NationStates Jolt Archive

Why are people obsessed with this? It does not exist.

There is only one race that is the Human race aka Homo sapiens; a example of another race would be the neatherthals which died out long time ago.

Only different between me and the other person who is classed, as a "different race" is the "melanin" levels in the skin, this changes often, how do you get a suntan? Your melanin level increases so does that make you a different race?

The whole thing doesn't exist; they are man made social constructs to separate us where we do not need to be separated.

I'm not sure, but I think some biologists still view races as legitimate classifications.

You damn hippie.:D

I'm not sure, but I think some biologists still view races as legitimate classifications.
Yes, biologists use race as a classification. They usually use subspecies, though. No biologist recognizes multiple races in humanity to my knowledge.

Aye, I think you'd mean Homo sapiens sapiens is the only race...

P.S. Subraces, on the other hand...:p

Last I heard, Biologists don't classify races and science has proven many times there are basically no differences that actually constitute as different races.

As we say, it is the "human race", calling people otherwise is saying they are indeed not human which they are.

Think about it, what are the differences? Where you draw the line at different races? People with different genes? so a blue eyed blonde is a different race to a green eyed blonde etc etc

Melanin levels? There are drugs that make you have high concentrations and the opposite. Plus getting a suntan changes the levels in your skin.

There is not factual basis for it.

Aye, I think you'd mean Homo sapiens sapiens is the only race...
Except there is no Homo sapiens sapiens. Subspecies are only used if there would be more than one of them, and Neandertals are in their own species once and for all, thanks to molecular studies.

http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/images/bigtree2.GIF

Except there is no Homo sapiens sapiens. Subspecies are only used if there would be more than one of them, and Neandertals are in their own species once and for all, thanks to molecular studies.

Ah, they got that decided and no one told me? Feh, very well then. No races.

Surprised there hasn't been more posts.

When this usually comes up in other topics, people have a political field day.

The whole thing doesn't exist; they are man made social constructs to separate us where we do not need to be separated.

Are you Vladimir Lenin's relative or something?

Differences do exist between people who have a different color of skin, and it isnt just skin they have different facial features,different smells,different average IQs, etc.

Are you Vladimir Lenin's relative or something?

Differences do exist between people who have a different color of skin, and it isnt just skin they have different facial features,different smells,different average IQs, etc.
You damn fascist!:D

Are you Vladimir Lenin's relative or something?

Differences do exist between people who have a different color of skin, and it isnt just skin they have different facial features,different smells,different average IQs, etc.

Differences also exist between people with the same color of skin. In fact, for variations in the human genome, people are about as different from one another within their 'races' as they are between them. Thus, you are likely to find as much genetic variation in two white people as you are between a white person and a black person. This is one of the ways we know today that 'race' is a myth.

Are you Vladimir Lenin's relative or something?

Differences do exist between people who have a different color of skin, and it isnt just skin they have different facial features,different smells,different average IQs, etc.

Ok ok let me get this right...

I go out to get a suntan, I have cosmetic surgery on my face, I put on a different aftershave and I sit infront of a tv for 5 years to destory my high iq.

Does that make me a different "race"?

Two people, the jock and the nerd, both "white".

The jock has wide jawbone, larger nose, he smells different because he runs a lot and works out. Since he likes his sports, he does less work on studies therefore having a lower IQ.

The nerd has thin narrow cheeks, small nose, he sweats in the computer lab due to not enough cooling, he doesn't work out so sweats different as he is a different build, as he does lots of intellectual activities, he has a lot higher IQ then the jock.

Are these two people different species? let's say the jock is darker because he is in the sun more. He fits your version of a different race, but he is not? both have different genes as well...

See, use my example, there is no should things as different "race" 's those who disagree are "racist" as they believe in the concept of different "race" 's

Differences also exist between people with the same color of skin. In fact, for variations in the human genome, people are about as different from one another within their 'races' as they are between them. Thus, you are likely to find as much genetic variation in two white people as you are between a white person and a black person. This is one of the ways we know today that 'race' is a myth.

Yes, "race" is a myth. :p

Also look at the enviromental sides of things.

Get a pair of identical twins

Stick one in a cold place like Sweden, giving him best education, good food, etc etc

Stick the other one in a mud hut in the middle of the sahara desert just making sure he has enough to live.

Use the comparison before.

Are they different races? Even though they are genetically the same?

Ah, they got that decided and no one told me? Feh, very well then. No races.
Actually we are Homo sapiens sapiens. The species Homo sapiens was the one that came before us. It was the early Homo sapiens that originally spread form Africa. They left in multiple waves, which evolved into different forms, not different enough to be their own species, but enough to be classified as different sub-species.

Todays humans aren't different enough to be classified as different sub-species, but people around the world have different characteristics - Africans tend to be taller and leaner, whereas those from northern Europe are shorter and fatter. Oriental people tend to have black hair and elongated eye slits.

The differences are because of the conditions the people lived in. Africans are tall and skinny with dark skin because the larger surface area of their bodies allows them to expell excess heat from their bodies more quickly. Europeans likewise are shorter and more 'plump' because they needed to conserve body heat in the northern climates. They also lost they're skin color because the lack of UV radiation made it obsolete and even harmful to them because they couldn't produce as much Vitamin D as their bodies needed.
(I have no idea what conditions caused the oriental population to gain their characteristics, but I'm sure someone has an idea)

In the end if the various populations had remained separate for a longer period of time (At least 10 thousand years) we may have evolved into distinct groups with the phyisical impossibility of successfully breeding amoungst each other (successful being defined as: leading to viable offspring capable of reproducing). But then again this may not have happened since some have found what appears to be DNA from the neanderthals incorporated into some present day humans.

Why are people obsessed with this? It does not exist.

*snip*

The whole thing doesn't exist; they are man made social constructs to separate us where we do not need to be separated.


I'm inclinded to agree with you, in principle. However, in the U.S. at least, race is also a legal construct. There are many laws with real criminal and civil penalties based on this construct, therefore it cannot be ignored. Even though many of these laws were created with the intentions of battling the negative ends of race as a social construct, their existance ensures that the construct will never go away.

Interesting and sad paradox, isn't it? Hate the construct and its social effects, so you create laws to combat them, ensuring that the construct will not go away. :headbang:

But then again this may not have happened since some have found what appears to be DNA from the neanderthals incorporated into some present day humans.
No, we didn't.

Also, you seem to be confused about the definition of subspecies. Look it up.

I'm inclinded to agree with you, in principle. However, in the U.S. at least, race is also a legal construct. There are many laws with real criminal and civil penalties based on this construct, therefore it cannot be ignored. Even though many of these laws were created with the intentions of battling the negative ends of race as a social construct, their existance ensures that the construct will never go away.

Interesting and sad paradox, isn't it? Hate the construct and its social effects, so you create laws to combat them, ensuring that the construct will not go away. :headbang:

Most of them are biased and stupid.

Best way is flat broad equal rights for all, getting a job/promotion should be soley based on ability and how they can handle the job. There shouldn't need to be "quotas" to be met, it should be equal opportunity for all. "quotas" destroy that very principle.

I am not saying that discrimate against other people but for the opposite, wouldn't you want to get that job because you was the best man for it? not because a government quota said so?

Yes, they try to bring more equality to the work place, that in principle is good, but it discriminates against others in other words doing what it is meant to be stopping.

No, we didn't.

Also, you seem to be confused about the definition of subspecies. Look it up.
Perhaps I was mistaken regarding the Neanderthal DNA. I apologize.

I am quite familiar with the term subspecies. It refers to different 'breeds' based on a geograpical location or pocket of individuals with genetically distinguishable characteristics.

I am quite familiar with the term subspecies. It refers to different 'breeds' based on a geograpical location or pocket of individuals with genetically distinguishable characteristics.
Unfortunately, you can't seem to grasp that Homo sapiens and Homo sapiens sapiens are the same thing.

Todays humans aren't different enough to be classified as different sub-species, but people around the world have different characteristics - Africans tend to be taller and leaner, whereas those from northern Europe are shorter and fatter. Oriental people tend to have black hair and elongated eye slits.


Are you calling me FAT????

You bitch...:mad:






:D
Sorry, but "race" has become the new "gay". Maybe May was gay-discussing month and June is race-discussing month and I didnt get the memo...

Unfortunately, you can't seem to grasp that Homo sapiens and Homo sapiens sapiens are the same thing.
*sighs*
Okay, Homo sapiens were the initial ones to leave Africa (ignoring Neanderthals for the moment). Those early Homo sapiens were not yet fully what we consider today to be modern humans. They changed as they spread into today's version. Scientists then needed a new classification. Since they had been calling modern humans Homo sapiens for so long it didn't seem right to change it drastically, nor were the differences major enough to merit a new name for those who had left Africa. So modern humans were classified as Homo sapiens sapiens.

In the scientific world Homo sapiens and Homo sapiens sapiens are two different things, but as often the case in this world, the scientific community does not reflect the terms used in conventional society. Thus if you use the term Homo sapiens in public people will know you are refering to modern humans, but if you're talking to an Archaeologist you may need to clarify.

Most of them are biased and stupid.

Best way is flat broad equal rights for all, getting a job/promotion should be soley based on ability and how they can handle the job. There shouldn't need to be "quotas" to be met, it should be equal opportunity for all. "quotas" destroy that very principle.

*snip*




You have no argument from me there! Sadly, this is easier said than done.

Are you calling me FAT????

You bitch...:mad:






:D
Sorry, but "race" has become the new "gay". Maybe May was gay-discussing month and June is race-discussing month and I didnt get the memo...
Generalizations, they are a hated thing here but this is not against anyone in particular. And you do have to admit that the average person from Northern Europe tend to be shorter and a bit more husky than the average African.

You have no argument from me there! Sadly, this is easier said than done.

Yes true. :(

Yes, "race" is a myth. :p

Also look at the enviromental sides of things.

Get a pair of identical twins

Stick one in a cold place like Sweden, giving him best education, good food, etc etc

Stick the other one in a mud hut in the middle of the sahara desert just making sure he has enough to live.

Use the comparison before.

Are they different races? Even though they are genetically the same?

Actually, Swedes are a different race. They eat pancakes and pizza with knife and fork! KNIFE and FORK! What gives!?

Actually, Swedes are a different race. They eat pancakes and pizza with knife and fork! KNIFE and FORK! What gives!?

I eat pizza with a knife and a fork too! Oh noes, I'm a Swede!

I eat pizza with a knife and a fork too! Oh noes, I'm a Swede!

You DISGUST me! God gave you hands so you could eat PIZZA with them! Not so you could stab pizza with a FORK!

You're a Swede by ASSOCIATION!

Well, at least the argument of no races seem to be won in this topic.

Hopefully all the other topics with this in can be answered with this one for everyone to be enlightened.

Why are people obsessed with this? It does not exist.

There is only one race that is the Human race aka Homo sapiens; a example of another race would be the neatherthals which died out long time ago.

Only different between me and the other person who is classed, as a "different race" is the "melanin" levels in the skin, this changes often, how do you get a suntan? Your melanin level increases so does that make you a different race?

The whole thing doesn't exist; they are man made social constructs to separate us where we do not need to be separated.

Try a dictionar definition. There is more than the "human race."

race1 Audio pronunciation of "race" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rs)
n.

1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
3. A genealogical line; a lineage.
4. Humans considered as a group.
5. Biology.
1. An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.
2. A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.
6. A distinguishing or characteristic quality, such as the flavor of a wine.

Try a dictionar definition. There is more than the "human race."

race1 Audio pronunciation of "race" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rs)
n.

1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
3. A genealogical line; a lineage.
4. Humans considered as a group.
5. Biology.
1. An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.
2. A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.
6. A distinguishing or characteristic quality, such as the flavor of a wine.

Just to clarify, the dictionary defines words as they are used in our language, new words for the first time, etc. The dictionary having a definition for how we use the term "race", as #5, does not mean that race is a valid biological or anthropological criteria.

Interestingly enough, it does state that ones giveen formal taxonomic recognition are called subspecies. Note that we, as people, have no recognized subspecies. Thus, by this definition, it would seem that the idea of 'race' among human beings is indeed a myth.

What is the obsession with these type of threads?

Agreed. We're all one race, the human race, with differences and similarities alike.

Why are people obsessed with this? It does not exist.

There is only one race that is the Human race aka Homo sapiens; a example of another race would be the neatherthals which died out long time ago.

Only different between me and the other person who is classed, as a "different race" is the "melanin" levels in the skin, this changes often, how do you get a suntan? Your melanin level increases so does that make you a different race?

The whole thing doesn't exist; they are man made social constructs to separate us where we do not need to be separated.
Thank you brother! Now, those Stormfront people are going to come and flame you.

Sorry, but "race" has become the new "gay". Maybe May was gay-discussing month and June is race-discussing month and I didnt get the memo...

WTF? It's June already?

As for the topic of "race", I don't believe in social boundaries between sapient species. In other words, I'd so do an alien or a mutant.

Also, is it just me or is ethnic background more important in Europe than in North America (because European nations have dominant cultural groups or just the history of the area maybe?). What is it with all these people going on about "race" and etc. and the like? And then they add religion into the mix making it into some extremist racist AND fundamentalist fest. Sorry, but I like to complain alot, don't take my comments TOO seriously.

Stormfront...

They can go back to whatever hole in the ground they come from and take the BNP/Combat18/National Front with them.

Have no time for the ignorant ones of society.

There is only one Race, and he is awesome.
http://www.lasvegasmercury.com/2005/MERC-Feb-10-Thu-2005/photos/guest.jpg

there is race gene, at least thats what I have heard. Thats why we look different.

there is race gene, at least thats what I have heard. Thats why we look different.
Either you misheard or were listening to lies or ignorance.

There is no known gene by virtue of which everyone can be classified as definately belonging or definately not belonging to any of the categories that people refer to by use of the word 'race'. Not only is no such gene known, but what currently is known indicates that it isnt possible that such a gene does exist.

(I read the first page of responses)

Our concept of race may not be very accurate and is certainly destructive, but you're just silly if you think it has no biological origin. Heck, you even mention skin color (and other "colors" like hair, eyes etc.) - there's 0.05% of our DNA right there! But to use an example, if you ask for a dog (canis familiaris), I can give you a poodle, a great dane, a husky, or a pug, because they are all the same species and you named the species (dog). If you ask for a bloodhound, though, I'm not going to tell you that bloodhounds don't really exist because they are all the same species anyways.

It's obvious that there is biological underpinnings and useful conventions of the concept of race.

The question you should be asking is what is the MOST useful concept of race? Does social upbringing enter into the picture at all? Is it all genes? Are the different breeds of dogs different races? Why on earth don't we categorize fruitflies into races, when the difference between the average two flies is greater than the difference between a human and a chimpanzee? Everything in nature works on a sliding scale, a continuum. The process that gave homo sapiens races was the same process that caused speciation (sexual isolation) - it should really cause us to re-evaluate our relationship with the rest of the animal world.

The dog argument was stupid, we are not even different species we are the same.

It is the difference between a bloodhound with a white tail, and one with black.

As I said before, "Race" doesn't exist for us as there is one, human race. There might be different species of humans like homo sapiens and neanderthals (the poodle and bloodhound as you called it), but not the so called ones we have today.

Except there is no Homo sapiens sapiens. Subspecies are only used if there would be more than one of them, and Neandertals are in their own species once and for all, thanks to molecular studies.

Yo're forgeting Homo sapiens idaltu...

The dog argument was stupid, we are not even different species we are the same.

It is the difference between a bloodhound with a white tail, and one with black.

As I said before, "Race" doesn't exist for us as there is one, human race. There might be different species of humans like homo sapiens and neanderthals (the poodle and bloodhound as you called it), but not the so called ones we have today.
The dog example isn't as bad as you may think. The different breeds of dog aren't different species. This can be proven by every mutt you see. Since they can interbreed, they are subspecies.

The neanderthals were not humans. The term human is used to describe only those of the Homo sapiens species and the subspecies therein. Neanderthals were Homo neanderthalensis, and although both our species diverged from Homo heidelbergensis some 250 thousand years ago they don't get the human name. Instead they are hominids.

Yo're forgeting Homo sapiens idaltu...
Thank you. I was having this discussion before with someone else. He didn't believe me that there were other subspecies of humans (Although not currently around). Unfortunately I couldn't remember the name so I couldn't give another example of the subspecies.

Once again Homo sapiens is the species that originally left Africa. That species changed and became divergent, not enough to be different species but different enough to have different classifications.

So Homo sapiens idaltu is one of those variations that didn't survive, currently (at least to my knowledge) Homo sapiens sapiens is the only subspecies that is currently alive today. When you say Homo sapiens to a normal person they think "human", but when you say it to a scientist they think "be more specific"

Last I heard, Biologists don't classify races and science has proven many times there are basically no differences that actually constitute as different races.

As we say, it is the "human race", calling people otherwise is saying they are indeed not human which they are.

Think about it, what are the differences? Where you draw the line at different races? People with different genes? so a blue eyed blonde is a different race to a green eyed blonde etc etc

Melanin levels? There are drugs that make you have high concentrations and the opposite. Plus getting a suntan changes the levels in your skin.

There is not factual basis for it.

Races are generally divided based on their inability to have an offspring capable of reproducing. A mule cannot reproduce, hence donkeys and horses are different races.

Races are generally divided based on their inability to have an offspring capable of reproducing. A mule cannot reproduce, hence donkeys and horses are different races.
That's actually species. A donkey and a horse cannot produce offspring capable of reproducing (apart form the rare anomoly) therefore they are different species. A race is more closely related to subspecies. As such the dog breeds example was more appropriate. There is the Collie race and the German Shepard race and the Husky race, etc. etc. etc.

That's actually species. A donkey and a horse cannot produce offspring capable of reproducing (apart form the rare anomoly) therefore they are different species. A race is more closely related to subspecies. As such the dog breeds example was more appropriate. There is the Collie race and the German Shepard race and the Husky race, etc. etc. etc.

Race is synonomous with subspecies, and thus dog is a race unto itself - Canis lupus familiaris . Breeds of Canis lupus familiaris would be examples of infrasubspecies, due to the significant amount of genetic differences between breeds. The taxon is not used for Homo sapiens sapiens because there is not enough genetic difference.

Race is synonomous with subspecies, and thus dog is a race unto itself - Canis lupus familiaris . Breeds of Canis lupus familiaris would be examples of infrasubspecies, due to the significant amount of genetic differences between breeds. The taxon is not used for Homo sapiens sapiens because there is not enough genetic difference.
Very well. Taxonomic classifications aside, the point is that we all seem to agree on though is that there is not enough genetic differences among the human population to classify the as different races.

Now I guess we need to discuss whether there is even enough difference to justify saying that there are different 'breeds' of humans. Still the same species, but with some differences in appearance that are common to a certain population.