NationStates Jolt Archive

Which do you hate more; materialistic, some would say amoral, capitalism, or morally inhibiting fundamentalist Christianity?

The evil corporations.

fundamentalism - at least capitalism creates some worthwhile cargo, even if the distribution is crap

Tough choice. Gonna go with rampant consumerites and materialists for 200, Alex.

;)

That is a tough one. Since the most powerful fundies (Dobson, Warren, Robertson, LaHaye, etc.) are using corporations as tools to spread their fundie madness, I'll go with the corporations. Kill two birds with one stone in a way, or if not kill, at least wing 'em.

The christianity. Corporations don't try to tell me what to do in teh bedroom.

The christianity. Corporations don't try to tell me what to do in teh bedroom.

unless they're trying to sell you something

Why does this have to be a question for the 'far left'?
Does this mean people moderate left, centrist, moderate right and far right are, by implication, ok with amoral capitalism and/or fundamentalist religious zealots?

Aren't both ideologies joined at the hip?

Aren't both ideologies joined at the hip?
I made a thread on the matter. They are most certainly not.

Why does this have to be a question for the 'far left'?
Does this mean people moderate left, centrist, moderate right and far right are, by implication, ok with amoral capitalism and/or fundamentalist religious zealots?
Why, of course it does, because only those people on the loony left would have problems with both of those groups.;)

Why, of course it does, because only those people on the loony left would have problems with both of those groups.;)
Damn straight. :)

Hands down, overboard fundamentalism. Its good to have a belief, but to go crazy with that belief... not a good idea.

Why, of course it does, because only those people on the loony left would have problems with both of those groups.;)
Actually I forgot that this is a thread by an American. 'Far Left' in that country these days seems to be anyone who disagrees with Pat Robertson.

The damned capitalists. How dare they charge me for hugging trees. Yes, I'm looking at you, Europa!

Actually I forgot that this is a thread by an American. 'Far Left' in that country these days seems to be anyone who disagrees with Pat Robertson.
Certainly seems that way.

Which do you hate more; materialistic, some would say amoral, capitalism, or morally inhibiting fundamentalist Christianity?

I dislike both rather intensely, but I'm gonna go with the fundies as my more-hated group. They just piss me off more. Perhaps because... I can handle greed and materialism and accept that as almost a part of human nature, but not Christian fundies. Fuck those guys.

Actually I forgot that this is a thread by an American. 'Far Left' in that country these days seems to be anyone who disagrees with Pat Robertson.
Nah--that's just the left in general. The far left is anyone who disagrees with Bill O'Reilly.:D

unless they're trying to sell you something
Are they trying to sell me sex toys? That could be handy.

The damned capitalists. How dare they charge me for hugging trees. Yes, I'm looking at you, Europa!
I bet it made the trees feel special though. :)

Which do you hate more; materialistic, some would say amoral, capitalism, or morally inhibiting fundamentalist Christianity?
that's difficult to answer because the two aren't mutually exclusive. they are both perpetuated by the other in some ways and have a similar hold on people, i.e. the promise of satisfaction through consumerism ≈ the promise of salvation through faith. but if i only take into account the words used in the question i'll have to say i "hate" christian fundamentalism more because i don't like it's overly inhibiting morallity and i don't think that materialism is the main problem with capitalism.

Damned Christians. Put me into their system...now I fear I shall die in the process of attempting to get out...only another year...must...begin...to...breathe...

The evil corporations.

As in... The Umbrella Corporation? :eek:

Good question.

Morally, the temptation is to go along with hating amoral capitalism more, because at least with religious fundamentalism you tend to get at least a token respect for life and other moral values, but personally, it's the fundamentalists. I have amoral friends, and it doesn't bother me much, but I simply cannot stand religious fundamentalists.

As in... The Umbrella Corporation? :eek:

I spy a play on words...

I bet it made the trees feel special though. :)
You tried to sell me a plastic tree to hug! If real trees hate anything, it's the plastic imitations. :(

As a near lefty, I hate those who think their narrow little definitions should apply to all.

Are they trying to sell me sex toys? That could be handy.

some of them. others might just be selling sex manuals.

I made a thread on the matter. They are most certainly not.

Well, they are, often, but they shouldn't be.

Amoral capitalism is doing its best to kill off religious fundamentalism (one of its benefits), while religious fundamentalism wastes its time ranting about the godless Communist liberals trying to promote the Satanic gay/feminist/etc. agenda. As a godless Communist who hates amoral capitalism, I find the whole thing amusing.

You tried to sell me a plastic tree to hug! If real trees hate anything, it's the plastic imitations. :(
Meh, they should feel flattered. Damn hippy trees. <.<

Good question.

Morally, the temptation is to go along with hating amoral capitalism more, because at least with religious fundamentalism you tend to get at least a token respect for life and other moral values, but personally, it's the fundamentalists. I have amoral friends, and it doesn't bother me much, but I simply cannot stand religious fundamentalists.

yeah, the problem comes in with the crazy bullshit the fundies bring along with the token respect for life and such.

The worst bi-products of our evolutionary history: nationlism, racism, and religion. (IE identity within a group at the cost of all other groups).

As a godless Communist who hates amoral capitalism, I find the whole thing amusing.
It is indeed, considering how the one covertly destroys the other, when they are thought to be complementary.

some of them. others might just be selling sex manuals.

Sex for Dummies

It's real.

Check it out.

:D

Meh, they should feel flattered. Damn hippy trees. <.<
You insult the almighty trees. You make me sad. :(

yeah, the problem comes in with the crazy bullshit the fundies bring along with the token respect for life and such.

Well, there's that. Once, in a long (and utterly futile) argument, one acknowledged to me that he didn't think gays and lesbians had any moral value at all; others just evade the issue with patronizing "hate the sin, not the sinner" nonsense, which is easily seen through.

At least with amoral capitalism there's a higher degree of honesty, and, if you have the money, it's willing to permit you a good deal of freedom.

Furthermore, most advocates of amoral capitalism are a lot smarter and less ignorant than the comparable advocates of religious fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism...

Capitalism at least makes sense.

Fundamentalism is just stupid.

And I hate stupid people above all else.

Which do you hate more; materialistic, some would say amoral, capitalism, or morally inhibiting fundamentalist Christianity?
yes, that one

You insult the almighty trees. You make me sad. :(
Trees make good fire wood.

Which do you hate more; materialistic, some would say amoral, capitalism, or morally inhibiting fundamentalist Christianity?

The churchs can be controled by seperation of church and state, corporations are insipid and omnipresant so I hate the companies more. Thankfully I live in Britian where churchs are in decline, but in my native Zimbabwe and much of Africa, American and Nigerian faith cartels are poping up everywhere.

Probably fundies, because they want to control what everyone does.

Do I hafta hate one more than the other? Can't I despise them equally?

Didn't Engels say that religion was an invention of the bourgeois system, or something of that ilk? I know he said that about the nuclear family.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/ff/Kool-AidMan.jpg

Perhaps because... I can handle greed and materialism and accept that as almost a part of human nature, but not Christian fundies.How interesting, I'm the opposite. I can handle the need to believe that there is something after this meaningless life as being part of human nature more so than I can handle greed and materialism. For these reasons, I'd say I dislike the capitalists more.

Capitalism. Not because it's materialist but because, when it comes down to it, it's pure evil.

Christianity does have some admirable elements. From what I've studied in the bible Jesus condemns all forms of violence, which though non practical I think is incredibly noble.

Capitalism. Not because it's materialist but because, when it comes down to it, it's pure evil.

Christianity does have some admirable elements. From what I've studied in the bible Jesus condemns all forms of violence, which though non practical I think is incredibly noble.Agreed, in theory.

Problem is, Fundamentalism is the philosophy of thought control. Even in the worst corporate hell, people are still free to think.

Fundies, and what they're trying to do to my country.

Morally inhibiting Fundamentalist Christianity, hands down.

Slash-and-burn capitalism is by far the greater evil. Mainly because it is far more pervasive and powerful.

The christianity. Corporations don't try to tell me what to do in teh bedroom.
Yet corporations have much more power than those evil Christians. They try to define your entire life (and succeed more often than religious nuts), they exploit people, destroy the very earth we live on... need I go on? And all you can think about is sexual freedom?

I'd hate the capitalists more. Always capitalising everything. CAPS CAPS CAPS, all day long...it drives me MAD I tell you! At least the fundie Christians can't write.

Are they trying to sell me sex toys? That could be handy.
People are dying daily because of this system and all you can think about is sex?

Problem is, Fundamentalism is the philosophy of thought control. Even in the worst corporate hell, people are still free to think.
No. Corporations just control thought in a more subtle, scientific way.

People are dying daily because of this system and all you can think about is sex?
You say it like it's a bad thing.

Capitalism. Not because it's materialist but because, when it comes down to it, it's pure evil.

When the Christian fundamentalists tell me I'm going to endure eternal agony because I don't believe in and refuse to subordinate myself to their alleged Savior, that comes pretty close to "pure evil" to me.

Actually I forgot that this is a thread by an American. 'Far Left' in that country these days seems to be anyone who disagrees with Pat Robertson.

And guess what. You're an idiot.

You say it like it's a bad thing.
No, nothing wrong with appreciating sex. I just can't see how it is important enough to outweigh the negative effects of global slash-n-burn capitalism.

It also must be considered that evil corporations have much more influence and power than fundamentalist Christian organisations.

No, nothing wrong with appreciating sex. I just can't see how it is important enough to outweigh the negative effects of global slash-n-burn capitalism.

It also must be considered that evil corporations have much more influence and power than fundamentalist Christian organisations.
Well I'm approaching the question as an either or issue. If you had to choose one of these groups to be in power, which would it be...assuming that the other would then recede to lesser importance. In that case? At least the Christians have a concept of 'charity' written into their creed...even if they ignore it...and I could have dirty, nasty sex on the sly. The capitalists would charge me to masturbate.

Hmmm - the capitalism.

The Neocons! You forgot the Neocons!

Of the two given, I'd say the corrupt corporations, because while radical fundamentalist Xianity makes me sick, the corporations are more cunning. Fundies just bitch about homosexual cartoon characters. Lol1

First of all, capitalism isn't amoral, it's immoral. If something is amoral it tends to be something good, like the creation of one's own morals a la Nietzsche and the like. Second, you really can't separate capitalism and Christianity. Both function because of hypocrisy, inequality, and the drive for power and wealth (yes, even Christianity because remember, there's a difference between bogus theology and the dominant institutional practice that skews it). So it's like choosing different facets of the same basic evil, if you want to use such a word to describe it. They go hand in hand. Both have done irrevocable harm to the world.

The evil corporations.
Check that.

Which do you hate more; materialistic, some would say amoral, capitalism, or morally inhibiting fundamentalist Christianity?

Findamentalist Christians who follow some made up myth and try to shove it down other people's throats.

Which do you hate more; materialistic, some would say amoral, capitalism, or morally inhibiting fundamentalist Christianity?

I don't hate either one, but I think both are highly misguided. One is an economic system that fails to appreciate the need for value in life beyond monetary value, while the latter is an attempt to replace that lost value, albeit with a misogynistic, bigoted, and highly misinformed version of a fairly good religion. Insofar as religious fundamentalism in the sense we know it today is merely an outgrowth of the failures of the dominant economic system, I would be willing to say that immoral, not amoral, capitalism is the worse of the two. Were everyone in society treated justly by the economic system, there would be far fewer people who only had fundamentalism to fall back upon.

I'd have to say the Fundamentalists.

Capitalism has done some great things, even though most of them have been done at a high price, in blood, sweat, and tears. It's a step up from mercantilism and feudalism, at least, and probably a neccesary stepping stone to get to... whatever comes next.

Fundamentalists haven't done anything useful or productive, and don't really contribute anything to society. They are ignorant and greedy, and try to spread this ignorance and greed to other people. It's shameful!:mad:

I don't hate either one, but I think both are highly misguided. One is an economic system that fails to appreciate the need for value in life beyond monetary value, while the latter is an attempt to replace that lost value, albeit with a misogynistic, bigoted, and highly misinformed version of a fairly good religion. Insofar as religious fundamentalism in the sense we know it today is merely an outgrowth of the failures of the dominant economic system, I would be willing to say that immoral, not amoral, capitalism is the worse of the two. Were everyone in society treated justly by the economic system, there would be far fewer people who only had fundamentalism to fall back upon.

You sound like you're on the cusp of quoting Marx: "religion is the opium of the people". How on earth is it the place of an economic system to define and promote certain values on those people living within its framework? Stating that there should be a non-commerical side to a monetary system is like claiming that there should be a non-emotion side to a concept like love.

If you compare almost any modern system of capitalism with any other throughout the history of the world you will find that capitalism tends to maximise overall utility and prosperity. It is not flawless, which is why I believe in a limited amount of government intervention to iron out the injustices when and where they occur, but it is the superior system and has promoted growth, technological development, personal economic freedom, consumer goods, general wealth and overall utility on a massive scale.

ZOMG teh Christians!

I don't think I'm far enough left to hate capitalism very much...

I think it'S great that we all have enough money to afford computers and the cost of using the internet so that we ca all go online and bash capitalism. Thank goodness we live in countries where the overall level of wealth and prosperity are conductive to such activities and that we are not held ransom by any government that would retard the levels of growth and economic development by embarking on a process of economic centralisation.

Maybe if I just said something like "socialism is for retards", I'd get a quicker response.

Man, talk about hard questions...

I'm going to have to go with corporations as the one I hate more. Reason being, corporations exploit people deliberately, whereas religions just sort of do it almost without meaning to, I think. Also, like a lot of lefties, while I find the mass of Christians (and religious people in general) annoying and objectionable, I do have kind of a soft spot for Jesus :p .

Maybe if I just said something like "socialism is for retards", I'd get a quicker response.

Maybe we figured it wasn't worth responding to? That's rather rare fofr Nsers though...When's the last time the ever decided not to feed a troll, for example?

Well I'm approaching the question as an either or issue. If you had to choose one of these groups to be in power, which would it be...assuming that the other would then recede to lesser importance. In that case? At least the Christians have a concept of 'charity' written into their creed...even if they ignore it...and I could have dirty, nasty sex on the sly. The capitalists would charge me to masturbate.
I live in a country that was under (what would pass for) fundamentalist Catholic rule for a long time. We got social services, though sub-standard individual freedom. I would rather live under such a government than in say 19th century England as a worker.

Maybe we figured it wasn't worth responding to? That's rather rare fofr Nsers though...When's the last time the ever decided not to feed a troll, for example?

Perhaps, but after about 2 pages of posts reiterating the senitment "capitalizm suckz", I was surpised not to get anything at all when I took a different line.

You sound like you're on the cusp of quoting Marx: "religion is the opium of the people". How on earth is it the place of an economic system to define and promote certain values on those people living within its framework? Stating that there should be a non-commerical side to a monetary system is like claiming that there should be a non-emotion side to a concept like love.

If you compare almost any modern system of capitalism with any other throughout the history of the world you will find that capitalism tends to maximise overall utility and prosperity. It is not flawless, which is why I believe in a limited amount of government intervention to iron out the injustices when and where they occur, but it is the superior system and has promoted growth, technological development, personal economic freedom, consumer goods, general wealth and overall utility on a massive scale.

I didn't say that there should be a "non-commercial side to a monetary system". I said that there are things of value to humans that cannot and should not be stamped with a price tag. Unfortunately, in a thoroughly materialistic society that we live in today, anything that cannot be stamped with a bar code and marketed as a blue-light special gets overlooked and ignored. That's why we live in gated communities where we don't know our neighbors--we don't value friendship and community because you can't sell it. We degrade the concept of truth and honor because being honest and honorable are not qualities you can buy like "well-dressed" and "smart".

Nonetheless, humans need to attach themselves to other humans. We need to believe that there are other people out there who are honest and worthy of respect. That's where we get religious fundamentalism: it offers a poor and misogynistic account of what makes a man honorable and worthy of respect (apparently, it includes a militant bigotry against gays and opposition to abortion), but it offers more than commercialism can and modern liberalism will. It exists and flourishes because if you crave something more fulfilling in your life than throwing money at a problem, it is one of the very few options on the table.

This isn't Marxism; it's simple reflection of the fact that in a barren social landscape, we'll drink the sand for want of water. I too feel that capitalism is good in some sense, although it must always be properly supervised in order to keep it serving the public interest rather than vice versa. Nonetheless, there is something more to human existence than attempting to maximize productive capacity for the shareholder value of another, and in this capitalism provides no alternative. To the extent that our society has become nothing more than an engine of capitalistic production, fundamentalism has flourished because its the only doctrine that recognizes and deals with this void.

*snip*
True. Capitalism is just an economic system, not a culture in and of itself. Fundamentalism, as you said, is the cultural element which complements Capitalism, the latter being the economic element. Any culture can go with Capitalism, though Capitalism on its own (as with any economic system not accompanied by a culture) would lead to nihilism.

fundies

I didn't say that there should be a "non-commercial side to a monetary system". I said that there are things of value to humans that cannot and should not be stamped with a price tag. Unfortunately, in a thoroughly materialistic society that we live in today, anything that cannot be stamped with a bar code and marketed as a blue-light special gets overlooked and ignored. That's why we live in gated communities where we don't know our neighbors--we don't value friendship and community because you can't sell it. We degrade the concept of truth and honor because being honest and honorable are not qualities you can buy like "well-dressed" and "smart".

Nonetheless, humans need to attach themselves to other humans. We need to believe that there are other people out there who are honest and worthy of respect. That's where we get religious fundamentalism: it offers a poor and misogynistic account of what makes a man honorable and worthy of respect (apparently, it includes a militant bigotry against gays and opposition to abortion), but it offers more than commercialism can and modern liberalism will. It exists and flourishes because if you crave something more fulfilling in your life than throwing money at a problem, it is one of the very few options on the table.

This isn't Marxism; it's simple reflection of the fact that in a barren social landscape, we'll drink the sand for want of water. I too feel that capitalism is good in some sense, although it must always be properly supervised in order to keep it serving the public interest rather than vice versa. Nonetheless, there is something more to human existence than attempting to maximize productive capacity for the shareholder value of another, and in this capitalism provides no alternative. To the extent that our society has become nothing more than an engine of capitalistic production, fundamentalism has flourished because its the only doctrine that recognizes and deals with this void.

I admire your values and agree with much you say. However I believe that it is human nature and not the economic system that is the problem. Any effective form of capitalism is by its very nature, highly responsive to demand from below, the trashy materialism you speak of is only promoted by the economic powers that be because it is commercially viable to do so.

In Britain the most popular daily paper is "the Sun". Years ago when I was at school I remember doing a study whereby we went through all of the bestselling daily papers in the UK and worked out (excluding adverts, headlines, pictures, celeb gossip, sport etc) what % of the paper actually constituted written news - the Sun scored 3%. Yet every day approximately 2.5 million people CHOOSE do go out and buy this paper because they think Big Brother is fascinating, because they want to know the name of Branjelina's baby and which club Tara Parker Tomkinson is snorting coke in or what "Jade, 19 from Essex" has to say about the world. Capitalism is a free system that satisfies consumer demand, for me, blaming them would be shooting the messenger.

True. Capitalism is just an economic system, not a culture in and of itself. Fundamentalism, as you said, is the cultural element which complements Capitalism, the latter being the economic element. Any culture can go with Capitalism, though Capitalism on its own (as with any economic system not accompanied by a culture) would lead to nihilism.
What's wrong with nihilism?

*snip*
I agree wholeheartedly.

It's worth remembering that economics is not just about money. It's about the allocation of any resource, be it paint, music, or friendship. Economics does not, in my opinion, undervalue things like friendship. In fact, it puts a very accurate value on friendship and other abstract concepts based on what people are willing to give up to satisfy those demands. The fact of the matter is that people simply don't value friendship and community as much as we'd tell ourselves we do.

A recent study showed that roughly 80% of Americans say obesity is a problem while only 20% consider themselves overweight. In reality, the chunk of overweight people is much larger than that, though I don't remember the statistics. Capitalism cuts through the distorting effect of what people claim they believe by actually forcing them to decide which resources they value more. Sure you, say you value your sense of community, but the fact that you have a large fence all the way around your house indicates otherwise. Capitalism measures what you do, not what you say, which is why I believe capitalism is a superior measurement of value. Let's face it, people can be hypocritical. They can claim they support human rights and then go out and buy from Walmart, where they employ Chinese slave labour. They can say they believe in environmental causes while doing absolutely nothing to reduce the amount they drive or take public transport more often.

In conclusion, if people really cared about these social issues as much as they claim to, capitalism would accomplish all these things we say we want. It's when we're dishonest with ourselves and other people that capitalism appears to fail.

No. Corporations just control thought in a more subtle, scientific way.Or try to, anyway. I think you missed the point though.

Imagine if religious fundamentalism was as widespread as corporate capitalism. In such a scenario, I would've likely been burned at the stake several years ago, whereas under corporate capitalism, I'm free to oppose it to the very best of my ability - because there's no reason to get rid of me.

Besides, just like corporate hell is indirectly responsible for millions of deaths every year, fundamentalism would do the same. Exploiting to death all who don't share in the delusion. It's not like we haven't seen what large-scale fundamentalism does.

By the way, seeing as I have no problem with corporations in theory (specific ones are another issue) but I do have a problem with the theory behind fundamentalism, I'll go with that. Then again, I'm a centrist.