NationStates Jolt Archive

What are your feelings on the necessity of space exploration and/or colonization? I personally think if we don't get off this rock as a species we are going to die out either by our own hands or natural disasters.

I think man is destined to explore the solar system and hopefully the galaxy someday.
The amount of money that is spent of it is massive, but it's small compared to what the government puts out on it's own military and internal politics.

I'd really like to see it, but in the current state of the world space exploration and colonization won't occur until there is a financial return from it. At this point it's a sinkhole for good vibes and a feeling of accomplishment, but as there is no monetary gain from it, we're not doing it too much.

Give it a century or two, once we start running out of resources, and you might see asteroid mining colonies spring up almost of their own volition

I think it is a desirable thing. Expanding in to space would drive technological, economic, and social advancement inconcievable to us now and would provide the raw materials necessary to solve the problems on Earth as well as provide outlets for expansion on to other worlds, which could be an invaluable resource for social and economic experimentation.

Plus, if we don't expand it's possible someone else might...I don't think humanity exists in a vacuum.

:sniper::gundge: I think space exploration is going to be the way forwards. give us fifty years and earth might be uninhabited

I'd really like to see it, but in the current state of the world space exploration and colonization won't occur until there is a financial return from it. At this point it's a sinkhole for good vibes and a feeling of accomplishment, but as there is no monetary gain from it, we're not doing it too much.

Well, kind of. Space exploration does produce a lot of technologies that are eventually adapted in to the mainstream, and the space environment provides an environment for testing unmatchable on Earth. Also, space manufacturing has some major advantages over terrestrial manufacturing, and once it becomes affordable on a large scale it will take off.

Personally, I think the first colonization will be relocation in to orbit rather than planetary colonization or settlement of moons other than the Earth's; asteroid mining will also be a major endeavor. I think it will be something like this:

1. Orbital Earth
2. Moon
3. Asteroid Belt
4. Terrestrial Planets
5. Gas giant moons
6. Gas giant orbits
7. Pluto/Charon
8. Oort Cloud
9. Other stars

:sniper::gundge: I think space exploration is going to be the way forwards. give us fifty years and earth might be uninhabited

Is there some sort of rule that says you have to include gun smilies in your first post?

Seriously, why do people do that?

Right now, if a giant asteroid crashed into Earth, we'd go the way of the dinosaurs. If we had colonies on other worlds, our odds of survival would improve. Whether we'll ever reach that point, however, is questionable. It seems to me that our space capability is going down, not up! :(

We have not finished exploring our own planet...

We have not finished exploring our own planet...

We've over explored it already.

We need to do it fast, soon, and as cheaply as possible.

We've over explored it already.

Actually over 60% of the earth's surface is totally unexplored (remote jungles and ocean beds), while 90% of the viable living space on the planet is in the open oceans (remember, 3d rather than 2d).

So I'd say we've a bit of exploring left to do.

However I would say we're overEXPLOITED what we do know of.

Is there some sort of rule that says you have to include gun smilies in your first post?

Seriously, why do people do that?

Haha, my thoughts exactly. *is proud that he has never used a gun smiley, no matter how angry or n00bish he feels*

But yeah, Space Colonisation good. If only for avoiding having all of our eggs in the same basket.

Actually over 60% of the earth's surface is totally unexplored (remote jungles and ocean beds), while 90% of the viable living space on the planet is in the open oceans (remember, 3d rather than 2d).

So I'd say we've a bit of exploring left to do.

However I would say we're overEXPLOITED what we do know of.

But in the 60% you include water surface? Even so, i had no idea.
And well, i do know oceans are highly inexplored, and yes, i guess i meant overexploited. I learn something new everyday, eh?
The thing is, even if our planet is still totally unexplored doesnt mean we shouldnt explore space, thats like saying you wont leave your birth country and see other places while you still havent explored 100% of it. Exploration is relative.

if all the world goverments united and solved earth's problems first, then sure, funnel all funds, to develop better, engines and different technologies, to colonies, terraform and explore other planets sure. That's way out there though. Won't happen any time soon.

I reckon space exploration's pretty pointless at this point. Wait until we get some technology that can do actual (manned) interplanetery travel.

I reckon space exploration's pretty pointless at this point. Wait until we get some technology that can do actual (manned) interplanetery travel.

But if we cease funding space exploration now the money won't be around to research these technologies tomorrow.

I don't think it's up to the government to spend taxes flying around in space, but I'd still love to see mankind expand into the solar system, perhaps beyond. I can't wait till the private sector starts really getting its act together and people start living on other planets. Unfortunately I'll probably be dead before this happens.

We had projects going a while back for manned interplanetary travel. They were cut because of the expense or lack of interest or some other reason.

Project Orion

Sending people in to space propelled by nuclear weapons might at first seem a totally mad idea, but the physics are actually sound. Much research and development was done during the 1960's, and small scale models using conventional explosives actually flew. The principle is simple: use the power of a nuclear blast to propel a vehicle forward. The obvious problems are the power of the blast and the safety of the vehicle and its crew. It was envisaged that the ships would use a 'Pusher Plate', through which the bombs would be ejected. This would have an ablative surface and toroidal airbags to cushion the blow, and would have been connected to the rest of the ship by large shock absorbers. Acceleration experienced by the crew would be smoothed out to acceptable levels. Using nuclear weapons would obviously release a huge amount of energy - far more than conventional rockets - so the ships could be huge, weighing many thousands of tons.

An Orion mission to Mars was seriously considered. Due to the obvious problems which launching such a mission from the ground, it was decided that an upgraded Saturn V booster would be used to lift it into low earth orbit, but this constrained the diameter of the ship to around 10 meters. Additonal thrust at lift off would have been provided by 4 strap-on boosters, each one with its own F1 engine.

Two launches would be needed to assemble the ship. The travel time to Mars would only have been around 125 days, much quicker than with rockets such as Nerva which would have taken approximately 2 years. During the unpowered 'cruise' portion of the flight, the whole vehicle would have been spun 'end over end' to provide the crew with artificial gravity.

A crew of 6 or 8 would have made the trip, and the ship would have carried a 'Mars Excursion Vehicle' derived from lifting body research to carry the expedition to the surface and back.

Now there were some serious problems with Orion and its variants but it was a start.

I reckon space exploration's pretty pointless at this point. Wait until we get some technology that can do actual (manned) interplanetery travel.

And you think technology develops by itself? By explorating space we are developing technology.

:sniper::gundge: I think space exploration is going to be the way forwards. give us fifty years and earth might be uninhabited

For a forum stereotype, the gun-smiley-laden first post is amazingly frequently accurate....

On topic, I think it's absolutely necessary, and inevitable. Our chances of survival if we stay on Earth diminish by the moment - in addition to the ever-present threat of a comet or asteriod strike, we have the manmade disasters-waiting-to-happen of nuclear war or genetically engineered superplague, the collapse of the environment due to global warming, and the overdue pole flip. There's almost no way we'll survive another century or two. We simply have to get out of here.

Beyond the simple survival necessity, it's also desirable. Humanity can't reach its full power and potential here on Earth, not even close.

Im on the fence...we should be exploring more here on earth first than worrying about space colonies...

If we receive no outside influence, space will be going to the capitalists.

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Beyond the simple survival necessity, it's also desirable. Humanity can't reach its full power and potential here on Earth, not even close.

Absolutely. Growth drives technology and improvements in living standards and productivity. If we don't grow, we stagnate and lose the ability to innovate and solve the problems that are the product of human society.

Population and economic growth were zero during the Dark Ages...I don't think I want to return to that, so it's imperative that we expand in to space.

Absolutely. Growth drives technology and improvements in living standards and productivity. If we don't grow, we stagnate and lose the ability to innovate and solve the problems that are the product of human society.

Population and economic growth were zero during the Dark Ages...I don't think I want to return to that, so it's imperative that we expand in to space.

Not really relevant, but where do you get that last statistic? I would think there was some of both during that time.

Considering that our current, admittedly infantile, space exploration program has:

-Helped develop new electronic and miniaturization technology, like the microprocessor.
-Brought the world closer together through satellite communications.
-Provided the military with tactical advantages like realtime overhead surveillance and GPS.
-Done more to stimulate the American economy than any tax cut or business subsidy could ever do.


...I'm gonna have to say it's been a good investment so far. If it somehow helps to save humanity from extinction in some distant future.....Bonus!

Yes, i also agree that we should leave this planet.

I hate it when kids dont think we should colonize other planets. They are like "We already ruined this planet, we can't ruin another" and im like WTF?? What's the point of visiting another planet if we aren't going to inhabit it?? "We should just research it" BULLSHIT There's no reason to study other planets if we aren't going to later try to inhabit it.

Of course, im like one of the few kids at school who doesn't absolutely hate G.W. Bush (but i don't like him either) and also doesnt hate America and absolutely love Europe.

As soon as they find evidence of some type of fuel or energy source out their space exploration will go full tilt.

Yes, i also agree that we should leave this planet.

I hate it when kids dont think we should colonize other planets. They are like "We already ruined this planet, we can't ruin another" and im like WTF?? What's the point of visiting another planet if we aren't going to inhabit it?? "We should just research it" BULLSHIT There's no reason to study other planets if we aren't going to later try to inhabit it.

Of course, im like one of the few kids at school who doesn't absolutely hate G.W. Bush (but i don't like him either) and also doesnt hate America and absolutely love Europe.

Would you want to live on Jupiter? Or Pluto? Not every planet we encounter will be useful for habitation. We can't colonize them all.

"Man must explore, and this is exploration at it's greatest."

-Dave Scott, Commander, Apollo 15

Space exploration is extremely important. People always say that we need to solve our problems here on Earth before we invest in a large space program. But what if by going into space we could solve those problems? So much technology has come out of the space program, and people don't realize it. Unfortunately, NASA is accomplishing less and less. With the shuttles stuck on Earth, and the ISS years behind schedule, things don't look good for them.
But luckily, the private sector is beginning to boom. SpaceShipOne winning the X-prize marked the beginning of a new era. The space race of the 50's and 60's was only between two nations, and look how fast technology developed then. Now imagine dozens of corporations doing the same thing. Things will be going light speed. These corporations will begin to mine in space, colonies will develop to support these mines, and we'll spread throughout the solar system. Eventually we'll leave on interstellar missions, and colonize many worlds.

The shuttle was a waste. We threw away billions of dollars in research and development for the sake of a "Cheaper" reusable vehicle. The Russians had it right. They didn't fuck with a thing that worked. We tried to advance further than our technology could take us, and it cost us billions of dollars, all public interest, and the lives of 14 astronauts.

Would you want to live on Jupiter? Or Pluto? Not every planet we encounter will be useful for habitation. We can't colonize them all.

What do you have against Jupiter? I find it quite pleasant. :D

Seriously, research will have to come long before any colonization. The only worlds we'd have a chance of colonizing in this solar system would be Mars or some of the big moons, and that would be far beyond our current ability. That's why we should do research, so maybe someday we WILL be able to colonize planets, maybe even get outside our solar system.

I wonder if they will be able to find a way to reach another star before I die. I can imagine the media coverage...

I wonder if they will be able to find a way to reach another star before I die. I can imagine the media coverage...

How old are you? We could be conceivably be sending upload-inhabited starwisps to a nearby solar system by the middle of the century or even earlier. Maybe as early as the late '30s or early '40s.

Would you want to live on Jupiter? Or Pluto? Not every planet we encounter will be useful for habitation. We can't colonize them all.

Of course not. Why would we want to? Jupiter is all about resources. It's the ultimate jackpot. Oceans of hydrogen and helium-3, basically every element on the periodic table, trillions of exojoules of rotational kinetic energy, etc. etc. It's moons will make good sources of metals and other raw materials, too, except for the ones we reconstruct as cable anchors to 'mine' Jupiter's energy with. Pluto we can just deconstruct for mass to be transformed into computronium, along with Venus, Mercury, Mars, the Moon, (once we've stripmined it for He3) and in the long run all of Sol's satellites, except I suppose Earth.

Really, in the long term, we won't colonize any of the planet's: we'll deconstruct them for computational resources to build the thoughtcloud, the Matrioshka Brain around the Sun. Once most of the population either crashes, emigrates, or uploads, we won't need space for physical humans. Almost everyone will be an informational entity.

How old are you? We could be conceivably be sending upload-inhabited starwisps to a nearby solar system by the middle of the century or even earlier. Maybe as early as the late '30s or early '40s.

18...
I dont agree with you. Even going to Mars will be barely done by then...

We have the technology to go to Mars. It wouldn't even be that expensive.

Robert Zubrin wrote a nifty book about it. The Case for Mars

18...
I dont agree with you. Even going to Mars will be barely done by then...

What do you mean, 'done'? Fully terraformed and inhabited by as much of Earth's population as it can fit? Why wait for that to occur to keep expanding? For that matter, if we detect something worth exploring or towing back, we'll probably head exosolar long before we 'finish' doing anything to Mars. Who wants to live there anyway? It's dumb mass at the bottom of a gravity well - much better used if we strip mine it for suitable fuel materials and major metal sources, and then reprocess the rest into computronium. Synthetic nanocomputing elements.

We're going to have a population crash in the West eventually anyway, China and India will top off as they reach a point where the choice is between imminent implosion under their own weight or massively reduced population growth, Africa will be lucky if it survives not decimated by disease and climate change, and doubly lucky if it manages to bootstrap itself up or get itself yanked out of 'hellhole-of-the-world' status; I don't think we have to worry about a massive boom in population and consumption there.

As even this diminishing global population start uploading into computing networks and emigrating to space, the Moon, LEO, and trans-Jovian orbit, (not Mars; it's a crapshoot. Nothing economically viable there) the terrestrial, physically incarnate baseline human population won't be so much of an issue anymore.

What do you mean, 'done'? Fully terraformed and inhabited by as much of Earth's population as it can fit? Why wait for that to occur to keep expanding? For that matter, if we detect something worth exploring or towing back, we'll probably head exosolar long before we 'finish' doing anything to Mars. Who wants to live there anyway? It's dumb mass at the bottom of a gravity well - much better used if we strip mine it for suitable fuel materials and major metal sources, and then reprocess the rest into computronium. Synthetic nanocomputing elements.

We're going to have a population crash in the West eventually anyway, China and India will top off as they reach a point where the choice is between imminent imposion under their own weight or massively reduced population growth, Africa will be lucky if it survives not decimated by disease and climate change, and doubly lucky if it manages to bootstrap itself up or get itself yanked out of 'hellhole-of-the-world' status; I don't think we have to worry about a massive boom in population and consumption there.

As even this diminishing global population start uploading and emigrating to space, the Moon, LEO, and trans-Jovian orbit, (not Mars; it's a crapshoot. Nothing economically viable there) the terrestrial, physically incarnate baseline population won't be so much of an issue anymore.

LOL. Terraforming? The US will make the first manned mission to there in 2040s...Terraforming (even if it's possible) might begin in next century....

You're thinking way too small. The US government, basing its estimates on current technology and the rate at which it adopts successful new technologies, thinks that it will reach Mars in the '40s.

The fact is, the government is no longer the prime agent of space exploration. The private sector is, and they do things rather differently. The sloth and inefficiency of the feds is anathema to private industry. Not to mention that they innovate and adopt faster, technologically speaking. Linear extrapolation from current technology is wrong. Assuming the government as the prime agent of exploration is wrong. Assuming space exploration will move along at the kind of speed NASA moves at (arbitrarily close to zero) is wrong.

Technological innovation is exponential, and where there is the sweet scent of profit, there is always a way. We'll be in Jovian orbit setting up ingenious monkey-in-a-can contraptions to mine the planet and its moons for energy and raw materials by the middle of the century. I'll make a bet on it.

Space exploration should be privatized with very strict government regulations. And NASA is basically inept.

Space exploration should be privatized with very strict government regulations. And NASA is basically inept.

Why do you need to regulate it? I think we should let private companies mine the moon.

Why do you need to regulate it? I think we should let private companies mine the moon.

I don't care about that, I meant safety and fuel efficiency regulations. They can do whatever they want as long as they don't harm people or the earth's environment.

Not really relevant, but where do you get that last statistic? I would think there was some of both during that time.

If you take the population of 360 million worldwide in 1300 and the population of 170 million in 1 AD and calculate the rate of growth, you get 0.00057% per year; if you look at China and Europe in particular you see that population was negative from its 1 AD levels until the 11th century and only started growing after that period.

GDP per capita during this period declined and flattened until the 11th century as well. I'll look for the graphs for all of this later.

NASA isn't inept, per se. They just haven't had a mission, a true mission, in decades. Remember that it was NASA that went from a popgun shot with Al Shepard to landing on the moon in only 7 years.

NASA isn't inept, per se. They just haven't had a mission, a true mission, in decades. Remember that it was NASA that went from a popgun shot with Al Shepard to landing on the moon in only 7 years.

NASA is inept because they don't accomplish anything. Maybe it's because they aren't given anything to accompish, but they still don't do anything.

Some great arguments here about technologies and time scales but there is one other problem here that even private sector couldn't deal with and thats man power/physical resourses.

The Mars issue, yes we could prob be living there by 2040's, but as for interstellar travel as mentioned b4 its very unlikley with the current world state of affairs it may ever happen. The nearset stars will take generations to reach and that takes a much bigger ship than anything we've even drempt of constcucting.

BTW i'm totall pro space exploration, but i think it needs to be way more cooperative that at the moment. A lot of reaserch is being duplicated for the status of doing it first, but space may be about human survival - time to pull together for a chaneg me thinks

NASA is inept because they don't accomplish anything. Maybe it's because they aren't given anything to accompish, but they still don't do anything.


Think you hit the nail on the head here.

Its a lack of real mission rather than inabbility. NASA and ESA for that fact plus other agencies are brimming with technology and brains, but the work there are doing is limited and too restriction controlled by rate of development and viable capital returns in the nearish future.

Some great arguments here about technologies and time scales but there is one other problem here that even private sector couldn't deal with and thats man power/physical resourses.

The Mars issue, yes we could prob be living there by 2040's, but as for interstellar travel as mentioned b4 its very unlikley with the current world state of affairs it may ever happen. The nearset stars will take generations to reach and that takes a much bigger ship than anything we've even drempt of constcucting.

BTW i'm totall pro space exploration, but i think it needs to be way more cooperative that at the moment. A lot of reaserch is being duplicated for the status of doing it first, but space may be about human survival - time to pull together for a chaneg me thinks

Yes, but, with bigger helps from the private sector, agencies like NASA and ESA might get a chance to better planning.

I really doubt any human will be able to live there by 2040, i would love to see that, but i honestly doubt it, hopefully im wrong. By 2040 some humans will be living in the moon, almost for sure, the moon base is in the plans, and in 2014 (thats when, right?) when they go back to the moon, they'll establish a base there and hop on to mars. And i do agree that sometimes it would be better if
agencies and countries would work together for progress.

I am pro space-exploration and for constructing space colonies. We'd be that much closer to a Gundam-style future then :D

Gundam-style

Pls enlighten me? Esp as it makes you grin in a funny style, sounds my cup of tea!

Pls enlighten me? Esp as it make you grin in funny style, sounds my cup of tea
Long-running mecha anime sci-fi where approx 8 billion people are living in space colonies around earth at its beginning (well that's the main timeline; there are a few alt. universe timelines as well).

Also, the primary weapon of war has now become robotic, humanoid-like machines called 'mobile suits.' The name Gundam refers to a specific (mostly prototype) line of these suits, with a number of distinguishing features in their design...

Long-running mecha anime sci-fi where approx 8 billion people are living in space colonies around earth at its beginning (well that's the main timeline; there are a few alt. universe timelines as well).

Also, the primary weapon of war has now become robotic, humanoid-like machines called 'mobile suits.' The name Gundam refers to a specific (mostly prototype) line of these suits, with a number of distinguishing features in their design...

Sounds cool!! But to stay on topic i do hope they don't take war into space!! We might as well just become extinct here!! :headbang:

The planet is not beyond saving yet. To say that it is and to start sinking money into space exploration as a way to make ourselves feel better about destroying our own planet is just evading the real issue. We should fix our own planet before we go looking for others.

The planet is not beyond saving yet. To say that it is and to start sinking money into space exploration as a way to make ourselves feel better about destroying our own planet is just evading the real issue. We should fix our own planet before we go looking for others.

I dont think our planet is beyong saving. We dont put effort in space exploration because of that. Its due to technological evolution, knowledge of other worlds and our own, finding new places to live (assuming that we colonize another planet) and most of it all, pure human curiosity.

I dont think our planet is beyong saving. We dont put effort in space exploration because of that. Its due to technological evolution, knowledge of other worlds and our own, finding new places to live (assuming that we colonize another planet) and most of it all, pure human curiosity.


I hope it can be!! i haven't made plans to move yet. I started plans for a space arc, but then i got optamistic and decided to stay.

What are your feelings on the necessity of space exploration and/or colonization? I personally think if we don't get off this rock as a species we are going to die out either by our own hands or natural disasters.
i think we've got better things to do. space exploration/colonisation is pointless until we can all do it together.

i think we've got better things to do. space exploration/colonisation is pointless until we can all do it together.

Sure, i agree we have better things to do, but i would say that stopping space research is going to greatly help these things happen. (at least financially space is a relativly small sector) Also, i think space really inspiers people in a way other relms don't.

Having said that i doubt the 6 billion poverty stricken give two hoots about it. So may be your right, until we're responsible enough to do it properly maybe we shouldn't bother.

Huummm! stuck on the fence, how odd for me?!?!

If we had a policy of "wait for everyone else to catch up" we would never have gotten to the moon. Hell, we would never have gotten off the ground! Competition and conflict are the reason we have inovation of any kind. It'd be nice to wait for everyone to catch up but would you want to see a race where all the runners held hands and crossed the finish line together? I know I wouldn't. There are old ideas that were abandoned and new ones that aren't getting any attention. The Delta Clipper looked good for a while but a full sized version was never built.