NationStates Jolt Archive

Sorry for posting another religious thread you guys. My parents are both ministers so I really like debating theology and things of that sort.

I've been thinking: Many Christians outside of fundamentalist denominations do not seem to espouse belief in a demonic being opposite God( i.e. Satan) I find this curious: Believing in Satan isn't any more of a long shot, so to speak, than believing in God. What is more, Christian thinkers who DO factor Satan into the equation are able to circumvent two of their religion's most vexing problems:

1) The theodicy question: i.e. Why do bad things happen to good people, or why is there evil in the world at all?

Their answer: It's not that God is callous or ruthless, He is just engaged in a cosmic war with Satan; when inexplicable things happen( natural disasters etc.) it is Satan who is behind it.

2) Atonement theology: One school of thought regarding Christ's crucifixion tends to upset Christians just as the theodicy question does, sometimes with the same result( they break ties with religion)

Called Atonement theology, it states that Christ had to be crucified, had to take all the world's sin upon Himself, so that the human race would be purified and fit to join God in the Hereafter. Many argue that if one goes under the premise of Atonement, then God committed " divine child abuse" by having Christ purify us( Note: I'm going under the assumption that God and Christ are separate. Let's not get into the whole "three-is-one" paradox)

But there is another school of thought, prevalent in the Greek Orthodox tradition I believe, that effectively states that Christ faced Satan on the Cross for Humanity's sake , NOT for God's.

So I guess the point of the thread is to debate whether my thesis ( Belief in Satan can help Christians explain away hard theological problems) is right or not.

Note: I am agnostic, hence I use "they" when referring to Christian thinkers.

Post away, peoples!:cool:

Nice first post, welcome to the forum.

Thank you. I was on NS once before, but got bored. But now I'm back. Huzzah!:D

1) The theodicy question: i.e. Why do bad things happen to good people, or why is there evil in the world at all?

A possible answer without invoking Satan could be that humans are not 100%good creatures; which is necessary if one considers free will to be important. If after all there is no possibility for doing wrong, how can one actually make the choice to do right ?

Another one is assuming there actually are no such things as "Good" and "Evil" - just actions that can be perceived to be beneficial, detrimental or bloody stupid depending on who you ask. This however is not a popular view with most Christians, since accepting this can lead to concluding that someone who opposes God is not by definition "wrong" or "evil".

But then again, you run in to a theological problem with the first one by tracing the source of evil to Satan. A cosmic war with Satan, aside from contradicting the Old Testament, raises the devil to equality with God in the sense that he is equally capable of intervening in human affairs and also implies that God is not omnipotent due to his inability to control the devil.

This concept of dualism contradicts the notion of an omnipotent God in favor of two Gods reflecting the concepts of good and evil. Interestingly, this system is extremely similar to Zoroastrianism; the Angra Mainyu/Spenta Mainyu dualist concept in particular.

It's impossible to have to opposing omnipotent beings. They'd be locked in eternal combat with neither being able to do anything else, because if they diverted even a fraction of their attention they would lose.

1) puts satan as powerful as god. is god all powerful or isnt he? how did satan get all this power to override god's will? why would god be unable to defeat satan at this level when he was able to defeat him in heaven?

2)if christ was opposing satan on the croos and if satan is STILL causing problems on earth, then christ failed in his effort. not quite worth worshipping.

C.S. Lewis used to say that " Satan is not the opposite of God but of Michael"

And the theodicy question and the alternative to Atonement theology aren't necessarily related. Just because it resolves one problem doesn't mean it resolves the other.

Good question.

C.S. Lewis used to say that " Satan is not the opposite of God but of Michael".

Even that explanation still has major problems. Now, assuming Satan was an angel that rebelled against God and was cast in to Hell by God as punishment where he became the counterpart to Michael, the question is raised:

Where did Hell come from? Was it created by God specifically for Satan, or did it exist beforehand and Satan was sent there? If God created Hell, then he would have direct or at least implicit involvement in the creation of evil...and if he didn't, it would have had to be created by someone or something else, which implies either a second god of evil or the existence of evil as a timeless force identical to that of God and ultimately independent of him...with the result being that God is not omnipotent, a contradiction of his nature.

Generally, free will seems to be the best explanation of the theodicy question; however, it still does not resolve the origin of evil. Personally, I feel the best explanation for evil is simply that it is the lack of good, much like hatred is the lack of love or total darkness is the absence of light.

I'd disagree with your point that Satan is just as likely an existence as God. From a largely Pantheist approach, I find the idea of a single God to be a possibility, but not in such a way as to allow there to be anything that is not subordinate to it. That just seems totally ridiculous to me; how can Satan as an influence on humanity exist and not be itself an aspect of the all-powerful entity that is the ultimate divinity?

If it does exist, it seems logical that it must be an agent of God. That's why people in the west choose not to accept it; they are essentially villianising part of what they worship in doing so.

I'd disagree with your point that Satan is just as likely an existence as God. From a largely Pantheist approach, I find the idea of a single God to be a possibility, but not in such a way as to allow there to be anything that is not subordinate to it. That just seems totally ridiculous to me; how can Satan as an influence on humanity exist and not be itself an aspect of the all-powerful entity that is the ultimate divinity?

If it does exist, it seems logical that it must be an agent of God. That's why people in the west choose not to accept it; they are essentially villianising part of what they worship in doing so.

I'd agree with that. Like I said, I'm agnostic. However, I'm of the opinion that belief in Satan may make life a little easier on Christians in some areas.

That's why fundamentalist denominations are getting so popular. It's so easy being a fundie; you don't have to go through all these existential wrestling matches with your self( that would be heretical) You don't have to search any farther for the truth than the nearest Bible.

I will concede though, I hadn't thought " So if Satan exists that means God created him" since I last read the Inferno.

1) puts satan as powerful as god. is god all powerful or isnt he? how did satan get all this power to override god's will? why would god be unable to defeat satan at this level when he was able to defeat him in heaven?

2)if christ was opposing satan on the croos and if satan is STILL causing problems on earth, then christ failed in his effort. not quite worth worshipping.

1) Satan is not as powerful as God. God is letting Satan meddle on Earth as an example of what happens when we follow the Devil.

2) Jesus didn't die to stop Satan from causing problems on Earth; he died so us poor sinners can go to Heaven.

At least, that's my understanding.

What is interesting is the work of God. God is either not god, or one with wrath. In the mere presence of Satan, it has to be noted that God cannot be omnipotent and benevolent at the same time. If he could destroy evil but wishes not to, then he is not benevolent (if he loves his children so, surely he would have taken away evil and prevented humans from sinning). If he wants to destroy evil but somehow cannot, then he is not omnipotent, and thus not god.

Satan seems as the most humanised character. I have John Milton's Paradise, and if you ever read that it shows Satan's character in a fairly pitiable light - he was the expected person to take over should God decide to lower his superiority, but he also felt in ways betrayed, and now seeking revenge through us. Perhaps God is omnipotent, in that Satan cannot affect God directly, but can, however, corrupt us. In that form, he is damaging God by making worse his prized creations, hence the arrival of the Son.

Now in the Trinity, if the son and God were of the same being (As God in Human form is seen as Jesus), then the death of Jesus Christ is not the death of one person, but the finished acts of God on the earth, and thus his involvement is done. However, this has some contradictions in itself - if God was truly omniscient, why would he purge every human is sin and then leave them to sin again? Would it be logical to purge them of sin, and end the world or restart it so that they would be able to be with God, and not given another chance to sin again? People may also raise the question of whether God was testing to see if people are worthy of being with God, and that raises another interesting question.

Why would God create a creature that did not love him if he wanted one who did? It would be like wanting a really good computer, having all the parts and skill needed, and then purposely making a bad one for some obscure reason.

Plus, Satan is an interesting character. It is by my theory that Satan has little to no involvement in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Let's assume the scenario that Satan wants souls to go to hell, henceforth he would have tried to avoided Jesus to be crucified, would he not? Because through Christ God forgives and cleans everyone of their original sin (From Adam and Eve), and thus nobody goes to Hell, leaving Satan extremely weak. That could be God's initial purpose, to free everyone from sin and thus no longer allow Satan any weapons on which to use against God, but why did God end it so there is no further chance for corruption? Did the deity forget?

Hmm, that's my two cents.

1) Satan is not as powerful as God. God is letting Satan meddle on Earth as an example of what happens when we follow the Devil.

2) Jesus didn't die to stop Satan from causing problems on Earth; he died so us poor sinners can go to Heaven.

At least, that's my understanding.
it was not MY supposition, it was in the OP.

and god letting satan meddle with humanity is on a par with me letting my cat play with the lizards she catches but never quite kills. its sick.

Even that explanation still has major problems. Now, assuming Satan was an angel that rebelled against God and was cast in to Hell by God as punishment where he became the counterpart to Michael, the question is raised:

Where did Hell come from? Was it created by God specifically for Satan, or did it exist beforehand and Satan was sent there? If God created Hell, then he would have direct or at least implicit involvement in the creation of evil...and if he didn't, it would have had to be created by someone or something else, which implies either a second god of evil or the existence of evil as a timeless force identical to that of God and ultimately independent of him...with the result being that God is not omnipotent, a contradiction of his nature.


Actually, i think it has been agreed by many theists now that hell is not a place which is created. It is just a place without God: Death. I don't actually think that hell is actually a massive lake of fire, in the bible it is mainly refered to as seperation from God, and any vague reference to fire etc.. is probably just the equivilant to how bad it feels to be seperated from god.

1) The theodicy question: i.e. Why do bad things happen to good people, or why is there evil in the world at all?

Their answer: It's not that God is callous or ruthless, He is just engaged in a cosmic war with Satan; when inexplicable things happen( natural disasters etc.) it is Satan who is behind it.That would suggest God is not all powerfull.
If God is omnipotent, then any evil flowing from Satan does so with God's implicit blessing. And one can only assume that somehow Satan serves God's purpose in the universe.

My 3 cents on some of things brought up.
Sin has bad consequences so as long as we keep sinning we can expect this "fallen" world to have a lot of bad things going on.
I think its one of the Timothy's that talk of Christ deleying his return so that more people can believe. Just dying for sin and taking everyone to heaven would take away any decision we make to obey God and thus free will.

Aside from the consequences of sin that make the world painful, I believe Satan is part of some but not all pain. For example, I think he will cause bad things to happen to people so that they will blame God. Satan is not the cause of evil, but helps it along. This is easy because we like darkness a lot more than light.

Finally, I think Satan was somewhat involved in Christs cruzifixion. After all, the "murderer from the beginning" had been trying to destroy the seed sent to destroy himself starting with Abel. He probobly thought he'd won until Jesus rose from the dead :) This is much more in depth than i'm writing but this post is long enough

My opinion is simple; God has a agenda with Satan. Also, By removing the corruption, you have removed free choice. Also there are some small sects of Christanity that believe the world was remade after the cruxifiction.

My opinion is simple; God has a agenda with Satan. Also, By removing the corruption, you have removed free choice. Also there are some small sects of Christanity that believe the world was remade after the cruxifiction.

My opinion is simple; God has a agenda with Satan. Also, By removing the corruption, you have removed free choice. Also there are some small sects of Christanity that believe the world was remade after the cruxifiction.
They didn't like the upholstery, drapes, and damning literature ... henceforth, the "inerrant word of god" became the "affable translation of god".

The title of this thread makes me laugh. I think Atheist arguments are silly.

Personally, I've always thought of the existence of evil as proof of the existence of God. But this forum can be so sick and twisted that some will think "evil" is subjective, some will deny there is anything "evil", and some have a distorted view of God and call God evil.

And then there's those who will say they think Christians are silly, someone is bound to say "God is silly" which are all arguments in the same mould as "I think your mom is silly."

The title of this thread makes me laugh. I think Atheist arguments are silly.

Personally, I've always thought of the existence of evil as proof of the existence of God. But this forum can be so sick and twisted that some will think "evil" is subjective, some will deny there is anything "evil", and some have a distorted view of God and call God evil.

And then there's those who will say they think Christians are silly, someone is bound to say "God is silly" which are all arguments in the same mould as "I think your mom is silly."
I think Atheist arguments are silly.

someone is bound to say "God is silly" which are all arguments in the same mould as "I think your mom is silly.

So why is it ok for you to talk about my mom and I can't talk about yours?

The title of this thread makes me laugh. I think Atheist arguments are silly.

How so?

Personally, I've always thought of the existence of evil as proof of the existence of God.

How?

But this forum can be so sick and twisted that some will think "evil" is subjective, some will deny there is anything "evil",

Evil is subjective.

and some have a distorted view of God and call God evil.

If by distorted view you mean the Bible then sure, we have a distorted view.

And then there's those who will say they think Christians are silly, someone is bound to say "God is silly" which are all arguments in the same mould as "I think your mom is silly."

I think my IQ just dropped by 5 points.

Personally, I've always thought of the existence of evil as proof of the existence of God. But this forum can be so sick and twisted that some will think "evil" is subjective,

Of course it is. Simple example: slavery. Many generations of people were certain this was perfectly acceptable. The old testament condones it. But our view changed.
In fact - that Jesus revoked some old testament laws and "de-sinnified" some actions is a Christian argument in favour of subjective evil. Something used to be evil, but isn't any more.

some will deny there is anything "evil"
Please give evidence to the contrary.

and some have a distorted view of God and call God evil.

You God likes us to punish women for being raped by either executing them or forcing them to marry their rapist. Read Deuteronomy if you do not believe me.

And then there's those who will say they think Christians are silly, someone is bound to say "God is silly" which are all arguments in the same mould as "I think your mom is silly."
Not really. I can prove my mom exists. Though she is silly.

Actually, i think it has been agreed by many theists now that hell is not a place which is created. It is just a place without God: Death. I don't actually think that hell is actually a massive lake of fire, in the bible it is mainly refered to as seperation from God, and any vague reference to fire etc.. is probably just the equivilant to how bad it feels to be seperated from god.

I actually mentioned something similar to that earlier; the concept that evil and Hell are the absence of good and the absence of God, not existent concepts in themselves. That view seems to answer the theodicy question much better than other, earlier explanations. However, there are still a lot of Biblical literalists and others that do believe in a literal Hell and devil in opposition to God.

German culture has a more benign Devil. He takes an important role in creation: He acts as a counterpart to God, yet fully with God's permission. Faust is probably the best example of this idea. Furthermore, a lot of fairy tales contain characters that manage to either trick the devil or make deals with him that are profitable for both (the main character receiving wealth and a happy life while the devil receives the souls of the wicked antagonists).

Personally, I've always thought of the existence of evil as proof of the existence of God.And why God and not some other deity?

God is one sick motherfucker....and some of these posts prove that.

"Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years!"

Ninth Satanic Statement, The Satanic Bible, Anton Szandor LaVey.

You're missing the real reason that Satan is Christiantity's 'ace in the hole'. God and Satan are playing a cosmic game of 'Good cop, bad cop."

Seriously, if Satan was evil, why is he punishing people who sin, as opposed to rewarding them? That requires doublethink of Orwellian standards.

You know, there is another thread posting very similar questions...I will see if I can find it as it is no longer on the front page