NationStates Jolt Archive

Nicolas Sarkozy, the far right french vice-prime-minister, is trying to pass a new immigration law, drestroying even more fundamental rights like the right to have a family life, the rights of french-immigrant couples, nearly suppressing political asylum, and organising the "brain leak" by taking the more talented and diplomed citizen of poor countries into our country, while kicking back all the other ones.

At the same time, the ban (that we struggled to obtain last year) on kicking from France children, teens and their parents will expire on June, 30th.

But Resistance against the new inhuman immigration laws is started !

Nearly 40 000 french citizen signed the "We take them under our protection" petition, declaring this will break the law to protect those illegal immigrants, even at the risk of as much as 5 years of jail.

Last thursday, 170 elected representatives, most from the french communist party (PCF), and some from the Greens (les Verts) and Soical-democrats (PS), officially became "republican godmother/godfather" (a french way for non-believers to have/become "godmother" and "godfather") of 170 illegal immigrants who are studying in France (at any school level, from primary to university). They swore to break the anti-immigration law to protect them, if needed. The ceremony was presided by Hervé Bramy, President of the Seine-Saint-Denis, a "département" (local geographical division, there are about 100 in France) in Paris' suburbs.

A few weeks ago, the Municipal Council of Paris, under a proposition of its PCF members, voted an "oath" asking to all its services to (illegally) provide support to and hide illegal immigrant kids and teens, and their parents.

It's good to see that french people are ready to take risks to protect the weak. It's good to see that many won't accept inhuman laws, and disobey to them. Let's see how this governement react to this...

Good for France.

Resistance on mates, and good luck.

Well, good luck to the French Government.

As long as there is one burning car in France, it is obvious that there are too many 'Frenchmen' who are undesirable troublemakers.

Well, good luck to the French peoples.

As long as there is one burning car in France, it is obvious that too many French politicians are undesirable troublemakers.

Well, good luck to the French peoples.

As long as there is one burning car in France, it is obvious that too many French politicians are undesirable troublemakers.

Ah guess that's why the French people elected a Right Wing Government...

Ah guess that's why the French people elected a Right Wing Government...Perhaps they either weren't bright enough to forsee the blithering bunch's inability to deal rationally with the situation, or perhaps they really fancy those burning cars?

Perhaps the rightwing voters are simply undesirable troublemakers?

It's a bit of a hen vs. egg discussion, init? Whose responsible; the ones who provoked the situation, or the ones who stood up to the provocateurs?

Perhaps they either weren't bright enough to forsee the blithering bunch's inability to deal rationally with the situation, or perhaps they really fancy those burning cars?

Perhaps the rightwing voters are simply undesirable troublemakers?

It's a bit of a hen vs. egg discussion, init? Whose responsible; the ones who provoked the situation, or the ones who stood up to the provocateurs?

We DO know what is responsible behaviour.
And that is plain and simple: obeying the authority of the duely elected Government of the French Republic.

And it definetely aint what happened quite recently....
http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_12_05/cover.html

Ah guess that's why the French people elected a Right Wing Government...

If you look at the 2002 elections, you would see it was a complete fiasco, and that french people never really elected a right wing governement. We chose the lesser evil, that's all.

And all elections done since (several times in 2004, and a referendum in 2005) showed that french people don't support this governement. The only sane and responsible attitude for them would have been to resign, but they chose to impose their will by force.

We DO know what is responsible behaviour.
And that is plain and simple: obeying the authority of the duely elected Government of the French Republic.We'll have to agree to disagree on that. Authority neither makes you right, nor responsible - nor does blind obediance.

As long as there's people in France that shares that opinion, yours is utopian & utterly useless.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. Authority neither makes you right, nor responsible - nor does blind obediance.

As long as there's people in France that shares that opinion, yours is utopian & utterly useless.

Bulldust.

Law and Order - or Treason.

We DO know what is responsible behaviour.
And that is plain and simple: obeying the authority of the duely elected Government of the French Republic.

The Governement authority is valid only as long they respect three principles: 1/ the Constitution 2/ the laws 3/ the will of the people.

They don't respect any of them. They fail to fulfill the DUTIES they have to fulfill according to the Constitution of the French Republic: "any human being, who because of his age, physical or mental healthstate, or of the economical situation, cannot obtain a work is ENTITLED to receive from the society decent means of existance". The Governement utterly fails to fullfill this duty.

They fail to respect the laws, on a daily basis. Just two examples: there is a law in France, called the SRU law, forcing all cities of more than 5000 inhabitants to build at least 20% of "social housing". The cities ruled by right-wing mayor (among woth the city of Neuilly, of which Sarkozy was the mayor before becoming minister) completly fail to respect this (in Neuilly, it's around 2% of "social housing"). The second example is that the police fails to respect its deontologic code. This Sarkozy is in power, the IGS (police overseen the police) noticed a yearly 20% increase of "bavures", that is, when policemen illegally abuse of violence. Inhabitants who are a bit too much brown of skin get harrassed by the police, by daily ID checks. I head so many horror stories, about kids 12 years old whom the police throw the content of schoolbag on the wet street, just to check if they have no weapon... and so on.

They fail to respect the will of the people, by staying in power despite 4 major electoral defeats, and imposing laws that all polls show an overwhemling (above 60%) opposition. Even for the CPE, opposed by nearly 70% of the population, it took 3 months of struggle, and 2 times 3 millions of people in street, to have them step back.

So the Governement utterly failed to respect his part of the social contract. By doing so, its authority is void.

Bulldust.

Law and Order - or Treason.


Treason, the crime for putting what is just before nationlism seems to be the current drffinition!!

Bulldust.

Law and Order - or Treason.To resist is our duty when injustice is law.

Bulldust.

Law and Order - or Treason.

Who is being a traitor ? People who stick to the values, principles, motto and Constitution of a country, or those who utterly refuse to respect them ?

I just saw on the news new rioting has started in Clichy-sous-bois and Montfermeil, I don't know a lot abou it yet, but it seems this time, the youths are targeting police vehicles and police stations rather than random targets. I'm not sure, I just saw the images of smashed police station windows and burning copcars and a voice that said rioting had begun in Paris banlieus.
So, how about these new riots? anyone have any information?

So, how about these new riots? anyone have any information?Nope, but if I had to guess, I'd say its prolly to do with a rather impressive number of French coppers are little more than bonehead thugs in uniforms.

Seems that the riots aren't that NEW!!

Its the same old story, people feeling oppressed and decied that by bomding public buildings that feeling will go away.

How foolish, more death for the sake of it!!

Nope, but if I had to guess, I'd say its prolly to do with a rather impressive number of French coppers are little more than bonehead thugs in uniforms.

Well, I guess you can leave the French part out, cops in general are mostly like that.

Nope, but if I had to guess, I'd say its prolly to do with a rather impressive number of French coppers are little more than bonehead thugs in uniforms.


That too! Giving protesters a large direction (a large body of policemen) in which to vent their anger is neve wise.

Seems that the riots aren't that NEW!!

Its the same old story, people feeling oppressed and decied that by bomding public buildings that feeling will go away.

How foolish, more death for the sake of it!!

If you're being oppressed, what better thing can you do than fight back?
Of course, burning people's cars at radnom isn't the solution, but when they are really targetting police, well, then it's a rather good thing: people standing up for themselves!

If you're being oppressed, what better thing can you do than fight back?
Of course, burning people's cars at radnom isn't the solution, but when they are really targetting police, well, then it's a rather good thing: people standing up for themselves!


Call me a hippie, but violence gives the Government cause to say you need repressing, ie passing of further laws to infringe your rights....thus it continues.

I know I'm going to be damn unpopular for this, but good for Sarkozy.

Immigration in France has proved to be catastrophic, why should Sarkozy not alter the procedure to ensure that France acquires only those immigrants who will contribute something tangible, beyond "cultural enrichment", to France?

Call me a hippie, but violence gives the Government cause to say you need repressing, ie passing of further laws to infringe your rights....thus it continues.

I agree completely, that's why I wasn't a big fan of the riots earlier this year, but when the government is actually oppressing you, you can't just sit back and let them take away your rights! You have to do something, you have to fight back.

EDIT: sorry, I just switched user

I agree completely, that's why I wasn't a big fan of the riots earlier this year, but when the government is actually oppressing you, you can't just sit back and let them take away your rights! You have to do something, you have to fight back.

Fight yes, i'll meet you half way on that one!! But violece has raley lead to the goals that it intended to reach.

EDIT: sorry, I just switched user[/QUOTE]

No prods, i just assumed you were bi-polar!! ;)

La Lutte Continue!

A lot of people here do not seem to grasp the character of the French Republic. Which, by my understanding, is very different from the political culture of the Anglo-Saxon UK and USA.

Firstly, there is no such concept in France that the Government is inherently just. In the UK/US, we are inclined to accept the will of the Government when it is against us because we fear the repercussions of having a weak government. In France, inspired by the revolutions, there is no such opinion in France, where it is truly believed that Government exists FOR the people, and if the Government does not comply with Popular Will then Popular Will is completely entitled to bypass the Government.

Also, the French Republic has ideological commitments to immigration. Republicanism states that France is inclusive, and that instead of following feudalistic definations of nationality, anyone who lives in France, speaks French, engages in French culture, IS French, and that no destinctions should be made by the Government on their status as Frenchmen/women.

These fundamentals are of utmost importance to the French, and a sizeable portion are unwilling to let the precariously elected Government erode them.

I have a really bad feeling about Sarkozy, I think he's a genuinely unpleasant chap.

France may be in for very dark days if he becomes president, but revolution is never far away to end them.

The rioters are the dispossessed, and I think France's government does not understand the extent to which the immigrants and the children, the grandchildren, and great grandchildren of immigrants are discriminated against for not looking 'French' by the French police, but also the lack of social welfare for the immigrants, who consider themselves French like the descendants of immigrants in France, but not treated like French people, treated like outsiders.

They also don't like the fact that their frustrations at not being treated equally is being claimed as islamic extremism.

That's bollocks, but they may start becoming more extreme if their voices and anger are not heard.

Of course, Sarkozy knows all this, but he does not give a shit.

But the French people will hold him to account.

At least, that is my hope.

I just saw on the news new rioting has started in Clichy-sous-bois and Montfermeil, I don't know a lot abou it yet, but it seems this time, the youths are targeting police vehicles and police stations rather than random targets. I'm not sure, I just saw the images of smashed police station windows and burning copcars and a voice that said rioting had begun in Paris banlieus.
So, how about these new riots? anyone have any information?

The new riots started after policemen violently arrested a mentally retared guy, and harmed his mother who tried to protect him. The neighbours were shocked by this scene, and the youth started to attack the police.

But it seems to be over... for now. As long as the core problems (misery, discriminations, disbanding of public services, police violence, lack of respect from the authorities, ...) will not be solved, riots will start at every spark... and no one can predict how strong the next ones will be.

Immigration in France has proved to be catastrophic

Immigration was one of the most positive things that happened to France. It granted us manpower when we needed to rebuild the country after WW2, and nowadays, it's compensating partly the demographic pressure of our older and older population. It's also a source of cultural and intelectual variety.

The problem is not with immigration. It's with politican using immigration as an alibi to reduce freedoms, and as a strawman to terrify people and gain their vote this way. The problem is with parking immigrants in poor suburbs, because we consider them only as a workpower, not as human beings.

Firstly, there is no such concept in France that the Government is inherently just. In the UK/US, we are inclined to accept the will of the Government when it is against us because we fear the repercussions of having a weak government. In France, inspired by the revolutions, there is no such opinion in France, where it is truly believed that Government exists FOR the people, and if the Government does not comply with Popular Will then Popular Will is completely entitled to bypass the Government.

That's true. The first article of our Constituion says: "France is a democratic and social republic. Its principle is: governement of the people, by the people, for the people." The notion of "social contract" between the governement and the people, coming directly from Rousseau and Enlightenement, is deeply anchored in our culture.

Also remember that the last article of the Constitution of the First Republic was: "If the governement violates the rights of the people, then insurection is, for the people as a whole and for every single of its parts, the most sacred of the rights, and the most fundamental of the duties". That's the roots of french democracy.

Various governements and regimes since the Revolution tried to undermine it, more or less directly and violently. But we are still a people not accepting anything from our governement, and ready to stand up for values and ideals that are more fundemantal that the laws a governement can pass.

I have a really bad feeling about Sarkozy, I think he's a genuinely unpleasant chap.

France may be in for very dark days if he becomes president, but revolution is never far away to end them.

You are right about Sarkozy... I'm not that sure about a revolution, saddly. French people is a rebellious people, but the power of the massmedia is very strong... and the hopelessness of people is strong, too. Many stopped to believe that a "better world" is possible, many stopped to believe in everything related to politics... the apathy is real, and the media do their best to foster it.

The rioters are the dispossessed, and I think France's government does not understand the extent to which the immigrants and the children, the grandchildren, and great grandchildren of immigrants are discriminated against for not looking 'French' by the French police, but also the lack of social welfare for the immigrants, who consider themselves French like the descendants of immigrants in France, but not treated like French people, treated like outsiders.

They also don't like the fact that their frustrations at not being treated equally is being claimed as islamic extremism.

That's bollocks, but they may start becoming more extreme if their voices and anger are not heard.

Of course, Sarkozy knows all this, but he does not give a shit.

That's exactly the situation.

But the French people will hold him to account. At least, that is my hope.

I hope too... but 2007 elections look bleak. Sarkozy will be the candidate of the right, and the candidate of the main "left" party is likely to be Ségolène Royale, a woman that openly supports Blair and his policies in all domains... Given that, many people from the left will not vote. And even if Ségolène is Royale, elected, it will be just slightly less worse than with Sarkozy.

There is hope remaining: the left of left is trying to unite. It's hard, but if they manage to do it, and to present a single, trustable candidate at the left of Ségolène Royale, this candidate as a chance to win. A small one. But one year before the 2005 referendum on the neoliberal EU "Constituion", no one believed the "NO" had the slightest chance to win. And we did win, by 54%.

The other hope would be for the PS to chose a candidate more to the left... but I don't have much faith in that.

Bulldust.

Law and Order - or Treason.
Bullshit.

So says a proud American Revolutionary (and anti-euphemismist). You are not only grossly over-simplifying, you are also drawing a false dichotomy. Those are not the only options. and the OP is not positing a choice between them.

Years back, New York City passed an ordinance requiring the police to chase homeless people out of bus terminals and train stations, where they were used to sleeping. The law went into effect in January, when the temperatures were well below freezing. The police refused to enforce the law because it was cruel. They were right. The public (who supposedly feared the homeless) supported the police. The City changed the law to something less brutal. It's not treason. It's free citizens exercising their civil liberties.

Vive la Resistance.