NationStates Jolt Archive

So here I am in Jerusalem. early morning. Feeling a bit ambivalent, and a bit homesick, but I'm a baby that way, what to do. So, to distract me from the mosquitoes (why oh why must they exist?), and pangs of phsychological unrest, I thought i'd ask you NSers if there's anything transmittable over this forum that I can do for you from OMFG TEH HOLY LAND. like a virtual postcard, or a description of a particular location or thing you're curious about.
A pretty cool place all in all. The people are rude, the sun is hot, the old men are religious, the girls have long hair, the ground is holy, the water tastes bad, the pop is sugary, the soap operas are rife, the smog is heavy, and the produce is beyond fantastic.
Feel free to generally comment on all things moderately apolicial Israel wise (silence ensues, I know), or about interesting locations you are visiting right now.

I demand you to take pictures of candy wrappers and soda bottles. Andandand.. take more pictures.. and... um.. good morning.

Have fun in the Holy Lands! Check out the local music scene if you are able.

Umm, you could have an orange for me. That way you could help off-set my renewed boycott of Israeli goods.

Dress up as a suicide bomber and run into a synagogue, yelling praise allah.

Just kidding, don't do that.

Where are you staying? I was there a few years back.....

Umm, you could have an orange for me. That way you could help off-set my renewed boycott of Israeli goods.You're doing that? How ridiculous (by te way, does your boycott extend to technology, innovation, and science such as, {just as an example} Phillips medical equiptment like MRIs and CT scans for which the R&D takes place here?). And it isn't the right season for oranges, so no can do.

Where are you staying? I was there a few years back.....I'm staying at my uncle's right now, which is right next to mahane yehuda market, in one of the old enclosed neighborhoods (ours is called Ohel Moshe) now being overrun by rich americans. Really great central place, I love it here. Where were you?

A picture of the Western Wall/Dome of the Rock wouldn't go wrong.

Have fun in the Holy Lands! Check out the local music scene if you are able.
I shall. there's an incredible amount of cultural activity in jerusalem actually, in all of the arts so there's alot to choose from. there's actually a nationwide festival of arts going on right now so i hope to attend some performances. One that im eyeing is in an ancient amphitheatre - it's traditional Jewish melodies (often from prayer) sung and reinterpreted by some of israel's most current young singers. could be interesting.

You're doing that? How ridiculous

Well, it's part of being a good person, not supporting governments and countries who build walls.

(by te way, does your boycott extend to technology, innovation, and science such as, {just as an example} Phillips medical equiptment like MRIs and CT scans for which the R&D takes place here?).

For myself, I avoid Israeli goods across the board, but my politics never influence my work.

And it isn't the right season for oranges, so no can do.

Well, have a fig, or bagel, or knish, or whatever. Oy, vey, don't be such a kvetcher, tchotchkala.

So here I am in Jerusalem. early morning. Feeling a bit ambivalent, and a bit homesick, but I'm a baby that way, what to do. So, to distract me from the mosquitoes (why oh why must they exist?), and pangs of phsychological unrest, I thought i'd ask you NSers if there's anything transmittable over this forum that I can do for you from OMFG TEH HOLY LAND. like a virtual postcard, or a description of a particular location or thing you're curious about.
A pretty cool place all in all. The people are rude, the sun is hot, the old men are religious, the girls have long hair, the ground is holy, the water tastes bad, the pop is sugary, the soap operas are rife, the smog is heavy, and the produce is beyond fantastic.
Feel free to generally comment on all things moderately apolicial Israel wise (silence ensues, I know), or about interesting locations you are visiting right now.


Go to Ben Yahudas street in Jerusalem...go to the Sbarros there, and eat the pizza. Tell me if its as bad and unlike the sbarros in America as it was when I had it there around Christmas.

Well, it's part of being a good person, not supporting governments and countries who build walls. How is eating a Jaffa orange supporting a government of any sort? You are merely supporting a farmer who is Israeli. The fact that I don't support America's government, and dissagree with most of their policies doesn't mean that it woud make sense for me to cut off my economic cooperation with Americans as a whole.
For myself, I avoid Israeli goods across the board, but my politics never influence my work. well, if you avoid israeli goods across the board, you are allowing your politics to do just that. If you are making exceptions for items that are important to you, there goes your consistancy, and your boycott of vegetables is merely symbolic. There are more precise ways to express your dissent for israeli policy than refusing to use a select few of Israel's more conspicuous contributions to the world's economy.

Tell the folks there, that a fellow NSing American fully supports their fight against terrorists. ME! (http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/lilly/hmm3grin3thumborange.gif)

Go to Ben Yahudas street in Jerusalem...go to the Sbarros there, and eat the pizza. Tell me if its as bad and unlike the sbarros in America as it was when I had it there around Christmas.Well, I've never tasted that type of Pizza in the states, since I'm canadian, and I'm not familiar with it. Though i think pizza isn't the specialty here so I would hazard the guess that you are correct (still). But, I'll give it a try next time I'm around there. (probably tomorrow).

Well, I've never tasted that type of Pizza in the states, since I'm canadian, and I'm not familiar with it. Though i think pizza isn't the specialty here so I would hazard the guess that you are correct (still). But, I'll give it a try next time I'm around there. (probably tomorrow).

Alright....you should also make your way to the Old City and check out Davids Tower.

How is eating a Jaffa orange supporting a government of any sort? You are merely supporting a farmer who is Israeli.

Who pays taxes to the Israeli government, and supports Israeli economy.

The fact that I don't support America's government, and dissagree with most of their policies doesn't mean that it woud make sense for me to cut off my economic cooperation with Americans as a whole.

You're just not committed enough.

well, if you avoid israeli goods across the board, you are allowing your politics to do just that. If you are making exceptions for items that are important to you, there goes your consistancy, and your boycott of vegetables is merely symbolic. There are more precise ways to express your dissent for israeli policy than refusing to use a select few of Israel's more conspicuous contributions to the world's economy.

I avoid them for myself - I will not use Israeli programmes, I will not purchase Israeli goods, I will evade having my money go to anything Israeli, as far as I know. If you think all I boycott is fruit, and if you think that one percent of inconsistency erases the other 99% where I do manage to avoid Israeli goods, then you're just silly. Just because I may not be able to always avoid them, doesn't mean that I should give it up the rest of the time.

That's what I've never gotten about people who criticise those who avoid something, be it vegans, or whoever, this assumption that the rest of the effort is effaced if it cannot be pursued 100%.

However, having my politics influence my job would be grossly unethical.

Alright....you should also make your way to the Old City and check out Davids Tower.I probably will at some point, but I've done the tourist circuit so many times over the years that I think I'll be trying to spend more time checking out local events. That is, when I'm not spending way too long at the lab.

Candy wrappers :(

Who pays taxes to the Israeli government, and supports Israeli economy.

...

You're just not committed enough.no, I just think that starving an economy isn't the right way to oppose political decisions. Making people less prosperous doesn't usually change their minds in your favour - on the contrary, it is a simplistic measure that further destabilizes Israel, and by extension, the territories which are more or less dependent on Israel economically. Giving a generalized 'fuck you' to israel is a far cry from a meaningful impetus for improvement (in whatever imaginable direction you think improvement is needed). Cutting out Israel's economy is basically telling it that it has no right to make a living - this is much different than boycotting the anthem, or writting angry letters, or attending rallies, or whatever other political activities express dissent. Just curious, but do you boycott every country that has policies you disagree with? do your decisions extend to issues relating to the treatment of women, foreigners, freedom of the press, internal military opression, and other issues? if so, well no more stuff from china, all the arab countries, most of africa, russia, possibly france and the US. If not, why have you, (and Europeans in general) chosen to single Israel out for a self-riteously bestowed spanking?

I will not use Israeli programmes, I will not purchase Israeli goods, I will evade having my money go to anything Israelino more ICQ then.
no more drip tape irrigation in any swedish agriculture.
there are many useful and cool innovations and patents from Israel that are worthwhile. Why would you involve politics with apolititcal, valuable, good design?

Candy wrappers :(ok ok, give me a bit of time

no, I just think that starving an economy isn't the right way to oppose political decisions.

And I don't think Israel deserves my money.

If not, why have you, (and Europeans in general) chosen to single Israel out for a self-riteously bestowed spanking?

Because Israel is building itself a nice, little apartheid system, and a FUCKING WALL! We boycotted South Africa as children, and Israel will be no different, at least not for me.

You know what. Don't eat that knish for me.

Because Israel is building itself a nice, little apartheid system, and a FUCKING WALL! We boycotted South Africa as children, and Israel will be no different, at least not for me.

Didn't quite work with us though...we were even expelled from the Commonwealth. The country was too rich to care though. :p

Didn't quite work with us though...we were even expelled from the Commonwealth. The country was too rich to care though. :p

It didn't have our family's money, and that's good enough for me.

ok ok, give me a bit of time
Thank you :fluffle:

Because Israel is building itself a nice, little apartheid system, and a FUCKING WALL! We boycotted South Africa as children, and Israel will be no different, at least not for me.

You know what. Don't eat that knish for me.Well, I knew that one was coming. You didn't answer any of my questions. The situation in israel isn't similar to the one in South Africa. It's been discussed here plenty of times, and it's a bit burdensome to get into - but essentially, keeping possibly dangerous non-citiznes out on the basis of nationality isn't the same as racially motivated discrimination against citizens. Every country has a right, and does on a regular bassis, treat foreign nationals differently on the basis of estimated average threat. The estimated average threat of palestinians is high, a drastic, and highly problematic measure had been taken, but it is in no way similar to South Africa.

Just because a particular mold was followed then, and its nice and comfy, and easy to follow, and clear cut, doesn't mean you can paste it onto a completely different situation. Your reaction is irrational.

and I don't like knishes anyway.

Take some pictures of some Israelis. I heard from Kahta/VoteEarly/Whittier that they have horns.

Well, I knew that one was coming. You didn't answer any of my questions. The situation in israel isn't similar to the one in South Africa. It's been discussed here plenty of times, and it's a bit burdensome to get into - but essentially, keeping possibly dangerous non-citiznes out on the basis of nationality isn't the same as racially motivated discrimination against citizens. Every country has a right, and does on a regular bassis, treat foreign nationals differently on the basis of estimated average threat. The estimated average threat of palestinians is high, a drastic, and highly problematic measure had been taken, but it is in no way similar to South Africa.

Just because a particular mold was followed then, and its nice and comfy, and easy to follow, and clear cut, doesn't mean you can paste it onto a completely different situation. Your reaction is irrational.

and I don't like knishes anyway.


lol, well said...have a great time in Israel!

Fass- I believe it was the Israeli's that also invented the cell phone (thats a biggy), aol instant messenger, certain Windoes software, Pentium chips, and firewall software; better add those little novelties to the list of the boycott!

lol, well said...have a great time in Israel!

Fass- I believe it was the Israeli's that also invented the cell phone (thats a biggy), aol instant messenger, certain Windoes software, Pentium chips, and firewall software; better add those little novelties to the list of the boycott!
So let me get this right:
Because a company from a country came up with something useful, we should therefore wholeheartedly support everything that country does, no matter how repugnant we personally or politically find it?
Hmm...never thought of it quite that way before.
Thank you.
All my moral concerns have now just vanished. From now on, I'll assess my feelings towards a country's political oppressions based on what they've given the world.
Which means from now I'll hate only Kiribati. I mean, what have those bastards ever given us, eh?


Incidently, Dr Martin Cooper invented the first portable handset and the first person to make a call on a portable cell phone in April 1973. He is considered the inventor of the cellphone.
Born and raised in the US (Chicago to be precise). Can't be too sure of his heritage, but that's not a particularly Jewish sounding surname there.

So let me get this right:
Because a company from a country came up with something useful, we should therefore wholeheartedly support everything that country does, no matter how repugnant we personally or politically find it?
Hmm...never thought of it quite that way before.
Thank you.
All my moral concerns have now just vanished. From now on, I'll assess my feelings towards a country's political oppressions based on what they've given the world. well, you've completely turned around his/her meaning. They did not claim that you should support a country on the basis of its inventions, but merely listed some items that add to the absurdity of boycotting a country's inventions as a reuslt of political dissent. You have independently assigned to the previous poster a claim that wasn't made.

well, you've completely turned around his/her meaning. They did not claim that you should support a country on the basis of its inventions, but merely listed some items that add to the absurdity of boycotting a country's inventions as a reuslt of political dissent. You have independently assigned to the previous poster a claim that wasn't made.
Well, no. You're saying that because there's some things I can't help but use, therefore I should feel obiliged to use everything that country produces and not boycott anything.
And you're accusing me of absurdity?

... about interesting locations you are visiting right now.
Seen any old Christian pilgrimage sites?

Seen any old Christian pilgrimage sites?sure. In the Old City there's the site of Jesus's supposed burial, (in a curch, I forget the name) and the Cardo - where some of the passion was said to have taken place. This country is saturated with various pilgramage sites.

Well, no. You're saying that because there's some things I can't help but use, therefore I should feel obiliged to use everything that country produces and not boycott anything.
And you're accusing me of absurdity?You were putting words in his/her mouth.
Now you've changed the tack. I am simply saying that boycotting stuff from a country you disagree with is one of the more absurd measures you could take to express political dissent. This is highlighted by the fact that many everyday and important items are connected to regimes we may dissaprove of, and that boycotting them is absurd. As I was saying before, the implications of a boycott in this type of situation are not positive to your cause.

Post a picture of the town here please. And some of the people if you can.

I wanna go!!!!!!!

So let me get this right:
Because a company from a country came up with something useful, we should therefore wholeheartedly support everything that country does, no matter how repugnant we personally or politically find it?
Hmm...never thought of it quite that way before.
Thank you.
All my moral concerns have now just vanished. From now on, I'll assess my feelings towards a country's political oppressions based on what they've given the world.
Which means from now I'll hate only Kiribati. I mean, what have those bastards ever given us, eh?


Incidently, Dr Martin Cooper invented the first portable handset and the first person to make a call on a portable cell phone in April 1973. He is considered the inventor of the cellphone.
Born and raised in the US (Chicago to be precise). Can't be too sure of his heritage, but that's not a particularly Jewish sounding surname there.


Lol lemme get this straight for everyone, btw thanks Kreitz...

I was simply pointing out to another NSer who is boycotting Israel that if he/she really feels that strongly that he/she should go all out instead of just picking and choosing which Israeli products and inventions to put on the boycott list. And as for the cell phone, lemme rephrase...Israel invented some of the integral technology that makes cell phone use possible and without that, cell phones as we know it would not exist.

ps I'm a He, lol

sure. In the Old City there's the site of Jesus's supposed burial, (in a curch, I forget the name) and the Cardo - where some of the passion was said to have taken place. This country is saturated with various pilgramage sites.

The church where Jesus is supposedly buried I believe is called the Church of the Holy Sepulchre; it's also where he was supposedly crucified. There are many caves and offshoots inside the actual church where he is said to have been buried. It's really an amazing place to visit. Insane amounts of history.

I'd like to visit the city of my name-sake ...

Well, I knew that one was coming. You didn't answer any of my questions. The situation in israel isn't similar to the one in South Africa. It's been discussed here plenty of times, and it's a bit burdensome to get into - but essentially, keeping possibly dangerous non-citiznes out on the basis of nationality isn't the same as racially motivated discrimination against citizens. Every country has a right, and does on a regular bassis, treat foreign nationals differently on the basis of estimated average threat. The estimated average threat of palestinians is high, a drastic, and highly problematic measure had been taken, but it is in no way similar to South Africa.



This forgets discrimination against Arab-Israelis, and the treatement of Arabs in relation to the illegal settlers in the occupied territories, IMO. Neither would there be the same objections to the wall if it strictly followed the 1967 borders, as thats internationally recognised Israeli territory.

Whatever you do, no matter how drunk you get, *DO NOT* stop to piss at the Kotel .... I made that mistake once ..... once.

It's really an amazing place to visit. Insane amounts of history.

You can't call it history when the person in question never existed. It would be like visiting the tomb of King Arthur or Harry Potter's house.

You can't call it history when the person in question never existed. It would be like visiting the tomb of King Arthur or Harry Potter's house.
shoooo shoo away from my thread. No denying, Jesus, Moses, or any other dude avec beard allowed. No saying 'piss' in the same sentance as "kotel" any more either. Just be polite, ok?

@ Nodinia, The issue of the Israeli Arabs is seperate - they are not equally treated as yet, however, they do not excercise their rightful political influence by not voting either. The scale of mistreatment, or rather neglect, there, does not approach the level of brutality in South Africa, nor is it racially motivated. Rather, there are a set of percievedly conflicting interests within Israel with regard to this large population that create a very reprehensible situation. Also, I think fass was talking about the wall as an 'apharteid wall' (not exact wording) which I was attempting to adress.

I'm going out to take some pics soon, so update is forthcoming.

@ Nodinia, The issue of the Israeli Arabs is seperate - they are not equally treated as yet, however, they do not excercise their rightful political influence by not voting either. The scale of mistreatment, or rather neglect, there, does not approach the level of brutality in South Africa, nor is it racially motivated. Rather, there are a set of percievedly conflicting interests within Israel with regard to this large population that create a very reprehensible situation. Also, I think fass was talking about the wall as an 'apharteid wall' (not exact wording) which I was attempting to adress.

I'm going out to take some pics soon, so update is forthcoming.

Within Israel its a second class citizenship and the Bedouin in particular are treated like shite, lets face it. However within the occupied territrories its a two tier system and the tier on the bottom is the Palestinian one. Theres the confiscations, settler roads, the settlements themselves, the curfews, checkpoints, beatings and settler violence.

The wall is "apartheid" because its used as another weapon against the Arabs, as opposed to use strictly as a security measure.

I've heard nothing but terrible things about Israel from its founding on stolen land to its current genocide. As I have no reason to doubt these claims (they're from leftist sources, so it isn't like they're neo-nazis), I'm inclined to oppose Israel. I have heard that you can go to prison if you get caught listening to Wagner there. Is that true?

do you speak hebrew or is it pretty easy to get around with english there?

No Letila, not to my knowledge. They offered a number of CDs and musical scores at the bookstore at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, including books about and pieces by Wagner, Mahler, and other composers not renowned for their pro-Semitism.

Of course, personally I'd look very strangely upon anyone who listened to Wagner for fun, or voluntarily, but that's just me.

Kreitz, enjoy yourself, and visit that Dr. Somebody or Other national park, or whatever kind of park it is, on the hill opposite the Old City. It has good views of the entire area, an amphitheatre, the remains of old aqueducts from Roman times, and occasionally donkeys; just thought I'd mention it because it's one of the few places in the city whose location I remember. Immerse yourself freely in the culture as well; plenty to do in Jerusalem besides posting aimlessly on NS. For instance, I got to carry around huge buckets of flowers. :p

do you speak hebrew or is it pretty easy to get around with english there?
Practically everyone knows english there, or at least a large percentage. There are also a lot of signs in English, especially in a large city like Jerusalem or Tel Aviv which has a lot of polyglots. Street signs, for instance, are printed in Hebrew, Arabic, and English, not always in that order.

I've heard nothing but terrible things about Israel from its founding on stolen land to its current genocide. As I have no reason to doubt these claims (they're from leftist sources, so it isn't like they're neo-nazis), I'm inclined to oppose Israel. I have heard that you can go to prison if you get caught listening to Wagner there. Is that true?
Israel is getting more Conservative by the minute. You don't need to be a Nazi to hate them, Liberals hate them too. As for Wagner, I can't say, but I highly doubt it. The origin of Israel goes back to WW2, when all the Jews migrated there to avoid the Nazis. The Muslims didn't like it, and eventually the UN divided the land up. One small portion for the Jews. Immediately, 5 or 6 nations declared war on Israel, and Israel did the kicking, and won much territory. Maybe you can imagine what the Jews felt like when the enemy said "Hitler didn't do his job. You'll see a real Holocaust Jews! We'll extirminate your race! Scum of the Earth, Allah will help us destroy your unholyness!" and so-on just 3 years after the Holocaust.

Israel took a stand. Now, I rely more on them to fight terror, then the U.S.

I look forward to seeing pictures if you wish to share, from your trip. Enjoy yourself and keep us posted. How long are you there?

My street. It is pedestrians only, and in one of the oldest neighborhoods that were built outside jerusalem's city walls. You can see some building materials - alot of renewal of old buiding is occuring in this area in the past years.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/maayan009/4d5888ec.jpg

more of the 'hood. Many of the inhabitants of the area are quite orthodox, like the man walking here in the picture. Most are religious. Some are American, and others are sort of average and secular types, like me.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/maayan009/79baea3f.jpg
Busy Agrippas Street at dusk. This street contains several enterances to hte city's open market (which I haven't had time to upload pics of yet).
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/maayan009/a1c0dc71.jpg

and, as promised, some Israeli candy in a shop. (wrappers included.)
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a140/maayan009/8fc16831.jpg

Within Israel its a second class citizenship and the Bedouin in particular are treated like shite, lets face it. However within the occupied territrories its a two tier system and the tier on the bottom is the Palestinian one. Theres the confiscations, settler roads, the settlements themselves, the curfews, checkpoints, beatings and settler violence.

The wall is "apartheid" because its used as another weapon against the Arabs, as opposed to use strictly as a security measure.It may seem crude but the fact remains that the territores are not part of israel proper, and its inhabitants, unless they happen to be citizens, are not entitled to benefits that citizenship entails. Israel is getting out of the territories precisely to uncomplicate its relationship with the boundless neediness and insufficiency of Palestinian governance. the causes for the situation are obviously complex, and there's plenty of blame to assign lavishly all around. However, apharteid comparison is still not justified. As anyone who has spoken to israelis who reside in areas bordering the territories knows, the fence/wall is utterly necessary for security right now, not just in terms of bombs, but theft and agricultural sabotauge also. Its placement is obviously political, and represents a more or less pragmatic border, after swaps have taken place. anyway, this thread wasn't supposed to be political, but i see to hell with that, eh?

back on topic then:I look forward to seeing pictures if you wish to share, from your trip. Enjoy yourself and keep us posted. How long are you there?three months. I will try to post pictures now and again when I remember. Any other requests?


As for the park Czardas, I'm trying to remember the name, but can't either. Nice though.

Hey, Dear. I sure do hope you're having a wonderful time. Wish I could be there with you.

back on topic then:three months. I will try to post pictures now and again when I remember. Any other requests?
I'm going back in August then, although I think we'll be staying more in the south; I have relatives near Ashkelon. If I do visit Jerusalem I'll probably be spending more time in the Hebrew University (the Mount of Olives campus).


As for the park Czardas, I'm trying to remember the name, but can't either. Nice though.
Yeah, I don't know of anyone else who remembers the name offhand for that matter. It was donated by a Dr. somebody and his wife, probably American Jews, I keep thinking Roth or Gold something. But for the life of me I cannot remember what it was...

I'm going back in August then, although I think we'll be staying more in the south; I have relatives near Ashkelon. If I do visit Jerusalem I'll probably be spending more time in the Hebrew University (the Mount of Olives campus).you mean Mount Scopus, right? I'm at Givat Ram, where most of the science faculty is, but really they're only one bus ride away.

Hey, Dear. I sure do hope you're having a wonderful time. Wish I could be there with you.Hi love. I'm alright....a bit different here is all.

you mean Mount Scopus, right? I'm at Givat Ram, where most of the science faculty is, but really they're only one bus ride away.
Mount Scopus, whatever. :p

Israel is getting more Conservative by the minute. You don't need to be a Nazi to hate them, Liberals hate them too. As for Wagner, I can't say, but I highly doubt it. The origin of Israel goes back to WW2, when all the Jews migrated there to avoid the Nazis. The Muslims didn't like it, and eventually the UN divided the land up. One small portion for the Jews. Immediately, 5 or 6 nations declared war on Israel, and Israel did the kicking, and won much territory. Maybe you can imagine what the Jews felt like when the enemy said "Hitler didn't do his job. You'll see a real Holocaust Jews! We'll extirminate your race! Scum of the Earth, Allah will help us destroy your unholyness!" and so-on just 3 years after the Holocaust.

Israel took a stand. Now, I rely more on them to fight terror, then the U.S.


The modern state of Israel goes back to the late 19th century when eastern European Jews were forced out of Russia and Poland (Pale of Settlement) due to rabid anti-semitism. They had no where to go so they went to this land then called Palestine which had a few hundred thousand (figure disputed) arab muslims living there. That was the first Aliyah (aliyah - coming from the hebrew word Allah - to go up). There have been five Aliyah or Aliyot, the most recent being the 1 million Russians moving to Israel between this very day and the fall of the Soviet Union.

Within Israel its a second class citizenship and the Bedouin in particular are treated like shite, lets face it. However within the occupied territrories its a two tier system and the tier on the bottom is the Palestinian one. Theres the confiscations, settler roads, the settlements themselves, the curfews, checkpoints, beatings and settler violence.

The wall is "apartheid" because its used as another weapon against the Arabs, as opposed to use strictly as a security measure.


There is no second class citizenship in Israel. All citizens have equal rights and a vote in the Knesset (Israeli Parliament). To say that there is zero anti-Arab sentiment in Israel would be a lie just as it would be to claim that there aren't any Americans who dislike blacks. However, there is no government sanctioned discrimination against Arabs. As for the bedouin, I've been to various bedouin camps in my 3 visits to Israel and they by no means were treated with any less respect than anyone else in Israel and were very nice to us as well. I actually stayed overnight in a bedouin camp on one of my visits and engaged in conversation with bedouins and israelis. They are treated as equals.

Settlements have never been an obstacle to peace as they have never gone in, uprooted a population and settled stolen land or homes. The land settlements rest on was empty before the settlements were built. Peace was made with Jordan and Egypt and settlements never came up; neither did the issue of the refugees which Egypt and Jordan refused to deal with even though they put them in the camps and refused to integrate them into society with the hopes of one day obliterating Israel and then taking ISRAEL's land.

It's interesting that there was no "Palestinian nationalism" when the "Palestinian" land was under control by the Jordanians(West Bank) and the Egyptians (Gaza) in the years following Israel's War of Independance and then leading up to the 6 Day War (48-67). Why was there no cry for a Palestinian state during "Jordanian and Egyptians 'occupation.'"

Lastly, why did the Jordanians, Egyptians, Lebanese, and Syrians force the Palesitnians into derelict refugee camps after the '48 war and refuse to provide real aid to the Palestinian people in the years following.. Propoganda tool to use against Israel? sounds like it to me. It seems that after the Arab countries expelled over 1,000,000 Jews from the various Middle Eastern countries without providing any type of consolation after '48 would leave quite a lot of vacated Jewish homes to occupy with "refugees."

Sorry for the politics Kreitz...I couldn't control myself...

P.S. It was only renamed Palestine once the British took over after WWI. Prior to that it was just simply land that was part of the Ottoman Empire that was commonly referred to as part of Syria (as it was under the Umaayad Caliphate in what I believe was the 8th century? ). It was first named Palestine by the Romans; after the Phillistines.

Israel is getting more Conservative by the minute. You don't need to be a Nazi to hate them, Liberals hate them too. As for Wagner, I can't say, but I highly doubt it. The origin of Israel goes back to WW2, when all the Jews migrated there to avoid the Nazis. The Muslims didn't like it, and eventually the UN divided the land up. One small portion for the Jews. Immediately, 5 or 6 nations declared war on Israel, and Israel did the kicking, and won much territory. Maybe you can imagine what the Jews felt like when the enemy said "Hitler didn't do his job. You'll see a real Holocaust Jews! We'll extirminate your race! Scum of the Earth, Allah will help us destroy your unholyness!" and so-on just 3 years after the Holocaust.

Israel took a stand. Now, I rely more on them to fight terror, then the U.S.

You're just trying to wreck his thread, aren't you?

There is no second class citizenship in Israel. All citizens have equal rights and a vote in the Knesset (Israeli Parliament). To say that there is zero anti-Arab sentiment in Israel would be a lie just as it would be to claim that there aren't any Americans who dislike blacks. However, there is no government sanctioned discrimination against Arabs. As for the bedouin, I've been to various bedouin camps in my 3 visits to Israel and they by no means were treated with any less respect than anyone else in Israel and were very nice to us as well. I actually stayed overnight in a bedouin camp on one of my visits and engaged in conversation with bedouins and israelis. They are treated as equals..

Not according to the US state department.http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27929.htm


Settlements have never been an obstacle to peace as they have never gone in, uprooted a population and settled stolen land or homes. ..

Settlements have driven roads through Arab fields with no-go areas either side, confiscated land, and been responsible for the breakdown of the Oslo accord. They are the most divisive of all the issues. And they breach the Geneva convention and international law on the side. They are the constant, burning match.


It's interesting that there was no "Palestinian nationalism" when the "Palestinian" land was under control by the Jordanians(West Bank) and the Egyptians (Gaza) in the years following Israel's War of Independance and then leading up to the 6 Day War (48-67). Why was there no cry for a Palestinian state during "Jordanian and Egyptians 'occupation.'" ..

The Palestinians were only beginning to organise themselves - the PLO barely predate the 1967 war, for instance.


Lastly, why did the Jordanians, Egyptians, Lebanese, and Syrians force the Palesitnians into derelict refugee camps after the '48 war and refuse to provide real aid to the Palestinian people in the years following.. ..

The same reason Albania wouldnt let refugees from Kosovo permanently settle after the were driven out by Serbian forces - it rewards aggression, and the idea was for them to return.


Propoganda tool to use against Israel? sounds like it to me. It seems that after the Arab countries expelled over 1,000,000 Jews from the various Middle Eastern countries without providing any type of consolation after '48 would leave quite a lot of vacated Jewish homes to occupy with "refugees."..

The expulsions of the Sephradic Jews was a series of unjustifiable crimes which don't justify whatsover the treatment of Palestinians. The Germans (and indeed Russians) crimes against the Jews didnt justify their expulsion and settlement elsewhere, and I don't think anybody could argue the depth of eithers guilt there. Besides, we are talking about areas outside Israels international borders here.

So here I am in Jerusalem. early morning. Feeling a bit ambivalent, and a bit homesick, but I'm a baby that way, what to do. So, to distract me from the mosquitoes (why oh why must they exist?), and pangs of phsychological unrest, I thought i'd ask you NSers if there's anything transmittable over this forum that I can do for you from OMFG TEH HOLY LAND. like a virtual postcard, or a description of a particular location or thing you're curious about.
A pretty cool place all in all. The people are rude, the sun is hot, the old men are religious, the girls have long hair, the ground is holy, the water tastes bad, the pop is sugary, the soap operas are rife, the smog is heavy, and the produce is beyond fantastic.
Feel free to generally comment on all things moderately apolicial Israel wise (silence ensues, I know), or about interesting locations you are visiting right now.

Tell everyone that Steve says, "Hi!".

*saves photo as background*

I want to go to the holy candy tables now.. :(

Not according to the US state department.http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27929.htm

Palestinians are not citizens and there is no reason to afford them any such right just as you would not be afforded the same rights in Israel as a citizen would. It just so happens that terrorists infiltrate Israel in large numbers from the places where Palestinians live so security is much more stringent when it comes to them. They are however, given Israeli tax dollars amongst other funds from Israel.

Settlements have driven roads through Arab fields with no-go areas either side, confiscated land, and been responsible for the breakdown of the Oslo accord. They are the most divisive of all the issues. And they breach the Geneva convention and international law on the side. They are the constant, burning match.

They are not a breach of the Geneva Convention or International law. A country is allowed to conquer land in a war in which they are not the aggressor in order to secure its borders from constant attack. I believe the breakdown of the Oslo accords was due to Arafats continued aggression and non stop terror campaign against Israel, not to mention there were settlements before Oslo.
FACT: there were more terror attacks against Israel in the five year following the signing of Oslo than there were the fifteen years preceeding Oslo COMBINED.

The Palestinians were only beginning to organise themselves - the PLO barely predate the 1967 war, for instance.

I think this is the first thing we agree upon. The Palestinians only became Palestinians after the '67 war in which the Arabs realized they could not win a decisive military victory against Israel and had to use the Palestinians as a tool.


The expulsions of the Sephradic Jews was a series of unjustifiable crimes which don't justify whatsover the treatment of Palestinians. The Germans (and indeed Russians) crimes against the Jews didnt justify their expulsion and settlement elsewhere, and I don't think anybody could argue the depth of eithers guilt there. Besides, we are talking about areas outside Israels international borders here.

Israel's international borders are disputed; as is reinforced by UN Security Council Resolution 242 which states that Israel must withdraw from territories occupied after the 6 Day war but never specifies which territories or how much nor does it give a clear border; it also calls for the end to hostilities and recognition of Israel; both of which have not happened.

Where the hell is page 5?

Now its there...........

Israel's international borders are disputed; as is reinforced by UN Security Council Resolution 242 which states that Israel must withdraw from territories occupied after the 6 Day war but never specifies which territories or how much nor does it give a clear border; it also calls for the end to hostilities and recognition of Israel; both of which have not happened.

It doesnt have to give a clear border, because Israel had clear borders and its them there borders it has to get back behind. Egypt and Jordan both have peace treaties, and as the main player in the region is Egypt, that renders Syria alone and no threat. Besides, Israel is a nuclear power. Thats a fairly big stick to have to hand.

In addition, the idea of continuing occupation as a "buffer" strategy falls rather flat when theres civillian suburbs being built in the area.

Not according to the US state department.http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27929.htm

*innocently recalls the occasion, not two weeks ago on this board, when the U.S. state department was used a a source to substantiate the discteditation of comparisons of israel to apharteid, and was viciously ridiculed as an illegitimate source*
*listens to current silence*
*decides there must be something wrong*

Nodinia- My rebuttle to your comments now make much more sense as I have edited my prior post by adding in the quote markers and such...I enjoy our debates so if you could go and read that and then respond, that'd be sweet.

*innocently recalls the occasion, not two weeks ago on this board, when the U.S. state department was used a a source to substantiate the discteditation of comparisons of israel to apharteid, and was viciously ridiculed as an illegitimate source*
*listens to current silence*
*decides there must be something wrong*

I'm glad you brought that up. I was actually the one that brought the US State Dept's 2002 Report on Global Anti-Semitism and the EUMC's evaluation of Anti-Semitism, both concluding that a comparison of Israel to Apartheid, etc. was anti-Semitic. And it was, as you write, viciously ridiculed as an illigitmate source. However, now, it seems to be that the US State Dept is an optimal source - when used to criticize Israel.

This is the type of double-standard that is the hallmark of the new forms of anti-Semitism. Using a source to support the anti-Israel agenda, then rejecting the exact same source when it contradicts the anti-Israel agenda. Ironically, both reports mentioned also highlight this mode of reasoning and thought as anti-Semitic, as well. It demonstrates a direct and corrupting bias against Israel.

I'm glad you brought that up. I was actually the one that brought the US State Dept's 2002 Report on Global Anti-Semitism and the EUMC's evaluation of Anti-Semitism, both concluding that a comparison of Israel to Apartheid, etc. was anti-Semitic. And it was, as you write, viciously ridiculed as an illigitmate source. However, now, it seems to be that the US State Dept is an optimal source - when used to criticize Israel.

This is the type of double-standard that is the hallmark of the new forms of anti-Semitism. Using a source to support the anti-Israel agenda, then rejecting the exact same source when it contradicts the anti-Israel agenda. Ironically, both reports mentioned also highlight this mode of reasoning and thought as anti-Semitic, as well. It demonstrates a direct and corrupting bias against Israel.

You've used "anti-semite"/"anti-semitic" 5 times in two paragraphs. Record?

Equating legitimate criticism of a state to racism/sectarianism is not only wrong, its mad.

Zimbabwe is run by a lunatic. Mugabes bulldozing of pro-opposition areas is an act of childish spite and thuggery. Does this make me a racist?

Tonly Blair is a two faced hypocritical shit, whose smug "never reach the eyes" grin seeks to gloss over his hijacking of a partys support to the ends of a small clique, whose intentions were far removed from that of its grass roots supporters. Do I know have it in for "whitey"?

Now please either argue the points raised, or be shush. People are trying to talk.

So here I am in Jerusalem. early morning. Feeling a bit ambivalent, and a bit homesick, but I'm a baby that way, what to do. So, to distract me from the mosquitoes (why oh why must they exist?), and pangs of phsychological unrest, I thought i'd ask you NSers if there's anything transmittable over this forum that I can do for you from OMFG TEH HOLY LAND. like a virtual postcard, or a description of a particular location or thing you're curious about.
A pretty cool place all in all. The people are rude, the sun is hot, the old men are religious, the girls have long hair, the ground is holy, the water tastes bad, the pop is sugary, the soap operas are rife, the smog is heavy, and the produce is beyond fantastic.
Feel free to generally comment on all things moderately apolicial Israel wise (silence ensues, I know), or about interesting locations you are visiting right now.

Hey!

Any chance you'd be in Tel-Aviv next week?

You've used "anti-semite"/"anti-semitic" 5 times in two paragraphs. Record?

Equating legitimate criticism of a state to racism/sectarianism is not only wrong, its mad.
*snip*


As I've already cited, the US State Dept's Report on Global Anti-Semitism and the EUMC state that comparing Israel to Apartheid is anti-Semitic, not legitimate criticism. So, if you decide to use these groups as sources, do it across the board and not just when it fits your agenda.

Kreitzmoorland pointed out how these very sources were criticized as being inaccurate and invalid when they declare that such is not legitimate criticism, but anti-Semitism, yet these same "invalid" sources are used by the same people criticizing them when it fits their anti-Israel agenda.

You can keep crying "legitimate criticism" over and over, but the same groups you are attempting to rely on for your agenda have already rejected your arguments as being legitimate.

Palestinians are not citizens and there is no reason to afford them any such right just as you would not be afforded the same rights in Israel as a citizen would.

I don't think you've read that report, as thats not the kind of thing I'm on about at all.


They are not a breach of the Geneva Convention or International law. A country is allowed to conquer land in a war in which they are not the aggressor in order to secure its borders from constant attack.

Again the buffer argument breaks down because of the civillian settlements, or (as I refer to it "strapping Granma to the car as a bumper") which are (should you care to check) a breach of the Geneva convention.

And as for "conquering land" -the second line of resolution 242 states - "Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,.." (my bold and underline).


I believe the breakdown of the Oslo accords was due to Arafats continued aggression and non stop terror campaign against Israel, not to mention there were settlements before Oslo.
FACT: there were more terror attacks against Israel in the five year following the signing of Oslo than there were the fifteen years preceeding Oslo COMBINED.

Another fact is that the majority of settlers in the West Bank arrived after Oslo...


I think this is the first thing we agree upon. The Palestinians only became Palestinians after the '67 war in which the Arabs realized they could not win a decisive military victory against Israel and had to use the Palestinians as a tool.

Yet there'd been disorganised violence from Palestinians for years before the founding of the PLO. While I've no doubt that certain Arab regimes used (and use) the Palestinians for their own agendas, neither should you doubt the genuine desire for self determination of the Palestinian people.


Israel's international borders are disputed; as is reinforced by UN Security Council Resolution 242 which states that Israel must withdraw from territories occupied after the 6 Day war but never specifies which territories or how much nor does it give a clear border; it also calls for the end to hostilities and recognition of Israel; both of which have not happened.


The lack of a total recognition by all offending parties is obviously a problem, however as none are engaged in actual conflict, it merely provides an excuse to justify the ongoing occupation.

As for borders etc - "Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; " is what the resolution says and that seems fairly clear to me, particularily in light of the emphasis given to the "inadmissibilty" of territory gained by war. Any dispute over the exact pre1967 lines were to be negotiated.

As I've already cited, the US State Dept's Report on Global Anti-Semitism and the EUMC state that comparing Israel to Apartheid is anti-Semitic, not legitimate criticism. So, if you decide to use these groups as sources, do it across the board and not just when it fits your agenda.

Kreitzmoorland pointed out how these very sources were criticized as being inaccurate and invalid when they declare that such is not legitimate criticism, but anti-Semitism, yet these same "invalid" sources are used by the same people criticizing them when it fits their anti-Israel agenda.

You can keep crying "legitimate criticism" over and over, but the same groups you are attempting to rely on for your agenda have already rejected your arguments as being legitimate.

If a tree falls in the woods, is it an anti-semite?