NationStates Jolt Archive

Commentary: Well this has been debated many times before, but it appears that Harvard has conducted a pretty thorough analysis. What thinkest thou?

Canadians healthier than Americans, study says (http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060530/canada_us_healthcare_060530)

Canadians are healthier and have better access to health care than U.S. residents. And, according to a new study, Canadians obtain better care for half of what Americans spend on their medical system.

"The data is clear and really irrefutable: Canadians are healthier than Americans and they have better access to medical care," Dr. Steffy Woolhandler of the Harvard Medical School said Tuesday. She added that medical care is easier to access for Canadians.

The study, published in the American Journal of Public Health, was conducted by Harvard Medical School researchers. They also found that:

Canadians were seven per cent more likely to have a regular doctor
Canadians were 19 per cent less likely than Americans to have their health needs go unmet.
Americans were more than twice as likely to forgo needed medicines because of cost.
Discrepancies in health care become even wider when taking into account income, age, sex, race and immigrant status. In those kind of detailed comparisons, Canadians were 33 per cent more likely to have a regular doctor and 27 per cent less likely to have an unmet health need.

Meanwhile, Americans had higher rates of nearly every serious chronic disease, including obesity, diabetes and chronic lung disease, even though U.S. residents were less likely to be smokers.

"We pay almost twice what Canada does for care, more than $6,000 for every American, yet Canadians are healthier, and live two to three years longer," said Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor at Harvard and study co-author.

This first-ever cross-national health survey analyzed data from the Joint Canada/U.S. Survey of Health, with data collected by Statistics Canada and the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics.

It follows a similar study released earlier this month that found white, middle-aged Americans were less healthy than their British counterparts, who spent half as much on health care.

In the latest study, the researchers suggest the biggest barrier to health care in the United States is cost.

More than seven times as many U.S. residents reported going without needed care due to cost, compared to Canadians.

Uninsured U.S. residents were particularly vulnerable, with 30.4 per cent having an unmet health need due to cost, the study reported.

Wait times not a factor in study

CTV's Avis Favaro said the study found Canadians wait, on average, three times more than Americans for medical treatment.

"But when you look at the actual number, it was aa little over three per cent waiting for medical treatment, which is a tiny proportion when you look at the big picture, although doctors and patients might disagree with that," she said.

Lead author Dr. Karen Lasser said that, while Canada gets negative press about long wait times for medical procedures, the health system seems to work better.

"No one ever talks about the fact that low-income and minority patients fare better in Canada," said Lasser, a primary care doctor at Cambridge Health Alliance and an instructor at Harvard Medical School. "Based on our findings, if I had to choose between the two systems for my patients, I would choose the Canadian system hands down."

Dr. Raisa Deber of the University of Toronto said the message of the study is that "the sky is not falling."

"The take-home message is: When you compare Canada to the United States, Canada is spending a lot less money to get better results," said Deber, who specializes in health policy, management and evaluation.

"There are small improvement in places that could be fixed and could be made better. But on average the system is working quite well."

The one problem noted in the study: About 21 per cent of Canadian women were not receiving recommended cervical cancer screening.

"However, death rates from cervical cancer have long been lower in Canada than in the United States, presumably reflecting past screening practices and population risk factors," the study said.

The Joint Canada/U.S. Survey of Health surveyed 3,505 Canadians and 5,183 U.S. residents between November 2002 and March 2003.

The study will be published in the July 2006 issue of the American Journal of Public Health.

Everyone is healthier than the Americans.

Everyone is healthier than the Americans.
Not malnurished 3rd worlders. Just sayin'...

Though for the main article, could probably have guessed that.

Le gasp! :eek:

In other news, grass is green, the ocean is wet, and Fred Phelps is an asshat.

So-effing-what? Who isn't healthier then Americans is what I'd like to know.

You Canadians are gonna feel pretty stupid someday, lying in hospital beds, dying of nothing.. :p

/Redd Foxx /modified for the occassion

Seriously though, go live a little, jeeze... :rolleyes: Malt liquor and tranquilizers all around! :cool:

Unlike Canadians, we Americans utilise our right to kill ourselves.

No surprise there, it's what I would have expected.

No surprise there, it's what I would have expected.
I wasn't really surprised either, but after some heavy duty threads on this topic earlier, this article finally helps clear the air a little.

But nationalized healthcare is socialist and socialists go to hell! If we change to socialised medicine we will be no better than the commies and it will cost us billions of dollars more (never mind the fact that countries with socialized medicine spend less per capita on national healthcare).

In other news: The Pope is discovered to be a Catholic, and exclusive: bears are seen defecating in woods.

Canadians healthier than Americans, study saysIf I'm ever stranded on a deserted island and forced to choose which to eat, I'll keep this in mind ;)

They have a lower fat and sugar content and they are much much tastier.

This news surely proves the supremacy of communism. Americans, submit!

Doesn't surprise me in the least.

Everyone is healthier than the Americans.
I guess this explains why my aunt in Toronto, after being told she would have to wait for 18 months for an operation on her pancreas (when she was told she would be dead in six months without an operation), left the Canadian health care system for a flight down to Virginia, where she got the operation the next day.

If she had relied on the Canadian health care system, she would be dead.

Very good.

We pay almost twice what Canada does for care, more than $6,000 for every American, yet Canadians are healthier, and live two to three years longer

How much on health care?

It follows a similar study released earlier this month that found white, middle-aged Americans were less healthy than their British counterparts, who spent half as much on health care.

Does anybody think Americans are spending to much?

I guess this explains why my aunt in Toronto, after being told she would have to wait for 18 months for an operation on her pancreas (when she was told she would be dead in six months without an operation), left the Canadian health care system for a flight down to Virginia, where she got the operation the next day.

If she had relied on the Canadian health care system, she would be dead.That brings up another possibility why Canadians might be healthier. The sick ones die off quickly for lack of treatment.
Or maybe they are healthier because they all go to the US for treatment..

So now we know that Canadians are both healthier and less militaristic than Americans. What next? I suppose that's Canada's culture of life for you.

How much on health care?

Does anybody think Americans are spending to much?

Yes, and I recall a man in the UK pulling his own teeth out with hand tools after he couldn't find an NHS dentist to pull a bad tooth. This past spring.

"Healthier" doesn't come necessarily from spending more or less on health care. A lot of it comes from individual lifestyle, and not from a government program.

If true healthy living could only come from a government sponsored program, then most of the people in the world would be cancer-ridden cripples laying about waiting to die.

That brings up another possibility why Canadians might be healthier. The sick ones die off quickly for lack of treatment.
Or maybe they are healthier because they all go to the US for treatment..

A fair number of Canadians do make the trip to the States for major surgery. Seems that there's a distinct shortage of certain surgical specialties in Canada, particularly vascular surgeons.

As long as you don't count the dead ones in the survey, it looks pretty good.

Canadians have better Beer and tend to suffer from alot less "lead "poisoning .

Yes, and I recall a man in the UK pulling his own teeth out with hand tools after he couldn't find an NHS dentist to pull a bad tooth. This past spring.I wonder how many people in the US die because they can't afford life-saving procedures? But you probably wouldn't be nearly as interested in that as the cases here or in the UK.
"Healthier" doesn't come necessarily from spending more or less on health care. A lot of it comes from individual lifestyle, and not from a government program.

If true healthy living could only come from a government sponsored program, then most of the people in the world would be cancer-ridden cripples laying about waiting to die.
It's clearly not ONLY about a government sponsored program, but despite the fact that the majority of people in the world are not wasting away from cancer, you aren't going to deny the outrageous infant mortality rates, deaths from preventible childhood diseases, maternal mortality rates, and deaths from preventible adult diseases that afflict people living in nations with limited government-sponsored health programs...are you?

I needed a CAT scan a few weeks ago- the doctor gave me the referral afetr his examination -I called and made the appointment, picked up the mix I had to drink prior to the test and had the conclusive CAT scan at 8:30am the next morning. The doctor had the film results by noon, confirmed his diagnosis and treatment and saw me again to discuss everthing by 3.
I paid the doctor's office one $15.00 co pay and the radiological imaging office where the test was done- 1/2 mile away another $15.00 copay.

You cant ask for more than that. Withing 24 hours, I was seen in person, tested,correctly diagnosed and treated for $30.00.

Barring a sudden rush for CAT scans, I can have the same thing done, in as little time, for free...right here in my very small town, by the way.

There are certain surgical procedures that entail a wait time. That sucks big time. If I were in a position where I needed immediate, life-saving surgery, I think I'd be willing to pay just about any price to get it...I only hope I could actually afford it.

That is the situation for most people on this planet...the ability to afford certain procedures...regardless of their health care system.

At least ours provides a wide range of services to everyone, regardless of income, and doesn't force them into debt in order to do it.

I like this system, I think on the whole, it works much better than most systems out there. It reaches more people, more often. It's not perfect, and it may never be, but what I DON'T want to see is a system like the pure private care in Chile (much worse than in the US, but never mentioned) where you pay for every single visit, pill, prescription, second of your doctor's time.

I guess this explains why my aunt in Toronto, after being told she would have to wait for 18 months for an operation on her pancreas (when she was told she would be dead in six months without an operation), left the Canadian health care system for a flight down to Virginia, where she got the operation the next day.

If she had relied on the Canadian health care system, she would be dead.

Very good.

'cause you know, one anecdotal experience negates an entire Harvard study.

How much on health care?



Does anybody think Americans are spending to much?

I've never heard of anyone spending that much here on healthcare.. I spend maybe $200/year for my plan... certainly, you can spend as much as you like for the perks, having a personal physician on call,etc., but $6,000 is not the norm, not even close. :p I'd be willing to start a poll/thread on that any time.

Canada is a nation of terriorist... thats a fact. However healty that must be a joke...

They needed a study for that...

In any case, it isn't about capering around saying 'we are the best' and you capering around saying, 'no, WE are the best'. The focus should be on providing the best quality health care for the best price, and not bargaining downwards, or pandering only to the wealthy. A healthy society benefits the society as a whole, and there are certain levels that should be maintained, especially in terms of primary health care.

Instead, we have people like Alberta's Ralph Klein, who want to through the baby out with the bath water. Long wait times for certain surgeries? Scrap the WHOLE system! His 'third way' is a load of crap, and will drain the resources of the entire public healthcare system so that more people can get quick knee-replacement surgery. Can someone give me a 'fourth way' please?

'cause you know, one anecdotal experience negates an entire Harvard study.That's one anecdotal experience from an anonymous person on the internet.

Canada is a nation of terriorist... thats a fact. However healty that must be a joke...
One whole terrorist in the bunch of us? What is this person's name? OH! You mean Stephen Harper! Yeah, we'll gladly turn him over to you for processing:)

I've never heard of anyone spending that much here on healthcare.. I spend maybe $200/year for my plan... certainly, you can spend as much as you like for the perks, having a personal physician on call,etc., but $6,000 is not the norm, not even close. :p I'd be willing to start a poll/thread on that any time.
I think the amount that was calculated also included the amount that the US government pays to maintain the system...I always found that really odd, since most people have to buy some sort of insurance anyway, don't they? In any case, the US spends more public funds on the healthcare system than Canada does...but it's not a public system.

Commentary: Well this has been debated many times before, but it appears that Harvard has conducted a pretty thorough analysis. What thinkest thou?

Canadians healthier than Americans, study says (http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060530/canada_us_healthcare_060530)

Canadians are healthier and have better access to health care than U.S. residents. And, according to a new study, Canadians obtain better care for half of what Americans spend on their medical system.

"The data is clear and really irrefutable: Canadians are healthier than Americans and they have better access to medical care," Dr. Steffy Woolhandler of the Harvard Medical School said Tuesday. She added that medical care is easier to access for Canadians.

The study, published in the American Journal of Public Health, was conducted by Harvard Medical School researchers. They also found that:

Canadians were seven per cent more likely to have a regular doctor
Canadians were 19 per cent less likely than Americans to have their health needs go unmet.
Americans were more than twice as likely to forgo needed medicines because of cost.
Discrepancies in health care become even wider when taking into account income, age, sex, race and immigrant status. In those kind of detailed comparisons, Canadians were 33 per cent more likely to have a regular doctor and 27 per cent less likely to have an unmet health need.

Meanwhile, Americans had higher rates of nearly every serious chronic disease, including obesity, diabetes and chronic lung disease, even though U.S. residents were less likely to be smokers.

"We pay almost twice what Canada does for care, more than $6,000 for every American, yet Canadians are healthier, and live two to three years longer," said Dr. David Himmelstein, an associate professor at Harvard and study co-author.

This first-ever cross-national health survey analyzed data from the Joint Canada/U.S. Survey of Health, with data collected by Statistics Canada and the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics.

It follows a similar study released earlier this month that found white, middle-aged Americans were less healthy than their British counterparts, who spent half as much on health care.

In the latest study, the researchers suggest the biggest barrier to health care in the United States is cost.

More than seven times as many U.S. residents reported going without needed care due to cost, compared to Canadians.

Uninsured U.S. residents were particularly vulnerable, with 30.4 per cent having an unmet health need due to cost, the study reported.

Wait times not a factor in study

CTV's Avis Favaro said the study found Canadians wait, on average, three times more than Americans for medical treatment.

"But when you look at the actual number, it was aa little over three per cent waiting for medical treatment, which is a tiny proportion when you look at the big picture, although doctors and patients might disagree with that," she said.

Lead author Dr. Karen Lasser said that, while Canada gets negative press about long wait times for medical procedures, the health system seems to work better.

"No one ever talks about the fact that low-income and minority patients fare better in Canada," said Lasser, a primary care doctor at Cambridge Health Alliance and an instructor at Harvard Medical School. "Based on our findings, if I had to choose between the two systems for my patients, I would choose the Canadian system hands down."

Dr. Raisa Deber of the University of Toronto said the message of the study is that "the sky is not falling."

"The take-home message is: When you compare Canada to the United States, Canada is spending a lot less money to get better results," said Deber, who specializes in health policy, management and evaluation.

"There are small improvement in places that could be fixed and could be made better. But on average the system is working quite well."

The one problem noted in the study: About 21 per cent of Canadian women were not receiving recommended cervical cancer screening.

"However, death rates from cervical cancer have long been lower in Canada than in the United States, presumably reflecting past screening practices and population risk factors," the study said.

The Joint Canada/U.S. Survey of Health surveyed 3,505 Canadians and 5,183 U.S. residents between November 2002 and March 2003.

The study will be published in the July 2006 issue of the American Journal of Public Health.
OMFGWTFLOL!!!!!!!!!!
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Instead, we have people like Alberta's Ralph Klein, who want to through the baby out with the bath water. Long wait times for certain surgeries? Scrap the WHOLE system! His 'third way' is a load of crap, and will drain the resources of the entire public healthcare system so that more people can get quick knee-replacement surgery. Can someone give me a 'fourth way' please?
Actually, Ralphy has more or less had to toss the third way based on response from Albertans, the feds, and the results of the reports that his government commissioned on the subject. He's obviously managed to eat his crow quietly enough that you haven't heard about it yet.

Barring a sudden rush for CAT scans, I can have the same thing done, in as little time, for free...right here in my very small town, by the way.

There are certain surgical procedures that entail a wait time. That sucks big time. If I were in a position where I needed immediate, life-saving surgery, I think I'd be willing to pay just about any price to get it...I only hope I could actually afford it.

That is the situation for most people on this planet...the ability to afford certain procedures...regardless of their health care system.

At least ours provides a wide range of services to everyone, regardless of income, and doesn't force them into debt in order to do it.

I like this system, I think on the whole, it works much better than most systems out there. It reaches more people, more often. It's not perfect, and it may never be, but what I DON'T want to see is a system like the pure private care in Chile (much worse than in the US, but never mentioned) where you pay for every single visit, pill, prescription, second of your doctor's time.

The CAT scan clarified the extent of the condition. Antibiotics and diet are the treatment. Without the CAT scan, I would have had abdominal surgery to remove/resection part of my intestine and had a temporary cholostomy. Likely a week out of work-maybe more.
Instead, I missed a few hours only and avoided a needless surgery.

I like this system as a whole.

I spend maybe $200/year for my plan... certainly, you can spend as much as you like for the perks, having a personal physician on call,etc., but $6,000 is not the norm, not even close.

My employer-based insurance plan for myself and my husband is approximately $2400/year. (I think I figured it out to be $2352.) On top of that I pay $10/prescription and $10/visit. I may pay some of tests and visits. I don't think the $200/year you quote is representative.

That said, I think the $6000 figure was actually government money spent. Canada has socialized healthcare and spends fewer tax dollars per person - and has a healthier populace.

That's kind of the point of the study.

The Remote Islands! Please modify that screen-disforming post!

My employer-based insurance plan for myself and my husband is approximately $2400/year. (I think I figured it out to be $2352.) On top of that I pay $10/prescription and $10/visit. I may pay some of tests and visits. I don't think the $200/year you quote is representative.

That said, I think the $6000 figure was actually government money spent. Canada has socialized healthcare and spends fewer tax dollars per person - and has a healthier populace.

That's kind of the point of the study.

I'd pay more if I were married/had dependent children, sure. I pay something like $19/month for medical (Humana, I believe) and an additional $6 or $7 per month for dental. Maybe I'm not typical, but my company has 30,000+ employees, so I figure I'm in a good-sized boat.

My dad pays a bit more as a gov't worker, but still under 500/yr with Kaiser Permenete and Delta Dental.. maybe you have Blue Cross or something? HMOs have never been a big problem to me.

Actually, Ralphy has more or less had to toss the third way based on response from Albertans, the feds, and the results of the reports that his government commissioned on the subject. He's obviously managed to eat his crow quietly enough that you haven't heard about it yet.
Forgive me if I don't count on it. Albertans had huge protests back when he passed Bill 11 a couple of years ago...even his most conservative supporters were up in arms against it and he didn't give a flying fark, and rammed it through anyway. I don't suddenly think he's going to back down now, just because he's on the out. Far from it.

The CAT scan clarified the extent of the condition. Antibiotics and diet are the treatment. Without the CAT scan, I would have had abdominal surgery to remove/resection part of my intestine and had a temporary cholostomy. Likely a week out of work-maybe more.
Instead, I missed a few hours only and avoided a needless surgery.

I like this system as a whole.Well, you'd have had the same treatment here, which leads me to believe you'd like the system here as well.

Let's neither of us live in Chile, okay?

I'd pay more if I were married/had dependent children, sure.

My coverage would be just about $1200/year if I covered only myself. We have excellent health, vision, dental coverage, because I think that that's one area you should get the best you can afford. (I had three options. If I went for the least expensive coverage, I'd be paying more like $1600/year for both of us or $800/year for just me - but I could end up owing a whole heck of a lot if something, God forbid, happened...)

Well, there are three provinces in Canada that have user fees, and Alberta is one of them. Right now my employer pays our family fees, but they would likely add up to about $1600 a year if we weren't below a certain income (if not more...I'm not actually sure what the amounts are, since I've always been either under the income level, or had them paid by my employer). Those user fees do not cover dental or vision, and there is no subsidy on prescriptions. I have additional health benefits through my work...but I pay for them, and my employer contributes a percentage.

Once I'm making a certain wage, and not getting benefits from an employer, I'll be paying a pretty hefty chunk of money to keep my family covered...in a system that is public.

Maybe we should move back to the NWT...