NationStates Jolt Archive

http://education.guardian.co.uk/specialreports/lecturerspay/story/0,,1785357,00.html

Basically, students intend to take universities to court because they may be "awarded a lower class of degree because of this boycott".

Well, yes, it's possible...unless these students have managed to maintain consistent marks throughout their course - in which case they'll get the degree that they deserve.

They only have a case if their graduation is delayed, which seems rather unlikely. If they do get a lower degree than they expected, it could be because their work isn't as good as they thought it was.

I'm a final-year student myself, so I'm potentially affected by the boycott just as much as the students in the article. But I know that whatever degree I get is the degree I deserve, whether or not it's what I want, and however it's worked out. Seeing as it's in the universities interest to award more higher degrees, I imagine that if the exams and coursework aren't marked they'll just take previous marks for each student, and, if it gives them a higher degree, bump them up a little.

As an aside, I have every sympathy with the lecturers - they were promised a pay rise (supposedly of 23% over 3 years) out of the extra income universities would receive from increased tuition fees, but have now been offered a pay rise of about half that.

First, twenty-three percent is a whale of a lot of money.

Second, professionals shouldn't depend on union representation.

Fire the bums and replace them with military air traffic controllers. Well, it did work then. Fire the bums and replace them with military lecturers. There, that sounds better.

There was something similar like that here in Ontario, the community colleges went on strike due to pay issues as well.

I'm on the side of the instructors/lecturers for their cause, but I think the timing is bad. So close to the end of the school year and putting students futures in jeopardy.

Interesting. Plenty of whinges about marks degrees and money yet not a single complaint about not getting the actual education. Sad really.

Interesting. Plenty of whinges about marks degrees and money yet not a single complaint about not getting the actual education. Sad really.
Post secondary education is basically a 'do it yourself' prospect anyhow.

There was something similar like that here in Ontario, the community colleges went on strike due to pay issues as well.

I'm on the side of the instructors/lecturers for their cause, but I think the timing is bad. So close to the end of the school year and putting students futures in jeopardy.
I was on the side of the students, being a student myself.

I think that because it's a service with a contract the strikers should be liable for any form of damages caused, as well as the administrators who conduct the lockout in conjuction with the strike et cetera.

Im supposed to get my results in 2 weeks, but some work is still not being marked, and what has been marked still needs to be moderated. While a delay shouldnt affect my grade, a lot of jobs require a 2:1, and I need to know what grade im going to get.

I am on the lecturers side, however. A 23% increase may seem excessive, but if thats what they were promised they shouldnt back down.

Interesting. Plenty of whinges about marks degrees and money yet not a single complaint about not getting the actual education. Sad really.
The education isn't really such an issue - there have been two days of strikes by the AUT and Natfhe in the last three years, so it's not as if students are suffering all that much. Most work by final year students is being marked, so again that's not so much the issue, it's just the possible delaying of graduation.

I am a first year and how this affects my grades is ambiguous, to say the least...

Personally, I think this is a wise move by the students as it proves advantageous to the lecturers as well.

The students have a right to sue the university for breach of contract (they are not delivering the service that students are paying for) and thus this action, should it be successful would set a dangerous precedent that University management would want to avoid. Therefore it will force them to the bargaining table with the AUT sooner rather than later....

First, twenty-three percent is a whale of a lot of money.

23% over 3 years. Thats between 7 and 8% a year. Not too bad, bot not what it sounded like you thought. The current offer is about 12% over 3 years, which ends up about 4% a year, not that much above the rate of inflation.


Second, professionals shouldn't depend on union representation.

Why not? Should they rely on cheese representation instead? Or crackers? Party? Chickens? Liver sausage?


Fire the bums and replace them with military air traffic controllers. Well, it did work then. Fire the bums and replace them with military lecturers. There, that sounds better.

Nah, actually get into deals with the people rather than offering them the same deal to the one they are striking over and claim it is a new offer.

Why not? Should they rely on cheese representation instead? Or crackers? Party? Chickens? Liver sausage?

Anyone who insists on union representation is doing it because they are afraid to be judged on their own merits. I don't understand the herd-like attitude of this group, anymore than I understand why pilots or engineers should want to be represented.

And 8% per year is a whale of a lot of money. What have they done to merit that sort of a raise. Why do they deserve more than just inflation increases? Have their lecturing abilities improved? Do they graduate more students? Those are questions that the flock doesn't want to have to answer. They would rather just strike until they get what they want.

As Hillary Clinton once said, "Fire their asses!"

I fully support the majority of the strike action. What I didn't support was when the AUT exec proposed to not set exams as well as not marking them, which completely unfair on foriegn students in their final year, as their visa will be running out soon and so wouldn't be able to take the exam in the summer period.

My university, Birmingham, seems to have the situation well under control. They've managed to find some qualifed staff to mark exam papers, and so the fairness of the exam isn't really a major problem, just the amount of time it will take to mark.

They've also decided to award provisional degrees if the dispute isn't resolved by the time of the graduation ceremonies. Once the exams have been marked and invigilated the degree will be reassesed with there only being the possibility of a higher mark being awared. Sounds fine to me.

I saw someone complain about the timing of the stike, but to be fair this is the best time for the stike. It puts universities under pressure to meet the their contractual obligations, without threatening the quality of the education that students are recieveing. I'm not sure I could support a 1st/2nd term strike for that reason, unless it was an unresolved strike from the exam period.

Anyone who insists on union representation is doing it because they are afraid to be judged on their own merits. I don't understand the herd-like attitude of this group, anymore than I understand why pilots or engineers should want to be represented.

And 8% per year is a whale of a lot of money. What have they done to merit that sort of a raise. Why do they deserve more than just inflation increases? Have their lecturing abilities improved? Do they graduate more students? Those are questions that the flock doesn't want to have to answer. They would rather just strike until they get what they want.

As Hillary Clinton once said, "Fire their asses!"The AUT claims productivty is up 150% and pay down by 40%.

Indeed, if you compare lecturers pay to other professions you'll find it is substantially less, and that in real terms lectures pay has decreased by more than 23% since before the Thatcher era. Do they graduate more students? *ahem, that's sounds so corrupt* But they do indeed. In 1987 17% of the population went to university, in 1995 it was up to 32%, with the New Labour Government aiming to raise that to 50%.

In the late 90s and early 00s, lecture sizes increased dramatically
I work at one of the top 20 UK universities, with a reputation for good teaching. Yet in eight years my final-year class size has quadrupled from 16 to sixty-something. Is this typical? Anecdotally, yes. In the past, introductory lectures were big, but as students progressed groups became smaller. Now I hear that students at good universities may spend all three years in classes of more than 100.http://www.hedweb.com/bgcharlton/journalism/lecturesizes.html

More students, less pay. And people wonder why they're striking. To add insult to injury, a condition in allowing top up fees was that a considerably chunk would go into lecturer wage increases. AND the universities have had teh audacity to claim that they have no money just as they are about to take the first intake of top-up-fees students. WHILST, the the national average of vice chancellors' pay is in excess of £150k, and they have been awarded pay increases of 25% in the last 3 years.

Are these good enough reasons for you?

These things aren't just in universitys. My high school right now is going through a similar thing. Our teachers were promised a raise of 5 % per year. A couple of years back our district was in debt, and asked the teachers politely if they wouldn't recieve they pay increases that year. The teachers agreed and now three years later our district is fine again, and refusing to increase the teachers pay by 7%. Now the teachers are refusing to work after school, before school, and between classes. This does nothing but hurt the students. The teachers are refusing to allow clubs to be held in their classrooms, and after school. The students are getting upset.

I can understand that would be upsetting. However, withdrawing their labour is one of the few tools that the staff have. At least they're trying to be honourable and not let damge the student's education. It seems like they're just refusing to do things that help the council meet its targets and thus damage its income. I think schools/councils get extra cash if they can show that their providing so many extra curicular activities and that all classes are 'SMART', and so forth.

Public sector workers can be so naive sometimes. They're the type of person who'd pay a builder upfront.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H1A4WCGfks

News report on a protest my uni just ran on it

one of my flatmates has just finished her final year of a four year degree. because of the strike her dissertation, final year essays and final exams are not getting marked. she's being awarded an ordinary degree like someone who didn't finish their honours programme until the strike ends and her lecturers decide to mark her papers. this is giving her serious problems finding post-graduate employment. imagine spending 6 months researching and writing a 12,000 word dissertation only to be told at the end of the year that it is not going to be marked and your degree is therefore worth shit. now, she and i both would be completely behind the lecturers on this issue if they'd consulted the NUS or similar student body before initiating their industrial action so that the strike could have affected the universities with minimal effects to the students who are paying to be educated there. as it is the strike has only affected the students, and the uni administrators are only inconvenienced. this, frankly, is not on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H1A4WCGfks

News report on a protest my uni just ran on itWho uploaded that video? The video and audio are over a second out of sync.

I have friends that have been massively screwed over by this "action", it's a fucking disgrace, as is my student body's support for them. They could easily have timed this so it did not clash with exams or graduation but they willfully chose not to. When people act with such ignorance, selfishness and disregard for responsibility I couldn't care less about the merits of their argument.

First, twenty-three percent is a whale of a lot of money.

Second, professionals shouldn't depend on union representation.

Fire the bums and replace them with military air traffic controllers. Well, it did work then. Fire the bums and replace them with military lecturers. There, that sounds better.

1. I believe it is over several years.

2. If that were the case we would be given dried rice for wages.

3. Quality.

Who uploaded that video? The video and audio are over a second out of sync.
Given the quality of their television reports, it was probably ITV themselves. :p

I have friends that have been massively screwed over by this "action", it's a fucking disgrace, as is my student body's support for them. They could easily have timed this so it did not clash with exams or graduation but they willfully chose not to. When people act with such ignorance, selfishness and disregard for responsibility I couldn't care less about the merits of their argument.Your contract is between you and the university, not you and the lecturer. Ergo any problems that are not resolved are the fault of the university. What steps have your university taken to negate the actions of the strike. If none, then you should be bitterly complaining to them. If you've read my previous post you'll know that my university has taken many steps to ensure that students will not be adversely affected by this strike. Non-final year students will be allowed to continue into the next year if the exams are still unmarked at the beginning of september, and final year students will be awarded a degree based on their previous work, with the possibility to have the degree upgraded once the exams have been marked. Students at Birmingham Uni will barely feel the effects of this strike.

Given the quality of their television reports, it was probably ITV themselves. :p:D Poor ITV and their suckage.

Don't know how it is effecting my uni (Bradford) that much, but personally, my department isn't being effected as my lecturers are either retiring, moving on to other employment or being blackmailed by me (I have some favours I can call in, all above board mind, but favours never the less) :D

Your contract is between you and the university, not you and the lecturer. Ergo any problems that are not resolved are the fault of the university. What steps have your university taken to negate the actions of the strike. If none, then you should be bitterly complaining to them. If you've read my previous post you'll know that my university has taken many steps to ensure that students will not be adversely affected by this strike. Non-final year students will be allowed to continue into the next year if the exams are still unmarked at the beginning of september, and final year students will be awarded a degree based on their previous work, with the possibility to have the degree upgraded once the exams have been marked. Students at Birmingham Uni will barely feel the effects of this strike.

No, I don't accept that argument, my "contract" may be with the university but I would hope that the lecturers would have some feelings of obligation toward the students or at the very least they would make the choice to postpone this action until after the current crop of finalists have graduated.

Likewise my university has gone to some length to ensure that students will not be adversely affected but, with many tutors refusing to mark all assessed and non-assessed work and refusing to cover for colleagues it is only inevitable that they will be. I've been quite lucky and the affects of this have largely passed me by, but then I have some friends, particularly one in the English department, that have not been so fortunate.

The AUT claims productivty is up 150% and pay down by 40%.

Indeed, if you compare lecturers pay to other professions you'll find it is substantially less, and that in real terms lectures pay has decreased by more than 23% since before the Thatcher era. Do they graduate more students? *ahem, that's sounds so corrupt* But they do indeed. In 1987 17% of the population went to university, in 1995 it was up to 32%, with the New Labour Government aiming to raise that to 50%.

In the late 90s and early 00s, lecture sizes increased dramatically
http://www.hedweb.com/bgcharlton/journalism/lecturesizes.html

More students, less pay. And people wonder why they're striking. To add insult to injury, a condition in allowing top up fees was that a considerably chunk would go into lecturer wage increases. AND the universities have had teh audacity to claim that they have no money just as they are about to take the first intake of top-up-fees students. WHILST, the the national average of vice chancellors' pay is in excess of £150k, and they have been awarded pay increases of 25% in the last 3 years.

Are these good enough reasons for you?
These are good reasons for a pay raise, but not for union representation, nor for a strike. If the lecturers don't like their current conditions, then they are free to seek employment elsewhere, aren't they? That's what I do when I think I'm worth more than my salary.

No, I don't accept that argument, my "contract" may be with the university but I would hope that the lecturers would have some feelings of obligation toward the students or at the very least they would make the choice to postpone this action until after the current crop of finalists have graduated.

Likewise my university has gone to some length to ensure that students will not be adversely affected but, with many tutors refusing to mark all assessed and non-assessed work and refusing to cover for colleagues it is only inevitable that they will be. I've been quite lucky and the affects of this have largely passed me by, but then I have some friends, particularly one in the English department, that have not been so fortunate.How about your feelings of obligation towards the lecturer? The whole of the teaching profession is shockingly undervalued. I hear people frequently complaints about the quality of education as whole. Perhaps if we treated the teaching profession with a tad more respect (one way would be making their pay levels approximate to what they could recieve in the private sector). Lecturers are overworked, unvalued and underpaid.

The only people who have broken their word here are the universities, as a condition to allowing top-up-fees universities promised to spend 1/3 on staff wage increases. The AUT reckons this is about 23% pay raise over 3 years and all the universities are prepared to deliver is half that, whilst they award pay raises in excess of 23% to their senior managers.

And if I want to be cynical all I really see is student's being selfish, they claim they support the lecturers, but as soon as they have to make a sacrifice in support they're having none of it.

Besides, quite frankly, if a university can't bypass the effects of the AUT strike then it is overworking it's lecturers considerably. Approximately 1/3 of all academic staff are AUT members. If a university can't cope with the strike action then it just goes to show what huge burdens of work they place on their lecturers. My university is one of the hardest hit by the AUT action. Within my university, my department is one of the hardest hit, yet my department has still managed to have all my essays marked and handed back.

These are good reasons for a pay raise, but not for union representation, nor for a strike. If the lecturers don't like their current conditions, then they are free to seek employment elsewhere, aren't they? That's what I do when I think I'm worth more than my salary.Well they have been attempting to secure a pay raise for over the last decade, using negoiations to start with and then increasingly larger industrial action. The universities have ignored all other attempts at pay negoiatations. As such, union representation IS needed.

With regards to your second question: I don't know, as I don't have the figures., nor can have I been able to find any.

However, after all that I've said, I am actually warey of the AUT as well as the universities. Neither of them have shown where they are getting their figures that they use to back up their claims. The AUT doesn't quote its sources and the universities won't open their books to show that they really can't afford to give a larger pay raise.

I have friends that have been massively screwed over by this "action", it's a fucking disgrace, as is my student body's support for them. They could easily have timed this so it did not clash with exams or graduation but they willfully chose not to. When people act with such ignorance, selfishness and disregard for responsibility I couldn't care less about the merits of their argument.
The whole point of striking now is that this is when their action will have the most effect. They're attempting to hold the universities to ransom and force an offer of a substantial pay rise. If they went on strike (for example) in the middle of February, there'd be less effect as exams would still be marked in May and June.

This issue has been around since February at the latest, and there was grumblings about it before that. The universities have had plenty of time to come to an agreement with the AUT and Natfhe (over three months) but haven't. The lecturers are perfectly within their rights to go on strike.

The resonance of the strike certainly will be compounded by the situation graduated now find themselves in, however in inadvertantly stripping students of degress, I rather think that the lecturers have abandoned the moral high ground and justification for this strike.

Granted, any strike in an educational establishment will have reprecussions for those who attend the establishment, however lecturers do have a right to strike, and they certainly publicise their plight through its timing.

Granted, any strike in an educational establishment will have reprecussions for those who attend the establishment, however lecturers do have a right to strike, and they certainly publicise their plight through its timing.

Lecturers do not have the right to use students futures as pawns in their chess game. Its very unfair on the students who have worked phonominally hard to get a degree and then they refuse to mark the exam papers. The students do a massive ammount of work to get here, it is only fair that the lecturers respect that and do their work too.

Lecturers do not have the right to use students futures as pawns in their chess game. Its very unfair on the students who have worked phonominally hard to get a degree and then they refuse to mark the exam papers. The students do a massive ammount of work to get here, it is only fair that the lecturers respect that and do their work too.
Am I the only one who finds it amusing that Adriatica II of all people is now a Pimp? :p

Lecturers do not have the right to use students futures as pawns in their chess game. Its very unfair on the students who have worked phonominally hard to get a degree and then they refuse to mark the exam papers. The students do a massive ammount of work to get here, it is only fair that the lecturers respect that and do their work too.

I accept that, the point I made was that any strike by lecturers will affect the students, so the principle itself is hard to uphold.

I accept that, the point I made was that any strike by lecturers will affect the students, so the principle itself is hard to uphold.

Yes, so strike at another time. Like say when it is less vital that they do their jobs. It is most vital now, in the summer when they are supposed to be marking exams. It is unreasonable that they should use the students futures like this.

Yes, so strike at another time. Like say when it is less vital that they do their jobs. It is most vital now, in the summer when they are supposed to be marking exams. It is unreasonable that they should use the students futures like this.

They started this months ago. The universities had plenty of time to do something. They didnt. The problem still exists. The lecturers did not just call this action, it has been on for months.

They started this months ago. The universities had plenty of time to do something. They didnt. The problem still exists. The lecturers did not just call this action, it has been on for months.

And they have not stoped the strike for exam season, which makes them guilty in this case. Their pay dispute is irrelevent to whether or not my friends should gradutate.

And they have not stoped the strike for exam season, which makes them guilty in this case. Their pay dispute is irrelevent to whether or not my friends should gradutate.

If they stopped as soon as they were needed to, then their strike means about jack shit. To be able to convince the universities to do something they have to show that they will strike even when it matters.

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If they stopped as soon as they were needed to, then their strike means about jack shit. To be able to convince the universities to do something they have to show that they will strike even when it matters.

When it matters is when the university students are about to graduate. Their pay dispute means nothing to my friends needing to graduate. They should not use peoples futures as leverage for their own gain.

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When it matters is when the university students are about to graduate. Their pay dispute means nothing to my friends needing to graduate. They should not use peoples futures as leverage for their own gain.

So what are they going to do? Give in as soon as their strike is going to inconveniance someone? How are they going to make the universities listen to them otherwise? Ask nicely and hope that for some unexplained reason the universities give in? This dispute has been going on for quite some time, even before they started this strike. The strike was a last resort.