NationStates Jolt Archive

Does criticizing America ever get boring to you people? I know some repetitive things like that don't get boring to me; I'm always the life of the party when I start ripping on Michael Jackson because I'm soo original.

What I'm even doing right now is stooping down to the flame-war level of whiny, leftist Fahrenheit 9/11 Political Scholars and insane right-wing bomb throwers by making this thread.

But wow, maybe instead of looking at America, we could look at..Africa? You know, that place that you carved into nations regardless of the people living in it? That may be a little harder than laughing at the "stupid Americans" or the "trigger-happy soldiers."
You know what really over-shadows the occasional American brutality?
Algeria. :-/ And yes, one of many.
Isn't it fun to be in the spotlight..

Lol - sorry mate, it's 4:45AM over here in Europe (well Britain). I'm up because I've got an exam in a couple of days time and I study best at night but apart from me I wouldn't have thought too many people would be pottering around.

Oh, and as nations go, I hold the US in pretty high esteem.

We care (http://www.pixelblender.com/images/pwned.gif) so much.

We care (http://www.pixelblender.com/images/pwned.gif) so much.

You can tell by the fact that after 20 minutes, there were still only two replies.

*is American*

But wow, maybe instead of looking at America, we could look at..Africa? You know, that place that you carved into nations regardless of the people living in it? That may be a little harder than laughing at the "stupid Americans" or the "trigger-happy soldiers." *snip*

haha, I support it. Lets talk about how Europeans are indirectly responsible for virtually all of Africa's problems, considering that they kept the entire continent back hundreds of years and stole all of its resources.

Then after that we can go back to Europeans pointing the finger at other countries for "stealing" land.

I wonder if the persection complex ever gets boring for the OP.

In any case, I criticise Europe, and especially the EU, all the time. It just happens to be that USians are often ignorant on anything that happens 5 or more metres outside their borders, which means they don't often have the attention spans for it.

haha, I support it. Lets talk about how Europeans are indirectly responsible for virtually all of Africa's problems, considering that they kept the entire continent back hundreds of years and stole all of its resources.

Then after that we can go back to Europeans pointing the finger at other countries for "stealing" land.

So the wrongdoings of the US are made less wrong because of Europe's in the past? Exactly the kind of "logic" we've come to expect on NS.

And while we're pointing the fingers at the nations and areas that always play the victim card the most, perhaps we can point out how Arabs were responsible for introducing the slave trade to the West.

So the wrongdoings of the US are made less wrong because of Europe's in the past? Exactly the kind of "logic" we've come to expect on NS.

I actually wasn't talking about the US. Nor did anyone ever actually state that the wrongdoings of any one country are lessened due to the next. Rather, it was only pointed out that there are hypocrites who pay less attention to previous wrongdoings and give less emphasis to them than they do to lesser recent wrongdoings.

European nations messed Africa up so bad, they should really still be giving some type of major reparations.

We should point that out right away. Pointing that out will make us better people. Let's point out.

*points*

Does criticizing America ever get boring to you people? I know some repetitive things like that don't get boring to me; I'm always the life of the party when I start ripping on Michael Jackson because I'm soo original.

What I'm even doing right now is stooping down to the flame-war level of whiny, leftist Fahrenheit 9/11 Political Scholars and insane right-wing bomb throwers by making this thread.

But wow, maybe instead of looking at America, we could look at..Africa? You know, that place that you carved into nations regardless of the people living in it? That may be a little harder than laughing at the "stupid Americans" or the "trigger-happy soldiers."
You know what really over-shadows the occasional American brutality?
Algeria. :-/ And yes, one of many.
Isn't it fun to be in the spotlight..

You ever seen a war movie?

You have a battlefield type arrangement, maybe some nice terrain features providing cover, elevation - good camera angles.

There's probably a half-burned out jeep or something, and, for some reason... some fruit crates, behind which our 'heroes' are most likely lurking.

Somewhere across the battlefield, someone pops their head over a(nother) fruit crate, or (inexplicably) an oil drum.

Pop - he gets a bullet tinged off of his lid, and falls to the ground. A few minutes later, another the same. We've all seen this movie.

What about the guy who stands on the ridge, sillhouetted against the rising sun? What happens to him?




The moral of the story is - if you stand up and make yourself look important... people are going to take shots.

I actually wasn't talking about the US. Nor did anyone ever actually state that the wrongdoings of any one country are lessened due to the next. Rather, it was only pointed out that there are hypocrites who pay less attention to previous wrongdoings and give less emphasis to them than they do to lesser recent wrongdoings.

You mean to tell me today's news gets more attention than that of last week? Get outta town!

European nations messed Africa up so bad, they should really still be giving some type of major reparations.

No doubt they should, but what that has to do with Europe's ability to point out the wrongdoing of others, or how that makes that wrongdoing less wrong, as you seemed to allude to, remains a mystery.

Then again, even if it did somehow miraculously do that, I guess I should be lucky that I live in a country that had nothing to do with Africa, so I can still point my finger and thumb my nose at all of you!

Oh, Swedish Fatherland, such perks you treat me to...

You can tell by the fact that after 20 minutes, there were still only two replies.

*is American*

Have you ever figured that Europe might be sleeping? :rolleyes:

You ever seen a war movie?

You have a battlefield type arrangement, maybe some nice terrain features providing cover, elevation - good camera angles.

There's probably a half-burned out jeep or something, and, for some reason... some fruit crates, behind which our 'heroes' are most likely lurking.

Somewhere across the battlefield, someone pops their head over a(nother) fruit crate, or (inexplicably) an oil drum.

Pop - he gets a bullet tinged off of his lid, and falls to the ground. A few minutes later, another the same. We've all seen this movie.

What about the guy who stands on the ridge, sillhouetted against the rising sun? What happens to him?




The moral of the story is - if you stand up and make yourself look important... people are going to take shots.
Whhhhhaaaaaaaaaaatt???:confused:

Whhhhhaaaaaaaaaaatt???:confused:

I was recently selected as the Foreign Secretary for the Bizarre Duchy of Allegoria.

Then again, even if it did somehow miraculously do that, I guess I should be lucky that I live in a country that had nothing to do with Africa, so I can still point my finger and thumb my nose at all of you!

Oh, Swedish Fatherland, such perks you treat me to...

Damn you guiltless Swedes. We'll frame you yet...

You killed JFK!

Damn you guiltless Swedes. We'll frame you yet...

You killed JFK!

Tsk, tsk, and you let such an opportunity to mention our "neutrality" in WWII pass you by. Even if we did offer shelter to many Jews... Oh, well, better historical reference luck next time! :)

haha, I support it. Lets talk about how Europeans are indirectly responsible for virtually all of Africa's problems, considering that they kept the entire continent back hundreds of years and stole all of its resources.

Then after that we can go back to Europeans pointing the finger at other countries for "stealing" land.

Britian actually did a LOT of good for the nations under it's rule. Most of those nations are thriving today. Like the US, for example, although we didn't really thrive UNDER their rule. Canada would be a better example.

And it should be noted that despite the way the borders were drawn, it was Africans themselves who started one coup after the other, killed millions of other Africans and exploited each other wherever they could.

It's the same deal with the free trade discussions: It's not free trade that is at fault for Africa's poor performance, it's the sorry excuses they've had for governments.

I It just happens to be that USians are often ignorant on anything that happens 5 or more metres outside their borders, which means they don't often have the attention spans for it.

US geographical knowledge is to blame:

Canada north, Mexico south, left and right: water.

US geographical knowledge is to blame:

Canada north, Mexico south, left and right: water.
Even more so if they consider the points of the compass to read North, South, Left, Right.

US geographical knowledge is to blame:

Canada north, Mexico south, left and right: water.


Hey, our knowledge is slightly more advanced than that.

http://www.speedygrl.com/america_big.gif

And we have water now? Holy crap! :eek:

Even more so if they consider the points of the compass to read North, South, Left, Right.

Beat me to it. And, they've apparently no idea of Alaska, or the semi-extensive group of US territories.

haha, I support it. Lets talk about how Europeans are indirectly responsible for virtually all of Africa's problems, considering that they kept the entire continent back hundreds of years and stole all of its resources.

Oh, I wouldn't blame Africa's problems on Europe too much; When Sierra Leone, for example, became independent from the UK in 1961, it was more advanced than Singapore. Now... *fart*

Britian actually did a LOT of good for the nations under it's rule. Most of those nations are thriving today. Like the US, for example, although we didn't really thrive UNDER their rule. Canada would be a better example.
Exactly so! Africans killed way, waaay more Africans than the Europeans did. Likewise, Europeans slaughtered eachother (100 years war, Napoleonic War...etc.), killing more of themselves than they would ever kill other peoples (Don't know quite how to word that correctly). For example, the Zulus killed probably millions of their own people (their kings were insane) over their short period of power in Africa. The British killed 10,000-20,000 of them.
Besides, Eurpoean tools, knowledge, etc., allowed Africa to export food. They kick the Europeans out and now look at them... starving.

It is true that Europe should learn from its mistakes of colonialism of the past. That is why we are so passionately anti-American foreign policy at the current time. Imperialism is never a positive!

That is why we are so passionately anti-American foreign policy at the current time.
Untrue!
We are against American foreign policy because we hate freedom.

It is true that Europe should learn from its mistakes of colonialism of the past. That is why we are so passionately anti-American foreign policy at the current time. Imperialism is never a positive!


I agree with that, except for the last sentence. But if you do think that imperialism is a bad thing then yes; We've been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Hell, I ain't kidding, I LOVE America. But then I'm a fascist neo-imperialist who wants to see western culture smash everything that opposes it, so I'm probably not the kind of support you want.

Hey, our knowledge is slightly more advanced than that.

http://www.speedygrl.com/america_big.gif

And we have water now? Holy crap! :eek:

You know, I saw a map very similar to that on destroy all humans... although it did list the middle east, as "oil for our tanks". then it had various powers, listed as either communist, or had lots of compliments added to it (our allies)
and that map was a plan in the 1960's... hmmm, it seems we haven't changed our maps in a while. And as to the African debate, they didn't split due to the (emphasis) 5! imperial powers into a bazillion other countries, they just decided " Hey, I don't like you, me and my people are oging to secede" Then they turn into another dictatorship. Then the U.S. Invades and kills as many as they can. Then they install democracy, claiming that only democracy can offer peace, while standing over a crowd of africans who just saw most of their families annhilated. There, now don't you love african politics and democracy, and U.S's foreign policy??
*Is an American*

Then the U.S. Invades and kills as many as they can. Then they install democracy, claiming that only democracy can offer peace, while standing over a crowd of africans who just saw most of their families annhilated. There, now don't you love african politics and democracy, and U.S's foreign policy??
*Is an American*

A few problems with your logic here.

One - when did we try to install a government in Africa via armed invasion? And don't say Somalia, the troops were there to protect food shipments for the U.N.
Two- kill as many as we can? Gee, then why didn't we break out the nukes? If the whole point was genocide, surely we could do better than conventional warfare?

Tsk, tsk, and you let such an opportunity to mention our "neutrality" in WWII pass you by. Even if we did offer shelter to many Jews... Oh, well, better historical reference luck next time! :)
Yeah, nice one pretending to be neutral but helping the Finns, and receiving weapons from the British so that you could fight the USSR even though thery were supposed to be our allies... :p

That good enough?

Im American and I never get tried of critizing America. As far as Im concern Europe es mujer que nostros anyway. So to the op, :upyours: viva europa!

If the US desires not to be made fun of then it needs to do one of two things. Either
a) Stop being a hegemonic power. This is the virtually the only reason the mass of critiscisms that come its. It's fairly true to say, no matter what the US, so long as it is hegemonic it will be criticised and much myrth will be had by everyone who isn't American.
OR
b) Completely supress freedom of expression in all countries that are not the US. This should be fairly easy for Americans as it doesn't involve a specific country. This includes the UK, no matter much arse licking Blair has done recently.

Does criticizing America ever get boring to you people? I know some repetitive things like that don't get boring to me; I'm always the life of the party when I start ripping on Michael Jackson because I'm soo original.

What I'm even doing right now is stooping down to the flame-war level of whiny, leftist Fahrenheit 9/11 Political Scholars and insane right-wing bomb throwers by making this thread.

But wow, maybe instead of looking at America, we could look at..Africa? You know, that place that you carved into nations regardless of the people living in it? That may be a little harder than laughing at the "stupid Americans" or the "trigger-happy soldiers."
You know what really over-shadows the occasional American brutality?
Algeria. :-/ And yes, one of many.
Isn't it fun to be in the spotlight..

...gets beer...pops popcorn...gets fire extinguisher...pulls chair up to monitor...:D

b) Completely supress freedom of expression in all countries that are not the US. This should be fairly easy for Americans as it doesn't involve a specific country. This includes the UK, no matter much arse licking Blair has done recently.
Yeah - here's a giant "up yours" from the UK, America. Although I like quite a lot of your people, I don't like quite a lot of them as well. Especially your government, which is full of career liars.

Hmm actually, the US is really alright. But it'd be great if you didn't use September 11th and "terrorists" as your excuse for excessive human rights violations.

Does criticizing America ever get boring to you people? I know some repetitive things like that don't get boring to me; I'm always the life of the party when I start ripping on Michael Jackson because I'm soo original.

What I'm even doing right now is stooping down to the flame-war level of whiny, leftist Fahrenheit 9/11 Political Scholars and insane right-wing bomb throwers by making this thread.

But wow, maybe instead of looking at America, we could look at..Africa? You know, that place that you carved into nations regardless of the people living in it? That may be a little harder than laughing at the "stupid Americans" or the "trigger-happy soldiers."
You know what really over-shadows the occasional American brutality?
Algeria. :-/ And yes, one of many.
Isn't it fun to be in the spotlight..
I live in the US.

And in many cases, our problems are Europe's, and the world's, problems. They often have reason to complain.

If the US desires not to be made fun of then it needs to do one of two things. Either
a) Stop being a hegemonic power. This is the virtually the only reason the mass of critiscisms that come its. It's fairly true to say, no matter what the US, so long as it is hegemonic it will be criticised and much myrth will be had by everyone who isn't American.
OR
b) Completely supress freedom of expression in all countries that are not the US. This should be fairly easy for Americans as it doesn't involve a specific country. This includes the UK, no matter much arse licking Blair has done recently.

Oh, for the good old days of two superpowers. Where is the USSR when you need it. :rolleyes:

Does criticizing America ever get boring to you people?

What do you mean "you people"?

1. Kindly stop refering to Europe as one country. It is several

2. Yes, European countries has done some terrible things in its past, but guess what. For the past 40 years after independence, European nations have done far more than the US in terms of charitiable outreach to Africa. Its only now with Bush in office that America that its begining to change

http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/develop/oda/tables/milvsaid.htm

http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Jun/28-655363.html

SNIP...Especially your government, which is full of career liars.

I can't disagree with that. Not much different in the UK I should think.

What do you mean "you people"?

By the way Keru, they way things are going right now I might owe you a bunch of cookies in November. :(

I can't disagree with that. Not much different in the UK I should think.

Or anywhere else, really.

Oh, for the good old days of two superpowers. Where is the USSR when you need it. :rolleyes:Indeed, twice the superpowers, twice the fun.

Yes, yes... everyone's at fault, just America's louder about it.:p

Yes, yes... everyone's at fault, just America's louder about it.:p

Bingo. I wouldnt complain so much about the US if there werent so many US fan boys saying America is the land of the free. Its ok to love your country, but hell, your sense of freedom is quite fucked up.

1. Kindly stop refering to Europe as one country. It is several

2. Yes, European countries has done some terrible things in its past, but guess what. For the past 40 years after independence, European nations have done far more than the US in terms of charitiable outreach to Africa. Its only now with Bush in office that America that its begining to change

http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/develop/oda/tables/milvsaid.htm

http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Jun/28-655363.html

Thats called having economic interest in old Imperialized colonies; however, it is certainly worth mentioning. Especially how Europe ran to stop the Rwandan genocide, the Sudanese genocide, and the continuing massacres in the Congo..
Oh.
Wait.
And by "you people", I mean European critics of America..as if that isn't obvious enough.

Maybe the reason why the US is such an easy target is because it spends so much time riding around on the moral high horse. Americans seem to think that they're perfect, and therefore have the right to judge other countries as moral or immoral, and send in overzealous armies based on that descision. People die every day not because of severe corruption or genocide in the US, but because of the American policy of superiority.

The problem is that most of the die hard American-supporters are conservatives. Conservative as in "referring to the past".

Thats called having economic interest in old Imperialized colonies; however, it is certainly worth mentioning. Especially how Europe ran to stop the Rwandan genocide, the Sudanese genocide, and the continuing massacres in the Congo..
Oh.
Wait.
And by "you people", I mean European critics of America..as if that isn't obvious enough.When was the last time you saw someone accuse the European countries of being saints, or even moderately benevolent? I've lived in quite a few of them, and I promise you they aren't.

But do you really think that gives America a carte blanché for chaos? Do you really think any country's peoples are just going to shut the hell up about what your country does, when it casually goes against the expressed interests of virtually everyone else on the globe?

Or is it simply that you feel non-yanks have no right to criticise yankeeland? Because if that's the case, why should you have the right to criticise anyone else?

Face it: all countries are bastards. Yours just happens to be the greatest bastard of them all. If you can't stand the reactions for that, then do something to change it. Alternatively, you can follow your fleeing countrymen to Canada.

The problem is that most of the die hard American-supporters are conservatives. Conservative as in "referring to the past".Yes well, if only they were isolationists as well.. But I guess that's too much to hope for.

Besides, Eurpoean tools, knowledge, etc., allowed Africa to export food. They kick the Europeans out and now look at them... starving.

And still exporting food despite that.

im sorry to burst youre bubble yanks, but in case you hadnt heard world war 1 and world war 2 crippled us. ireland caused the destruction of the british empire, we have fuck all power any more. it is youre responsibilty to sort it out now, you are the new super power. sure we shout and you and tell you what you should be doin. but this is coz we are talking from experience, we have had our power gone a bit mad and now have settled back and can see what is wrong with the the world, who can sort it out, who should sort it out and who is sitting back doin fuck all to sort it out.

we will just have to wait for out next child (china) to sort out the mess, (we used to own hongkong.. there is a connection)

So the wrongdoings of the US are made less wrong because of Europe's in the past? Exactly the kind of "logic" we've come to expect on NS.
Oh I don't know -- I've seen posters denigrate the US because it is a new country and has 'no history' but think that hundreds of years of religious persecution within European nations is somehow noble -- I find it amusing how well former the African colonies of various European nations are doing, and how much support those nations are in fact giving to those former colonies to help repair the damage such colonization left in its wake... the fact that US citizens are racist and insular and yet Turkey is blocked from becoming part of the EU... the idea that there were weeks of rioting among the largely Arab populations in France because they have not been allowed to integrate into society....

But yes, unless it's five meters from our borders, we're obviously too stupid to see the hypocrisy, since Europeans are called on it regularly on these forums. And I'm sorry I don't see how the wrongdoings of Europe, which as a group of older and OBVIOUSLY superior societies should know better, are wiped out because of the US's wrongdoings. Such is the logic we've come to expect from some arrogant Europeans.

Oh I don't know
<Snip>The real answer is probably that while there's plenty of Europeans on here, we come from a lot of small countries. Most of the topics on here are about US policy, and really.. It's not so surprising, since most people probably don't know much at all about party political bulshit in Norway or Belgium, and would have a fairly hard time trying to establish a frame of reference. The same isn't true about the US.

I'll never claim Europe or Europeans are saints, but we're both relatively insignificant & pretty obscure. The US isn't. At all. When was the last time Swedish forign policy had a major impact on the US? When was the last time US forign policy didn't have a major impact on everyone, Sweden included?

Oh I don't know -- I've seen posters denigrate the US because it is a new country and has 'no history'

230 years is young.

but think that hundreds of years of religious persecution within European nations is somehow noble

I've yet to see anyone defend historical religious persecution. What I have seen, though, is many USians and Europeans and Canadians and so on propagate genocide due to religion, or sexual orientation or what have you.

-- I find it amusing how well former the African colonies of various European nations are doing,

I've seen very few Europeans defending imperialism. In fact, I've countless more deploring, whether it be European or the new-fangled one the US is involved in.

and how much support those nations are in fact giving to those former colonies to help repair the damage such colonization left in its wake...

I've on several occasions expressed the need for more aid to those countries not just by European countries that had anything to do with Africa, but Sweden and other wealthy countries.

the fact that US citizens are racist and insular

You did have segregation until the 60s, and there is no denying the average USian is insular when it comes to world affairs. You've read the figures, and seen the comparative studies.

and yet Turkey is blocked from becoming part of the EU...

I've expressed many times my loathing of the EU and demands for it to be disassembled, and Sweden happens to be one of the members pushing most for Turkish inclusion.

the idea that there were weeks of rioting among the largely Arab populations in France because they have not been allowed to integrate into society....

Again, I have repeatedly criticised France in several matters, and my dislike of Jacques Chirac is as little a secret as my dislike for Bush, or, say, Putin.

But yes, unless it's five meters from our borders, we're obviously too stupid to see the hypocrisy, since Europeans are called on it regularly on these forums.

Oh, I don't know, you seem to have missed quite a lot.

And I'm sorry I don't see how the wrongdoings of Europe, which as a group of older and OBVIOUSLY superior societies should know better, are wiped out because of the US's wrongdoings.

I've yet to see anyone claim such a thing. In fact, it is why I asked.

Such is the logic we've come to expect from some arrogant Europeans.

I suppose this is what is to be expected from the blinders of a persecution complex.

1. Kindly stop refering to Europe as one country. It is several countries.



1. Kindly stop thinking that ALL Americans are the same. There are a lot of us.

2. Don't tell me that our government is full of liars. I know this. And I'll get on fixing that. Cuz you know, it's sooo easy in the bureacratical system we have going on.

3. We are not perfect. Far from it. I sometimes hate the people I'm surrounded by. I don't plan on living here longer then I have to.

4. I kind of wish the pilgrims weren't given a reason to leave, Columbus wasn't curious, the Spaniards didn't feel like expanding, and the vikings just stayed put. I realize that is out of order.

5. Terrorism, in America anyway, is a joke. And I'll just say it. I think 9/11 was staged.

6. The propoganda I hear from Bush makes me want to vomit. "Freedom Haters" and crap like that.

Just felt like complaing I guess.

Well I think that europe is a complicated region. Ithink that Europe really messed up the world stage a long time ago with their Colonies and all, but now they are making up for it with their social pro-activeness and environmental efforts and all (allthough you can't really make up any of it)

Well I think that europe is a complicated region. Ithink that Europe really messed up the world stage a long time ago with their Colonies and all, but now they are making up for it with their social pro-activeness and environmental efforts and all (allthough you can't really make up any of it)And hatred of freedom, of course.

Isn't it great that we can compare one country, America, to a whole continent, Europe. Apples and what now?

Yes well, if only they were isolationists as well.. But I guess that's too much to hope for.

In the last century the US has intervened in two world wars on the side of liberty and democracy, providing Europe with defence against the Soviet threat, creating the Marshall plan, providing unprecedented amounts of aid to nations in the wake of humanitarian disasters and preventing genocide's in Kosovo and Bosnia to name but a few.

Sure they've done some bad things too, but the idea that the US or indeed the west generally should retreat from the world and turn a blind eye to all the atrocities that blight it is not a solution.

Does criticizing America ever get boring to you people? I know some repetitive things like that don't get boring to me; I'm always the life of the party when I start ripping on Michael Jackson because I'm soo original.

What I'm even doing right now is stooping down to the flame-war level of whiny, leftist Fahrenheit 9/11 Political Scholars and insane right-wing bomb throwers by making this thread.

But wow, maybe instead of looking at America, we could look at..Africa? You know, that place that you carved into nations regardless of the people living in it? That may be a little harder than laughing at the "stupid Americans" or the "trigger-happy soldiers."
You know what really over-shadows the occasional American brutality?
Algeria. :-/ And yes, one of many.
Isn't it fun to be in the spotlight..
I'm American, but can I answer?

Until America stops tossing itself down the crapper, I'm not gonna get tired of finding witty ways to highlight how America is tossing itself down the crapper.

This is a coping mechanism, you see. I love the ideals that my country used to stand for. I used to be so proud of being American. And now I watch while my leaders and my fellow citizens disgrace everything brilliant and wonderful about this country. If I don't make jokes about it, I'm going to fucking choke on my sobs.

Isn't it great that we can compare one country, America, to a whole continent, Europe. Apples and what now?

I guess if you wanted to get technical, the EU and the US are almost the same size in population, land area, and GDP...but that doesn't take in to account the dozens or even hundreds of languages and dialects, distinct cultures, and independent nations that comprise the EU.

Wow, nationalists are funny. "STOP INSULTING MY NATION! LOOK WHAT YOU DID!" "AND YOU DID THAT, TOO!" "BUT YOU'RE WORSE!" And on and on.

I guess if you wanted to get technical, the EU and the US are almost the same size in population, land area, and GDP...but that doesn't take in to account the dozens or even hundreds of languages and dialects, distinct cultures, and independent nations that comprise the EU.
That and there's all the non-EU countries in Europe. And a good chunk of Russia is in Europe too.

Thats called having economic interest in old Imperialized colonies; however, it is certainly worth mentioning.

I'm sorry. Let me just get this straight. You think giving aid is having interests in former colonies? Aid is a generous good thing. Your basicly saying Europe is evil for doing it?
]

That and there's all the non-EU countries in Europe. And a good chunk of Russia is in Europe too.

They balance out the population and GDP, but make Europe slightly larger than the US...

nope! it is practically a national passtime in Norway!

I'm sorry. Let me just get this straight. You think giving aid is having interests in former colonies? Aid is a generous good thing. Your basicly saying Europe is evil for doing it?
]

Heres your aid, and we'd also like to set up a military base, if thats alright.
And no, I'm not saying Europe is evil. Its a game played by all country; unlike Europeans, I'm not afraid to turn the mirror on my own country. America aids Latin America and other countries, but it'd be foolish to say we don't profit from it.

On a different note, when did nationalism become a bad thing? Hitler? Nationalism is great, and letting people who don't live in your country attack it is like having Hilary date Geoffrey(Fresh Prince) : simply foolish.

Does criticizing America ever get boring to you people?
When your lovely president is constantly giving the world new material to mock him about? No.

*is Canadian*

Currently, the United States in Iraq is no different than the damage caused by Europeans on colonial Africa, now, is it?

Have you ever figured that Europe might be sleeping? :rolleyes:

and so thats how the Nazi rolled over all they're asses.

Currently, the United States in Iraq is no different than the damage caused by Europeans on colonial Africa, now, is it?

yeah it is. the entire continent of africa is ravaged by war, plauge, rape and starvation. all due to europe. millions die per day of un-natural causes. and not to play a numbers game but far far less are dying in Iraq.

'cough' liberia 'cough'
And we europeans had time to scew over a continent but it's starting to look that the USA is rushing to catch up.

nope! it is practically a national passtime in Norway!

What is this "it" you speak of?

Also, I would like to add that it would be hard to find a nation which couldn't be criticized for anything.

yeah it is. the entire continent of africa is ravaged by war, plauge, rape and starvation. all due to europe. millions die per day of un-natural causes. and not to play a numbers game but far far less are dying in Iraq.

May I point you to the fact that it was America that was so strong anti-imperalistic that Europe could not regain control of it's colonies. I don't want to defend the colonial system any of us had back then, but there was a stable government and money to do things.

And IF Europe would have regained control then I think that, at least by now, we would have seen that the way we controlled those people is wrong and would have been changed, or they could have been given a controlled way to reach independence, with a possible remaping of the area to prevent civil war by different tribes. This would probably not allow dictators to rise and because it went slowly the trade, food supplies and welfare would be arranged a lot better. Because the only realy thing Africa lacks at this time is a good government, when there would be one then with all the money we spent on it now they could solve theire problems and feed theire people.

What is this "it" you speak of?

Also, I would like to add that it would be hard to find a nation which couldn't be criticized for anything.

well...my friends and i sometimes have quite fun just making fun of George Bush. His mis-speaks and that sort of thing.

there is NO country that is perfect...except canada, and that is due to the fact that they leach off U.S. (their money, their tourists, their border, have you ever noticed all major Canadian cities are on the border?). So really, they are the worst of all.

well...my friends and i sometimes have quite fun just making fun of George Bush. His mis-speaks and that sort of thing.

there is NO country that is perfect...except canada, and that is due to the fact that they leach off U.S. (their money, their tourists, their border, have you ever noticed all major Canadian cities are on the border?). So really, they are the worst of all.
NOT TRUE! Edmonton is NOT on the border. It's quite a distance away from it too.

oh wait...you said Canada's perfect...carry on then. :cool:

yes Europe traded slaves..
but that slaves were going to America to work on plantations. And if that would not been this way.. the 'help' of the slaves.. then America would not be this way. And the Americans themselves perhaps starved due the lack of food. Thanks to the Europeans America is as it is now perhaps. I just make something up but it could be that way..

but after all.. I'm a 15 years old boy from the netherlands and don't know much about suck kind of things..

After reading all this I can't help to notice that a few main facts were left out.

1) Americans are a people that absolutely must destroy something and if they can't they'll destroy themselves

2)Americans try to be as immoral as possible just for the hell of it as Europe is trying to keep their countries education, economy and government up and running

3)Sure every country did something bad but at the moment America tops the crimes in government

yeah it is. the entire continent of africa is ravaged by war, plauge, rape and starvation. all due to europe.
Nothing to do with the TNCs, religious intolerance, the vast amount of people in a pretty much inhospitible landscape, the World Bank pretty much forcing these countries to farm cash crops rather than food crops due to loan repayments, horribly corrupt politicians, wars that have been ongoing for thousands of years and a healthy dose of disease, then?

And the US is no saint Africa-wise. Seirra Leone is only still going because the diamond companies and arms companies making so much money from the war there, the Libyan president and his 2 year-old daughter getting bombed because he didn't agree with American policies, and there was also the support of Apartheid from the US as well, amongst so much, much more.

Europe has done some fairly horrible things, but the USA's really taken over since the fifties.

Isn't this thread just a little bit silly? I don't think there were too many of us on this forum who were directly involved in any of the actions being thrown about, and I think quite a few of us probably don't agree with our respective nations stance on everything past or present. However, isn't it a testament to all our nations that we are now able to so freely discuss the failings of our countries past and present without fear of governmental reprisal, doesn't work so well in china, even google is censored.

Every country has some blemishes, at least were able to discuss ours! However having the ability to discuss which continent has the worse history Europe or America is a bit silly when it serves to do nothing more than antagonise people on both sides of the atlantic. Why not discuss what the free can do to help people who aren't free? Also, as a sidenote, perhaps our (mostly) shared checkered histories have shaped us into who and what we are as nations today and have in some part lead us towards the freedoms we now enjoy.

Although the latter may just be sentimental BS

NOT TRUE! Edmonton is NOT on the border. It's quite a distance away from it too.

oh wait...you said Canada's perfect...carry on then. :cool:

o...k...what about Victoria, Toronto, and Ontario?

no, Canada is perfect because they are too cowardly to get involved in anything. Personally, I would rather a country try to do the right thing, and see them mess up, than see a country hide behind their borders (which are protected by the U.S....)....

like Norway in WWII. :). we didn't have much of a military but fought Nazi Deutschland all we could!

o...k...what about Victoria, Toronto, and Ontario?

no, Canada is perfect because they are too cowardly to get involved in anything. Personally, I would rather a country try to do the right thing, and see them mess up, than see a country hide behind their borders (which are protected by the U.S....)....

like Norway in WWII. :). we didn't have much of a military but fought Nazi Deutschland all we could!
We like warmer weather, not the US. Besides you said ALL of the major cities in Canada are on the border; I just proved you wrong.

I'll have you know Canada did a LOT in both the world wars. We took finaly Vimy Ridge after British and French forces failed repeatedly. We were also the first to take our beach on D-Day. And no, we're not too cowardly to get involved in missions around the world. Right now, we're involved in peacekeeping missions in Afganistan, Sudan, and many parts of Africa. Overall, we're peace-loving people, so you would never get to see us starting a war for no good reason at all.

I'll have you know Canada did a LOT in both the world wars. We took finaly Vimy Ridge after British and French forces failed repeatedly. We were also the first to take our beach on D-Day.
It's true!

I genuinely respect the Canadians for their valiant efforts in both world wars - thanks very much for saving a great deal of lives for the Allies!

Europes full of crybabies cuz they lost their empires.

Now we have all the power, end of story.

I dunno if anyone mentioned this yet, but it was also France and Britain who drew the borders of the Middle East with no regard for the differing religious sects, hence the ridiculous amount of turmoil we're experiencing today.

Europes full of crybabies cuz they lost their empires.

Now we have all the power, end of story.

Barbaric indeed you are

No you dont have all the power. What you have is hard power and soft power. The latter is stronger, but slowly weakening due to your overreliance on the former. Read Joseph Nye to understand further

Barbaric indeed you are



Wow - it's Yoda.

3)Sure every country did something bad but at the moment America tops the crimes in government

America is no where NEAR the top globaly, but it IS at the top for Democratic Nations.

Why?

Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.

But that still doesn't excuse planning 9/11, Torture in Gutanimo, an almost Racial Class structure and 60% not beleiving in the theory of evolution (and btw, just because there are worse countries than the USA does not excuse its nasty behaviour).

But, America is slowly loosing its power, Europe's slowly getting its back, and China is gaining it faster than a Lepoard on speed.

AND Africa was NOT Europe's falut. To be perfectly honest, when the Europeans left in the 50s (OF THEIR OWN ACCORD!) Africa had enough resources to be a healthy region in the world, but due to Wars and Drought, it never happened. Definetely terrible, but not Europe's falut.

Thats my two PENCE.

I too have noticed that, and have discussed in my Imperialism classes that the media has played a HUGE role in turning countries against each other. If the media never said a biased word then there truly would be world peace but what can we do?

:rolleyes:

America has it faults, every country does, but get over it people!!! I, as an average American should know, the everyday person is better then their representitive.

May I point you to the fact that it was America that was so strong anti-imperalistic that Europe could not regain control of it's colonies. I don't want to defend the colonial system any of us had back then, but there was a stable government and money to do things.

That's only partly correct. Both the US and the Soviet Union were strongly anti-imperialist, and it was the Communists in particular that could command the support of the poor and marginalized like the inhabitants of the colonial territories.

Both the US and the Soviet Union were responsible for the end of the colonial era, as were the economic and military damage from the actual war and the already emerging anti-imperialist movement that had been accelerating since the First World War. The colonial era was dying, regardless of the pressure from the US and the USSR...their pressure only sped up the process.

The reason why most of Europe is so angry at the US is because we see you making the same goddamn mistakes we made, and you completely ignore our warnings.

The Colional Era ended cos europe killed itself in the 2 World Wars.
Nuff Said.

The reason why most of Europe is so angry at the US is because we see you making the same goddamn mistakes we made, and you completely ignore our warnings.

Europe is the Mother and America is the Moody Teenager....

Once heard this from someone and thought it seemed marginally relevant:

"The UN, if compared to a group of squabbling school children in the playground, only really tolerate America (the annoying, personality deficient, fat kid) because they've brought the biggest bag of marbles"

Can't remember where I head it but thought some of you might enjoy the analogy.

AND Africa was NOT Europe's falut. To be perfectly honest, when the Europeans left in the 50s (OF THEIR OWN ACCORD!) Africa had enough resources to be a healthy region in the world, but due to Wars and Drought, it never happened. Definetely terrible, but not Europe's falut.
How is Africa not Europe's fault? European imperialists basically took away the tribal structure Africans had, forced them to Christianity, and established their own dictatorial rules. When most Europeans left Africa, it was not because they didn't want to keep the colonies, but because they were under too much pressure from the US and they did not have enough money to keep the colonies due to the two world wars. They left so quickly and with so much disregard to the Africans that the absence of a powerful government led to turmoil and civil war. Also, many of the civil wars were results of apartheid and racism, a direct product of the European rules. Lastly, not every European power wanted to leave, and they did not all leave before the 50's. The Portugese had to be kicked out of most its colonies well into the 70's.

Do you honestly want to know why the US gets so much stick on this board? It's because most of the people on this board are from the US.
The second largest demographic is European (I don't know the exact breakdown from the individual Countries) which is why they receive so much back-biting after the US. So it's quite simple, people complain about what they know. As the US foreign policy is in the news so much at the moment the Europeans know about the events, and so continue to look up these events further on the internet or watch news reports, read papers, et al. The Americans know about these things, it's their Country, so they can respond or start the threads.
Why does no-one say much about Africa etc, because hardly anyone on these boards is from there (comparatively) so there isn't the overall knowledge to discuss those issues.

See, simple.

How is Africa not Europe's fault? European imperialists basically took away the tribal structure Africans had, forced them to Christianity, and established their own dictatorial rules. When most Europeans left Africa, it was not because they didn't want to keep the colonies, but because they were under too much pressure from the US and they did not have enough money to keep the colonies due to the two world wars. They left so quickly and with so much disregard to the Africans that the absence of a powerful government led to turmoil and civil war. Also, many of the civil wars were results of apartheid and racism, a direct product of the European rules. Lastly, not every European power wanted to leave, and they did not all leave before the 50's. The Portugese had to be kicked out of most its colonies well into the 70's.

Look, all I'm saying is that the African Governments had enough to establish themselves, but chose private wealth for themselves over their people.

Plus, if America is so holy about Africa, why aren't they/didn't they do anything to help Africa?

Too paranoid of Middle Eastern Sand, thats why.

Look, all I'm saying is that the African Governments had enough to establish themselves, but chose private wealth for themselves over their people.
Your logic does not work. You cannot expect to beat a race of people down, leave them there, and expect them to pick themselves up very soon, even if they have the means to do it. A lot of the problems there are political, but that's because the people are not educated enough to think they have to power to change things. In fact, many of them are barely able to scrape by with enough to eat. So you are blaming the leftover problem from the imperial times on the products of these problems.
Plus, if America is so holy about Africa, why aren't they/didn't they do anything to help Africa? Too paranoid of Middle Eastern Sand, thats why.
I never said America is being "holy" about Africa. I know America isn't doing nearly as much as it can. In fact, not many countries in the world are. People didn't listen when Romeo Dallaire reported the conditions in Rwanda before the genocide until it was too late, and they still aren't listening. Yes, they are paranoid of Middle Eastern countries, so what's your point? Even if the Middle Eastern countries were on good terms with the US, the current government would still be picking fights with other countries that are not on good terms with it, like North Korea. America will always be more interesting in beating countries down than picking beaten down countries up.

For the Record, America used to be VERY good at picking at picking up beaten countries *points to West Germany* but only when it benefeits them.

And, im curious as to how you expect the Europeans to have had educated Africa. They were unacustomed to the African system, and so instigated their own. I'm not saying that was the right thing todo at all, but you got to admit, the European System WORKS.

Africa is in the state it is today because of the people who siezed power after the Colonials left. Again, a bad thing, but theres very Europe could have done about that considering they were barely getting by themselves. On the other hand, America could have.

Im just giving reasons why we Europhiles are continually putting America down.

For the Record, America used to be VERY good at picking at picking up beaten countries *points to West Germany* but only when it benefeits them.
Yes, when it benefits them. I have no doubt the US will start picking African countries that have oil up very soon.
And, im curious as to how you expect the Europeans to have had educated Africa. They were unacustomed to the African system, and so instigated their own. I'm not saying that was the right thing todo at all, but you got to admit, the European System WORKS.
The African system worked for centuries before the Europeans went there. The Europeans didn't even try to learn about the African system or appreciate it. You don't just go into another person's house and start instigating the rules of your house onto the other family. That was what Europe was doing. They were using their white-surpremicist views and forcing their religions and systems onto Africa without thinking about how they would be received. And that in itself created the problems Africa is facing today.
Africa is in the state it is today because of the people who siezed power after the Colonials left. Again, a bad thing, but theres very Europe could have done about that considering they were barely getting by themselves. On the other hand, America could have. Im just giving reasons why we Europhiles are continually putting America down.
No, there wasn't much Europe could've done after they left. In fact, they left so they didn't have to deal with the unrest that was brewing in their hands. People can only take oppression for too long, and the Africans were started to get very pissed off at the Europeans. Europe's departure in Africa's time of unrest allowed these various people to take power and make some places hell on earth. And we already went over this. America could've done a lot, but since it wasn't in their interest to do these things, they didn't.

http://www.forzanuova.org/manifesti/Europa%20VS%20America.jpg

Does criticizing America ever get boring to you people?

Yes it does! Being the world’s only superpower that is unavoidable. Britain and France took loads of shit during the time of the Empire's: Zulu wars, Malaya, Algeria, Indochina, Operation Musketeer just to name a few without going into details, but look on the bright side in a couple of years you (United States of America) will be joined by China and maybe India.

The Colional Era ended cos europe killed itself in the 2 World Wars.
Nuff Said.

It ended for many reasons.

Nuff said.

My opinions:
Africa moves north, causing vulcanic activity in southern italy, rising the alps and causing earthquakes.
The distance between Amerika and Europe is growing because of the continental drift.

That's what continents do to each other.


If one person kills another, it doesn't matter, where they are, or where they were born. It is something that one HUMAN does to another! If all people which live in a nation decide to kill all people of another nation, it is NOT one nation killing the other, it is individuals killing individuals.

There are only two reasons, why one kills the other (letting accidents and psychical illnesses aside):
1. He/She thought about all pros and cons and decided rationally.
2. He/She felt like it.

Because every human beeing lives in his own world (if I don't know about something, it doesn't exist in my world. f.e. The nice old lady in the neighbourhood will always be the nice old lady in the neighbourhood, even if she has helped to deport Jews in the second world war, but as long as I don't know about that, it is only part of her world and not of mine) someone may kill out of reasons I (we) don't understand.

So the european who kills some africans in the region he governs, because they tried to get rid of the colonisators, may think that setting an example causes "the others" to stay calm because of fear until they are educated enouth to see that the europeans are "natural born leaders" because they are "gods most loved children" or "more civilised" or "standing above africans because of some evolutionary steps" or what ever. So in HIS world he was the good-hearted colonisator who tries to help those "uncivilised africans" to live better lives. Some generations later I grew up in Central Europe, in Austria to be more precise, and I learned about african cultures and european history at school and through media. Because I learned that setting bloody examples never leads to peace, and because peace is an important value in my world (I don't know anything else and the thought of fast changes always frightens me) I wouldn't order or make them. Because of this I wouldn't like to live in a country that is ruled by humans who would. I wouldn't FEEL well to live in a land, where the majority would think positively about kolonising other countries using power and violence.
That's why I shook my head in disbelieve when Afghanistan was attacked to set an example for "evil terrorists-supporting countries". The UN learned from their mistake and didn't give the mandate to attack Irak. But some democratically elected politicians thought to be wiser and did attack. I don't say, that I would have known/know which way of acting would have been/be the best, but to ignore a UN decision weakens this institution very much. Because I agree with most goals of the UN, I am annoyed with those who weaken it. That's why I am not speaking very positively about President Bush sometimes.
What is definately his biggest achievement is the start of a "good-evil"-discussion and a discussion of values in general. That's -by the way- what I think the terrorists wanted to trigger with their 9-11 attacks. Not a very gentle way to, but efficient.

I don't know, if I could make my point clear - it is simply to late in the night to think properly... Just ask if something isn't clear! I'll answer in some hours (it is 2am here...).