NationStates Jolt Archive

Does it exist? I've heard some people claim that the universe is so vast its impossible that the only life to develop anywhere would be on Earth. Howevere, Earth is the only planet where life definitely exists in our solar system so far (whether or not it is enjoyable is entirely different subject). So, does other life exist in the universe?

Yes, but it isn't like we think it is

I'd be more surprised to find that life did not exist beyond Earth than to find out it did.

Yes, but it isn't like we think it is
Oh, a missed chance for a clichéd Star Trek line if I ever saw one.:p

Yea, I hope so. It would be cool.

Does it exist? I've heard some people claim that the universe is so vast its impossible that the only life to develop anywhere would be on Earth. Howevere, Earth is the only planet where life definitely exists in our solar system so far (whether or not it is enjoyable is entirely different subject). So, does other life exist in the universe?

Around our star 1 out of 9 planets has proven life.
NASA estimates there are about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy.

The odds seem to be in favour, though this is of course a simplification ;)

the problem is not realy whether or not life will exist somewhere else in the universe. given that the universe is essentially infinite, its almost a statistical certainty that their will be life somewhere. now, that life might be only be at the prokaryote or microbial level. it might only be plankton or something like that, which, although very interesting and all, isnt really what were all after is it? we want spaceships and conversatiosn and ethical debates (and probably because of the ethical debates huge interstellar war).

now that poses a problem. you see, in this infinite universe, which is billions years old our chances of running into another race are really quite slim. we have to be in the right vicinity (of an infinite space remember) to encounter this other race, at the right time in our evolution (ie not treating them as gods, and not ignoring them as nothing important), and at the right time in their evolution (vice versa). the chances of actually a managing this are really slim, even if we manage to create something that makes interstellar travel feasible. so, as much as i would be ecstatic to find something, im not holding my breath

darkside

Oh, a missed chance for a clichéd Star Trek line if I ever saw one.:p
meh, I thought of that one myself

All right, so the general consensus is as I had previously thought. If the universe is so large, then there has to be life--statistically speaking, and assuming the universe contains as many life sustaining elements to make life possible, even at the sub molecular level. Okay, but what happens now? Let's take a step back for moment. We can speculate about the number of planets/asteroids/other possible life sustaining floating clumps all day--but does this match up with the statistical probability of achieving the exact combination of elements needed to sustain life? Perhaps, and maybe not, but the truth is, we don't know. What we do know is what is in our solar system, and out of nine identified planets, only one has any form life whatsoever. Okay, flashback to the 1970s. NASA sends out a probe to investigate Jupiter and beyond--we get a boatload of pictures and scientific information that lets us identify what makes up the rings, etc. Now, thirty years later, the probe is gone...but where to? I may be going out on a limb here (in fact I know I am :)) but how much is really outside of our solar system? So we have pictures from Hubble (et al) that show us there is more, but also remember that whenever we look into space we're looking back in time, and how much of what we see is still there, how much can be attributed to anomalies, how much is actually there? I actually find it easier to believe that we are indeed alone in this universe.

Yeah. But chances are, we're to far away from other life to ever come into contact with it, and if we did it would be so different from life that we are familiar with that we would not recognize it as such.

Around our star 1 out of 9 planets has proven life.
NASA estimates there are about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy.

The odds seem to be in favour, though this is of course a simplification ;)
we haven't been able to adequetly explore 8 of those planets, or any (except for one) of the moons that they posses.

Yea, I hope so. It would be cool.
Woah. I got it wrong. I thought it was Life beyond Death. Heh, my bad.

As for life beyond earth? I'm not too sure. It seems kind of likely but unlikely at the same time. Guess I'll be sitting on the fence.

Woah. I got it wrong. I thought it was Life beyond Death. Heh, my bad.

As for life beyond earth? I'm not too sure. It seems kind of likely but unlikely at the same time. Guess I'll be sitting on the fence.
enjoy the view

Of course there is. It's so improbable that Earth is the only life-bearing planet that if it turns out to be the case, I'll eat a walrus with my left nostril.

Of course there is. It's so improbable that Earth is the only life-bearing planet that if it turns out to be the case, I'll eat a walrus with my left nostril.

Now that would be worth seeing! :p

Around our star 1 out of 9 planets has proven life.
NASA estimates there are about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy.

The odds seem to be in favour, though this is of course a simplification ;)

Supporters of intelligent design argue that Earth is the only planet capable of supporting life (taking into account a whole load of factors). This might be true for life as we know it, but other life forms may be able to survive extreme climates. Even then, I'm unsure how likely it is that life would be intelligent.

So here's a contact story I'd like to see-and since there is so much sci-fi out there and I'm far from an aficionado I'll just let you all tell me about it.

Say there is an intelligent species out there. And their looking through the galaxy kinda the way we do, and they figure out that our star has planets and that one of them is teaming with new life, and they figure-alright, we're x number of light years away, so what we're seeing is x number of years ago so there's an even bet that by now they've developed to the level where they might be able to interact with us. Let's gamble on it and head there.

So as they head towards us, they'll see our development all sped up as they move faster than light towards us, eventually hitting our radio and television broadcast signals and speeding through that. While they watch the Earth fast forward to the now, they have to decide how to react to the people when they get there.

There was a hint of this in Stanislaw Lem's Fiasco, which had other elements in it I dug even if it was as dry as toast made out of crackers and then left in the sun...

Supporters of intelligent design argue that Earth is the only planet capable of supporting life (taking into account a whole load of factors).

How do they do that ? Let us assume there are just as much planets and moons (after all, some scientists still have high hopes to find life on the moon Europa) as there are stars in this galaxy. Considering our solar system itself has about 150 of those that allows for quite a few stars with no planets at all.

They can then prove that 1 : 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 is possible, but 2: 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 is definately out ?
I would be impressed.

How do they do that ? Let us assume there are just as much planets and moons (after all, some scientists still have high hopes to find life on the moon Europa) as there are stars in this galaxy. Considering our solar system itself has about 150 of those that allows for quite a few stars with no planets at all.

They can then prove that 1 : 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 is possible, but 2: 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 is definately out ?
I would be impressed.

In a way, although technically 1 : 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 is given. Another 1 : 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 is slightly more difficult to attain.

These days no-one in the know claims that there are no such things as aliens, so in that respect it has turned full circle.

It's the amount of alien life that has become debateable, some say that it is unlikely that many creatures would have evolved to our level of intelligence.

I personally believe that if the universe is as old as people say it is then there must have been space-travelling species millions of years before us somewhere, and the natural drive would be to terraform planets wherever they venture. Those civilisations would fall, leaving planets full of life, which would then, in time develope intelligence and spawn out again completing the cycle of terraformation, so I think there will be a lot more habitable planets than simple statistics would suggest.

On the other hand, a few people have theorised that space may be filled with intelligences vastly superior to our own. I don't hold much faith by that, I think the principle that has stood on Earth (whereby whenever a group becomes too powerful its neighbours will put it back in its place) will hold equally true in space.

On the other hand, a few people have theorised that space may be filled with intelligences vastly superior to our own. I don't hold much faith by that, I think the principle that has stood on Earth (whereby whenever a group becomes too powerful its neighbours will put it back in its place) will hold equally true in space.

What would a civilization advanced enough to travel between stars fight over? Once you can manipulate energy and matter at will there's honestly nothing left to accomplish.

Why are people so sure of aliens even if there is no proof, but they refuse to think that way about weather there could be a God. Surely the same princible applies.

Uh, who's said I'm sure there are aliens?

Also, alien life doesn't mean omnipotent. Based on all the physical laws we know it's impossible to be omnipotent. Now if you could transcend those laws and do whatever you wanted then you'd be basically a god, but frankly given that humans are prone to cruelty and pointless destruction do you think an intelligent god would allow the universe to remain?

Why are people so sure of aliens even if there is no proof, but they refuse to think that way about weather there could be a God. Surely the same princible applies.

The existance of aliens makes sense, the existance of God doesnt.
Oh, and im agnostic/atheist, i don't say im 100% there is no God, im about 99% sure, however, im 99% sure there is life on other planets. Im not saying their smarter than we are, but hell, something must be out there.

What would a civilization advanced enough to travel between stars fight over? Once you can manipulate energy and matter at will there's honestly nothing left to accomplish.

But that is exactly the thing. It is unlikely that the methods used to travel between stars will ever be as advanced as to create a complete mastery over energy and matter as any scientific breakthrough toward that end will be treated with suspicion by all of the aliens neighbours as an all-powerful neighbour means a no-powerful you.

And there will be no massive sociological evolution away from this kind of thought as the societies of the alien planets will accuse anyone of trying to ferment this kind of evolution as being "unpatriotic" (the concept of patriotism is quite culturally centric, but there will doubtless be something similar).

"Why are you talking of abandoning the militaristic mindset civilian when those bastards from Bazaltaqa are moments away from cracking the Q-bomb!?"

Uh, who's said I'm sure there are aliens?

Also, alien life doesn't mean omnipotent. Based on all the physical laws we know it's impossible to be omnipotent. Now if you could transcend those laws and do whatever you wanted then you'd be basically a god, but frankly given that humans are prone to cruelty and pointless destruction do you think an intelligent god would allow the universe to remain?

Only the christian and islamic god is omnipotent.

Well if the universe is as big as they say it is, then yes there must be life beyond earth. Just not the crazy alien stuff we usually see on tv. They might just be small bacteria sized things that fly around, or are invisible to the human eye.

The existance of aliens makes sense, the existance of God doesnt.
Oh, and im agnostic/atheist, i don't say im 100% there is no God, im about 99% sure, however, im 99% sure there is life on other planets. Im not saying their smarter than we are, but hell, something must be out there.

The existance of life relies on the infinate universe theory, the only way life could possibly exist is there being infinate universes since the big bang because the chances of amino acids and proteins and whatever floating together to make life is so small. So in affect, having life exist twice in one universe is infinity to 1. Not likely is it, how can you be so sure about this but not so sure that something was behind this giant universe suddenly popping into existance?

I believe it's probable that there's life somewhere else in the vastness of the unknown, but whether that's of any consequence is debatable.

The existance of life relies on the infinate universe theory, the only way life could possibly exist is there being infinate universes since the big bang because the chances of amino acids and proteins and whatever floating together to make life is so small. So in affect, having life exist twice in one universe is infinity to 1. Not likely is it, how can you be so sure about this but not so sure that something was behind this giant universe suddenly popping into existance?

Ok, there are billions of galaxies. Each galaxy has billions to trillions of stars. Each star (let's guess) having roughly 6 planets. Each planet having let's say 2 moons (the average for our system is much higher).

1,000,000,000x1,000,000,000,000x18=

One hell of a large number. Now the odds of life appearing on any particular planet or moon may not be overly large, but there's a freakin HUGE universe for them to work in. I'm not even counting asteroids.

The existance of life relies on the infinate universe theory, the only way life could possibly exist is there being infinate universes since the big bang because the chances of amino acids and proteins and whatever floating together to make life is so small. So in affect, having life exist twice in one universe is infinity to 1. Not likely is it, how can you be so sure about this but not so sure that something was behind this giant universe suddenly popping into existance?

Not everyone says the universe is indeed infinite. Because.. we just dnt know.
And i dont mean to sound rude, but half of your post makes no big sense. Space and the "beggining" is still highly debatable, because we have yet no knowledge to know exacly how it happened and what is happening. You can't just come here and say its highly unlikely that life will surge in another planet just because you believe God created us. I dont mean to bash your beliefs, but i do not agree with them. And i seem to find nearly impossible that there is no life outthere, even if its only small bacteria or weird bugs with 34 legs.

The Drake Equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation)

-Used to calculate number of intelligent civilizations capable of communication.

Fermi Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)

-Poses the Question: If there are so many intelligent civilizations in the universe, why have none of them contacted us?

Not everyone says the universe is indeed infinite. Because.. we just dnt know.
And i dont mean to sound rude, but half of your post makes no big sense. Space and the "beggining" is still highly debatable, because we have yet no knowledge to know exacly how it happened and what is happening. You can't just come here and say its highly unlikely that life will surge in another planet just because you believe God created us. I dont mean to bash your beliefs, but i do not agree with them. And i seem to find nearly impossible that there is no life outthere, even if its only small bacteria or weird bugs with 34 legs.

You obviously completely misunderstood my post. Those beliefs are not really what i believe, it has nothing to do with god. Those beliefs only apply if god doesn't exist. So if you don't agree with them then god has to exist. If you do, then you believe in the big bang and all that which is fine.

Why would they?

That'd be like us going out of our way to make first contact with an anthill. You have to remember we're on the galactic rim. We're in the middle of bum fuck nowhere as far as the galaxy is concerned. Species from closer to the core could be millions or billions of years more advanced than us. Aside from morbid curiosity there's no reason for them to speak to us.

Is there life beyond Earth? Of course there is. Is it intelligent life? Hell, I'm still trying to find another intelligent being other than myself on this planet!

The Drake Equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation)

-Used to calculate number of intelligent civilizations capable of communication.

Fermi Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)

-Poses the Question: If there are so many intelligent civilizations in the universe, why have none of them contacted us?

The same reason we haven't contacted them.

And anyway, even if there is Life elsewhere, its unlikely we're ever going to be able to pop over and say hello, which defeats the point alittle.

That'd be like us going out of our way to make first contact with an anthill. You have to remember we're on the galactic rim. We're in the middle of bum fuck nowhere as far as the galaxy is concerned. Species from closer to the core could be millions or billions of years more advanced than us. Aside from morbid curiosity there's no reason for them to speak to us.

Most likely, they're just observing us in the same way that we observe animals in a nature preserve; perhaps the "wilds" of the galaxy are left as such until the species within reach a certain technological level, the species approach extinction, or the needs of galactic civilization necessitate its destruction.

Why can't there be anything more advanced than microbes? If our planet is only ~6 billion years old, that gives other planets in other galaxies an 8 billion year head start. Granted, more complex atoms weren't available in the early universe, but the basic building blocks of life as we know it have existed long before they appeared on earth. Even in a solar system on a parallel timeline to ours, on a planet with similar conditions to ours, life could have easily surpassed us. Consider that if one less or one more meteor had hit our planet, humans would not exist. Who is to say that if a planet similar to ours had one less mass extinction, life that is vastly more intelligent to us could not have arisen?

The same reason we haven't contacted them.
And anyway, even if there is Life elsewhere, its unlikely we're ever going to be able to pop over and say hello, which defeats the point alittle.

Even if we could, we really don't know if they would want to communicate back. Perhaps in a more distant future, they will communicate but right now they're either too primitive or too advanced for us.

The existance of life relies on the infinate universe theory, the only way life could possibly exist is there being infinate universes since the big bang because the chances of amino acids and proteins and whatever floating together to make life is so small. So in affect, having life exist twice in one universe is infinity to 1. Not likely is it, how can you be so sure about this but not so sure that something was behind this giant universe suddenly popping into existance?

Your science is old. Biologists these days say that the chances of all these proteins and shiznit floating in to each other is quite higher than they originally thought, hell, if I recall, I think they even managed to recreate the dawn of life in lab conditions.

Also if there's no faster than light travel then there's simply no reason to interact with us.


Aliens in science fiction are all basically human. I don't just mean the bad makeup effects. I mean they all think like humans, or like splinters of our personalities. They all react more or less like we do, they all have the same basic needs and desires we do. That is very likely not the case.

It's possible to have aliens that exist in ways that we could never understand, they would have no reason to contact us, or they may have no means to contact us. Hell our planet could be rife with alien life that's just too bizarre for us to even notice.

Your science is old. Biologists these days say that the chances of all these proteins and shiznit floating in to each other is quite higher than they originally thought, hell, if I recall, I think they even managed to recreate the dawn of life in lab conditions.

The only thing scientists have created are the conditions in which life could have formed, which was very difficult to do. If scientests created life it would be on every news channel, every paper on earth.

You obviously completely misunderstood my post. Those beliefs are not really what i believe, it has nothing to do with god. Those beliefs only apply if god doesn't exist. So if you don't agree with them then god has to exist. If you do, then you believe in the big bang and all that which is fine.

First of all, sorry to make erroneous judgement about yourself.
I say that, as far as i know, there is no God.
And, i don't have to believe in the big bang theory, i can just believe that cats were here first and they decided to create the universe as it is. However, i do hold belief in the big bang theory, because its the most close to the truth i can find, and that doesnt mean i believe the universe is infinite. According to some, the universe is still in expansion. On my humble opinion, i just rather say "i dont know". Oh and, i still dont get if the big bang theory applies, why is it unlikely to
be life on other planets? I've heard before that life evolving like it did on Earth is highly unprobable, but i've also heard the contraire, and i dont say there is "for sure" inteligent life in the universe (although i think theres a high chance of it)

Fermi Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)

-Poses the Question: If there are so many intelligent civilizations in the universe, why have none of them contacted us?

Again, the 'Greyenivol's Theory of Paranoid Aliens Constantly at Eachother's Thoraces' has the answer:

Introduction to pre-Contact species is seen with as much suspicion as just about anything else an alien power does. If one species makes contact with Earth then the neighbouring powers will fear that that species is herding a planet of slave warriors, or taking advantage of any strategic importance such a location may have.

As long as the status quo is acceptable it is likely that the folks in space will just ignore us untill they are physically incapable of doing so, i.e. when we turn up on their homeworlds bringing embassies of naive peace. What would follow would be years of negotiations at the inter-stellar equivilant of the League of Nations to determine whereabouts our little planet can fit in the Galactic Balance of Power.

Why can't there be anything more advanced than microbes? If our planet is only ~6 billion years old, that gives other planets in other galaxies an 8 billion year head start.-snip-

Actually, that might answer the question. Look at our technological level after 4.5 billion years of development; all of our inventions and civilizations have developed in only 12,000 years of that period and that rate of technological advancement is accelerating. Imagine the technological level of a civilization that is 2 billion or more years more advanced than we are given the trend of accelerating technological development and expansion. They're likely so advanced that they might be unable to contact us or would be unable to communicate on a level simplified enough for us to understand. It would be like a human trying to engage in conversation with an ant.

Either that, or the aliens are younger than we are and are still too primitive to communicate. It took 4,499,988,000 years for civilization to emerge on earth, so that's a lot of time where they would be unable to communicate. A planet where life arose only 200 years later than us would be unable to communicate if their technology developed at the same rate as ours. It's also equally likely that it might develop slower or faster. It's also possible that they are at an identical technological level, meaning that their communication and exploration capabilities are as limited as ours. Trying to locate and contact another civilization with current technology is the equivalent of throwing a bottle in to the ocean and hoping for the message to be found, if it can be understood in the first place...

First of all, sorry to make erroneous judgement about yourself.
I say that, as far as i know, there is no God.
And, i don't have to believe in the big bang theory, i can just believe that cats were here first and they decided to create the universe as it is. However, i do hold belief in the big bang theory, because its the most close to the truth i can find, and that doesnt mean i believe the universe is infinite. According to some, the universe is still in expansion. On my humble opinion, i just rather say "i dont know". Oh and, i still dont get if the big bang theory applies, why is it unlikely to
be life on other planets? I've heard before that life evolving like it did on Earth is highly unprobable, but i've also heard the contraire, and i dont say there is "for sure" inteligent life in the universe (although i think theres a high chance of it)

OK, i said there are infinate univerSES not an infinate universe. That is if you believe in the theory of relativity and the big bang. If you believe that. that means aliens are very unlikely. So you can't believe in both.

But that is exactly the thing. It is unlikely that the methods used to travel between stars will ever be as advanced as to create a complete mastery over energy and matter as any scientific breakthrough toward that end will be treated with suspicion by all of the aliens neighbours as an all-powerful neighbour means a no-powerful you.


Species 1: Dear evil neighbours, we see you have discovered faster-than-light travel. We are not impressed and you will have to come to a hearing of the local United Species. The hearing is scheduled in....uhm....well... 20,000 years, because we need to get all the other species to the meeting too. Do you mind not using your FTL technology until than? :rolleyes:
Species 2: Uhm, if you didnt have FTL tech to begin with, how the hell are you communicating to me?
*poof, little cloud of logic, you get the drift*

Look at it this way.

Roughly 13 billion years ago, by our best estimations, the current universe began. The Earth, again by our best estimations, is 4 to 5 billion years old. So it took a smallish 2nd generation star system to develop intelligent life.

I doubt 1st generation star systems would have harboured any life, since during the period of first generation stars, there were barely any heavy elements in existance (including those necessary for life - as we know it).

Having said that, life can do a lot within a few million years. And during certain periods, growth can become exponential (Hooke's Law, etc). So really, if there is life out there, it could be greatly more advanced than us.

So assume this other civilisation reaches a point where they have vast, consolidated supplies of fuel, and perfectly sustainable deep-space transports; which they use to wander space. The length of time it would take for them to identify and reach another intelligent civilisation would be immense. But with the right tools, and nothing else left to do, why not go for it? I'm sure when we reach that point, we will take the plunge and send out colonisation vessels whose crews will not expect to set foot on another planet (but they will expect their great great great great grandchildren to set foot on one).

And so it is for us, we cannot expect to meet other life forms in our lifetimes, but certainly humans will find life eventually. Even if it takes until the end of this universal expansion/contraction. ;)

Aliens in science fiction are all basically human. I don't just mean the bad makeup effects. I mean they all think like humans, or like splinters of our personalities. They all react more or less like we do, they all have the same basic needs and desires we do. That is very likely not the case.

It's possible to have aliens that exist in ways that we could never understand, they would have no reason to contact us, or they may have no means to contact us. Hell our planet could be rife with alien life that's just too bizarre for us to even notice.

I don't know... I think that it is quite likely that there is a certain amount of divergence in terms of intelligence present in the universe. For instance, if we consider the circumstances in which humans evolved. We are intelligent, omnivorous pack-animals with the ability to manipulate, if we were not any of these things a genus of homo that was these things would have arrived and would have out-competed us.

If we weren't intellegent, well, we wouldn't be here talking. If we weren't imaginitive with our diets we would have been condemned to some kind of dietary niche, and our intellects would be unneeded. And if we were not social, we never would have co-operated enough to achieve what we did. If we didn't have hands to manipulate, we also would be pretty useless. So assuming that alien worlds are not insanely different to ours then we can expect a similar basic make-up of alien psyches.

And, I'm sorry to keep bringing up the 'Greyenivol's Theory of Paranoid Aliens Constantly at Eachother's Thoraces', but if any creature that was outside of the average psychological make-up would be feared and instanted subdued by a temporary coalition of concerned neighbours.

OK, i said there are infinate univerSES not an infinate universe. That is if you believe in the theory of relativity and the big bang. If you believe that means aliens are very unlikely. So you can't believe in both.

I mention the big bang as the theory i hold more dearly. Its the one that makes the most sense.

About infinite universes, where you saw that? I actually read something about several "universes" not long ago, but, i want to see your point.

Because, you see, the theory of relativity doesnt apply directly to the fact that there are "several universes", neither the big bang. I guess.

Oh and, i believe it is *possible* to travel faster than light, but that, i think no alien has achieved xD

It's a BIG universe. I'm sure there is life out there. As for why they haven't contacted us, well, it's a BIG universe. Also, anyone advanced enough to travel anywhere farther than the nearest stars in a reasonable amount of time, may not realize that there's intellegent life down here! They might see us as just another type of primate.

of course there is life. Its too big a place for there not to be something. Mathematically speaking the chances are pretty good.

Newsflash einsteins: What if god WAS an alien. I see a bit of talk about panspermia (the seeding of planets with life), and of trophic differences (aliens so intelligent they seem as gods to wee humans). What about the next step in that line of reasoning: That the creator god spoken of in all major religions was, in fact, an extraterrestrial being that seeded this planet and cultivated it's lifeforms, creating us "in his image" (ie humanoid free willed sensory carbon based lifeform).

IT's no less ludicrous than transubstantiation, to be sure.

I think that there is life out there. I don't think that there is any other life in this solar system, and I seriously doubt that we will deveop interstelar travel in my lifetime, so who gives a damn. If alien invaders come to earth, we'll send 'em to Mexico or Cuba like we do with all the other aliens.:p

But what I don't get is how everyone is so sure that the only way to sustain life is to have the same conditions we have. What prevents other life forms from having different things that they need? Did it occur to anyone that perhaps we evolved to need the things we need because that's what's available? And if that's so, what would stop a being from a planet where the atmosphere is made up of carbon monoxide?

Also, what would be the point in contacting other life forms? Chances are that they won't be able to understand us. Think trying to talk to a person who only speaks one of the little-known dialects of Chinese, with both of your toungs cut off.

Also, i believe there might be alien civilizations capable of traveling the universe, just as easily as we travel throughout the Earth, this, assuming there are intelligent forms out there.
Just as we, in many many years from now will be able to space travel more easily. However, space is huge, incredibly huge, and just because we can easily travel through it, doesnt mean we can get to all the neighbooring stars, since, they are far, far apart. It would come up to speed then, and that, im not even going to bother to think how that will evolve.

I personally think that it would be very arrogant of us to assume that we are the only intelligent life in the large, large, universe. Even though certain things had to be exact for life as we know it to be on Earth, the thought that we are the ONLY ones is, as I said, an arrogant presumption.


Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.--Douglas Adams


Now, life elsewhere may not be anything like we think it is (little green men and all that jazz). Most scientists automatically assume that alien life would have to follow the same laws of physics and science and such that we do; they think that aliens would be able to intercept and understand radio signals we've been sending out for decades; they think that intelligent life would be somewhat similar to us as far as biology goes. I mean, for all we know, perhaps a certain alien species can only see infrared signals or something, not radio waves. :p


"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that it hasn't come here."--Calvin and Hobbes while surveying a bunch of discarded rubbish in the middle of a forest.

Newsflash einsteins: What if god WAS an alien. I see a bit of talk about panspermia (the seeding of planets with life), and of trophic differences (aliens so intelligent they seem as gods to wee humans). What about the next step in that line of reasoning: That the creator god spoken of in all major religions was, in fact, an extraterrestrial being that seeded this planet and cultivated it's lifeforms, creating us "in his image" (ie humanoid free willed sensory carbon based lifeform).

IT's no less ludicrous than transubstantiation, to be sure.

Come on dude.

God is a derived term, basically imagined by early humans. And besides, the idea of human life being 'seeded' is rubbish, we evolved from apes. Unless the seeding process includes millions of years of evolution, in which the final outcome is subjective to the conditions of the period of change.

Species 1: Dear evil neighbours, we see you have discovered faster-than-light travel. We are not impressed and you will have to come to a hearing of the local United Species. The hearing is scheduled in....uhm....well... 20,000 years, because we need to get all the other species to the meeting too. Do you mind not using your FTL technology until than? :rolleyes:
Species 2: Uhm, if you didnt have FTL tech to begin with, how the hell are you communicating to me?
*poof, little cloud of logic, you get the drift*

Well, no. Obviously the ability to travel faster than light would exist. I am refering to the improvement of that technology. To use a metaphor, present FTL technology compares to row-boats or sailing ships, and aliens are suspicious of anyone trying to improve to the level of speedboats or aircraft carriers - the reasoning would be that if one power is to have it then they all want it, if they cannot all have it, then no-one can have it.

It's petty I know, but exo-psychological divergance breeds pettiness and the THEORY STAYS STRONG!

Newsflash einsteins: What if god WAS an alien. I see a bit of talk about panspermia (the seeding of planets with life), and of trophic differences (aliens so intelligent they seem as gods to wee humans). What about the next step in that line of reasoning: That the creator god spoken of in all major religions was, in fact, an extraterrestrial being that seeded this planet and cultivated it's lifeforms, creating us "in his image" (ie humanoid free willed sensory carbon based lifeform).

IT's no less ludicrous than transubstantiation, to be sure.

Have you ever read "Chariot's of the Gods"?

Come on dude.

God is a derived term, basically imagined by early humans. And besides, the idea of human life being 'seeded' is rubbish, we evolved from apes. Unless the seeding process includes millions of years of evolution, in which the final outcome is subjective to the conditions of the period of change.

*hiss* Darwinians...

Unless the seeding process includes millions of years of evolution, in which the final outcome is subjective to the conditions of the period of change.

That's exactly what I was implying, hence the creator had to cultivate us (ie, interceed on evolution during key points in order to create the final product)

That's exactly what I was implying, hence the creator had to cultivate us (ie, interceed on evolution during key points in order to create the final product)



Of course! We were created by hyper-intelligent white mice, assisted by dolphins, to be lab rats in their experiment to find the answer to the Ultimate Question, since a big computer said it was 42. :p


/me loves DNA

Newsflash einsteins: What if god WAS an alien. I see a bit of talk about panspermia (the seeding of planets with life), and of trophic differences (aliens so intelligent they seem as gods to wee humans). What about the next step in that line of reasoning: That the creator god spoken of in all major religions was, in fact, an extraterrestrial being that seeded this planet and cultivated it's lifeforms, creating us "in his image" (ie humanoid free willed sensory carbon based lifeform).

IT's no less ludicrous than transubstantiation, to be sure.

The thing is, that may explain OUR existence, but it does nothing to explain the origin of the aliens. It's as equally unsubstantiatable (is that even a word?) as our earthly religions, but our religions and/or science at least attempt to explain origin of the universe.
Not to mention the fossil record, the problems associated with interstellar travel, and the complete lack of motives on their part...

The thing is, that may explain OUR existence, but it does nothing to explain the origin of the aliens. It's as equally unsubstantiatable (is that even a word?) as our earthly religions, but our religions and/or science at least attempt to explain origin of the universe.
Not to mention the fossil record, the problems associated with interstellar travel, and the complete lack of motives on their part...

The fossil record wouldn't invalidate this theory, rather standing on it's own merit... however it would explain the cambrian explosion, in which a formerly dead planet literally exploded with life almost overnight (in a geological timeline type of sense).

As far as the origins of the aliens, perhaps they were seeded by a yet older race. To me, the idea of life just springing willy nilly from dead matter is ludicrous. That's what we call "spontaneous generation", and that was disproved centuries ago. Life comes from other life.

As far as the origins of the aliens, perhaps they were seeded by a yet older race. To me, the idea of life just springing willy nilly from dead matter is ludicrous. That's what we call "spontaneous generation", and that was disproved centuries ago. Life comes from other life.

Then how did the first life start ?

If you take the evolutionary standpoint it is mathmaticaly imposible that life developed in this planet no matter howmany quadrillions of years you make the earth, but were here. the likeyness of life evolving on other rocks in space is very little. And if you take the standpoint that we were created and placed on this lump of dust by a higher being, well depending on his motives he may or may not have put life elsewere. I'm going with, we're in a very lonely universe :headbang:

Our planet is 4.5 billion years old, not ~6 billion.

The Drake equation is useless because we don't have any values for the parameters. You could get thousands or even millions of advanced civilizations or just us on Earth. It was a nice idea but you could get any number by putting in different values. Yes the universe would be a huge waste of space if we were the only life in it and due to the size of it there is probably life elsewhere, but we haven't found it yet and it probably won't be common or close to us.

It's nearly impossible to get from one star to another with our level of tech (using chemical rockets) and we don't have any proven way of going FTL. But as the man was said, "the difficult we can do today, the impossible just takes a little longer." So maybe we will someday find a loophole (like a plothole powered drive :p ) that will let us change the rules and do the impossible.

Then how did the first life start ?

I posit, without evidence or real explanation (as these would be quite hard to come by), that life has always existed, in one form or another, throughout time reaching back to the big bang and possibly beyond (depending on what form of Cosmism you believe, the Single Big Bang or the Bang/Crunch cycle). For that matter, I see life as a continuum, from the non-alive (atoms) to the very alive (people). Self replicating forms get more complex over time, owning the the second law of thermodynamics (which doesn't state that things break down over time, as many suggest, but that energy overall tends to pool in different areas than the main cycle, hence complexity rather than stagnant order)

there probably is but, we don't posses the technology to visit other capable planets tht support life, They are just to far away. Maybe in the distant future, things will change. Call me a optimist, but I always wished the future would be kinda like from the star trek series. hehe.

Back on the main topic, I'd say there are three reasons that we haven't seen life yet (The Fermi paradox: If intelligent life exists our there, why haven't we seen it yet?).

First off, intelligent species would only be aware of our presence on two conditions:
1) They are within a bubble of 60-10,000 Lightyears distant
2) They are actually listening to radio transmissions or are actively searching for complex life forms

Second, they would have to interpret our signals as of intelligent origin (questionable at best)

Thirdly... if you were an alien, having watched some of our movies on what happens to aliens that come to earth... would YOU show up?

How do they do that ? Let us assume there are just as much planets and moons (after all, some scientists still have high hopes to find life on the moon Europa) as there are stars in this galaxy. Considering our solar system itself has about 150 of those that allows for quite a few stars with no planets at all.

They can then prove that 1 : 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 is possible, but 2: 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 is definately out ?
I would be impressed.

There's a load of factors that some guy listed off in a book I read. I'm not a 100% supporter of the intelligent design theory myself, but I do think ET life would be scarce.

You have to take into account:


Galaxy Type
Position Of A planet in a solar system
size of planet
orbit of planet
type of star


And a load of other stuff.

The overriding argument is that life exists but not as we know it.

Back on the main topic, I'd say there are three reasons that we haven't seen life yet (The Fermi paradox: If intelligent life exists our there, why haven't we seen it yet?).

First off, intelligent species would only be aware of our presence on two conditions:
1) They are within a bubble of 60-10,000 Lightyears distant
2) They are actually listening to radio transmissions or are actively searching for complex life forms

Second, they would have to interpret our signals as of intelligent origin (questionable at best)

Thirdly... if you were an alien, having watched some of our movies on what happens to aliens that come to earth... would YOU show up?

You forgot number four: they are capable of contacting us. Despite all the warpdrives, hyper- and subspace engines, stargates and the dozens of other fancy things science fiction has suggested, devising something that would actually work in real life may be impossible. And radiowaves only move at the speed of light...

You forgot number four: they are capable of contacting us. Despite all the warpdrives, hyper- and subspace engines, stargates and the dozens of other fancy things science fiction has suggested, devising something that would actually work in real life may be impossible. And radiowaves only move at the speed of light...

Ah yes, I did, didn't I?

The fact of the matter is that FTL travel would seem to be outside the realm of physical possibilities in this universe. However, a sufficently advanced race might be able to achieve relativistic velocities (speeds within close proximity of the speed of light), in which time dialates to such a point that the trip would take a subjective amount of months or years, rather than centuries. However, any race that was that advanced, comming to our little baby of a species, would truly be god-like in comparison to humans in our current state... which then begs the question "why would they bother visiting ants?"

I just hope when they find us they don't load us all up and sell us to zoos around the galaxy....

Supporters of intelligent design argue that Earth is the only planet capable of supporting life (taking into account a whole load of factors). This might be true for life as we know it, but other life forms may be able to survive extreme climates. Even then, I'm unsure how likely it is that life would be intelligent.

Yeah, but who believes those crazies? Even if a God did create the Universe, how arrogant are we to force fit this God's creation into our own primative understanding? Its hogwash I tell you! Hogwash!

The existance of life relies on the infinate universe theory, the only way life could possibly exist is there being infinate universes since the big bang because the chances of amino acids and proteins and whatever floating together to make life is so small. So in affect, having life exist twice in one universe is infinity to 1. Not likely is it, how can you be so sure about this but not so sure that something was behind this giant universe suddenly popping into existance?

Well, you can't really say "from infinity to 1" because infinity includes 1 and all points either side of it. Infinity isn't a number, like one is a number. Infinity is a divine-mathimatical concept.

As for what occurred right before the "big bang", I would say it was the big "inhale". Now think of the "big bang" as the big "exhale", and you get an infinite continuum/wave/cycle of inhale/exhale. If there is a name for this theory, I don't know it. It came to me in meditation.

As for what occurred right before the "big bang", I would say it was the big "inhale". Now think of the "big bang" as the big "exhale", and you get an infinite continuum/wave/cycle of inhale/exhale. If there is a name for this theory, I don't know it. It came to me in meditation.

The Oscillatory Universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillatory_universe)

The Drake Equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation)

-Used to calculate number of intelligent civilizations capable of communication.

Fermi Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)

-Poses the Question: If there are so many intelligent civilizations in the universe, why have none of them contacted us?

Because we are at the bottom of their "to do" list after all the other civs? I don't think its that improbable. Why hasn't Brad Pitt contacted me? I am pretty sure he exists. I read about him on the internet. And he is certainly capable of contact. I think he contacted Angelina Jolie right narly! But if he exists, why hasn't he called me???

Newsflash einsteins: What if god WAS an alien. I see a bit of talk about panspermia (the seeding of planets with life), and of trophic differences (aliens so intelligent they seem as gods to wee humans). What about the next step in that line of reasoning: That the creator god spoken of in all major religions was, in fact, an extraterrestrial being that seeded this planet and cultivated it's lifeforms, creating us "in his image" (ie humanoid free willed sensory carbon based lifeform).

IT's no less ludicrous than transubstantiation, to be sure.

Actually, this is my preferred theory, but its so hard to talk about openly because people are unwilling to consider it. What was the name of that guy that wrote all those books about the aliens and the ancient sumerians. Help me out here. These are really good books. Dang its been 20 years since I read them...

Because we are at the bottom of their "to do" list after all the other civs? I don't think its that improbable. Why hasn't Brad Pitt contacted me? I am pretty sure he exists. I read about him on the internet. And he is certainly capable of contact. I think he contacted Angelina Jolie right narly! But if he exists, why hasn't he called me???

That's always what I thought; most other civilizations are just so advanced that they couldn't understand us if they wanted too...and there are probably a lot higher priorities for them than some primitive, single-planet species that launches the occasional probe once every few years.

A planet where sentient life arose even 2,000 years earlier than ours, if it survived, would likely be exponentially more advanced to the point of mutual intelligibility....imagine if that life were 100,000, 1 million, or even 1 billion years ahead of us. Either that, or they are simply not advanced enough and we are the most advanced civilization in the backwaters of the Milky Way...even if another civilization is only 120 or so years behind us, they don't have the capability to communicate.

I'd be more surprised to find that life did not exist beyond Earth than to find out it did.


Exactly how I feel. It's foolish to believe that with all the other galaxies and planets out their that the odds that their is no other life forms out there is just stupid.

In trying to establish how much life (or, indeed, intelligent life) there is out there, we're a bit restricted by the fact that we only have a reasonable amount of information of 1 out of a total of 1 planets with provable life.

This is why discovering firm proof of life (past, or present) on Mars would be a bonus, although there are problems if we don't find life, because we don't know if it's actually "1 for 2" or just that we haven't looked in the right places yet.

Ditto with Europa/etc. Find life (basic, in-potentia, even, if we're very (un) lucky some form of honest-to-goodness civilisation or sign of there having been one, though I must add that I'm adding that last one only as an outying possibility, by no means a reasonable probabiity ;)) and we can look at it and we might know a little bit more about how much it permeates at least the local neighbourhood.

For example, if life-like 'stuff' is found out on Mars (even/especially if it bears little, if any, resemblence to the life we see here on Earth) then analysis can be made to see if there is a possible common origin, and panspermia/interplanatary seeding theories can be refined, as can the sponteneity-of-life/inevitable-that-it-arises points of view.


When it comes to the Fermi paradox, there are several answers:
It has been around 100 years since we started making "Hello, we're intelligent (well, mostly, if you ignore the recent spate of Reality TV) beings" signals. Before this time, we'd have had to be 'stumbled over' by alien explorers. Who is to say that anyone has been close enough in range, since then, to have detected and responded?
You don't have to be very pessamistic to believe that we as a race might not survive much longer, for a variety of reasons (Yellowstone erupting, asteroid strike, human-caused runaway environmental crises, pandemics of some pathogen, 3rd World War). Perhaps no-one out there has lasted very long, either.
A tendency (from bad experiences or just general paranoia) for isolationism/introversion by any intelligent and potentially-interstellar races out there, or just caution by those that do wander around.
There's a kind of Prime Directive employed by the League of Star Systems and we're generally out-of-bounds.
The predominant forms of life might be unrecognisable to us, and thus we are unrecognisable to them. For all we know, small yellow suns with a rocky planet at (by our measurement) 1AU radius isn't where anybody would expect to find life. Even if they did wander by, they might have already visited Jupiter and it's moons, said hello to the Europans or left monoliths/stargates/whatever there for the intelligent descendants of the Europan microbes to discover and utilise and wandered off to the next system with Jovian planets with ice moons.


Essentially, I would imagine that there'd be plenty of life out there. A decent proportion (I'm talking maybe 1 in a 1000, but that's a complete stab in the dark, it could be inevitable among worlds developing multicellular/equivalent life-forms or one in a billion out of the billion billion worlds out there... the point still stands) of life-developing planets might well have developed intelligent species comparable/superior to us over a given time-span, but their peak of civilisation (from the point they could communicate/visit with such as us to the point they were no longer willing/able to) could have happened a billion years ago, or not happen for a billion more. Or be happening right now but on the other side of the galaxy and their signals won't get here for a several centuries/our signals won't reach them for centuries (by which time us or them might no longer be listening). Or they aren't bothered. Or they are scared. Or they are cautions. Or they are amongst us (but I doubt most of the usual suspects are from an intelligent alien race). Or they employ laser communication rather than radio and we mutually miss each other's signals by not being receptive to the right things. Or they only make use of the Ancients' wormhole technologies and haven't come here yet. Or... or... or... any number of other reasons.

Does it exist? I've heard some people claim that the universe is so vast its impossible that the only life to develop anywhere would be on Earth. Howevere, Earth is the only planet where life definitely exists in our solar system so far (whether or not it is enjoyable is entirely different subject). So, does other life exist in the universe?
If the universe is infinite, then it is virtually a mathematical certainty. We know that life is possible (see us) under the right circumstances; however, we don't know how probable those circumstances are. But in an infinite set, there will be duplicates no matter how low the probability.

I don't have a life on Earth, why should I have a life beyond?