NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm writing this to get a rational debate here. Personally I have serious reservations about Christianity's interpretation of God.

If there is so much suffering in the world, which is self evidant, how can the devine being be, as most Christian's would have us beleive, be both all loving and all powerful. Even accepting that he gave us free will to be what ever kind of being we may want to be and that he may have created mechanisms for ensuring we are not imortal does not account to crop failures, horrendous deseases, floods, volcanos, miscarriages etc.

I have come round to thinking of God as the "Scientists God", an entity that like to play with space and time, pyroclastics and creating the minutia of spiecies, but he doesn't give a flying toss about emotions and relationship or the quality if life of his "lab rats"

DEBATE:

The whole free will thing, not to mention the Big Guy kind of lets Gaia do what she needs to do to keep life on the planet.

free will

i would say live your so called rented body in this time frame and dont think to much about who,what,wehn,how,why, just get on with your life and live to the maximum without hurting others. Sounds simple enough but take a look around you, its the most difficult thing to accomplish

I'm writing this to get a rational debate here. Personally I have serious reservations about Christianity's interpretation of God.

If there is so much suffering in the world, which is self evidant, how can the devine being be, as most Christian's would have us beleive, be both all loving and all powerful. Even accepting that he gave us free will to be what ever kind of being we may want to be and that he may have created mechanisms for ensuring we are not imortal does not account to crop failures, horrendous deseases, floods, volcanos, miscarriages etc.

I have come round to thinking of God as the "Scientists God", an entity that like to play with space and time, pyroclastics and creating the minutia of spiecies, but he doesn't give a flying toss about emotions and relationship or the quality if life of his "lab rats"

DEBATE:Maybe he's not benevolent toward everyone. After all, Rev. Fred Phelps has determined that he hates gays and US soldiers. Maybe the only people he likes are Paris Hilton and Ryan Seacrest. They seem to be doing well lately.

The Cosmic Joke.

this life isnt supposed to be fair or good or just or pleasant.

god offers you the opportunity to participate in a perfect life in heaven. you dont have to do anything difficult, just follow a few simple rules and you get in. its not dependant on where you live or what family you come from or if you went to college or not. just on your own behavior.

whats so bad about that?

this life isnt supposed to be fair or good or just or pleasant.

god offers you the opportunity to participate in a perfect life in heaven. you dont have to do anything difficult, just follow a few simple rules and you get in. its not dependant on where you live or what family you come from or if you went to college or not. just on your own behavior.

whats so bad about that?

I'm sorry, but I can't accept that "if you play by the rules life will be perfect in the afterworld" nonsense - it abdicates our responsibility to care for the suffering of man on earth and exonerates the failing of a God made world in the here and now. I've seen babys dieing in Southern African and East Africa, I've seen abject poverty on the streets on Mumbai and Calcutta, Johanesburgh and Bulawayo. The most religious people i've ever met are either the richest who think their status is God given or the poorest who have nothing left to hold on to for support. While most I know in the middle range from rampant atheist to begrudging beleiver. I can't beleive in a God that allows such suffering and can still claim to be both all loving and all powerful. Either he is too weak to change things or doesn't give a monkey's.

this life isnt supposed to be fair or good or just or pleasant.

god offers you the opportunity to participate in a perfect life in heaven. you dont have to do anything difficult, just follow a few simple rules and you get in. its not dependant on where you live or what family you come from or if you went to college or not. just on your own behavior.

whats so bad about that?
What's bad about it is that he's all knowing. He already knows what decisions you will make of your own free will. Therefore by allowing murderers, rapists, and other lowlifes to be born and to torment people, and to allow such unrepentant sinners to be born with full knowledge that he will have to send them to eternal torment for the choices he knows they will make he's being perversely cruel.

Magic.

He knows all and loves screwing with peeps

One answer?

Incompetency.

He loves us, he can do absolutely anything, but he's not perfectly smart.

It's like the MMORPG admin who turns on global PVP to add a level of excitement without thinking about how the system can be abused and then is genuinely apologetic when newbs get mass-killed by griefers because of it.

It's a test to see if you can keep/gain faith, and attempt to help other people. God allows free will to cause (or alleviate) suffering as a test, I think at least. Rhoderick seems to think that "it [the afterlife] abdicates our responsibility to care for the suffering of man on earth" This it does not. Charity is a important thing in Christianity, and, if anything, we are obligated to help other people no matter who they are, Paraphrased from the famous Bible verse. He is all loving, but he, as I have said before, allows free will as a test to see who truly love him and will admit it to the world. Though he already knows who loves him, the progression of events on earth has to lead the induvidual to this conclusion.

I'm sorry, but I can't accept that "if you play by the rules life will be perfect in the afterworld" nonsense -

If it is nonsense then why did you start this thread?

it abdicates our responsibility to care for the suffering of man on earth and exonerates the failing of a God made world in the here and now.

Wrong. It does not adbicate our responsiblity to help those who are need. In fact, we are ENCOURAGED to help those in need. It is still our choice though wether we do or not.

I've seen babys dieing in Southern African and East Africa, I've seen abject poverty on the streets on Mumbai and Calcutta, Johanesburgh and Bulawayo.

And we are there helping those people in abject poverty. Providing them food, clothes, shelter, education.

The most religious people i've ever met are either the richest who think their status is God given or the poorest who have nothing left to hold on to for support.

ookk...and what makes you think that this is wrong?

While most I know in the middle range from rampant atheist to begrudging beleiver. I can't beleive in a God that allows such suffering and can still claim to be both all loving and all powerful. Either he is too weak to change things or doesn't give a monkey's.

It goes back to free will. He gives us free will to choose what we do.

What's bad about it is that he's all knowing. He already knows what decisions you will make of your own free will. Therefore by allowing murderers, rapists, and other lowlifes to be born and to torment people, and to allow such unrepentant sinners to be born with full knowledge that he will have to send them to eternal torment for the choices he knows they will make he's being perversely cruel.

We choose our own paths Dcd. We are not born these things.

It's a test to see if you can keep/gain faith, and attempt to help other people. God allows free will to cause (or alleviate) suffering as a test, I think at least. Rhoderick seems to think that "it [the afterlife] abdicates our responsibility to care for the suffering of man on earth" This it does not. Charity is a important thing in Christianity, and, if anything, we are obligated to help other people no matter who they are, Paraphrased from the famous Bible verse. He is all loving, but he, as I have said before, allows free will as a test to see who truly love him and will admit it to the world. Though he already knows who loves him, the progression of events on earth has to lead the induvidual to this conclusion.
Why does a being who knows everything need to test anything? Sorry, your argument just made your god a bit dumber.

It's like the MMORPG admin who turns on global PVP to add a level of excitement without thinking about how the system can be abused and then is genuinely apologetic when newbs get mass-killed by griefers because of it.

That's the most awesome explanation ever.

Free will is the cause of all our problems, not God. He respects are free will so much, that even if we choose to ruin ourselves, He shall not intervene. WE, through our sins and lack of faith, have caused the current state of the world, not the Father.

We choose our own paths Dcd. We are not born these things.
But a god who knows everything by definition of knowing everything knows what paths we will choose. By allowing those who will choose evil to come into being he's needlessly causing the suffering of humans on earth and the eternal suffering of sinners in hell. So either your god doesn't know everything or is just needlessly cruel, like a little kid frying ants with a magnifying glass.

Free will is the cause of all our problems, not God. He respects are free will so much, that even if we choose to ruin ourselves, He shall not intervene. WE, through our sins and lack of faith, have caused the current state of the world, not the Father.
Kind of like stumbling upon a woman being gang raped and choosing not to help her because it violates the rapists' free will. I get it now. God is an asshole.

He does know everything, however He chooses to allow our actions to destroy us. Yoda, pardon the Star Wars analogy, put it right 'Always in motion the future is". God knows all, however, the future is constantly changing, and He observes these changes.

Kind of like stumbling upon a woman being gang raped and choosing not to help her because it violates the rapists' free will. I get it now. God is an asshole.
If God was an asshole, wouldn't you have been struck by lightning right now?

Ah, actually, this is one of the many things that just always bothered me about Christianity. The long-and-short of it? God's not there; stop knockin'.

Hah, another question I asked and asked and asked before coming up with a satisfactory anwer, just so you can rant some more.
If God is so benevolent and loving, then why did it require the blood-sacrafice of his only son to get us into heaven? Couldn't we just have said "um, sorry man...we messed up," without him having to kill someone (especially his son) for the apology to be accepted?
Not to mention...if Jesus was still actually human (as he is said to be), then how was he able to never sin? Not a single sin in his lifetime...a little hard to believe, specifically if you believe in sins of the mind. (Dirty thoughts and the like, you know.) If you are human, you sin. Jesus was human, no?
For that matter, if we are not able to achieve perfection - never able to get to heaven through just "being good" - then why would God hold us to that in the first place? That's just cruel. And the Pagans and people who came before Jesus Christ? I've been told that "virtuous Pagans" made it into heaven because they didn't know any better. Ignorance is a ticket to paradise! So they got to go there because they were initially good people, right? But..."Jesus saith unto him I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." (John 14:6)
But then what is Matthew 5:8 about? "Blessed are the pure in heart: For they shall see God." Hmm.

The Bible and Christianity and Creationism in general are full of holes. But that's just one little Atheist talking.

Just for humor's sake, I'll end it with one of my favourites:
"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." (Matthew 15:14)

He does know everything, however He chooses to allow our actions to destroy us. Yoda, pardon the Star Wars analogy, put it right 'Always in motion the future is". God knows all, however, the future is constantly changing, and He observes these changes.
So if he knows all and has the power to alleviate suffering, but chooses not to, how can he claim to value compassion and charity? He's no better than an African warlord who's choices allow his people to starve. Some god you've got there.

If God was an asshole, wouldn't you have been struck by lightning right now?

No, because he has the "free will" to say those things.

If God was an asshole, wouldn't you have been struck by lightning right now?
Well there's this little matter of him not existing that kind of gets in the way. Or maybe he just wants me to make my arguments in hopes that some of you will be led astray so he can throw more souls into hell. Take your pick.

For the same reason kids take a magnifying glass to an anthill. They're lower lifeforms, their lives or deaths mean jack shit to us. They're just ants. To a god we wouldn't be anything more important than an ant.

Some of us get squished, it doesn't much matter.

Well there's this little matter of him not existing that kind of gets in the way. Or maybe he just wants me to make my arguments in hopes that some of you will be led astray so he can throw more souls into hell. Take your pick.
That won't stop God! Even not existing can't stop him.

For the same reason kids take a magnifying glass to an anthill. They're lower lifeforms, their lives or deaths mean jack shit to us. They're just ants. To a god we wouldn't be anything more important than an ant.

Some of us get squished, it doesn't much matter.
Which now ties this thread in with the Cthulhu thread. God = The Great Cthulhu.

Ah, actually, this is one of the many things that just always bothered me about Christianity. The long-and-short of it? God's not there; stop knockin'.

Hah, another question I asked and asked and asked before coming up with a satisfactory anwer, just so you can rant some more.
If God is so benevolent and loving, then why did it require the blood-sacrafice of his only son to get us into heaven? Couldn't we just have said "um, sorry man...we messed up," without him having to kill someone (especially his son) for the apology to be accepted?
Not to mention...if Jesus was still actually human (as he is said to be), then how was he able to never sin? Not a single sin in his lifetime...a little hard to believe, specifically if you believe in sins of the mind. (Dirty thoughts and the like, you know.) If you are human, you sin. Jesus was human, no?
For that matter, if we are not able to achieve perfection - never able to get to heaven through just "being good" - then why would God hold us to that in the first place? That's just cruel. And the Pagans and people who came before Jesus Christ? I've been told that "virtuous Pagans" made it into heaven because they didn't know any better. Ignorance is a ticket to paradise! So they got to go there because they were initially good people, right? But..."Jesus saith unto him I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." (John 14:6)
But then what is Matthew 5:8 about? "Blessed are the pure in heart: For they shall see God." Hmm.

The Bible and Christianity and Creationism in general are full of holes. But that's just one little Atheist talking.

Just for humor's sake, I'll end it with one of my favourites:
"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." (Matthew 15:14)
Wow.
Lemme begin:
First off, sending his only son to die for us MAKES him benevolent and loving, not the other way around. 2, by Christ belief in us, the Fathers trust in us was restored. By this death, He allowed for the Father to re-open the gates of heaven. Christ was both Human and Divine, he was kind of a mix. He felt human temptation and pain, however he endured it with Divine patience and faith. As for no human being perfect, ever heard of the Virgin Mary? As I said before, Christ changed the equation. By His passion, death and ressurection, the Fathers trust and love for Mankind was restored. by STRIVING for perfection and BELIEVING in Him, we achieve total salvation. No man can know God without knowing Christ, as Christ and God are 1 in the same. As for pagans, if they do not know and love Christ, amen, they are doomed. However, if they have had ABSOLUTELY NO EXPOSURE to His love, and His truth, then they shall be judged by their actions.

Why does a being who knows everything need to test anything? Sorry, your argument just made your god a bit dumber.


You misunderstood my statement. He is 'testing' US because he wants to lead us on the path to heaven, but He wants to get US to Realize we if will believe in Him under any circumstances, even though He already knows whether will. (aka he wants us to believe in him from our own free will) He is not like some scientist testing argon to see if it is poisonous because he does not know or something. Its like a partially rhetorical question. he already know the answer AND knows if we know, be he wants us to realize whether or not we know the answer.

Well there's this little matter of him not existing that kind of gets in the way. Or maybe he just wants me to make my arguments in hopes that some of you will be led astray so he can throw more souls into hell. Take your pick.
If you do not believe in Him, then it is pointless for us to even argue with you. You must come to the Father, no one can force you too.

You misunderstood my statement. He is 'testing' US because he wants to lead us on the path to heaven, but He wants to get US to Realize we if will believe in Him under any circumstances, even though He already knows whether will. (aka he wants us to believe in him from our own free will) He is not like some scientist testing argon to see if it is poisonous because he does not know or something. Its like a partially rhetorical question. he already know the answer AND knows if we know, be he wants us to realize whether or not we know the answer.
Good explanation.

Hm, so he sacrificed his son for that generation's sin. I didn't have any at that time, so that gift really doesn't have an influence over my decisions. If God exists as you describe, he sounds like a shitty father.

Hm, so he sacrificed his son for that generation's sin. I didn't have any at that time, so that gift really doesn't have an influence over my decisions. If God exists as you describe, he sounds like a shitty father.
Hey, Christ did not only remove the sins of 1 generation, His suffering OPENED THE GATES OF HEAVEN. Besides, Christ had the CHOICE to die. He WILLINGLY ACCEPTED His death so that WE may come to the Father, through Him.

Wow.
Lemme begin:
First off, sending his only son to die for us MAKES him benevolent and loving, not the other way around. 2, by Christ belief in us, the Fathers trust in us was restored. By this death, He allowed for the Father to re-open the gates of heaven. Christ was both Human and Divine, he was kind of a mix. He felt human temptation and pain, however he endured it with Divine patience and faith. As for no human being perfect, ever heard of the Virgin Mary? As I said before, Christ changed the equation. By His passion, death and ressurection, the Fathers trust and love for Mankind was restored. by STRIVING for perfection and BELIEVING in Him, we achieve total salvation. No man can know God without knowing Christ, as Christ and God are 1 in the same. As for pagans, if they do not know and love Christ, amen, they are doomed. However, if they have had ABSOLUTELY NO EXPOSURE to His love, and His truth, then they shall be judged by their actions.

But why did Jesus even have to die? After all, if God is so loving and kind and forgiving, wouldn't a simple apology do? Blood had to be spilled like some sacraficial animal on a stone altar for him to forgive us the things he considered sins? I have trouble believing that.
Even if Christ endured sins, in some churches, even feeling the temptation is a damnable offense. (See homosexuality) And, it says something about no man being perfect in God's eyes...so how did the Virgin Mary make it up to child-bearing age with no blemish? Doubtful.

We achieve salvation by...what...blind faith? I refuse to believe in something and someone so unsupported by reason. Logic has no place in Christianity, therefore Christianity has no place within logic. And logic is how I run my life. Rational views over faith any day.

Again, though, your theories don't answer my questions at all. Give me reasons other than "oh, you just have to believe!!" because so far as I'm concerned...the Bible is bunk.

Hey, Christ did not only remove the sins of 1 generation, His suffering OPENED THE GATES OF HEAVEN. Besides, Christ had the CHOICE to die. He WILLINGLY ACCEPTED His death so that WE may come to the Father, through Him.
Okay, but he knew he would come back. Now if a human died without knowledge of return, that'd be different.

God, "the force", who(what)ever created the preconditions for life. We exist to explore his/her/it´s handiwork and to ask the questions WHY and HOW. Every other reason we can come up with is merely our own egocentricity speaking.

We are not the be all and end all of creation, merely a tiny part of it.

Is the creator uncaring? Think on this. Whats the best way to grow? To go out and do and learn from your mistakes when you make them? or have daddy watch over you 24/7 and smooth out the wrinkles as you move through life?.

Life is a test. No one, not even the creator can sit that test for you. It´s all down to you.

Organised religions all suffer from the same malady. They stipulate that only through thier good graces can humanity find salvation. God either loves ALL of his creations or none of them. Three religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam all worship the same being. It´s just thier interpretation of his will that differs. Take a man (or woman) who works hard, supports thier family, does no intentional harm. That person would be at home in either of the three religions I have mentioned. Yet, for the best part of 2000 years we have been at each others throats. Why? Because of interpretation of the creators will by unscrupulous opportunists intent on increasing thier followers numbers, and thereby increasing thier worldly power.

Each of the three religions has persecuted, and in turn been persecuted in the name of the SAME God.

Does God care? I think he/she cares enough to let us live our own lives, to evolve individually and as a species; to grow, to be all that we can be.

The OP´s friend sounds as though she had a particularly hard test. If she lived her life the best she could no matter what was thrown her way, then she´s probably passed with flying colours. Aced her grades as it were. It´s not about how long you live, it´s about HOW you live.

But why did Jesus even have to die? After all, if God is so loving and kind and forgiving, wouldn't a simple apology do? Blood had to be spilled like some sacraficial animal on a stone altar for him to forgive us the things he considered sins? I have trouble believing that.
Even if Christ endured sins, in some churches, even feeling the temptation is a damnable offense. (See homosexuality) And, it says something about no man being perfect in God's eyes...so how did the Virgin Mary make it up to child-bearing age with no blemish? Doubtful.

We achieve salvation by...what...blind faith? I refuse to believe in something and someone so unsupported by reason. Logic has no place in Christianity, therefore Christianity has no place within logic. And logic is how I run my life. Rational views over faith any day.

Again, though, your theories don't answer my questions at all. Give me reasons other than "oh, you just have to believe!!" because so far as I'm concerned...the Bible is bunk.
The Father LOST FAITH IN MANKIND! Christ PROVED that Man is CAPABLE of good. Feeling the temptaion is not a sin, lust however is. There is good reason she was chosen as the Mother of God, she LIVED WITHOUT SIN! Also, she is the ETERNAL Virgin, meaning, well, I really don't have to explain that here. Salvation is not achieved through faith alone, but by good works and evangilization, however, faith is the most important.

Someone has been taking a University course in "Evil", havn't they? My roommate said pretty much the title of this thread two months back because it was the introduction to the course. It's also been an age-old question that's been asked for centuries.

Before you can ask these questions, you must ask yourself if God exists/if you beleive God exists.
To this end I suggest you study in depth the workings of the body. Your organs are made up of microscopic cells with their own brains that govern how they reproduce and what particles they absorb, how they move, etc. DNA, biologic information that makes up our entire body, can be found in crime scenes from hair follicles, skin tissues, blood, everything, and yet the people who work with it don't even realize the importance of their work. One of the most complicated codes in the entire world exists IN EVERY CELL OF OUR BODY. To just understand DNA, you need to know about complex chemical bonding, as well as the structures of Adenine, Thymine, Guanine and Cytosine, which are complex cyclic acids. Just throwing these in a bag and shaking doesn't make DNA. Just throwing the chemicals that make up a human in a bag and shaking does not make humans. It is the ORDER that counts.

Thusly; a human being 'evolving' is a process that is a HIGH HIGH decrease in entropy, which, in universe of ever INCREASING entropy should be nearly impossible. Some scientists have used this to further argue that we must be the only race alive in the universe. I argue that even we shouldn't be alive. There MUST be an intelligent creator of some sort, whether omnipotent or otherwise.

Oh, and if he IS Omnipotent and all-loving, he loves us too much to step in and correct us. Remember all those times when you wanted to do something really stupid (by yourself or with a member of the opposite sex or whatever) and someone tried to stop you? When we don't do it, we don't really learn the consequences. Many people cannot live vicariously, and must experience pain of mistakes by themselves. God wants pain here to teach you.

The Father LOST FAITH IN MANKIND! Christ PROVED that Man is CAPABLE of good. Feeling the temptaion is not a sin, lust however is. There is good reason she was chosen as the Mother of God, she LIVED WITHOUT SIN! Also, she is the ETERNAL Virgin, meaning, well, I really don't have to explain that here. Salvation is not achieved through faith alone, but by good works and evangilization, however, faith is the most important.

Lost faith? How did he lose faith in us when it was his plan the whole time to send his Son to die for us?

You misunderstood my statement. He is 'testing' US because he wants to lead us on the path to heaven, but He wants to get US to Realize we if will believe in Him under any circumstances, even though He already knows whether will. (aka he wants us to believe in him from our own free will) He is not like some scientist testing argon to see if it is poisonous because he does not know or something. Its like a partially rhetorical question. he already know the answer AND knows if we know, be he wants us to realize whether or not we know the answer.
That's not testing then, it's abuse. It's like slapping your wife around so she realizes that dinner needs to be on the table when you get home.

"How can God be both All lovig and omnipitant while the world is so f****d up"

Ah! But by whose definition is the world "fucked up?" Hmmmm???

God, "the force", who(what)ever created the preconditions for life. We exist to explore his/her/it´s handiwork and to ask the questions WHY and HOW. Every other reason we can come up with is merely our own egocentricity speaking.

We are not the be all and end all of creation, merely a tiny part of it.

Is the creator uncaring? Think on this. Whats the best way to grow? To go out and do and learn from your mistakes when you make them? or have daddy watch over you 24/7 and smooth out the wrinkles as you move through life?.

Life is a test. No one, not even the creator can sit that test for you. It´s all down to you.

Organised religions all suffer from the same malady. They stipulate that only through thier good graces can humanity find salvation. God either loves ALL of his creations or none of them. Three religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam all worship the same being. It´s just thier interpretation of his will that differs. Take a man (or woman) who works hard, supports thier family, does no intentional harm. That person would be at home in either of the three religions I have mentioned. Yet, for the best part of 2000 years we have been at each others throats. Why? Because of interpretation of the creators will by unscrupulous opportunists intent on increasing thier followers numbers, and thereby increasing thier worldly power.

Each of the three religions has persecuted, and in turn been persecuted in the name of the SAME God.

Does God care? I think he/she cares enough to let us live our own lives, to evolve individually and as a species; to grow, to be all that we can be.

The OP´s friend sounds as though she had a particularly hard test. If she lived her life the best she could no matter what was thrown her way, then she´s probably passed with flying colours. Aced her grades as it were. It´s not about how long you live, it´s about HOW you live.
Spoken like a true agnostic. For 1 thing, God the Father and Allah ARE NOT THE SAME BEING! God preaches love and truth, Allah preaches death and destruction. Another thing, WORKS ALONE CANNOT SAVE YOU! If that 1 family member does not belive, then he/she is doomed.

That's not testing then, it's abuse. It's like slapping your wife around so she realizes that dinner needs to be on the table when you get home.
Heh! Well, at least she would remember it! :D :rolleyes:

"How can God be both All lovig and omnipitant while the world is so f****d up"

Ah! But by whose definition is the world "fucked up?" Hmmmm???
indeed

The Father LOST FAITH IN MANKIND! Christ PROVED that Man is CAPABLE of good. Feeling the temptaion is not a sin, lust however is. There is good reason she was chosen as the Mother of God, she LIVED WITHOUT SIN! Also, she is the ETERNAL Virgin, meaning, well, I really don't have to explain that here. Salvation is not achieved through faith alone, but by good works and evangilization, however, faith is the most important.

But if "the Father" could see all that we'd done and all that we would do, why did he have to send Christ to earth to die? If he knew that some part of mankind would ask for salvation, couldn't he just forgive them and leave it at that?
How? How did Mary live without sin when it says in the Bible that that is impossible for any human to do? Unless she was an alien, I see no possibilities that don't contradict your beliefs, and contradictions do not exist. If you think you find one, you should check one of your premises. (Haha, Atlas Shrugged...oh, Doc Akston.)
So, wait, I have to talk about salvation to others and be good? But God forgives all sins through faith and through one asking for salvation...isn't that right? It's what I've been told all these years. If I asked him to forgive me, but stayed inside as a hermit and told no one of his love and lusted after other women...would I still get into Heaven?

Someone has been taking a University course in "Evil", havn't they? My roommate said pretty much the title of this thread two months back because it was the introduction to the course. It's also been an age-old question that's been asked for centuries.

Before you can ask these questions, you must ask yourself if God exists/if you beleive God exists.
To this end I suggest you study in depth the workings of the body. Your organs are made up of microscopic cells with their own brains that govern how they reproduce and what particles they absorb, how they move, etc. DNA, biologic information that makes up our entire body, can be found in crime scenes from hair follicles, skin tissues, blood, everything, and yet the people who work with it don't even realize the importance of their work. One of the most complicated codes in the entire world exists IN EVERY CELL OF OUR BODY. To just understand DNA, you need to know about complex chemical bonding, as well as the structures of Adenine, Thymine, Guanine and Cytosine, which are complex cyclic acids. Just throwing these in a bag and shaking doesn't make DNA. Just throwing the chemicals that make up a human in a bag and shaking does not make humans. It is the ORDER that counts.

Thusly; a human being 'evolving' is a process that is a HIGH HIGH decrease in entropy, which, in universe of ever INCREASING entropy should be nearly impossible. Some scientists have used this to further argue that we must be the only race alive in the universe. I argue that even we shouldn't be alive. There MUST be an intelligent creator of some sort, whether omnipotent or otherwise.

Oh, and if he IS Omnipotent and all-loving, he loves us too much to step in and correct us. Remember all those times when you wanted to do something really stupid (by yourself or with a member of the opposite sex or whatever) and someone tried to stop you? When we don't do it, we don't really learn the consequences. Many people cannot live vicariously, and must experience pain of mistakes by themselves. God wants pain here to teach you.
You clearly don't know much about science. Read the thread on the second law of thermodynamics.

Someone has been taking a University course in "Evil", havn't they? My roommate said pretty much the title of this thread two months back because it was the introduction to the course. It's also been an age-old question that's been asked for centuries.

Before you can ask these questions, you must ask yourself if God exists/if you beleive God exists.
To this end I suggest you study in depth the workings of the body. Your organs are made up of microscopic cells with their own brains that govern how they reproduce and what particles they absorb, how they move, etc. DNA, biologic information that makes up our entire body, can be found in crime scenes from hair follicles, skin tissues, blood, everything, and yet the people who work with it don't even realize the importance of their work. One of the most complicated codes in the entire world exists IN EVERY CELL OF OUR BODY. To just understand DNA, you need to know about complex chemical bonding, as well as the structures of Adenine, Thymine, Guanine and Cytosine, which are complex cyclic acids. Just throwing these in a bag and shaking doesn't make DNA. Just throwing the chemicals that make up a human in a bag and shaking does not make humans. It is the ORDER that counts.

Thusly; a human being 'evolving' is a process that is a HIGH HIGH decrease in entropy, which, in universe of ever INCREASING entropy should be nearly impossible. Some scientists have used this to further argue that we must be the only race alive in the universe. I argue that even we shouldn't be alive. There MUST be an intelligent creator of some sort, whether omnipotent or otherwise.

Oh, and if he IS Omnipotent and all-loving, he loves us too much to step in and correct us. Remember all those times when you wanted to do something really stupid (by yourself or with a member of the opposite sex or whatever) and someone tried to stop you? When we don't do it, we don't really learn the consequences. Many people cannot live vicariously, and must experience pain of mistakes by themselves. God wants pain here to teach you.
Brilliant

Spoken like a true agnostic. For 1 thing, God the Father and Allah ARE NOT THE SAME BEING! God preaches love and truth, Allah preaches death and destruction. Another thing, WORKS ALONE CANNOT SAVE YOU! If that 1 family member does not belive, then he/she is doomed.
Alll of which makes me want to go out and SHOOT myself! :rolleyes:

I see that my question got ignored.

That one post has changed my ways. Here I come Jesus, Mary, and Benny.

I'm writing this to get a rational debate here. Personally I have serious reservations about Christianity's interpretation of God.

If there is so much suffering in the world, which is self evidant, how can the devine being be, as most Christian's would have us beleive, be both all loving and all powerful. Even accepting that he gave us free will to be what ever kind of being we may want to be and that he may have created mechanisms for ensuring we are not imortal does not account to crop failures, horrendous deseases, floods, volcanos, miscarriages etc.

I have come round to thinking of God as the "Scientists God", an entity that like to play with space and time, pyroclastics and creating the minutia of spiecies, but he doesn't give a flying toss about emotions and relationship or the quality if life of his "lab rats"

DEBATE:

This is indeed a big question. I recomend the following reading material if you wish to see some interesting analysis of it

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/gr5part1.html

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/natevl.html

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/evilgod.html

But if "the Father" could see all that we'd done and all that we would do, why did he have to send Christ to earth to die? If he knew that some part of mankind would ask for salvation, couldn't he just forgive them and leave it at that?
How? How did Mary live without sin when it says in the Bible that that is impossible for any human to do? Unless she was an alien, I see no possibilities that don't contradict your beliefs, and contradictions do not exist. If you think you find one, you should check one of your premises. (Haha, Atlas Shrugged...oh, Doc Akston.)
So, wait, I have to talk about salvation to others and be good? But God forgives all sins through faith and through one asking for salvation...isn't that right? It's what I've been told all these years. If I asked him to forgive me, but stayed inside as a hermit and told no one of his love and lusted after other women...would I still get into Heaven?

Th Bible does not say it is impossible to live without sin, maybe if you actually READ it you would know. God works in mysterious ways, won't you feel silly at the end of time when all of His plans are revealed to you? How many times do I have to say it FAITH ALONE WILL NOT SAVE YOU! Saying "I believe and then sinning again, and again, and again, is NOT the road to salvation! Falling into sin, but then ASKING for forgiveness, TRYING to avoid the sin, but failing anyway is. Eventually uou will grow stronger then the sin, and avoid it reugarly.

The Father LOST FAITH IN MANKIND! Christ PROVED that Man is CAPABLE of good. Feeling the temptaion is not a sin, lust however is. There is good reason she was chosen as the Mother of God, she LIVED WITHOUT SIN! Also, she is the ETERNAL Virgin, meaning, well, I really don't have to explain that here. Salvation is not achieved through faith alone, but by good works and evangilization, however, faith is the most important.

How can god lose faith in us? He knows what the future is, he knows we're gonna be okay. In fact, he knows what would happen if he send an exploding sheep down upon a man's house, and he could do it.

God is not a man. Repeat this with me. God - is - not - a - man. He does not have "faith", he does not have "love", he does not have "compassion", because he is eternal and all-knowing. What he DOES have is a PR department that DOES have love, and compassion, but not faith, because god having faith is redundant because he already knows everything so that ruins the point of faith.

By the way, notice I don't capitalize "god". Why? Because "god" isn't his NAME, it's his TITLE. If it was "John, the God" then it would be a proper noun and would therefore require a capital.

I know people will argue this, but it's not the guy's name. Way back before Hebrews were even thought of, there were the Egyptians and the Romans and the Greeks. They had gods. Plural. Gods. Many of them. They had names, and they -were- gods. They had the title of "god". After that, some dude came up and went "There is but one true god!", speaking of course, of THE god, and he never found out the guy's name! It's like if we just kept referring to Jesus as "savior" and never asked him what his actual name was, or if you never found out what your mom's first name was and kept calling her mom without caring.

John the God.
Jesus the Christ.
Phillip the Antichrist.
Bob the Builder. Yes we can!

"Free will" might explain why God allows wars and crime, and all the s**t that humans inflict on us. But why does He allow tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes, and all those other natural disasters? And diseases? There's a lot of suffering, and not all of it is caused by evil people. Some of it is from "Acts of God", as the insurance companies would say.

I see that my question got ignored.
What question?

What question?

How did God lose faith in us when it was His intentions of sending down his Son to die for us the whole time?

To the OP question:

It's because God as a human perception was created by humans. Thus our notion of God is necessarily flawed and subject to interpretations based on human failings. This is how God, the God of Love, can be used to justify so much cruelty, prejudice, hatred and death. At least, that's the humanity side of things. As for why "shit happens", I'm with Carlin who opined that God might be the Creator, but after doing that, God decided to lay back and watch it all unfold...in short, God "doesn't give a shit". I'm not sure how much I believe in a disinterested, childish experimentor as the Almighty, but it's just an idea.

I believe in the Divine, but I'd never claim to have Its telephone number.

You clearly don't know much about science. Read the thread on the second law of thermodynamics.
I get this alot around the University of Waterloo.

Personally, I think our current definition of entropy is flawed, but that notwithstanding, second law bascically says "Entropy will increase in an isolated system not at equilibrium approaching a liminial maximum." And that this is applicable to macroscopic organisms, say human beings.

Or, if first law was "You can't win", second law is "You can't even break even".

Some opponents of evolution claim that life exhibits complexity whose nature differs from the autonomous complexity and self-organisation which the Second Law allows. The consensus of scientific opinion is that this claim is not well-founded, and that no such distinction can be sustained. For further discussion see Creation-evolution controversy.

The 'consensus' (agree or say goodbye to your scholarship, labcoat drone) is that this claim is not well founded. So if you don't mind me asking here, (not agressively) what is your argument?

The thing I love about debates is that everyone learns something, so please do not get angry or frustrated at the people here.

If indeed God is not God's name, then I do not consider myself worthy to know it. Until such time as He reveals it to me, I will continue to capitalize God out of respect. Saying God lost faith in man was probably a mistake obn my part, lemme rephrase that. God, after being ignored and disrespected for thousands of years, decided to test the human race. He sent His only Son, Christ, down to Earth. Christ HAD HUMAN NATURE, but because of His divinity He resitsted sin! This, and his self-sacrificing death, proved to man that God is Love, and that we CAN achieve salvation if we only call on His mercy.

How did God lose faith in us when it was His intentions of sending down his Son to die for us the whole time?
He changed his mind?

To the OP question:

It's because God as a human perception was created by humans. Thus our notion of God is necessarily flawed and subject to interpretations based on human failings. This is how God, the God of Love, can be used to justify so much cruelty, prejudice, hatred and death. At least, that's the humanity side of things. As for why "shit happens", I'm with Carlin who opined that God might be the Creator, but after doing that, God decided to lay back and watch it all unfold...in short, God "doesn't give a shit". I'm not sure how much I believe in a disinterested, childish experimentor as the Almighty, but it's just an idea.

I believe in the Divine, but I'd never claim to have Its telephone number.

I play online scrabble with the guy occasionally. Bastard knows all the words in every language - sometimes he just makes up a word. What the hell am I gonna say, "That's not a word"? If god says 'Sciomatochitroditron' is a word, who the hell am I to disagree with him? He can make words. He's god. He's a cheating bastard at scrabble, though.

How did God lose faith in us when it was His intentions of sending down his Son to die for us the whole time?
Probably because he thinks the world is too screwed up right now to change with just one little man. That or he could only do it once.

Also in answer to the original poster:

It because what we do here is down to us and has nowt to do with God.

How did God lose faith in us when it was His intentions of sending down his Son to die for us the whole time?
As I said earlier, saying God lost faith in us was a mistake on my part. God basically sent Christ down that we may know His Love. Christ death for Man allowed for us to see that God is Love.

Before you can ask these questions, you must ask yourself if God exists/if you beleive God exists.
To this end I suggest you study in depth the workings of the body. Your organs are made up of microscopic cells with their own brains that govern how they reproduce and what particles they absorb, how they move, etc. DNA, biologic information that makes up our entire body, can be found in crime scenes from hair follicles, skin tissues, blood, everything, and yet the people who work with it don't even realize the importance of their work. One of the most complicated codes in the entire world exists IN EVERY CELL OF OUR BODY. To just understand DNA, you need to know about complex chemical bonding, as well as the structures of Adenine, Thymine, Guanine and Cytosine, which are complex cyclic acids. Just throwing these in a bag and shaking doesn't make DNA. Just throwing the chemicals that make up a human in a bag and shaking does not make humans. It is the ORDER that counts.

Thusly; a human being 'evolving' is a process that is a HIGH HIGH decrease in entropy, which, in universe of ever INCREASING entropy should be nearly impossible. Some scientists have used this to further argue that we must be the only race alive in the universe. I argue that even we shouldn't be alive. There MUST be an intelligent creator of some sort, whether omnipotent or otherwise.

Nice. Although I don't agree with you, I can certainly appreciate a well-thought-out and intelligent viewpoint. Thanks for that.
It is true that the universe, if we assume that it came into being as a result of a "big bang" or some such thing, is becoming less and less chaotic over time, correct? After all, the instability of the beginning of all existence was incredible. Gaseous clouds and small bits of solids formed from those...all mucking around in space...it was literally just chaos.
But from chaos must come order...and things formed from fusion (matter flying through space with little to no gravitational pull can reach amazing speeds) and from general combining of matter to form other matter.
Now, with that in mind, evolution is very much possible. A lifeform (the tiniest living thing you can imagine: no brain to speak of, no nerve endings, etc) evolves out of the muck and ooze that is the product of billions of years of chaos being reformed into order. What is the point, the reason for this little creature? Well, there is an urge, of cours, a) to reproduce and b) to take advantage of and adapt to one's surroundings and environment.
The reproduction bit's easy, what with the simple structure of it. And the surroundings bit? Well, they begin, after generations and years and generations and many more years, to develop certain tendencies.
Blah blah blah, evolution...long story short, you can see my views. Any more explanation will be provided on request. Hah.

Also...what is intelligence? Just...for argument's sake. What is the source of any intelligence? (I have an answer myself, if you want it.)

Probably because he thinks the world is too screwed up right now to change with just one little man. That or he could only do it once.
Yeah, fuck that whole omnipotent thing.

Hi, I couldn't help but read your thread. I'm a philosophy/Religious studies student who's been studying exactly the question your asking, it's refered to as the incomplete triangle and to put it simply it isn't possible to prove the existence/qualities of God via logic. The use of logic is a human faculty, and by trying to use it to answer the question your trying to answer you are applying an intelligible concept to an unintelligible entity.

Yeah, fuck that whole omnipotent thing.
God respects are free will so much, that He allows us to choose our own paths. He knows what we will do, but stys out of our way anyhow. Not to say that I believe in pre-destination, as I said earlier, Always in motion the future is.

If indeed God is not God's name, then I do not consider myself worthy to know it. Until such time as He reveals it to me, I will continue to capitalize God out of respect. Saying God lost faith in man was probably a mistake obn my part, lemme rephrase that. God, after being ignored and disrespected for thousands of years, decided to test the human race. He sent His only Son, Christ, down to Earth. Christ HAD HUMAN NATURE, but because of His divinity He resitsted sin! This, and his self-sacrificing death, proved to man that God is Love, and that we CAN achieve salvation if we only call on His mercy.

Yeah but he did it in a really emo and inefficiently dramatic way.

Could've been a lot simpler if he just, y'know, did it himself. Don't gimme that "You can't communicate with god in person, your head would explode" crap, if god wanted to do something, he could do it. Easily. He's god. A huge PA system could appear in every city in the world, he could've just come on and said something along the lines of "Uh, yeah - god here. Just wanted to let you guys know to be better to eachother, and I'd like a little recognition for creating you guys now and then. Originally my plan was to send down my son and let him talk to you guys, but I figured that would only end in bloodshed - why the hell would I do that, when obviously, being god, I have infinite other possibilities to accomplish this task. But yeah, if you have any questions or doubts or anything like that, lemme know. Actually, don't - I already know them, so I'll just prove it to you guys now. Watch this, I always get a kick out of it."

Sends a hundred exploding sheep into an open, empty field in every city. I'd be convinced.

I play online scrabble with the guy occasionally. Bastard knows all the words in every language - sometimes he just makes up a word. What the hell am I gonna say, "That's not a word"? If god says 'Sciomatochitroditron' is a word, who the hell am I to disagree with him? He can make words. He's god. He's a cheating bastard at scrabble, though.

You win at...well...everything.
'Cept Scrabble.

Hi, I couldn't help but read your thread. I'm a philosophy/Religious studies student who's been studying exactly the question your asking, it's refered to as the incomplete triangle and to put it simply it isn't possible to prove the existence/qualities of God via logic. The use of logic is a human faculty, and by trying to use it to answer the question your trying to answer you are applying an intelligible concept to an unintelligible entity.
Thank you!

Why Should it be God's responsibility (if he indeed does exist) to meddle in the lives of man? Why can't you go out the door and change the world? Yes there are children dying in Africa, but what are you doing to change that?

When a house is built, the guy who built it isnt then responisble for keeping it clean, the family who dwells there does. Therefore, God shouldn't have to keep on wiping our metaphorical behinds all of the time, human beings have to do it themselves,to paraphrase Gahndi, you have to be the change you want to see in the world...if you see injustice, stop it. You gotta be the guy/gal who stands up and says ( to quote Stanley Spadowski from UHF) "This floor is as dirty as hell, and im not gonna take it any more!" Sure the first to stand up is the first to get shot, but sometimes you need to be that first...

But thats just MY opinion...

Yeah but he did it in a really emo and inefficiently dramatic way.

Could've been a lot simpler if he just, y'know, did it himself. Don't gimme that "You can't communicate with god in person, your head would explode" crap, if god wanted to do something, he could do it. Easily. He's god. A huge PA system could appear in every city in the world, he could've just come on and said something along the lines of "Uh, yeah - god here. Just wanted to let you guys know to be better to eachother, and I'd like a little recognition for creating you guys now and then. Originally my plan was to send down my son and let him talk to you guys, but I figured that would only end in bloodshed - why the hell would I do that, when obviously, being god, I have infinite other possibilities to accomplish this task. But yeah, if you have any questions or doubts or anything like that, lemme know. Actually, don't - I already know them, so I'll just prove it to you guys now. Watch this, I always get a kick out of it."

Sends a hundred exploding sheep into an open, empty field in every city. I'd be convinced.
Again, He is testing us! If He ust started broadcasting to the world, we wouldn't need much faith would we,as we hear him? God respects our choice! He is sad when we choose the Devil opver him, but respects the Free Will that he gave us.

Hi, I couldn't help but read your thread. I'm a philosophy/Religious studies student who's been studying exactly the question your asking, it's refered to as the incomplete triangle and to put it simply it isn't possible to prove the existence/qualities of God via logic. The use of logic is a human faculty, and by trying to use it to answer the question your trying to answer you are applying an intelligible concept to an unintelligible entity.


Yep I agree it is sorta, and remember I only said sorta, impossible to answer questions of a metaphyiscal nature without recourse to metaphyisical knowledge.
In short you won't be able to comprehend God using just logic.

Why Should it be God's responsibility (if he indeed does exist) to meddle in the lives of man? Why can't you go out the door and change the world? Yes there are children dying in Africa, but what are you doing to change that?

When a house is built, the guy who built it isnt then responisble for keeping it clean, the family who dwells there does. Therefore, God shouldn't have to keep on wiping our metaphorical behinds all of the time, human beings have to do it themselves,to paraphrase Gahndi, you have to be the change you want to see in the world...if you see injustice, stop it. You gotta be the guy/gal who stands up and says ( to quote Stanley Spadowski from UHF) "This floor is as dirty as hell, and im not gonna take it any more!" Sure the first to stand up is the first to get shot, but sometimes you need to be that first...

But thats just MY opinion...
YES! This is it!

Why Should it be God's responsibility (if he indeed does exist) to meddle in the lives of man? Why can't you go out the door and change the world? Yes there are children dying in Africa, but what are you doing to change that?

When a house is built, the guy who built it isnt then responisble for keeping it clean, the family who dwells there does. Therefore, God shouldn't have to keep on wiping our metaphorical behinds all of the time, human beings have to do it themselves,to paraphrase Gahndi, you have to be the change you want to see in the world...if you see injustice, stop it. You gotta be the guy/gal who stands up and says ( to quote Stanley Spadowski from UHF) "This floor is as dirty as hell, and im not gonna take it any more!" Sure the first to stand up is the first to get shot, but sometimes you need to be that first...

But thats just MY opinion...

Your post, like many others in here, ignored that whole "act of god" thing.

Seems to be that all the "acts of god" are negative. Tidal waves, earthquakes, random cancerous pinky toes. That sorta thing.

But from chaos must come order...and things formed from fusion (matter flying through space with little to no gravitational pull can reach amazing speeds) and from general combining of matter to form other matter.

This is the opposite of the scientific view. Without ENERGY inputted, things go to Chaos. Your room for example, unless you maintain/clean it, gets messy.
There are arguments of a subtle force that combats entropy always, at a cost of energy, but that gets into metaphysics, which is not yet considered Science Proper.

A lifeform (the tiniest living thing you can imagine: no brain to speak of, no nerve endings, etc) evolves out of the muck and ooze that is the product of billions of years of chaos being reformed into order. What is the point, the reason for this little creature? Well, there is an urge, of cours, a) to reproduce and b) to take advantage of and adapt to one's surroundings and environment.
The reproduction bit's easy, what with the simple structure of it. And the surroundings bit? Well, they begin, after generations and years and generations and many more years, to develop certain tendencies.
Blah blah blah, evolution...long story short, you can see my views. Any more explanation will be provided on request. Hah.

Also...what is intelligence? Just...for argument's sake. What is the source of any intelligence? (I have an answer myself, if you want it.)
I agree with single-celled evolution but the body is made up of BILLIONS of TRILLIONS of cells working together to keep the marvel of the body maintained. The body is more complex then our best computers and robots. When you take a look at the programming necessary for depth perception, for a robots' DEPTH PERCEPTION, yet we do it so easily, and quickly enough to do bike jumps, play chicken with trains and avoid mid-air collisions with enemey craft. "Woah"

As I said earlier, saying God lost faith in us was a mistake on my part. God basically sent Christ down that we may know His Love. Christ death for Man allowed for us to see that God is Love.

Just thought I call attention to it.

Your post, like many others in here, ignored that whole "act of god" thing.

Seems to be that all the "acts of god" are negative. Tidal waves, earthquakes, random cancerous pinky toes. That sorta thing.


yeah but the whole 'act of God' is what we call it, or more possible what our insurance people call acts of nature, it is not really an act of God. Heh exceptin for the fact that God kicked the whole of creation off, so ultimatly all is an act of God.

YES! This is it!

Dude, stop clinging to every person who posts something that doesn't clash with your opinion.

Sure, everyone could do a little more to help the world. That's kind of off-topic, though, because we're talking about what god can do to help the world. He's kind of got more ability to do so, being omnipotent and all-knowing. I know my resume can't even touch that. Can yours? Hell no.

-

God
All-knowing deity
Work experience: Creating the universe, microwaving popcorn so none of it burns.

Acts of God are acts of nature, again, the whole Let Mother Earth act naturally.

Hi, I couldn't help but read your thread. I'm a philosophy/Religious studies student who's been studying exactly the question your asking, it's refered to as the incomplete triangle and to put it simply it isn't possible to prove the existence/qualities of God via logic. The use of logic is a human faculty, and by trying to use it to answer the question your trying to answer you are applying an intelligible concept to an unintelligible entity.

An "unintelligible entity" means nothing. If something is unitelligible, then you know nothing of it. Nothing can be known about it. Period.
So...if god is unintelligible, how do we know anything about him at all?

"It doesn't have to make sense! It's GOD! DURR!"

Seems to be that all the "acts of god" are negative. Tidal waves, earthquakes, random cancerous pinky toes. That sorta thing.

But that then raises issues as to whether God is eternal or everlasting.

How can God be both All lovig and omnipitant while the world is so f****d up ?


thats easy to answer, god has a sense of humor, and he loves fuckin' with his people.

yeah but the whole 'act of God' is what we call it, or more possible what our insurance people call acts of nature, it is not really an act of God. Heh exceptin for the fact that God kicked the whole of creation off, so ultimatly all is an act of God.

Now you're gettin' it. The entire universe is an act of god, therefore, all of it can be blamed on god. If he didn't make it, it wouldn't have happened.

thats easy to answer, god has a sense of humor, and he loves fuckin' with his people.
God may have a sense of humor, but he doesn't f**** with us just for the hell of it. Everything in this life is a test.

Now you're gettin' it. The entire universe is an act of god, therefore, all of it can be blamed on god. If he didn't make it, it wouldn't have happened.


Yeah but that does not follow that God is not a loving God.

I'm a father, if one day bad things happen to my children does that make me a non loving Dad, just because I made them?

God may have a sense of humor, but he doesn't f**** with us just for the hell of it. Everything in this life is a test.


oh come on you dont think god gets bored one day and just goes "hey i wanna see these 2 countries fight, let me get a muse to inspire people to make some cartoons....."


god does have a sense of humor, look at the platypus

Indeed He does, but He is love! Nothing happens in this world that is without purpose.

Now you're gettin' it. The entire universe is an act of god, therefore, all of it can be blamed on god. If he didn't make it, it wouldn't have happened.
That's a statement of faith, not fact. Unless, of course, you have evidence that suggests god(s) exists and creates universes.

God may have a sense of humor, but he doesn't f**** with us just for the hell of it. Everything in this life is a test.
Once again, if you know everything (as god is reputed to) you don't need to test. It's not testing, it's torture.

Indeed He does, but He is love! Nothing happens in this world that is without purpose.
He is love? Somehow I don't equate genocidal maniac with love.

Yeah but that does not follow that God is not a loving God.

I'm a father, if one day bad things happen to my children does that make me a non loving Dad, just because I made them?

Slight difference. God didn't give birth to you in a world that was already created.

God not only created the world, he created the universe. He created the laws of physics, he created human nature, he created evil, he created good, he created apathy.


Now, if you had a daughter and you kept her in a room her entire life, but you also put a dog in there that kept biting her, you would have nobody but yourself to blame.

I agree with single-celled evolution but the body is made up of BILLIONS of TRILLIONS of cells working together to keep the marvel of the body maintained. The body is more complex then our best computers and robots. When you take a look at the programming necessary for depth perception, for a robots' DEPTH PERCEPTION, yet we do it so easily, and quickly enough to do bike jumps, play chicken with trains and avoid mid-air collisions with enemey craft. "Woah"

Just because something's complex doesn't mean it had to be designed by something or someone. Besides...meiosis and cell-level mutations the whole support behind the evolution theory. It's not two cells randomly crashing into each other and joining...it's things mutating and evolving to take advantage of their environment.

And you never answered my other question. What is intelligence?

Yeah but that does not follow that God is not a loving God.

I'm a father, if one day bad things happen to my children does that make me a non loving Dad, just because I made them?
That depends. If you allow your kids to get into the liquor cabinet and then go play in traffic you're not a loving parent.

That's a statement of faith, not fact. Unless, of course, you have evidence that suggests god(s) exists and creates universes.

Oh, I thought the basis on this entire thread was assuming god was the creator of everything. If that's not a given then none of us really has anything to talk about.

That's a statement of faith, not fact. Unless, of course, you have evidence that suggests god(s) exists and creates universes.
As I said before, if you do not believe, why are you wasting your time? You are not going to shake my faith. I have a duty to evangilize, you do not believe in the truth. I am not going to waste anymore time pn you. AS Christ said
"If they reject you and insult you, amen I say to you, shake the sand from your feet and leave that town."
So now I leave you. Goodbye, Atheist. If you decide to hear the truth, lemme know. I will be glad to talk with you then.

That's a statement of faith, not fact. Unless, of course, you have evidence that suggests god(s) exists and creates universes.


Yeah but seeing as we are talking about faith based facts, then there is nowt wrong with that huh?

Indeed He does, but He is love! Nothing happens in this world that is without purpose.
One more statement of faith rather than fact.

[QUOTE=Szanth]Dude, stop clinging to every person who posts something that doesn't clash with your opinion.

Sure, everyone could do a little more to help the world. That's kind of off-topic, though, because we're talking about what god can do to help the world. He's kind of got more ability to do so, being omnipotent and all-knowing. I know my resume can't even touch that. Can yours? Hell no.

QUOTE]


Yes but there is a method to the madness. I mean, if God took care of every little thing for you, what would be the point of living? You'd never see the value in the human life.

why do you care?

no matter what anyone is going to say in these forums you are most likely going to have the same attitude about faith. you basicly created a thread to be able to argue against the beliefs of christians. and i have to ask you why? do you find it difficult to accept some people are happy thinking there is an after life? do you find it annoying to see some people happy while you may be suffering? or are you really on a missionary trip to convert people away from believing in a god?

He is love? Somehow I don't equate genocidal maniac with love.
God is a genocidal maniac? I guess the whole creating mankind was EVIL...

As I said before, if you do not believe, why are you wasting your time? You are not going to shake my faith. I have a duty to evangilize, you do not believe in the truth. I am not going to waste anymore time pn you. AS Christ said
"If they reject you and insult you, amen I say to you, shake the sand from your feet and leave that town."
So now I leave you. Goodbye, Atheist. If you decide to hear the truth, lemme know. I will be glad to talk with you then.

I doubt god would want you to just walk away, rather than talking to them, trying to learn from them, understanding them.

The only real reason I can see you leaving is if you're afraid your faith would, in fact, be shaken.

(Though I don't totally agree with his view) Freud's view was "Religion is universal, obsession neuroses of the world and is motivated by sub-conscious guilt. In other-words our search for a divine entity (God or otherwise) is simply our way of getting ourselves a metaphorical get-out-of-jail free card. Therefore a construct of the mind is just as complex as the mind can make it.

Once again, if you know everything (as god is reputed to) you don't need to test. It's not testing, it's torture.


so hes like an S&M jesus

As I said before, if you do not believe, why are you wasting your time? You are not going to shake my faith. I have a duty to evangilize, you do not believe in the truth. I am not going to waste anymore time pn you. AS Christ said
"If they reject you and insult you, amen I say to you, shake the sand from your feet and leave that town."
So now I leave you. Goodbye, Atheist. If you decide to hear the truth, lemme know. I will be glad to talk with you then.
I like to argue. That's one way to find the truth of anything that's knowable. When you claim certain traits for god, you make him partly knowable and subject to being disproven by testing and observation. Since most Christians claim god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, when his creation doesn't square with those three traits one can argue that either the description of god is wrong or he doesn't exist. That's why I can argue on this thread.

Dude, stop clinging to every person who posts something that doesn't clash with your opinion.

Sure, everyone could do a little more to help the world. That's kind of off-topic, though, because we're talking about what god can do to help the world. He's kind of got more ability to do so, being omnipotent and all-knowing. I know my resume can't even touch that. Can yours? Hell no.




Yes but there is a method to the madness. I mean, if God took care of every little thing for you, what would be the point of living? You'd never see the value in the human life.

I'm not asking him to control every bit of my life, but what would be so bad about him just interacting with humanity on a personal level every now and then?

I doubt god would want you to just walk away, rather than talking to them, trying to learn from them, understanding them.

The only real reason I can see you leaving is if you're afraid your faith would, in fact, be shaken.
No, I am avoiding the sin of anger by stopping my rhetoric. I have shown him the truth, he said it himself that he doesn't believe, so it is not my responsibility now. Only he can come to the Father., I cannot force him to.

Slight difference. God didn't give birth to you in a world that was already created.

God not only created the world, he created the universe. He created the laws of physics, he created human nature, he created evil, he created good, he created apathy.


Now, if you had a daughter and you kept her in a room her entire life, but you also put a dog in there that kept biting her, you would have nobody but yourself to blame.

Okay I guess you have a point, but if I put my child in a room with a dog, and then trained to dog to do whatever it wanted if the dog bit the child who's fault would that be mine, or the dogs? I mean the dog can do what ever it wants, it has free will. If the dog wants to bite the child, then surly that is up to the dog?

God is a genocidal maniac? I guess the whole creating mankind was EVIL...
No the whole flood thing, killing Job's family etc. That was evil.

Wow, this is a fast-paced thread.

No the whole flood thing, killing Job's family etc. That was evil.


....and the plagues, etc.

That depends. If you allow your kids to get into the liquor cabinet and then go play in traffic you're not a loving parent.


hehe okay well what if I say dont' play with the traffic and don't raid the beer fridge, but they ignored me?

No the whole flood thing, killing Job's family etc. That was evil.
That would be the OLD Testament God. The New Testament God is LOVING and FORGIVING, as Christ taught us. God cannot be evil. He is absolute good.

....and the plagues, etc.

...And Carrot Top. *nod*

Okay I guess you have a point, but if I put my child in a room with a dog, and then trained to dog to do whatever it wanted if the dog bit the child who's fault would that be mine, or the dogs? I mean the dog can do what ever it wants, it has free will. If the dog wants to bite the child, then surly that is up to the dog?

Regardless, you put your daughter with a dog in a room she can't escape. What if she's allergic to dogs? What if the dog just snaps and has a mental breakdown like pitbulls and dobermens have been known to do? Would you just stand back and watch as the dog mauls her face off, and chalk it up to free will you can't control or do anything about?

That's not love, regardless of who's fault it is it happened.

That would be the OLD Testament God. The New Testament God is LOVING and FORGIVING, as Christ taught us. God cannot be evil. He is absolute good.

*cough* It's the same person, written by different people.

That would be the OLD Testament God. The New Testament God is LOVING and FORGIVING, as Christ taught us. God cannot be evil. He is absolute good. But how can you make such a clear distinction when both testaments are meant to be the word of God?

That would be the OLD Testament God. The New Testament God is LOVING and FORGIVING, as Christ taught us. God cannot be evil. He is absolute good.

Then explain Carrot Top! :mad:

....and the plagues, etc.
Acts of Nature, as scientist will so often tell us. He allows Earth to function on its own.

(Though I don't totally agree with his view) Freud's view was "Religion is universal, obsession neuroses of the world and is motivated by sub-conscious guilt. In other-words our search for a divine entity (God or otherwise) is simply our way of getting ourselves a metaphorical get-out-of-jail free card. Therefore a construct of the mind is just as complex as the mind can make it.


Lets just say that is true for a sec, then that makes relgion a vital thing for humanities sanity.

Then explain Carrot Top! :mad:
An Angel given Free Will who fell. Again, He respects free will, so he allowed Satan to rebel. And fail.

That would be the OLD Testament God. The New Testament God is LOVING and FORGIVING, as Christ taught us. God cannot be evil. He is absolute good.
In your eyes. I see a genocidal maniac. And Doesn't the old testamnent count? You conveniently forget that part?

Lets just say that is true for a sec, then that makes relgion a vital thing for humanities sanity. True but it doesn't make God actually exist, if only that was true!

Acts of Nature, as scientist will so often tell us. He allows Earth to function on its own.

Yeah, he creates it so it has to kill a bunch of people every now and then. It's not his fault, he just made it that way and lets it happen. Completely innocent.

In your eyes. I see a genocidal maniac. And Doesn't the old testamnent count? You conveniently forget that part?
The New Testament over-writes the old. His actions in the present are far more important then those in the past, as i said before, who are we to question Him?

Regardless, you put your daughter with a dog in a room she can't escape. What if she's allergic to dogs? What if the dog just snaps and has a mental breakdown like pitbulls and dobermens have been known to do? Would you just stand back and watch as the dog mauls her face off, and chalk it up to free will you can't control or do anything about?

That's not love, regardless of who's fault it is it happened.

Heh okay I guess I'm going to lose this one huh! Personaly I would wade in with a big stick and start beating the dog, better still I would not lock me child into a room with a dog.

Yeah, he creates it so it has to kill a bunch of people every now and then. It's not his fault, he just made it that way and lets it happen. Completely innocent.


maybe these "acts of nature" is gods way of entertaining himself.....

earth is like a reality tv show for him, and he chooses the episodes

The New Testament over-writes the old. His actions in the present are far more important then those in the past, as i said before, who are we to question Him? As far as I can remember at no point is it stated that the New Testament supersedes the Old

The New Testament over-writes the old. His actions in the present are far more important then those in the past, as i said before, who are we to question Him?

We are his creations, to which he granted free will and intelligence, and are therefore the only ones who are qualified to judge and question his actions.

I'm not asking him to control every bit of my life, but what would be so bad about him just interacting with humanity on a personal level every now and then?

But he does in a sense... One of Jesus' major points is that God is love. If God is love, then everytime we reach out to someone, we are seeing God.

You may try to point out that the Old Testament YHWH wasnt all that loving, but is that really God? How much of that is true? The Old Testament was written by a highly Legalistic society who was concerned with rules.

Besides, whats wrong with believing in a happy afterlife with God? If your wrong and there is nothing after death, then it wont really matter will it.

Heh okay I guess I'm going to lose this one huh! Personaly I would wade in with a big stick and start beating the dog, better still I would not lock me child into a room with a dog.

Course not, you love your children. You want to be with your children, not stare at them through a window in the door of a locked room.

True but it doesn't make God actually exist, if only that was true!


Perhaps I mean the whole question of wether God is there or not cannot be answered, you either belive or don't, it makes no odds to me. I only mentioned it because it intriuged me as an idea. I'm sure that constructs of the mind do a vaulable job for us, other wise why would our minds do it?

But he does in a sense... One of Jesus' major points is that God is love. If God is love, then everytime we reach out to someone, we are seeing God.

You may try to point out that the Old Testament YHWH wasnt all that loving, but is that really God? How much of that is true? The Old Testament was written by a highly Legalistic society who was concerned with rules.

Besides, whats wrong with believing in a happy afterlife with God? If your wrong and there is nothing after death, then it wont really matter will it.

It'll matter if people on earth are creating legislation and blaming others for what god has done.

And I don't see god when I reach out to someone - I see me reaching out to someone. God made it possible, yes, but he also made everything else possible. When I see a volcano erupting, I see god. When I see clouds moving across the sky, I see god. When I see a bustling city filled with life, I see god, in both his good and his evil incarnations. But when I only see one person, and I reach out to that one person, I do my best to make sure god is not involved, else it wouldn't be just me and them, and wouldn't be as pure.

The New Testament over-writes the old. His actions in the present are far more important then those in the past, as i said before, who are we to question Him?

sol giuldor while i agree with your cause, i think it is best to advise you to leave this thread. you have faith and others dont have that faith. it is hard for someone with no faith to understand the reasoning behind someone with faith. the only way for someone to gain faith is through experience, it is rare for someone to gain faith through text alone.

so in other words, these threads are useless and they are mostly created for an excuse for people to flame the christian religion.

Perhaps I mean the whole question of wether God is there or not cannot be answered, you either belive or don't, it makes no odds to me. I only mentioned it because it intriuged me as an idea. I'm sure that constructs of the mind do a vaulable job for us, other wise why would our minds do it? To ensure our sanity, why is that there aren't more true existentialists? Mainly due to the fact (In my opinion) that to be be a true existentialist that you accept that you are a essentially a walking pile of ash and that is seriously hard going.

The New Testament over-writes the old. His actions in the present are far more important then those in the past, as i said before, who are we to question Him?
Even if that were true, that doesn't excuse his actions of the OT. Why shouldn't we question him? Because he's omnipotent and all that jazz? Gimme a break..

We are his creations, to which he granted free will and intelligence, and are therefore the only ones who are qualified to judge and question his actions.

he did not grant us inteligence. he granted us free will. and gave us very simple rules to follow. but a certain female couldnt follow the simplist of rules which ended up giving us knowledge

To ensure our sanity, why is that there aren't more true existentialists? Mainly due to the fact (In my opinion) that to be be a true existentialist that you accept that you are a essentially a walking pile of ash and that is seriously hard going.

Soooo enlighten me, what exactly do existentialists belive then?

he did not grant us inteligence. he granted us free will. and gave us very simple rules to follow. but a certain female couldnt follow the simplist of rules which ended up giving us knowledge
Surely your not implying we should take what was meant as an allegorical fiction as historical documentation?

sol giuldor while i agree with your cause, i think it is best to advise you to leave this thread. you have faith and others dont have that faith. it is hard for someone with no faith to understand the reasoning behind someone with faith. the only way for someone to gain faith is through experience, it is rare for someone to gain faith through text alone.

so in other words, these threads are useless and they are mostly created for an excuse for people to flame the christian religion.

Untrue. We're using what god has given us - mind, intelligence, thought - we're using it in a way I'm sure would make him proud. We have to truly be intelligent to understand the concept of questioning god, as opposed to just accepting him and never questioning. There's a reason he gave us the curiousity and ability, and I think it to be slightly offensive to his gifts if we never used them, much less while we said it was his wish to do so.

Spoken like a true agnostic. For 1 thing, God the Father and Allah ARE NOT THE SAME BEING! God preaches love and truth, Allah preaches death and destruction. Another thing, WORKS ALONE CANNOT SAVE YOU! If that 1 family member does not belive, then he/she is doomed.

Spoken like a true bigot.

Agnostics believe that it´s impossible to know whether there is a god or not. I believe that it´s impossible NOT to know there is a God. His/Her work surrounds us.

Christianity preaches love and truth?.

Spanish Inquisition.
Crusades.
Persecution of the Jews.
The burning of Catholics at the stake by protestants
The KKK persecution of Blacks in the name of religion and white supremecy.
Serbian ethnic cleansing of the Bosnians
All acts carrried out in the name of the Christian God.

Christianity doesn´t have the lily white hands you seem to think it has. It´s caused as much suffering if not more than Islam. Have you ever read the Koran or the Talmud? Have you been to an Islamic country, or have you spent your life surrounded by other red neck bigots? An atrocity carried out in the name of God is an atrocity. Be it Christian murdering Muslim, Jew murdering Muslim or indeed Muslim murdering Jew or Christian. All are hateful acts.

I´ll say it again in case you missed it. God created the precursers for life. Surely he therefore loves ALL mankind. We all stem from his original design. We just differ in our interpretation of his will.

Islam is a tolerant religion, more so than Christianity. It however suffers from the same problems as Christianity. It´s run by all to fallible human beings, with thier own agenda. To blame all Muslims for the actions of a few is to say that the whole of Christianity is to blame for the KKK´s actions in persecuting Blacks.

I carried a rifle for 24 years. I´ve seen the results of Christian, Muslim and Jewish bigotry up close and personal on more than one occasion.

Finally.

"WORKS ALONE CANNOT SAVE YOU! If that 1 family member does not belive, then he/she is doomed"

Is that the act of a loving God? Or is that the bias of a church seeking to enforce it´s own supremecy?. Organised religions all have the same goal, to convince people that they and only they can speak for God.

No, I am avoiding the sin of anger by stopping my rhetoric. I have shown him the truth, he said it himself that he doesn't believe, so it is not my responsibility now. Only he can come to the Father., I cannot force him to.

God would want you to face your sin and understand it, rather than bottle it up. Avoiding situations that would cause you to sin is not the same as being pure enough to not have sin in the first place.

hehe okay well what if I say dont' play with the traffic and don't raid the beer fridge, but they ignored me?
God knows all and sees all, so you'd be telling your kids not to do it then watching them get drunk and hit by a truck without intervening.

Soooo enlighten me, what exactly do existentialists belive then?
The best example I can give you is a writer called Albert Camus, he wrote a book called the Outsider, it is essentially the core elements of existentialism. (To my understanding)It basically it reasserts the view that if God exists then that's his problem, they take the view that we have one life that is to satisfied and enjoyed most through earthly pleasures.

Soooo enlighten me, what exactly do existentialists belive then?
The best example I can give you is a writer called Albert Camus, he wrote a book called the Outsider, it is essentially the core elements of existentialism. (To my understanding)It basically it reasserts the view that if God exists then that's his problem, they take the view that we have one life that is to satisfied and enjoyed most through earthly pleasures.

Soooo enlighten me, what exactly do existentialists belive then?
The best example I can give you is a writer called Albert Camus, he wrote a book called the Outsider, it is essentially the core elements of existentialism. (To my understanding)It basically it reasserts the view that if God exists then that's his problem, they take the view that we have one life that is to satisfied and enjoyed most through earthly pleasures.

Organised religions all have the same goal, to convince people that they and only they can speak for God.

Not quite true, my faith Sikhi says it don't really mater how you get to God, as long as you try.

Soooo enlighten me, what exactly do existentialists belive then?
The best example I can give you is a writer called Albert Camus, he wrote a book called the Outsider, it is essentially the core elements of existentialism. (To my understanding)It basically it reasserts the view that if God exists then that's his problem, they take the view that we have one life that is to satisfied and enjoyed most through earthly pleasures.

Surely your not implying we should take what was meant as an allegorical fiction as historical documentation?

once again this thread is questioning faith and more specificly the christian god. and witht eh christain god there is a certain book called the "bible" perhaps you have heard of it. the bible starts with a chapter that explains the creation of the world.

i beleive if you are going to have a thread questioning god's motives (it isnt really questioning if there is a god) then you also have to accept the book that helps us even get a glimpse into understanding god. (although it is completely impossible to understand god)

free will pah

if god gave us free will and yet knows what choice we will make, then that is no free will at all. thats touching on 1984 perhaps even an enslaved will

once again this thread is questioning faith and more specificly the christian god. and witht eh christain god there is a certain book called the "bible" perhaps you have heard of it. the bible starts with a chapter that explains the creation of the world.

i beleive if you are going to have a thread questioning god's motives (it isnt really questioning if there is a god) then you also have to accept the book that helps us even get a glimpse into understanding god. (although it is completely impossible to understand god)
Oh I've heard of it my father is a Roman Catholic priest! But the Bible was written by MAN for MAN even if you accept it was divinely inspired.

Not quite true, my faith Sikhi says it don't really mater how you get to God, as long as you try.

Sounds like a decent and respectable faith.

Not quite true, my faith Sikhi says it don't really mater how you get to God, as long as you try.

I´ll apologise for my statement. It was a bit too sweeping. I meant it to only include the three religions I was talking about.

God knows all and sees all, so you'd be telling your kids not to do it then watching them get drunk and hit by a truck without intervening.


No you are confussing me with God, I'd probly be watchin' the footie and drinking beer, and be quite oblivious to the little bastards misdeeds.

He's just playing with your brainzzzz thats all.

The best example I can give you is a writer called Albert Camus, he wrote a book called the Outsider, it is essentially the core elements of existentialism. (To my understanding)It basically it reasserts the view that if God exists then that's his problem, they take the view that we have one life that is to satisfied and enjoyed most through earthly pleasures.


Ahhhhh I see that sounds almost like Laveyian Satanism, which is basicly wanking for the ego!

once again this thread is questioning faith and more specificly the christian god. and witht eh christain god there is a certain book called the "bible" perhaps you have heard of it. the bible starts with a chapter that explains the creation of the world.

i beleive if you are going to have a thread questioning god's motives (it isnt really questioning if there is a god) then you also have to accept the book that helps us even get a glimpse into understanding god. (although it is completely impossible to understand god)

The book itself is hooey. Maybe if you were the one that originally heard the message and were possessed by the holy spirit to write part of it, you would be able to take it literally and know exactly how to read it.

But you aren't, so you can't. It's been edited many times over, chopped up, garbled, translated, and mishmashed.

The only thing you can truly trust is the message of Jesus.

I´ll apologise for my statement. It was a bit too sweeping. I meant it to only include the three religions I was talking about.

Excepted, and to the post above it is.:p

Ahhhhh I see that sounds almost like Laveyian Satanism, which is basicly wanking for the ego!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not quite certain I quite agree with you're assertion but OK.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not quite certain I quite agree with you're assertion but OK.


Heh sorry which part do you not agree with?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not quite certain I quite agree with you're assertion but OK.

Calm down, Yeller.

Most satanic offshoots tend to completely ignore Satan himself and are rather a humanistic religion that focuses on self and making yourself feel good and essentially being self-centered.

The only thing you can truly trust is the message of Jesus.
Which has also been translated through at least two languages and chopped and changed many more times!

Calm down, Yeller.

Most satanic offshoots tend to completely ignore Satan himself and are rather a humanistic religion that focuses on self and making yourself feel good and essentially being self-centered.
My apologies, I misinterpreted your wording

Which has also been translated through at least two languages and chopped and changed many more times!

True, but all who study the bible and the history of the christian faith can agree: The one thing that's easiest to understand and hasn't been fucked with was that Jesus was a man of peace and love. That basic message still sticks, regardless.

True, but all who study the bible and the history of the christian faith can agree: The one thing that's easiest to understand and hasn't been fucked with was that Jesus was a man of peace and love. That basic message still sticks, regardless.
Granted but that's not what is espoused through Christianity, the treaties and conventions of Niceane put paid to that!

Calm down, Yeller.

Most satanic offshoots tend to completely ignore Satan himself and are rather a humanistic religion that focuses on self and making yourself feel good and essentially being self-centered.


In fact Satanism is not a religion at all but a movement, they don't even belive in God let alone Satan. I secretly thing they call themselves Satanist just to piss off Christians, heh get one of the lil' fuckers to admit it though hahah

Granted but that's not what is espoused through Christianity, the treaties and conventions of Niceane put paid to that!

Of course not. Sadly, christianity has for the most part forsaken its namesake. It has left the message of Jesus for the dogma of the bible and the church.

Of course not. Sadly, christianity has for the most part forsaken its namesake. It has left the message of Jesus for the dogma of the bible and the church. That's my view too!

Of course not. Sadly, christianity has for the most part forsaken its namesake. It has left the message of Jesus for the dogma of the bible and the church.


Agreed.

Of course not. Sadly, christianity has for the most part forsaken its namesake. It has left the message of Jesus for the dogma of the bible and the church.

Pretty much what I was trying to say in my slightly long winded and far more pompous way.

I'm sorry, but I can't accept that "if you play by the rules life will be perfect in the afterworld" nonsense - it abdicates our responsibility to care for the suffering of man on earth and exonerates the failing of a God made world in the here and now. I've seen babys dieing in Southern African and East Africa, I've seen abject poverty on the streets on Mumbai and Calcutta, Johanesburgh and Bulawayo. The most religious people i've ever met are either the richest who think their status is God given or the poorest who have nothing left to hold on to for support. While most I know in the middle range from rampant atheist to begrudging beleiver. I can't beleive in a God that allows such suffering and can still claim to be both all loving and all powerful. Either he is too weak to change things or doesn't give a monkey's.

Arn't all the things you describe consequences of man's own actions ? Like everyone before you stated, its all about free will (this is our greatest gift, and greatest curse). Think of it from the perspective of a parent, you must allow your children to feel pain in order for them to grow... they must, at some point, face the consequences of their own actions. Is it Gods job to pick up after us, when we make a mess ? That sounds like a childs rational, and seemingly shifting the blame away from where it belongs.. on us.

Arn't all the things you describe consequences of man's own actions ? Like everyone before you stated, its all about free will (this is our greatest gift, and greatest curse). Think of it from the perspective of a parent, you must allow your children to feel pain in order for them to grow... they must, at some point, face the consequences of their own actions. Is it Gods job to pick up after us, when we make a mess ? That sounds like a childs rational, and seemingly shifting the blame away from where it belongs.. on us.
I think the issue here isn't the existence of evil, it's the fact that it would appear to be grossly disproportional.

If there is so much suffering in the world
?

You're are in the wrong cosmos my friend !
Here all is based on god will (ther all it free will, lol).
He tried it with his son, just to show us how much of an ass* he's.
Take it or leave it.
Too many WANTS to believe that god is OK...
Fine with me...

No my gun is not for sale.



The High Priest
- God Adviser -

Arn't all the things you describe consequences of man's own actions ? Like everyone before you stated, its all about free will (this is our greatest gift, and greatest curse). Think of it from the perspective of a parent, you must allow your children to feel pain in order for them to grow... they must, at some point, face the consequences of their own actions. Is it Gods job to pick up after us, when we make a mess ? That sounds like a childs rational, and seemingly shifting the blame away from where it belongs.. on us.

God's not a parent, he's a god. You can't really have a good analogy for the relationship between god and humanity, because nothing else in the world created -everything-, so it couldn't be analogized to god.

But, for the sake of argument, let's do it anyway. Say you're a parent, and you've got six billion children, and you let them kill themselves and die and be tortured and etc etc. all because they forgot about you. The story would be slightly different if you had SIX children, because then you would care more, because you've only got six! "Holy shit, one of my kids died! I'm gonna cry." "Holy shit, my kids are fighting eachother! I better stop them before someone gets hurt!" Y'know, fatherly things. But since you have six billion, you have way too many to give a shit about. Maybe you shouldn't have made six billion babies, but you did, and now you don't really care about any of them.

That's why the analogy doesn't work, because god isn't a parent.

they take the view that we have one life that is to satisfied and enjoyed most through earthly pleasures.

Hold yer horses!

Camus is defining existentialist belief now? Wow! What happened to that philosophy?!

Existentialism is better defined by its roots, such as Nietzsche (sp?), Kierkegaard, Heidegger etc...

Not to mention there are plenty of modern existentialists, such as Paul Tillich, or Martin Buber.

Camus is hardly an authority.

Existential philosophy can go all over the place, but it is essentially individualistic, but not always in the sense of Camus' philosophy.

For instance, we can look at Kierkegaard or Tillich who view human volition, individuality and free will as the bridging gap to a true religion (in the case of Kierkegaard, that being Christianity).

The only binding point between varied existential views would be the independence and isolation of the human experience in an uncaring world, and the positive way to respond to that: to exist, to affirm yourself and your individuality, whether that be in religion (Kierkegaard, Tillich), because it's the only thing you can do (Sartre), to become a man beyond morality (Nietszche), or to make this life satisfying (Camus).

It gets pretty complex and varied, but Camus is very far from defining even mainstream existentialism. I'd look at Sartre for atheistic existentialism (along with some Nietszche) and Kierkegaard for religious existentialism.

Hold yer horses!

Camus is defining existentialist belief now? Wow! What happened to that philosophy?!

Existentialism is better defined by its roots, such as Nietzsche (sp?), Kierkegaard, Heidegger etc...

Not to mention there are plenty of modern existentialists, such as Paul Tillich, or Martin Buber.

Camus is hardly an authority.

Existential philosophy can go all over the place, but it is essentially individualistic, but not always in the sense of Camus' philosophy.

For instance, we can look at Kierkegaard or Tillich who view human volition, individuality and free will as the bridging gap to a true religion (in the case of Kierkegaard, that being Christianity).

The only binding point between varied existential views would be the independence and isolation of the human experience in an uncaring world, and the positive way to respond to that: to exist, to affirm yourself and your individuality, whether that be in religion (Kierkegaard, Tillich), because it's the only thing you can do (Sartre), to become a man beyond morality (Nietszche), or to make this life satisfying (Camus).

It gets pretty complex and varied, but Camus is very far from defining even mainstream existentialism. I'd look at Sartre for atheistic existentialism (along with some Nietszche) and Kierkegaard for religion existentialism. Thank you for this, you've explained it alot better than I did, I have to admit my explanation is abit lame but having only just touched on the subject... PS I'll add those titles to my 'must read' list!

Thank you for this, you've explained it alot better than I did, I have to admit my explanation is abit lame but having only just touched on the subject... PS I'll add those book titles to my 'must read' list!

Any time! I finally got a chance to take a course on it, which I must admit clarified a lot of what I'd read before I took it, so now it's all fresh in my mind and waiting to get out.

It's a tough philosophy to explain, it all seems to connect under the same label but a lot of the connections are hard to pinpoint. You might enjoy The Plague by Albert Camus as well, it has a lot of depth, and is of course also well written.

(I hope I didn't come off as dissing Camus just now, I admire the man as a writer a lot, I just wanted to sort of push the spotlight back to all of the famous existentialists, especially those who are the roots of the philosophy)

God's not a parent, he's a god. You can't really have a good analogy for the relationship between god and humanity, because nothing else in the world created -everything-, so it couldn't be analogized to god.

But, for the sake of argument, let's do it anyway. Say you're a parent, and you've got six billion children, and you let them kill themselves and die and be tortured and etc etc. all because they forgot about you. The story would be slightly different if you had SIX children, because then you would care more, because you've only got six! "Holy shit, one of my kids died! I'm gonna cry." "Holy shit, my kids are fighting eachother! I better stop them before someone gets hurt!" Y'know, fatherly things. But since you have six billion, you have way too many to give a shit about. Maybe you shouldn't have made six billion babies, but you did, and now you don't really care about any of them.

That's why the analogy doesn't work, because god isn't a parent.

You clearly reveal a bias in your logic which distorts your argument grossly. In fact throughout the christian religion and the bible itself, that analogy is made, god being the father and we his children. He does not fail to intervene because we have forgoten him, but because we are being taught the consequences of our actions. As well you must remember this life in terms of religion is just an interlude to a great one afterwards. You seem to presume as though death is the end all.. when it is rather just a small transition to greater things. Death is only painful and disheartening for those still alive, those who have died do not continue to suffer, rather have moved past this stage in their development [if we see our humanity as truely a childlike stage]

, I just wanted to sort of push the spotlight back to all of the famous existentialists, especially those who are the roots of the philosophy)
Oh absolutely! I have to admit my professeur hasn't really pushed very deep into the topic but it appears (to me) to be as varied and as dynamic as any other belief of this nature

I'm not participating in this conversation -- just reading and enjoying it -- because I'm not a monotheist, so the OP question doesn't mean anything to me, but I felt I had to comment on a couple of posts.

First:

Spoken like a true agnostic. For 1 thing, God the Father and Allah ARE NOT THE SAME BEING! God preaches love and truth, Allah preaches death and destruction. Another thing, WORKS ALONE CANNOT SAVE YOU! If that 1 family member does not belive, then he/she is doomed.
Yeah, um, blatant bigotry does not advance your cause. It merely makes you look like someone no one wants to be friends with, and to the extent you may be representing your religion, it doesn't help that, either. The message becomes, "Hey, join us and you can get to say hateful, bitchy things about other people and make lots of enemies, too!" I'm guessing that is not the actual message your religion wants to send, and it's not a message that would get me to think of joining up. You might want to keep that in mind.

Second:

sol giuldor while i agree with your cause, i think it is best to advise you to leave this thread. you have faith and others dont have that faith. it is hard for someone with no faith to understand the reasoning behind someone with faith. the only way for someone to gain faith is through experience, it is rare for someone to gain faith through text alone.

so in other words, these threads are useless and they are mostly created for an excuse for people to flame the christian religion.
On the contrary. Isn't the OP question a standard of monotheist theological studies? Why doesn't god (or the gods) protect people from evil/misfortune? Why do bad things happen to us? These are natural, ordinary questions, often raised by new converts or prospective converts. They are some of the foundational questions of all religions. Those who wish to teach or promote monotheist religions need to think about these questions and formulate some answers to them if they want to keep people from losing faith in the religion (if not in the god itself).

So this is in no way a flame thread, but one shouldn't be surprised if people become hostile when confronted with bigotry such as in the earlier quoted post.

I'll go back to being a spectator now. Thanks.

Death is only painful and disheartening for those still alive, those who have died do not continue to suffer, rather have moved past this stage in their development [if we see our humanity as truely a childlike stage][/QUOTE]
I hate to put a spanner in the works but unless you're going to make an amazing announcement as to your current status, you too are on this side of the mortal coil!

Answer to thread title: Satan.

Answer to thread title: Satan.
Not answer enough to overcome the problem of God's combined benevolence, omnipotence and omniscience.

Death is only painful and disheartening for those still alive, those who have died do not continue to suffer, rather have moved past this stage in their development [if we see our humanity as truely a childlike stage]
I hate to put a spanner in the works but unless you're going to make an amazing announcement as to your current status, you too are on this side of the mortal coil!

yet this is the perspective we may assume given the religious context. Our lives are to be but brief interludes in an otherwise eternal existance.

In fact the analogy of father (god) and children (humanity) could not be more appropriate, given that parents are like gods to their children, those who have provided life, nurishment, love...etc. And while we (children) look at our hardships as things of massive importance, that analogy can be extended to our children, who would see a scraped knee, a lost bear, a stole lolipop as similarly life impeding events. Its all about the perspective you take when looking at the situation.

You clearly reveal a bias in your logic which distorts your argument grossly. In fact throughout the christian religion and the bible itself, that analogy is made, god being the father and we his children. He does not fail to intervene because we have forgoten him, but because we are being taught the consequences of our actions. As well you must remember this life in terms of religion is just an interlude to a great one afterwards. You seem to presume as though death is the end all.. when it is rather just a small transition to greater things. Death is only painful and disheartening for those still alive, those who have died do not continue to suffer, rather have moved past this stage in their development [if we see our humanity as truely a childlike stage]

It's not really "being taught the consequences", when the consequences are eternal damnation in the fires of hell. It's just... letting people go to hell. Sending them to hell, really. If they haven't been taught yet then why are they being punished like someone who has?

The whole "eternal hell" thing always pissed me off. I don't think anyone deserves ETERNAL hell - Hitler only deserves an eon or so, but after that I think he'd have repented and understood how bad he was doing. Certainly someone who simply didn't understand and therefore didn't belive in god doesn't deserve as harsh a punishment as Hitler himself, correct?

I think there is no hell, but to pass on to heaven you must understand yourself and gain the correct moral fiber to enter heaven, maybe through tests given in purgatory. Not like, SAT tests, like, virtual reality kind of total immersion, seeing how he reacts to certain situations and until he comes out a better person he doesn't come out at all, type of thing.

God gave us free will and now Satan is exploiting that free will, bad things happen, God gets angry, punishes us more bad things happen it's a big circle.

God gave us free will and now Satan is exploiting that free will, bad things happen, God gets angry, punishes us more bad things happen it's a big circle.

That's just about the stupidest thing I've seen all day. :p

God doesn't punish us for what Satan does.

That's just about the stupidest thing I've seen all day. :p

God doesn't punish us for what Satan does.
I most certainly agree! The only place I can think of where Satan is actually cited as a direct and constant influence that attempts to actually direct our actions is Milton's Paradise Lost!

God gave us free will and now Satan is exploiting that free will, bad things happen, God gets angry, punishes us more bad things happen it's a big circle.

It has nothing to do with gods anger... we are taught what is right and wrong throughout our life time, even if ur arn't getting that from a bible your getting it from somewhere. Life is about the choices we make, and the consequences there after... also... being a catholic, but as i Belive most other religions accept as well... there is always time for repentance. Even if it is there on your death bed, so long as you are truely repentant for the sins you have commited, you are forgiven... This is suppose to be Gods eternal mercy. Hell is only for those truely not repentant of their sins... and only for those truely hanous sins... somehow i highly doubt you'll be going to hell cause once you took the Lords name in vain and weren't repentant >.>

It's not really "being taught the consequences", when the consequences are eternal damnation in the fires of hell. It's just... letting people go to hell. Sending them to hell, really. If they haven't been taught yet then why are they being punished like someone who has?

The whole "eternal hell" thing always pissed me off. I don't think anyone deserves ETERNAL hell - Hitler only deserves an eon or so, but after that I think he'd have repented and understood how bad he was doing. Certainly someone who simply didn't understand and therefore didn't belive in god doesn't deserve as harsh a punishment as Hitler himself, correct?

I think there is no hell, but to pass on to heaven you must understand yourself and gain the correct moral fiber to enter heaven, maybe through tests given in purgatory. Not like, SAT tests, like, virtual reality kind of total immersion, seeing how he reacts to certain situations and until he comes out a better person he doesn't come out at all, type of thing.




I learned in a religious class that hell exists because God loves us...

WHY you may ask?

Because true love must leave open the possiblity of your love not being returned. If God loves us truly, he can't force us to love him back.

Hell has been too often described as a place of torment. According to theology, Hell is a state of being with out God. If God loves us, and we dont love God, if we dont want God in our life, then we go to Hell, where there is no God.

I learned in a religious class that hell exists because God loves us...

WHY you may ask?

Because true love must leave open the possiblity of your love not being returned. If God loves us truly, he can't force us to love him back.

Hell has been too often described as a place of torment. According to theology, Hell is a state of being with out God. If God loves us, and we dont love God, if we dont want God in our life, then we go to Hell, where there is no God.
So what you're saying is that essentially (if I understand you correctly) is that Hell is not a punishment in the literal sense but rather a void in the abscence of God?

So what you're saying is that essentially (if I understand you correctly) is that Hell is not a punishment in the literal sense but rather a void in the abscence of God?


Yeah..pretty much..it seems like kind of a self-inflicted exile from all things, damned to be a part from God.

Personally I'm more of an angnostic, but ive attended Catholic Schools since i was 5

I'm sorry, but I can't accept that "if you play by the rules life will be perfect in the afterworld" nonsense - it abdicates our responsibility to care for the suffering of man on earth and exonerates the failing of a God made world in the here and now. I've seen babys dieing in Southern African and East Africa, I've seen abject poverty on the streets on Mumbai and Calcutta, Johanesburgh and Bulawayo. The most religious people i've ever met are either the richest who think their status is God given or the poorest who have nothing left to hold on to for support. While most I know in the middle range from rampant atheist to begrudging beleiver. I can't beleive in a God that allows such suffering and can still claim to be both all loving and all powerful. Either he is too weak to change things or doesn't give a monkey's.
take it up with god then.

you arent the first person to notice that life on earth sucks. its pretty obvious that it has sucked since the dawn of time.

since "the rules" includes helping the sick, the poor, etc. i dont see that it abdicates anything, you are COMMANDED to do it.

the part where god surely DOES allow rampant suffering, has indeed set up a world where suffering is unavoidable shows that you are right, he doesnt care about suffering in this life. the "all loving" part comes where he will forgive you anything you ask him to forgive and will allow you to spend eternity in heaven.

like i said. if you dont like it, take it up with god.

Yeah..pretty much..it seems like kind of a self-inflicted exile from all things, damned to be a part from God.

Personally I'm more of an angnostic, but ive attended Catholic Schools since i was 5

You can be apart from god without being in "a lake of fire". There's lots of things hell is described as - simply "apart from god" is not one of them.

Originally I really wanted to be involved in this conversation, made a few posts on my personaly opinions and so forth...
But unfortunately this question seems to be creating a few difficulties.

So let's analyse it from the begining.

IF God is omnipotent and all-loving, how can evil happen?
So God/Gods must first exist, and some people may not agree on that.
If He does, he must also then be all-powerful, all-loving, all-perfect.
If He was a perfect being, why would he feel the desire to create something?
Why would He feel incomplete without external expression. All art is made due to a quest for betterment, a need to express emotions or intense imagination.

Of these, the only one that would make sense is Imagination. "Imagination is more important than knowledge". So let's say it was imagination that created the laws of physics and so forth, laws that existed before we discovered them, but we've made analogs for within the bounds of mathematics and algebra, calculus, etc. So this perfect God created everything not because He wanted to (wants suggest imperfection), not because he needed to express himself (because He is complete) but because of Imagination, that all-pervading force (more powerful than God?) that brought him to create.

That would make two big implications. That we can come close to God through application of our imagination, that we can use our imagination to better the world and ourselves.

Secondly, that God wants us to do this, and so that 'evil' exists not because it was a mistake. That Satan and God, though they battle, are both necessary not to 'test' us, but to 'temper' us, like steel in a fire. Steel in a fire is not being punished. It is being purified. Earth is the hell in which we exist to be purified for Heaven, and if we are too soft, and melt in the fires, we fall into the bottom and get drained out into hell, where we are made fit to reenter the world (if you beleive in reincarnation) or where we are kept forever because it better suits our learning style.

And this ironically ties into Intelligence, which I decided not to talk too much about before because, as I may have mentioned, it is hard to decide what true intelligence is. Most simians have a fight/flight, pleasure/pain, carrot/stick and eat/drink/reproduce mentality. All of these are automatic learned functions that happen in response to changes in the outside world or lacks of the creature at hand. If the creature suddenly needs food, it eats.

Most humans also have this, and I would say that true intelligence is not acheived until you have reached the fourth step of Maslow's Heirarchy (second from the top) need for self esteem.

After taking care of food, sex, etc on the first step, security, comfort and peace on the second, and belonging, love on the third, you have to maintain those long enough to want to raise your opinion of yourself and do something, something that is unique and requires IMAGINATION (powerful force remember) combined with knowledge and that is intelligence.

In the end, not only has there been loads of people talking about how to make your life better, but there's an outlined method, prophets since time and memorial, and plenty of information. God loves you, he keeps giving you information, but Jesus, do something for yourself too.

It's like when you're working with a person who has a criminal record, and wants to get a pardon, but can't get it for two years and he keeps smoking pot, dealing it, and giving alcohol to minors. How do you help a fuck that won't help himself? Oh, and BTW, that's one of my three roommates, if you're wondering.

Yeah..pretty much..it seems like kind of a self-inflicted exile from all things, damned to be a part from God.

Personally I'm more of an angnostic, but ive attended Catholic Schools since i was 5

an interesting take on what hell might be like... having grown up in a pretty catholic family and now working for the church, I myself have never heard it put like that but.. again interesting... is there biblical text which put it in that same fashion ?

Free will is the cause of all our problems, not God. He respects are free will so much, that even if we choose to ruin ourselves, He shall not intervene. WE, through our sins and lack of faith, have caused the current state of the world, not the Father.
free will is the cause of SOME of our problems

free will doesnt cause old age

free will doesnt cause cancer

free will doesnt cause tsunamis

even if everyone behaved splendidly, life would still be full of suffering.

It has nothing to do with gods anger... we are taught what is right and wrong throughout our life time, even if ur arn't getting that from a bible your getting it from somewhere. Life is about the choices we make, and the consequences there after... also... being a catholic, but as i Belive most other religions accept as well... there is always time for repentance. Even if it is there on your death bed, so long as you are truely repentant for the sins you have commited, you are forgiven... This is suppose to be Gods eternal mercy. Hell is only for those truely not repentant of their sins... and only for those truely hanous sins... somehow i highly doubt you'll be going to hell cause once you took the Lords name in vain and weren't repentant >.>

God punishes us for evil (caused by Satan) on Earth, for example, when he destroyed everything apart from the people/creatures on Noah's Ark and when he destroyed Sodom.

You can be apart from god without being in "a lake of fire". There's lots of things hell is described as - simply "apart from god" is not one of them.


But how many people have actually BEEN to hell? The only human authority on the subject (if you're a believer) would be Jesus, who describes "wailing and gnashig of teeth". The fire and pain came from the Middle Ages, threatening people with phyiscal pain...Jesus never says anything about fire..

But Catholic theology teaches that Heaven and Hell are not physical places, they are states of being. I see heaven as more of a moksha, when the Hindu's are released from the circle of life and rejoin Brahman, the source of all things..

an interesting take on what hell might be like... having grown up in a pretty catholic family and now working for the church, I myself have never heard it put like that but.. again interesting... is there biblical text which put it in that same fashion ?

Not that i know of, its something i learned in a Morality class

God punishes us for evil (caused by Satan) on Earth, for example, when he destroyed everything apart from the people/creatures on Noah's Ark and when he destroyed Sodom.

ya, ill give you Noah's Ark... though i always did call into question stories where God is exacting some kind of rage on ppl [and im sure some theologian could give u a pretty explaination for that]. Still, Satan only may provide temptation, it remains mans choice whether to give in or not... in the end it is our own free will which dictates our fate.

I belive in that story, the city which was destroyed in the flood was seen as beyond redemption, as they continued to reject god even as they were given one final chance at salvation.

Just imagine if God did intervene in the world. Kinda circumvents free will, don't it?

God punishes us for evil (caused by Satan) on Earth, for example, when he destroyed everything apart from the people/creatures on Noah's Ark and when he destroyed Sodom.
So God's punishing us for something someone else did?

Now I remember why I Rejected Christianity

If god dose exist why the hell would he care about this planet. He's got a whole Universe to manage.

Someone has been taking a University course in "Evil", havn't they?

Well, yes, my degrees are in Political Science and Criminology, so yes I suppose degrees in evil.....

You can be apart from god without being in "a lake of fire". There's lots of things hell is described as - simply "apart from god" is not one of them.


Man where did you read that, he is right you know hell is defined as being apart from God. The whole lake of fire and all that stuff come much later.

Idk but I can say this with all the crazy people in the world ayou know he is getting a good laugh. lol think about it how can you know everything and not be able to laugh about it.

Well, yes, my degrees are in Political Science and Criminology, so yes I suppose degrees in evil.....

Good one Rhoderick. Best Comeback line I've seen in awhile.

Good one Rhoderick. Best Comeback line I've seen in awhile.
Thank you.

Thank you.

You are most welcome *bows*

What i suppose I'm asking really is not about the nature of God, but the disjuncture in the two fundemantal traits ascribed to him/her/it by Christians: all loving and all powerful, when seen through the prism of seemingly perpetual human suffering at the hands of nature and each other.

I'm writing this to get a rational debate here. Personally I have serious reservations about Christianity's interpretation of God.

If there is so much suffering in the world, which is self evidant, how can the devine being be, as most Christian's would have us beleive, be both all loving and all powerful. Even accepting that he gave us free will to be what ever kind of being we may want to be and that he may have created mechanisms for ensuring we are not imortal does not account to crop failures, horrendous deseases, floods, volcanos, miscarriages etc.

I have come round to thinking of God as the "Scientists God", an entity that like to play with space and time, pyroclastics and creating the minutia of spiecies, but he doesn't give a flying toss about emotions and relationship or the quality if life of his "lab rats"

DEBATE:

Well, I can understand where you are coming from...and I can give you the hindu (Vaishnava actually) interpretation of this issue...

We are spirit souls and not the body that we currently occupy and mis-identify with due to the conditioning in material existence. Our original position is in the spiritual..in an eternal loving relationship wth god and when our egos became such that we thought that we wanted to be God ourselves, he made the material world so that we can pretend that we are gods (in the sense that we do not need him for our happiness..)..but the happiness in the material world is temporal and the soul in its ignorance does not recognisse this and mis-identifies its body as its identity and hence material sufferings (which are a result of the karma of the soul) cannot be attributed as God's cruelty.