NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1148482090161&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

4 Palestinian children were sent to the border with Israel with toy guns in order to test the IDF's vigiliance. From a distance the 4 youngsters looked like armed militants on their way for an attack and considering the IDF avoids bloodshed at all costs, the children were finally identified after they neared 400 meters from the fence.

When will they begin to care about the lives of their children? I believe it was Golda Meir who said that "there will only be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1148482090161&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

4 Palestinian children were sent to the border with Israel with toy guns in order to test the IDF's vigiliance. From a distance the 4 youngsters looked like armed militants on their way for an attack and considering the IDF avoids bloodshed at all costs, the children were finally identified after they neared 400 meters from the fence.

When will they begin to care about the lives of their children? I believe it was Golda Meir who said that "there will only be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel."

Those kids were very lucky that fence wasn't guarded by US marines.

Those kids were very lucky that fence wasn't guarded by US marines.
Ha!

Those kids were very lucky that fence wasn't guarded by US marines.


cute, lets keep on topic here

considering the IDF avoids bloodshed at all costs

:p :p :p comedy post of the month

Back to main thrust of topic. yes I htink it would be a great step forward if the palestinians tried to just ignore Israel and build up their state for their children.

:p :p :p comedy post of the month


The IDF does not target civilians. The PLO and other terrorist orgs do.

Back to main thrust of topic. yes I htink it would be a great step forward if the palestinians tried to just ignore Israel and build up their state for their children.


If they had a state they could do some building. They should work on getting their leaders to put down their weapons and get them out of those refugee camps and create a state. A little help from their Arab "brothers" wouldn't hurt either.

If they had a state they could do some building. They should work on getting their leaders to put down their weapons and get them out of those refugee camps and create a state. A little help from their Arab "brothers" wouldn't hurt either.

They do have state and you're quite right the oil-rich gulf states could easily afford to do more but then so could Uncle Sam(especially when you consider the billions of $'s he's spending in Iraq)

That's sick, terrible and inexcusable.

The IDF does not target civilians. The PLO and other terrorist orgs do.

:p :p :p comedy post of the month part II

Back to main thrust of topic. yes I htink it would be a great step forward if the palestinians tried to just ignore Israel and build up their state for their children.

how do they ignore a military occupation and a deliberate policy of destoying the palestinian economy? and as for the apartheit wall....

They do have state and you're quite right the oil-rich gulf states could easily afford to do more but then so could Uncle Sam(especially when you consider the billions of $'s he's spending in Iraq)


They don't have a state. Palestine is not a nation. It never was a nation. It could have been if the Arabs accepted the 1947 partition and not invaded to destroy Israel. But they did neither of those things.

Uncle Sam is pissed that all the money he has been giving has gone to Arafats pocket and to bomb making factories by the corrupt PA. The Palestinians need true leadership with the goal of living side by side with Israel.

Nuke 'em all.

The only peace that area will ever see is the peace of death.

They do have state and you're quite right the oil-rich gulf states could easily afford to do more but then so could Uncle Sam(especially when you consider the billions of $'s he's spending in Iraq)
Hey, Uncle Sam would be more willing to fund such construction if we could be sure that what would be constructed was buildings and roads and not guns and bombs. See his point? Let's face it. With every dollar spent on helping muslim states, with the exception of Afghanistan and Iraq, both invaded and rebuilt (somewhat) by the US-led coalition(how do you spell it?), a quarter goes to some xenophobic bomb-wielding nutjob who kills fellow muslims(mostly) as a way of protesting the existance of non-muslims and muslims who don't follow his form of perverted Islam.

They don't have a state. Palestine is not a nation. It never was a nation.

wheras israel is? :confused:

The IDF does not target civilians. The PLO and other terrorist orgs do.

Where the fuck have you been?

I'm guessing Mars.

I don't know that Israel deliberately targets civilians, but they sure as hell don't seem to mind if they blow some up.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1148482090161&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

4 Palestinian children were sent to the border with Israel with toy guns in order to test the IDF's vigiliance. From a distance the 4 youngsters looked like armed militants on their way for an attack and considering the IDF avoids bloodshed at all costs, the children were finally identified after they neared 400 meters from the fence.

When will they begin to care about the lives of their children? I believe it was Golda Meir who said that "there will only be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel."
Nice, and if the Israelis had shot them the press would be raving about Israeli baby killers and totally ignore the Palestinian trickery that kills their children.

They don't have a state. Palestine is not a nation. It never was a nation. It could have been if the Arabs accepted the 1947 partition and not invaded to destroy Israel. But they did neither of those things.

Uncle Sam is pissed that all the money he has been giving has gone to Arafats pocket and to bomb making factories by the corrupt PA. The Palestinians need true leadership with the goal of living side by side with Israel.

What do you call the peice of land and political entity that is governed by the Palestinian authority?

True leadership as demonstrated by George w Bush?

:p :p :p comedy post of the month part II



how do they ignore a military occupation and a deliberate policy of destoying the palestinian economy? and as for the apartheit wall....

I didn't suggest it would be easy but nothing about this situation is ever going to be easy.

I don't belive it is the policy of the governemnt of Israel to destroy the Palestinian economy.

If the "Security Fence" manages to keep the two sides from killing each other then we may just have to put up with it for a bit. After all the Berlin wall didn't last for ever.

Hey, Uncle Sam would be more willing to fund such construction if we could be sure that what would be constructed was buildings and roads and not guns and bombs. See his point? Let's face it. With every dollar spent on helping muslim states, with the exception of Afghanistan and Iraq, both invaded and rebuilt (somewhat) by the US-led coalition(how do you spell it?), a quarter goes to some xenophobic bomb-wielding nutjob who kills fellow muslims(mostly) as a way of protesting the existance of non-muslims and muslims who don't follow his form of perverted Islam.

Uncle Sam has spent a helluva a lot more on DE-struction in that region than construction.

What do you call the peice of land and political entity that is governed by the Palestinian authority?

True leadership as demonstrated by George w Bush?


The Palestinians have a representative in the United Nations but do not have voting rights there because they are not a state. The Palestinian Authority is just that. They are the voice of the Palestinian people. There is no internationally recognized Palestinian state called Palestine. It simply does not exist.

When Israel took the West Bank and Gaza in its defensive Six Day War, they were fighting against Jordan and Egypt. The West Bank was annexed by Jordan follwing the 1948 War of Independance as was Gaza by Egypt.

The Arabs living west of the Jordan River were placed in refugee camps by their Arab "brothers" the Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, and Lebanese; all of whome could have and should have absorbed them into society following their war of aggression against Israel.

I'm guessing Mars.

I don't know that Israel deliberately targets civilians, but they sure as hell don't seem to mind if they blow some up.


Civilian casualties on the Palestinian side results when Palestinian militants fire missiles from civilian populated areas into Israel (happening as we speak) and construct bomb building factories in civilian neighborhoods. This is done purposefully..as was this recent attempt to have these children martyred for the Palestinian cause simply to make Israel look bad.

Civilian casualties on the Israeli side however, occur because Palestinians blow themselves up in public areas with the intent of killing as many CIVILIANS as possible.

Israel does its best to prevent civilian casualties, but when civilians are constantly being used as human shields, it's sort of hard to avoid it.

This isn't Mars; its the real world.

4 Palestinian children were sent to the border with Israel with toy guns in order to test the IDF's vigiliance. From a distance the 4 youngsters looked like armed militants on their way for an attack and considering the IDF avoids bloodshed at all costs, the children were finally identified after they neared 400 meters from the fence.


Are the Palestinians using midgets now? Or do the IDF just need to test their binoculars?

All in all, a pretty fucked up story. Usual day in Israel and Palestinian Territories then.

Civilian casualties on the Palestinian side results when Palestinian militants fire missiles from civilian populated areas into Israel (happening as we speak) and construct bomb building factories in civilian neighborhoods.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3256772,00.html
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1143498864417&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0602/S00441.htm
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1131043729320&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

O RLY?


In addition, I guess the bulldozing of palestinian villages by Israel has nothing to do with it. Oh, and the shutting down of the route that connects the west bank with the gaza strip, starving many palestinians, also doesnt matter.

Are the Palestinians using midgets now? Or do the IDF just need to test their binoculars?

All in all, a pretty fucked up story. Usual day in Israel and Palestinian Territories then.


From a far distance. They were discovered to be children when they were 400 meters away.

I think what you're missing from this post is that the whole point of dressing the children up to be militants with fake guns and all was so that the IDF would mistake them for militants and then if god forbid one was shot, they would cry bloody murder.

That's sick, terrible and inexcusable.
Agreed, they should have just shot the kids and saved the lives of 8 Palestinian parents. Letting armed kids live! Toy guns can be dangerous if you aim them at someone's eye! The bastards!!! :mad:

From a far distance. They were discovered to be children when they were 400 meters away.

I think what you're missing from this post is that the whole point of dressing the children up to be militants with fake guns and all was so that the IDF would mistake them for militants and then if god forbid one was shot, they would cry bloody murder.

Is it at all possible that they were simply kids playing? toy gunsGV, not fake guns.

the jersualem post doesnt say they were dressed as militants.

a non story, kids strayed too close to a tower and got lashed by the soldiers. how many times did this happen in northern ireland?:rolleyes:

Are the Palestinians using midgets now? Or do the IDF just need to test their binoculars?

All in all, a pretty fucked up story. Usual day in Israel and Palestinian Territories then.
They were identified at 400 meters. Beyond that, even with binoculars, it's not going to be easy to distinguish kids armed with plastic guns and adults armed with the real thing.

Of course if the kids had been shot you and other Palestinian supporters would point to articles about it and claim that Israelis routinely shoot palestinian kids for fun. The media, of course, wouldn't report the toy guns.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3256772,00.html
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1143498864417&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0602/S00441.htm
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1131043729320&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

O RLY?


In addition, I guess the bulldozing of palestinian villages by Israel has nothing to do with it. Oh, and the shutting down of the route that connects the west bank with the gaza strip, starving many palestinians, also doesnt matter.

I took a gander at a few of the links; none of which have any proof of any of the accusations. Accusations are exactly all that these links are. The second from jpost is simply a series of accusations by Human Rights Orgs that believe it or not; have an agenda.

The bulldozing is bulldozing of select buildings being used for bomb factories or the homes of suicide bombers. Don't spin it by claiming that "entire villages" are destroyed. That is untrue; just as the claim that there was a massacre in Jenin in the begining of the intifada. It was proven false.

I think what you're missing from this post is that the whole point of dressing the children up to be militants with fake guns and all was so that the IDF would mistake them for militants and then if god forbid one was shot, they would cry bloody murder.

How did I miss the point exactly?

All in all, a pretty fucked up story

No. I didn't miss the point. I got the point and commented on it.

From a far distance. They were discovered to be children when they were 400 meters away.

I think what you're missing from this post is that the whole point of dressing the children up to be militants with fake guns and all was so that the IDF would mistake them for militants and then if god forbid one was shot, they would cry bloody murder.
Yep, like they did with the "massacre" at Jenin. Makes you wonder exactly how many, if any, of the stories of Israeli attrocities are true.

I took a gander at a few of the links; none of which have any proof of any of the accusations. Accusations are exactly all that these links are. The second from jpost is simply a series of accusations by Human Rights Orgs that believe it or not; have an agenda.

Oh great the old "they have an agenda" excuse.

And the people that tell you Israel is awesome DONT have an agenda?

The truth is, Israel commits more atrocities and war crimes than you can imagine. Read up on Rachel Corrie.

Oh great the old "they have an agenda" excuse.

And the people that tell you Israel is awesome DONT have an agenda?

The truth is, Israel commits more atrocities and war crimes than you can imagine. Read up on Rachel Corrie.
St Pancake? Wasn't she killed defending weapons smuggling tunnels hidden under the homes of terrorists? Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Now that this group of children survived, the Palestinians will probably give the next group real guns. :( They'll get their martyrs one way or another.

Oh great the old "they have an agenda" excuse.

And the people that tell you Israel is awesome DONT have an agenda?

The truth is, Israel commits more atrocities and war crimes than you can imagine. Read up on Rachel Corrie.


I know Israel is awesome because I've been there and seen it for myself and make up my own opinion based on FACTS. Maybe yu should stop "listening to what people tell you" and form an opinion on actual events.

As for Rachel Corrie...she put her body in front of a moving bulldozer. Thats no ones fault but her own.

I know Israel is awesome because I've been there and seen it for myself and make up my own opinion based on FACTS. Maybe yu should stop "listening to what people tell you" and form an opinion on actual events.

As for Rachel Corrie...she put her body in front of a moving bulldozer. Thats no ones fault but her own.

Ooooh. Well, shit. Your opinion just validates the whole "Israel is teh shit" argument then. :rolleyes:

When will they begin to care about the lives of their children? I believe it was Golda Meir who said that "there will only be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel."
When Israel gives them the benefit of the doubt and treats them humanely. I know it's difficult that they are electing terrorist organisations to their government, but building walls that cause more isolation and poverty is not a permanent workable measure. Palestinians must be enabled to become prosperous and then their extremism will wane. The wall is seriously damaging the businesses that do operate in Palestine.

I know Israel is awesome because I've been there and seen it for myself and make up my own opinion based on FACTS. Maybe yu should stop "listening to what people tell you" and form an opinion on actual events.

Youre an evil man, then.

Ooooh. Well, shit. Your opinion just validates the whole "Israel is teh shit" argument then. :rolleyes:


I was simply using the same terminology as the previous poster was. Don't need to be nasty. I was saying that I formulated my opinon on Israel with personal experience and by interpreting the facts of the situation. I didn't list any facts because I have done so in previous posts. If you need any factual information about the information I can give it to you if you'd like. I'm all ears.

When Israel gives them the benefit of the doubt and treats them humanely. I know it's difficult that they are electing terrorist organisations to their government, but building walls that cause more isolation and poverty is not a permanent workable measure. Palestinians must be enabled to become prosperous and then their extremism will wane. The wall is seriously damaging the businesses that do operate in Palestine.

As well as the fact that most palestinians can't use major roads in their country, face road blocks and barriers. In such a small area, with such restrictions, an economy will never develop and poverty will only continue. That, and occupation and colonialism, is a perfect breeding ground for terrorism.

A free state based on the 67 borders would undermine the argument of the terrorists quickly, though, methinks.

When Israel gives them the benefit of the doubt and treats them humanely. I know it's difficult that they are electing terrorist organisations to their government, but building walls that cause more isolation and poverty is not a permanent workable measure. Palestinians must be enabled to become prosperous and then their extremism will wane. The wall is seriously damaging the businesses that do operate in Palestine.


And there would be no wall if the Palestinians would stop infiltrating into Israel to blow up civilians. The security risk is too great. The wall is not permanent. If the Palestinians lay down their guns the wall would be dismantled.

Israel has given them the benefit of the doubt on the many occasions that Israel offered peace and a state to the Palestinians (Oslo, 2000 Camp David Accords).

As for Palestinian prosperity; if their government had stopped using internationial aid to finance its war against Israel and put it to nation building, the Palestinians would be extremely prosperous. Also, helping to train their youth to be workers and good citizens rather than militants wouldn't hurt either.

The IDF does not target civilians. The PLO and other terrorist orgs do.

I'm afraid that you are incorrect on that score. I find the article remarkably short on detail. It has about it a certain odour.......


They don't have a state. Palestine is not a nation..

Correct.


It never was a nation. ..

Neither was America, when you think about it. Thats not really a useful charge to throw about, as it could apply to large swathes of the planet.


It could have been if the Arabs accepted the 1947 partition and not invaded to destroy Israel. But they did neither of those things...

Yep, not a bright idea in hindsight. However Japan, Germany, and a multitude of others have done far far worse things, and far more often and yet they are allowed self-determination.


The Arabs living west of the Jordan River were placed in refugee camps by their Arab "brothers" the Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, and Lebanese; all of whome could have and should have absorbed them into society following their war of aggression against Israel....

They were placed in refugee camps because they were refugees....


Israel does its best to prevent civilian casualties, but when civilians are constantly being used as human shields, it's sort of hard to avoid it.....

Yet European and American volunteers actually act as human shields to protect them from the 'humanitarian attentions' of the IDF and settlers. Children have to be escorted to school to help prevent Israeli fire. Why is that?


I took a gander at a few of the links; none of which have any proof of any of the accusations. Accusations are exactly all that these links are. The second from jpost is simply a series of accusations by Human Rights Orgs that believe it or not; have an agenda......

As a matter of curiosity, might I ask what "agenda" Amnesty international and Human Rights Watch have?


The media, of course, wouldn't report the toy guns.......

Yet the same media reported some Palestinians celebrating the NYC attacks, in the incident you will inevitably whine about when the holes in your threadbare argument begin to show. Surely thats a bit inconsistent on their part?

Youre an evil man, then.
That's a non sequitur.

I was simply using the same terminology as the previous poster was. Don't need to be nasty. I was saying that I formulated my opinon on Israel with personal experience and by interpreting the facts of the situation. I didn't list any facts because I have done so in previous posts. If you need any factual information about the information I can give it to you if you'd like. I'm all ears.

Ok, what exactly are the 'facts' that make Israel AWESOME (or any other country for that matter?)?

One can form an equally valid opinion by paying attnetion to the news, reading history and researching from objective materials (albeit objective is hard to find in suchs cases as Is/Pal.)

I said the original story was fucked up, and I am not defending the actions of anyone. Yet you say that innocent people who are murdered by the military, deserve it because it is their 'own fault'?

No sir, it is the fault of the soldier that pulls the trigger, not the victim.

That's a non sequitur.

Im just saying, an evil man thinks an evil nation does good.

<snip>


Yet the same media reported some Palestinians celebrating the NYC attacks, in the incident you will inevitably whine about when the holes in your threadbare argument begin to show. Surely thats a bit inconsistent on their part?
1) I've never whined about it. I gave it as the reason why I went from sympathizing with the plight of the common palestinian to not caring if they're exterminated.

2) The media is not a monolithic entity. Some media outlets pander less to left or right wing cause than others.

St Pancake? Wasn't she killed defending weapons smuggling tunnels hidden under the homes of terrorists? Good riddance to bad rubbish.


Could you perhaps provide a link to a news article (reputable and mainstream please) reporting where the IDF discovered the tunnel in that particular house and the weapons etc?

Im just saying, an evil man thinks an evil nation does good.
Well it's not an evil nation.

1) I've never whined about it. I gave it as the reason why I went from sympathizing with the plight of the common palestinian to not caring if they're exterminated. .

Yep, thats being a whiner.


2) The media is not a monolithic entity. Some media outlets pander less to left or right wing cause than others..[/QUOTE]

Why didnt you specify that earlier? It was all "the media" a moment ago.

Ok, what exactly are the 'facts' that make Israel AWESOME (or any other country for that matter?)?

There are a few; if you wanna be more specific, go right ahead; i'll be happy to answer.

I said the original story was fucked up, and I am not defending the actions of anyone. Yet you say that innocent people who are murdered by the military, deserve it because it is their 'own fault'?

No sir, it is the fault of the soldier that pulls the trigger, not the victim.

No it's not the innocents fault. The death of innocents on both sides is deplorable, however, Palestinian militants use civilian neighborhoods as cover and civlians as shields while they attack Israel. The blood is on the hands of the Militants using the civlians as shields; not on the civilians themselves.

Could you perhaps provide a link to a news article (reputable and mainstream please) reporting where the IDF discovered the tunnel in that particular house and the weapons etc?
In truth, on the day she died, March 16, 2003, Corrie and other International Solidarity Movement recruits repeatedly obstructed Israeli military bulldozers working along the Gaza-Egyptian border. In this area, the Israel Defense Forces frequently uncovered tunnels used for weapons smuggling.



Bulldozers razed not only buildings that hid tunnel entrances but also structures that served as cover for snipers and as storage for contraband ammunition. In addition, the bulldozers destroyed buildings to detonate explosives planted by Palestinian terrorists.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/12/AR2006051201746.html

That's from the Washington Post, not times. The Washington times is a right wing rag, the post is a reputable newspaper.

Rachel Corrie was assisting terrorists and got killed. I'd like to buy that bulldozer driver a drink.

And there would be no wall if the Palestinians would stop infiltrating into Israel to blow up civilians. The security risk is too great. The wall is not permanent. If the Palestinians lay down their guns the wall would be dismantled.

THere would be no Palestinians going into Israel if Palestine was its own state.

Israel has given them the benefit of the doubt on the many occasions that Israel offered peace and a state to the Palestinians (Oslo, 2000 Camp David Accords).

The Israeli government has shitted all over the Oslo Accords, and been allowed to get away with it. They were meant to remove all the settlements. Have they? No. Have they built more? Yes. All their offers have been designed to take Palestinian land, like East Jerusalem, and keep it in their hands. Would you have a foreign power insist on taking Florida, New York or California? No.

As for Palestinian prosperity; if their government had stopped using internationial aid to finance its war against Israel and put it to nation building, the Palestinians would be extremely prosperous. Also, helping to train their youth to be workers and good citizens rather than militants wouldn't hurt either.

What international aid? It's all been cut. But I get the point. However, the Israeli government is the gatekeeper, and holds all the keys, and is the only one that can really take the initative.

Yep, thats being a whiner.

.

Why didnt you specify that earlier? It was all "the media" a moment ago.
1) No, it's not being a whiner, it's giving a reason for my feelins toward palestinians.

2) Excuse me for using an easy euphamism so I don't have to type long disclaimers along with every post.

3) Remind me to slap your momma when I get home.

There are a few; if you wanna be more specific, go right ahead; i'll be happy to answer.
Yeah, knock yourself out. I'd love hear what makes Israel AWESOME (thereby ushering in a lovely tirade from everyone else about how their country is even MORE AWESOME)



No it's not the innocents fault. The death of innocents on both sides is deplorable, however, Palestinian militants use civilian neighborhoods as cover and civlians as shields while they attack Israel. The blood is on the hands of the Militants using the civlians as shields; not on the civilians themselves.

And the journalists and aid workers.... they were being used as human shields too right? Even while wearing luminous jackets to identify themselves, and wearing flack jackets with TV taped onto their front and back....

human shields too?

Well it's not an evil nation.

An evil man thinks an evil nation does good.

An evil man thinks an evil nation does good.
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/12/AR2006051201746.html

That's from the Washington Post, not times. The Washington times is a right wing rag, the post is a reputable newspaper.

Rachel Corrie was assisting terrorists and got killed. I'd like to buy that bulldozer driver a drink.


Thats a lovely opinion piece but not what I asked for. You said quite sepecifically "Wasn't she killed defending weapons smuggling tunnels hidden under the homes of terrorists? Good riddance to bad rubbish." The article says "In this area, the Israel Defense Forces frequently uncovered tunnels used for weapons smuggling". It does not say that the house she was defending had a tunnell under it, or that weapons were discovered in that house. Its merely a generalised statement. You were far more specific.

Yep, not a bright idea in hindsight. However Japan, Germany, and a multitude of others have done far far worse things, and far more often and yet they are allowed self-determination.

We aren't talking about any of these places; we are talking about Palestinians. They have a right to self determination; just as long as they aren't killing anyone to have it. pali self determination will come from diplomacy and dialogue; not suicide bombings


They were placed in refugee camps because they were refugees....

They became refugees when their Arab "brothers" invaded Israel with hopes of annihilation and then annexed what would have been a Palestinian state. So really; there would have been no refugees had the Arabs not invaded.

Yet European and American volunteers actually act as human shields to protect them from the 'humanitarian attentions' of the IDF and settlers. Children have to be escorted to school to help prevent Israeli fire. Why is that?

They are escorted by Israeli soldiers!! lol And the settlers come under attack from Palis all the time (recently an Arab hitchhiker was picked up by two "evil" settlers who were "evil" enough to give him a ride to where he needed to go...he blew himself up in the car killing everyone inside).

As a matter of curiosity, might I ask what "agenda" Amnesty international and Human Rights Watch have?

They have never been fair to Israel; neither has the UN.

1
3) Remind me to slap your momma when I get home.

I'm glad to see that the arts and phillosophy in America are so well loved by the right. Truly the intellectual future of the US is in good hands.

Thats a lovely opinion piece but not what I asked for. You said quite sepecifically "Wasn't she killed defending weapons smuggling tunnels hidden under the homes of terrorists? Good riddance to bad rubbish." The article says "In this area, the Israel Defense Forces frequently uncovered tunnels used for weapons smuggling". It does not say that the house she was defending had a tunnell under it, or that weapons were discovered in that house. Its merely a generalised statement. You were far more specific.
Yep, keep being pedantic. It's almost as nice as being right.

I'm glad to see that the arts and phillosophy in America are so well loved by the right. Truly the intellectual future of the US is in good hands.
The right? I'm actually considered a liberal. Oh, and you keep accusing me of whining I'll just keep the conversation on that pointless level.

We aren't talking about any of these places; we are talking about Palestinians..

So they deserve to be singled out?


They have a right to self determination; just as long as they aren't killing anyone to have it. pali self determination will come from diplomacy and dialogue; not suicide bombings..

But the occupation predates the worst of the violence and the phenomena of the suicide bomber.


They became refugees when their Arab "brothers" invaded Israel with hopes of annihilation and then annexed what would have been a Palestinian state. So really; there would have been no refugees had the Arabs not invaded.
..

Perhaps, but men from the Irgun had as much to do with it as invading Arabs.


They are escorted by Israeli soldiers!! lol And the settlers come under attack from Palis all the time (recently an Arab hitchhiker was picked up by two "evil" settlers who were "evil" enough to give him a ride to where he needed to go...he blew himself up in the car killing everyone inside)...

Christian peace keeper teams, NGOs etc. And why do UN workers keep getting shot?



They have never been fair to Israel; neither has the UN.

So they shoot the workers? But I didnt aske you whether it was fair or not. I asked you (quite genuinely) what is their agenda? Or what is their agenda according to you, if you prefer it put that way.

THere would be no Palestinians going into Israel if Palestine was its own state.

Palestinians curently live in land that is disputed that will eventally be a Palestinian state. Why do they need to go to Israel? Let them build up their own nation and economy just as the Jews did.

The Israeli government has shitted all over the Oslo Accords, and been allowed to get away with it. They were meant to remove all the settlements. Have they? No. Have they built more? Yes. All their offers have been designed to take Palestinian land, like East Jerusalem, and keep it in their hands. Would you have a foreign power insist on taking Florida, New York or California? No.

There were more terrorist attacks insid Israel the 5 years following Oslo than the 15 years before it combined.

international aid? It's all been cut. But I get the point. However, the Israeli government is the gatekeeper, and holds all the keys, and is the only one that can really take the initative.

I was speaking about the aid prior to the Hamas takeover; in order to recieve aid, Hamas needs to renounce its charter which calls for the destruction of Israel (even tho they don't recognize it) and they need to put their weapons down.

The Palestinians need to take the initiative to form a state. Israel has been waiing for them to take this initiative since its inception. Israels borders are closed to illegals just as every other country. They just need to be extra careful because in this case their neigbors try to blow themselves up all the time.

When will they begin to care about the lives of their children? I believe it was Golda Meir who said that "there will only be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel."

It is possible you are falsely assuming that this has to do with lack of love. In some culture it is simply so that the "honour" of the family as a whole is considered more important than the lives of individual members. Being chosen to perform services to increase the family reputation -like risking your life - is then a great honour.
As a secondary benefit, sending in a child means you risk less loss of family strength then when sending the most honored elder - and the child is less likely to receive as great a punishment as an adult would.

These are not my morals; but who am I to say they are inferior to our western ones ?

So they deserve to be singled out?

In this thread...yes!

But the occupation predates the worst of the violence and the phenomena of the suicide bomber.

Arab hostility toward Israel (48 war, 57 suez campaign and various other attacks) and the Jews of Palestine (1929 Hebron and Sefad massacres, amongst others) predates occupation.

Perhaps, but men from the Irgun had as much to do with it as invading Arabs.

Not true; Palestinian Arabs fled either willingly or were told to do so; the only ones forced to leave (i.e. ramleh and lyyda) were forced to do so because they held strategic points along the tel aviv jerusalem highway that if controlled by arabs, would have made jerusalem impossible to defend. either that or they surrounded jewish populations that woul dhave been massacred if left surrounded by arabs.

Christian peace keeper teams, NGOs etc. And why do UN workers keep getting shot?

IDF soliders take Palestinians to school. Which workers are getting shot? Examples?

So they shoot the workers? But I didnt aske you whether it was fair or not. I asked you (quite genuinely) what is their agenda? Or what is their agenda according to you, if you prefer it put that way.

They don't shoot workers. Their leftist agenda is to make Israel look like the aggressor and not the victim. Whether this is done purposely or if they are blinded by propoganda, I do not know.

Yep, keep being pedantic. It's almost as nice as being right.

Pedantry has nothing to do with it. Theres a big difference in being in an area where a murder has taken place and being involved in a murder. You made a specific allegation which, if its true, casts rather a different light on the late ms corries activities. You should at least be able to back it up.


Oh, and you keep accusing me of whining I'll just keep the conversation on that pointless level..

To be honest, theres little difference to be noticed. "broad troll-like statement, offend the liberals remark" tends to consitute a lot of what you post, until you tire of the flack, give out the "Waaah, they danced at NYC" justification and trot off into the sunset. Its almost chartable by graph. Go as suits you, I say.

It is possible you are falsely assuming that this has to do with lack of love. In some culture it is simply so that the "honour" of the family as a whole is considered more important than the lives of individual members. Being chosen to perform services to increase the family reputation -like risking your life - is then a great honour.
As a secondary benefit, sending in a child means you risk less loss of family strength then when sending the most honored elder - and the child is less likely to receive as great a punishment as an adult would.

These are not my morals; but who am I to say they are inferior to our western ones ?


These children are not risking their lives. They are being told to walk up to the Israeli border dressed as militants in order to be shot to be used as a propoganda tool.

As for the young suicide bombers, which there have been many of...all I can say is that it should be against everyones morals to send children, or adults for that matter into crowded cafes to blow people up.

Tom Hurndall (http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,3604,1128176,00.html)

James Miller (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/4883442.stm)

Palestinians curently live in land that is disputed that will eventally be a Palestinian state. Why do they need to go to Israel? Let them build up their own nation and economy just as the Jews did.

Umm.... "by build up their own nation and economy just as the Jews did" do you mean take over it? Because thats what the Jews did, they may not have used guns or weapons to take over Israel, but anytime 600,000 people move into a region it is a take over.

So by using your own words, your suggesting that all the Palestinians who were displaced by the massive influx of Jews should just move back in?

Not to be rude to the Jews but why on earth would you move to territory that is A) too small to fit your numbers and B) Hates you for not being of the same religion.

Pedantry has nothing to do with it. Theres a big difference in being in an area where a murder has taken place and being involved in a murder. You made a specific allegation which, if its true, casts rather a different light on the late ms corries activities. You should at least be able to back it up.



To be honest, theres little difference to be noticed. "broad troll-like statement, offend the liberals remark" tends to consitute a lot of what you post, until you tire of the flack, give out the "Waaah, they danced at NYC" justification and trot off into the sunset. Its almost chartable by graph. Go as suits you, I say.
Nice tactic. You're going to send me out looking for old articles to keep me busy and use my silence in the mean time to try to discredit me. Sorry, I'm not as dumb as you are dishonest.

And accusing me of whining? Simply a lie. A false accusation. I was giving a reason for my feelings, not whining.

You're just upset because your pet murderers have been revealed for what they are. Liars. I guess that's why you like them. You admire that level of dishonesty and aspire to be like them.

Palestinians curently live in land that is disputed that will eventally be a Palestinian state. Why do they need to go to Israel? Let them build up their own nation and economy just as the Jews did.

I and several others posted why. When the jews founded Israel, they weren't occupied by anyone, and had the necessary freedoms and rights for an ecomomy to function. Plus, the Palestinians don't have America's help.

There were more terrorist attacks insid Israel the 5 years following Oslo than the 15 years before it combined.

Thus justifiying continuing the actions that rally people to the bombers' causes?

I was speaking about the aid prior to the Hamas takeover; in order to recieve aid, Hamas needs to renounce its charter which calls for the destruction of Israel (even tho they don't recognize it) and they need to put their weapons down.

Some Hamas members have already called for this, and they have called a ceasefire after the election. Hamas would lose any credibility it has about the 'destroy Israel' issue if Palestine were independent - because Palestinians would be focusing on building their own country, for once, and not on independence from Israel.

The Palestinians need to take the initiative to form a state. Israel has been waiing for them to take this initiative since its inception. Israels borders are closed to illegals just as every other country. They just need to be extra careful because in this case their neigbors try to blow themselves up all the time.

Palestine has the Palestinian Authority, which could at least serve as a body to govern an independent Palestine while a convention drew up a permanant constitution.

Secondly, Israel is occupying this territory. During the initial occupation of Iraq, Iraqis had civil liberties equal to those of the occupying forces. Why does Israel not apply this same 'hospitality' to Palestine - before the terrorists existed?

These children are not risking their lives. They are being told to walk up to the Israeli border dressed as militants in order to be shot to be used as a propoganda tool.

As for the young suicide bombers, which there have been many of...all I can say is that it should be against everyones morals to send children, or adults for that matter into crowded cafes to blow people up.

WHERE DOES IT SAY THEY WERE DRESSED AS MILITANTS?

this debate is divise enough without resorting to fantasy

it doesnt say who sent these kids to the post? the kids were presumably dressed as militants or the israeli paper would have reported it. they had toy guns.

so ill ask, again,is it beyond the realm of possibility that they were kids playing 400 yards from an idf position and there is no sinister element to this story whatsoever?

or would that not suit the israeli propaganda machine that wishes to dehumanise the palestinain people as not caring for their own children?

In this thread...yes!.

We are talking about the right to self determination. To avoid Herr Shickelgruber we can just use the excesses of the Japanese as an example. The Japanese were utterly defeated, and yet were conceded the right to determine their own futrure, as were all the axis powers that were in Western hands. Sauce for the goose should be as good for the gander.


Arab hostility toward Israel (48 war, 57 suez campaign and various other attacks) and the Jews of Palestine (1929 Hebron and Sefad massacres, amongst others).!.

But they involved either Arab states or ethnic violence within the area that was to become Israel. How does that justify the IDF outside Israeli borders since 1967?


Not true; Palestinian Arabs fled either willingly or were told to do so; the only ones forced to leave (i.e. ramleh and lyyda) were forced to do so because they held strategic points along the tel aviv jerusalem highway that if controlled by arabs, would have made jerusalem impossible to defend. either that or they surrounded jewish populations that woul dhave been massacred if left surrounded by arabs.).!.

750,000 left, one way or another - usually the other, via the man at the door with a gun. And no, they weren't asked back. I'm not nessecarily getting on the high horse about it, but it happened. I suggest you read Benny Morris.


They don't shoot workers. .).!.

13 or so since 2000.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/4534620.stm



Their leftist agenda is to make Israel look like the aggressor and not the victim. Whether this is done purposely or if they are blinded by propoganda, I do not know.

As an occupier, and the people with the helicopters tanks, planes, APCs and nuclear weapons, Israel is most certainly the aggressor. You may also have not noticed the articles condemning the various palestinian groups. I suggest you look.

And what is this "leftist agenda"?

And what is this "leftist agenda"?

Anyone to the left of Pat Robertson.

No where does it say they were dressed up as militants, only that they had toy guns.

Also what about this "And only Monday, a Palestinian was shot and killed by IDF soldiers after they identified three men near the fence and fired at them, suspecting they intended to carry out an attack."

Why can they shoot someone because they "think" he was going to carry out an attack? If you could "tell" who was going to carry out an attack then terrorists wouldn't be effective. The guard who shot the man thought that just because he is Palesinian he MUST be going to attack something...

And there would be no wall if the Palestinians would stop infiltrating into Israel to blow up civilians. The security risk is too great. The wall is not permanent. If the Palestinians lay down their guns the wall would be dismantled.

Israel has given them the benefit of the doubt on the many occasions that Israel offered peace and a state to the Palestinians (Oslo, 2000 Camp David Accords).

As for Palestinian prosperity; if their government had stopped using internationial aid to finance its war against Israel and put it to nation building, the Palestinians would be extremely prosperous. Also, helping to train their youth to be workers and good citizens rather than militants wouldn't hurt either.
I agree with everything you've said here. The Palestinians are doing terrible things. But we're fooling ourselves if we think that they're going to just lay down their guns one day. As the more powerful partner, Israel must do something.

Nice tactic. You're going to send me out looking for old articles to keep me busy and use my silence in the mean time to try to discredit me. Sorry, I'm not as dumb as you are dishonest. .

I'm heading off for about two hours. Take your time. No rush. And all credit for discrediting is actually yours.


And accusing me of whining? Simply a lie. A false accusation. I was giving a reason for my feelings, not whining. .

I believe you. Honestly.

No. Really. I do.

You're just upset because your pet murderers have been revealed for what they are. Liars. I guess that's why you like them. You admire that level of dishonesty and aspire to be like them.

"broad troll-like statement, offend the liberals remark" tends to consitute a lot of what you post'

A case of if the shoe fits....?

Why can they shoot someone because they "think" he was going to carry out an attack? If you could "tell" who was going to carry out an attack then terrorists wouldn't be effective. The guard who shot the man thought that just because he is Palesinian he MUST be going to attack something...

Same reason why we killed an innocent guy on the Tube last year.

Anyone to the left of Pat Robertson.


Wow... nice one.... use someone who hates anyone who isn't a Christian male. I mean anyone who thinks they can steer hurricanes with prayer and that feminism is the tool of the devil must be someone to use as a role model...

*cough* white christian bigot *cough*

Wow... nice one.... use someone who hates anyone who isn't a Christian male. I mean anyone who thinks they can steer hurricanes with prayer and that feminism is the tool of the devil must be someone to use as a role model...

*cough* white christian bigot *cough*

I was being sarcastic, dude.

Then sorry.... I just really hate Pat Robertson....
:mad: :mp5:
^Pat ^ anyone who wants to do the world a big favor

They have never been fair to Israel; neither has the UN.
Being unfair to Israel isn't really an agenda. Why would they be unfair to Israel? Their job is to campaign against governments committing human rights violations. you expect them to give Israel a free pass because they're "defensive".

They don't shoot workers. Their leftist agenda is to make Israel look like the aggressor and not the victim. Whether this is done purposely or if they are blinded by propoganda, I do not know.
AI isn't a leftist organisation. It's hard to believe your story about Israel being the victim when it has the strongest military and the best economy in the region, and is endlessly supported by the biggest military power in the world.

These are not my morals; but who am I to say they are inferior to our western ones ?
Relativism is for intellectual jellyfish. If it causes suffering, it's bad. If it causes happiness, it's good. These tactics seem to be more on the suffering end of things.

Then sorry.... I just really hate Pat Robertson....
:mad: :mp5:
^Pat ^ anyone who wants to do the world a big favor

Imagine if he did get to be President in '88...

I'm heading off for about two hours. Take your time. No rush. And all credit for discrediting is actually yours.



I believe you. Honestly.

No. Really. I do.


"broad troll-like statement, offend the liberals remark" tends to consitute a lot of what you post'

A case of if the shoe fits....?
I've already posted an article showing
1) The IDF was knocking down houses that hid smuggling tunnels at the time and in the place St. Pancake killed herself.

2) She stood in the way of one of the IDF's bulldozers to protest the destruction of those houses.

That means she basically died to protect the terrorist's smuggling tunnels. What's so hard to understand about that? Fuck it. Keep on nitpicking. Keep on asking for more and more evidence. You'll never see what's actually happening because you're blinded by your ideology.

I agree with everything you've said here. The Palestinians are doing terrible things. But we're fooling ourselves if we think that they're going to just lay down their guns one day. As the more powerful partner, Israel must do something.

It has, several times. It keeps making offers and the Paliestians keep rejecting them. It gave them almost everythign they wanted in the Clinton Barrack proposals. The only thing the Palistians had to give up was the right to return, which most reasonable commentators on the issue accept was an unreasonable demand in the first place.

Effective tactic. Children often make the best scouts and soldiers.

Immoral? Probably. Still, effective.

and considering the IDF avoids bloodshed at all costs,
rofl! seriously that hilarious. You joking right? You should be a comedian

When will they begin to care about the lives of their children? I believe it was Golda Meir who said that "there will only be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel."
Damn right, arabs are bloody thristy baby killers. Or perhaps they care about there children more than the Israelis. You know the whole dying so they can have a better life thing. Even if they did send them to die perhaps they felt death was a better option than growing up in occupation and oppression. Just a thought.

rofl! seriously that hilarious. You joking right? You should be a comedian

Damn right, arabs are bloody thristy baby killers. Or perhaps they care about there children more than the Israelis. You know the whole dying so they can have a better life thing. Even if they did send them to die perhaps they felt death was a better option than growing up in occupation and oppression. Just a thought.
If Palestinians cared about their children they would stop the terrorism, recognize Israel's right to exist, and negotiate in good faith for better conditions.

It has, several times. It keeps making offers and the Paliestians keep rejecting them. It gave them almost everythign they wanted in the Clinton Barrack proposals. The only thing the Palistians had to give up was the right to return, which most reasonable commentators on the issue accept was an unreasonable demand in the first place.

There have also been proposals from Arab states and Palestine, but it seems that neither is willing to negociate. Both Barak and Arafat walked out of Camp David.

If Palestinians cared about their children they would stop the terrorism, recognize Israel's right to exist, and negotiate in good faith for better conditions.
They cant give up there tactics, they are justified given the circumstances. Israel(IMHO) doesnt have a right to exist. Its hard to negotiate with people who dont recognize the government.

I would add, if Israel cares about its children and didnt want them hurt, they would end the occupation and recognize the Palestinians rights to self determination. I think Israel uses their children as pawns and actually hopes they get blown up so they have an excuse to kill more Arabs. That is of course there goal, to eliminate all arabs.

If Palestinians cared about their children they would stop the terrorism, recognize Israel's right to exist, and negotiate in good faith for better conditions.

Most proabably do, and most would probably want to see terrorism stop. However, people in desperate situations are probably likely to vote for them to make a point, I think.

You can also make the same claim about Israel: If the Israelis cared about Palestinian children, they would end the occupation, missile attacks and grant them their diserved state with the correct borders.

They cant give up there tactics, they are justified given the circumstances. Israel(IMHO) doesnt have a right to exist. Its hard to negotiate with people who dont recognize the government.

Terrorism against civilians is abhorrent, period. I wouldn't have a problem with them attacking Israeli troops, but I do civilians. Second, Israel has a right to exist. Why? Simply because it's there now and where do you house 7 million people if they have to be moved?

The Two State solution, based on the '67 borders is the only way forward.

They cant give up there tactics, they are justified given the circumstances. Israel(IMHO) doesnt have a right to exist. Its hard to negotiate with people who dont recognize the government.

I would add, if Israel cares about its children and didnt want them hurt, they would end the occupation and recognize the Palestinians rights to self determination. I think Israel uses their children as pawns and actually hopes they get blown up so they have an excuse to kill more Arabs. That is of course there goal, to eliminate all arabs.
Israel exists and will not disappear. That's a fact of life. They're the stronger party, they will get their way. It's just a matter of how many Palestinians will die before they realize this and decide to negotiate for peace.

Israel exists and will not disappear. That's a fact of life. They're the stronger party, they will get their way. It's just a matter of how many Palestinians will die before they realize this and decide to negotiate for peace.

They have negociated, many times.

Nuke 'em all.

The only peace that area will ever see is the peace of death


oh dont worry the bible code predicts nuclear holocaust in 2008 in israel

Terrorism against civilians is abhorrent, period. I wouldn't have a problem with them attacking Israeli troops, but I do civilians. Second, Israel has a right to exist. Why? Simply because it's there now and where do you house 7 million people if they have to be moved?

The Two State solution, based on the '67 borders is the only way forward.
Attacks on their civilians is the only thing the Israelis understand, you have to fight fire with fire. Besides most Israeli civilians are immigrants, meaning they came to Israel with knowledge of their policy of oppression, and willing came to support that. Given that, they are fair game for attack.

I cant argue with the fact that Israel is going to exist, they are backed by the US so they are going any where. My point is I dont feel they deserve to be there. And if negoiations are going to taking place, they should as the UN borders of 1948 as the blueprint, not the 67 borders from which Israel gained land through force, in violation of a UN resolution passed that year.

Attacks on their civilians is the only thing the Israelis understand, So you're a bigot too? you have to fight fire with fire. Besides most Israeli civilians are immigrants, meaning they came to Israel with knowledge of their policy of oppression, and willing came to support that. Given that, they are fair game for attack. Long before Israel existed, even in the 1920s Palestinians opressed Jews.

I cant argue with the fact that Israel is going to exist, they are backed by the US so they are going any where.They're also tough SOBs who took on the Arab world single handed and won. More than once too. My point is I dont feel they deserve to be there. Deserve's got nothing to do with it And if negoiations are going to taking place, they should as the UN borders of 1948 as the blueprint, not the 67 borders from which Israel gained land through force, in violation of a UN resolution passed that year.Screw the UN. They're about as useless as a fart in a windstorm and totally biased.

So you're a bigot too?
wow, havent heard this one before. Yes, yes I am. I hate black people, Im an anti-semite, and oh yeah I forgot, a Nazi. Can you tell me what my comment has anything to do with bigotory?

Long before Israel existed, even in the 1920s Palestinians opressed Jews.
So did the Nazis, why should the Palestinians pay for Europe's mistakes? A jewish state has NO place in the middle east. Israel belongs in Europe, siberia, or the sea, pick one.

They're also tough SOBs who took on the Arab world single handed and won.
Whoop dee fuckin do.
Deserve's got nothing to do with itScrew the UN. They're about as useless as a fart in a windstorm and totally biased.
thats the spirit, fuck the rest of the world! Thats basically Israels stance right?

If Palestinians cared about their children they would stop the terrorism, recognize Israel's right to exist, and negotiate in good faith for better conditions.

Riiiiight. Because all Palestinians are terrorists, right? How else could they just suddenly stop? Please extract your head from your rectum.

The ones who care about their children (nearly all of them, I would imagine, since caring about one's children is instinct) don't have the power to stop the one's who don't. The ones who don't care have AK-47s. The ones who do care have rocks.

Oh, and it's also hard to 'negotiate' with someone you've got at gunpoint (figuratively speaking), and expect any positive results.

Those kids were very lucky that fence wasn't guarded by US marines.
Or US cops...

wow, havent heard this one before. Yes, yes I am. I hate black people, Im an anti-semite, and oh yeah I forgot, a Nazi. Can you tell me what my comment has anything to do with bigotory?
Your claim that attacks on civilians is all Israelis understand seems bigoted to me. I kind of feel that way about palestinians, so that's why I said "You're a bigot too".


So did the Nazis, why should the Palestinians pay for Europe's mistakes? A jewish state has NO place in the middle east. Israel belongs in Europe, siberia, or the sea, pick one. It seemed like a good place at the time. Europeans didn't want Jews about and they did have an ancestral claim to the land. That's why it was chosen. Now it's there, it's not moving.

Whoop dee fuckin do.
Well don't say they're only there because the US backs them. They could defend their land and beat on the neighboring arab states all by themselves.
thats the spirit, fuck the rest of the world! Thats basically Israels stance right?That's basically everybody's stance. Some countries just cover it up better than others.

That's basically everybody's stance. Some countries just cover it up better than others.

I am pleased to see that not everything you post is bullshit, or at least debatable as bullshit.

Attacks on their civilians is the only thing the Israelis understand, you have to fight fire with fire. Besides most Israeli civilians are immigrants, meaning they came to Israel with knowledge of their policy of oppression, and willing came to support that. Given that, they are fair game for attack.

That is absolutely absurd. The Isralies came to the territory of Palestine perfectly legally, and perfectly fairly. They bought land, built communities and did not at all interfeare with the Arabs. For over 40 years they lived in (reletive) peace with their Arab neighboughs and then whenever reasonable offers have been made regarding the two state solution the Palistians have rejected them. They cannot resort to viloence after being offered a peaceful deal and be rewarded with more land, that isnt how the system should work.


I cant argue with the fact that Israel is going to exist, they are backed by the US so they are going any where. My point is I dont feel they deserve to be there. And if negoiations are going to taking place, they should as the UN borders of 1948 as the blueprint, not the 67 borders from which Israel gained land through force, in violation of a UN resolution passed that year.

The Palistianians rejected the 1948 blueprint and resorted to viloence. As for 1967, the Egyptians closed the straits of Tairan to all Isralie shipping. Can you imagine what would happen if for example a fleet of Chinese warships were to blockade ever US port and dock and make it impossible for US shipping to go anywhere. You know exactly what would happen. World War Three. The Isralies were justified in acting the way they did, not to mention the fact that the Arab states armies had been massing on their borders. Add to the fact that the Clinton Barrack proposals gave the Palistians practically everything they wanted in 2000 and they still rejected it. The Paleistians cannot keep resoriting to vilonce or illegal sanctions and expect to be rewarded with more land.

I am pleased to see that not everything you post is bullshit, or at least debatable as bullshit.
Bullshit? I kind of pride myself on being honest to the best of my ability.

I've already posted an article showing
1) The IDF was knocking down houses that hid smuggling tunnels at the time and in the place St. Pancake killed herself.

2) She stood in the way of one of the IDF's bulldozers to protest the destruction of those houses.

That means she basically died to protect the terrorist's smuggling tunnels. What's so hard to understand about that? Fuck it. Keep on nitpicking. Keep on asking for more and more evidence. You'll never see what's actually happening because you're blinded by your ideology.

No, the opinion piece said "on the day she died, March 16, 2003, Corrie and other International Solidarity Movement recruits repeatedly obstructed Israeli military bulldozers working along the Gaza-Egyptian border. In this area, the Israel Defense Forces frequently uncovered tunnels used for weapons smuggling.". Thats a different thing "from defending weapons smuggling tunnels hidden under the homes of terrorists". It tries to imply it (using their brains there) while (being a bit too quick with trying to get the "baiting" comment in) you went out and said something entirely untrue.


It gave them almost everythign they wanted in the Clinton Barrack proposals. The only thing the Palistians had to give up was the right to return, which most reasonable commentators on the issue accept was an unreasonable demand in the first place..

No, as (for instance) the proposals for East Jerusalem were unnaccetable. However the right to return (to within what is now Israel) is both unreasonable and unrealistic at this stage.


recognize Israel's right to exist, and negotiate in good faith for better conditions...

The PLO recognised Israels right to exist and Oslo led to a massive increase in settlement in the West Bank.


The Two State solution, based on the '67 borders is the only way forward....

Entirely true.

They're the stronger party, they will get their way....

Actually its Americas veto which may allow them to "get their way". Which will enevitably lead to more conflict down through the ages.


Long before Israel existed, even in the 1920s Palestinians opressed Jews. ....

There was conflict between immigrants and local Arabs, with attacks upon Jews. As the British were in charge, "oppress" is hardly the correct term.


Screw the UN. They're about as useless as a fart in a windstorm and totally biased.....

Please explain what you mean by the UN being "totally biased".

Bullshit? I kind of pride myself on being honest to the best of my ability.

Then either your abilities are sorely lacking, or you are quite ignorant.

<snip>

Please explain what you mean by the UN being "totally biased".
Every country and every voting bloc in the General Assembly is really only out for itself. Plus the security council members all work toward their own ends.

The Arabs and Europeans routinely condem Israel and confer special status to Palestinian refugees that no other refugee gets. That's mainly to solidify good relations between European nations and Arab ones. China and Russia block Security council action on Iran and Sudan. On many issues the UN is biased because of nations looking after their own interests.

Then either your abilities are sorely lacking, or you are quite ignorant.
Judging from what? You've got a whole 4 posts under your belt. I'm pretty sure you haven't read the bulk of my posts here on NS.

[QUOTE]
Oh. well than I guess under the circumstances we're both bigots.


Arabs didnt want Jews either. And native Americans had ancestral claim to where Im sitting right now. The Palestinians said what I would if say if a native american told me to give him his land back, which is, fuck you. Just because they had the land thousands of years ago gives them no right to the land, that as far as modern history goes, belongs to the Arabs.

sadly

yes, because they are big boys now arent they.


meh, probably true. Israel just does a really bad job of covering it up
Ha, I knew you were a puppet-troll Bobo.

Judging from what? You've got a whole 4 posts under your belt. I'm pretty sure you haven't read the bulk of my posts here on NS.

You are correct. I have not read the bulk of your posts, and therefore my impression of you is based on the ones I have read. I have read enough to feel fairly comfortable in my assessment of you.

You are correct. I have not read the bulk of your posts, and therefore my impression of you is based on the ones I have read. I have read enough to feel fairly comfortable in my assessment of you.
Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, wrong as it may be.

No, as (for instance) the proposals for East Jerusalem were unnaccetable. However the right to return (to within what is now Israel) is both unreasonable and unrealistic at this stage.


I'm not seeing anything unreasonalble from where I'm looking at them. According to the sources I'm reading he gave them full soveirnty over the whole of it. And even if he didnt, given the ammount of land he was giving the Arabs, I think Barrack can be seen as being reasonable for wanting some more of it back

In my view however Jerusalem should be turned into something akin to the vatican.

In my view however Jerusalem should be turned into something akin to the vatican.

I agree. Letting either side keep it, in part or in whole, would only create more conflict. Best to make Jerusalem a sovreign political entity.

Every country and every voting bloc in the General Assembly is really only out for itself. Plus the security council members all work toward their own ends. .

True.


The Arabs and Europeans routinely condem Israel and confer special status to Palestinian refugees that no other refugee gets. That's mainly to solidify good relations between European nations and Arab ones..

No, its because they are in a unique situatuion. And almost the entire General assembly passes these motions on up. Thats a lot more than Europe


China and Russia block Security council action on Iran and Sudan. On many issues the UN is biased because of nations looking after their own interests.

Thats because they're a pack of bastards. Look up some of the resolutions the US has blocked since 1970 and you'll see why they all mingle well at that level.


According to the sources I'm reading he gave them full soveirnty over the whole of it. .

Nope, it was a strange patchwork arrangement, which leaving aside the question of who should get what, would be impossible to run. Arafat failed to make any counterproposal however and thus is blamed for the talks failure. My "unreasonable" comment referred to the right to return.

I agree. Letting either side keep it, in part or in whole, would only create more conflict. Best to make Jerusalem a sovreign political entity.

Indeed. Neither can or will trust the other, nor should, given past events.

Perhaps if they unite in loathing whoever gets it, it would start a healing process....

True.



No, its because they are in a unique situatuion. And almost the entire General assembly passes these motions on up. Thats a lot more than Europe



Thats because they're a pack of bastards. Look up some of the resolutions the US has blocked since 1970 and you'll see why they all mingle well at that level.



Nope, it was a strange patchwork arrangement, which leaving aside the question of who should get what, would be impossible to run. Arafat failed to make any counterproposal however and thus is blamed for the talks failure.
When I said everyone in the UN is out for his own ends I didn't exclude the US.

Those kids were very lucky that fence wasn't guarded by US marines.

You're right there.

Israel exists and will not disappear. That's a fact of life. They're the stronger party, they will get their way. It's just a matter of how many Palestinians will die before they realize this and decide to negotiate for peace.

The Palestine exists and will not disappear. That's a fact of life. They're the bigger party with more international support, they will get their way. It's just a matter of how many Israelis will die before they realize this and decide to negotiate for peace

Nope, it was a strange patchwork arrangement, which leaving aside the question of who should get what, would be impossible to run. Arafat failed to make any counterproposal however and thus is blamed for the talks failure. My "unreasonable" comment referred to the right to return.

The right to return is an unreasonable demand. For the following reasons

1. The Isralie government at the time of the 6 day war did not force the Paliesitains out. They urged them to remain in their homes. They left as refugees because of a war which was started by the other Arab states. They didn't have to leave

2. After the war Israel passed a law saying they could return if they did three things
- Became Isralie citizens, thereby entitled to all the freedoms that allows
- Renounced viloence
- Became peaceful and productive members of society
150,000 Palisitians took up this offer, the remainder did not. That is not the fault of the Isralie government.

3. The suggestion that the descenednts of those who left should also return is nonsense as they did not leave in the first place.

The Palestine exists and will not disappear. That's a fact of life. They're the bigger party with more international support, they will get their way. It's just a matter of how many Israelis will die before they realize this and decide to negotiate for peace

Israel doesnt want Palistine to disapper, that is the big difference. Israel wants the two state solution. The only reason they are continuing the occupation is that if they leave, they create another Israel hating Arab state. What they want is to negotiate a settlement. But every time one is offered it is rejected. Just like the Clinton Barrack proposals, which were more than reasonable to the Palistians

Israel doesnt want Palistine to disapper, that is the big difference. Israel wants the two state solution. The only reason they are continuing the occupation is that if they leave, they create another Israel hating Arab state. What they want is to negotiate a settlement. But every time one is offered it is rejected. Just like the Clinton Barrack proposals, which were more than reasonable to the Palistians
no, what the Israelis wants is to build the ILLEGAL wall to gain more land, set borders unilaterally to gain more land, and build more large ILLEGAL settlements in the West Bank to gain more land. See the pattern? Israel doesnt want peace, they want Arabs to leave so they will have the land to themselves. They could care less about the two state solution.

Ummmmmm sorry here, but do a little research on the Palestinians. Other Arab countries don’t even like them much. I Lebanon the Palestinians live in refuge camps, not by choice, they are not allowed to inter-mix with the Lebanese people, and no Palestinians is allowed to marry a person that is Lebanese. I other Arab nations really cared about the plight of the Palestinians (besides a ammunition against the Israelis) they would do more to help. The Arab nations do not want the Palestinians and really don’t care what happens to them, they just use the poor state of affaires and the continued blood shed to there own ends, as a political tool.
Both sides are equally to blame here; both sides have blood on there hands. There will NEVER be peace in the region as long as both sides are more interested in killing each other then they are in really trying to make peace.
The Israelis build a fence/wall why to keep out terrorist and try to prevent atrocities and the killing of innocent people, the Palestinians use the fence/wall as an excuse to the send mentally disabled, and brain washed people and children to kill themselves and hopefully some Jews. Then the Israelis retaliate and bomb a missile, or bomb making factory, the Palestinians intentionally place this weapons factory in a civilian area in the hops that innocent people will die so they can use it against the Israelis.
Until both sides decide all the death and blood shed is too much and to costly and agree to a truce this will go on forever with no end, again both sides are evil. The way things are going there it is a self perpetuating cycle, bombing by the Palestinians, retaliation by Israelis, bombing in retaliation of the retaliation by the Palestinians and on and on and on with no end in sight.
In my opinion neither side wants peace, and until that changes there will never be peace. Also a self proclaimed terrorist group is elected to power and as the government things can not even begin to get better, because you can not negotiate with terrorist or a group the has the total destruction of Israel as there number one agenda.

deliberate policy of destoying the palestinian economy? and as for the apartheit wall....
Yeah, damn those isralies for destroying the greenhouses. Oh wait....

no, what the Israelis wants is to build the ILLEGAL wall to gain more land, set borders unilaterally to gain more land, and build more large ILLEGAL settlements in the West Bank to gain more land. See the pattern? Israel doesnt want peace, they want Arabs to leave so they will have the land to themselves. They could care less about the two state solution.

Clearly you have no understanding of the situation. The two state solution is exactly what has been aimed for for the last twenty years. The Clinton Barrack proposals gave the Palistianins 95% of what they wanted. They are perfectly willing to compromise with the Palistianins but it does not seem to be working both ways. The Palistianins rejected the proposal and started the second infidata. The Palistiains cant accept to be rewared by violence that they propogate. If they reject a very reasonable offer with violence, it only stands to reason that the next offer they get will not be as reasonable.

Ummmmmm sorry here, but do a little research on the Palestinians. Other Arab countries don’t even like them much. I Lebanon the Palestinians live in refuge camps, not by choice, they are not allowed to inter-mix with the Lebanese people, and no Palestinians is allowed to marry a person that is Lebanese. I other Arab nations really cared about the plight of the Palestinians (besides a ammunition against the Israelis) they would do more to help. The Arab nations do not want the Palestinians and really don’t care what happens to them, they just use the poor state of affaires and the continued blood shed to there own ends, as a political tool.
Both sides are equally to blame here; both sides have blood on there hands. There will NEVER be peace in the region as long as both sides are more interested in killing each other then they are in really trying to make peace.
The Israelis build a fence/wall why to keep out terrorist and try to prevent atrocities and the killing of innocent people, the Palestinians use the fence/wall as an excuse to the send mentally disabled, and brain washed people and children to kill themselves and hopefully some Jews. Then the Israelis retaliate and bomb a missile, or bomb making factory, the Palestinians intentionally place this weapons factory in a civilian area in the hops that innocent people will die so they can use it against the Israelis.
Until both sides decide all the death and blood shed is too much and to costly and agree to a truce this will go on forever with no end, again both sides are evil. The way things are going there it is a self perpetuating cycle, bombing by the Palestinians, retaliation by Israelis, bombing in retaliation of the retaliation by the Palestinians and on and on and on with no end in sight.
In my opinion neither side wants peace, and until that changes there will never be peace. Also a self proclaimed terrorist group is elected to power and as the government things can not even begin to get better, because you can not negotiate with terrorist or a group the has the total destruction of Israel as there number one agenda.



It seems to me that the only thing bad the Israelis have done is retaliate against terrorist attacks. How is that wrong? Is Israel supposed to sit back and relax as its citizens are being slaughtered in the streets?

You pointed out yourself that the Palestinians use human shields by building bomb factories and missile pads in civilian neighborhoods. Seems like that would put all the blood on the militants hands that instigated the fighting to begin with.

Yeah, damn those isralies for destroying the greenhouses. Oh wait....


another great point. the Palestinians showed their self determination amazingly by fighting over the high tech green houses left behind by the recently removed settlers and razing them to the ground.

It seems to me that the only thing bad the Israelis have done is retaliate against terrorist attacks. How is that wrong? Is Israel supposed to sit back and relax as its citizens are being slaughtered in the streets?

You pointed out yourself that the use human shields by building bomb factories and missile pads in civilian neighborhoods. Seems like that would put all the blood on the militants hands that instigated the fighting to begin with.


It goes a little deeper then that, you have to first understand how Israel was formed and who did what, the Jews were not all that “nice” when Israel was formed and one of the very first things they did was to expel and annex the lands of all non-Jewish people in there new lands. The Arab nations did not like the fact that there was a “new” Jewish state close to them so the funded resistance groups, boycotted the new states, and in the end went to war with this new state (and got there butts kicked). The displaced Palestinians had next to no rights and thus the resistance movement was formed, a compromise was made with the Palestinians, thus the Palestinian territories. The Palestinians were able to work in Israel and make a living, but the status quo was not good enough and thus the terror campaign started, and we are where we are.

A bit of history, there has never been a Palestinians state or nation, Palestine was a region, an area of land in the Middle East, Palestinians were a nomadic people. The area was given to the Jews after WWII, this land was administered by the British, and the Allied powers gave the land to the Jews after the war for a home land, this land was barren desert, with little to offer, the people there were nomadic and how very few permeate cities or and a few small villages with the exceptions of Jerusalem. The Jews built the cities that are there now from small villages to the cities they are now. So if you really want to lay blame on someone look to the British, because the whole idea of Israel was there idea.

Weather right or wrong again both sides are guilty of crimes and have blood on there hands. The Israelis have tried, given in many times, and each time peace is close at hand the Palestinians ruin it with a terrorist attack. I for one do not believe the Palestinians want peace, so we have the tit for tat killing game of one up-man ship.

That is absolutely absurd. The Isralies came to the territory of Palestine perfectly legally, and perfectly fairly. They bought land, built communities and did not at all interfeare with the Arabs. For over 40 years they lived in (reletive) peace with their Arab neighboughs and then whenever reasonable offers have been made regarding the two state solution the Palistians have rejected them. They cannot resort to viloence after being offered a peaceful deal and be rewarded with more land, that isnt how the system should work..

The way you smooth over the rough patches and cracks there, I can tell you'd be an excellent plasterer



. Add to the fact that the Clinton Barrack proposals gave the Palistians practically everything they wanted in 2000 and they still rejected it. The Paleistians cannot keep resoriting to vilonce or illegal sanctions and expect to be rewarded with more land.

Ahem, ahem. No they did not offer "practically everything" and "rewarded with more land" makes it appear as if Israel has some right to the West Bank, which it doesnt.

The right to return is an unreasonable demand. For the following reasons

1. The Isralie government at the time of the 6 day war did not force the Paliesitains out. They urged them to remain in their homes. They left as refugees because of a war which was started by the other Arab states. They didn't have to leave

2. After the war Israel passed a law saying they could return if they did three things
- Became Isralie citizens, thereby entitled to all the freedoms that allows
- Renounced viloence
- Became peaceful and productive members of society
150,000 Palisitians took up this offer, the remainder did not. That is not the fault of the Isralie government.

3. The suggestion that the descenednts of those who left should also return is nonsense as they did not leave in the first place.

I know this is hard to get through the vast amount of crap that lurks in your head, but I've said three times (including this one) that the idea of return is unreasonable. You don't seem to acknowledge that.

Then you go through the shit above (1) is not true and ignores 1948 (2) is laughable and (3) misses the obvious.

Is there something that renders it impossible for you to just accept the fact we agree on something?

And didn't the Israelis bulldoze the Palestinian greenhouses during the Rafah/Jenin incursions?

The way you smooth over the rough patches and cracks there, I can tell you'd be an excellent plasterer


Offer an actual argument instead of hollow rhetoric


Ahem, ahem. No they did not offer "practically everything" and "rewarded with more land" makes it appear as if Israel has some right to the West Bank, which it doesnt.

They offered 95% of the West Bank and the entirity of Gaza along with East Jerusleum. Do you have evidence to counter this.

Whether or not Israel or the Palistinians have rights to the land I am speeking of is irellevent to what I said. The fact is that Israel at present control that land and they were prepared to give it to the Palestianins.

I know this is hard to get through the vast amount of crap that lurks in your head, but I've said three times (including this one) that the idea of return is unreasonable. You don't seem to acknowledge that.

My apologies, I thought you were saying that the refusal of the right of return by the Isralies is unreasonable


Then you go through the shit above (1) is not true and ignores 1948 (2) is laughable and (3) misses the obvious.

1) It is true. The Isralie government had no desire to expell the Arab population. They left because they knew that the Arab states were about to attack and did not want to get caught in the cross fire. They felt the Arab states would win, seeing as how could one small Jewish state stand up to six Arab ones. Nethertheless it did

2) Do you have evidence corroberating your denial of this law being passed

3) See above.

It goes a little deeper then that, you have to first understand how Israel was formed and who did what, the Jews were not all that “nice” when Israel was formed and one of the very first things they did was to expel and annex the lands of all non-Jewish people in there new lands.


Depends how you mean by annex. The Jews bought up the land which was predominantly owned by absentee land lords in Syria or Egypt.

Depends how you mean by annex. The Jews bought up the land which was predominantly owned by absentee land lords in Syria or Egypt.

ah yes, those property speculators of irgun and the stern gang. :rolleyes:

what happened at deir yassein then?

ah yes, those property speculators of irgun and the stern gang. :rolleyes:

No. The Jews BOUGHT the land. A minority of Jews did fight, but the majority bought the land by peaceful and legal means.


what happened at deir yassein then?

There was a massacre of Palistianins by the Stern Gang. That was horribly wrong. But contrary to what your argument implies, that was not the method by which the Jews aquired the land they did.

1) It is true. The Isralie government had no desire to expell the Arab population. They left because they knew that the Arab states were about to attack and did not want to get caught in the cross fire. They felt the Arab states would win, seeing as how could one small Jewish state stand up to six Arab ones. Nethertheless it did

Leaving your home because it's about to become a warzone isn't exactly unreasonable, you can't assume because people knew that this was going to happen that they necessarily wanted it to happen. Getting the hell out before it happens was surely the most sensible course of action rather than trying to sit it out.

There was a massacre of Palistianins by the Stern Gang. That was horribly wrong. But contrary to what your argument implies, that was not the method by which the Jews aquired the land they did.

why did the stern gang massacre them? boredom? psycotic tendancies? or to send out a message to palestinians that their village might be next?

its easy to buy land when you ahve chased the owners off the land. absentee landlords my hole

Offer an actual argument instead of hollow rhetoric
.

I have done so on numerous occassions.


They offered 95% of the West Bank and the entirity of Gaza along with East Jerusleum. Do you have evidence to counter this..

Not only unacceptable but more than likely unworkable
http://www.iris.org.il/divided_jerusalem.htm


Whether or not Israel or the Palistinians have rights to the land I am speeking of is irellevent to what I said. The fact is that Israel at present control that land and they were prepared to give it to the Palestianins.

It creates a false impression to express it that way as its not theirs to give.

Its for them to withdraw. Any land retained by them is a concession to Israel, rather than land given to the Palestinians being a concession their way.

) It is true. The Isralie government had no desire to expell the Arab population. They left because they knew that the Arab states were about to attack and did not want to get caught in the cross fire..


Some undoubtedly did. However.....

"We must EXPEL ARABS and take their places .... and, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places-then we have force at our disposal." (Ben Gurion, 1937)

"Zionism is a TRANSFER of the Jews. Regarding the TRANSFER of the [Palestinian] Arabs this is much easier than any other TRANSFER. There are Arab states in the vicinity . . . . and it is clear that if the [Palestinian] Arabs are removed [to these states] this will improve their condition and not the contrary." (Ben Gurion May, 1944 to Histadrut council)

"We have to examine, first, if this transfer is practical, and secondly, if it is necessary. It is impossible to imagine general evacuation without compulsion, and brutal compulsion" (Ben Gurion from Eretz Yisrael)

"In the area allocated to the Jewish State there are not more than 520,000 Jews and about 350,000 non-Jews, mostly Arabs. Together with the Jews of Jerusalem, the total population of the Jewish State at the time of its establishment, will be about one million, including almost 40% non-Jews. such a [population] composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish State. This [demographic] fact must be viewed in all its clarity and acuteness. With such a [population] composition, there cannot even be absolute certainty that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority .... There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%." (to Central commitee Histadrut, Dec 30 1947)

"The war will GIVE us the land. The concept of 'ours' and 'not ours' are ONLY CONCEPTS for peacetime, and during war they lose all their meaning."(Ben Gurion, Feb 7th 1948)

"I do not accept the version [i.e. policy] that [we] should encourage their return. . . I believe we should prevent their return . . . We must settle Jaffa, Jaffa will become a Jewish city. . . . The return of [Palestinian] Arabs to Jaffa [would be] not just foolish." If the [Palestinian] Arabs were allowed to return, to Jaffa and elsewhere, " and the war is renewed, our chances of ending the war as we wish to end it will be reduced. . . . Meanwhile, we must prevent at all costs their return," he said, and, leaving no doubt in the ministers' minds about his views on the ultimate fate of the [Palestinian] refugees, he added: "I will be for them not returning after the war." (Ben Gurion from Benny Morris, p. 141 & 1949, The First Israelis, p. 75)

The numbers that were proposed to return were largely incumbent on coming with Gaza attached, which was rejected.


No. The Jews BOUGHT the land. A minority of Jews did fight, but the majority bought the land by peaceful and legal means...

Ahem.....remember that thread where we worked out (from your figures, which I didnt even question) what percentage they'd bought previous to 1948? I think you're being a bit dishonest here.