second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. You seem to be breaking the second greatest commandment. Homosexuality isn't even in the top ten, buddy.

Just wanted to point that out...

Yes and murderers harm people and thats why they're thrown into prison. Duh...


God holds both to the same standard. the govornment should too.

Doesn't a Murderer have eyes? Doesn't he or she have hands, organs, dimensions, sences, affections, passions? They eat the same food as we do, suffer the same pains by the same means. get the same illnesses we do, go through the same seasons. They laugh when you tickle them, die when you poison them. So should they not be allowed to murder, by straight example?

DOESN'T SOUND SO GOOD NOW, DOES IT?!?!?!


Did you seriously just equate marriage between gays to murder? No, that doesnt sound good. You're gonna have to come up with a better rebuttle, kiddo.

Doesn't a Murderer have eyes? Doesn't he or she have hands, organs, dimensions, sences, affections, passions? They eat the same food as we do, suffer the same pains by the same means. get the same illnesses we do, go through the same seasons. They laugh when you tickle them, die when you poison them. So should they not be allowed to murder, by straight example?

DOESN'T SOUND SO GOOD NOW, DOES IT?!?!?!

See you did quite well right up until the end. Not every straight person commits murder. So real nice, tripped at the finish and invalidated your argument. Thank you try again.

fuck that pardon my french but if you believe in that your lucky im not in charge cause i would line up every fag along a wall and put a bullet in each of thier heads. its wrong,nasty and goes against my religeon. and dont even start complaining about my choice i hate fags and if one gets near me or looks at me in a gay way i will beat him into a coma........literally.
I sent three guys like you to the hospital last time you tried to beat me into coma

God holds both to the same standard. the govornment should too.

When did God tell you what standard He/She holds people to? Or, are you thinking you are God, or are so presumptive to think you know how God feels and thinks. See, because I was led to believe that God held people to the standard of loving others and treating them with respect.

Im so sick of people using God to support hatred and bigotry.

Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

When your without sin, you cast stones at gays. Until then, worry about your own soul, and not others.

I sent three guys like you to the hospital last time you tried to beat me into coma

Good for you

God holds both to the same standard. the govornment should too.
Seperation of Church and State.

God holds both to the same standard. the govornment should too.
Sounds like a theocracy to me...

There is a reason for the seperation of church and state. In fact, the bible even respects that.

Good for you
Yeah I did not avoid the hospital myself ... but a few lung staples took care of it

God holds both to the same standard. the govornment should too.

Absolutely no way. Don't impose your personal religious beliefs and thought onto everyone in the country. Not everyone believes in whicher God you believe in.

fuck that pardon my french but if you believe in that your lucky im not in charge cause i would line up every fag along a wall and put a bullet in each of thier heads. its wrong,nasty and goes against my religeon. and dont even start complaining about my choice i hate fags and if one gets near me or looks at me in a gay way i will beat him into a coma........literally.
Your spelling and grammar goes against my religion. Be glad I don't share your thoughts.

When did God tell you what standard He/She holds people to? Or, are you thinking you are God, or are so presumptive to think you know how God feels and thinks. See, because I was led to believe that God held people to the standard of loving others and treating them with respect.

Im so sick of people using God to support hatred and bigotry.

Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

When your without sin, you cast stones at gays. Until then, worry about your own soul, and not others.


Just to add to this one last I checked wrath and pride were 2 of the 7 deadly sins. Which means you are not going to heaven buckko. Ya broke the 10 commandments and committed 2 of the 7 deadly sins. In short by your religion your soul is fucked.

As much of a right you have to be a homosexual, I have the same value of right to be homophobic.

Why should I acknowledge your rights as a bigot if you don't acknowledge mine as a (hypotheticall) homosexual?

Also, to rip off either the West Wing or whoever actually wrote this:

Dear trolls,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

Why should I acknowledge your rights as a bigot if you don't acknowledge mine as a (hypotheticall) homosexual?
A homophobe's right to hate is quite different from a gay's right to marry.

When did God tell you what standard He/She holds people to? Or, are you thinking you are God, or are so presumptive to think you know how God feels and thinks. See, because I was led to believe that God held people to the standard of loving others and treating them with respect.

Im so sick of people using God to support hatred and bigotry.

Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

When your without sin, you cast stones at gays. Until then, worry about your own soul, and not others.


and i'm sick of people like you hidding behind God's love. Yes, HE is a God of Love, but also justice. HE holds ALL PEOPLE to the standard he set in the Bible, and if there is one thing HE hates, it's homosexuals.
Your argument is also invalide where it brings God into it because you question HIS Person. Only a stupid feminist would read the Bible and say, "hey, i think God is a She."

As much of a right you have to be a homosexual, I have the same value of right to be homophobic.
Oh, so none? I mean, after all, I have just as much right to be homosexual as I do to being black. It's not exactly something I can change, seeing as I was born this way. You, on the other hand, were not BORN homophobic. It's impossible because hatred and fear are learned emotions. Compassion and unconditional love, on the other hand, are not.

and i'm sick of people like you hidding behind God's love. Yes, HE is a God of Love, but also justice. HE holds ALL PEOPLE to the standard he set in the Bible, and if there is one thing HE hates, it's homosexuals.
Your argument is also invalide where it brings God into it because you question HIS Person. Only a stupid feminist would read the Bible and say, "hey, i think God is a She."
God does not hate. Hatred is a fallibility. An imperfection. God is infallible and perfect. Ergo, God does not hate. After all, why would God create something that he hates?

i would line up every fag along a wall and put a bullet in each of thier heads.
Yeah? Discuss it on someone else's site. We don't care for specific threats in such glorious detail on this one.

DEAT.

Absolutely no way. Don't impose your personal religious beliefs and thought onto everyone in the country. Not everyone believes in whicher God you believe in.

I can do no more then. I am sorry for you

fuck that pardon my french but if you believe in that your lucky im not in charge cause i would line up every fag along a wall and put a bullet in each of thier heads. its wrong,nasty and goes against my religeon. and dont even start complaining about my choice i hate fags and if one gets near me or looks at me in a gay way i will beat him into a coma........literally.

I am curious what religion you subscribe to, since I've never before heard of one that considers homosexually immoral and wanton murder and assault moral.

God does not hate. Hatred is a fallibility. An imperfection. God is infallible and perfect. Ergo, God does not hate. After all, why would God create something that he hates?
Based on what? I understand your arguement that hatred is somehow a flaw. How? it was an emotion created by god one would figure the perfect would not be able to create the imperfect unless he was trying to fail at creating the best product possible

Look people, it doesn't matter what God wants. God should not be in this equation. God should be kept in our private lives, and should not be mentioned in our government.

So, stop saying what he wants! Please.

I can do no more then. I am sorry for you
And here we are sorry for you

The difference is, of course, that murder is immoral by any definition of morality, while homosexuality is immoral only when one looks at it from a very specific, faith-based moral system. It isn't even agreed on within Christianity that homosexuality is bad - it's fairly easy to see Soddom & Gomorrah as a violation of the host-guest relationship rather than a city "plagued" by homosexuality. This is actually a much more plausible interpretation, as maintaining a proper host-guest relationship is an incredibly important topic in most ancient literature.

A secular definition of morality is the only definition that can be used in a nation that holds freedom of religion to be a fundamental right of mankind. This is because using a sacred, faith-based definition quite obviously forces the laws of a single religion upon all citizens of that country. That is without a doubt unconstitutional.

To hold that homosexuality is "unnatural" is foolish, as many have pointed out, as we see homosexuality throughout human and natural history. Additionally, the natural or unnatural nature of something should not be put forward as evidence in a moralistic discussion, as whether something is natural or unnatural is of absolutely no import with regards to moral status. Nature is amoral - neither moral nor immoral.

Finally, the comparisons of homosexuality to beastiality and pedophilia need to stop. Homosexuality is a relationship between two consenting, adult humans. Beastiality and pedophilia can never be consentual relationships - we can never know if that animal really wants it, and it is agreed by almost every psychologist that children lack the mental and emotional development to consent. The lack of the ability to give consent renders such relationships immoral without a doubt, drastically different from homosexuality.

and i'm sick of people like you hidding behind God's love. Yes, HE is a God of Love, but also justice. HE holds ALL PEOPLE to the standard he set in the Bible, and if there is one thing HE hates, it's homosexuals.
Your argument is also invalide where it brings God into it because you question HIS Person. Only a stupid feminist would read the Bible and say, "hey, i think God is a She."

Please, you do NOT speak for God, and you cannot make judgements for him, only he has the power to do that, not you.

God does not hate. Hatred is a fallibility. An imperfection. God is infallible and perfect. Ergo, God does not hate. After all, why would God create something that he hates?

Where have you been? OF COURSE GOD HATES. and who says "Hatred is fallibility, and imperfection."? your argument does not make sence because you base your whole thesis on a fallible "fact".

He did not "create something that He hates", they BECOME what He hates.
Read Mind of the Maker by Dorothy Sayers

Based on what? I understand your arguement that hatred is somehow a flaw. How? it was an emotion created by god one would figure the perfect would not be able to create the imperfect unless he was trying to fail at creating the best product possible
God was by no means trying to create the best product possible. He created man to LOVE and OBEY him, and that's it. They are imperfect, and so must choose him. Being perfect -the best- would defeat that purpose.

Hatred is a sin, but righteous anger is not.

I can do no more then. I am sorry for you

No, I'm actually sorry for you. I'm sorry that you have to be so narrow-minded, and I'm sorry you won't get anywhere with that mindset.

And here we are sorry for you

haha, nice.

but what are you sorry about? that i'm straight?

Based on what? I understand your arguement that hatred is somehow a flaw. How? it was an emotion created by god one would figure the perfect would not be able to create the imperfect unless he was trying to fail at creating the best product possible
Hatred was actually not an original human emotion. I believe it was created after Adam and Eve ate from the fruit of wisdom and learned of its existance. In the human's perfect form, there was no hatred. Only love.

Alright can we please kick god out of this one? We are not arguing what he finds moral and immoral. And some of us here do not believe in god because we are not christian. So if you please? A little respect for religions older then yours? respect your elders and all that.

No, I'm actually sorry for you. I'm sorry that you have to be so narrow-minded, and I'm sorry you won't get anywhere with that mindset.


Oh, you mean that i have the mindset of a Godly Christian? so yeah, if that's what you mean, yes. i am a Narrow-minded person. that's actually almost word for word what the Bible says secular people would call us Christians. Believe me, you will change your opinions on Judment Day. (which, with the way things are going, is very, very soon.)

haha, nice.

but what are you sorry about? that i'm straight?

No we are not sorry that you are straight. Though it is a loss to women that you are. We are sorry that you are so close minded and bigoted that you can not even think about accepting something not written down in your out dated little book on god known as the bible.

Would it anger you to know that your religion is based on Jeudasim? And there fore has almost identical moral codes? Go ask a Jew if homosexuality is wrong.

and i'm sick of people like you hidding behind God's love. Yes, HE is a God of Love, but also justice. HE holds ALL PEOPLE to the standard he set in the Bible, and if there is one thing HE hates, it's homosexuals.


Give me ONE example of Jesus hating homosexuals. ONE. Cite any point in the gospels where Jesus says, "Boy, those men holding hands sure are yucky!"

What? You can't?

That might be because Jesus is never recorded as saying anything resembling that. It must be a powerful lot of hatred he felt, to never once complain about gay people or criticize them in any of his teachings. I know when I really hate something, I make a point of never saying so, and instead talking about a whole bunch of other things. Clearly, Jesus was just expecting that we'd read between the lines of that whole "don't throw stones at prostitutes unless you're perfect" thing to get "but you can throw stones at gay people all you like, because they're more icky-poo than hookers any day."

:rolleyes:

Where have you been? OF COURSE GOD HATES. and who says "Hatred is fallibility, and imperfection."? your argument does not make sence because you base your whole thesis on a fallible "fact".

He did not "create something that He hates", they BECOME what He hates.
Read Mind of the Maker by Dorothy Sayers
No, I was BORN a homosexual. I did not CHOOSE to become one. It was a choice to date that one girl, and instinct that I was not attracted to her. And why would I read Mind of the Maker? It isn't the bible. It's a work of a human.

And my God does not hate. He is a loving and compassionate God. His ways are not our ways and his works are above the realm of our understanding.

Alright can we please kick god out of this one? We are not arguing what he finds moral and immoral. And some of us here do not believe in god because we are not christian. So if you please? A little respect for religions older then yours? respect your elders and all that.

Yeah, that's what everyone wants to do to justify their reasons for being gay

haha, nice.

but what are you sorry about? that i'm straight?
No sorry that religion rules your life ... thank god that i got away from all that bs

dont use the bible on me if it did not exist i would still think the same way the bible just made me a good enough person not to kill faggots
You may not hate homosexuals, but do you love them as your fellow humans?as my fellow humans yes

and i never hate i dislike there ways
Notice how this guy goes from implying that he would kill gay people if he could, to saying that he loves them as his fellow human beings but simply dislikes them for who they are.

Also notice that he calls them "faggots", surely with the full knowledge that it's a derogatory term, even though he claims to love them as his fellow human being.

There are too many people like this, always trying to cover their ass when their hatred starts showing, so they look like good people. A transparent façade indeed.

Yeah, that's what everyone wants to do to justify their reasons for being gay

Don't make assumptions. You don't know anyone here.

Oh, you mean that i have the mindset of a Godly Christian? so yeah, if that's what you mean, yes. i am a Narrow-minded person. that's actually almost word for word what the Bible says secular people would call us Christians. Believe me, you will change your opinions on Judment Day. (which, with the way things are going, is very, very soon.)

No, he/she meant "narrow-minded" and said "narrow-minded." Please do not insult the many intelligent, reasonable Christians in the world by claiming that narrow-mindedness is an essential part of Christianity, because it isn't.

No, I was BORN a homosexual. I did not CHOOSE to become one. It was a choice to date that one girl, and instinct that I was not attracted to her. And why would I read Mind of the Maker? It isn't the bible. It's a work of a human.

And my God does not hate. He is a loving and compassionate God. His ways are not our ways and his works are above the realm of our understanding.
dude, you can still change. ask God to come into your life.

Yeah, that's what everyone wants to do to justify their reasons for being gay

No asshole, everyone drags the bible into it, conviently forgetting that not everyone has ever read the damn thing, to justify why being gay is wrong.

And I am not asking you to toss out god because I am gay, because I am not. I am a Pagan, meaning I worship a goddess and think the bible is a load of crap, and personally it sickens me to see jackoffs like you walk around and justify your own bigotry just because you interpret your rag of a holy book that way.

No, he/she meant "narrow-minded" and said "narrow-minded." Please do not insult the many intelligent, reasonable Christians in the world by claiming that narrow-mindedness is an essential part of Christianity, because it isn't.

when i said "narrow minded", i meant that is what the WORLD calls us. as in we stick to our 1500's style of morality

dude, you can still change. ask God to come into your life.

And now he goes around preaching... :headbang:

when i said "narrow minded", i meant that is what the WORLD calls us. as in we stick to our 1500's style of morality

Thats the problem, we're no longer in the 1500s anymore. Get with reality.

Yeah, that's what everyone wants to do to justify their reasons for being gay

...people who want Christian beliefs not to dictate law are all trying to justify being gay?

This just in! The founding fathers were all gay! Our country is founded upon principles of gayness!

I guess we're the gay country after all... :)

No sorry that religion rules your life ... thank god that i got away from all that bs
I understand that you don't believe in our/my religion. But please respect our/my religion by not calling it BS. Feel free to point out any fallacies within it. Feel free to use scripture as ammunition. But please don't insult the whole religion and the billions of people who believe in it.

But regardless, I will only use religion when others use it to attack the way I am.

I appoligize for any other respectful christians who read my last post. It was directed only at Dancing Irish and I am sorry for any offence my temper tantrum caused to anyone else.

No asshole, everyone drags the bible into it, conviently forgetting that not everyone has ever read the damn thing, to justify why being gay is wrong.

And I am not asking you to toss out god because I am gay, because I am not. I am a Pagan, meaning I worship a goddess and think the bible is a load of crap, and personally it sickens me to see jackoffs like you walk around and justify your own bigotry just because you interpret your rag of a holy book that way.

hey dude, no personal insults. this is a discussion.

without God, we have no morality. without morality, we have no laws. without laws, we have hell on earth.

Yeah, that's what everyone wants to do to justify their reasons for being gay
And it's such a good reason too!

I do not deny that homosexuality is a sin, but I think that religion should be kept out of government. And so did the founding fathers of the US. Banning gay marriage will not save anyone; we will continue to love our partners. Yeah, I want to marry my boyfriend someday, and it ticks me off that I can't -it doesn't tick me off that some people think I shouldn't be able to, though.

hey dude, no personal insults. this is a discussion.

without God, we have no morality. without morality, we have no laws. without laws, we have hell on earth.


Oh so it is just fine when you go around insulting everything I hold dear, and serveral members of my friends and family yet I can't fight back. Yeah that makes a load of sense.

I appoligize for any other respectful christians who read my last post. It was directed only at Dancing Irish and I am sorry for any offence my temper tantrum caused to anyone else.
That's fine, dude.

hey dude, no personal insults. this is a discussion.

without God, we have no morality. without morality, we have no laws. without laws, we have hell on earth.
Incorrect. Laws exist in places where God does not. Laws existed before Abraham. Laws have always existed, further than when they were first written.

I understand that you don't believe in our/my religion. But please respect our/my religion by not calling it BS. Feel free to point out any fallacies within it. Feel free to use scripture as ammunition. But please don't insult the whole religion and the billions of people who believe in it.

But regardless, I will only use religion when others use it to attack the way I am.
Sorry I do find all organized religions bs ... you are free to believe and pracice as you wish but I have had more then a lifetimes worth of shit taken from the catholic organization and its priests

without God, we have no morality.

By that rationale, all athiests would definitionally have to be completely amoral. They're not. QED, morality does not require the existence of or belief in a god.

(If you'd like, we can have a discussion as to how basic evolutionary biology explains the vast majority of common moral beliefs, but I'd prefer not to threadjack here.)

And it's such a good reason too!

I do not deny that homosexuality is a sin, but I think that religion should be kept out of government. And so did the founding fathers of the US. Banning gay marriage will not save anyone; we will continue to love our partners. Yeah, I want to marry my boyfriend someday, and it ticks me off that I can't -it doesn't tick me off that some people think I shouldn't be able to, though.

i am completely leaving out the govornment. i am saying that people should leave homosexuality for it's own sake.

dude, you can still change. ask God to come into your life.
Ach!

I am gay and Christian, you know. And, I even think homosexuality is a sin. But, Jesus dies on the cross for forgivness of all our sins, including that one. I simply cannot help being gay, but thank God for Jesus.

Being gay and accepting God are not mutually exclusive.

without God, we have no morality. without morality, we have no laws. without laws, we have hell on earth.

My moral code is constructed entirely based on respect for my fellow man and for myself. There are no supernatural beings that factor into it. Morality does not stem from any god, it comes from man.

Here's a fairly inflamatory analagy for those of you saying that being gay is "natural" and not in any way an abnormality because it occurs in nature. Cancer occurs in nature, but it sure as hell isn't normal development. As someone further up posted, nature F--ked up.

Not that I'm trying to call homosexuality the scourge of our time or anything, I've got a fair few gay and bi-sexual friends that I've got absolutely nothing against, but where it occurs in nature it is very rarely comparable to human homosexuality. More often than not it's either due to hormonal changes (cows mounting other cows during oestrous) or (perhaps on the same note) part of growing up and something of a phase in some species. Also I don't believe that there are a great deal of cases in nature where an animal is exclusively homosexual, they just dabble a little either due to social reasons or just because they like a little variation.

When you can show me a species that is exclusively homosexual and has been thriving for generations (without any kind of asexual reproduction) then I will accept that homosexuality is natural.

Back to the topic in the OP, you may not be surprised to hear I'm against gay "marriage". I'm all in favour of civil unions between gay partners and them having exactly the same rights as married couples, but marriage is in the eyes of your respective religion and I do not believe it should be in the domain of the state. If your religion allows gay marriage then yes, I don't mind it, but I think that the state should only be able to hand out civil unions.

I'll just slip into my asbestos suit.

It's funny you say that, because there is a species of lizards made up entirely of lesbians.

and i'm sick of people like you hidding behind God's love. Yes, HE is a God of Love, but also justice. HE holds ALL PEOPLE to the standard he set in the Bible, and if there is one thing HE hates, it's homosexuals.
Your argument is also invalide where it brings God into it because you question HIS Person. Only a stupid feminist would read the Bible and say, "hey, i think God is a She."

God holds ALL PEOPLE to the standard set in the Bible. Then I suppose you better start trying to catch up to the whole "Love thy neighbor as thyself," seeing as Jesus himself said it was the second greatest Commandment.

See its funny, I was taught that God was all about Love, not about hate. Please, eleborate, where does God say that God hates anyone? Usually bigots like you are slightly more enlightened and try to use the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" line. Because even if you argue homosexuality is a sin, that doesn't mean God hates homosexuals.

Did I ever question God's person? I think not. I have cleverly avoided using any pronouns to refer to the Almighty in this comment, thankfully.

Don't insult me. Just don't. See this uber-polite demeanor I'm sporting? Its to cover up the boiling anger that hatred and intolerance creates in me. Insult me, and you risk unleashing it, you "vile, warthog faced baffoon." It is people like you that ought to be imprisoned. Also, I hope that stupid was not to modify feminist, and that being a feminist is not inherently stupid. Because what's inherently stupid is hating others.

I didnt read the Bible and think, "hey, I think God is a She" (although, given that women give life, and God created all life, it is a logical conclusion). Actually, I read the Bible and didn't think one twit about whether the Almighty had a penis or vagina. Frankly, I kinda of doubt the Creator has either.

I dont really know, but i sincerely hope that the Lord has a greater tolerance for ignorance and small mindedness than I do, because I can assure, although I know you are my neighbor, and I should love you, I am repulsed by you.

By that rationale, all athiests would definitionally have to be completely amoral. They're not. QED, morality does not require the existence of or belief in a god.

(If you'd like, we can have a discussion as to how basic evolutionary biology explains the vast majority of common moral beliefs, but I'd prefer not to threadjack here.)

Believe it or not, God has put in your head what C.S. Lewis calls the "Moral Law" and you can guess what that is.

i am completely leaving out the govornment. i am saying that people should leave homosexuality for it's own sake.
Yeah bisexuality is way cooler

Sorry I do find all organized religions bs ... you are free to believe and pracice as you wish but I have had more then a lifetimes worth of shit taken from the catholic organization and its priests
I see, but you can't base all religion based on those experiences, as terrible as they might have been. I'm not suggesting you return to these established religions, just that you not immediately condemn them.

Believe it or not, God has put in your head what C.S. Lewis calls the "Moral Law" and you can guess what that is.
You are right I dont believe it ... care to back it up with any ... um what do we call thoes things again .... oh yeah FACTS

I see, but you can't base all religion based on those experiences, as terrible as they might have been. I'm not suggesting you return to these established religions, just that you not immediately condemn them.
The organization involved is way too much of a tool for me to accept it. Personal faith can be a beautifull thing dont get me wrong but the organization is way to corruptable for me to ever trust

i am completely leaving out the govornment. i am saying that people should leave homosexuality for it's own sake.
But that's not what the thread is about. The thread DOES include government.

@UpwardThrust

You're right. Bisexuality is way cooler. Ha, I don't get along well with other gay guys for some reason... But, bi guys... I love 'em (and one in particular, very much so)!

But that's not what the thread is about. The thread DOES include government.

@UpwardThrust

You're right. Bisexuality is way cooler. Ha, I don't get along well with other gay guys for some reason... But, bi guys... I love 'em (and one in particular, very much so)!
:) we are lovable sometimes

The organization involved is way too much of a tool for me to accept it. Personal faith can be a beautifull thing dont get me wrong but the organization is way to corruptable for me to ever trust
That's why everything said has to be taken with a grain of salt. I can go to church and completely disagree with the pastor or preacher or whoever. I've done it several times. I still believe in the religion. My faith goes to God, not Christianity, though I call myself Christian.

My moral code is constructed entirely based on respect for my fellow man and for myself. There are no supernatural beings that factor into it. Morality does not stem from any god, it comes from man.

Quite so. You can found morality on any number of things besides religion- like Kant did in A Grounding for the Metaphysics of Morals, or like Ayn Rand did in Atlas Shrugged.

Yes, I'm shallow, I care about what it's called. I have no objection to gay rights whatsoever, they're entitled to all the ones that heterosexuals are in my opinion.

But...

So long as we're drawing distinctions between sexual-preference then why not with marriage? Liking members of the opposite sex is different to liking members of the same sex. So we've got different words to describe those orientations. Why not have different words to describe unions between people of different orientations? Or if you object to that, let's just be politically correct and scrub the words homosexual and heterosexual from the dictionary.

last time I checked, Plessy v. Ferguson declaring separate but equal to be A) legal and equal was indeed overturned by Brown v Board of Education, declaring separate but equal to be both unequal and illegal. But apparantly some people have no problem with active discrimination. not to point fingers at you.

Believe it or not, God has put in your head what C.S. Lewis calls the "Moral Law" and you can guess what that is.

I'm afraid I'll have to go with "not" on this one. As I said, I could get into demonstrating how morality stems naturally from basic biological imperatives, but that's hardly relevant to the thread topic.

That said, God clearly didn't put "homosexuality = icky!" into everyone's heads, since many of us see nothing particularly icky about it, so it can hardly be considered part of any universal moral law. If morals stem directly from God to all people regardless of whether you believe in him or not, and a lot of people don't have this particular "moral", doesn't it stand to reason that it didn't come from God?

God holds ALL PEOPLE to the standard set in the Bible. Then I suppose you better start trying to catch up to the whole "Love thy neighbor as thyself," seeing as Jesus himself said it was the second greatest Commandment.

See its funny, I was taught that God was all about Love, not about hate. Please, eleborate, where does God say that God hates anyone? Usually bigots like you are slightly more enlightened and try to use the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" line. Because even if you argue homosexuality is a sin, that doesn't mean God hates homosexuals.

Did I ever question God's person? I think not. I have cleverly avoided using any pronouns to refer to the Almighty in this comment, thankfully.

Don't insult me. Just don't. See this uber-polite demeanor I'm sporting? Its to cover up the boiling anger that hatred and intolerance creates in me. Insult me, and you risk unleashing it, you "vile, warthog faced baffoon." It is people like you that ought to be imprisoned. Also, I hope that stupid was not to modify feminist, and that being a feminist is not inherently stupid. Because what's inherently stupid is hating others.

I didnt read the Bible and think, "hey, I think God is a She" (although, given that women give life, and God created all life, it is a logical conclusion). Actually, I read the Bible and didn't think one twit about whether the Almighty had a penis or vagina. Frankly, I kinda of doubt the Creator has either.

I dont really know, but i sincerely hope that the Lord has a greater tolerance for ignorance and small mindedness than I do, because I can assure, although I know you are my neighbor, and I should love you, I am repulsed by you.


*applaudes* Well you certainly handled that better then I did. Good job.

That's why everything said has to be taken with a grain of salt. I can go to church and completely disagree with the pastor or preacher or whoever. I've done it several times. I still believe in the religion. My faith goes to God, not Christianity, though I call myself Christian.
More power to you ... independant thought is crucial

It is people like you that ought to be imprisoned.

Also, I hope that stupid was not to modify feminist, and that being a feminist is not inherently stupid. Because what's inherently stupid is hating others.

I didnt read the Bible and think, "hey, I think God is a She"

I dont really know, but i sincerely hope that the Lord has a greater tolerance for ignorance and small mindedness than I do, because I can assure, although I know you are my neighbor, and I should love you, I am repulsed by you.

ok.

1. why should i be imprisoned? i have not done anything wrong.
2. no, i did not mean "stupid" to modify feminism. although i do not agree with it, i would not stoop that low.
3. i didn't say you did.
4. why are you repulsed? i am just argueing what i have been taught

That's why everything said has to be taken with a grain of salt. I can go to church and completely disagree with the pastor or preacher or whoever. I've done it several times. I still believe in the religion. My faith goes to God, not Christianity, though I call myself Christian.

Thats such a contradiction though.

:) we are lovable sometimes
But my God, you (bi's) are hard to figure out sometimes, especially when you teeter back and forth between liking women and liking men. @_@ The issues I've had to deal with... geeze.

Thats such a contradiction though.
My life is a contradiction. I deal with it, though.

But my God, you (bi's) are hard to figure out sometimes, especially when you teeter back and forth between liking women and liking men. @_@ The issues I've had to deal with... geeze.
But, they like both at the same time! They don't switch.

Believe me, I know...

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

Are you aware there's this thing called the first amendment? which grants freedom of religion, and as stated by Thomas Jefferson in a letter, 'separation of church and state'. I'd explain that, but it pretty much explains itself.

By the way, hate to break it to you, but quoting lines from your favorite fairy tale gets you nowhere in a logical debate

But my God, you (bi's) are hard to figure out sometimes, especially when you teeter back and forth between liking women and liking men. @_@ The issues I've had to deal with... geeze.
Lol yeah ... but I fall for the person not the gender ... I dont do one night stands, I dont sleep around. I am in a 3 year relationship with a girl right now and before that was a 2 year relationship with a guy

ok.

1. why should i be imprisoned? i have not done anything wrong.
2. no, i did not mean "stupid" to modify feminism. although i do not agree with it, i would not stoop that low.
3. why are you repulsed? i am just argueing what i have been taught

You should be imprisioned for raving bigotry if nothing else

as for not stooping that low: you fail you already have

Personally I am repulsed because you think what you have been taught is the only acceptable way. Wake up and smell the fossil fules! It's the year 2006 not 1406, the christian church no longer rules everyones thoughts and way of life just because it rules yours.

dude, you can still change. ask God to come into your life.

funny, here, you should be talking to yourself. Becuase it isyou who can still change, pray, and ask God to show you love and acceptance. Jesus sat at table with prostitutes and tax-collectors, the most hated people of his time. Seems if you want to be Christ-like, you need to sit at table with some homosexuals.

Are you aware there's this thing called the first amendment? which grants freedom of religion, and as stated by Thomas Jefferson in a letter, 'separation of church and state'. I'd explain that, but it pretty much explains itself.

By the way, hate to break it to you, but quoting lines from your favorite fairy tale gets you nowhere in a logical debate


YAY!
You officially get a bright shiny sticker hailing you as the new favorite! :D

Are you aware there's this thing called the first amendment? which grants freedom of religion, and as stated by Thomas Jefferson in a letter, 'separation of church and state'. I'd explain that, but it pretty much explains itself.

By the way, hate to break it to you, but quoting lines from your favorite fairy tale gets you nowhere in a logical debate


YAY!
You officially get a bright shiny sticker hailing you as the new favorite! :D

Seems the forums bugged out. I was afraid the topic had been deleted.

*applaudes* Well you certainly handled that better then I did. Good job.

*blushes* I'm flattered! Thankyou!!!

Oh, and something I forgot to tell Irish Dancer or whatever his name is.....

I dont hide behind God's love, sweetie. I BASK in it

funny, here, you should be talking to yourself. Becuase it isyou who can still change, pray, and ask God to show you love and acceptance. Jesus sat at table with prostitutes and tax-collectors, the most hated people of his time. Seems if you want to be Christ-like, you need to sit at table with some homosexuals.

Seriously, dude, you've got it all wrong. there are sins that God forgives. but he can't forgive you unless you aknowledge that what you are doing is an abomination to Him and try never to do it again. unless you do that, you are not truely sorry, and w/o that, you are lost.

Christians becoming Homosexual are not Christians anymore, they've taken the mark, and only Jesus can remove it.


by the way, you argue with your set of moralities, and i'll argue with mine.

I'm glad most people posting aren't subscribing to group-think.

*blushes* I'm flattered! Thankyou!!!

Oh, and something I forgot to tell Irish Dancer or whatever his name is.....

I dont hide behind God's love, sweetie. I BASK in it


haha, well, you will be suprized at how many he condenms to hell then. *this is not a personal insult*

The Bible is not the translation of a translation. All modern translations translate directly from classical Hebrew, which is the original. Sometimes slightly ambiguous or unclear passages are clarified using one of the very early Bible translations or versions, such as the Septuagint, the Syriac, the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Vulgate.

Actually that's not true.

The original Bible(was just the Old Testament) was written in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and translated into Greek in approximately the Second Century BCE. It was later translated into Latin in the second half of the 1st Century BCE for mass production(not mass production in the sense we consider it, mass production in ancient terms meant some of the wealthy would have it, and you could find copies at Alexandria). The NT segments were originally written some time in after 38 CE, but before the death of their authors, in Hebrew. We don't even know if the four gospels are written by hand, or were passed on verbally until the writing and compiling of the bible, as there are no records of written bibles until the Niceaen Council in 325 CE, which A) codified the major beliefs of Christianity B) compiled all the gospels and chose specific ones and parts to use. So, at that point, the bible was 'edited', and for the first time was 'officially' published. The Dead Sea Scrolls have not all been found, only parts of some(although there was a myth going around that they all had been found). At that point, the bible had been translated twice, and possibly passed on verbally rather than through writing. It had then been edited again, at which point it would have been published in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. It would stop there, but those stored at Alexandria were burned when the legendary library burned, and the only major supplies of copies(due to the lack of a printing press) remained in Rome, under control of the clergy, and remained somewhat secreted throughout the Dark Ages

haha, well, you will be suprized at how many he condenms to hell then. *this is not a personal insult*

If there is a God who condemns people to hell for something as innocuous as loving someone of one's own gender, I will indeed be surprised. And after I am done being surprised, presumably, I will go to hell, since odds are a God that absurdly vindictive would find something to hate me for, too, along with pretty much everyone else who's ever lived.

What a depressing ideology you have.

ok.

1. why should i be imprisoned? i have not done anything wrong.
2. no, i did not mean "stupid" to modify feminism. although i do not agree with it, i would not stoop that low.
3. i didn't say you did.
4.why are you repulsed? Im just saying what i was taught.

1. You shouldn't be imprisoned, but neither should gays. My anger got the best of me when I said you should. You have done something wrong though. You've espoused hatred and intolerance. And although it is a principal that allows people to express views that I personally don't think should be allowed, my great nation (the US of A) has the highly regarded 1st and 14th Ammendment. And I value them even more than I dislike what you say, so you got me there. You are and should be allowed to say what you think, even if your wrong, disgusting, etc.

2. Glad to see its just me thats stupid and not all of feminism.
3. Pardon me and my stupidity again, the way you said "only a stupid feminist would read the Bible and think maybe God is a She" led me to infer thats what you believed I thought. Miscommunication is a bitch on the internet. Glad, for once, to hear I am wrong.

4. I love that last sentence so much, I'll repeat it. "Why are you repulsed? I'm just arguing what I was taught." Come on, Irishman. Think about what you were taught. Look at it from different angles, see if it holds true. People all taught all kinds of things that are untrue. Do me a favor, think for yourself That said, let me rephrase my original sentence. What you post repulses me, I dont even know you (something I think we're both grateful for). And it repulses me because it smacks of bigotry, ignorance, intolerance, and perversion of God's love and truth.

If there is a God who condemns people to hell for something as innocuous as loving someone of one's own gender, I will indeed be surprised. And after I am done being surprised, presumably, I will go to hell, since odds are a God that absurdly vindictive would find something to hate me for, too, along with pretty much everyone else who's ever lived.

What a depressing ideology you have.

There is a difference in "love" There is Agape love, only thinking about the other person's best, and another word that escapes me right now that means the sexual love. so yes, you have it exactly right, thanks for the summary.

There is a difference in "love" There is Agape love, only thinking about the other person's best, and another word that escapes me right now that means the sexual love. so yes, you have it exactly right, thanks for the summary.

What on earth makes you think that a man's love for another man or a woman's love for another woman cannot involve "only thinking about the other person's best" but must be all about the sex?

There is a difference in "love" There is Agape love, only thinking about the other person's best, and another word that escapes me right now that means the sexual love. so yes, you have it exactly right, thanks for the summary.

Who are you to say what is or isn't love? Love is love, only the person themselves know if they're in love.

1. You shouldn't be imprisoned, but neither should gays.

I never said that gays should be imprisoned, but i just mean to say that they should keep all their homosexual emotions to themselves, and change their ways.

there are two types of people when they argue.

1. the ones that have gone so far in the sin (or whatever the topic of the argument is) that they simply blow off every counter argument that people bring to the table. those people are bias and not worth argueing with.

2. the people who have not yet decided or gone too far in the topic of argumentation and are humble enough to change if they seen reason to.

All of you, (or at least all who have raised their voice) are of option #1.

Seriously, dude, you've got it all wrong. there are sins that God forgives. but he can't forgive you unless you aknowledge that what you are doing is an abomination to Him and try never to do it again. unless you do that, you are not truely sorry, and w/o that, you are lost.

Christians becoming Homosexual are not Christians anymore, they've taken the mark, and only Jesus can remove it.


by the way, you argue with your set of moralities, and i'll argue with mine.

You use the word dude the way my father does. Its kind of funny.

Then acknowledge that hating others is a sin, and go and sin no more! Please! I'm begging you!

Do you need to be truly sorry, yes. However, I'm not sure that homosexuality is any more of a sin than wearing clothing made from different fabrics or being near a menstruating woman. Even St. Augustine (inadvertantly) made an arguement saying that homosexuality may not be a sin.

I do not think you understand homosexuality, if you think it's something that is chosen. Please someone else back me up, i dont know the facts supporting it, but i have always understood it to be natural, ingrained, not a choice.

And although our moralties do seem different, I'm trying to use similar moralities to yours, so that I might better make you understand what I am trying to say.

I never said that gays should be imprisoned, but i just mean to say that they should keep all their homosexual emotions to themselves, and change their ways.

there are two types of people when they argue.

1. the ones that have gone so far in the sin (or whatever the topic of the argument is) that they simply blow off every counter argument that people bring to the table. those people are bias and not worth argueing with.

2. the people who have not yet decided or gone too far in the topic of argumentation and are humble enough to change if they seen reason to.

All of you, (or at least all who have raised their voice) are of option #1.
You happen to fall into group 1)

What on earth makes you think that a man's love for another man or a woman's love for another woman cannot involve "only thinking about the other person's best" but must be all about the sex?
I never said that. i just said that there are different types of love, and marrage includes all of them. OBVIOUSLY, homosexuals have all of the love types.

I never said that. i just said that there are different types of love, and marrage includes all of them. OBVIOUSLY, homosexuals have all of the love types.

Hence they are entitled to marriage.

I never said that. i just said that there are different types of love, and marrage includes all of them. OBVIOUSLY, homosexuals have all of the love types.

Good to hear. I assume this means your God won't be condemning homosexuals who genuinely love each other, i.e. the sort of homosexuals who'd likely be inclined to marry each other?

Quick note of apology to the athiests/agnostics/pagans/etc on this thread opposed to the excessive "God" tone to it. I quite agree God ought to be left out of it. But when someone wants to use the Judeo-Christian God that so many believe in and twist that faith into teachings of hatred and bigotry, I believe they should be shown that ignorance and hatred is wrong, anyway, but also that it is certainly not what "God" wants. Gays should be allowed to marry, God or no god.

Ur right it doesnt effect my personal life but look at it this way,there are lots of kids to adopt and a lot of artificial encimination going on,if gay/lesbians get married they'll probably do one or the other,no real problem except that sooner or later everone will be gay(far in the future)no big deal,now lets say for some reason less people have babies,what will that do?make us extinct,go ahead and be gay,but we cant look at this as though we're not going to frown upon it because in reality you're choosing you sexual preferences over the human race*steps off stage*

Author's Premise #1: Allowing Gay Marriage would allow homosexuals to breed through artificial insemination and adoption.

Author's Premise #2: Allowing Gay Marriage would cause the extinction of the human race because of lack of breeding.

Respondents Premise #1: Author is a whack-job.

You use the word dude the way my father does. Its kind of funny.

Then acknowledge that hating others is a sin, and go and sin no more! Please! I'm begging you!

Do you need to be truly sorry, yes. However, I'm not sure that homosexuality is any more of a sin than wearing clothing made from different fabrics or being near a menstruating woman. Even St. Augustine (inadvertantly) made an arguement saying that homosexuality may not be a sin.

I do not think you understand homosexuality, if you think it's something that is chosen. Please someone else back me up, i dont know the facts supporting it, but i have always understood it to be natural, ingrained, not a choice.

And although our moralties do seem different, I'm trying to use similar moralities to yours, so that I might better make you understand what I am trying to say.

first of all, i'd like to say, that after reading this post i have much more respect for you.

but secondly, you're wrong. :-p (sorry)

Thirdly, i never said that i hate gays. i simply detest their ways, and do not wish to hang out with them.

but no, neither i, nor my family would offer help to a gay on the street.

Fourthly, you're wrong again. HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN. IT IS ABOMATIBLE TO THE LORD. again, you can either accept that or not.

and no, i do not wish to understand homosexuality. all i know is that it's plain wrong and hell worthy.

Hence they are entitled to marriage.

AND hell.

hey, even God loves two for one deals

first of all, i'd like to say, that after reading this post i have much more respect for you.

but secondly, you're wrong. :-p (sorry)

Thirdly, i never said that i hate gays. i simply detest their ways, and do not wish to hang out with them.

but no, neither i, nor my family would offer help to a gay on the street.

Fourthly, you're wrong again. HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN. IT IS ABOMATIBLE TO THE LORD. again, you can either accept that or not.

and no, i do not wish to understand homosexuality. all i know is that it's plain wrong and hell worthy.
Wow not offering charity to someone in need goes against almost any rendition of christianity that I ever heard.

Sure you are christian?

AND hell.

hey, even God loves two for one deals
Whatever you care to believe ... how bout we let god make that decision and you can get the fuck out of our bedrooms

You happen to fall into group 1)

why would i want to fall into a group that i KNOW is wrong? most gays accept heterosexuality, thus, you should not have a problem with me.

I never said that gays should be imprisoned, but i just mean to say that they should keep all their homosexual emotions to themselves, and change their ways.

See, here's why I thought you had. You wrote:
The Dancing Irish

Originally Posted by New Zero Seven
Yes and murderers harm people and thats why they're thrown into prison. Duh...



God holds both to the same standard. the govornment should too.

why would i want to fall into a group that i KNOW is wrong? most gays accept heterosexuality, thus, you should not have a problem with me.
I was talking about the second part

hat they simply blow off every counter argument that people bring to the table. those people are bias and not worth argueing with.

Homosexuals make up only 11% of the any given population, so obviously the majority are heterosexual. Hence reproducing will still go on. If anything, we shouldn't be reproducing as much since the world's population is exploding and its screwing up the planet. Just a thought.

Homosexuals make up only 11% of the any given population, so obviously the majority are heterosexual. Hence reproducing will still go on. If anything, we shouldn't be reproducing as much since the world's population is exploding and its screwing up the planet. Just a thought.
Homsexuality will save this world yet :)

Hence they are entitled to marriage.


here is a quick summary for ya: posted a little bit ago.

If there is a God who condemns people to hell for something as innocuous as loving someone of one's own gender, I will indeed be surprised. And after I am done being surprised, presumably, I will go to hell, since odds are a God that absurdly vindictive would find something to hate me for, too, along with pretty much everyone else who's ever lived.

See, here's why I thought you had. You wrote:
The Dancing Irish

Originally Posted by New Zero Seven
Yes and murderers harm people and thats why they're thrown into prison. Duh...



God holds both to the same standard. the govornment should too.


aha, um...*coughs* err...hehe. sorry bout that. i know what i sounds like, but what i really meant by that is that they should keep it illigel

See, here's why I thought you had. You wrote:
The Dancing Irish

Originally Posted by New Zero Seven
Yes and murderers harm people and thats why they're thrown into prison. Duh...



God holds both to the same standard. the govornment should too.

those last 2 sentences. that's called a theocracy. and self-respecting government which gives equal rights to its citizens should give no bearing to what your imaginary friend tells you to believe.

here is a quick summary for ya: posted a little bit ago.

If there is a God who condemns people to hell for something as innocuous as loving someone of one's own gender, I will indeed be surprised. And after I am done being surprised, presumably, I will go to hell, since odds are a God that absurdly vindictive would find something to hate me for, too, along with pretty much everyone else who's ever lived.

Okay, so if my comment is really a fair depiction of your God, then why would any sane person worship him? Why would anyone venerate someone whom they acknowledge to be a vindictive, cruel, hate-filled being?

Ah, the never-ending debate on gay marriage. In one corner, we have the 12-year-old poor spellers who listen to everytihng their parents tell them, and in the other we have the "OMG Christianz hate uz" people.

The thing I hate hearing about are the "activist" judges. There is really no such thing as an activist judge. The thing that conservatives are so afraid of is the interpretation of the law in favor of gay marriage, which is why they need a constitutional amendment. It's not like some Massachusetts judge just reached into his ass and pulled out gay marriage- they interpreted the State constitution to give gay people the right to marry.

WHICH IS THEIR FUCKING JOB.

To all the Christian bible-beaters out there, I say: stop trying to legislate morality, and remember the passage of the New Testament where Jesus says "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's." as well as "my kingdom is not of this earth." It's not your job to legislate morality or create a Christian nation. That's bullshit.

What the whole anti-gay marriage thing boils down to is a couple of angry men who use an archaic phrase from an oft-ignored book of the bible to justify their hatred. That's all it is, and all it will ever be.

THIS IS MY 27TH AND FINAL REPLY

ok, one question. why would i go into this forum? i'm fine in my little heterosexual life without bothering with you guys. what's the point in arguing if there is no possible way to "convert" the others? my only hope is that i left some of you with questions.

first of all, i'd like to say, that after reading this post i have much more respect for you.

but secondly, you're wrong. :-p (sorry)

Thirdly, i never said that i hate gays. i simply detest their ways, and do not wish to hang out with them.

but no, neither i, nor my family would offer help to a gay on the street.

Fourthly, you're wrong again. HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN. IT IS ABOMATIBLE TO THE LORD. again, you can either accept that or not.

and no, i do not wish to understand homosexuality. all i know is that it's plain wrong and hell worthy.
Do you demand to see visual proof that someone has had and enjoyed sex with an other-gendered person before you help him? If not, I can only assume that you help no one: there's no way you can be sure that the people you meet aren't gay. (Besides, refusing to help gay people doesn't sound like loving them as your neighbour.)

Except that you believe that your god is absurdly vindictive and that everyone's going to hell no matter what they do, so maybe it does make sense to you to avoid following the points of your religion that you find troublesome.

THIS IS MY 27TH AND FINAL REPLY

ok, one question. why would i go into this forum? i'm fine in my little heterosexual life without bothering with you guys. what's the point in arguing if there is no possible way to "convert" the others? my only hope is that i left some of you with questions.
No questions. You may leave now.

THIS IS MY 27TH AND FINAL REPLY

ok, one question. why would i go into this forum? i'm fine in my little heterosexual life without bothering with you guys. what's the point in arguing if there is no possible way to "convert" the others? my only hope is that i left some of you with questions.

There is no point, cuz conversion isn't possible. Now shut your mouth and get outta here.

first of all, i'd like to say, that after reading this post i have much more respect for you.

but secondly, you're wrong. :-p (sorry)

Thirdly, i never said that i hate gays. i simply detest their ways, and do not wish to hang out with them.

but no, neither i, nor my family would offer help to a gay on the street.

Fourthly, you're wrong again. HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN. IT IS ABOMATIBLE TO THE LORD. again, you can either accept that or not.

and no, i do not wish to understand homosexuality. all i know is that it's plain wrong and hell worthy.

Ummm, thanks for the respect I guess? I do try to be civil and rational when arguing, tho i often fail.

What am I wrong about? You didnt specify. And I know there are some things you must agree I'm right about, no?

I admit in the time i've been on here those opposed to gay marriage have blurred together, and perhaps you did not say some of the things i thought you had. However, I do distinctly recall you saying if there is one thing God hates, it is Homosexuals. Not Homosexuality, and not theways of homosexuals. Clearly by what you stated about that was a mistake, and you meant to say that God hates the act of homosexuality, not gays.

In good fun, people who can't spell are abominable to me. I'm presuming you meant homosexuality is abominable to the Lord, since only the Lord knows what exactly ABOMITABLE is. hehehe.

Seriously though, what makes you think that? Because I have read a lot, and have come to the conclusion that its not abominable to the Lord.

Lets talk about sex for a minute
Sex is two people coming together and joining as one. Christianity deems that it is an act done in marriage, to show love for one another. Why should two men or two women not be able to join together to physically manifest their emotional and mental attatchment.

Also, before you start saying the Bible defines marriage as between one man and one woman, you're wrong. In the Old Testament, where most "Laws" forbidding homosexuality occur, Jacob had at least two wives. So please don't go there.

You don't understand homosexuality, so how can you condem it? How do you know its "plain wrong" and "hell worthy"?

\
The thing I hate hearing about are the "activist" judges. There is really no such thing as an activist judge. The thing that conservatives are so afraid of is the interpretation of the law in favor of gay marriage, which is why they need a constitutional amendment. It's not like some Massachusetts judge just reached into his ass and pulled out gay marriage- they interpreted the State constitution to give gay people the right to marry.

WHICH IS THEIR FUCKING JOB.

Well said, sir (or ma'am)

Just a note, it's impossible 'convert' a homosexual. After all, unless you have the power to change genetics, it's hardwired into us. Only a small percentage chose to be this way, but why they would want to is beyond me. I enjoy being homosexual, but if I were originally hetero, I would probably not make a transition unless someone came on to me.

Converting a natural-born homosexual is like trying to make a black person asian.

THIS IS MY 27TH AND FINAL REPLY

ok, one question. why would i go into this forum? i'm fine in my little heterosexual life without bothering with you guys. what's the point in arguing if there is no possible way to "convert" the others? my only hope is that i left some of you with questions.

I come into these forums because of people like you, believe it or not.
While its nice to see the thoughts of those I agree with, it is much more fun and educational to have those thoughts challenged. It makes me see the flaws in my arguemnent, so that I may either abandon it or make it stronger. I hope you have seen the flaws in yours, so you might do one of the two. That, my friend, is the point of arguing, even if you cannot "convert" the others. I did not seriously think I'd get you to agree with me. But I was hoping you might see some things from my perspective. The more you do it, the better your arguements will get, and the more questions you'll be able to leave people with. Have a good night/day, whatever it is in your particular time zone.

Well said, sir (or ma'am)


Sir.

And thank you.

All this bullshit really sticks in my craw. My state passed the referendum limiting gay marriage, which I think is terrible legislation. However, I'm heartened by the fact that most legislation is overturned or re-interpreted in later years.

Theres always the possibility of moving north of the border to get hitched. :p

Sir.

And thank you.

All this bullshit really sticks in my craw. My state passed the referendum limiting gay marriage, which I think is terrible legislation. However, I'm heartened by the fact that most legislation is overturned or re-interpreted in later years.

Yeah, I know, it can make one want to vomit, all the hate some people spew. As for the referendum, yeah, unfortunately democracy does not always make the best or most just decisions. Sadly, equality and justice take way too long, but one can hope eventually it will come about.

Gay marriage is an election issue along with immigration. The issues are sort of tools used to rouse the christian right into voting.