NationStates Jolt Archive

I guess this applies to most european citizens and the question is very simple,

Should Turkey be allowed into European Community ?

No, for two main reasons:

1) Its human rights record.
2) It's not in Europe. Not really.

Yes, for three reasons:

1) She has the largest army in Europe and it is preferable to have her in than out
2) She is the largest, stable potential source of labour for the aging populations of of Europe
3) We have already promised her and by stoping turkey from joining we risk creating a powerful enemy on our boarders.

Yes, for three reasons:

1) She has the largest army in Europe and it is preferable to have her in than out
2) She is the largest, stable potential source of labour for the aging populations of of Europe
3) We have already promised her and by stoping turkey from joining we risk creating a powerful enemy on our boarders.

Also could be useful for bridging the gap between a largely Christian Europe and a largely Muslim Middle East.


Though yeah, their human rights record...

Mix the two above. So, No, not yet, but yes, in the future.

They're not ready and nor are we.

Yes, for three reasons:

1) She has the largest army in Europe and it is preferable to have her in than out
2) She is the largest, stable potential source of labour for the aging populations of of Europe
3) We have already promised her and by stoping turkey from joining we risk creating a powerful enemy on our boarders.
I'll see you and raise:

3) The EU has already expanded too far and is in genuine and serious danger of collapse if it continues to grasp further than its reach.
4) It would provide an easy gateway from unstable Middle Eastern countries into Western Europe.

Also could be useful for bridging the gap between a largely Christian Europe and a largely Muslim Middle East.


Though yeah, their human rights record...

They are just not as good at hiding their abuses as Britian or France and not as guilt ridden as Germany and Spain or tame as the rest of Europe

I guess this applies to most european citizens and the question is very simple,

Should Turkey be allowed into European Community ?

If the bird flu commotion turns out to be as uneventful as it seems it will be, I say sure, import as much turkey as you like. Seems reasonable.

If the bird flu commotion turns out to be as uneventful as it seems it will be, I say sure, import as much turkey as you like. Seems reasonable.

I don't know, mr. Turkey has been known to go on clucking sprees. Aren't we at risk if we let him in?

And I'm not even going to touch mrs. Turkey...

Yes, for three reasons:

1) She has the largest army in Europe and it is preferable to have her in than out
2) She is the largest, stable potential source of labour for the aging populations of of Europe
3) We have already promised her and by stoping turkey from joining we risk creating a powerful enemy on our boarders.


1) I dont think she has the largest army in Europe, perhaps you may want to look at the size and quality of the French army

2) You also may want to look at the new and upcoming former soviet republic who are to be entering into the Europena Union, considering that they are much closer to a potential market ( Russia = 142,893,540 population , China = 1,313,973,713 population ) thats a huge market by anyones standards.
3) We have promised Turkey introduction providing she agrees to all rules and regulation wich a bound and non-negotiable.

Deal with some problems they have, and yeah certainly. Why not? Most of the arguments I have heard from those against it (when you get past the "Eu shouldnt expand" or whatever other reasons etc) usually boil down to

1) They look different, smell and act different. Rasicism is alive and well throughout Europe.

2) The aren't Christian. So what? I am not either. Usually actually just an excuse to hide the above.

3) Humans rights abuses. Yeah... but the conditions are that they stop those before they come in... so lettying them in means they have stopped doing that. In fact, by saying we will let them in, we are encrouaging them to clean their act up.

4) Lead to letting in other Middle Eastern countries. So what? They will have to meet the same standards, so if we expand, we will be encouraging democracy, political and social freedom etc through out the region. Isnt that better than trying to bomb those things into them?

Five Reasons:
1) Prisons.
2) Kurdistan.
3) Women's Rights.
4) The EU Agricultural Policy.
5) Armenian Genocide.

As for the size of their military...who gives a shit? Turkey's already in NATO (And yes, Turkey's army is the largets of the "European" nations, followed by the Ukraine, Germany, France, Italy and the UK - in that order).

I'll see you and raise:

3) The EU has already expanded too far and is in genuine and serious danger of collapse if it continues to grasp further than its reach.
4) It would provide an easy gateway from unstable Middle Eastern countries into Western Europe.

No, Europe has not expanded too far (although there is a viable debate to be made about how useful it is for europe to be held back by keeping the ungrateful british). It should have probably grown slower and have much deeper links than exist at the moment, but ultimately the European union should encompase all of Europe, including Russia, Turkey and Albania, possibly Greenland and Iceland and parts of North Africa and the Middle East as well.

Considering Turkey's ability to keep Iraqi Kurds from causing too much hassel in their kurdish enclaves I have more confedance in them than the Spanish at keeping the boarders closed.

No, Europe has not expanded too far (although there is a viable debate to be made about how useful it is for europe to be held back by keeping the ungrateful british). It should have probably grown slower and have much deeper links than exist at the moment, but ultimately the European union should encompase all of Europe, including Russia, Turkey and Albania, possibly Greenland and Iceland and parts of North Africa and the Middle East as well.

Considering Turkey's ability to keep Iraqi Kurds from causing too much hassel in their kurdish enclaves I have more confedance in them than the Spanish at keeping the boarders closed.
Europe is now at a total impasse. It was hard enough trying to get 15 countries to agree on anything, let along 25, soon to be 27. And it's nothing to do with the 'ungrateful British'; it was France and the Netherlands that rejected the Constitution. It is 'traditional Europe' that is turning against enlargment, and it will be 'tradititional Europe' that will tear the EU apart if it expands much further.

1) I dont think she has the largest army in Europe, perhaps you may want to look at the size and quality of the French army

2) You also may want to look at the new and upcoming former soviet republic who are to be entering into the Europena Union, considering that they are much closer to a potential market ( Russia = 142,893,540 population , China = 1,313,973,713 population ) thats a huge market by anyones standards.
3) We have promised Turkey introduction providing she agrees to all rules and regulation wich a bound and non-negotiable.

France's Army is one of the best in the world and in a war between the two I've no doubt who would win, but Turkey has more men under arms and few overseas commitments at the moment. If Europe is to to participate more readily in global afairs it will require a greater quantity of men at the ready.

As for the former Soviet Republics - including Russia (which is being depopulated) these will enter none the less so I don't feel how their entry can be seen as a replace ment for turkey. As for playing by the rules - France? UK? Portugal? Every one of the major European nations has broken the rules and got away with it.

1) I dont think she has the largest army in Europe, perhaps you may want to look at the size and quality of the French army

2) You also may want to look at the new and upcoming former soviet republic who are to be entering into the Europena Union, considering that they are much closer to a potential market ( Russia = 142,893,540 population , China = 1,313,973,713 population ) thats a huge market by anyones standards.
3) We have promised Turkey introduction providing she agrees to all rules and regulation wich a bound and non-negotiable.

France's Army is one of the best in the world and in a war between the two I've no doubt who would win, but Turkey has more men under arms and few overseas commitments at the moment. If Europe is to to participate more readily in global afairs it will require a greater quantity of men at the ready.

As for the former Soviet Republics - including Russia (which is being depopulated) these will enter none the less so I don't feel how their entry can be seen as a replace ment for turkey. As for playing by the rules - France? UK? Portugal? Every one of the major European nations has broken the rules and got away with it.

France's Army is one of the best in the world

Google "french military victories" and click on I'm Feeling Lucky

Five Reasons:
1) Prisons.
2) Kurdistan.
3) Women's Rights.
4) The EU Agricultural Policy.
5) Armenian Genocide.

As for the size of their military...who gives a shit? Turkey's already in NATO (And yes, Turkey's army is the largets of the "European" nations, followed by the Ukraine, Germany, France, Italy and the UK - in that order).

What hypocracy:
1) UK complicity in Abu Graib abd Guantanimo
2) Northern Ireland, Basque Regions, Corsica, Sardinia etc
3) When did French women get the right to vote, worse still Swiss (I know their not EU, but they definately are model Europeans), is there not still sexism through out Europe?
4) Hopefully the threat of having to extend it to turkey will collapse the bloody policy
5) British, French, Spanish Empires? Franco, Hilter, Musolini? Romana Empire? Reformation? German colonialists hunting Ko San and Hoi people in Namibia as if they were animals, British doing the same to Moiri in New Zealand. The Slave trade, the Cold war, the occupation of Ireland, the Troubles, slaughter of the Swiss Guard by the revloutionaries in France etc etc etc ad nausium - why should the past be used as shackles against the presant and the future

Google "french military victories" and click on I'm Feeling Lucky

Don't be silly.

You just triple posted.

but ultimately the European union should encompase all of Europe ... possibly Greenland and Iceland

Iceland doesn't really need the EU and are already a member of the schengen treaty. I think open borders and strong economic ties are just as good and less of an adminstrative hassel.

Greenland is more or less the same as Iceland, except that it is the protectorate of a country that is in the EU, namely Denmark.

Google "french military victories" and click on I'm Feeling Lucky
Hahahahahahaha! :D

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e283/Slippery__Jim/france.jpg

Don't be silly.

Seconded.

Hahahahahahaha! :D

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e283/Slippery__Jim/france.jpg

If you knew any history you'd be less inclined to make silly assertions like that and if this is going to devolve into unfounded francophobia then I'm off. Anyway, my computer is playing up.

Should Turkey be allowed into European Community ?Not yet.

If you knew any history you'd be less inclined to make silly assertions like that and if this is going to devolve into unfounded francophobia then I'm off. Anyway, my computer is playing up.
Oh, pish posh, you don't have to be 'Francophobic' to find that quite an amusing search result.

I know plenty of history, thank you. :) Simply saying "all nations have been bad in the past so we should let Turkey in" isn't a valid argument. When their human rights issues become 'history', then we can think about it.

For the last time, NO. They're not even European. If we let them in, let's let in the US and Australia too. They're just as European as turkey.

And if we wanted lots of poor, stupid people, we'd admit Belarus, Ukraine or Russia.

If that was a question asked of me right now in a referendum (for example)...I would have to say no.

Turkey's human rights record is a travesty...even when compared to the UK (and we are not great shakes!)...however the main thing with Turkey's human rights is that death is a constant companion....in West Europe that is not the case for the most part.

The only thing that could sway me is that if Turkey becomes moderate (as apposed to islamofacist) and takes a more active part in dealing with said islamofacists...afterall its easier to convince someone if they are already on your 'side' as it were...

But there is no measurement in the latter...therefore the former takes precedent.

If you asked me if guest workers deserve more rights....I'd say all people who pay taxes deserve representation at the very least....

For the last time, NO. They're not even European. If we let them in, let's let in the US and Australia too. They're just as European as turkey.

And if we wanted lots of poor, stupid people, we'd admit Belarus, Ukraine or Russia.K-P, do you have German citizenship?

actually, women's rights are pretty progressive in Turkey, they got the right to vote in the 20's I believe with Kemal Ataturk. Also, Turkey is the only European country that will have a growing population by 2025 (Italy will have lost a quarter of its population by 2050).

K-P, do you have German citizenship?

No. When I say "we", I speak as the West.

K-P, do you have German citizenship?

Wait a minute, this is K-P?!?

No. When I say "we", I speak as the West."We" as in the "West" has no jurisdiction over the EU, so please stop bitching about things that don't concern you.

Wait a minute, this is K-P?!?The one who's "tribe" are the Alemannisch...

If that was a question asked of me right now in a referendum (for example)...I would have to say no.

Turkey's human rights record is a travesty...even when compared to the UK (and we are not great shakes!)...however the main thing with Turkey's human rights is that death is a constant companion....in West Europe that is not the case for the most part.

The only thing that could sway me is that if Turkey becomes moderate (as apposed to islamofacist) and takes a more active part in dealing with said islamofacists...afterall its easier to convince someone if they are already on your 'side' as it were...

But there is no measurement in the latter...therefore the former takes precedent.

If you asked me if guest workers deserve more rights....I'd say all people who pay taxes deserve representation at the very least....


It's never been an islamofascist state, look at the scads of moderate reforms they have, women make up a quarter of law school graduates in 1994 and the number is growing

As for human rights abuses, most of that was in the past, and no worse than the Holocaust

The one who's "tribe" are the Alemannisch...

Gah. I thought he'd been deleted...

"We" as in the "West" has no jurisdiction over the EU, so please stop bitching about things that don't concern you.

If we non-European Westerners decided to stay out of European affairs 60 years ago, you'd be working in a concentration camp right now.

If we let them in, let's let in the US and Australia too.
Sure, sounds good to me.

All we'd need to do is re-name it, after all. And try to get the US not to ignore everything it says.

Gah. I thought he'd been deleted...

Don't you know who I am? I'm the Juggernaut, bitch!

Sure, sounds good to me.

All we'd need to do is re-name it, after all. And try to get the US not to ignore everything it says.

I agree. I reckon we should call it, "The League of Nations."

Don't you know who I am? I'm the Juggernaut, bitch!

Lame.

The only thing that could sway me is that if Turkey becomes moderate (as apposed to islamofacist) and takes a more active part in dealing with said islamofacists...afterall its easier to convince someone if they are already on your 'side' as it were...


Turkey actually IS very moderate; its the only secular state in the Middle East. Yes, practically everyones a Muslim, but practically everyones a protestant in Denmark (well, if they aren't atheists :p), so does that make Denmark ruled by Christo-fascists?

If we non-European Westerners decided to stay out of European affairs 60 years ago, you'd be working in a concentration camp right now.You equate the decision an international body has to make about the membership of another country with the holocaust?

I'll see you and raise:

3) The EU has already expanded too far and is in genuine and serious danger of collapse if it continues to grasp further than its reach.
4) It would provide an easy gateway from unstable Middle Eastern countries into Western Europe.

so expanding into eastern Europe hasn't brought a gateway into shaky Eastern European nations (such as Russia and Belaurus, neither in a very good state)?

actually, women's rights are pretty progressive in Turkey, they got the right to vote in the 20's I believe with Kemal Ataturk. Also, Turkey is the only European country that will have a growing population by 2025 (Italy will have lost a quarter of its population by 2050).

Yes you are right but that has been a major fight and from what I understand only seen in the cities and tourist areas...

You go into deepest Anatolia and you will see the harshest of treatments dished out to women.

Yes you are right but that has been a major fight and from what I understand only seen in the cities and tourist areas...

You go into deepest Anatolia and you will see the harshest of treatments dished out to women.Of course, if the term "Islamo-fascist" were to apply, it would have to be a government run oppression.

I'm for it.
Certainly they have to do something to improve their human rights issues. And the prospect of joining will help tremendously in doing that.

If we let them in, let's let in the US and Australia too. They're just as European as turkey.Moreso in some respects, less so in others.
The population and culture of the US and Australia descents mostly from Europe. But unlike Turkey they have no territory in Europe at all; they're not even close. However I wouldn't mind if Australia joined (or a number of other countries from the Commonwealth).

You equate the decision an international body has to make about the membership of another country with the holocaust?

No, I equate the EU's pathetic PC policies with Western Europe's pathetic "appease the Nazis" policies.

No, I equate the EU's pathetic PC policies with Western Europe's pathetic "appease the Nazis" policies.That would be just as misguided.

If we non-European Westerners decided to stay out of European affairs 60 years ago, you'd be working in a concentration camp right now.Yeah, and if we stayed out of your affairs 400 years ago you wouldnt' have existed.. boohoo..

Moreso in some respects, less so in others.
The population and culture of the US and Australia descents mostly from Europe. But unlike Turkey they have no territory in Europe at all; they're not even close. However I wouldn't mind if Australia joined (or a number of other countries from the Commonwealth).

As opposed to turkey, who have 3% of their land in Europe?

Yes you are right but that has been a major fight and from what I understand only seen in the cities and tourist areas...

You go into deepest Anatolia and you will see the harshest of treatments dished out to women.

of course you will always find certain people who oppose measures like this, but it's not exactly like that.

For instance, Turkey had a women Prime Minister, and women are rapidly gaining jobs previously held against them (quarter of law school positions are held by women, something I've already said)

Yeah, and if we stayed out of your affairs 400 years ago you wouldnt' have existed.. boohoo..

400 years ago, your affairs were our affairs, you dunderhead.

It's never been an islamofascist state, look at the scads of moderate reforms they have, women make up a quarter of law school graduates in 1994 and the number is growing

As for human rights abuses, most of that was in the past, and no worse than the Holocaust

I agree with you..it is not an islamofascist state...and that is one thing in its favour...and also possibly the key to solving the entire issue of the middle east...really do beleive that Turkey can be a moderating force on the islamonutters...

Sadly the human rights issues have not stopped....

Everything from Orhan Parmuk to torture...it is still happening....

The problem is that Turkey is effectively controlled by the Army.

Sadly the human rights issues have not stopped....

Everything from Orhan Parmuk to torture...it is still happening....

The problem is that Turkey is effectively controlled by the Army.

Not to mention the Armenian Genocide. If Germany has to roll on the ground and cry like a little girl, turkey should too.

As opposed to turkey, who have 3% of their land in Europe?3% is still more than nothing.
And of course if you look back a century or two, you'll notice they used to make up a significantly larger part. Turkey has a big historical connection to the rest of Europe.

I wouldn't oppose a gradual incorporation of the entire former Roman Empire, to be honest. And then on to the rest of the world :P

Well its only a matter of time when the so called Turkish borders begin to collapse under the KURDS, ARMENIANS

of course you will always find certain people who oppose measures like this, but it's not exactly like that.

For instance, Turkey had a women Prime Minister, and women are rapidly gaining jobs previously held against them (quarter of law school positions are held by women, something I've already said)

And I think that is great....but the fact is that at this moment in time the Army runs Turkey. Luckily the 'Generals' are getting old and once this buch have gone proper reform will take place.

Do not forget that alot of the 'freedoms' have happened because the Generals have allowed it....they do want to join the EU afterall!

3% is still more than nothing.
And of course if you look back a century or two, you'll notice they used to make up a significantly larger part. Turkey has a big historical connection to the rest of Europe.

Boy oh boy. Should we let Germany into the CIS? 60 years ago, they controlled a lot of Eastern Europe. It's a good plan.

I agree with you..it is not an islamofascist state...and that is one thing in its favour...and also possibly the key to solving the entire issue of the middle east...really do beleive that Turkey can be a moderating force on the islamonutters...

Sadly the human rights issues have not stopped....

Everything from Orhan Parmuk to torture...it is still happening....

The problem is that Turkey is effectively controlled by the Army.

An army that has held 3 coups and then turned over the country back to civilians. Torture is happening on a miniscule scale in Kurdish areas were rebels continue to battle them. It's happening, but there are only a small fraction of what there used to be. Besides, the UK is in Guantanamo, and whatever else counter-terroism operations it has against Northern Ireland

The problem is that Turkey is effectively controlled by the Army.They're also the only thing that guaranteed that Turkey has been secular for so long.
But we're nto talking about having them join tomorrow. Just eventually, under conditions.

No. Turkey has the wrong cultural structure to be part of the EU. It won't fit. It would make more sense to admit Canada or Brazil.

Boy oh boy. Should we let Germany into the CIS? 60 years ago, they controlled a lot of Eastern Europe. It's a good plan.CIS??
Besides they only occupied it a few years, not gorvern it for centuries.. And they're already part of the EU.. What are you on about anyway..?

No. Turkey has the wrong cultural structure to be part of the EU. It won't fit. It would make more sense to admit Canada or Brazil.

True. I mean, the states that are in there NOW are hard enough to deal with. Letting turkey in would be like letting aliens into the UN.

Boy oh boy. Should we let Germany into the CIS? 60 years ago, they controlled a lot of Eastern Europe. It's a good plan.

technically, the CIS is former Russian nations, although it doesn't have anything in its name that would suggest it couldn't expand further.

Also, Turkey has land in Europe, while Germany has no Russian land, nor was it part of the USSR

UK complicity in Abu Graib abd Guantanimo
Well, the EU is investigating complicity in things that can be considered to be against human rights. Abu Ghraib was not under British jurisdiction and what happened there was probably not known to the UK government, so there is no way you can talk of complicity.
You may have noticed that Tony called for Guantanamo to be closed, and he already got all British citizens (with one possible exception...) out of there.

Northern Ireland, Basque Regions, Corsica, Sardinia etc
I believe that none of these regions are being oppressed like Kurdistan is. The Kurdish language, holidays etc are outlawed/not allowed in schools.
When a parliamentarian called for a solution regarding the situation, perhaos involving a "Kurdish State", she was thrown into prison for anti-Turkish remarks.

3) When did French women get the right to vote, worse still Swiss (I know their not EU, but they definately are model Europeans), is there not still sexism through out Europe?
Have you happened to see the footage of the "honour killing"? It made headlines in Turkey.
The woman was lying in front of her door with multiple stab wounds while her husband looked at her, a policeman standing in the background, not caring.
And that doesn't even mention what happened to the protests on "International Women's Day".

4) Hopefully the threat of having to extend it to turkey will collapse the bloody policy
Yeah, at the cost of the European tax payer. I'd prefer to get it thrown out first, rather than first have it suck all money out of the EU and then collapse.

5) British, French, Spanish Empires?
...
why should the past be used as shackles against the presant and the future
Because of the way Turkey is dealing with, or rather not dealing with it. Denial is the official line, and people who publicly mention the Armenian genocide get thrown into jail.
I'm sorry, but that's just not compatible with the EU, and before that gets sorted out, they shouldn't join.
And the problem with time plans for countries to join is that checks are usually not done properly, and stopping the process if the other side doesn't comply is a political embarrassment ergo it doesn't happen (see Romania and Bulgaria right now).

Not to mention the Armenian Genocide. If Germany has to roll on the ground and cry like a little girl, turkey should too.

The first 20th century genocide...

CIS??
Besides they only occupied it a few years, not gorvern it for centuries.. And they're already part of the EU.. What are you on about anyway..?

And it was several centuries ago. Many Southern Europeans wouldn't take your excuse very well. "They used to enslave and oppress you, so now, we're forcing you to open your border to them. Hooray for unity!"

400 years ago, your affairs were our affairs, you dunderhead.Yeah, and 60 years ago the US didnt' come to help us out just for our benefit either..
Besides which the commies would have overrun the nazis anyway, so we'd be in gulags, not concentration camps. dimwit.

The first 20th century genocide...

but not the worst genocide, or the worst

technically, the CIS is former Russian nations, although it doesn't have anything in its name that would suggest it couldn't expand further.

Also, Turkey has land in Europe, while Germany has no Russian land, nor was it part of the USSR

Former Russian nations? I have Ukrainian relatives who would break your legs for saying that. We don't like Russia.

Former Russian nations? I have Ukrainian relatives who would break your legs for saying that. We don't like Russia.
Oh, please. Half the country voted, and continues to vote, for a candidate who wants as close ties with Russia as possible.

CIS??
Besides they only occupied it a few years, not gorvern it for centuries.. And they're already part of the EU.. What are you on about anyway..?
Community of Independent States. It's an economic community of the former soviet republics.

but not the worst genocide, or the worst

It was an early model for the Holocaust: they were the first, AFAIK, to mix genocide and industrialisation.

No. Turkey has the wrong cultural structure to be part of the EU. It won't fit. It would make more sense to admit Canada or Brazil.

everyone has different cultural sructures, and it's rather racist to say because a country has a different cultural system, they shouldn't be allowed in

Former Russian nations? I have Ukrainian relatives who would break your legs for saying that. We don't like Russia.

but Ukraine was formerly part of Russia before it broke away.

Oh, please. Half the country voted, and continues to vote, for a candidate who wants as close ties with Russia as possible.

That's because half the country IS Russian. The Soviets flooded us with Russians so they'd have some control in case the USSR collapsed.

Former Russian nations? I have Ukrainian relatives who would break your legs for saying that. We don't like Russia.The ones in the West, to my knowledge, yes. The one's in the East were harping on about breaking off and cooperating closer with Russia, if I remember correctly.

No. Turkey has the wrong cultural structure to be part of the EU. It won't fit. It would make more sense to admit Canada or Brazil.

I agree. If Canada joined the Uk wouldn't always be the odd ones out.

The ones in the West, to my knowledge, yes. The one's in the East were harping on about breaking off and cooperating closer with Russia, if I remember correctly.

See above post.

everyone has different cultural sructures, and it's rather racist to say because a country has a different cultural system, they shouldn't be allowed in

Take that and stuff it. It is not racist in the slightest to recognise cultural differences. It would be racist if I were to be arguing that we are better then them, but I am not.

Turkey is a country that does not have the Western European cultural history, their way of thinking and acting belong to another civilization, that of the middle east. The foundation of Turkish society and traditions is not the Greco-roman foundation of the EU, it is Persian - Summerian.

It makes about as much sense admitting Turkey as it would to admit Japan into the EU (in cultural terms).

Why does this matter? Because to obtain political agreements on basic issues, the priorities and values of the member states have to share common ground. Turkey simply does not have the requisite degree of commonality with western europe for this to occur.

See above post.They're a tad more Ukrainian than you are Australian, and you are Australian.

That's because half the country IS Russian. The Soviets flooded us with Russians so they'd have some control in case the USSR collapsed.
http://www.schildersmilies.de/noschild/laughoutloud.gif

An army that has held 3 coups and then turned over the country back to civilians. Torture is happening on a miniscule scale in Kurdish areas were rebels continue to battle them. It's happening, but there are only a small fraction of what there used to be. Besides, the UK is in Guantanamo, and whatever else counter-terroism operations it has against Northern Ireland

I fail to understand why people keep bringing up the UK in this thread ABOUT TURKEY! (sorry).

Yes you are right about the Army and its handing over of power to civilians. That is what Attaturk intended for the Army to do. But also the Army is there to step in when the civilians start getting too big for their boots.

Some say that the Army is Turkey. It is that ingrained.

Torture does not happen on a miniscule scale...why do you think they have a major monitoring system in place?

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/03/06/turkey12756.htm

I think we are saying the samething actually....abuses are happening but they vastly reduced from the 90's (granted...also this was when the idea was mooted that Turkey joins the EU)...but they are still happening all over the country...not just th eKurdish areas.

I wonder if there are any Turks here who can shed a better light on the issue??

I don't know why the fuss about cultral differences. Europe's biggest problem is its shared culture. that is why it was started. The shared culture of regulalry invading each other.

They're a tad more Ukrainian than you are Australian, and you are Australian.

I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think. There are Ukrainians in Ukraine who count me as one of them, and their opinion matters a teensie bit more than yours.

Take that and stuff it. It is not racist in the slightest to recognise cultural differences. It would be racist if I were to be arguing that we are better then them, but I am not.

Turkey is a country that does not have the Western European cultural history, their way of thinking and acting belong to another civilization, that of the middle east. The foundation of Turkish society and traditions is not the Greco-roman foundation of the EU, it is Persian - Summerian.

It makes about as much sense admitting Turkey as it would to admit Japan into the EU (in cultural terms).

Why does this matter? Because to obtain political agreements on basic issues, the priorities and values of the member states have to share common ground. Turkey simply does not have the requisite degree of commonality with western europe for this to occur.

I'm pretty sure the entire EU isn't Greco-Roman, such as Poland, Romania, etc.

http://www.schildersmilies.de/noschild/laughoutloud.gif

Boy, I never thought I'd see the day that I could call YOU ignorant.

Google "french military victories" and click on I'm Feeling Lucky
Wow. That must be a new record:
To create a troll puppet nation and do the typical and oh-so-boringly predictable knee-jerk reaction post to slagging off the French, all within 10 minutes of someone mentioning in their post about the French military.
Well done, puppet troll. Well done. Good to see some NS'er out there still doing the old school 'I hate the French cause GWB told me to' schtick.
Keeping traditions alive, no matter how dumb.

[QUOTE=Rubiconic Crossings]I fail to understand why people keep bringing up the UK in this thread ABOUT TURKEY! (sorry).

Let me explain. The UK is currently a member of the EU. Turkey is not. Turkey's membership or otherwise will have a profound effect on every aspect of the EU therefore its relations, differences and smiliarities with other EU members are worthy of consideration.

[QUOTE=Rubiconic Crossings]I fail to understand why people keep bringing up the UK in this thread ABOUT TURKEY! (sorry).

Let me explain. The UK is currently a member of the EU. Turkey is not. Turkey's membership or otherwise will have a profound effect on every aspect of the EU therefore its relations, differences and smiliarities with other EU members are worthy of consideration.

Yeah yeah...I know...I just had to vent is all :mad: LOL

that's what NS is for:D

Boy, I never thought I'd see the day that I could call YOU ignorant.
The very fact that you, away from everything that has ever been Ukrainian, would dare to tell half the citizens of the Ukraine what they are and what they are not, and that you would excuse this by resorting to ridiculous conspiracy theories was enough to make me post that smiley.

There may or may not have been a grain of truth to the message (one that is quite irrelevant to the argument) but you completely failed to get it across, dude.

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=4936

I couldn't give a flying fuck what you think. There are Ukrainians in Ukraine who count me as one of them, and their opinion matters a teensie bit more than yours.

Therefore, as a European, I am justified in not caring what you think about Turkey joining the EU. After all, I'm part of it, therefore my opinion matters more than yours.

I'm pretty sure the entire EU isn't Greco-Roman, such as Poland, Romania, etc.

Different parts of the EU have been influenced to different degrees, but the basic value system and legal system derives from the Greco-roman systems throughout. It is not a matter of the countries having been part of the Roman empire, but a matter of how the culture in the country has been constructed. Both Poland and Romania (the countries you selected) have been strongly influenced througout the second millenium by the ties, intermarriage, relations etc. between their leaders and those in the west. The leaders of these nations defined the legal systems, the educational goals, the religious institutions etc. i.e the culture.

This did not happen with Turkey. There the ties were with countries to the South and East. With muslim nations. (No value judgement is being made here before you misplay the racist card again). This has led to completely different legal, political and institutional systems.

It was not until Ataturk that Turkey ceased to be officially a Sharia nation, though it still is in practice due to its traditions. One bare century of westernisation is not time enough to outweigh three millenia or more of tradition. With time, a lot of time, Turkey may become a western nation, in which case it would be appropriate for it to join the EU, when this happens.

that's what NS is for:D

Oh yeah! LOL

Its been a while!

The very fact that you, away from everything that has ever been Ukrainian, would dare to tell half the citizens of the Ukraine what they are and what they are not, and that you would excuse this by resorting to ridiculous conspiracy theories was enough to make me post that smiley.

There may or may not have been a grain of truth to the message (one that is quite irrelevant to the argument) but you completely failed to get it across, dude.

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=4936

Roughly twenty five percent of Ukrainian citizens are not ethnically Ukrainian. Add that to conservative Ukrainians and we're back to communism.

And dude, I know a lot more about Ukraine that you, methinks. I have family there. I have relatives who were there in the square in Kiev when the revolution happened.

And dude, I know a lot more about Ukraine that you, methinks. I have family there. I have relatives who were there in the square in Kiev when the revolution happened.
That just shows that they know a lot about the Ukraine. Your point was obviously that people were only pro-Russian because they weren't real Ukrainians. I disproved that, which shows that in that particular instance any knowledge you may have had was clouded by a need to once again divide people along ethnic lines.

The one who's "tribe" are the Alemannisch...

Wasn't he barred for a while because of his racist outbursts after feining a suicidal breakdown??

That just shows that they know a lot about the Ukraine. Your point was obviously that people were only pro-Russian because they weren't real Ukrainians. I disproved that, which shows that in that particular instance any knowledge you may have had was clouded by a need to once again divide people along ethnic lines.

I never said that people were only pro-Russian because they weren't Ukrainian. I said (meant) that was a major reason. Another is because Ukrainians can also be idiots, just like Germans who vote communist, or palestinians who vote terrorist.

Wasn't he barred for a while because of his racist outbursts after feining a suicidal breakdown??

I wasn't feining. My mum's sending me to a psychologist for possible depression.

If we non-European Westerners decided to stay out of European affairs 60 years ago, you'd be working in a concentration camp right now.

Nonsense, Britian and Germany would have made an accomidation, France would have spent some time damaged adn fighting itself but would have recoverd some dignity and the conflict would have changed from "West" and Soviets against Nazis to "West" and Nazi's vs the Soviets as Churchill suspected should have happened. American's forget that Britain and France had hughe empire held in reserve and that, ultimately, it was the Soviets that defeated the Nazis and not the "West"

Nonsense, Britian and Germany would have made an accomidation, France would have spent some time damaged adn fighting itself but would have recoverd some dignity and the conflict would have changed from "West" and Soviets against Nazis to "West" and Nazi's vs the Soviets as Churchill suspected should have happened. American's forget that Britain and France had hughe empire held in reserve and that, ultimately, it was the Soviets that defeated the Nazis and not the "West"

The Soviets didn't defeat the Nazis, Hitler defeated the Nazis. Had they gone through the Caucasus, the Soviet armies wouldn't have any oil and would have been immobilised, and then the Nazis might have won.

As opposed to turkey, who have 3% of their land in Europe?
Where is the line in the sand that devides Europe from Asia? somewhere in the Urals! Anyway, Turkey has been offered a place in exchange for reform and it would be counter productive to renaige on the deal.

Had they gone through the Caucasus, the Soviet armies wouldn't have any oil and would have been immobilised, and then the Nazis might have won.
They tried, remember? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad#Operation_Blau)

Where is the line in the sand that devides Europe from Asia? somewhere in the Urals!

Actually, in turkey's case, it's the Bosphorus. It's actually a real division: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e4/Istambul_and_Bosporus_big.jpg/515px-Istambul_and_Bosporus_big.jpg

They tried, remember? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad#Operation_Blau)

Well, it doesn't work that LATE. Had it been one of their earlier moves, the Soviets would have been in trouble.

400 years ago, your affairs were our affairs, you dunderhead.

No 400 years ago you (I'm presuming you're claiming to be American this week, what happened to the Australian and German identies) were a religious refugees fleeing the early enlightenment.

If you are still claiming to be Australian then well "CRIMINALS"

Well, it doesn't work that LATE. Had it been one of their earlier moves, the Soviets would have been in trouble.
They tried that too. Hitler had the choice between Leningrad, Moscow and Kiev. He chose the latter, when he should've chosen Moscow.

Although Kiev was a great victory, it didn't weaken the Soviets by much. Taking out the Soviet leadership would have, and I for one believe that Stalin (who was mysteriously missing from the records for a few days when the Germans threatened to take the town) would not have come back, and his party would have fallen.

As it was, going to the Caucasus just takes ages, and winter stopped them in the middle.

No 400 years ago you (I'm presuming you're claiming to be American this week, what happened to the Australian and German identies) were a religious refugees fleeing the early enlightenment.

If you are still claiming to be Australian then well "CRIMINALS"

I was always living in Australia. And 400 years ago, my ancestors were fighting the Poles in Ukraine. As well as living placidly in Baden. Or whatever they called it back then.

They tried that too. Hitler had the choice between Leningrad, Moscow and Kiev. He chose the latter, when he should've chosen Moscow.

Although Kiev was a great victory, it didn't weaken the Soviets by much. Taking out the Soviet leadership would have, and I for one believe that Stalin (who was mysteriously missing from the records for a few days when the Germans threatened to take the town) would not have come back, and his party would have fallen.

As it was, going to the Caucasus just takes ages, and winter stopped them in the middle.

Well duh. He should have always gone for Moscow. But the Caucasus was extremely vital too. Had they gone for it earlier, the Soviets would have been immobilised during critical battles.

Funny. Germany lost two WWs in a row by not striking at the enemy capitals.

everything he says

I'm really tired of the rhetoric.

Why do you have to try and devide everyone into them and us, especially in such an outdated and impractical fashion.
You don't like the French, the Russians, the Turks, can I throw black and yellow people into the mix??

I'm really tired of the rhetoric.

Why do you have to try and devide everyone into them and us, especially in such an outdated and impractical fashion.
You don't like the French, the Russians, the Turks, can I throw black and yellow people into the mix??

Because the entire concept of intelligent life is "us against them." Me against my brothers, my brothers and I against our cousins, my brothers and cousins and I against our tribe, my tribe and I against the country, my country and I against the world.

The plus side I see about Turkey joining is that it will encourage them to accept freedom. Right now they have a lot to come clean about. I like to think it will bridge the gap between west and middle-east. But I´m not holding my breath. My principal objection that are easy to overcome would be:

#1: Armenian genocide
#2: Kurds
#3: Christians rights
#4: Human rights record
#5: Cyprus

Harder to accept is the rumors similar to the "Polish plumber". I don't know if Turks will flood Europe to fill up the labor pool. Or if Turks currently in Europe will go home. I hope it's the latter. My country doesn't need more workers, it needs more jobs.

Much harder is accepting Turkish influence. They are estimated to get quite a say in European politics and I don't want that. We have France and Germany to mess up for us, do we really need the Turks? Those nations in the east all tend to be organized like cartels. I don't doubt it they force through some bad ideas by weight of numbers.

Furthermore, they fit in mostly with the Balkans and Soviet bloc in that they stand a lot to gain from European subsidies. In exchange they may flood our markets with cheap olives, fruits and wine. Nobody will buy the products produced in their own country anymore, making it unprofitable to be a (greenhouse)farmer. So they close their business, putting more people out of a job, and then people will be unable to buy any fruit at all.

And I'm still not certain that Turkey is in fact European. Their capitol in in Asia. And only a tiny part is on the mainland of Europe.

To make matters worse I don't like the EU. It's even more remote from the average Joe than the national politicians. The EU can't be trusted to do anything democratic, something that will have the support of the people. Decentralise it, and stop it from deciding everything for us!

Because the entire concept of intelligent life is "us against them." Me against my brothers, my brothers and I against our cousins, my brothers and cousins and I against our tribe, my tribe and I against the country, my country and I against the world.

No, the concept of life is tribalism, 'us against them', as you say.

The concept of intelligent life is rising above our primitive instincts.

Because the entire concept of intelligent life is "us against them." Me against my brothers, my brothers and I against our cousins, my brothers and cousins and I against our tribe, my tribe and I against the country, my country and I against the world.

Men's humanity as based on the need to win the right to reproduce and most of our ills and some of our virtues spill forth (don't forgive the pun) from that most primorial of urges. That being said, the kind of social dawinism mixed with xenophobia that exudes from you is outdated, unpalitable and offensive.

No, the concept of life is tribalism, 'us against them', as you say.

The concept of intelligent life is rising above our primitive instincts.
Much better put than my response to him.

I guess this applies to most european citizens and the question is very simple,

Should Turkey be allowed into European Community ?


No reason for 'em not to join - IF and WHEN they properly fit in.
( a minor point of explanation: that means that they conform to us - and we don't conform to them )

I'll bet three cookies to one that the almighty EU lets Turkey in within a decade, but with less rights and privileges than other "real" EU nations.
A sort of second class citizen among the community of nations.

I'll bet three cookies to one that the almighty EU lets Turkey in within a decade, but with less rights and privileges than other "real" EU nations.
A sort of second class citizen among the community of nations.


Well thats the general idea from the begining

turkey is good with mayonaise

I'll bet three cookies to one that the almighty EU lets Turkey in within a decade, but with less rights and privileges than other "real" EU nations.
A sort of second class citizen among the community of nations.

*raised eyebrow*
If you don't think that being a second-class member of the European Union is a thing to aspire to, you don't belong to the club at all.

*raised eyebrow*
If you don't think that being a second-class member of the European Union is a thing to aspire to, you don't belong to the club at all.

Agreed. Other second-class members include Iceland, Switzerland and Norway. They're fairly well-off and benefitting from a non-entangling relationship (which also benefits the EU, as it doesn't get tangled up either).

Agreed. Other second-class members include Iceland, Switzerland and Norway. They're fairly well-off and benefitting from a non-entangling relationship (which also benefits the EU, as it doesn't get tangled up either).


*smiles*

Turkey shouldn't be allowed to join

Five Reasons:
1) Prisons.
2) Kurdistan.
3) Women's Rights.
4) The EU Agricultural Policy.
5) Armenian Genocide.

As for the size of their military...who gives a shit? Turkey's already in NATO (And yes, Turkey's army is the largets of the "European" nations, followed by the Ukraine, Germany, France, Italy and the UK - in that order).
I would second this. Furthermore, given the tensions with Islam in Europe right now, I would most definitely not agree to Turkey's entry due to the potential exacerbation of the problem it might cause. Add to those reasons as well its non-recognition and illegal occupation of parts of an EU nation. The fact that it denies the existence of an EU member is reason enough alone to deny it entry. In the end, the EU is the property of its citizens. They are to decide who joins or not. Enough with this opaque bureaucracy. If they say yes, Turkey can join. If they say no, it is a closed case.

Agreed. Other second-class members include Iceland, Switzerland and Norway. They're fairly well-off and benefitting from a non-entangling relationship (which also benefits the EU, as it doesn't get tangled up either).
Them I would love to upgrade to full members. As well as Russia, when she decides to join.

I don't think a muslim country should ever be allowed in the EU. It would result in more muslims moving into this country when we already have far too many. Plus I don't fancy the idea of country's treasury being bled dry to pay for them.

I don't think a muslim country should ever be allowed in the EU. It would result in more muslims moving into this country when we already have far too many. Plus I don't fancy the idea of country's treasury being bled dry to pay for them.
I am not too keen on the economic costs of integrating such a large, poor country either. Especially since it doesn't have Russia's natural resources to compensate. I am not too bothered about it being Muslim, if it remains strictly secular (its current Presiden'ts religious agenda does not really help). The thing is, there are enough problems with Islam as it is in Europe, and I do not think allowing a large, mostly Muslim country in is going to help; if anything, it might do the opposite.

Well you got the Greece on the pan ready, so all you need now is the Turkey. ;)

Well you got the Greece on the pan ready, so all you need now is the Turkey. ;)
An EU without Greece would be sort of denying its very origins. Greece set the foundations of the West, and is responsible for one of its pillars, namely philosophical thought and democratic principles coupled together.

France's Army is one of the best in the world

pah... agincourt my good man agincourt

and vietnam, ww1,ww2 100 year war, napoleonic invasion of russia, napoleonic wars vs britain, prussian war...blah blah blah ive had enough (and run out of wars they lost)

pah... agincourt my good man agincourt

and vietnam, ww1,ww2 100 year war, napoleonic invasion of russia, napoleonic wars vs britain, prussian war...blah blah blah ive had enough (and run out of wars they lost)
Pre-Revolution France was a veritable superpower. Incidentally, its military successes are what drained the Monarchy's treasury to the point that the Revolution occured.

Do you suppose Turkey will be eaten alive if it was to join the EU?

I am not too keen on the economic costs of integrating such a large, poor country either. Especially since it doesn't have Russia's natural resources to compensate. I am not too bothered about it being Muslim, if it remains strictly secular (its current Presiden'ts religious agenda does not really help). The thing is, there are enough problems with Islam as it is in Europe, and I do not think allowing a large, mostly Muslim country in is going to help; if anything, it might do the opposite.
From I've seen, the people of Turkey don't have much of an appetite for secularism, look at the way they elected islamists. Now the EU wants Turkey to reduce the military's influence in the government as a condition of entry, even though it's the only thing preventing the country from turning into a theocracy.

Do you suppose Turkey will be eaten alive if it was to join the EU?
With cranberry sauce? Nah, we leave that to you North Americans. :)

From I've seen, the people of Turkey don't have much of an appetite for secularism, look at the way they elected islamists. Now the EU wants Turkey to reduce the military's influence in the government as a condition of entry, even though it's the only thing preventing the country from turning into a theocracy.
I know. That is what worries me. The military is the only body powerful enough to keep the government in line, and keep the country committed to secularism. Were Turkey to abandon its secularism, it should be flatly denied entry into the EU. For instance, recently one of the nation's judges was shot, and the President refused to even condemn the action. The military, on the other hand, manifested its support for secularism.

Sure, why not?

Hopefully the EU can put pressure on them to clean up their human rights abuses. I hear there's been a lot of movement in that area already, as Turkey tries to bring them up to a standard that's agreeable to the EU.

Sure, they're not in Europe. So what? I'd be for Narnia joining if it could.

Although, it might be too soon after the last expansion.

I know. That is what worries me. The military is the only body powerful enough to keep the government in line, and keep the country committed to secularism. Were Turkey to abandon its secularism, it should be flatly denied entry into the EU. For instance, recently one of the nation's judges was shot, and the President refused to even condemn the action. The military, on the other hand, manifested its support for secularism.
Exactly, it's a lose-lose situation for Turkey. If the military influence isn't removed over their government, they won't be allowed in as they would be too undemocratic a nation. But if they do get in and become a theocracy they'll be kicked out of the EU anyway. Either way means that Turkey won't be in the EU, and I prefer the one where we'll have a stable secular state on our borders rather than a crazed theocracy.

Exactly, it's a lose-lose situation for Turkey. If the military influence isn't removed over their government, they won't be allowed in as they would be too undemocratic a nation. But if they do get in and become a theocracy they'll be kicked out of the EU anyway. Either way means that Turkey won't be in the EU, and I prefer the one where we'll have a stable secular state on our borders rather than a crazed theocracy.
If Turkey's government changes to one committed to a secular democracy, then maybe it'll be possible for it to join. Otherwise, I don't see it happening. In addition, the citizens will demand a referendum this time round. If they are not satisfied with what they see, Turkey's entry will be put off indefinitely.

Turkey shouldn't be let into the EU for alot of the reasons that people have already mentioned. The main issue is that the EU exists as a economic society based on inter-dependance between its members, thereby eliminating the chances of war in the region and enhancing the idea of helping one another for the greater good rather than pursuing short-term individual gain (ie. The United States).

By allowing Turkey into the EU it would go against everything it stands for. Their human rights record is awful, woman have very little rights etc etc. Yes Britain and France and Germany have all (and still do) get themselves into sticky situations. NO nation's government is free of immorality of some kind. But you cant use that in Turkey's defense because it really doesn't respect human rights at all.

One cant simply say yes because of Turkey's army and labour etc, because then you're stepping very close to the slippery slope of personal and political gain at the expense of the greater good of society. Turkey must change its ways (just as Germany did) and much of the other Eastern new members and then be allowed to join.

Turkey must change its ways (just as Germany did) and much of the other Eastern new members and then be allowed to join.
That's a weird sort of comparison. Germany didn't change its way to get into the EU, it took part in founding it because it had changed its way.

At any rate, I don't think religion is much of an issue. Although you'll find some Islamists there (as you would in pretty much any European metropolis), they've got no way of getting real political influence. As far as the rules for parliamentary politics are concerned, Atatürk's laws are more strictly secular than the European ones.

But fact is that there is no objective way to argue that they should be let in. They have a long way to go in so many categories, and with the way the process has been run with Romania and Bulgaria, I don't trust the politicians to stop the schedule if Turkey fails to stay on course.

And yes, there's the Cyprus thing of course. That needs to be settled and Turkey plays a part in that.

I can't understand why people are so eager to add a non-European country to the EU. Isn't "European Union" clear enough for you? Or shall we rename it "The Union that contains countries that actually have most of their territory in Europe. Serious, in Europe, guys."?

I can't understand why people are so eager to add a non-European country to the EU. Isn't "European Union" clear enough for you? Or shall we rename it "The Union that contains countries that actually have most of their territory in Europe. Serious, in Europe, guys."?

I wouldn't say people are eager to have it in the union. But the country has applied to become a member, and the application has to be considered from all angles.
Personally, I wouldn't want to see them in the EU yet, mostly for reasons of economy and human rights records. But I know that Turkey is hard working on getting those sorted out, so it's quite possible that I will support their candidacy in the future.

I guess this applies to most european citizens and the question is very simple,

Should Turkey be allowed into European Community ?

i like how it makes me sleepy after i eat it....does that count?

With cranberry sauce? Nah, we leave that to you North Americans. :)

Let Turkey join the USA then.
Everybody happy.

If im not mistaken the U.S. is conserned that the turkish military is about to stage a coup d'etat.

And who said that there notvery liberal and above all democratic