NationStates Jolt Archive

. . .your boyfriend Jeb Bush opened up a faith based prison in Florida. Now, I don't agree with a MANDATORY faith system in a prison under the seperation of church and state, but if an inmate wishes to engage in religous rites and rituals (mass, daily prayer, access to priests and rabbis, etc) should they have a state sponsered/funded OPTION to have their religous beliefs and faith sustained? (i.e. chapels on prison grounds, visits to holy places if necessary, etc)

I say - somewhat ironically - hell no. They're in prison. No society, no love, and no faith. You're being punised, guy or gal.

DISCUSS!!!!:D

What the fuck what the fuck what the fuck. Why must they get faith involved? WHY?

What the fuck what the fuck what the fuck. Why must they get faith involved? WHY?
Because Jesus will lead them down the rightous path, I dont see what the problem is. Without religion these people will remain evil.

I agree to have been put into prison they must have broken some of the rules which are set down by most religions, therefore they have 'sined' and as such should be punished by the removal of the said religon (if that make sence).
Then again if they develop religion in prison then yeah I thik they should have the abilty to practice it (it should help with reabilitation after all)

Because Jesus will lead them down the rightous path, I dont see what the problem is. Without religion these people will remain evil.

Yeah lets ignore the fact that most evil things were done on the basis of religion. Crusades, Witch hunts, Taliban...

Then again if they develop religion in prison then yeah I thik they should have the abilty to practice it (it should help with reabilitation after all)
What if it's one of those women who drown their kids in the tub before the devil takes them? Religion wouldn't be my first choice of treatment for them.

. . .your boyfriend Jeb Bush opened up a faith based prison in Florida. Now, I don't agree with a MANDATORY faith system in a prison under the seperation of church and state, but if an inmate wishes to engage in religous rites and rituals (mass, daily prayer, access to priests and rabbis, etc) should they have a state sponsered/funded OPTION to have their religous beliefs and faith sustained? (i.e. chapels on prison grounds, visits to holy places if necessary, etc)

I say - somewhat ironically - hell no. They're in prison. No society, no love, and no faith. You're being punised, guy or gal.
Anyone who wants to see a greater emphasis on rehabilitation shouldn't oppose this as an option. IMHO, we should try anything and everything to reduce the number of people in prision and increase the numbers who become productive members of society. If "faith-based prisons" somehow help us do that, I'm all for them.

I say seperate church and state, in all respects. Crosses over doors to swearing on the bible to God in the pledge of allegiance: it all got to go. It is, after all a founding principle of the democratic world which virtually every democratic nation ignores. . .I mean, look at canada: "God keep our land. . ." no need of it. no need of it at all.

Also, for some reason that would take too much typing to explain, I think in some cases shoving religon down the throats of people who might not want it could hinder rehab, to say the least.

Yeah lets ignore the fact that most evil things were done on the basis of religion. Crusades, Witch hunts, Taliban...
The Holocaust, Hiroshima, Nagazaki, Communist witch hunts, Rwanda...

Religion doesn't kill people... People kill people.

. . .your boyfriend Jeb Bush opened up a faith based prison in Florida. Now, I don't agree with a MANDATORY faith system in a prison under the seperation of church and state, but if an inmate wishes to engage in religous rites and rituals (mass, daily prayer, access to priests and rabbis, etc) should they have a state sponsered/funded OPTION to have their religous beliefs and faith sustained? (i.e. chapels on prison grounds, visits to holy places if necessary, etc)

I say - somewhat ironically - hell no. They're in prison. No society, no love, and no faith. You're being punised, guy or gal.

DISCUSS!!!!:D
I don't think religious beliefs deserve special treatment. Prisoners should not be allowed special free time for "religious" activities, unless they are equally permitted to use such free time for non-religious activities. Special meals should not be provided for "religious" reasons, unless secular dietary choices are equally available. Religious personal items should not be treated any differently than non-religious personal items; if prisoners aren't allowed to own fiction novels, then they shouldn't be allowed Bibles or other religious texts either. Dress restrictions should include religious garments exactly as they include secular garments; if prisoners aren't allowed to wear hats, then no religious caps or head coverings should be permitted.

And, of course, no state money should be spent on any religious materials or structures, whether in prisons or anywhere else.

. . .your boyfriend Jeb Bush opened up a faith based prison in Florida. Now, I don't agree with a MANDATORY faith system in a prison under the seperation of church and state, but if an inmate wishes to engage in religous rites and rituals (mass, daily prayer, access to priests and rabbis, etc) should they have a state sponsered/funded OPTION to have their religous beliefs and faith sustained? (i.e. chapels on prison grounds, visits to holy places if necessary, etc)

I say - somewhat ironically - hell no. They're in prison. No society, no love, and no faith. You're being punised, guy or gal.

DISCUSS!!!!:D

I think they should have the option of getting nailed to a cross. :)

Because Jesus will lead them down the rightous path, I dont see what the problem is. Without religion these people will remain evil.

Except for, you know, not.

http://www.slate.com/id/2086617/
http://www.leaderu.com/humanities/johnson.html

The Holocaust, Hiroshima, Nagazaki, Communist witch hunts, Rwanda...

Religion doesn't kill people... People kill people.
damn striat

Religion doesn't kill people... People kill people.

Right, under the assumption that God wants them to.

I think they should have the option of getting nailed to a cross. :)

Nicely done, sir. Nicely done.;)

. . .your boyfriend Jeb Bush opened up a faith based prison in Florida. Now, I don't agree with a MANDATORY faith system in a prison under the seperation of church and state, but if an inmate wishes to engage in religous rites and rituals (mass, daily prayer, access to priests and rabbis, etc) should they have a state sponsered/funded OPTION to have their religous beliefs and faith sustained? (i.e. chapels on prison grounds, visits to holy places if necessary, etc)

Wouldn't that be "cruel and unusual punishment"?

. . .your boyfriend Jeb Bush opened up a faith based prison in Florida. Now, I don't agree with a MANDATORY faith system in a prison under the seperation of church and state, but if an inmate wishes to engage in religous rites and rituals (mass, daily prayer, access to priests and rabbis, etc) should they have a state sponsered/funded OPTION to have their religous beliefs and faith sustained? (i.e. chapels on prison grounds, visits to holy places if necessary, etc)

I say - somewhat ironically - hell no. They're in prison. No society, no love, and no faith. You're being punised, guy or gal.

DISCUSS!!!!:DI'd love to see them organize a trip to Mecca for islamic inmates...

The Holocaust, Hiroshima, Nagazaki, Communist witch hunts, Rwanda...

Religion doesn't kill people... People kill people.
Sure. But then again, racism doesn't kill people, people kill people. Yet I don't see anybody advocating racism-based programs for inmate rehabilitation.

Sure. But then again, racism doesn't kill people, people kill people. Yet I don't see anybody advocating racism-based programs for inmate rehabilitation.

I thought every prison was built on a racism - based program?

God. . .that wasn't near as funny or clever as I thought it would be. Ifeel so. . .

. . .ashamed.

From the news I read about the USA, even juvenile delinquents younger than 10 are sometimes considered incorrigible, and adult prisons are led on the principle that people are there to be punished, not rehabilitated and prepared for life after prison, even if they originally were jailed as juveniles...

Do I have a completely wrong picture of the US prison system?

Sevenglasses']From the news I read about the USA, even juvenile delinquents younger than 10 are sometimes considered incorrigible, and adult prisons are led on the principle that people are there to be punished, not rehabilitated and prepared for life after prison, even if they originally were jailed as juveniles...

Do I have a completely wrong picture of the US prison system?

well. . .here's my favorite story about the US judicary/penal system:

Parapalegic, in a wheelchair. Alabama. Has an ounce of weed in the pouch in the back of his wheelchair. the cops find it. Turns out the parapalegic lives in a house with his widowed mother. He suffers from crippling chronic pain. Here's what he gets:

Life in prison PLUS sixteen years. true story, which gets better: the sixteen years was for the gun in his house - unloaded - that belonged to his dead father, who was killled in the line of duty as a police officer. They also tried desperately to seize house and all.

Now, they sent him off to prison, where he developed a life threatening illness and the prison simply did not have the facilities to deal with him. An embarressed warden managed to get him out.

NO PREVIOUS RECORD WHATSOEVER. Use that story to get some answers.

The Holocaust, Hiroshima, Nagazaki, Communist witch hunts, Rwanda...

Religion doesn't kill people... People kill people.

Wrong. Ninjas kill people.

Back to the point:I see nothing wrong with having chaples or mosqes or whatever on prison grounds. Freedom of religion, after all. Even prisons should uphold the constitution.

Because Jesus will lead them down the rightous path, I dont see what the problem is. Without religion these people will remain evil.
I've placed a curse on you from my evil lair.

The Holocaust, Hiroshima, Nagazaki, Communist witch hunts, Rwanda...

Religion doesn't kill people... People kill people.
Ironically, Adolf Hitler believed he was doing God's work when he instigated the Holocaust.

Ironically, Adolf Hitler believed he was doing God's work when he instigated the Holocaust.I doubt Adolf was that religious.

I doubt Adolf was that religious.

Why do you doubt that? He used to make birthday cards for his Jewish doctor and did go to church, so stranger things have happened.

I doubt Adolf was that religious.

He was supposedly very religious. Unfortenetly, he happed to also be insane.

While I am all for allowing inmates to practise their respective religions, I do not think that we need to go so far as to begin building chapels, temples, mosques, or whatever, on prison grounds.

Give them Bibles, give them the Koran, whatever, that's fine. Find priests, ministers, rabbis, whatever that are willing to come in and perform services for the inmates in the dining hall or whatever, I'm all for that. I just think that building all those facilities is going a little bit far.

Ironically, Adolf Hitler believed he was doing God's work when he instigated the Holocaust.
You are wrong. The Nazi leadership actually didn't believe in God. Hitler for sure was not religious.

Hello, the swastika? The symbols of the SS? The motto of various outfits. The castles and fortresses that were built (Which are packed with religious meaning).

Yes, they aren't christian religious symbols, but they are religious symbols nonetheless.

I just hope you aren't calling all none christian/muslim/jewish belief systems, non-religions.

While I am all for allowing inmates to practise their respective religions, I do not think that we need to go so far as to begin building chapels, temples, mosques, or whatever, on prison grounds.

Give them Bibles, give them the Koran, whatever, that's fine. Find priests, ministers, rabbis, whatever that are willing to come in and perform services for the inmates in the dining hall or whatever, I'm all for that. I just think that building all those facilities is going a little bit far.

Well, let me ask you this, then: with all those Koran and what not, do you think even ONE CENT of taxpayers money should be spent on the production and/or distribution of these texts?

Wrong. Ninjas kill people.

Back to the point:I see nothing wrong with having chaples or mosqes or whatever on prison grounds. Freedom of religion, after all. Even prisons should uphold the constitution.

When said inmate has thrown said constitution in your face by breaking the law?

Curse religion. If you had been a good little boy/girl, as religion teaches you (well...technically), then you wouldn't be in prison. By "sinning" you give up your rights. Your fellow man tosses you into prison, and God tosses you into Hell.

It's a beautiful cycle, it really is...*teardrop*

You are wrong. The Nazi leadership actually didn't believe in God. Hitler for sure was not religious.
Are we going to have to quote Mein fucking Kampf again?

When said inmate has thrown said constitution in your face by breaking the law?

Guess how many crimes are detailed in the Constitution.

Are we going to have to quote Mein fucking Kampf again?

Again? Do we do that a lot here?

Guess how many crimes are detailed in the Constitution.

Okay, the whole constitution is a crime...

Because it isn't Trudeau's.

*shakes head*

When said inmate has thrown said constitution in your face by breaking the law?

Curse religion. If you had been a good little boy/girl, as religion teaches you (well...technically), then you wouldn't be in prison. By "sinning" you give up your rights. Your fellow man tosses you into prison, and God tosses you into Hell.

It's a beautiful cycle, it really is...*teardrop*

I have mixed feeling here.
On one hand, some of those people in prisons really aren't human. They would sooner gut you then look at you. By all mean they deserve Hell.

Yet on the otherhand, some poeple in prison are victims of circumtance and perhaps did not have the luck or ability (be it will power or tenacity) to get out of the hole they were born in. So to those people, perhaps a second chance is in order.

Thus prison should be a place for them to reflect on their circumtance and learn the means to get out of the hole they are in. Prison then shouldn't be a blackhole with no hope of escape. If religion helps so be it. If not, religion is just one of many ways. Disiplin is another.... ever wondered why the military is good for the neighbourhood troublemakers.

Again? Do we do that a lot here?
Every time someone claims that Hitler was an atheist, yes. You think we like having to quote him?

Okay, the whole constitution is a crime...

Because it isn't Trudeau's.

*shakes head*
What the fuck? Does that make sense to anyone?

What the fuck? Does that make sense to anyone?

Might to a Canadian. So hush with the naughty words...we don't want to disturb the children...

Might to a Canadian. So hush with the naughty words...we don't want to disturb the children...
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7908/motivatordb1d186988929f5f059ea.jpg
I'm allowed to say "fuck". Granted, overuse is frowned upon, but hey, I had this image.

Volunteer, church-funded groups should be allowed to use pre-existing buildings to "minister" to those inmates that choose to attend, so long as it does not interfere with the security and operations of the prison.

Alternative meals should be available for those unable to eat certain dishes for religious reasons. That alternative may be a peanut butter sandwich or a couple of boiled eggs, as long as they're provided with adequate nutrition.

However, no taxpayer money should be used for expressly religious purposes. The state should employ no priests, build no chapels, and print no religious texts.

Okay, the whole constitution is a crime...

Because it isn't Trudeau's.

*shakes head*

Yeah. . .that makes sense. . .look to the guy who hated the media and declared martial law in Quebec and tried to make the provinces slaves to Ottawa. . .makes sense, sure it does.

Yeah lets ignore the fact that most evil things were done on the basis of religion. Crusades, Witch hunts, Taliban...
Holocaust, Gulags... oh wait.

This idea seems like a valid rehabilitation tool.

Holocaust, Gulags... oh wait.

This idea seems like a valid rehabilitation tool.
As noted above, Hitler though he was doing God's work with the Holocaust. I do not believe religion is responsible for the all evils, but would it kill people to use correct examples?

As noted above, Hitler though he was doing God's work with the Holocaust. I do not believe religion is responsible for the all evils, but would it kill people to use correct examples?

I think it may.

*implosion of world*

'Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies' (http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html) by Gregory Paul.

More religion does not a better society make. And that is a scientific fact.

When said inmate has thrown said constitution in your face by breaking the law?

Curse religion. If you had been a good little boy/girl, as religion teaches you (well...technically), then you wouldn't be in prison. By "sinning" you give up your rights. Your fellow man tosses you into prison, and God tosses you into Hell.

It's a beautiful cycle, it really is...*teardrop*

I think religion sucks just as much as you do, but if people in prison want to have the option of being able to visit a place of worship, then they should have that option. Prison is for teaching people to become functioning citizens. It's not supposd to be a twisted hellhole where inmates have no rights.

Volunteer, church-funded groups should be allowed to use pre-existing buildings to "minister" to those inmates that choose to attend, so long as it does not interfere with the security and operations of the prison.

Alternative meals should be available for those unable to eat certain dishes for religious reasons. That alternative may be a peanut butter sandwich or a couple of boiled eggs, as long as they're provided with adequate nutrition.

However, no taxpayer money should be used for expressly religious purposes. The state should employ no priests, build no chapels, and print no religious texts.

AS long as it does not interfere with the workings of the prison. . .
Scenario: a muslims life is not complete without a visit to Mecca. In eessence, the rest of his/her religous life is meaningless without it. . .should he/she be allowed to go?

'Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies' (http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html) by Gregory Paul.

More religion does not a better society make. And that is a scientific fact.

That is not a scientific fact. It's not religion, it's whoever is using it and to what ends. To my knowledge, no religion has ever followed its own doctrine to the point where we could see if it worked. Hell, nearly all religions have such internal conflict they can't even agree on a doctrine.

You might say that religion itself is not a firm scientific fact, so how can it not aiding society be a fact?

(just a thought, possibly tres lame):(

That is not a scientific fact. It's not religion, it's whoever is using it and to what ends. To my knowledge, no religion has ever followed its own doctrine to the point where we could see if it worked. Hell, nearly all religions have such internal conflict they can't even agree on a doctrine.

You might say that religion itself is not a firm scientific fact, so how can it not aiding society be a fact?

(just a thought, possibly tres lame):(

Did you follow the link and read the results of that study? Using the scientific method, Dr. Paul discovered that there is no positive correlation between religiousity and societal health in the developed industrial nations. In fact, there is a negative correlation, with the most religious nations having the most unheality societies, in the group of nations studied.