NationStates Jolt Archive

The EU court has ruled as illegal the demand that airlines provide the US with full details of all the passengers on board a flight to America within 15 minutes of take off. The court said that handing over the data was not founded on an "appropriate legal basis".

What I find most interesting about this is the repercussions it has for pretty much any American immigration policy you care to mention. One of the primary concerns is that the data was not secure enough and could easily be misused. What good is a strong immigration policy if the data you collect is so vulnerable to hackers or other forms of identity theft?

The US is so busy trying to roar and say "look at us, we're strong on terrorism!" but ultimately it is all about image. When even those people who want to co-operate with the US cannot trust that their assistance will not be abused, how on earth is America ever meant to win this little quest of its?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5028918.stm

Details of a UK hacker fighting extradition to the US for his 'easy' hacking of US defence systems: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4758743.stm

Quite right too. I belive the planes used for the last terrorsit attack were all domestic flights weren't they?

I could understand if the USA wanted names, DOB etc, but the data they required included credit card details. WTF?

Why would they want that, and if they are going to have it, surely they have to prove that this data is going to be secure.

Well done the EU courts. (Crap decision by the EU comission in the first place)

maybe they want to rip off our details so they can use our credit cards to pay off their massive deficit.

hmm there's an item on my credit card this month for "UN membership dues $XXXmillion"

I have avoided going to America since 9/11. (Well I probably wouldn't have gone anyway.)

There are bits of the US I'd love to go back to and other bits i want to go to but havn't visited yet but I'm going to wait until our customs boys invent a seperate queue to subject incoming americans to where they will be bombarded with stupid questions like are you a Nazi, have you ever committed a crime against one of our citizens etc.

There are bits of the US I'd love to go back to and other bits i want to go to but havn't visited yet but I'm going to wait until our customs boys invent a seperate queue to subject incoming americans to where they will be bombarded with stupid questions like are you a Nazi, have you ever committed a crime against one of our citizens etc.
"Do you plan to overthrow the Government of the United States?"
"Yes. Yes I do. Was that the wrong answer?"

maybe they want to rip off our details so they can use our credit cards to pay off their massive deficit.

hmm there's an item on my credit card this month for "UN membership dues $XXXmillion"
*howls with laughter*

I could understand if the USA wanted names, DOB etc, but the data they required included credit card details. WTF?

Why would they want that, and if they are going to have it, surely they have to prove that this data is going to be secure.

Well done the EU courts. (Crap decision by the EU comission in the first place)The same reason why the EU won't give the infomation to the US - identity theft. If someone has obtained fake passport, but is using the same credit card (fool that they are), then they could still be traced. The US wants the info because of ID theft, but the EU doesn't want to give it because of ID theft.

ID theft is becoming increasingly common, as you probably know, which is why I do not support attempts to introduce technologies to prevent ID theft. Sounds odd, but these technologies will make us feel that our ID is more secure when it really won't be that much more secure, and not for long either. As such society would become more reliant on ID, and move towards complete exclusion of anyone who might lose there ID easily - like me.

or deliberatley leave them at home _ like me

The same reason why the EU won't give the infomation to the US - identity theft. If someone has obtained fake passport, but is using the same credit card (fool that they are), then they could still be traced. The US wants the info because of ID theft, but the EU doesn't want to give it because of ID theft.

ID theft is becoming increasingly common, as you probably know, which is why I do not support attempts to introduce technologies to prevent ID theft. Sounds odd, but these technologies will make us feel that our ID is more secure when it really won't be that much more secure, and not for long either. As such society would become more reliant on ID, and move towards complete exclusion of anyone who might lose there ID easily - like me.
Claps The Infinite Dunes 2000th post. :)

I feel the same way about ID cards - everyone will think that we have a foolproof method of preventing fraud, but how long before they're copied and criminals have a free ticket to your identity?

Especially considering that these 'foolproof' ID cards are obtained using ordinary documents such as passports, that can be, er, fraudulent.

I bet if the EU asked all American airlines for the same information, they'd start complaining about privacy issues of Americans!

I have avoided going to America since 9/11. (Well I probably wouldn't have gone anyway.)

Shame, that's what the terrorists want. Personally, I felt very safe when I flew to Orlando last year, with all the security. If only the US Dept. of Homeland Security could have gotten rid of Hurricane Wilma, too.

maybe they want to rip off our details so they can use our credit cards to pay off their massive deficit.

hmm there's an item on my credit card this month for "UN membership dues $XXXmillion"

:D

If only the US Dept. of Homeland Security could have gotten rid of Hurricane Wilma, too.
They dealt with it. They insisted it file the appropriate documentation on arriving in the USA, scanned it and took its personal information, determined its threat level on a colourful scale, and then went and arrested a couple of dodgy looking Saudi's.

Did it not all work out properly?

Claps The Infinite Dunes 2000th post. :)

I feel the same way about ID cards - everyone will think that we have a foolproof method of preventing fraud, but how long before they're copied and criminals have a free ticket to your identity?

Especially considering that these 'foolproof' ID cards are obtained using ordinary documents such as passports, that can be, er, fraudulent.Damn, I forgot that was going to be my 2000th post. I wanted to do some annoyingly spammy to celebrate that I no longer had the stupid 'Forum Boredom' taggy thing.


Anyway, Evidence A: The Madrid bombers all had fake Spanish ID.

I'm off now to go see a play. :D
PS. WTF is up with Australians putting babies in tumbledriers?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/5028826.stm

PS. WTF is up with Australians putting babies in tumbledriers?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/5028826.stm

Our kids are tough! :eek:

You can't sit here and make the US out to be the bad guy here. It was a justifiable request. You cannot say the situatio would be the same if reversed. You never know what one would do when put in a certain situation. Terrorism can be defeated. The United States can defeat the countries of terror by itself. To defeat terrorism as a whole, that needs to be the world's objective. Yeah talk is nice and safe but there comes a time when you need to put your foot foward and everyone who stands for what is right work together.

You can't sit here and make the US out to be the bad guy here. It was a justifiable request.
And you honestly think the US would give the information over freely if the EU demanded it?

You can't sit here and make the US out to be the bad guy here. It was a justifiable request. You cannot say the situatio would be the same if reversed. You never know what one would do when put in a certain situation. Terrorism can be defeated. The United States can defeat the countries of terror by itself. To defeat terrorism as a whole, that needs to be the world's objective. Yeah talk is nice and safe but there comes a time when you need to put your foot foward and everyone who stands for what is right work together.

Yep, now I suppose you'd allow the EU to get same information about yourself when travelling to Europe?

If the EU was in the same situation as the USA not only would information be shared between the two entities but so would the manpower.

I could understand if the USA wanted names, DOB etc, but the data they required included credit card details. WTF?

Why would they want that, and if they are going to have it, surely they have to prove that this data is going to be secure.

Well done the EU courts. (Crap decision by the EU comission in the first place)
I agree with your conclusion, but to address the part in bold: unless the USA government is behind the analytical curve, they would be data mining to try and establish risk profiles - identifying risk indicators to follow up with 'appropriate' security intervention. All fairly woolly and can be contentious, but no different in kind, analytically speaking, from the customer profiling that big retailers go in for, using non-retail data, eg demographic profiles, which does have a proven track record.

If the EU was in the same situation as the USA not only would information be shared between the two entities but so would the manpower.

So, what if Russia and China would want the same next?

If the EU was in the same situation as the USA not only would information be shared between the two entities but so would the manpower.
Given the things the US justifies using the excuse of terrorism, plus its less than rosy record at sharing things with its allies (think rendition flights http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4946668.stm), I would be very surprised if the US agreed to something so obviously against its own interests.

Nuveria
If the EU was in the same situation as the USA not only would information be shared between the two entities but so would the manpower.

The EU is in the same situation as the USA. Ever heard of the Madrid bombings and the London bombings?

Given the things the US justifies using the excuse of terrorism, plus its less than rosy record at sharing things with its allies (think rendition flights http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4946668.stm), I would be very surprised if the US agreed to something so obviously against its own interests.

True the US looks out for its own intrest alot. But attacking whats in bold explain US involvement in the following:

WWI
WWII
Korea
Persian Guilf War
Oh and most importantly
NATO

The EU is in the same situation as the USA. Ever heard of the Madrid bombings and the London bombings?



NO Britian and Spain is in the same situation not the EU

True the US looks out for its own intrest alot. But attacking whats in bold explain US involvement in tha following:

WWI
WWII
Korea
Persian Guilf War
Oh and most importantly
NATO
WWI - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.
WWII - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.
Korea - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.
Persian Guilf War - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.
NATO - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.

The US can do a lot of good in the world, but it usually has to be forced to do so first.

I agree with your conclusion, but to address the part in bold: unless the USA government is behind the analytical curve, they would be data mining to try and establish risk profiles - identifying risk indicators to follow up with 'appropriate' security intervention. All fairly woolly and can be contentious, but no different in kind, analytically speaking, from the customer profiling that big retailers go in for, using non-retail data, eg demographic profiles, which does have a proven track record.

Very woolly indeed. Data mining is only of any use if there are established indicators for the information you want. For terrorism, no such indicators have been established, nor are they likely to be, given the awareness of the terrorists themselves of these types of procedures.

In terms of procedure, yes it is similar to customer profiling, but in terms of effectiveness it is not. Most customers do not go out of their way to avoid being identified. I realy can not see what anti-terrorism security information can be obtained from a passanger's credit card details. Any terrorist is not going to use a credit card that is traceable to the same ID that they are travelling under to purchase anything incriminating. What does the US expect? Mr J. Hyung on flight 2704 bought surveillance equipment, semtex and a sig sauer in the last three days. It isn't going to happen.

Demographic profiling is only of any use to retailers because market research is reasonably reliable in profiling. The consumer tends not to be evasive in answering surveys. I was not aware of Gallop having undertaken a terrorist survey or two that could be used to establish the demographic distribution of terrorists.

NO Britian is in the same situation not the EU
Madrid isn't in Britain. :rolleyes:

Philosopy
Madrid isn't in Britain. :rolleyes:

Snap!

quite right.

The EU is in the same situation as the USA. Ever heard of the Madrid bombings and the London bombings?

Man...unless it's a world war or a war for oil don't even try bother the us-americans with anything outside their own turf. Well...they might be up for some backyard colonialism.

NO Britian is in the same situation not the EU

Which part of "Madrid bombings" did you not understand? Oh, and, you know, Britain is part of the EU.

Please, get a clue.

WWI - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.
WWII - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.
Korea - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.
Persian Guilf War - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.
NATO - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.

The US can do a lot of good in the world, but it usually has to be forced to do so first.

UM no.

WWI - All the US got out of it was The Flu we really wanted that.
WWII - WEe were not forced into to Europe but the Pacific. ALlies needed opur help
Korea - Looking out for democracy
Persian Guilf War - um yeah got that one.
NATO - For worlds intrest against communist threat

Alright first of all Britain is in the EU but so are other nations who are having no trouble at all. Second of and more importantly how can you say the US is in the colonialism fad. Name all the colonies the US has ever had and compare it with all the colonies Europe has ever had.

In any case, this will have no effect on me. I haven't been to the US since they introduced their arcane systems, and I don't foresee any return visit. Canada, and the rest of America deserve my tourism a lot more than the US nowadays.

Not to mention that in the US, you have no rights as a foreigner as they don't have proper rule of law. They can send you to Gitmo if their President feels like sending you there. That doesn't exactly inspire confidence in them as a just nation.

Alright first of all Britain is in the EU but so are other nations who are having no trouble at all.

New York, Pennsylvania and DC are in the US, but so are other states who are having no trouble at all.

Again, get a clue already. :rolleyes:

In any case, this will have no effect on me. I haven't been to the US since they introduced their arcane systems, and I don't foresee any return visit. Canada, and the rest of America deserve my tourism a lot more than the US nowadays.

Not to mention that in the US, you have no rights as a foreigner as they don't have proper rule of law. They can send you to Gitmo if their President feels like sending you there.

No they can't and the US is built upon the rule of law.

No they can't and the US is built upon the rule of law.

Tell that to the people in Gitmo who are yet to be charged for any sort of crime years and years on, or those who were surveyed warrantlessly. US and rule of law have become oxymorons.

New York, Pennsylvania and DC are in the US, but so are other states who are having no trouble at all.

Again, get a clue already. :rolleyes:

The EU is not a country it is an organiztion there is between the EU and the US the US is a country.

NO Britian and Spain is in the same situation not the EU
Oh blessed ignorance.

You know nothing at all about how the EU functions, do you? Nor even which nations are involved in Iraq.

There are no border controls within the EU. Once you are inside, you can move from state to state very easily.

What you are suggesting is the same as suggesting that only NY and DC need to worry about terrorists, the rest of the USA is not affected.

NO Britian and Spain is in the same situation not the EU
That's on a similar level as saying New York State is in that situation, but the US is not.

I'll admit that the regulatory info dump from the EU to USA was a bit of a tall order. But if I remember correctly, I think they demanded the same of Canada. I can't remember whether or not the proposal was accepted for the death of me, but I am quite sure the topic was raised concerning the Land Up North. I just don't think that America has been trying to single out the EU, that's all. They're just worried. I mean, after losing two thousand people in the span of an hour or so - not to mention the health problems the rescue workers are being plagued with - they are certainly justifiable in their fear. They're worried about it happening again, and I would be too. I'm still waiting for the day one of these Extremist Organizations finally decides to target Canada for it's prescense in the Middle East. I'm also really worried about what it'll do to us, but there's only so much we can do. Lord knows what secretive, counter-terrorism measures the US is carrying out to thwart potential attacks. I'm also quite certain that there are multiple European organizations doing much of the same stuff, no doubt. It's the thought of that which gives me SOME hope, rather than none.

And, not to belittle the attacks, but the Madrid and London bombings weren't even near the same scale as 9/11. That day in September was grandiose and violent; exactly what Laden wanted. The European attacks were designed mostly to kill people for supporting America, if I remember the details...9/11, however, was after the American minds more than anything else.

And that's my two cents.

The EU is not a country it is an organiztion there is between the EU and the US the US is a country.

Wow. You really have no idea how the EU functions, do you? Google "Schengen." Go ahead, google. And get that clue you so sorely seem to be missing.

You can't sit here and make the US out to be the bad guy here. It was a justifiable request. You cannot say the situatio would be the same if reversed. You never know what one would do when put in a certain situation. Terrorism can be defeated. The United States can defeat the countries of terror by itself. To defeat terrorism as a whole, that needs to be the world's objective. Yeah talk is nice and safe but there comes a time when you need to put your foot foward and everyone who stands for what is right work together.

The US wanted 34 different pieces of information, and actually wanted a lot more, like your past flying history. Part of the info that gets given over is what special meals you've ordered (halal meat probably equals a red flag) and the like. Also, the information isn't just used to create a profile risk for the flight, but gets archived for further use that isn't limited to immigration related things. And the information is kept for decades.

The only reason why this was agreed on was because the US threatened either massive fines per person entering without the info sent on to them (which would have bankrupted any non-US airline carriers) or would have revoked landing rights (which would have done the same thing).

And, let's face it: at best you'd only stop the stupid 'terrorists' and not the real ones - all the while the Mexican and Canadian borders are as leaky as a sieve, and judging by all the drugs that come through Miami, that is even worse! This isn't going to stop anyone that really wants to commit a terroristic action, nor will it bump the price tag high enough either.

Ineffective smoke-and-mirrors, but it makes for good soundbites for the next election!

Oh blessed ignorance.

You know nothing at all about how the EU functions, do you? Nor even which nations are involved in Iraq.

There are no border controls within the EU. Once you are inside, you can move from state to state very easily.

What you are suggesting is the same as suggesting that only NY and DC need to worry about terrorists, the rest of the USA is not affected.

The whole world needs to worry about terrorist. Not just one region or two. What the past ten or so post show the problem in world. Nationalism; The NationState.

Oh and ignorance is bliss.

Oh and ignorance is bliss.

As you have so ably demonstrated.

Alright first of all Britain is in the EU but so are other nations who are having no trouble at all. Second of and more importantly how can you say the US is in the colonialism fad. Name all the colonies the US has ever had and compare it with all the colonies Europe has ever had.

Ah, you're quite right! I'm terribly sorry, I mixed up the words by accident. the word I meant to use was imperialism. What you guys have done all over south america is quite disgusting.

WWI - All the US got out of it was The Flu we really wanted that.You're missing the bits about selling arms and having to ensure that the side that owed the US money actually won the war in order to be able to pay it back some day.
WWII - WEe were not forced into to Europe but the Pacific. ALlies needed opur helpWell, one could consider the declaration of war by Germany as forcing the US. And it's not as though the US wasn't selling and leasing arms at the time either.
Korea - Looking out for democracyKorea after the Korean war isn't exactly the best example of making democracy work. And that would be ignoring the "containment policy" of the time.
NATO - For worlds intrest against communist threatLosing prestige had as much to do with it. The US hasn't really been working in favor of people when going against communism. Look 9/11 1973 in Chile up, for instance.

The whole world needs to worry about terrorist. Not just one region or two. What the past ten or so post show the problem in world. Nationalism; The NationState.

Oh and ignorance is bliss.

So then the whole of the EU should have the right to collect whatever data they want on US travellers? That was where we started, so glad you agree. Now please send all of your personal data to the EU commission, thank you.

You can't sit here and make the US out to be the bad guy here. It was a justifiable request.

It was an unjustifiable request, and the Court ruled so. Oh, and the US are very much the bad guys. Not to be trusted further than you can throw them.

It was an unjustifiable request, and the Court ruled so. Oh, and the US are very much the bad guys. Not to be trusted further than you can throw them.

You need to be pretty strong to be able to even lift the average american dude. I wouldn't want to try to throw them anywhere.

It was an unjustifiable request, and the Court ruled so. Oh, and the US are very much the bad guys. Not to be trusted further than you can throw them.

I can throw American soil, if that counts. And some pretty big rocks, too! Throwing an actual American instead of eetsy-beetsy pieces of America though? That's a bit iffy... :rolleyes:

You know, it's not the terrorists that make me feel unsafe traveling to the US again...
It's the Americans. Specifically their gov't.
Canada and US has always had an open door policy at the border, and if the Americans think I'm buying into their fancy microchip card system to cross the border, they can [censored].
I've been to the US a lot. I live 30 minutes from the MN border, and loved going down there to watch my beloved Blue Jays play ball with the Twins. I've been to California, and think it'd be fun to see the east coast, too.
But with all the bs coming out of the States, and the garbage they're saying about not trusting anyone who isn't American, I have no use for them, and won't be going there again.

You need to be pretty strong to be able to even lift the average american dude. I wouldn't want to try to throw them anywhere.


it just goes to show how much you can trust them then:rolleyes:

You need to be pretty strong to be able to even lift the average american dude. I wouldn't want to try to throw them anywhere.

You'd need one of those medieval catapaults ...

You need to be pretty strong to be able to even lift the average american dude. I wouldn't want to try to throw them anywhere.

That being the point. You can't throw lard-asses very far, and you can thus not trust them very much at all.

You'd need one of those medieval catapaults ...

I was thinking of a mass driver in space. We shuttle them there and eject them into deep space. But then the drifting fatties would just get us into a war with an unknown, but strong, alien empire...over oil.

Very woolly indeed. Data mining is only of any use if there are established indicators for the information you want. For terrorism, no such indicators have been established, nor are they likely to be, given the awareness of the terrorists themselves of these types of procedures.

In terms of procedure, yes it is similar to customer profiling, but in terms of effectiveness it is not. Most customers do not go out of their way to avoid being identified. I realy can not see what anti-terrorism security information can be obtained from a passanger's credit card details. Any terrorist is not going to use a credit card that is traceable to the same ID that they are travelling under to purchase anything incriminating. What does the US expect? Mr J. Hyung on flight 2704 bought surveillance equipment, semtex and a sig sauer in the last three days. It isn't going to happen.

Demographic profiling is only of any use to retailers because market research is reasonably reliable in profiling. The consumer tends not to be evasive in answering surveys. I was not aware of Gallop having undertaken a terrorist survey or two that could be used to establish the demographic distribution of terrorists.
(Note that I said nothing about my expectations of the US authorities' likelihood of success, only my expectations of their thinking. My own intuition is that the number of putative terrorists is far too low for the techniques to have much validity.)

With that caveat, data mining is a very loose term, but it can used to establish risk profiles as well as to extract data against previously established indicators. It should be tested against external evidence - experience, intelligence, external surveys, whatever - and I would also question results that haven't been, but it can in theory stand on its own.

For example, you could run cluster analysis through bank records and demographics and find a particular grouping around a particular private bank that is in some way unusual. You then run some form of follow up action and find a gang using the bank for money laundering. Or not. The point is that the techniques can only identify potential risk, not actual threat. What they do do, if successful, is focus attention more effectively. It's a best use of limited resources thing.

That said, they should never be relied on exclusively, of course, because of the old 'we don't know what we don't know' problem.

Finally, you're quite right to point out the issue of terrorists using multiple identities (or people) to obfuscate their transaction trail. However, when considering whether or not (a) the technique will be deployed; or (b) it will be successful, you should never under-estimate the stupidity of (a) the transgressers; or (b) the institution trying to catch them.

Ouch...eight straight posts of America/Americans-bashing, right above White Hats' post...You people ought to be ashamed of yourselves!

...oh, right, my post is in that string of eight...ahehehe...! :D

Yeah the US has done things wrong in the Past. And in popular opinion still is. Yeah America has domestic issues that still need to be taken care of or worked on I won't to you. I will say this out all the bad and wrong the US has done it has done a a whole lot better things within 230 years than what Europe as a whole has done in the past 4000 years no offense or anything. When a country has been in the past in need of help what nation was looked to. When a coalition was formed what nation spearheaded the operation. The United States has given much to the world especially Europe.

Meat and foamy mead
I was thinking of a mass driver in space. We shuttle them there and eject them into deep space. but it would be typical if they drifted right to an alien world and got them into a war with earth. So the massdriver might be a bad idea.

I agree in part. I don't thing americans and first contact go together but if you can acidentally point the mass driver into the sun, I won't hold it against you ;)

That being the point. You can't throw lard-asses very far, and you can thus not trust them very much at all.

That's a funny saying, about trusting others as far as you can throw them.But it's true. I can't throw my fucking neighbur very far, and he's a lying fucktard. On the other hand I could chuck my puppy quite far and I trust her completely.

Yeah the US has done things wrong in the Past. And in popular opinion still is. Yeah America has domestic issues that still need to be taken care of or worked on I won't to you. I will say this out all the bad and wrong the US has done it has done a a whole lot better things within 230 years than what Europe as a whole has done in the past 4000 years no offense or anything. When a country has been in the past in need of help what nation was looked to. When a coalition was formed what nation spearheaded the operation. The United States has given much to the world especially Europe.

As I said, and you agreed, Ignorance is bliss. Stay happy.

That's a funny saying, about trusting others as far as you can throw them.But it's true. I can't throw my fucking neighbur very far, and he's a lying fucktard. On the other hand I could chuck my puppy quite far and I trust her completely.

I hope you're speaking from guesstimates here...:eek:

If not, then I wish your puppy all the luck in the world.

That's a funny saying, about trusting others as far as you can throw them.But it's true. I can't throw my fucking neighbur very far, and he's a lying fucktard. On the other hand I could chuck my puppy quite far and I trust her completely.

Engelska uttryck är finurliga på det viset.

Why is it that most Europeans hate Americans anyways.

Fass
Engelska uttryck är finurliga på det viset.

:confused:

Why is it that most Europeans hate Americans anyways.

You have to be a troll.

Most Europeans don't give shit about Americans. Satisfied now?

Yeah the US has done things wrong in the Past. And in popular opinion still is. Yeah America has domestic issues that still need to be taken care of or worked on I won't to you. I will say this out all the bad and wrong the US has done it has done a a whole lot better things within 230 years than what Europe as a whole has done in the past 4000 years no offense or anything. When a country has been in the past in need of help what nation was looked to. When a coalition was formed what nation spearheaded the operation. The United States has given much to the world especially Europe.

Listen mate...your country is, compared to most countries in EU, a sperm in the company of adults. You hardly have any history, no roots and despite starting off with nice and high ideals, at a time in history when things were starting to get better, you've fucked up lots of things in amazingly short time. You've given fairly much, but always under the gun. You've done lots of trash, out of free will. You guys are phenomenal at starting wars but you suck and ending them. You love to start new wars despite the old ones are still there. So all in all I think EU is turning out to be pretty ok compared to you. No offense, ofcourse.

Why is it that most Europeans hate Americans anyways.

Because the entire world outside of America is evil. Now go to sleep saying that over and over and over...:p

Why is it that most Europeans hate Americans anyways.

We don't hate you. We just think you're full of it. Oh, we're full of it, too, but you like to pretend you're not. Especially with your little "we've done more good in 230 years than you in 4000 years" comment. Shows how little you actually know of those 4000 years of history, not to mention those petty 230...

The thing is, you like to think you're the good guys, and everyone else is just not buying it any more.

I hope you're speaking from guesstimates here...:eek:

If not, then I wish your puppy all the luck in the world.

She's ok. I just reckoned that if I could swing her with her own leash I could make her fly a pretty decent distance. Man...I'd rather bang my balls with a hammer than willfully hurt her. Well...

Meat and foamy mead
Listen mate...your country is, compared to most countries in EU, a sperm in the company of adults. You hardly have any history, no roots and despite starting off with nice and high ideals, at a time in history when things were starting to get better, you've fucked up lots of things in amazingly short time. You've given fairly much, but always under the gun. You've done lots of trash, out of free will. You guys are phenomenal at starting wars but you suck and ending them. You love to start new wars despite the old ones are still there. So all in all I think EU is turning out to be pretty ok compared to you. No offense, ofcourse.

*cheers*

She's ok. I just reckoned that if I could swing her with her own leash I could make her fly a pretty decent distance. Man...I'd rather bang my balls with a hammer than willfully hurt her. Well...

Awww, how...sweet, I guess? Sort of. :p

Engelska uttryck är finurliga på det viset.

Yup, agreed. I even go so far as to insist that we should just swap swedish to english as our language. More words, more funny sayings and much better titles on movies!

Yup, agreed. I even go so far as to insist that we should just swap swedish to english as our language. More words, more funny sayings and much better titles on movies!

Ugh. While they may be quirky, English is an emotionless language. Monotonous, unaesthetical, boring. Swap Swedish for English?

Över min mycket protesterande käft!

Awww, how...sweet, I guess? Sort of. :p

I just hope it'll never come to that. I like my balls pretty much actually. I call them Hitler and Stalin because they both have very strong wills.

Ugh. While they may be quirky, English is an emotionless language. Monotonous, unaesthetical, boring. Swap Swedish for English?

Över min mycket protesterande käft!

I think I got the jist of this one. :p

I just hope it'll never come to that. I like my balls pretty much actually. I call them Hitler and Stalin because they both have very strong wills.

Your balls have killed over twenty six million people? :eek: That's...pretty scary, actually.

I thought we were talking about the amerian policy on incoming travellers, if so how have got to talking about this guys balls? :confused:

Your balls have killed over twenty six million people? :eek: That's...pretty scary, actually.

My balls have killed billions already. Well...to their defence they did it indirectly.

*edit*
And my apologies for taking this ot. I made my point earlier. now I'm going outside to get some sun and eat icecream. I'm going to eat a piggelin.
God bless America! :p

Why is it that most Europeans hate Americans anyways.

We don't hate Americans per se but their staggering arrogance & monumental ignorance really irritate us besides we you very easy to wind up.

I thought we were talking about the amerian policy on incoming travellers, if so how have got to talking about this guys balls? :confused:

That's the way it is with America; regardless of what you start out talking about, it always ends up with balls. :p

I'm going to eat a piggelin.

:eek: Is that the Swedish word for icecream? It is strangely alike to the Chinese word (something like bingilin, I have no idea how to write it)

I must say that this has been the funniest American-bashing thread in ages... Keep up the good work!

:eek: Is that the Swedish word for icecream? It is strangely alike to the Chinese word (something like bingilin, I have no idea how to write it)

Piggelin is the name of a kind of pear-flavoured ice on a stick sold by GB, which is the Swedish subsidiary to "Wall's."

I'm going to eat a piggelin.

Oh, wow...I totally didn't notice that it was spelt 'piggelin'. :D

I was wondering what he was doing eating pigeons...

Arcelea
I was wondering what he was doing eating pigeons...

Hey, pigeons taste quite nice, squirals taste better but are harder to hit:sniper:

Don't speak for me as "Americans". I'm not the idiot skipper honking the horn, and driving the U.S.S. MY Daddy Was President Too. It's not my fault practically all the politicians here are half-wits. Bush's motto: (Nazi voice) "ve vill prove za might of za dimvit, to all za world."

Piggelin is the name of a kind of pear-flavoured ice on a stick sold by GB, which is the Swedish subsidiary to "Wall's."


Wow, that is awesome... I never knew. The Chinese is just a generic icecream (I think)

Awesome: continue US-bashing now...:D

I will say this out all the bad and wrong the US has done it has done a a whole lot better things within 230 years than what Europe as a whole has done in the past 4000 years no offense or anything.You kind of have to add the past 4000 years of European history to America's list of faults if you want to go that far back.

Then again, you could also refrain from using long past history as an excuse for misbehaving in the present.

You kind of have to add the past 4000 years of European history to America's list of faults if you want to go that far back.


Alternately, we could simply list all the strengths of the Indigenous Native Americans, then mumble something about Andrew Jackson and Manifest Destiny. Looking at it that way, each strength would become part of America's faults (and I do belive we can blame this on America, what with Congress allready being in place, and the Civil War being in full swing).


Can we also take a note to consider which other countries (or Regimes) have come that close to wiping out an entire nation of people? Because I can only think of one at the moment, and they were hardly popular.

(Allthough personally I think this is all a bit moot, disliking people today for what someone else did 200 odd years ag)

You kind of have to add the past 4000 years of European history to America's list of faults if you want to go that far back.

Then again, you could also refrain from using long past history as an excuse for misbehaving in the present.

I am glad you pointed that out now just swap that around and I can use the same argument against Europe. But what people across the world fail to realize is that it is not the US they are mad at it is the US government. Yep if I had my way I would let Hitler go as far as he could without crossing the Atlantic. I would allowed Stalin to claim whatever parts of Europe he wanted and worry about who he took over. And Kuwait and several middle eastern nations would have been annexed into Iraq it would not have been my problem at all because I am arrogant and I could care less about my fellow man. Yeah my Grandparents wouldn't be alive. I wouldn't be alive. BUt if anyone back in the day had any sanity in them they would have stayed out of world affairs because getting involved and standing up for what is right is just stupid because they would be looked upon with hatered from all the "smart" people and then let down by all their previous allies. So there would be no point in stopping a ggenocide, or making a UN, or giving a rats ass about the RAF and how long it would be untill they were defeated. But what can youk expect people are just like snakes. Your friend one minute and your enemy the next. Such a sad world.

Alternately, we could simply list all the strengths of the Indigenous Native Americans, then mumble something about Andrew Jackson and Manifest Destiny. Looking at it that way, each strength would become part of America's faults (and I do belive we can blame this on America, what with Congress allready being in place, and the Civil War being in full swing).


Can we also take a note to consider which other countries (or Regimes) have come that close to wiping out an entire nation of people? Because I can only think of one at the moment, and they were hardly popular.

(Allthough personally I think this is all a bit moot, disliking people today for what someone else did 200 odd years ago)

I concur with the bold. But have you forgotten or did yopu ever learn aboiut what Saddam did to the Kruds? And if I remember correctly it wasn't the US who first fought the native americans. It was not the US who first brought slaves to america. I was not the US who tried taking over the world. But it was the US who infulenced otther democracies around the world.

I concur with the bold. But have you forgotten or did yopu ever learn aboiut what Saddam did to the Kruds? And if I remember correctly it wasn't the US who first fought the native americans. It was not the US who first brought slaves to america. I was not the US who tried taking over the world. But it was the US who infulenced otther democracies around the world.
Um, not that I don't agree with you, but uh...that's not the topic here.

Um, not that I don't agree with you, but uh...that's not the topic here.
alot of stuff on here has nothing to do with the topic

I am glad you pointed that out now just swap that around and I can use the same argument against Europe. But what people across the world fail to realize is that it is not the US they are mad at it is the US government. Yep if I had my way I would let Hitler go as far as he could without crossing the Atlantic. Until Pearl Harbor and the German declaration of war, that's pretty much how the American people wanted.
I would allowed Stalin to claim whatever parts of Europe he wanted and worry about who he took over.I see. That's probably why that happened then.
And Kuwait and several middle eastern nations would have been annexed into Iraq it would not have been my problem at all because I am arrogant and I could care less about my fellow man. Of course, Kuwait being one of the OPEC's major oil producers had nothing to do with it. I mean, the government of the country that was willing to accept rations on everything but gasoline during WWII won't whine if gas prices go up all of a sudden, right?
Yeah my Grandparents wouldn't be alive. I wouldn't be alive. Neither would I. What's your point?
BUt if anyone back in the day had any sanity in them they would have stayed out of world affairs because getting involved and standing up for what is right is just stupid because they would be looked upon with hatered from all the "smart" people and then let down by all their previous allies. I can't believe you're actually using WWII as an example for this. Consider how honorable it is to stand up for what's right SEVERAL YEARS AFTERWARDS. Not very.
So there would be no point in stopping a ggenocide, or making a UN, or giving a rats ass about the RAF and how long it would be untill they were defeated.Aha. So what genocide has the US stepped in to stop recently? I can remember Kosovo.
But what can youk expect people are just like snakes. Your friend one minute and your enemy the next. Such a sad world.I dunno. I'd probably ditch a friend that kept on wanting to bully other people without caring that I might not like the idea.

But have you forgotten or did yopu ever learn aboiut what Saddam did to the Kruds?

Yeah, around the same time I learned who supported him stepping into power in the first place...

Alternately, we could simply list all the strengths of the Indigenous Native Americans, then mumble something about Andrew Jackson and Manifest Destiny. Looking at it that way, each strength would become part of America's faults (and I do belive we can blame this on America, what with Congress allready being in place, and the Civil War being in full swing).How much Indigenous Native American heritage is left in the modern government and how much European heritage is left? That's the point I was making.
Can we also take a note to consider which other countries (or Regimes) have come that close to wiping out an entire nation of people? Because I can only think of one at the moment, and they were hardly popular.I can think of two. Germany and Austria aren't the same country anymore, you know ;)
(Allthough personally I think this is all a bit moot, disliking people today for what someone else did 200 odd years ag)Which sounds almost exactly like:

Then again, you could also refrain from using long past history as an excuse for misbehaving in the present.Which was the part you failed to quote.

I dunno. I'd probably ditch a friend that kept on wanting to bully other people without caring that I might not like the idea.

Yeah thats the difference between you and me. I would never ditch a friend I would correct him/her and show them they were doing wrong. ANd how is the US bulling anyone.

Which was the part you failed to quote.

Yeah... The post was about 50% stuff I though of while reading it, 50% stuff I made up on the spot, as the last bit wasn't part I had a reply to allready planned (and I forgot it was mentioned).

Besides, if it's any indication of my posts, I'm still resisting the urge to comment on 'friends being like snakes' something along the lines of not being friends with people who tend to swallow their pray live and whole...

Yeah thats the difference between you and me. I would never ditch a friend I would correct him/her and show them they were doing wrong. ANd how is the US bulling anyone.Of course, this friend doesn't listen. There was plenty of advice not to go into Iraq, and Bush did it anyway.

And the bullying: Freedom Fries? Remember that?
Or how the US is treating Venezuela or Cuba?
Or Vietnam?
"Country's like Cuba, Libya, and Germany..."
Attacking Iraq could just as well be put into that category, since there was no accute reason around for doing so.

Of course, this friend doesn't listen. There was plenty of advice not to go into Iraq, and Bush did it anyway.

And the bullying: Freedom Fries? Remember that?
Or how the US is treating Venezuela or Cuba?
Or Vietnam?
"Country's like Cuba, Libya, and Germany..."
Attacking Iraq could just as well be put into that category, since there was no accute reason around for doing so.

1)true there was advice not go but there also was alot of support especially from Blair
2)Freedom Fries lol that was funny and a bit ridiculous because I have always called them fries. Besides thousands of US soldiers are buried in france because they were helping to liberate them and yet France did not wish to help the US. But hey there call.
3)Venezula and Cuba? Dude I haven't heard about the US doing anything to either one but I have heard something about Venezula trying to overthrow us with gass prices or something.
3)Vietnam=policy containment(was handled very badly)(But what about Russia in Afghanastan and all of its previous annexations)
4) What about Cuba and Libya and Besides Had not been for the US Germany would not be the Germany it is today and niether would my grandmother meet her Italian American husband.
5) there were several reasons for attacking Iraq 1)fear of Weapons of Mass destruction 2)and to finish what we started 10 years before.

3)Venezula and Cuba? Dude I haven't heard about the US doing anything to either one but I have heard something about Venezula trying to overthrow us with gass prices or something.

Uh... What about that blockade on Cuba? You know, that one that's turned it into a third world country...

More disturbing than the content of any of the accusations leveled on either side of the American/Continental debate is the lack of historical consciousness and criticality evident in either the attacks or the responses.

For the love of god, my fellow Americans: demonstrate some grasp of the fundamentals of English literacy and stop embarrassing me with your poor grammar and incessant misspelling.

To the European contingent, for whom I have no small sympathy given my year spent studying at the University of Bologna, please: the fashionability of America bashing, while well justified under the current regime, stems from a willful ignorance of some of the guiding principles of international relations. The remarks about the First and Second World Wars serve to indict the European educational system's treatment of modern history - a good many European governmental institutions deriving their legitimacy from their foundation in the WWII era, and find it subsequently necessary to support their foundation myth with questionable revisionism, made in the academic arena, but developed in pursuit of political expedience. We speak of the US's WWI, WWII, and Korean War actions as founded in a distinctly American self-interest when clearly anyone with legitimate training in history, European or American, will be forced to say that this is grossly misapprehending the circumstances - the US's actions, particularly in WWII, strike me as the most altruistic of the involved (to a fault, actually, I believe it is the British historian Overy who asserts that Great Britain and the Soviet Union, with Lend-Lease Act support, could have won the war without American intervention, achieving the goals of a stable Western Europe and defensible spheres of influence as dictated by American self-interest all while sparing American lives.) Roosevelt was a good man, one of the last to hold his position, and I put far more faith in his intentions than the zealously racist Anthony Eden (according to accounts offered by his own aids) or the rest of the British FO. More of WWII? More of the incompetent French regime, spectacularly failing in the defense of their people, the complicity of Southern France, the complicity of Mussolini's Italy, of Polish Hiwis, of Eastern European and Baltic nationalists? No one's hands are clean.

So we'll speak of recent US faults - the most prominent of which is its extraordinary failure in the Middle East. But from where did the situation arise? The ramifications British and French colonialism in the wake of WWI, the Sykes Picquot agreement that is the absolute pinnacle of imperialist policy, the British failures in Mandate Palestine, the doubletalk that is the Balfour Declaration and the inordinate, incomprehensible trouble that has cause, the 1939 White Paper that further angered both sides of the population, the British institution of kings in Iraq and Jordan drawn not from the indigenous populations, but rather, in the midst of nationalist turmoil, from opposing populations. Western issues with Egypt stem from French mistreatment of Nasser pursuant to their fear of Pan-Arab revolt in colonial Algeria (yes, I know Algeria was not regarded as a colony but a part of France, but I speak from a realist point of view).

We speak of the comparative grandeur of the EU, yet it had to be founded in spite of the mass of the leaders of the day (famously nationalist, anti-pan-European Charles de Gaulle most notably) and in spite of the European population (who, even now, fear to adopt a useful document simply because the Eurocrats fallaciously termed it a constitution, though in their assumption of understanding, a vast number of Europeans failed to actually read the document and see it is nothing of the sort, voting it down out of xenophobia and a contempt for their current ministers rather than recognizing its utility)
By far the EU's largest and most successful program, the CAP, was founded in an extraordinary feat of French self-interest, to which Great Britain, in a self-interested reprisal, refused to contribute. The supposedly progressive EU refuses Turkish participation because, what, they're incapable of adopting the 96,000 pages of technical harmonization policies? No. Rather, it is because, to quote a French minister, the inclusion of Turkey would "dilute the Christian identity of the EU." Absurd.

US immigration troubles? Entering Dulles is astonishingly similar, to the average Italian, to standing in the non-EU line at Stansted (the nearly fascist extreme) or crossing the Austro-Hungarian border (the border patrol with the consistency of whipped cream extreme). The xenophobic fears of Eastern French labor guarding against a guest worker program, the fears of Austria and Germany regarding polish and Czech labor poised to flood the blue-collar market.

The US's great failures have found, do find, without question, their counterpart on the continent and in Britain - the average American, however, is too bloody uninformed to be able to point it out (indicated by the fact that more people voted for the next American Idol than in any presidential election. I nearly vomited upon hearing that). But this is not an excuse for those Europeans possessed of irrational nationalism (under the veil of, what, purported selflessness? A contempt for "distinctly American" wrongdoing?) to ignore the realities of the international system. Yes, for the unfathomable amount of aid that the United States dispenses (almost entirely as a diplomatic tool functioning to further its agenda), the nation is responsible an exorbitant and far greater amount of mismanagement. The US fails spectacularly, and with great frequency - no small number of its many failures, however, result from the immense burden it shoulders (quite idiotically, in my opinion - but I suppose involvement was more pleasant than watching Stalinism march across Europe and Asia) - it is the inheritor of the multitude of failures of an age dominated by Britain and France, who made spectacularly bad decisions, but who bore the burden of the bad decisions made by the Church and the Hapsburgs, by the Italian city states and Spain before that, who bore the burden of the poor decisions made by the, what, Carolingians and the Byzantines before that, and the Romans before that: do you see where I'm going here? Any entity on whom great power rests will falter, and it will falter both because they must balance its responsibilities to itself, and its responsibility to its dependents, and it will falter because it inherits (upon assuming the mantle of great power - or perhaps more appropriately, when great responsibility assumes an entity as its bearer) the ramifications of the failures of its predecessors. I am by no means an apologist for the US (if you want to discuss French colonialism or attempted European tyranny, I'll happily cite British, Italian, German and Dutch examples in France's defense); I am rather a student of history, and history makes evident the futility of judging an action outside of historical context.

And again, my fellow Americans, if your only response to America-bashing at the hands of Europeans is to cite the “wAr o n tEror”, do me a favor – go read your history book, and leave the defense of the honor of our oft wayward nation to someone who both knows what they’re talking about, and can spell.

Uh... What about that blockade on Cuba? You know, that one that's turned it into a third world country...


Do you not know the whole story of the CUBAN MISSLE CRISIS and if thats not what you are talking about my bad because that is all I can think of.

1)true there was advice not go but there also was alot of support especially from BlairActually, if you read the British memos, some of their advice wasn't taken either. In all, there was a lot more advice against than for.
2)Freedom Fries lol that was funny and a bit ridiculous because I have always called them fries. Besides thousands of US soldiers are buried in france because they were helping to liberate them and yet France did not wish to help the US. But hey there call.France did not wish to help the US? Why are they in Afghanistan then?
And what's the point of going out and telling someone "We've liberated you, now do as we say!"? Rather ironic, isn't it?
3)Venezula and Cuba? Dude I haven't heard about the US doing anything to either one but I have heard something about Venezula trying to overthrow us with gass prices or something.Yeah, I suppose several decades of an embargo on Cuba have gone by unnoticed then?
3)Vietnam=policy containment(was handled very badly)(But what about Russia in Afghanastan and all of its previous annexations)I'm not a citizen of Russia. And this is not a bash the criminal in Moscow thread, is it?
4) What about Cuba and Libya and Besides Had not been for the US Germany would not be the Germany it is today and niether would my grandmother meet her Italian American husband.It's a spiteful quote from Rumsfeld. He grouped Germany with two other countries that weren't sending troops to Iraq. If it hadn't been so pathetic, it might have been insulting to be grouped with two of America's worst enemies of the time ;)
I wouldn't be around either. Big deal.
5) there were several reasons for attacking Iraq 1)fear of Weapons of Mass destruction 2)and to finish what we started 10 years before.Ah. Well the nice way to ease a fear of WMDs would be to send inspectors into said country to find out if they have any.

As for the finishing bit, I recall someone that looks similar to our current president that didn't finish it then and his reasons why. They were good reasons that a lot of other people picked up and repeated when the shrub wanted to go for Saddam.

Do you not know the whole story of the CUBAN MISSLE CRISIS and if thats not what you are talking about my bad because that is all I can think of.It's hardly a justification for the eternal blockade.

Do you not know the whole story of the CUBAN MISSLE CRISIS and if thats not what you are talking about my bad because that is all I can think of.

Oh yes, I just dont think it's really all that fair to starve children to death, because of what someone did 44 years ago. Especially as you havent blockaded Russia (who owned the missiles), and one of the reasons for them agreeing, was in case the US tried to help people invade them again... (Or do the job themselves)

Uh... What about that blockade on Cuba? You know, that one that's turned it into a third world country...
Yeah one with only a 1.9% un-employment rate

From the looks of it the hit they took was much bigger in the 90's with the colapse of their biggest traiding partner the USSR was way bigger then anything our boycott managed thus far

Not only that but with a government reorganization they are doing much much better.

Yeah one with only a 1.9% un-employment rate


Shame they're only paid in pennies. I suppose if you only pay people that little, you can afford to 'hire' more staff

Good old Disguised Unemployment - "He's not unemployed! We're paying him to sit around and do nothing"...

Dude yall stop stop stop. yall have no idea what yall are talking about.:headbang:

Yeah one with only a 1.9% un-employment rate

From the looks of it the hit they took was much bigger in the 90's with the colapse of their biggest traiding partner the USSR was way bigger then anything our boycott managed thus far

Not only that but with a government reorganization they are doing much much better.

SO your saying the USSR was way better than the US

SO your saying the USSR was way better than the US
No I am saying they were more of an impact on Cubian economics and their current ecconomic position then the US ever was

Dude yall stop stop stop. yall have no idea what yall are talking about.:headbang:

Really? 'cause y'know, it looks to me like between our grasp of history (read: Google) and Government figures (read: Google), that what we're saying is actually fairly accurate.

Now, there's nothing wrong with just admitting defeat. Infact, it'll probably make me go away, I've things I'm meant to be getting on with ;)

Dude yall stop stop stop. yall have no idea what yall are talking about.:headbang:Indeed. However I know that I know nothing. And that means something.

Really? 'cause y'know, it looks to me like between our grasp of history (read: Google) and Government figures (read: Google), that what we're saying is actually fairly accurate.

Now, there's nothing wrong with just admitting defeat. Infact, it'll probably make me go away, I've things I'm meant to be getting on with ;)
Then go ahead and get on to them since your such a wise tata chip

Indeed. However I know that I know nothing. And that means something.
I will say this you do have some since about you.

maybe they want to rip off our details so they can use our credit cards to pay off their massive deficit.

hmm there's an item on my credit card this month for "UN membership dues $XXXmillion"
Maybe the US should call in all the European nations WWII debts with sixty years of intrest on them

Then go ahead and get on to them since your such a wise tata chip

Nah, I'm having too much fun... Besides, you've still not replied about the whole starving children thing.



Also, tata? wtf? that's got to be some of the worst abuse of language I've seen in a good while

Just please don't lump all Americans into one category. I dislike this administration and can't wait for 2008. I actually have never met a person that does like this administration.
I'm not overweight.
I'm not afraid of terrorists.
I'm not afraid of visitors from other countries.
And if I could, I would not visit the US for years either. But alas, I live here.

Someone asked earlier if it was domestic flights that were used in the 9/11 attacks. And yeah, supposedly they were. But if you look at pictures they don't look like passenger airliners.
I'm still a little iffy on the 9/11 thing.:confused:

Nah, I'm having too much fun... Besides, you've still not replied about the whole starving children thing.



Also, tata? wtf? that's got to be some of the worst abuse of language I've seen in a good while

lol we have brand of potato chips call Wise and I had a funny teacher who when a student said something smart to him he would go well aren't you a wise tata(potato) chip lol its a little joke thing. That is nothing though.And the starving child thing yeah talk to me about that when Africas Economy is wooping China's ass.

Shame they're only paid in pennies. I suppose if you only pay people that little, you can afford to 'hire' more staff

Good old Disguised Unemployment - "He's not unemployed! We're paying him to sit around and do nothing"...
Yet they have a higher gdp reported in 2005 then roughly 130 other countries

Just please don't lump all Americans into one category. I dislike this administration and can't wait for 2008. I actually have never met a person that does like this administration.
I'm not overweight.
I'm not afraid of terrorists.
I'm not afraid of visitors from other countries.
And if I could, I would not visit the US for years either. But alas, I live here.

Someone asked earlier if it was domestic flights that were used in the 9/11 attacks. And yeah, supposedly they were. But if you look at pictures they don't look like passenger airliners.
I'm still a little iffy on the 9/11 thing.:confused:

agreeded I finally get to vote can't wait. Except I would love to stay here but I would like to visit Europe and the rest of the world as well.

Maybe the US should call in all the European nations WWII debts with sixty years of intrest on themDunno about the rest, but Germany's paid back the US for the Marshall Plan.

Yet they have a higher gdp reported in 2005 then roughly 130 other countries


Yeah me and Economics don't get along well I got an 85 average for taht class.

Dunno about the rest, but Germany's paid back the US for the Marshall Plan.


Yeah and I heard it wont be long the US will be pulling its bases out to seriously

agreeded I finally get to vote can't wait. Except I would love to stay here but I would like to visit Europe and the rest of the world as well.

I also didn't vote for Bush and his people. But being able to vote in that election was awesome.

Dunno about the rest, but Germany's paid back the US for the Marshall Plan.
The only country I know of that has fully paid its debts from loans and such is Finland. The UK is going to finish off their WWII debts this year, I think (although they still owe something like 4.4 billion pounds in WWI debts), IM not sure about the others though.

I also didn't vote for Bush and his people. But being able to vote in that election was awesome.


I didn't vote because I couldn't I would have at the time but if I could see the future I might not have thought to vote for him.

More disturbing than the content of any of the accusations leveled on either side of the American/Continental debate is the lack of historical consciousness and criticality evident in either the attacks or the responses.

For the love of god, my fellow Americans: demonstrate some grasp of the fundamentals of English literacy and stop embarrassing me with your poor grammar and incessant misspelling.

To the European contingent, for whom I have no small sympathy given my year spent studying at the University of Bologna, please: the fashionability of America bashing, while well justified under the current regime, stems from a willful ignorance of some of the guiding principles of international relations. The remarks about the First and Second World Wars serve to indict the European educational system's treatment of modern history - a good many European governmental institutions deriving their legitimacy from their foundation in the WWII era, and find it subsequently necessary to support their foundation myth with questionable revisionism, made in the academic arena, but developed in pursuit of political expedience. We speak of the US's WWI, WWII, and Korean War actions as founded in a distinctly American self-interest when clearly anyone with legitimate training in history, European or American, will be forced to say that this is grossly misapprehending the circumstances - the US's actions, particularly in WWII, strike me as the most altruistic of the involved (to a fault, actually, I believe it is the British historian Overy who asserts that Great Britain and the Soviet Union, with Lend-Lease Act support, could have won the war without American intervention, achieving the goals of a stable Western Europe and defensible spheres of influence as dictated by American self-interest all while sparing American lives.) Roosevelt was a good man, one of the last to hold his position, and I put far more faith in his intentions than the zealously racist Anthony Eden (according to accounts offered by his own aids) or the rest of the British FO. More of WWII? More of the incompetent French regime, spectacularly failing in the defense of their people, the complicity of Southern France, the complicity of Mussolini's Italy, of Polish Hiwis, of Eastern European and Baltic nationalists? No one's hands are clean.

So we'll speak of recent US faults - the most prominent of which is its extraordinary failure in the Middle East. But from where did the situation arise? The ramifications British and French colonialism in the wake of WWI, the Sykes Picquot agreement that is the absolute pinnacle of imperialist policy, the British failures in Mandate Palestine, the doubletalk that is the Balfour Declaration and the inordinate, incomprehensible trouble that has cause, the 1939 White Paper that further angered both sides of the population, the British institution of kings in Iraq and Jordan drawn not from the indigenous populations, but rather, in the midst of nationalist turmoil, from opposing populations. Western issues with Egypt stem from French mistreatment of Nasser pursuant to their fear of Pan-Arab revolt in colonial Algeria (yes, I know Algeria was not regarded as a colony but a part of France, but I speak from a realist point of view).

We speak of the comparative grandeur of the EU, yet it had to be founded in spite of the mass of the leaders of the day (famously nationalist, anti-pan-European Charles de Gaulle most notably) and in spite of the European population (who, even now, fear to adopt a useful document simply because the Eurocrats fallaciously termed it a constitution, though in their assumption of understanding, a vast number of Europeans failed to actually read the document and see it is nothing of the sort, voting it down out of xenophobia and a contempt for their current ministers rather than recognizing its utility)
By far the EU's largest and most successful program, the CAP, was founded in an extraordinary feat of French self-interest, to which Great Britain, in a self-interested reprisal, refused to contribute. The supposedly progressive EU refuses Turkish participation because, what, they're incapable of adopting the 96,000 pages of technical harmonization policies? No. Rather, it is because, to quote a French minister, the inclusion of Turkey would "dilute the Christian identity of the EU." Absurd.

US immigration troubles? Entering Dulles is astonishingly similar, to the average Italian, to standing in the non-EU line at Stansted (the nearly fascist extreme) or crossing the Austro-Hungarian border (the border patrol with the consistency of whipped cream extreme). The xenophobic fears of Eastern French labor guarding against a guest worker program, the fears of Austria and Germany regarding polish and Czech labor poised to flood the blue-collar market.

The US's great failures have found, do find, without question, their counterpart on the continent and in Britain - the average American, however, is too bloody uninformed to be able to point it out (indicated by the fact that more people voted for the next American Idol than in any presidential election. I nearly vomited upon hearing that). But this is not an excuse for those Europeans possessed of irrational nationalism (under the veil of, what, purported selflessness? A contempt for "distinctly American" wrongdoing?) to ignore the realities of the international system. Yes, for the unfathomable amount of aid that the United States dispenses (almost entirely as a diplomatic tool functioning to further its agenda), the nation is responsible an exorbitant and far greater amount of mismanagement. The US fails spectacularly, and with great frequency - no small number of its many failures, however, result from the immense burden it shoulders (quite idiotically, in my opinion - but I suppose involvement was more pleasant than watching Stalinism march across Europe and Asia) - it is the inheritor of the multitude of failures of an age dominated by Britain and France, who made spectacularly bad decisions, but who bore the burden of the bad decisions made by the Church and the Hapsburgs, by the Italian city states and Spain before that, who bore the burden of the poor decisions made by the, what, Carolingians and the Byzantines before that, and the Romans before that: do you see where I'm going here? Any entity on whom great power rests will falter, and it will falter both because they must balance its responsibilities to itself, and its responsibility to its dependents, and it will falter because it inherits (upon assuming the mantle of great power - or perhaps more appropriately, when great responsibility assumes an entity as its bearer) the ramifications of the failures of its predecessors. I am by no means an apologist for the US (if you want to discuss French colonialism or attempted European tyranny, I'll happily cite British, Italian, German and Dutch examples in France's defense); I am rather a student of history, and history makes evident the futility of judging an action outside of historical context.

And again, my fellow Americans, if your only response to America-bashing at the hands of Europeans is to cite the “wAr o n tEror”, do me a favor – go read your history book, and leave the defense of the honor of our oft wayward nation to someone who both knows what they’re talking about, and can spell.

Hear hear.

You, sir, have yet to receive any sort of recognition for this beautiful description. As far as I can tell from following postings, your efforts have been mostly ignored. I, for one, applaud your knowledge and overwhelming ability to explain international situations, as well as the explicit comparisons and rationalizations that follow each as a point of authenticity. Well done. I have certainly learnt something from this post, which surprises me, as forums are rarely educational areas. As a fellow history student, I fully intend to look into the topics you covered in more detail.

Again, excellent job.

(As a side note, I agree very readily on the points made in bold. I, too, despise the fact that so few North Americans are actively involved in the structuring and upkeep of their own country.)

The EU court has ruled as illegal the demand that airlines provide the US with full details of all the passengers on board a flight to America within 15 minutes of take off. The court said that handing over the data was not founded on an "appropriate legal basis".

What I find most interesting about this is the repercussions it has for pretty much any American immigration policy you care to mention. One of the primary concerns is that the data was not secure enough and could easily be misused. What good is a strong immigration policy if the data you collect is so vulnerable to hackers or other forms of identity theft?

The US is so busy trying to roar and say "look at us, we're strong on terrorism!" but ultimately it is all about image. When even those people who want to co-operate with the US cannot trust that their assistance will not be abused, how on earth is America ever meant to win this little quest of its?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5028918.stm

Details of a UK hacker fighting extradition to the US for his 'easy' hacking of US defence systems: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4758743.stm


We're paranoid of foreigners, unless you are an illegal alien from the south. We are scared to death of mostly white british folks.....

Well some people here complain that we are 'racist' against blacks/poor people...soooo....:eek: We'll just be racist against everyone I supposed.

We could just demand all the info about 5 minutes out from landing and if they don't tell them to turn around....if we were really mean.

WWI - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.
WWII - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.
Korea - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.
Persian Guilf War - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.
NATO - Forced to, looking out for its own interests.

The US can do a lot of good in the world, but it usually has to be forced to do so first.

Saved your pathetic island.

By the way, how is your German?

You know, it's not the terrorists that make me feel unsafe traveling to the US again...
It's the Americans. Specifically their gov't.
Canada and US has always had an open door policy at the border, and if the Americans think I'm buying into their fancy microchip card system to cross the border, they can [censored].
I've been to the US a lot. I live 30 minutes from the MN border, and loved going down there to watch my beloved Blue Jays play ball with the Twins. I've been to California, and think it'd be fun to see the east coast, too.
But with all the bs coming out of the States, and the garbage they're saying about not trusting anyone who isn't American, I have no use for them, and won't be going there again.

*sniff*

You can stay up there in America Jr. Does not hurt me one bit.

Why is it that most Europeans hate Americans anyways.

Because we don't use the metric system.

I'm not afraid of terrorists.

Im afraid of terrorists, its perfectly normal to be. Most people are afraid of gun-weilding psychos with nerve gas.
Not being PARANOID about terrorists is a different matter.

Listen mate...your country is, compared to most countries in EU, a sperm in the company of adults. You hardly have any history, no roots and despite starting off with nice and high ideals, at a time in history when things were starting to get better, you've fucked up lots of things in amazingly short time. You've given fairly much, but always under the gun. You've done lots of trash, out of free will. You guys are phenomenal at starting wars but you suck and ending them. You love to start new wars despite the old ones are still there. So all in all I think EU is turning out to be pretty ok compared to you. No offense, ofcourse.


Yes, of course. Takes an adult to be insulting, doesn't it?
And I find it hilarious to compare the EU to the United States and pretend it is so much better -- after all, it's just the United States of Europe.

Please, keep copying all things American and then disparaging the nation. We wouldn't send you McCulture if you just didn't buy it.

The EU court has ruled as illegal the demand that airlines provide the US with full details of all the passengers on board a flight to America within 15 minutes of take off. The court said that handing over the data was not founded on an "appropriate legal basis".

What I find most interesting about this is the repercussions it has for pretty much any American immigration policy you care to mention. One of the primary concerns is that the data was not secure enough and could easily be misused. What good is a strong immigration policy if the data you collect is so vulnerable to hackers or other forms of identity theft?

The US is so busy trying to roar and say "look at us, we're strong on terrorism!" but ultimately it is all about image. When even those people who want to co-operate with the US cannot trust that their assistance will not be abused, how on earth is America ever meant to win this little quest of its?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5028918.stm

Details of a UK hacker fighting extradition to the US for his 'easy' hacking of US defence systems: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4758743.stm

I for one welcome our EU court overlords

Quite right too. I belive the planes used for the last terrorsit attack were all domestic flights weren't they?
The "shoe-bomber" flight was international

Hear hear.

You, sir, have yet to receive any sort of recognition for this beautiful description. As far as I can tell from following postings, your efforts have been mostly ignored. I, for one, applaud your knowledge and overwhelming ability to explain international situations, as well as the explicit comparisons and rationalizations that follow each as a point of authenticity. Well done. I have certainly learnt something from this post, which surprises me, as forums are rarely educational areas. As a fellow history student, I fully intend to look into the topics you covered in more detail.

Again, excellent job.

(As a side note, I agree very readily on the points made in bold. I, too, despise the fact that so few North Americans are actively involved in the structuring and upkeep of their own country.)


Oh ye of little faith

Oh ye of little faith

You are quite correct. I have very, very little faith. How did you know that I'm Athiest? :p

The "shoe-bomber" flight was international

Yes and that killed how many people?

Maybe the US should call in all the European nations WWII debts with sixty years of intrest on them

The Uk repays the last of it's debt this year. the reason these debts have not been repaid sooner is that they were lent at very low interst rates so it made no sense to repay them when it was cheaper to pay the interest.

Saved your pathetic island.

By the way, how is your German?
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e283/Slippery__Jim/rofl4ft.gif

Oh, mercy.