NationStates Jolt Archive

We all can believe in what we want, but it religion over-rated?
Is the bible, torah, or any other scripture just a fake?
Do we only believe in god because we are too scared and alone that we idolize something, or is God, Buddha, Christ, Holy Ghost, Divinity all real?

Moreover, do we create our reality? Does it seem logical to have a supreme power/powers ruling over us, or are we in our own land, as a whole, and it seems logical?
:eek:
Respond

Yes.

Again?

Sigh...

No kidding.

Or perhaps our reality is merely a state of mind. Maybe we are just a bunch of brains in vats, or even just one brain in a vat, connected up to a big computer running around like little mice to the amusement of our unseen alien overlords.
I prefer this state of mind:
Why bother trying to disprove what cant be disproven? You will only get a sore throat and a headache from argueing with those idiots that think differently than you.

What

See rule #1... (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=464525)

I am not concerning myself with my god, I am asking if the thought of some divinity is logical. It is an opinion.

Religion does tend to be overrated, but actual morality - as in, actually caring about people, not adhering to puritanical standards in one's personal life - tends to be underrated.

It is.

I find that churches are more overrated than a believe system itself

Indeed. The actual morality is often overlooked and religion is sometimes a convenient tool to use in politics. Just see the state of world politics. From the neverending crisis in the middle east (you can be damn sure religion will be brought up) to the Yasukuni shrine visits by Japan's PM. :(

Yes. Its the reson Im an atheist.

I am a buddhist

Karma anyone?

duh

So reality depends on how we see it?

I think we all act how we want to act, and that shapes who we are, and then you(who you want to be) judges the physical you.
Look at it this way: I belive what I want to believe, but I don't think what others think is wrong, because what they believe and live their lives by is the thing that will judge them.

http://www.theforumsite.com/images/galleries/mid_fccf0db64799ce0299a0ca7b417700b0.jpg

Wee religion threads!

True, true. I wonder why can't we all just get along?

What I want to know is: why all the attacks n reiligon all of a sudden? What has it done to you? I with the last post I read: I am Catholic but I dont mind what other people think. We'll find out when we die. Just would most atheists stop at us. How loud do we have to say this we dont care.

Every human society needs noble myths to hold together. Religion is just another one of them.

Religion? Mostly Useless.

USSNS: What I want to know is: why all the attacks n reiligon all of a sudden? What has it done to you? I with the last post I read: I am Catholic but I dont mind what other people think. We'll find out when we die. Just would most atheists stop at us. How loud do we have to say this we dont care.


ok, person, i don't have time to discuss all internet stuff, but I don't have time to tell you WE ALL DON"T BELIVE IN AN AFTERLIFE and WE ALL SHOULD RESPECT OTHERS.

R E S P E C T

ok, maybe it is up there

i really believe that faith is all that matters

What's over-rated?

A lot of it definitely is...

This thread wins the award for Most Anemic Thread I Have Yet Seen Today

What I want to know is: why all the attacks n reiligon all of a sudden? What has it done to you? I with the last post I read: I am Catholic but I dont mind what other people think. We'll find out when we die. Just would most atheists stop at us. How loud do we have to say this we dont care.

Just to let know, that that is an attack on reigion itself, in is own way... Atheism is just the belief that there is no god, or no gods, maybe a higher power, but no gods.

Besides most atheist are the ones who want to be left alone, considering they have to deal with christianity breathing down heir neck.

I personally believe that all religions have excellent points, though none are right. And the only reason for that is bcause they are an organized belief. They believe that they are right and others can go to hell, literally (well thats only christianity but yah). An unstructered belief system is much better because it can be use as a weapon of war. :mp5:

I belief hat one should become educated on the principles of all religions (if even possile) and then live by moral codes, like dont llie, kill, cheat o your spouse, be kind, generous, etc...

just be a good person and regardless of your ignorece of a higher power or what you believe ou will live a good life.

p.s. - if there is a god, Im ure he rewards good people with good intentions, even Gearge Bush (though he may be stupid im sure he means good), and not those who wait there whole life to be forgiveness for a lifes work of wrong. If there is a God he/she/it would not be so selfish as to restrict his/her/itself to those who believe he exists.

p.s.s. - sorry for above typo's

The sound of sheep.

Albanian: be-e be-e
Arabic (Algeria): baa baa
Catalan: beeee
Chinese (Mandarin): mieh mieh
Croatian: bee-hee
Danish: mæh
Dutch: bèèh
English: baaah
Esperanto: mek
Estonian: mää
Finnish: bäää bäää
French: bêêê
German: bähh, bähh
Hebrew: meeee meeee
Hindi: bhe:-bhe:
Hungarian: beeee
Icelandic: me
Italian: beeee
Japanese: mee
Korean: meeeee
Norwegian: bæ
Polish: meeeeee; be, be
Portuguese: meee meee
Russian: bee
Slovene: bee-bee
Spanish: bee
Swedish: bää
Turkish: me-e-e-eh, me-e-e-eh
Ukrainian: be-be
Vietnamese: be-hehehe

http://www.inkcinct.com.au/Web/CARTOONS/2005-310C--sheep's-back.gif

We all can believe in what we want, but it religion over-rated?
Is the bible, torah, or any other scripture just a fake?
Do we only believe in god because we are too scared and alone that we idolize something, or is God, Buddha, Christ, Holy Ghost, Divinity all real?

Moreover, do we create our reality? Does it seem logical to have a supreme power/powers ruling over us, or are we in our own land, as a whole, and it seems logical?
:eek:
Respond

Religion isn't about being scared. Religion is almost entirely a product of evolution. Yay irony!

Religion is overrated in much the same way that sex is overrated: the people that don't get it are the ones that wonder what all the fuss is about. And no, logical dissection of either activity will not tell you what's so great about it either.

No? Well, consider this then: who do you think would be more qualified to tell you about how great sex is: Alfred Kinsey or Ron Jeremy?

Not over rated
more like out dated.

Hey! I'm a poet.:cool:

See the line in my sig about deja poo.

Religion is overrated in much the same way that sex is overrated: the people that don't get it are the ones that wonder what all the fuss is about. And no, logical dissection of either activity will not tell you what's so great about it either.

No? Well, consider this then: who do you think would be more qualified to tell you about how great sex is: Alfred Kinsey or Ron Jeremy?

HORRID anaology. Logical discussion will quickly yield the reason that sex is, for humanity, such a thrill. We have an innate biological drive for procreation, and the act itself releases massive amounts of pleasurable chemicals in the brain. Tis not hard.

Religion, OTOH, is not so easily explained, nor is anything 'great' about it revealed by logical reasoning.

We all can believe in what we want, but it religion over-rated?
Is the bible, torah, or any other scripture just a fake?
Do we only believe in god because we are too scared and alone that we idolize something, or is God, Buddha, Christ, Holy Ghost, Divinity all real?

Moreover, do we create our reality? Does it seem logical to have a supreme power/powers ruling over us, or are we in our own land, as a whole, and it seems logical?
:eek:
Respond

Religion is indeed overrated. It is my belief that religion exists to offer people something to cling to because they are afraid of what comes next. They don't want eternal nothingness. I freely admit that I don't either. Its a scary thought. But I don't feel that I need to think there's some nice man in the sky who will look after me to be able to live my life.

And as to scriptures, I wouldn't call them fake, as such. They are, rather, generally, works of fiction. They are collections of stories created to try to help people lead better lives. It is only when people begin to take these stories as fact that trouble ocurs.

And we do not create reality, but our perspective defines our being, and how we see reality. It means that, while I believe there is one reality, so many people see it in so many different ways that it would be futile to try to sort out what is truly real.

What I want to know is: why all the attacks n reiligon all of a sudden? What has it done to you? I with the last post I read: I am Catholic but I dont mind what other people think. We'll find out when we die. Just would most atheists stop at us. How loud do we have to say this we dont care.

What attacks "all of a sudden?" Have you just started seeing attacks on religion? And look, I am an atheist, and am fine with leaving religion alone. But atheists are by far outnumbered by missionaries and evangelists and people who just want to convert others to their particular brand of worship. This leads to atheists having to defend their beliefs on an almost daily basis, often enough. Eventually, many will attack religion almost as a defense mechanism, or a refexive action.

I'll make you a deal. If all people stop trying to convert us, we'll stop attacking you so bloody much.

Religion has been under attack by many far left groups in the USA because it often harms their agenda. The banning of prayer from public schools, removal of the word "Christmas" from public schools, and effort to take God out of the pledge are examples. I believe that most Americans' sense of traditional morality comes from religion and the far left feels very threatened by that. Gay marriage, abortion, and secular humanism will never gain full support without tradtional protestant and Catholic beliefs which are held by many Americans being forgotten.

this is pure opinion that will recieve yes from those of no religion and a no from those who are involved in religion.

so basicly your question should not be if religion is over rated but rather "are you a willing member of a religion?"

Religion has a very positive role to play in society because it helps to explain the mysteries of life, gives people hope, and helps charitable organizations like no other force on the planet.

Religion has a very positive role to play in society because it helps to explain the mysteries of life, gives people hope, and helps charitable organizations like no other force on the planet.

It doesn't help to explain the mysteries of life. It tells people things, which I believe to be utter LIES, about shit that happens. No one knows if these things are true. I won't debate the hope thing, nor the charitable organizations thing, though that could be debated. However, remember also that religion has been the cause of, or at kleast justification for, some of the worst, bloodiest, and most atrocity-filled wars in history.

[QUOTE=Grape-eaters]It doesn't help to explain the mysteries of life. It tells people things, which I believe to be utter LIES, about shit that happens. No one knows if these things are true. QUOTE]

What sorts of things do you believe are lies?

A lie: A false statement deliberately presented as being true

what things are there that you know the religious are lying about?

[QUOTE=Grape-eaters]It doesn't help to explain the mysteries of life. It tells people things, which I believe to be utter LIES, about shit that happens. No one knows if these things are true. QUOTE]

What sorts of things do you believe are lies?

A lie: A false statement deliberately presented as being true

what things are there that you know the religious are lying about?

I do not claim that I know the things religious people say to be lies. If you will read my statement, I said "I believe [these things] to be utter LIES..." Believe, not know. I am an atheist, and believe that there is no god. Therefore, I believe the statement that "God exists," as made by most religions, is a lie

[QUOTE=Barrygoldwater]

I do not claim that I know the things religious people say to be lies. If you will read my statement, I said "I believe [these things] to be utter LIES..." Believe, not know. I am an atheist, and believe that there is no god. Therefore, I believe the statement that "God exists," as made by most religions, is a lie


But to lie you must by definition know that what you are saying is untrue.
How then, can the religious be lying?

[QUOTE=Grape-eaters]


But to lie you must by definition know that what you are saying is untrue.
How then, can the religious be lying?

Not necessarily. If one can believe something to be true, then surely one can believe something to be false? And surely you admit that one can believe something to be true? After all, the...Catholics, for instance, do not know that God exists. They only believe it to be true. And if one can believe something to be false, but another believes that something to be true, then one must believe the other to be lying. Or at least misdirected in their beliefs.

[QUOTE=Barrygoldwater]

Not necessarily. If one can believe something to be true, then surely one can believe something to be false? And surely you admit that one can believe something to be true? After all, the...Catholics, for instance, do not know that God exists. They only believe it to be true. And if one can believe something to be false, but another believes that something to be true, then one must believe the other to be lying. Or at least misdirected in their beliefs.

a lie is a false statement deliberately presented as being true. To lie you must have an evil intent. Do you really believe that Catholics really don't believe that God is real but are making it up to fool people? You are confusing two different concepts. One is lying and the other is disagreeing. Just because two groups come to different conclusions does not mean that one is spreading falsehoods with malice. That is just not logical. I may believe that chocolate is better than vanilla. You may believe that vanilla is better than chocolate. Does that mean that one of us is spreading a falsehood on purpose? Of course not. I believe that you are misdirected in your belief that there is no God. For me to come to the conclusion that you are lying I would have to know that you secretly believe that there is a God. I cannot and will not make that assumption therefore I do not call you a liar. get it?

What attacks "all of a sudden?" Have you just started seeing attacks on religion? And look, I am an atheist, and am fine with leaving religion alone. But atheists are by far outnumbered by missionaries and evangelists and people who just want to convert others to their particular brand of worship. This leads to atheists having to defend their beliefs on an almost daily basis, often enough. Eventually, many will attack religion almost as a defense mechanism, or a refexive action.

I'll make you a deal. If all people stop trying to convert us, we'll stop attacking you so bloody much.
Having to defend your beliefs daily? Are the Christians really that bad where you are from? I live deep in the heart of Texas, and yet in all my time of living here, only a few times has my life been interupted by people trying to convert me. And you say you are "outnumbered" by these people, when in reality most Christians are not trying to convert you. The aggressive converters are in fact only a very small minority of the Christian population. So give me an example of how Christians tried to convert you in four of the last seven days, since you have said that it is almost a "daily" occurence.

Atheists often forget that religion has provided us with our values of politeness and common decency that we have today. If it wasn't for religion, we would still have the caveman mentality that would permit us to attack someone who ate something that we might have wanted to eat. Yes, atheists can be moral, but religion can turn someone who would otherwise be a thug into someone who had dignity and treats others with respect.

So please, do not continue to group all Christians with an obnoxious minority of aggressive converters.

True, true. I wonder why can't we all just get along?

Didn't I say this earlier? I hope this discussion doesn't end up being a fight.

If we keep arguing we can go on till the cows come home.

[QUOTE=Grape-eaters]

a lie is a false statement deliberately presented as being true. To lie you must have an evil intent. Do you really believe that Catholics really don't believe that God is real but are making it up to fool people? You are confusing two different concepts. One is lying and the other is disagreeing. Just because two groups come to different conclusions does not mean that one is spreading falsehoods with malice. That is just not logical. I may believe that chocolate is better than vanilla. You may believe that vanilla is better than chocolate. Does that mean that one of us is spreading a falsehood on purpose? Of course not. I believe that you are misdirected in your belief that there is no God. For me to come to the conclusion that you are lying I would have to know that you secretly believe that there is a God. I cannot and will not make that assumption therefore I do not call you a liar. get it?

You don't have to know the statement is false to tell a lie. Or so I believe. And I would disagree entirely about the evil intent bit. What about a boy who knows any great shock will kill his frail mother, and loves her very much, and so refuses to admit to her that he is gay? I'd call that lying with good intent. A lie to prevent a loved one's death.

Okay though, I can dig what you are getting at there. Perhaps "Lies" was not the best choice of words, but most people would have read it the way it was meant to be read, as simply a reaffirmation that I am indeed an atheist, and that I disagree with religion most violently.

Anyway, was there a deeper point to any of this, relating to the thread topic? Or did you just disagree with my word choice?

A white lie isn't it?

[QUOTE=Barrygoldwater]

You don't have to know the statement is false to tell a lie. Or so I believe. And I would disagree entirely about the evil intent bit. What about a boy who knows any great shock will kill his frail mother, and loves her very much, and so refuses to admit to her that he is gay? I'd call that lying with good intent. A lie to prevent a loved one's death.

Okay though, I can dig what you are getting at there. Perhaps "Lies" was not the best choice of words, but most people would have read it the way it was meant to be read, as simply a reaffirmation that I am indeed an atheist, and that I disagree with religion most violently.

Anyway, was there a deeper point to any of this, relating to the thread topic? Or did you just disagree with my word choice?


The deeper meaning is that the religious are being increasingly persecuted in America. Look up the word lie, by the way, you will see your word choice was in error. Sacred traditions that have always been part of America are being attacked by the minority of athiests. They assume that athiesm should be on equal footing with religion in America when this has never been the case. Why try to tear down Christmas, school prayer, the divinity of Christ, and traditional values? I believe that they have played a positive role in the overall history of our nation, which has a strong Christian culture and heritage.

Freedom of religion or freedom from religion?

Having to defend your beliefs daily? Are the Christians really that bad where you are from? I live deep in the heart of Texas, and yet in all my time of living here, only a few times has my life been interupted by people trying to convert me. And you say you are "outnumbered" by these people, when in reality most Christians are not trying to convert you. The aggressive converters are in fact only a very small minority of the Christian population. So give me an example of how Christians tried to convert you in four of the last seven days, since you have said that it is almost a "daily" occurence.

Atheists often forget that religion has provided us with our values of politeness and common decency that we have today. If it wasn't for religion, we would still have the caveman mentality that would permit us to attack someone who ate something that we might have wanted to eat. Yes, atheists can be moral, but religion can turn someone who would otherwise be a thug into someone who had dignity and treats others with respect.

So please, do not continue to group all Christians with an obnoxious minority of aggressive converters.

Yesterday, there was a dude who tried o convert me to catholicism by thrying to put the fear of hell into me.

The day before, outside of school, there was a Jehovah's Witness handing out bibles and telling the high-schoolers (myself included) to convert.

And six days ago, a man came knocking at my door, "spreading the word of Christ." I admit I didn't answer it, but he dropped some pamphlets in my mailbox.

Is that enough examples?

I admit though, it has been an unusually busy week in terms of that.

And hey, I agree, the obnoxious converters are a very small minority. However, The religious population of the world is so incredibly huge, compared to the atheistic population that that minor percentage becomes a large number of people. I believe, though I will admit that I cannot support this, that the world's population of people who attempt to convert others is larger than the worlds population of atheists.

HORRID anaology. Logical discussion will quickly yield the reason that sex is, for humanity, such a thrill. We have an innate biological drive for procreation, and the act itself releases massive amounts of pleasurable chemicals in the brain. Tis not hard.

Religion, OTOH, is not so easily explained, nor is anything 'great' about it revealed by logical reasoning.

That's where the problem lies right there: distancing one's self from the issue. Of course if one is going to objectively observe anything, there's not going to be seen any value in it at all. The real value comes in closing the gap between the observer and the experience until there is no difference at all.

Of course, one would have to have faith that it is worth experiencing to experience it and no amount of logical discussion is going to bring that about.


Oh, since there seems to be some discussion about evangelism, here's what I found is the best way to deal with that: share your beliefs with them. It's just one of those things: if they expect you to respect their beliefs and patiently listen to them while they explain them, then it behooves them to extend you the same courtesy. If they don't respect your beliefs, then there is no reason why you should respect theirs either.

The bible thumpers. I encountered such people a few times. I don't approve such methods because how can you force someone to convert and at the same time putting fear? Wasn't there suppose to be no compulsion?

I think that it takes a lot of faith to deny the first hand sources that are provided in the new testament. I am a history teacher and I am fully aware that many other events that we take for granted in history have far less documentation and first hand witnesses than the miracles of Jesus Christ. I was an athiest until it dawned on me that this is true. It takes a great deal of faith to deny Christ.

Freedom of religion or freedom from religion?

the first Amendment states that Congress shall pass no law respecting the establishment of religion or denying free exercise thereof.

This amendment only talks about laws passed by Congress. From of and from religion do not exist outside of that realm in my opinon of American law.

[QUOTE=Grape-eaters]


The deeper meaning is that the religious are being increasingly persecuted in America. Look up the word lie, by the way, you will see your word choice was in error. Sacred traditions that have always been part of America are being attacked by the minority of athiests. They assume that athiesm should be on equal footing with religion in America when this has never been the case. Why try to tear down Christmas, school prayer, the divinity of Christ, and traditional values? I believe that they have played a positive role in the overall history of our nation, which has a strong Christian culture and heritage.

Many others would disagree with your last point. And while it may be true that atheists have not been on equal footing with CHRISTIANS in America, neither have others of any other religion. And why shouldn't we be on an equal footing with christians? Just because we haven't been in the past? Because it is "traditional?" You must realise that some traditions are just fucking stupid and need to be trown out. And hey, your "traditional values" [I]may[I] have been positive, but they NO LONGER ARE. They promote intolerance and hatred. Although, I admit, I'm all for traditional values. I hope humans die out. Anyway, school prayer is prejudiced against other religions, unless you have prayers for ALL religions, which is ridiculous, as it would take days. Remember, one of the traditional values of America is separation of church and state. Public schools are part of the state.

And I, personally, have got nothing against Chrstmas. I think that whole thing is a bit ridiculous. And what does the divinity of Christ have to do with anything? That has nothing to do with America. But hey, some people disagree with the idea. And feel they should provide the populace with the opposing view, so that people know their choices in terms of beliefs.

I think that it takes a lot of faith to deny the first hand sources that are provided in the new testament. I am a history teacher and I am fully aware that many other events that we take for granted in history have far less documentation and first hand witnesses than the miracles of Jesus Christ. I was an athiest until it dawned on me that this is true. It takes a great deal of faith to deny Christ.

So, you take the New Testament as fact?

Well, okay, but nonetheless, because some dude wandered around telling people to be cool with each other, and convinced some people that he could do miracles, and was divine (something that Christ himself never claimed, if I recall correctly), and remember, these tales may well be at least embellished, if nothing else, from all of this, you believew that there is some man in the sky who knows everything and watches everything we do, and created everything? Seems like quite the leap of faith to me.

[QUOTE=Barrygoldwater]

Many others would disagree with your last point. And while it may be true that atheists have not been on equal footing with CHRISTIANS in America, neither have others of any other religion. And why shouldn't we be on an equal footing with christians? Just because we haven't been in the past? Because it is "traditional?" You must realise that some traditions are just fucking stupid and need to be trown out. And hey, your "traditional values" [I]may[I] have been positive, but they NO LONGER ARE. They promote intolerance and hatred. Although, I admit, I'm all for traditional values. I hope humans die out. Anyway, school prayer is prejudiced against other religions, unless you have prayers for ALL religions, which is ridiculous, as it would take days. Remember, one of the traditional values of America is separation of church and state. Public schools are part of the state.

And I, personally, have got nothing against Chrstmas. I think that whole thing is a bit ridiculous. And what does the divinity of Christ have to do with anything? That has nothing to do with America. But hey, some people disagree with the idea. And feel they should provide the populace with the opposing view, so that people know their choices in terms of beliefs.

Seperation of church and state is not a traditional American value. It was not even introduced into law until a 1962 supreme court decision. It is found nowhere in the constitution or in law. It is a slanderous activist interpretation of law. Atheism should never be on equal footing with Christianity in America because of one simple fact. More than 75% of us are Christians. Why should the 25% that are non Christians be equal to the 75% that are? That would be giving the non- christians 3 times as much say as they should. You hope humanity will die out? lovely.

So, you take the New Testament as fact?

Well, okay, but nonetheless, because some dude wandered around telling people to be cool with each other, and convinced some people that he could do miracles, and was divine (something that Christ himself never claimed, if I recall correctly), and remember, these tales may well be at least embellished, if nothing else, from all of this, you believew that there is some man in the sky who knows everything and watches everything we do, and created everything? Seems like quite the leap of faith to me.

keep in mind that this "some dude" who " wandered around" claimed to be the son of God. He performed miracles in front of hundreds of non-believing on-lookers on dozens of days. He forsaw his own death and rising from the grave. He fulfilled prophesy and was aware of it.There are more sources ( primary ones) to back up his divinity than there are about other figures of the time. Only a very closed minded person would totaly discount all of this. I think that it takes enormous faith to believe that the Universe formed randomly, that Christ was a con artist "dude", or that the common thread of a belief in the supernatural in every culture is a shared mass dillusion.

[QUOTE=Grape-eaters]

Seperation of church and state is not a traditional American value. It was not even introduced into law until a 1962 supreme court decision. It is found nowhere in the constitution or in law. It is a slanderous activist interpretation of law. Atheism should never be on equal footing with Christianity in America because of one simple fact. More than 75% of us are Christians. Why should the 25% that are non Christians be equal to the 75% that are? That would be giving the non- christians 3 times as much say as they should. You hope humanity will die out? lovely.

No. Because religion is out of government, atheists would have no more say in any area in which the amount of followers they have does not matter than christians. Really this is like saying, because black people are a minority in this country, white people should have more say in everything. Or any non-majority ethnicity.

Dude, it's the Flying Spaghetti Monster. End Of Story.
Seperation of church and state is not a traditional American value. It was not even introduced into law until a 1962 supreme court decision. It is found nowhere in the constitution or in law. It is a slanderous activist interpretation of law. Atheism should never be on equal footing with Christianity in America because of one simple fact. More than 75% of us are Christians. Why should the 25% that are non Christians be equal to the 75% that are? That would be giving the non- christians 3 times as much say as they should. You hope humanity will die out? lovely.

Separation of church and state is actually enshrined in the First Amendment. "Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion". That means that the government cannot regulate religion, cannot endorse one over another, etc. You're an idiot if you think that the first words of the First Amendment aren't part of the Constitution.

And the reason we can't have a tyranny by majority is because that's the mentality that the Third Reich used.

And if the government were to be a theocracy, it might have different interpretations of Christianity than you. And guess what? If you disagree, you get burned at the stake.

I am Christian as well, but I take Jesus' message of tolerance, love, and equality to mean that we shouldn't oppress people because we disagree with them. Now, you may think that "Love your neighbor" means "Stick your personal perversion of what I say down their throats 'til they choke on it", but seriously.

Dude, it's the Flying Spaghetti Monster. End Of Story.


Separation of church and state is actually enshrined in the First Amendment. "Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion". That means that the government cannot regulate religion, cannot endorse one over another, etc. You're an idiot if you think that the first words of the First Amendment aren't part of the Constitution.

And the reason we can't have a tyranny by majority is because that's the mentality that the Third Reich used.

And if the government were to be a theocracy, it might have different interpretations of Christianity than you. And guess what? If you disagree, you get burned at the stake.

I am Christian as well, but I take Jesus' message of tolerance, love, and equality to mean that we shouldn't oppress people because we disagree with them. Now, you may think that "Love your neighbor" means "Stick your personal perversion of what I say down their throats 'til they choke on it", but seriously.


Now that's something I agree on!

keep in mind that this "some dude" who " wandered around" claimed to be the son of God. He performed miracles in front of hundreds of non-believing on-lookers on dozens of days. He forsaw his own death and rising from the grave. He fulfilled prophesy and was aware of it.There are more sources ( primary ones) to back up his divinity than there are about other figures of the time. Only a very closed minded person would totaly discount all of this. I think that it takes enormous faith to believe that the Universe formed randomly, that Christ was a con artist "dude", or that the common thread of a belief in the supernatural in every culture is a shared mass dillusion.

Belief in the supernatural is not a "mass delusion" shared by every culture, it is a way of explaining things that that society does not understand, such as (in days long past) the causes of lightning, rain, and other strange seeming natural events. And hey man, it takes a lot for me to believe that some dude can defy the basic laws of nature (or what I consider to be the basic laws of nature). To me, because I believe in the theory of multiple universes, and ecause of the uincredible size of the universe, I believe just about anything can, and will, happen at some point. Including life.

And there are many primary sources, but Jesus was a powerful figure, and preached a good philosophy. So, he did indeed say he was the son of god? XCould you give me a quiote where he said that?

And as to his divinity and so on, like I said, tales, particularly ones written by people anxious to put this man on a pedestal and convert others, are often embellished.

[QUOTE=Barrygoldwater]

No. Because religion is out of government, atheists would have no more say in any area in which the amount of followers they have does not matter than christians. Really this is like saying, because black people are a minority in this country, white people should have more say in everything. Or any non-majority ethnicity.

But they do. If 75% of people are religious Christians and 25% are not why should the two groups have equal representation?

Dude, it's the Flying Spaghetti Monster. End Of Story.


Separation of church and state is actually enshrined in the First Amendment. "Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion". That means that the government cannot regulate religion, cannot endorse one over another, etc. You're an idiot if you think that the first words of the First Amendment aren't part of the Constitution..

First of all don't insult me. It lowers the level of debate. I will not name call you. But look. The first Amendment only talks about laws that Congress passes. That has nothing to do with any other law not passed by Congress, the decorations of a court building, or my students praying before a 5 k race.

But they do. If 75% of people are religious Christians and 25% are not why should the two groups have equal representation?

No they don't. And equal representation? No. Because in any area where number of followers does not matter, religion is not in the equation. So, in any field where either gets representation, christianity gets more, because they have more members.

Belief in the supernatural is not a "mass delusion" shared by every culture, it is a way of explaining things that that society does not understand, such as (in days long past) the causes of lightning, rain, and other strange seeming natural events. And hey man, it takes a lot for me to believe that some dude can defy the basic laws of nature (or what I consider to be the basic laws of nature). To me, because I believe in the theory of multiple universes, and ecause of the uincredible size of the universe, I believe just about anything can, and will, happen at some point. Including life.

And there are many primary sources, but Jesus was a powerful figure, and preached a good philosophy. So, he did indeed say he was the son of god? XCould you give me a quiote where he said that?

And as to his divinity and so on, like I said, tales, particularly ones written by people anxious to put this man on a pedestal and convert others, are often embellished.

First hand sources become "tales". Give me a break.

Jesus never claimed to be God. I do not claim that he was. I believe that he was the son of God who came to Earth as man.

No they don't. And equal representation? No. Because in any area where number of followers does not matter, religion is not in the equation. So, in any field where either gets representation, christianity gets more, because they have more members.

law of probability.

First hand sources become "tales". Give me a break.

Jesus never claimed to be God. I do not claim that he was. I believe that he was the son of God who came to Earth as man.

If you look back, you did say he claimed to be the son of god. And yes, First-hand sources become tales. People embellish, and the compilers of the Bible might well have embellished further. Just because they claim to be primary sources does not mean they are entirely true, or correct.

[QUOTE=Grape-eaters]If you look back, you did say he claimed to be the son of god. QUOTE]

JOHN 3:16-17 NKJ
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

Christ claims to be the son of God. I can give you the context surrounding it if you give me a few moments.

law of probability.

What?

[QUOTE=Grape-eaters]If you look back, you did say he claimed to be the son of god. QUOTE]

JOHN 3:16-17 NKJ
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

Christ claims to be the son of God. I can give you the context surrounding it if you give me a few moments.

I dunno. Looks to me like that is John claiming Christ is the son of God.

I'm talking about Christ himself saying he is the son of god.

I dunno that even HE thought he was the son of god. Just a cool dude, trying to help people. Then others idolized him, and turned him into that.

[QUOTE=Barrygoldwater]

I dunno. Looks to me like that is John claiming Christ is the son of God.

I'm talking about Christ himself saying he is the son of god.

I dunno that even HE thought he was the son of god. Just a cool dude, trying to help people. Then others idolized him, and turned him into that.

19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly that I am of the Father.

26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

[QUOTE=Grape-eaters]

19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly that I am of the Father.

26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

Okay. Cool. Thanks. I could argue that he doesn't necessarily mean that he is God's son, but I won't.

You see, reasonable people can have differences of opinion without getting nasty. A first for this forum! The truth is that we all must sort things out for ourselves and do it in the rational way that suits us best. That we can agree on.

You see, reasonable people can have differences of opinion without getting nasty. A first for this forum! The truth is that we all must sort things out for ourselves and do it in the rational way that suits us best. That we can agree on.

I would rather get nasty, but I need sleep. Tired.

And I do agree that we must sort our own shit out rationally, but believe that religion, by its very nature, is irrational.

I would rather get nasty, but I need sleep. Tired.

And I do agree that we must sort our own shit out rationally, but believe that religion, by its very nature, is irrational.

Well, there is where we part ways. Have a good night.

Well, there is where we part ways. Have a good night.

And a good night to you as well.

But keep in mind, religion requires faith, ad faith is belief in something which cannot be proven. This is irrational.

And a good night to you as well.

But keep in mind, religion requires faith, ad faith is belief in something which cannot be proven. This is irrational.

Faith: Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

It may or may not be rational depending on what you apply it to and what facts you choose to consider.

Look at all these terrorists blowing up themselves just so they can please their gods, which may or may not exist. You tell me religion isn't overrated! I go to Youth Group sometimes, but I go there so I can be a more kinder and better person, not neccessarily because I am a Christian.

Look at all these terrorists blowing up themselves just so they can please their gods, which may or may not exist. You tell me religion isn't overrated! I go to Youth Group sometimes, but I go there so I can be a more kinder and better person, not neccessarily because I am a Christian.

Terrorists are not following any particular religion. You can tell this by an elementary level reading of the texts of Islam. Religion brings more good to society than any other force on Earth.

Creation is just too incredible to happen on it's own. Jus think about how incredible it really is. And how strange it would be if we had no soul..."I think, therefore I am..." And EVERYTHING according to science has a cause-and-effect. No matter what you do, keep tracing and God is an inevitible discovery. Religion can be bad and good. I'm not a paticular fan, or enemy of any religion, but the Muslim-terrorists (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/waffen/violent-smiley-104.gif) in the Middle-East sure are raising some hell.

Terrorists are not following any particular religion. You can tell this by an elementary level reading of the texts of Islam. Religion brings more good to society than any other force on Earth.
Agreed. Christ was by far the most influencial person in history.

Islam is a religion of peace. Too bad so many "muslims" don't follow it.

Islam is a religion of peace. Too bad so many "muslims" don't follow it.
Er, maybe it is. Mohammad was a general wasn't he? And doesn't the Koran say "spread the faith by war, and conquest"?

Does it? Could my liberal education have betrayed me? I am shocked.

christianity is A religeon. NOT the begining and end of the concept. i really wish people would not insist on muddying this distinction. (and yes it IS A religeon and not any damd thing else, and no i'm not, nor do i choose to be, a member of any flavour of it, nor of anything closely resembling it)

expecting what is greater then our selves, or at least nontangable, to begin and end with what anyone thinks they know about it, is, to call it over rated, a polite understatement.

that doesn't meant there can't be or arn't all sorts of friendly harmless and well meaning nontangable entities. i personaly know of, something big, friendly and nontangable. i neither know nor care if it is infallable, one or many, or whether or not it creatied ourselves, what surrounds us, or anything else. that it loves us and wishes us well is, i find, entirely sufficient.

=^^=
.../\...

Religion is a crutch and the opiate of the masses... or something to that effect :)

Just a few things...

To return to the OP, yes, I do find religion to be over-rated because, in essence, I think of anything that requires people to suspend their natural inquisitive and critical impulses to be extremely dangerous. 'Faith', which is a professed requirement of all religions that I have hitherto encountered, is not only belief without proof, it is belief without the search for proof, and leads the followers to be indoctrinated into whatever mad ideas the writers of their holy books, or those who claim to represent their beliefs, are spouting. Most of what is wrong with religion, in my opinion, could be solved if people were prepared to thoroughly study their holy books, question their priests, and challenge their own philosophy, but if that were to happen, I'd be greatly surprised if most world religions didn't have far fewer adherants as a result. This doesn't only apply to religions, but the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century, to which I draw attention because they have consistently been used by antisecularists as examples of 'atheist states'. To say this is, of course, to miss the point - Soviet Russia and the PRC had their gods, their names were Josef Stalin and Mao Zedong.

With regard to political representation of christians and non-christians, to say that the figures are 75% to 25% does not mean that in practice, the christians are limited to 75% of power. In a basic plurality system, 75% support in real terms would give a much greater majority within a Parliament to the party with that proportion of the vote.

Incidentally, Barrygoldwater, as a history teacher you should know to be dubious of sources which were essentially political propaganda. A quick look at the temporal forces at work in Judea at that time show why things turned out the way they did: the country was in the grip of a military occupation that was importing a foreign religion; the memory of certain events on the Masada mountain was still fresh in the public mind, people were positively expecting a messiah to turn up. It wouldn't take much for a philosopher opposed to the Roman state and its Jewish client kings to decide to buy into that.

Finally, the argument put forward regarding creation is self defeating. If all effects have a cause, and we assume that we can trace causes back to a god, then we reach a contradiction, because that god too must have a cause, a greater creator, and that creator in turn must have a creator, and so on. Therefore, the only way for there to have been a god is for it to always have existed, but then again, would it not be just as valid to say that what this god is purported to have created, the universe, has always been, and cut out the middle man? In fact that would be more valid, as the universe can be perceived, whereas a god cannot.

Gay marriage, abortion, and secular humanism will never gain full support without tradtional protestant and Catholic beliefs which are held by many Americans being forgotten.
Your namesake supported abortion when he was alive.

These things have gained acceptance in Europe, where Catholic and Protestant beliefs have not been forgotten.

It doesn't help to explain the mysteries of life. It tells people things, which I believe to be utter LIES, about shit that happens. No one knows if these things are true. I won't debate the hope thing, nor the charitable organizations thing, though that could be debated.
That's the point, the things religion says don't need to be true. Tbey are myths that serve the purpose of holding society together (identified by Neitzsche) and give people hope in hard times (identified by Marx). The sheer volume of religious charities working in the world today speaks for itself.

However, remember also that religion has been the cause of, or at kleast justification for, some of the worst, bloodiest, and most atrocity-filled wars in history.
Only in a minority of religious cases. I would even say that religion generally pacifies people, rather than causes them to be warlike.

Atheists often forget that religion has provided us with our values of politeness and common decency that we have today. If it wasn't for religion, we would still have the caveman mentality that would permit us to attack someone who ate something that we might have wanted to eat. Yes, atheists can be moral, but religion can turn someone who would otherwise be a thug into someone who had dignity and treats others with respect.
Indeed. Atheism is the ultimate consequence of Christianity and most atheists are post-Christians.

They assume that athiesm should be on equal footing with religion in America when this has never been the case.
Atheism can be on an equal footing with religion in America. They don't have to come into conflict. Is it not a central tenet of American politics, that citizens have the freedom to be religious or not religious?

More than 75% of us are Christians. Why should the 25% that are non Christians be equal to the 75% that are? That would be giving the non- christians 3 times as much say as they should.
Not at all. One man, one vote. That is why they should be equal. You're advocating persecution of atheists. You're in favour of a government far bigger than Goldwater was.