NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok before I get into the meat of this subject let me ask this:
If all you Euro Trash and USA bashers think that the USA is such a horrible country, why do so many want to come here, legally of illegally? If we are so bad you would think that no one would want to come here, maybe it is because this is truly the land of opportunity, where you can make a good life, unlike the stagnant economies of Europe, South America, Africa and many other parts of the world, or maybe it is the freedoms we have here, people don’t have to worry about being killed because they disagree with the government and speak out or are of a different religion or ethnic group. I believe most of the Euro-Trash that bashes the USA because they are envious of our standard of living, freedoms and rights. Be that as it may be…now on to the meat of the post.

Illegal immigration, how hard is this to really figure out?
First strengthen the boarders to prevent or cut down on this Illegal immigration. This is not to say that immigration is bad, because it is not, immigration is what made the USA, and made it great, we need people to fill jobs and work to grow the economy that is a fact. Stop the Illegal crossing/entrance into the country. People that want to come here to work should be able to, but the nation also has to be able to regulate the numbers and who does enter the country, that only makes sense. So my ideas and thoughts are as follows.
1) Secure the boarders to stop Illegal crossing.
2) Set up guest workers stations, the person much supply documents to prove who they are. And so a back ground check can be done, as well as so that the Government knows where they are and how many are here.
3) Set up a guest worker or seasonal worker program
A guest worker would be someone that intends on becoming a US citizen.
The guest worker permit would be good for 3 years after which time the person would either have to go back, or become a US citizen, and to become said US citizen, they would have to pass the standard citizenship test, speak English have and hold a job, and have a permanent residence. They then would be able to vote and enjoy all the rights of all US citizens, pay taxes and so on.
A seasonal worker would be someone that comes to work of a set time, such as harvest of crops and so on, they would have a permit to be here for 6 to 8 month and then have to return to there home country.
4) No felons or other criminals would be allowed, if they commit a crime here they stand trial, and then are sent back to where they came from and not allowed to enter or become a US citizen,
5) Any US person or corporation found hiring Illegal would face a $50,000 fine per violation (per Illegal); this would make it less attractive to hire an illegal person, and make it harder for an illegal person to find work, and thus encourage people to come to the country legally.
6) Enact laws to ensure that all immigrants receive fair wages for there work; this would protect them from being taken advantage of but businesses, corporations or others.
7) All Illegal here now would have to register get a work permit and back ground check and they would have to wait 5 years rather then 3 to become a US citizen, any that do not register when found would be sent back to there home country, and if they wanted to come back would have to follow the proper procedure to enter the country.

This would be a good way to start. At least in my opinion.
More to follow I am sure.

Ladies and gentleman, boys and girls we have a troll!

Please line up in an orderly fashion and take it in turns to disprove/crush it's mind/etc.

Now who wants to go first?

Ok before I get into the meat of this subject let me ask this:
If all you Euro Trash and USA bashers think that the USA is such a horrible country, why do so many want to come here, legally of illegally? If we are so bad you would think that no one would want to come here, maybe it is because this is truly the land of opportunity, where you can make a good life, unlike the stagnant economies of Europe, South America, Africa and many other parts of the world, or maybe it is the freedoms we have here, people don’t have to worry about being killed because they disagree with the government and speak out or are of a different religion or ethnic group. I believe most of the Euro-Trash that bashes the USA because they are envious of our standard of living, freedoms and rights. Be that as it may be…now on to the meat of the post.

Illegal immigration, how hard is this to really figure out?
First strengthen the boarders to prevent or cut down on this Illegal immigration. This is not to say that immigration is bad, because it is not, immigration is what made the USA, and made it great, we need people to fill jobs and work to grow the economy that is a fact. Stop the Illegal crossing/entrance into the country. People that want to come here to work should be able to, but the nation also has to be able to regulate the numbers and who does enter the country, that only makes sense. So my ideas and thoughts are as follows.
1) Secure the boarders to stop Illegal crossing.
2) Set up guest workers stations, the person much supply documents to prove who they are. And so a back ground check can be done, as well as so that the Government knows where they are and how many are here.
3) Set up a guest worker or seasonal worker program
A guest worker would be someone that intends on becoming a US citizen.
The guest worker permit would be good for 3 years after which time the person would either have to go back, or become a US citizen, and to become said US citizen, they would have to pass the standard citizenship test, speak English have and hold a job, and have a permanent residence. They then would be able to vote and enjoy all the rights of all US citizens, pay taxes and so on.
A seasonal worker would be someone that comes to work of a set time, such as harvest of crops and so on, they would have a permit to be here for 6 to 8 month and then have to return to there home country.
4) No felons or other criminals would be allowed, if they commit a crime here they stand trial, and then are sent back to where they came from and not allowed to enter or become a US citizen,
5) Any US person or corporation found hiring Illegal would face a $50,000 fine per violation (per Illegal); this would make it less attractive to hire an illegal person, and make it harder for an illegal person to find work, and thus encourage people to come to the country legally.
6) Enact laws to ensure that all immigrants receive fair wages for there work; this would protect them from being taken advantage of but businesses, corporations or others.
7) All Illegal here now would have to register get a work permit and back ground check and they would have to wait 5 years rather then 3 to become a US citizen, any that do not register when found would be sent back to there home country, and if they wanted to come back would have to follow the proper procedure to enter the country.

This would be a good way to start. At least in my opinion.
More to follow I am sure.

YOU RACIST!!!11! OH NOES!111!!!!!! YOU BIGOT!!!111!!111

Because immigrants are ONLY seeking a better life.....



Through drugs, welfare, free EVERYTHING, gang membership, etc. Why does the US gov't allow criminals to flaunt the laws of the US while it prosecutes Law abiding gun owners for BS crap that the ATF makes up?

*Gets the Popcorn out*

This should be a good 'un...

Ladies and gentleman, boys and girls we have a troll!

Please line up in an orderly fashion and take it in turns to disprove/crush it's mind/etc.

Now who wants to go first?

*Hands Forsakia Popcorn*

Salted or Sweet?

*Hands Forsakia Popcorn*

Salted or Sweet?
ooh, sweet, it goes well with carnage

ooh, sweet, it goes well with carnage

*Hands the Sweet Popcorn over*

Well, I'm a just gonna sit back, relax, and just watch this one.

L O L.

So no one is going to answer his question?

If the USA is so damn bad why are people from all over the world, climbing over each other to get here. Legally or illegally?

*munches popcorn*
Euro trash eh? Haven't heard that one in a while.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/DoNotFeedTroll.png

First time I got to post that pic... :fluffle:

[Snip]This would be a good way to start. At least in my opinion.
More to follow I am sure.
interesting ideas. good way to start. but I would also stiffen penalties for Coyoties and anyone caught trying to sneak Illegals across the boarder. make it harder for them to do business.

as well as make some provisions for any Slaves that are trafficked into the US. Send them back? yes, but with more dignity than Illegals choosing to come across.

So no one is going to answer his question?

If the USA is so damn bad why are people from all over the world, climbing over each other to get here. Legally or illegally?
They aren't. People trying to migrate to America are in the minority.

*decides to have Kettlecorn instead of popcorn*

*munches popcorn*
Euro trash eh? Haven't heard that one in a while.

*Slurps on a Coke*

Tell me about it. Trolls these days - just recycling all the old stuff. At least this one has a funny name...

*decides to have Kettlecorn instead of popcorn*

Now, I've got Popcorn and Nachos. But I've never heard of Kettlecorn. What is it?

Well, why are they at all?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/DoNotFeedTroll.png

First time I got to post that pic... :fluffle:
That looks more like a leprechaun than a troll.

*Slurps on a Coke*

Tell me about it. Trolls these days - just recycling all the old stuff. At least this one has a funny name...
When they start misspelling text language, you know standards have gone down hill.

Well, why are they at all?

Do you want Coke or Pepsi? I might have some Fanta around here somewhere...

*Rummages about in his Ice Locker*

Now, I've got Popcorn and Nachos. But I've never heard of Kettlecorn. What is it?

sugar popcorn...but I beleive the sugar is added at the time of popping, not after. I could be wrong. I never eat the disgusting stuff.

That looks more like a leprechaun than a troll.

So trolls and the Irish go hand in hand?

Euro Trash? So what if I am.

European Check list

Freedom-Check
Human Rights-Check
Opportunities-Check
Stagnant Economies-Uncheck
Freedom to practice whatever you want within the law- Check

Now a vote

Who is desperate to get to the USA?

Yes 0
No 1

Mind if I get some of that popcorn?

sugar popcorn...but I beleive the sugar is added at the time of popping, not after. I could be wrong. I never eat the disgusting stuff.

Great. Now I'm hungry...

So trolls and the Irish go hand in hand?
Em, no. That just looks like a leprechaun in the picture.

Euro Trash? So what if I am.

European Check list

Freedom-Check
Human Rights-Check
Opportunities-Check
Stagnant Economies-Uncheck
Freedom to practice whatever you want within the law- Check

Now a vote

Who is desperate to get to the USA?

Yes 0
No 1

Mind if I get some of that popcorn?

*Hands Londim the Ice Locker*

Apparently we've got Kettlecorn as well now.

Now, I've got Popcorn and Nachos. But I've never heard of Kettlecorn. What is it?

Er... it's sugary and salty. And most people think it's good. Maybe I can find a definition for you...

Oooh, can I have one of the red fantas?

Great. Now I'm hungry...

Popcorn, hell ya...kettlecorn...nope!

Er... it's sugary and salty. And most people think it's good. Maybe I can find a definition for you...

Oooh, can I have one of the red fantas?

*Chucks one over*

This thread is boring. When's the OP going to start posting?

Wow the Ice Locker. Woohoo I found a cornetto

Er... it's sugary and salty. And most people think it's good.
I don't know how People can stomach a whole bag of it though it's just way too sweet!

*Chucks one over*

This thread is boring. When's the OP going to start posting?
guess when more people post honest opinions about his ideas or gives suggestions of their own...
*spots Fresca at the back of the fridge*
Oh. Dibs!

I don't know how People can stomach a whole bag of it though it's just way too sweet!
can't stand kettlecorn... Caramel Corn however... *licks lips*

snip.
I wouldn't call people who bash America eurotrash because it would make me seem like an ignorant American, and they do have some legitimate concerns. That being said, America is a great nation and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

Is the writer of this thread crazy, europeans don't envy us, they have better countries than us. In acutality the number of european who come to the US has greatly reduced to below any other world region. With a few exceptions of course.

And Immigrants come here soley for the ECONOMIC OPPORTUNIY, or to escape some sort of war. Don't flatter yourself by saying that this country is the BEST IN THE WORLD. I admit it is a good country but please.

The US has way more crime/social/health/ and educational problems than even 3rd world countries. (notice I left out ECONOMIC problems)

In 3rd world countries the educational standards are hightend to the max, not lowered so EVERYONE can pass like in the US.

I don't know how People can stomach a whole bag of it though it's just way too sweet!

Whole bag? Oh no, that's why you buy one and share!
I like caramel corn too.

Ah, kettlecorn and red fanta, now my day is complete... wait, no! *pulls out a chocolate bar* Now my day is complete.

That looks more like a leprechaun than a troll.


You really think it looks more like a leprechaun (http://w4.pica.army.mil/voice2001/010316/leprechaun-1.gif) then a troll (http://jpatokal.iki.fi/photo/travel/Norway/Geilo_Troll.JPG)? I can't see that, but whatever ;)

guess when more people post honest opinions about his ideas or gives suggestions of their own...
*spots Fresca at the back of the fridge*
Oh. Dibs!
I'll play the Troll slayer if you guys are that bored :p

i think if you want to come to the us from abroad you should be foced to serve the US military for 4 years. and then you can bring over your family and such.

If cough illegaly then you must serve in some sort of foreign legion Military. and thus we can cut back on illegas comign to the country. because if you are cought you must do 10 years in the American Foreign Legion.

I could go for a pizza right now...

:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: This is what I says... Death to illegal immagrants. We should set up sniper posts every 400 YARDS. amd we should build a giant fence! But dont get me wrong these immeragrants do jobs that we dont BUT WHO CARES people keep conplaining about how theres not enouph jobs in the country but there wrong! WHAT DO YOU THINK THE IMMAGRANTS ARE DOING...HUW!!!

:mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: This is what I says... Death to illegal immagrants. We should set up sniper posts every 500 miles. But dont get me wrong these immeragrants do jobs that we dont BUT WHO CARES people keep conplaining about how theres not enouph jobs in the country but there wrong! WHAT DO YOU THINK THE IMMAGRANTS ARE DOING...HUW!!!

Oh blimey, at last. Where the hell have you been?

*Looks at watch*

Do you know how long we've been waiting for the entertainment?

I could just imagine that.

Immigration Officer: " Hi welcome to America, Land of the free. Heres your gun, Army trucks over there. Now get in and fight in some crazy war for us. Have a nice day

( A comment on UCLEs comment)

Is the writer of this thread crazy, europeans don't envy us, they have better countries than us. In acutality the number of european who come to the US has greatly reduced to below any other world region. With a few exceptions of course.true, more south/middle American countries, but little from Europe.... then again most European Migrants tend to follow procedures.

And Immigrants come here soley for the ECONOMIC OPPORTUNIY, or to escape some sort of war. Don't flatter yourself by saying that this country is the BEST IN THE WORLD. I admit it is a good country but please.if it's not the best for Economic opportunity or the safest (while escaping a war) why not go to the Best in the Wold... where ever that may be. (after all, Best is a matter of opinion.)

The US has way more crime/social/health/ and educational problems than even 3rd world countries. (notice I left out ECONOMIC problems)no, we have alot of those problems, but we're not the worse.

In 3rd world countries the educational standards are hightend to the max, not lowered so EVERYONE can pass like in the US.thats' because when a child is held back, those parents bear down on that child to make him improve. Here in the US, when a child is held back, the parents sue the schools and blame everyone else but themselves or the child, and the parents usually wins.

I could just imagine that.

Immigration Officer: " Hi welcome to America, Land of the free. Heres your gun, Army trucks over there. Now get in and fight in some crazy war for us. Have a nice day
wouldn't that be, "Hi Welcome to America, Land of the Free, congratulations for becoming a Citizen. now here's your gun, the Amry Truck is there to take you to another country to fight for the US. have a nice day... oh and we'll see you if you get back... when...WHEN you get back."

W00T! Dinner AND a show! :D

And chocolate?? Where's my chocolate?

*Grabs chocolate*

Mmm... Cocolate :fluffle:

Every one here knows it costs like a $1000 to move here leagaly right.

W00T! Dinner AND a show! :D

And chocolate?? Where's my chocolate?

*Grabs chocolate*

Mmm... Cocolate :fluffle:

Pfft. Not much of a show. Where do I go to get my money back?

wouldn't that be, "Hi Welcome to America, Land of the Free, congratulations for becoming a Citizen. now here's your gun, the Amry Truck is there to take you to another country to fight for the US. have a nice day... oh and we'll see you if you get back... when...WHEN you get back."
"And hope we're not going to war against your old country... And if we are, we hope your family isn't close to the war zone... And if they are, then... well... um... ah... John, help me out here will you?"

wouldn't that be, "Hi Welcome to America, Land of the Free, congratulations for becoming a Citizen. now here's your gun, the Amry Truck is there to take you to another country to fight for the US. have a nice day... oh and we'll see you if you get back... when...WHEN you get back."

Tomata Tomato. *Waits for more people to make silly or weird comments* I fancy some more butchering of these comments

Tomata Tomato. *Waits for more people to make silly or weird comments* I fancy some more butchering of these comments
Po-Tay-toe
Po-tah-toe

Po-Tay-toe
Po-tah-toe

"Let's call the whole thing off!"

"And hope we're not going to war against your old country... And if we are, we hope your family isn't close to the war zone... And if they are, then... well... um... ah... John, help me out here will you?"
they were killed by insurgets... I mean, in a crossfire with insurgents.... it was a tragic accident... those that did it will be court martialled...


wait... we didn't get there yet, right?

they were killed by insurgets... I mean, in a crossfire with insurgents.... it was a tragic accident... those that did it will be court martialled...


wait... we didn't get there yet, right?

"Ya know its hard to keep track of where we are anymore. Lets just keep track of where we haven't been."

Pfft. Not much of a show. Where do I go to get my money back?
You can go here...
http://www.plainlanguageaustralia.com/images/complaints.gif

or here...
http://www.partyinkingston.com/help/complaints.jpg

or here, I guess...
http://www.w-uh.com/images/complaints.jpg

Just a few points:

unlike the stagnant economies of Europe, South America, Africa and many other parts of the world

At the minute, the dollar is very weak compared to the Euro and the Pound, in addition to the rapidly expanding economies in Eastern Europe, particularly in my sector - Engineering.

I believe most of the Euro-Trash that bashes the USA because they are envious of our standard of living, freedoms and rights.

Yes, most of Europe live in abject poverty under corrupt dictatorships. As for freedoms, how many countries can you freely travel to and work in without visas?

why do so many want to come here, legally of illegally?

Believe it or not, European countries have problems with immigration as well.

Judging by the language you use to refer to the rest of the world, and Europe in particular, I would not be surprised to discover that you have never left the USA.

Well, why are they at all?
Because the US has a better standard of living than their home countries. But it does seem that a lot of Americans, due to their ignorance of what goes on outside their own countries, think that illiegal immigration is a problem that only they have. Illegal immigrants from the middle east sneak in trucks over the borders into Europe through places like Turkey. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4998392.stm) African immigrants are dying (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4295248.stm) trying to get into the Spanish enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla via Morocco, and risking drowning on leaky boats when they can't get through. Africans also take similar risks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4969822.stm) on rickety boats trying to get to Italy.

Illegal immigration isn't exclusively an American problem.

Because the US has a better standard of living than their home countries. But it does seem that a lot of Americans, due to their ignorance of what goes on outside their own countries, think that illiegal immigration is a problem that only they have. Illegal immigrants from the middle east sneak in trucks over the borders into Europe through places like Turkey. African immigrants are dying (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4295248.stm) trying to get into the Spanish enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla via Morocco, and risking drowning on leaky boats when they can't get through. Africans also take similar risks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4969822.stm) on rickety boats trying to get to Italy.

Illegal immigration isn't exclusively an American problem.

I am sure it is not. That is a good point. But with the way people act and some of the things I have read here, its amazing anyone would come. Regardless of how bad their own countries are.

You can go here...
http://www.plainlanguageaustralia.com/images/complaints.gif

or here...
http://www.partyinkingston.com/help/complaints.jpg

or here, I guess...
http://www.w-uh.com/images/complaints.jpg

I'll take it up with the troll. He seems to be the easiest of the three.

Mister President, I have a solution... (http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/whisper.gif)

1: If you catch illegals working somewhere, you take the buiesness away (http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/laughoutloud.gif)
2: If you catch illegals driving a car, you take the car away. (http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/drowned/transam-yellow.gif)
3: If you catch illegals living at, or staying at someone's house, you take the house away. (http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/cop.gif)
Who would harbor illegals then? (http://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/other/bandit.gif)
They would have no where to go! (http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/uhoh3.gif)
Conservative Americans are happy! (http://smilies.vidahost.com/cwm/big/bigsmirk4.gif)

I am sure it is not. That is a good point. But with the way people act and some of the things I have read here, its amazing anyone would come. Regardless of how bad their own countries are.
I think even the most anti-American people here would realise that the standard of living in the US, even for illegal immigrants is better than that of Mexico or other Central or South American countries. But I don't really think having an economy better than that of Mexico should be considered something that's worth shouting from the rooftops about. It should go without saying.

Illegal immigration isn't exclusively an American problem.
Le Gasp! :eek:

they were killed by insurgets... I mean, in a crossfire with insurgents.... it was a tragic accident... those that did it will be court martialled...


wait... we didn't get there yet, right?
It doesn't matter really. They were either with us or against us, so now that they are dead they are either heroes or martyrs.


I feel we need a song, but I'm not sure which one would capture the moment...

How about this one? (http://home.uchicago.edu/~yli5/Flash/Fire.html) (Click to sing along ;) )

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it

Hemingway, Eichmann, "Stranger in a Strange Land"
Dylan, Berlin, Bay of Pigs Invasion

"Lawrence of Arabia", British Beatlemania
Ole Miss, John Glenn, Liston beats Patterson

Pope Paul, Malcolm X, British politician sex
JFK, blown away, what else do I have to say

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it

Le Gasp! :eek:
Looking at the way a lot of Americans constantly crow about it, you'd think that half the world's population were trying to get into America, with none trying to get into Europe.

Looking at the way a lot of Americans constantly crow about it, you'd think that half the world's population were trying to get into America, with none trying to get into Europe.
True, you guys have had it a lot long than us too.

hmm... makes you think

Looking at the way a lot of Americans constantly crow about it, you'd think that half the world's population were trying to get into America, with none trying to get into Europe.

Looking at the way the BBC talk about it, everyone is coming to the UK.

Looking at the way the BBC talk about it, everyone is coming to the UK.
I don't think that's the case. I'll be the first to acknowledge that the BBC has it's own bias on things, but I think they offer a reasonable balance of stories on world immigration issues. They've covered numerous stories of immigrants sneaking in to find work in all different European countires, and have also covered a lot of the recent controversy over the proposed immigration reform in the US.

I don't think that's the case. I'll be the first to acknowledge that the BBC has it's own bias on things, but I think they offer a reasonabley balanced view on world immigration issues. They've covered numerous stories of immigrants sneaking in to find work in all different European countires, and have also covered a lot of the recent controversy over the proposed immigration reform in the US.

Good point. I have found that BBC news 24 is quite impartial. My comment would probably have been better aimed at British journalism in general and perhaps certain newspapers in particular.

well, I gather from the daily mail that there are so many illegal immigrants in britain that the island is actually sinking

I also heard from the Daily Mail that pigs can fly.

What a bunch of dumb asses there are around here…come up with a good topic to debate (not that many of you morons here know what debate is) you go and start right out with stupid crap and troll accusations, guess your not smart enough to contribute anything constructive, goes to show how un-intelligent you really are. Well kids nothing better to do them play on mom and dads computer trying to act all grown up.

well, I gather from the daily mail that there are so many illegal immigrants in britain that the island is actually sinking

It wouldn't surprise me, after reading some articles about the relationship between senior people involved with the Daily Mail and senior members of the Nazi and similar parties throughout history (including Adolf Hitler amongst others), I have made a concious effort to ignore the Daily Mail.

What a bunch of dumb asses there are around here…come up with a good topic to debate (not that many of you morons here know what debate is) you go and start right out with stupid crap and troll accusations, guess your not smart enough to contribute anything constructive, goes to show how un-intelligent you really are. Well kids nothing better to do them play on mom and dads computer trying to act all grown up.

You're the one who started with all the name-calling (Eurotrash, dumb asses, morons).

What a bunch of dumb asses there are around here…come up with a good topic to debate (not that many of you morons here know what debate is) you go and start right out with stupid crap and troll accusations, guess your not smart enough to contribute anything constructive, goes to show how un-intelligent you really are. Well kids nothing better to do them play on mom and dads computer trying to act all grown up.

Yep thats what we are. Little kids who are using mum and dad computer tryin to act all grown up:rolleyes:
If you really want to debate we can do this right now. In the process we could also try to insert a sense of humour into you.

Illegal Immigrants as stated are illegal (shocker) but why do they move? There are many reasons.
Better financial gain
Better education
Escape a warzone

Thats just three but their are many more. The USAs main 'illegal' immigrants are from Mexico. Why? Because its the closest More Economically Developed Country or MEDC for short. Not everyone is clambering over each other to get to the good ol US of A.

What a bunch of dumb asses there are around here…come up with a good topic to debate (not that many of you morons here know what debate is) you go and start right out with stupid crap and troll accusations, guess your not smart enough to contribute anything constructive, goes to show how un-intelligent you really are. Well kids nothing better to do them play on mom and dads computer trying to act all grown up.

Oh, so you finally returned, did you?

Look, I'm sorry, but I paid good money to watch this show, and quite frankly I'm disappointed. I'd like my money back please.

*Waits, sipping his Coke*

You paid for this show? Should have just snuck in through the side door.

What a bunch of dumb asses there are around here…come up with a good topic to debate (not that many of you morons here know what debate is) you go and start right out with stupid crap and troll accusations, guess your not smart enough to contribute anything constructive, goes to show how un-intelligent you really are. Well kids nothing better to do them play on mom and dads computer trying to act all grown up.

Wow, unintelligent, hyphenated? Does someone want to explain to the egomaniacal American the in such a case the word intelligent does not need to be hyphenated with its prefix?

Let us then address the issue at hand, though it does not look like much of a debate issue so much as a blanket statement that you have chosen to make.
Yes, the US has many illegal immigration issues, though these issues are certainly NOT exclusive to your country by any means. In fact there are (as people have already stated) many countries with greater problems than yours. Your country in my slightly biased opinion is NOT the greatest country in the world in which to live. Your social systems are questionable, health care is not the best in the world, in fact the World Health Organization bases many of its policies and procedures on the Canadian Health Care system. Life expectancy and disabilitiy adjusted life expectancy in the US is lower than in many other devoloped nations worldwide. The economy in the US is rapidly falling, with many other currencies at all time highs, in fact the Canadian Dollar is not far from being on par with the USD (0.90 cents to the dollar), the Euro is worth $1.28USD and the GBP is worth $1.86USD.
It is true that many people do like many things about the US, though many people are angry (especially people living in Europe, but not exclusively) with America's foreign policies. This is the reason that most people bash the US.
This is also the reason that the majority of the people coming into the US illegally are doing so from Mexico and Central/South America.

Is that a good enough retort to your attempt at a debate (which generally you need a topic and supporting evidence to enter into, you simply have a disjointed topic, which appears to be several topics with no clear focus).

You paid for this show? Should have just snuck in through the side door.

*Spits out coke*

There's a side door?

What a bunch of dumb asses there are around here…come up with a good topic to debate (not that many of you morons here know what debate is) you go and start right out with stupid crap and troll accusations, guess your not smart enough to contribute anything constructive, goes to show how un-intelligent you really are. Well kids nothing better to do them play on mom and dads computer trying to act all grown up.
well, your opening statements were inflammatory... your handle doesn't really speak of a non troll person...

and the fact that this is GENERAL, where people will argue against points they are against So you can also take it that most people agree with your plan.... but disagree with your name calling.

What a bunch of dumb asses there are around here…come up with a good topic to debate (not that many of you morons here know what debate is) you go and start right out with stupid crap and troll accusations, guess your not smart enough to contribute anything constructive, goes to show how un-intelligent you really are. Well kids nothing better to do them play on mom and dads computer trying to act all grown up.
I don't really think you can expect people to take you seriously when you start hurling insults around on the first post. Hardly the hallmark of of someone who will hold an intelligent discussion. But if you want to have a real debate, respond to some of the serious posts that others have made.

*Spits out coke*

There's a side door?

yep... we all used it. infact, I think you're the only one to pay for this show.


but then again, those that snuck in really got their monies worth.

*Spits out coke*

There's a side door?
Well not so much a side door as such. More of a hole in the wall created with a sledgehammer. The lengths I goto avoid paying money

Your right I did start off with a bit of name calling, that was directed to those here that that bash my country, call name and make fun of those they disagree with, most of the from Europe, they think they know more then us poor uneducated Americans, to those of that ilk, you are trash.


Illegal Immigrants as stated are illegal (shocker) but why do they move? There are many reasons.
Better financial gain
Better education
Escape a warzone

Valid points, and as I stated, 90% of people here are not anti-immigration, we are anti-illegal immigration. As is the case with many other nations, immigration is something that is needed to keep the economy moving and expanding. The point here is that illegal immigration has to be addressed. It is a matter of security and economic stability, as well as what resources and benefits they are to receive. Does an illegal have the right to public assistance, welfare, non-emergency medical care, are they entitled to public education, or state funded collage education, can the vote in an election, you would think the answer would be no, but I wonder is it really. They should have the opportunity to become citizens of the nation if they wish, but there should be requirements to do so, and coming here illegally is not one of them.

*tap* *tap* *tap*

Gentlemen! Ladies! If you please. And you there, stop fidling with the back door! Now, do I have your full attention? Good.

Ready?
Once more, with feeling...


Molto furioso

Illegal Immigrants as stated are illegal (shocker) but why do they move? There are many reasons.
Better financial gain
Better education
Escape a warzone

Valid points, and as I stated, 90% of people here are not anti-immigration, we are anti-illegal immigration. As is the case with many other nations, immigration is something that is needed to keep the economy moving and expanding. The point here is that illegal immigration has to be addressed. It is a matter of security and economic stability, as well as what resources and benefits they are to receive. Does an illegal have the right to public assistance, welfare, non-emergency medical care, are they entitled to public education, or state funded collage education, can the vote in an election, you would think the answer would be no, but I wonder is it really. They should have the opportunity to become citizens of the nation if they wish, but there should be requirements to do so, and coming here illegally is not one of them.
Do they have the rights and benefits citizens have? no. they shouldn't.

Should they recieve help if they need it? (medical and such) yes. but footing the bill becomes iffy.

Should they (illegal Aliens only) recieve any consideration or opportunity to become US citizens? NO. There are people going through the process that should be considered first. those that sneak accross the border should be stripped of all wealth (if any), registered and sent back. those sent back who then apply for work visas, temorary visas or citizenship will be considered but repeat illegal crossings should either expand their wait time or lower their chances.

Correct not all people trying to come here are from Mexico and South America, many are coming from China and other Asian nations. Again, immigration is needed for most nations to fill jobs and expand the economy. My point here is there has to be a way to have immigration as well as being able to know and who is coming where they are what they are doing as well as to control the numbers coming so that a larger burden is not placed on social services.

Well not so much a side door as such. More of a hole in the wall created with a sledgehammer. The lengths I goto avoid paying money
and here I thought they finally fixed the AC here... :rolleyes:

Should they (illegal Aliens only) recieve any consideration or opportunity to become US citizens? NO. There are people going through the process that should be considered first. those that sneak accross the border should be stripped of all wealth (if any), registered and sent back. those sent back who then apply for work visas, temorary visas or citizenship will be considered but repeat illegal crossings should either expand their wait time or lower their chances.
What, all 11 or 12 million of them? This should be entertaining.

Besides, like I said, we really need to fix the immigration procedure first or else sending them back is going to be like tossing buckets of water into an oncoming tide, and about as pointless.

and here I thought they finally fixed the AC here... :rolleyes:
Naw, they never will get around to fixing that.

Ok look at it from an historical prospective. In the early 1900s when the great European immigration to the US was going on these people came here for a better life for there families. They for the most part came through designated points of entry such as Ellis Island, there they were registered, documented and so on, and sent on there way. The US did not require companies to be bi-lingual or have signs is English and Spanish, Chinese, French and so on. These people had to learn on there own to get along and make it here, they worked learned and became US citizens, they did not sneak in suck off the system taking benefits away from legal citizens they came here legally.
Someone coming here illegally does not have the right to free education, welfare, medical care or any other such thing. The people that came here during the last great immigration to the USA came here legally and worked hard expecting nothing besides the opportunity to better themselves. And 90% of the people in the USA do not have a problem with that; the problem comes when they come here illegally and then think they are entitled to something.

Also when I say “here” that can apply to any nation.

Hello! This is my first post on the forums... Oh joy :D Lets get straight to the point shall we?
UCLE! Your comment regarding military service? Already tried, During your civil war. Failed miserably and would do so again. French foreign legion is the modern proof of this.

I H8t you all! Your views are those of sheer insanity. The cost in terms of man power and finances in the long term to create a Berlin Wall to the North and South is financially unfeasable. As to your comment that the US is an area where you can live without fear of prejudice or death? I refer you to the South and North West of the US where for peoples of many different colours and creeds lies danger.
But lets be honest.. the majority of your points relies upon an incorruptable system! For those of us "eurotrash" we are well aware that such a system is not in effect in the good ole US of A.

What, all 11 or 12 million of them? This should be entertaining.

Besides, like I said, we really need to fix the immigration procedure first or else sending them back is going to be like tossing buckets of water into an oncoming tide, and about as pointless.
it will provide employment for the INS Department. closing the borders will also shut out more of the harmful illegals as well.

add to that heavy fines for those employing/aiding/hiding illegals and you have a source of funding for any program... including the hunting down and deporting of Illegals. can you imagine the revenue of Wal*Mart alone can do?

and using a bucket to empty a filling boat while plugging the hole does help.

oh, and I am not against fixing the procedures, but I am against ONLY fixing the Procedures.

NERVUN, sending them back would be too costly. First better boarder security is needed; next make it much more costly for someone to employ them, a big fine regardless if it is a corporation or an individual. Currently the fines given for hiring illegal immigrants is a slap on the wrist, and many companies look at such fines as “the cost of doing business” if the fine went from $10,000 for a violation to $50,000 per illegal found then they would think twice before hiring them, without work they would go back or apply to be here with a legal status.

Hello! This is my first post on the forums... Oh joy :D Lets get straight to the point shall we?
UCLE! Your comment regarding military service? Already tried, During your civil war. Failed miserably and would do so again. French foreign legion is the modern proof of this.

I H8t you all! Your views are those of sheer insanity. The cost in terms of man power and finances in the long term to create a Berlin Wall to the North and South is financially unfeasable. As to your comment that the US is an area where you can live without fear of prejudice or death? I refer you to the South and North West of the US where for peoples of many different colours and creeds lies danger.
But lets be honest.. the majority of your points relies upon an incorruptable system! For those of us "eurotrash" we are well aware that such a system is not in effect in the good ole US of A.

What's this Newbie's in the ring...What's he using to fight the troll...logic!?!? Oh NO! I h8te you all is being torn to shreds folks! The inhumanity the inhumanity! :p (couldn't help my self.)

Oh and a side note I live in the south and I would probably be considered a hippie liberal by this guy so were not all stupid:D

NERVUN, sending them back would be too costly. First better boarder security is needed; next make it much more costly for someone to employ them, a big fine regardless if it is a corporation or an individual. Currently the fines given for hiring illegal immigrants is a slap on the wrist, and many companies look at such fines as “the cost of doing business” if the fine went from $10,000 for a violation to $50,000 per illegal found then they would think twice before hiring them, without work they would go back or apply to be here with a legal status.
but if you make these big fines and make Hiring Illegals undesireable or at least not cost effective, then what, you'll have all these Illegals here, unemployed.

or will you reward their Illegal Entry by giving them work visas and work permits before those who placed their application legally... thus providing once more, an incentive to not follow procedures and come into the Nation Illegally.

Ok look at it from an historical prospective. In the early 1900s when the great European immigration to the US was going on these people came here for a better life for there families. They for the most part came through designated points of entry such as Ellis Island, there they were registered, documented and so on, and sent on there way. The US did not require companies to be bi-lingual or have signs is English and Spanish, Chinese, French and so on. These people had to learn on there own to get along and make it here, they worked learned and became US citizens, they did not sneak in suck off the system taking benefits away from legal citizens they came here legally.
Yes, let's REALLY look at how it really was instead of through some rose colored glasses.

Immigrants coming in were given a literacy test, in their native language, in their own country or port of departchure before heading to the US. There was no language requirement. They did not need visas or passports, just someone to vouch that they were who they said they were. Transfer at Ellis Island was, for the most part, formality only. The screeners at Ellis Island looked for those who carried plague, TB, and were crazy, most of whom had been screened BEFORE leaving their home country (shipping companies didn't want to take them back after all).

Once in, they faced massive discrimination, usually with the very same complaints that you have been spouting in this thread (sing along with me now, "It's all been done before!"). They, like the Mexicans and other immigrants now, took three generations to fully assimulate in US culture, and assimulate they did. The first generation didn't learn English (or rather, didn't learn to a fluent level), but the third generation had forgotten the mother tounge.

Now, look at immigration proceedures now, it's FAR harder and FAR less likely that you will EVER get a green card, or be able to aford it if you're not a wealthy, college educated immigrant from another 1st world country, or married to an American. You're now looking at well over 8 years wait time and well over $1,000 to get US residency, let alone citizenship, which if you're a poor Mexican farmer who has a starving family and makes $10 a day; it might as well be reaching for the Moon.

Don't kid yourself about the noble immigrant of yesteryear who came in and worked. They were no different than the ones of today, it's just that the proceedures have changed and have gotten far harder than our grandparents faced when they came to America.

Someone coming here illegally does not have the right to free education, welfare, medical care or any other such thing. The people that came here during the last great immigration to the USA came here legally and worked hard expecting nothing besides the opportunity to better themselves. And 90% of the people in the USA do not have a problem with that; the problem comes when they come here illegally and then think they are entitled to something.
Yet to see too many illegal immigrants who come over here expecting that. Indeed, they are exploited because all they come here for are the jobs and do not demand the freebees that they are entitled to.

it will provide employment for the INS Department. closing the borders will also shut out more of the harmful illegals as well.

add to that heavy fines for those employing/aiding/hiding illegals and you have a source of funding for any program... including the hunting down and deporting of Illegals. can you imagine the revenue of Wal*Mart alone can do?

and using a bucket to empty a filling boat while plugging the hole does help.

oh, and I am not against fixing the procedures, but I am against ONLY fixing the Procedures.
I'm against just building a wall and assuming that we can actually shut down a border. It's too big and people are too resourceful. We need to remove that which makes an illegal run look more attractive than a legal application first.

The boat isn't leaking, the boat is getting swamped by a tsunami and all the bailing and pumping in the world isn't going to stop the water from coming in.

NERVUN, sending them back would be too costly. First better boarder security is needed; next make it much more costly for someone to employ them, a big fine regardless if it is a corporation or an individual. Currently the fines given for hiring illegal immigrants is a slap on the wrist, and many companies look at such fines as “the cost of doing business” if the fine went from $10,000 for a violation to $50,000 per illegal found then they would think twice before hiring them, without work they would go back or apply to be here with a legal status.
I hate to say it, but while I am all for the idea of going after the companies that hire, I doubt the American public would be. The cost of services would go up, very, very quickly.

I hate to say it, but while I am all for the idea of going after the companies that hire, I doubt the American public would be. The cost of services would go up, very, very quickly.
I Really Really wish we'd go after them...

I'm sorry but there's a differnce between a free market and what we have now.

I'm against just building a wall and assuming that we can actually shut down a border. It's too big and people are too resourceful. We need to remove that which makes an illegal run look more attractive than a legal application first.

The boat isn't leaking, the boat is getting swamped by a tsunami and all the bailing and pumping in the world isn't going to stop the water from coming in.
but standing by and letting more water in doesn help either. to keep any boat that has been swamped afloat, one must strive to remove the water from the boat. :D

A literal wall may not be the answer, but stopping the flow of Illegals as well as sending the ones inside back home needs to be done. it has to be shown that coming in Illegally is not a chance for Citizenship or even a work visa. It also has to be shown that there are benifits to going through the procedure, even the New and Improved Procedure when they are developed.

I hate to say it, but while I am all for the idea of going after the companies that hire, I doubt the American public would be. The cost of services would go up, very, very quickly.
I doubt it. while some services would be hit, other companies might rise to fill the gaps.

Competition can be a good thing.

That’s what I am saying, make it hard for them to find a job, show them that id they come here the legal way they will be better off, many things have to be changes, if they can not find work because of there status they will not have many other choices then to go back and return legally.

NERVUN, again as I said changes need to be made, the amount of time required to become a US citizen has/needs to be changed so that these people have hope, and can achieve the goal.
They should have a background check
Be employed
Learn the language (enough to be able to function)
Take the citizen test
Then they are a member of the USA.

This issue is not really that hard; make it easier to come here legally. Make it less worth it for employers to hire them. By doing so there would be minimum wage requirements and thus these people would not be taken advantage of as much, many employers know that they are hiring some one that is not legal and they use it to there advantage.

You may be right that the American public would be against going after a company, well then they have to shut up and accept illegally immigration, you can’t have it both ways.

...the amount of time required to become a US citizen has/needs to be changed so that these people have hope, and can achieve the goal.
I agree.

They should have a background check
Yes. If they are wanted for a crime, they shouldn't be able to get in. That is the only reason people should be turned back. The rest of the background should not matter.

Be employed
No. People will find a job. Just make welfare payments conditional on having been there a certain amount of time, or having held a job for a while.

Learn the language (enough to be able to function)
They'll do that themselves if necessary. No reason for the government to force them.

Take the citizen test
No.

but standing by and letting more water in doesn help either. to keep any boat that has been swamped afloat, one must strive to remove the water from the boat. :D
I'd rather abandon ship and get a bigger and better boat. Why try to keep the Titanic afloat when she's sinking fast and we could all go aboard the QEII?

A literal wall may not be the answer, but stopping the flow of Illegals as well as sending the ones inside back home needs to be done. it has to be shown that coming in Illegally is not a chance for Citizenship or even a work visa. It also has to be shown that there are benifits to going through the procedure, even the New and Improved Procedure when they are developed.
We have to provide an insentive that makes going though legal channels better than trying to sneak across the border. Right now, it's MUCH easier to sneak in than wait in line. As it is, when people are deported (which does happen every day), they usually sneak right back in a month of so later. That's why I said it's like tossing bucks of water at an incoming tide, it'll just get pushed back.

I doubt it. while some services would be hit, other companies might rise to fill the gaps.

Competition can be a good thing.
The last time there was a huge push to remove all the illegals, the growers of California and Florida started screaming about how the cost of their produce would double or more should they not have the migrant workers to come in and pick. I dislike the phrase "Jobs Americans won't do" because there is no such animal, there are no jobs Americans wont do if you paid them enough. It's the are we willing to pay more and lose the lifestyle we have now to pay enough for those jobs so Americans WILL do them?

That’s what I am saying, make it hard for them to find a job, show them that id they come here the legal way they will be better off, many things have to be changes, if they can not find work because of there status they will not have many other choices then to go back and return legally.

NERVUN, again as I said changes need to be made, the amount of time required to become a US citizen has/needs to be changed so that these people have hope, and can achieve the goal.
They should have a background check
Be employed
Learn the language (enough to be able to function)
Take the citizen test
Then they are a member of the USA.

This issue is not really that hard; make it easier to come here legally. Make it less worth it for employers to hire them. By doing so there would be minimum wage requirements and thus these people would not be taken advantage of as much, many employers know that they are hiring some one that is not legal and they use it to there advantage.
and those that come here Illegally already spent all their money, (and most infact, are in debt to coyotes) that they cannot go back. thus they are trapped here in the US and the only way back is to be caught and sent back at taxpayer's expense. so why not round em up and deport them while creating a new immigration system as well as securing our borders effectively?

NERVUN
Your correct there was massive discrimination, unfortunate but there always will be discrimination against one group or another. I can remember when I was in the Navy many years back and stationed in Virginia seeing signs “dogs and sailors keep off the grass” dumb and not even close to racial/ethnic discrimination but it happens and always will because there will always be people that only see skin color, religious affiliation or national origin.

and those that come here Illegally already spent all their money, (and most infact, are in debt to coyotes) that they cannot go back. thus they are trapped here in the US and the only way back is to be caught and sent back at taxpayer's expense. so why not round em up and deport them while creating a new immigration system as well as securing our borders effectively?

I don’t think rounding them all up is the answer now; it would be expansive and not very efficient. First make it harder to get across the border, next make it harder to find a job. Many will go back home then, also your do bring up a good point, many of them may not be able to go back, so this would also have to be addressed in some way, but I have not thought about that because your point is a new one that may need to be addressed.

I'd rather abandon ship and get a bigger and better boat. Why try to keep the Titanic afloat when she's sinking fast and we could all go aboard the QEII?because you cannot abandon the ship. the choice is sink with it or fix it (which is still possible.)

We have to provide an insentive that makes going though legal channels better than trying to sneak across the border. Right now, it's MUCH easier to sneak in than wait in line. As it is, when people are deported (which does happen every day), they usually sneak right back in a month of so later. That's why I said it's like tossing bucks of water at an incoming tide, it'll just get pushed back.so you make this new system... what of all the illegals in the US now? reward them with visas? more people will still sneak in because there is no penalty nor punnishment. what incentive can you provide that would make filling out forms and any form of waiting period more desireable than sneaking over the border, and within days, finding a job and getting pay (granted lower then minimum but pay nonetheless) and if you stay long enough, an Amnesty period will be declaired and you get your citizenship?

The last time there was a huge push to remove all the illegals, the growers of California and Florida started screaming about how the cost of their produce would double or more should they not have the migrant workers to come in and pick. I dislike the phrase "Jobs Americans won't do" because there is no such animal, there are no jobs Americans wont do if you paid them enough. It's the are we willing to pay more and lose the lifestyle we have now to pay enough for those jobs so Americans WILL do them?most of these illegal migrant workers get paid below Minimum Wage, don't get health benefits and most are treated by their coyoties as slaves. you want that to continue just so that you can buy Oranges at $1.99 a pound?

People complain about boycotting this or that because they are sweatshops, but balk when they hear about ending such sweatshops means an increase in pay.

I say, go for it, raise those prices if need be. the Farmers need to eat and earn a living. those coming in legally need jobs. I'm sure something will work out.

NERVUN, again as I said changes need to be made, the amount of time required to become a US citizen has/needs to be changed so that these people have hope, and can achieve the goal.
They should have a background check
Fair and more than fair enough.
Be employed
This one is tricky, how do you get a job if you can't come into the country to look for one?
Learn the language (enough to be able to function)
This one is also tricky. I DO know that ESL classes are stuffed in community colleges and centers across the US. The people coming in know damn well that English is THE language that they MUST learn. However, what is functional? Do you know how hard it is to be functional?
今は日本で住んでいますでも僕の日本語下手です。　はい毎日日本語を話します。　コンビニだいじょうぶ。　スーパーもだいじょうぶ。　でも、病院の日本語むすかし！　
Believe you me, until you're in an area where NO ONE speaks your lanaguage and you have to try and live there, you cannot know just how much you take your ability to speak English as a native speaker in the US for granted.
Take the citizen test
They do that already to become a citizen. Personally I find it amusing that naturalized citizens know more about the US, it's history and system of government than native born, red blooded, Americans.

This issue is not really that hard; make it easier to come here legally. Make it less worth it for employers to hire them. By doing so there would be minimum wage requirements and thus these people would not be taken advantage of as much, many employers know that they are hiring some one that is not legal and they use it to there advantage.
Here, we agree.

I don’t think rounding them all up is the answer now; it would be expansive and not very efficient. First make it harder to get across the border, next make it harder to find a job. Many will go back home then, also your do bring up a good point, many of them may not be able to go back, so this would also have to be addressed in some way, but I have not thought about that because your point is a new one that may need to be addressed.
the only way to get home for most of those people would be deportation... and that would be a tab picked up by the taxpayers... unless you use the fines from busniess to deport them.

I'm not saying to get em out now, but I'm not saying to reward them either. Secure the borders, then round em up and get em out. all while setting up the new procedures.

hey, perhaps a new private organization... one to help illegals back to their countries before INS gets to them... :D

I agree with you I have been ststioned in places where english was not the language, it was not easy, thus I learned Italian, French and a little Spanish. Knowing a little of the language make it easier to get around.

Agreed again it is sad when kids in the USA know next to nothing about there nation or history..Very sad to say the least

They'll do that themselves if necessary. No reason for the government to force them.

Re: Languages to avoid confusion.

no they won't. If they don't have to they won't. I've seen people taking their written driver's test with a translater next to them reading them the questions and answers. if they cannot read the traffic signs, I don't want them driving down a street that I might be crossing.

because you cannot abandon the ship. the choice is sink with it or fix it (which is still possible.)
Trying to plug the holes and pump the water out isn't going to happen before the ship sinks. We need a new ship, not continue to patch the one we've got now.

so you make this new system... what of all the illegals in the US now? reward them with visas? more people will still sneak in because there is no penalty nor punnishment. what incentive can you provide that would make filling out forms and any form of waiting period more desireable than sneaking over the border, and within days, finding a job and getting pay (granted lower then minimum but pay nonetheless) and if you stay long enough, an Amnesty period will be declaired and you get your citizenship?
Make it worth their while to get citizenship in the US. I actually liked the Senate's version of pay a fine, show you have a job, pass an English test, pay your back taxes, and then get US residency to start the process to citizenship. Your final point is exactly what I am saying though, if you deport all 11 million of these people (which in and of itself will cause MASSIVE headaches with mixed families), they'll just sneak right back in. If we make it easier for them to legalize inside the US and make it easier to enter the US, I think we'll see less illegals because it ain't worth the risk of deportation and death. Right now those risks are less than waiting and hoping for something you have no idea if it will happen or not.

most of these illegal migrant workers get paid below Minimum Wage, don't get health benefits and most are treated by their coyoties as slaves. you want that to continue just so that you can buy Oranges at $1.99 a pound?

People complain about boycotting this or that because they are sweatshops, but balk when they hear about ending such sweatshops means an increase in pay.

I say, go for it, raise those prices if need be. the Farmers need to eat and earn a living. those coming in legally need jobs. I'm sure something will work out.
I, personally, don't. I would MUCH rather have these people paid fairly and honestly, and legally. However, I doubt very much that Mr. and Mrs. America would agree. Any price increase brings howls from the general public and stock holders. Like you said, they are against this, till they learn that they will have to pay for it.

BTW, I WISH my oranges were $1.99 a pound. Fruit is very, very expensive in Japan. No illegals to pick them. A pound of oranges are closer to $4 here.

There's an easy way to prevent illegal immigration, and it's by removing the incentive to move to these countries. If you find a business knowingly employing illegal immigrants, give them crippling fines and possibly a little jail time for the individuals responsible for the worst violations. I doubt you'd get many illegal immigrants if they knew they had no hope of getting a job. I just wish Britain would introduce these measures.

no they won't. If they don't have to they won't. I've seen people taking their written driver's test with a translater next to them reading them the questions and answers. if they cannot read the traffic signs, I don't want them driving down a street that I might be crossing.
That's more of a problem of driving tests than of immigration. If it is necessary for people to understand a given language to live somewhere, they will try to learn it.
If it is not necessary for people to learn a language, they may choose to learn another but probably won't.

But then, what is the problem with that? If they live in a Spanish-only community, and never leave it, they won't have to learn English. Countries can be bilingual without much trouble - see Canada, or even Britain/Wales.

Trying to plug the holes and pump the water out isn't going to happen before the ship sinks. We need a new ship, not continue to patch the one we've got now.the problem with analogies is that they can mean different things. for me, the ship is the US or any nation with an Immigration problem, the Water from the Tsunami and other waves, illegal immigration. what does the ship and water represent to you? I think we might be arguing two wholly different things.

Make it worth their while to get citizenship in the US. I actually liked the Senate's version of pay a fine, show you have a job, pass an English test, pay your back taxes, and then get US residency to start the process to citizenship. Your final point is exactly what I am saying though, if you deport all 11 million of these people (which in and of itself will cause MASSIVE headaches with mixed families), they'll just sneak right back in. If we make it easier for them to legalize inside the US and make it easier to enter the US, I think we'll see less illegals because it ain't worth the risk of deportation and death. Right now those risks are less than waiting and hoping for something you have no idea if it will happen or not.and my point is, that those coming in legally will have a tougher time finding jobs because someone sneaked in and is now working those jobs. there is nothing to provide an incentive for a company owner to hire an illegal alien (whom he can pay less) vs a Legal One for whom he has to pay at least minimum wage, provide benefits (if they qualify) and other add on expenses. so turning those Illegals into card carrying legals is still a slap in the face for those who went through the process and a lesson to not go through the process. Sending em back (while also tightening the borders as well as improving the process) will either force them to sneak across again and be sent back again, or to use the process and can stay without fearing the INS.

I, personally, don't. I would MUCH rather have these people paid fairly and honestly, and legally. However, I doubt very much that Mr. and Mrs. America would agree. Any price increase brings howls from the general public and stock holders. Like you said, they are against this, till they learn that they will have to pay for it.yep... and they will get used to it when they see that it will all work out. hey, they were complaining bout companies outsourcing jobs to foreign markets, but nowdays, it's almost natural now.

BTW, I WISH my oranges were $1.99 a pound. Fruit is very, very expensive in Japan. No illegals to pick them. A pound of oranges are closer to $4 here.Same in Hawaii where almost everything is shipped in. but that was the price I remember when it was on sale in our markets.

I don’t think rounding them all up is the answer now; it would be expansive and not very efficient. First make it harder to get across the border, next make it harder to find a job. Many will go back home then, also your do bring up a good point, many of them may not be able to go back, so this would also have to be addressed in some way, but I have not thought about that because your point is a new one that may need to be addressed.
Is this a first? A troll thread turning into a seemingly reasonable discussion, with an apparently reformed troll taking part. You are witness my dear audience, to what some would call a miracle!
You are now all obliged to pay extra to leave

That's more of a problem of driving tests than of immigration. If it is necessary for people to understand a given language to live somewhere, they will try to learn it.
If it is not necessary for people to learn a language, they may choose to learn another but probably won't.

But then, what is the problem with that? If they live in a Spanish-only community, and never leave it, they won't have to learn English. Countries can be bilingual without much trouble - see Canada, or even Britain/Wales.chances are, they won't stay in a Spanish-only community. especially when their children grow up and move out.

add to that you are only talking about one language. in Hawaii, the languages spoken daily in our city are (in no particual order) Hawaiian, English, Phillippino, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Tongan, Samoan, and Vietnamese. there are no [place ethnic here] only communities that do exsist. all the street signs are in english. a co-worker had her car hit by a philippino, note, they hit her car, they backed up in a parking lot and hit her car. but because they didn't know the driving rules well enough, they sued her for damages. and in court. they were told that they were in the wrong.... VIA a Translator. a costly processes for a minor accident.

now these were not visitors, they were residents that never learned English because it wasn't required for them to learn English.

Is this a first? A troll thread turning into a seemingly reasonable discussion, with an apparently reformed troll taking part. You are witness my dear audience, to what some would call a miracle!
You are now all obliged to pay extra to leave
:rolleyes: it's happened before. the OP was a bit off kilter but He/she did apologize for any misunderstandings.

a co-worker had her car hit by a philippino, note, they hit her car, they backed up in a parking lot and hit her car. but because they didn't know the driving rules well enough, they sued her for damages.
So what does that have to do with language? How many street signs are there in a parking lot, telling you when and where to back out of a space?

So what does that have to do with language? How many street signs are there in a parking lot, telling you when and where to back out of a space?
in the driving manual.

it states that when backing out, it is wise to Look behind to make sure the area was clear (they didn't) and to proceed slowly and cautiously (they didn't)

They argued that they were in the right because her car was stopped behind theirs when they backed out. when asked if they looked to make sure that the path was cleared, they replied no, they shouldn't have to since it was evident that they were going to back out.

the damage to my co-workers car showed that she was not moving at the time of Impact.

in the driving manual.
This all sounds like an everyday occurance that could have happened with any driver anywhere.

And I simply repeat what I said before: If that person was unfit to drive, then that has more to do with the driving instructor that passed him than with his command of English.

This all sounds like an everyday occurance that could have happened with any driver anywhere.

And I simply repeat what I said before: If that person was unfit to drive, then that has more to do with the driving instructor that passed him than with his command of English.
nope, because as a citizen (naturalized) she had the right to get her drivers licence/permit. and since the US does not require english being learned as a requirement anymore, agencies must now make allowances for people who do not know the language well enough to function on their own. thus all the driving testers need to do is have someone who can talk to the testee and test them, knowledge and understanding of the driving rules is done in the written phase. and for that, they have a translator sitting next to them. Reading of a language does not play any part in the testing. and last time I took the written test (after I let my licence lapse way pass the grace period.) there is alot they don't test you on. like backing up, parallel parking, panic stop... the physical drivers test varies from county to county, tester to tester.

the main source of learning the rules is not verbal but reading the manual which covers all the traffice rules and laws.

stupid but legal and constitutional.

People immigrate to different countries for many reasons, one of them being opportunity, but also for freedoms, human rights, and the like. United States is one of those nations that was built by immigrants. Though perhaps the main reason why the U.S. is disliked by many around the world is because of its global power and its stances on certain things, as well as the general American lifestyle and general arrogance of government heads. Some would go to describe America as a generous monster, having both good and bad traits, just more contrasted.

thus all the driving testers need to do is have someone who can talk to the testee and test them, knowledge and understanding of the driving rules is done in the written phase. and for that, they have a translator sitting next to them.
When I did my test, I had to do a multiple choice thing, and an actual driving test. During that test, a dude was sitting next to me and marked me on my driving.
No language required for the practical part, and MCQ sheets can be made in many languages without much effort.

I don't really see your point right now.

hey, perhaps a new private organization... one to help illegals back to their countries before INS gets to them... :D
Oh no! That is SO not a good idea!

no they won't. If they don't have to they won't. I've seen people taking their written driver's test with a translater next to them reading them the questions and answers. if they cannot read the traffic signs, I don't want them driving down a street that I might be crossing.
So what do you do about those who are illiterate?

BTW, I took my driver's test (the written part) in English in Japan. For the signs, I have either memorized the kanji or the shape, just like most people do.

When I did my test, I had to do a multiple choice thing, and an actual driving test. During that test, a dude was sitting next to me and marked me on my driving.
No language required for the practical part, and MCQ sheets can be made in many languages without much effort.

I don't really see your point right now.what area are you from? Geographically.

Oh no! That is SO not a good idea!I know, that was a joke.


So what do you do about those who are illiterate?what about those Illiterate? can they read traffic signs? if they cannot pass the written test, then they won't be driving.

BTW, I took my driver's test (the written part) in English in Japan. For the signs, I have either memorized the kanji or the shape, just like most people do.Japan is different. there are thousands of Kanji and last I heard, if someone knew 20% of em, they were considered highly educated.

btw, how is your Japanese Reading ability?

the problem with analogies is that they can mean different things. for me, the ship is the US or any nation with an Immigration problem, the Water from the Tsunami and other waves, illegal immigration. what does the ship and water represent to you? I think we might be arguing two wholly different things.
For me, the ship is immigration proceedures, the tsunami, immigration, both legal and illegal.

and my point is, that those coming in legally will have a tougher time finding jobs because someone sneaked in and is now working those jobs. there is nothing to provide an incentive for a company owner to hire an illegal alien (whom he can pay less) vs a Legal One for whom he has to pay at least minimum wage, provide benefits (if they qualify) and other add on expenses. so turning those Illegals into card carrying legals is still a slap in the face for those who went through the process and a lesson to not go through the process. Sending em back (while also tightening the borders as well as improving the process) will either force them to sneak across again and be sent back again, or to use the process and can stay without fearing the INS.
The US doesn't allow many unskilled people in currently, so I doubt your statement that they are having problems finding jobs.

But in any case, let me again ask how the hell do you move 11 million people? How do you find, process, and deport, and what do you do with those whose children are US citizens but underage?

yep... and they will get used to it when they see that it will all work out. hey, they were complaining bout companies outsourcing jobs to foreign markets, but nowdays, it's almost natural now.
Hasn't stopped people from bitching about gas prices now has it?

in the driving manual.

it states that when backing out, it is wise to Look behind to make sure the area was clear (they didn't) and to proceed slowly and cautiously (they didn't)
Then it sounds like we should have a good translation into their native language. Like I said, the mastery needed to read government documents is... quite large.

They argued that they were in the right because her car was stopped behind theirs when they backed out. when asked if they looked to make sure that the path was cleared, they replied no, they shouldn't have to since it was evident that they were going to back out.
Um... JuNii... I've seen Americans argue this after backing into someone or something. That's hardly the fault of the lack of English and more stupidity.

nope, because as a citizen (naturalized) she had the right to get her drivers licence/permit. and since the US does not require english being learned as a requirement anymore, agencies must now make allowances for people who do not know the language well enough to function on their own. thus all the driving testers need to do is have someone who can talk to the testee and test them, knowledge and understanding of the driving rules is done in the written phase. and for that, they have a translator sitting next to them. Reading of a language does not play any part in the testing. and last time I took the written test (after I let my licence lapse way pass the grace period.) there is alot they don't test you on. like backing up, parallel parking, panic stop... the physical drivers test varies from county to county, tester to tester.
Since when? To become a naturalized citizen you still have to pass an English test. Getting a visa and driving does not require US citizenship or English ability.

For me, the ship is immigration proceedures, the tsunami, immigration, both legal and illegal.ah. ok, then for your definitions, yes, abandoning the ship for a new one is ok. but you realize, by abandoning the ship, you are effectively still throwing the water back into the ocean. you are not taking the water with you to the new ship.


The US doesn't allow many unskilled people in currently, so I doubt your statement that they are having problems finding jobs.it comes back down to what are they willing to do. then again, changing that requirement can make it easier and faster to be processed and still provide employers with laborers to do the required work. but they would be in the country Legally.

But in any case, let me again ask how the hell do you move 11 million people? How do you find, process, and deport, and what do you do with those whose children are US citizens but underage?one at a time if need be. but ignoring the problem won't make it go away.


Hasn't stopped people from bitching about gas prices now has it?Hasn't stopped them from finding alternative modes of transportation either.

Then it sounds like we should have a good translation into their native language. Like I said, the mastery needed to read government documents is... quite large. now how large would a sign have to be to accomodate 6 different languages?


Since when? To become a naturalized citizen you still have to pass an English test. Getting a visa and driving does not require US citizenship or English ability.funny, I seem to recall that it was removed in most areas. Let me double check on that.

because I find alot of long time residents (over 20 years here) that still cannot speak english nor read it without the help of their children (who went to school here in Hawaii.) and no, they were not Married into the country.

what area are you from? Geographically.
Originally Northern Germany. Right now, Eastern Australia.

I know, that was a joke.
Thank God for that! For a second I thought you were serious! ;)

what about those Illiterate? can they read traffic signs? if they cannot pass the written test, then they won't be driving.
They memorize the shapes and pictures. That's actually why our signs are designed the way that they are, to make it easy for drivers to see and understand without having to read the damn things.

Japan is different. there are thousands of Kanji and last I heard, if someone knew 20% of em, they were considered highly educated.
How so? How is that different from memorizing the archane grammar and spelling rules of English, along with the vocabuary, to read a driver's manual (which in and of itself is written in something other than easy English). I've become a lot my sympathetic to language learners in the US since living in Japan, mainly because I know how hard it is to pick up a language to allow you to function. I can get by in stores, ask directions, and do simple conversations, but tomorrow when I go to the hospital, I MUST have my fiancee with me to translate.

My fiancee is a very good English speaker, she has been in the US for 5 years, has studied English for over 10, and is a university student... but she still had to bring me a letter she got from the IRS because she could not understand it.

btw, how is your Japanese Reading ability?
Around and about 300 kanji. I can understand the gist of most signs, and I can actually read some things in manga and books, but I cannot, for example, pick up a paper and read it.

Originally Northern Germany. Right now, Eastern Australia.
what is the language break up in your areas. don't need percentages, just the majority of different languages you encounter every day.

what is the language break up in your areas. don't need percentages, just the majority of different languages you encounter every day.
Most people speak English. My family speaks German, occasionally you hear people speak Afrikaans.

At uni there are thousands of Chinese-speakers, and probably a fair few Vietnamese, Thai and Indonesians as well.

They memorize the shapes and pictures. That's actually why our signs are designed the way that they are, to make it easy for drivers to see and understand without having to read the damn things.Japanese kaji is pictographic in basic structure, thus memorizing it is easy, now if everything was written in Kana... how important would reading comprehension be?

How so? How is that different from memorizing the archane grammar and spelling rules of English, along with the vocabuary, to read a driver's manual (which in and of itself is written in something other than easy English). I've become a lot my sympathetic to language learners in the US since living in Japan, mainly because I know how hard it is to pick up a language to allow you to function. I can get by in stores, ask directions, and do simple conversations, but tomorrow when I go to the hospital, I MUST have my fiancee with me to translate. because English is a phonetic based language. simply memorising the shapes and definitions to that shape is a little more difficult when the changes can be slight.

I know learning languages is tough, and when you don't use em. :rolleyes:
my reading ability for Japanese went from high school level to... well, I think I'm still above 3rd grade, but I won't count on it. :D I believe it was because of this difficulty, that the requirement for English knowledge was lightened (still looking that up btw.)

My fiancee is a very good English speaker, she has been in the US for 5 years, has studied English for over 10, and is a university student... but she still had to bring me a letter she got from the IRS because she could not understand it. but she can read a book right? She doen't need you to read for her, am I correct? Not talking about speed, just functioning Literacy...

and most government forms cannot be understood by anyone who doesn't speak leagalise :D ;)

I am talking about people who can't read... period. Illiterate. Like I would be if I went to Japan.


Around and about 300 kanji. I can understand the gist of most signs, and I can actually read some things in manga and books, but I cannot, for example, pick up a paper and read it.and you are taking time and care to learn that language. are you forcing the Government to bend backwards for you because you cannot speak or read English?

they couldn't vote Engish as the Offical Language of the United States, they had to call it a National Language because our Senetors felt that it discriminated against those citizens who cannot speak English. why try to force someone to speak a language that isn't the nation's offical language/

Most people speak English. My family speaks German, occasionally you hear people speak Afrikaans.

At uni there are thousands of Chinese-speakers, and probably a fair few Vietnamese, Thai and Indonesians as well.
and your Nation provides books and signs for each of those languages?

By your quotes combined, I am MEGA-POST!

ah. ok, then for your definitions, yes, abandoning the ship for a new one is ok. but you realize, by abandoning the ship, you are effectively still throwing the water back into the ocean. you are not taking the water with you to the new ship.
That's where the water should be, but right now I can't pump the water out, there's too many holes in the hull (damn iceberg).

it comes back down to what are they willing to do. then again, changing that requirement can make it easier and faster to be processed and still provide employers with laborers to do the required work. but they would be in the country Legally.
Which is what I am hoping for. I just feel we need to change the system first THEN build a wall or seranwrap the border, or what have you. If we deport everyone now, they'll just come right back, seranwrap or no.

one at a time if need be. but ignoring the problem won't make it go away.
They'll come back one at a time them. They you're locked in an infiant loop which spends a lot of money and doesn't acomplish what it set out to. We can't ignore it hoping that it goes away, but we cannot pretend that throwing everyone out will fix it either.

Hasn't stopped them from finding alternative modes of transportation either.
And bugging Congress about it, causing them to act.

now how large would a sign have to be to accomodate 6 different languages?
Why would we need to have 6 different languages on a sign when we could print the manual with all the shapes in it and have them understand it better because it is their native language?

funny, I seem to recall that it was removed in most areas. Let me double check on that.

because I find alot of long time residents (over 20 years here) that still cannot speak english nor read it without the help of their children (who went to school here in Hawaii.) and no, they were not Married into the country.
I think you may have confused naturalized citizen with US residence. You can become a resident in the US without having to become a US citizen. Many immigrants never do for one reason or another.

In any case, this is what is needed to become a US citizen:
Welcome to the naturalization home page. Naturalization is the process by which U.S. citizenship is conferred upon a foreign citizen or national after he or she fulfills the requirements established by Congress in the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). The general requirements for administrative naturalization include:


a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States;
residence in a particular USCIS District prior to filing;
an ability to read, write, and speak English;
a knowledge and understanding of U.S. history and government;
good moral character;
attachment to the principles of the U.S. Constitution; and,
favorable disposition toward the United States.

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/index.htm

English test is here: http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/natzsamp.htm

and your Nation provides books and signs for each of those languages?
Nope. And that's why everyone learns English - not because the government tells them to, but because they have to.

By your quotes combined, I am MEGA-POST!is awed by MegaPost. :D


That's where the water should be, but right now I can't pump the water out, there's too many holes in the hull (damn iceberg).and what you are doing is effectively throwing all that water in the Titanic back into the ocean. where it SHOULD be. now, while I say to keep the legals in (those with Visas, as apposed to American Express. :p ) and remove the Illeglas. I know it's not going to take a month or a year, but tightening security to shrink the number of Illegal crossings, revamping or improving new procedures to allow more people in with less hassle. and ship out those who are Illegal and you'll find the number of Illegals would shrink. once back on their side, then let them go through the procedure to come back Legally.


Which is what I am hoping for. I just feel we need to change the system first THEN build a wall or seranwrap the border, or what have you. If we deport everyone now, they'll just come right back, seranwrap or no.agreed, I was never stating what should be done first, or if they should be done in concert. but all three things need to be done. Improve the system, tighten the security and deport the illegals. don't reward them with visas.

They'll come back one at a time them. They you're locked in an infiant loop which spends a lot of money and doesn't acomplish what it set out to. We can't ignore it hoping that it goes away, but we cannot pretend that throwing everyone out will fix it either.with the tightening of security borders, the plan is to make it one comes back for every three or more removed. a slow process but process nontheless. and with improved procedures in place for immigrations to use, they can come back legally.
and as security improves, the ratio will increase to 30 per 1 then 300 per one. but all three items need to be worked on. all at once or one at a time, but all three needs to be in place.

And bugging Congress about it, causing them to act.but something is being done about it. you gotta admit that.

Why would we need to have 6 different languages on a sign when we could print the manual with all the shapes in it and have them understand it better because it is their native language?because Literacy is your friend. I said 6 different languages because that's how many languages I encounter in a normal day off, wandering around the city. and these are not tourists either.



I think you may have confused naturalized citizen with US residence. You can become a resident in the US without having to become a US citizen. Many immigrants never do for one reason or another.Maybe, possibly, probably.

In any case, this is what is needed to become a US citizen:

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/index.htm

English test is here: http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/natzsamp.htm
then I stand corrected on the Language barrier.

Po-Tay-toe
Po-tah-toe

Boil them, mash them, stick 'em in a stew.

Hey, I'll put the kettle on, I feel like Chai tea. Sorry I'm late, was out for a bit.
*sits*
Looks interesting.

Japanese kaji is pictographic in basic structure, thus memorizing it is easy, now if everything was written in Kana... how important would reading comprehension be?
Most signs are symbols, just as they are in the US. Like this: http://www.bridgestone.co.jp/hgt/hgtE/sign/sign_JP/sign_JpE1.html

America's signs actually have more writing to them, but if you memorize them
http://www.trafficsign.us/regsign.html do you really need to read STOP to understand the red octagon means STOP!

because English is a phonetic based language. simply memorising the shapes and definitions to that shape is a little more difficult when the changes can be slight.
Uh... considering how close kanji is and how changing oneline can change the meaning of the word, I'd say that the systems are close. And either way, I have never seen a sign saying "Please bring your car to a compleate stop one car lenght behind any other cars in front of you. Please wait 3 seconds checking both ways before proceeding through the intersection. Please remember to single for a turn. Please let those who stopped before you to proceed first, starting on the left"

Usually they just say STOP. ;)

but she can read a book right? She doen't need you to read for her, am I correct? Not talking about speed, just functioning Literacy...
She can, yes. She is far more fluent in English than I am in Japanese, and yet she is still unsure when it comes to dealing with things like loan guentees. She tried to read my sample ballot and gave up because she could read the words, she could understand the individual words, but they didn't make sense when put together.

and most government forms cannot be understood by anyone who doesn't speak leagalise :D ;)
Yup, which is why I support printing very important documents in other languages, when understanding it key, let's make sure people understand!

and you are taking time and care to learn that language. are you forcing the Government to bend backwards for you because you cannot speak or read English?
No, but since learning is slow, I still need to live in Japan. I cannot wait untill I understand Japanese fully before I go shopping. Or before I head to immigration and get a re-entry permit. I am happy then that the Japanese government in its wisdom has printed those forms in English. I am also happy that the Japanese government has decided that roadsigns should have the romanji/English readings under the kanji so I can find my way home. I am happy that JR has its ticket machines being bi-lingual so I can buy tickets to go around Japan. I am happy that Japan makes an effort to reach out in my language...

Sometimes with very, very bad results, but this isn't the Engrish thread. ;)

they couldn't vote Engish as the Offical Language of the United States, they had to call it a National Language because our Senetors felt that it discriminated against those citizens who cannot speak English. why try to force someone to speak a language that isn't the nation's offical language/
Because the US has NO offical language? We've never had one and there are very good reasons for that.

Most signs are symbols, just as they are in the US. Like this: [snip] the big difference here is that you two are taking time and care to learn the language.

a very difficult task but not impossible.

however (and I'll admit that this is a poor example but one that does kinda fit.) I had a friend go to Japan for a work exchange program... and he took care not to learn any apsect of the language. you can imagine the frustration they must've had dealing with him.

he couldn't function properly, had trouble with most simple tasks but he plowed right on.

"strange boy" was what they were calling him. :D (he wears that title with pride.) of course, he didn't drive, got lost often in the subway system there, and eating was an adventure.

and yes, there are those here that do the same thing. They see their language as a cultrual heratage (and it is) and will resist anything that will look like a degregation of their Heratage.

however, since I may have mistaken US Resident for US citizen, I will drop the language thing.

i have no problem with any races in this world.. hell my g/f is hispanic... but i mean... if you want to come into the country... do it legally

build GIANT wall and sort this out, ship em back

The person that goes to the United States of America doesn´t want to be an american, he or she just wants to survive. The same way the pilgrims got here, the pilgrims came here so the wouldn´t be persecuted for their religius beliefs, these people are trying to survive, and the US isn´t the greatest place to live at it just has a better currency that honestly wouldn´t be that good if it wasn´t for the imigrant workers. so you really should be asking another question. Could the United States economy survive without the imigrants? Thats the real question. Why do you think it´s taken so long for the government to close the borders, Funds? I don´t think so. I think they really don´t want to close the border cause they need these people. just tell me what good is it going to do if you close the border from the south side when illegals are coming in from Asia, and Cuba, do you really think they are not coming in from Canada?

Illegal immigration helps:

big companies make bigger profits
small companies pay people less
politicians get hispanic votes
political activists make money

Illegal immigration hurts:
the thousands of Mexicans who have died in the desert
the thousands of legal citizens who have been murdered by illegals
the people who want to get to America in a legal way

America is not an idea. America is not an entitlement to poor people. America is a country that has borders. Any other place that holds things of great value ( like a bank ) has walls. Why can't America?

*Waits, sipping his Coke*
http://www.studip.uni-goettingen.de/pictures/smile/gulp.gif

The person that goes to the United States of America doesn´t want to be an american, he or she just wants to survive. The same way the pilgrims got here, the pilgrims came here so the wouldn´t be persecuted for their religius beliefs.except the Pilgrims did come here to LIVE.
these people are trying to survive, and the US isn´t the greatest place to live at it just has a better currency that honestly wouldn´t be that good if it wasn´t for the imigrant workers. so you really should be asking another question. Could the United States economy survive without the imigrants? yes it would.
Thats the real question. Why do you think it´s taken so long for the government to close the borders, Funds? because it wasn't that big of an issue until 9/11 showed how easily terrorists could get in. btw, most of them came in with Student Visa's.
I don´t think so. I think they really don´t want to close the border cause they need these people. just tell me what good is it going to do if you close the border from the south side when illegals are coming in from Asia, and Cuba, do you really think they are not coming in from Canada?we are working on tightening security between the US and Canada. but the main problem lies between the US and Mexico. those coming in from Cuba have to cross the Gulf and the cost guard is working on that. also any Asians need to fly in... thus have to cross the immigration check points at the airports.

I cannot believe that people are making up reasons why America should not enforce its own laws. How arrogant.

I cannot believe that people are making up reasons why America should not enforce its own laws. How arrogant.
Ah yes, after all we HAVE to follow all laws, even bad ones. Who cares if people have to be in the back of the bus, they have no right to try and get the government to changes those laws for better ones and demand that it not enforce the old ones.

Ah yes, after all we HAVE to follow all laws, even bad ones. Who cares if people have to be in the back of the bus, they have no right to try and get the government to changes those laws for better ones and demand that it not enforce the old ones.
if we were talking about equal rights for US Citizens... Yes, that would be a valued argument.

However, we are not talking about US Citizens or even US Residents. but Residents and Citizens from another country that has bypassed those laws set in place because they, not us in the US, but Pedro in Mexico, as deemed it not worth his time and effort to get in Legally.

He is crossing borders Illegally. and I want to see those people stopped. the same as you would like to see the person who breaks into your home stopped and caught.

if we were talking about equal rights for US Citizens... Yes, that would be a valued argument.

However, we are not talking about US Citizens or even US Residents. but Residents and Citizens from another country that has bypassed those laws set in place because they, not us in the US, but Pedro in Mexico, as deemed it not worth his time and effort to get in Legally.

He is crossing borders Illegally. and I want to see those people stopped. the same as you would like to see the person who breaks into your home stopped and caught.
So anytime anyone crosses a border illegally, and does so because the legal process is unfairly stacked against him or her, that is fully wrong and should be crushed, right?

Ah yes, after all we HAVE to follow all laws, even bad ones. Who cares if people have to be in the back of the bus, they have no right to try and get the government to changes those laws for better ones and demand that it not enforce the old ones.

You made an illusion to Rosa Parks but she was protesting that her CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO EQUAL PROTECTION under American citizenship be protected. She wanted the rule of law enforced in Alabama. To compare her with a bunch of non-citizens who are motivated out of economic plight is absurd.

Illegal immigration hurts:
the thousands of Mexicans who have died in the desert
the thousands of legal citizens who have been murdered by illegals
the people who want to get to America in a legal way

America is not an idea. America is not an entitlement to poor people. America is a country that has borders. Any other place that holds things of great value ( like a bank ) has walls. Why can't America?

So anytime anyone crosses a border illegally, and does so because the legal process is unfairly stacked against him or her, that is fully wrong and should be crushed, right?
if I understand the question...

"that anyone who crosses the border Illegally, because of an Unfairly stacked legal process, that person is wrong and should be crushed?" if that is the question, no, they should be processed and sent back. those that support a change in procedure need to fight for them. but it doesn't help for them to break the law. even a bad law.

now if they are coming to America because of percecution, then they can seek asylum. and there are procedures for that as well.

BTW, to continue the Rosa Parks analogy, living in America is not a constitutional right for the World.

You made an illusion to Rosa Parks but she was protesting that her CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO EQUAL PROTECTION under American citizenship be protected. She wanted the rule of law enforced in Alabama. To compare her with a bunch of non-citizens who are motivated out of economic plight is absurd.
Oh? But it was the LAW down there. You said we should follow the LAW. So that boycott was a FELLONY.

Make up your mind.

Oh? But it was the LAW down there. You said we should follow the LAW. So that boycott was a FELLONY.

Make up your mind.
well, was Rosa Parks a citizen of the United States? yes

could she have been arrested? yes
Was she arrested? Yes.

so with your analogy, yes, all illegals are to be arrested and punnished by the law.

if I understand the question...

"that anyone who crosses the border Illegally, because of an Unfairly stacked legal process, that person is wrong and should be crushed?" if that is the question, no, they should be processed and sent back. those that support a change in procedure need to fight for them. but it doesn't help for them to break the law. even a bad law.

now if they are coming to America because of percecution, then they can seek asylum. and there are procedures for that as well.
Oh dear. Then we MUST ask the crown of Great Britian to come and remove all Americans who have family who settled west of the Appalachians before the Revolutionary War (which, in and of itself is now illegal and we should have never done).

You were aware that one cause of said war was Britian's refusal to allow the colonies to expand west into sovern Indian territory, right? To go west nessisated an expensive trip to England to argue before the crown and privy council for the right to migrate out there.

Many Americans ignored that, declaring it was their right to move out and settle that area for ecconmic gain.

Too bad for the nations already there, of course.

Eventually that became one of the flash points for the war as Americans declaired that the process was biased, wrong, and took too damn long.

Yes, I know that was then, and this is now, but really, why was it ok then, but not now?

well, was Rosa Parks a citizen of the United States? yes

could she have been arrested? yes
Was she arrested? Yes.

so with your analogy, yes, all illegals are to be arrested and punnished by the law.
And did people protest? Yes. Was the law violated again and again to show how unjust it was? Yes. Did the laws eventually get changed? Yes.

Oh dear. Then we MUST ask the crown of Great Britian to come and remove all Americans who have family who settled west of the Appalachians before the Revolutionary War (which, in and of itself is now illegal and we should have never done).they can try, tho I think the statute of limitations is up by now.

You were aware that one cause of said war was Britian's refusal to allow the colonies to expand west into sovern Indian territory, right? To go west nessisated an expensive trip to England to argue before the crown and privy council for the right to migrate out there.

Many Americans ignored that, declaring it was their right to move out and settle that area for ecconmic gain.

Too bad for the nations already there, of course.

Eventually that became one of the flash points for the war as Americans declaired that the process was biased, wrong, and took too damn long.

Yes, I know that was then, and this is now, but really, why was it ok then, but not now?and did we not pay reparations to the Indians? they govern themselve now. so yes, we did pay for that transgression.

now are the Mexicans paying for their Illegal crossings?

She was protesting that her rights as a citizen were being violated. Illegals have no rights as citizens. They are not supposed to be here. It is a false comparison. Rosa Parks had rights under the constitution that were being violated. Illegal Mexicans do not. It is just that simple.

Rosa Parks was protesting for a right that she had. Illegal Mexicans do not have a "right" to live in America. if they do what law is that based on?

And did people protest? Yes. Was the law violated again and again to show how unjust it was? Yes. Did the laws eventually get changed? Yes. And were those people violating those laws arrested and persicuted? Yes.

were those arrested American Citizens? Yes

are the Illegals crossing into America, Citizens of the United States? (you can answer that one.)

will the process change? maybe.

will it change for the better? who knows.

but untill it does, then keep arresting and placing fines on those Illegal Aliens.

they can try, tho I think the statute of limitations is up by now.
Not sure there is one.

and did we not pay reparations to the Indians? they govern themselve now. so yes, we did pay for that transgression.
Some of the Western Shoshone (sp?) would highly disagree with you about that. Either way, we DID violate the laws of Great Britian at the time (and technically the French). And we went to war because of those disputes.

now are the Mexicans paying for their Illegal crossings?
The same as the Americans back then actually did, by working hard and adding to the nation. By having legal sons and daughters who continue to do so (and pay taxes).

Illegal Mexicans do not have a constitutional right that is being violated. They just came in here without permission and now arrogantly demand to be made citizens and ignore the laws of the very land that they seek to live off of. It is disgraceful and very inconsiderate. The US is not an entitlement for Mexico. it is a country with borders.

And were those people violating those laws arrested and persicuted? Yes.

were those arrested American Citizens? Yes

are the Illegals crossing into America, Citizens of the United States? (you can answer that one.)

will the process change? maybe.

will it change for the better? who knows.

but untill it does, then keep arresting and placing fines on those Illegal Aliens.
Possibly, but until then I will keep fighting what I view to be unjust laws.

It is unjust for America to enforce its own border?????

the many hundreds of legal citizens who have been murdered by illegals is unjust. They matter too don't they?


America is not an idea. America is not an entitlement to poor people. America is a country that has borders. Any other place that holds things of great value ( like a bank ) has walls. Why can't America enforce them without being called unjust? I think Mexico has to solve its own problems instead of dumping them on the USA.

Illegal Mexicans do not have a constitutional right that is being violated. They just came in here without permission and now arrogantly demand to be made citizens and ignore the laws of the very land that they seek to live off of. It is disgraceful and very inconsiderate. The US is not an entitlement for Mexico. it is a country with borders.
Wow... replace Mexicans with Irish and you'd fit in during the 1850's, or Italians for the turn of the last century, or Asians at just about any time.

Hell, say Germans and we could place you with Ben Franklin.

Possibly, but until then I will keep fighting what I view to be unjust laws.

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html

tell that to them.

Wow... replace Mexicans with Irish and you'd fit in during the 1850's, or Italians for the turn of the last century, or Asians at just about any time.

Hell, say Germans and we could place you with Ben Franklin.

Name one example of Irish, Italian, Asians, or German's coming here illegal against our laws in the 1850's. You can't. This is not about race or origin. This is about the things I mentioned in my posts which you like to ignore.

It is unjust for America to enforce its own border?????
'Tis unjust with the current mess the immigration system is in! Do you even KNOW what it takes to immigrate to the US? Have you even bothered to look or are you too busy jumping up and down screaming about how illegal Mexicans are a coming north mowing lawns and picking crops as they come?

the many hundreds of legal citizens who have been murdered by illegals is unjust. They matter too don't they?
And more have been murdered by red blooded Americans. You plan to kick THEM out too?

Solve the population problem. What was that newspaper article, how many Americans have seen the inside of a jail? 20 million or so IIRC.

America is not an idea. America is not an entitlement to poor people. America is a country that has borders. Any other place that holds things of great value ( like a bank ) has walls. Why can't America enforce them without being called unjust? I think Mexico has to solve its own problems instead of dumping them on the USA.
Get a new tagline. It didn't impress me the first time, it hasn't impressed me now. Argue and debate with facts, not slogans.

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html

tell that to them.
*sighs*
And your point being?

There are 11 million illegals in the US (current estimate). Have all killed someone? Hell, the prison population is 2 million. Are ALL of those illegals, or are there far more Americans in there who have killed.

'Tis unjust with the current mess the immigration system is in! Do you even KNOW what it takes to immigrate to the US? Have you even bothered to look or are you too busy jumping up and down screaming about how illegal Mexicans are a coming north mowing lawns and picking crops as they come?


And more have been murdered by red blooded Americans. You plan to kick THEM out too?

Solve the population problem. What was that newspaper article, how many Americans have seen the inside of a jail? 20 million or so IIRC.


Get a new tagline. It didn't impress me the first time, it hasn't impressed me now. Argue and debate with facts, not slogans.

First of all, I don't care what it takes to get into America. People must do it by the book or else they have made themselves criminals. I don't care what jobs they will do, but they better have followed our laws to get here. Anything else is excuse making.
I don't care how many Americans killed people or how many are in Jail. That does not justify more breaking of the law by illegals. And about my beliefs...you may not be impressed by them but I don't care if you are either.

Just because Mexico has its economy in the crapper does not mean that every mexican has a God given right to come to America. Should there be no border at all? This is insanity on the part of both governments and must stop. And stop comparing it to the civil rights movement of the 1950's. Mexicans have no rights under our constitution. We could set the marines on the border tomorrow and shoot them all dead and it would be perfectly constitutional.

Name one example of Irish, Italian, Asians, or German's coming here illegal against our laws in the 1850's. You can't. This is not about race or origin. This is about the things I mentioned in my posts which you like to ignore.
No, this is about xenophobia, something America has had since the begining. The things that you have mentioned have been mentioned before, long before, about every single damn group that came to US shores, legal or non.

Go read Ben Franklin's editorials back in the day about German immigrants in Penn, he says the exact same thing I have heard from you.

*sighs*
And your point being?

There are 11 million illegals in the US (current estimate). Have all killed someone? Hell, the prison population is 2 million. Are ALL of those illegals, or are there far more Americans in there who have killed.

25% of people convicted of murder is in Illegal Immigrant.
4% of the population ( at most) are illegal immigrants.

see the problem?

No, this is about xenophobia, something America has had since the begining. The things that you have mentioned have been mentioned before, long before, about every single damn group that came to US shores, legal or non.

Go read Ben Franklin's editorials back in the day about German immigrants in Penn, he says the exact same thing I have heard from you.

I dont care what race they are. For Gods sake my first girlfriend was a different race than me. Give it a break.

First of all, I don't care what it takes to get into America. People must do it by the book or else they have made themselves criminals. I don't care what jobs they will do, but they better have followed our laws to get here. Anything else is excuse making.
Ah, thought so. You have no bloody idea what it is you argue about or why people are doing what they are doing.

I don't care how many Americans killed people or how many are in Jail. That does not justify more breaking of the law by illegals. And about my beliefs...you may not be impressed by them but I don't care if you are either.
You brought up all those people killed by illegals, said stats pale in comparison to those killed by Americans.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Just because Mexico has its economy in the crapper does not mean that every mexican has a God given right to come to America. Should there be no border at all? This is insanity on the part of both governments and must stop. And stop comparing it to the civil rights movement of the 1950's. Mexicans have no rights under our constitution. We could set the marines on the border tomorrow and shoot them all dead and it would be perfectly constitutional.
So you have no qualms about any other country shooting Americans dead should they cross into that country as long as it's legal to that country's laws? No calls of outrage. No demands that American military might be sent to a country that dare do that to the US?

I dont care what race they are.
I didn't say racism, I said xenophobia.

For Gods sake my first girlfriend was a different race than me. Give it a break.
And my fiancee's Japanese. Your point?

So you have no qualms about any other country shooting Americans dead should they cross into that country as long as it's legal to that country's laws? No calls of outrage. No demands that American military might be sent to a country that dare do that to the US?

If Americans wanted ( Haha) to cross into another country illegaly, that would be there problem. believe me, I am leaving for Bejiing on Sunday and if I was to try to go there illegaly I would be in a heap of trouble. So now you have tried to race bait me and accuse me of having a double standard when it comes to international law. Both attempts were laughable. Any other ploys?

I didn't say racism, I said xenophobia.


And my fiancee's Japanese. Your point?

Race and nationality do not play a role in my judgement. The laws of my country do.

If Americans wanted ( Haha) to cross into another country illegaly, that would be there problem. believe me, I am leaving for Bejiing on Sunday and if I was to try to go there illegaly I would be in a heap of trouble. So now you have tried to race bait me and accuse me of having a double standard when it comes to international law. Both attempts were laughable. Any other ploys?
Oh? You think Americans don't? Japan just started some very tough laws for those folks who overstay their visas.

Americans were some of the few first caught. They also howled the loudest.

And you still have no clue what xenophobia means, don't you?

Race and nationality do not play a role in my judgement. The laws of my country do.
And you don't even KNOW said laws, which makes me suspect your rightous anger about this.

Xenophobia: a phobic attitude towards strangers or too the unknown

Don' think I have that. Why would I be going to China by myself next week? Stop talking down to me please, its getting old. That has nothing to do with me wanting my nation's borders enforced. That seems to be too much to ask, that my country have control over who comes in. It's a crazy system.

I don't think you catch my drift. Even if it was IMPOSSIBLE TO COME HERE IN A LEGAL WAY for mexicans I would want my country's borders enforced.

well its really late, I'm off to bed.

The sad thing is, he must have spent a lot of time and effort on that first post. Shame it was bullshit. To be fair, the real land of opportunity for illegal immigrants is the UK, where they can come in illegally, not do any work and get given a nice house to live in and loads of benefits! Awesome! Also, as for what you were saying about so many of us wanting to live in America: I DON'T!

I'm totally for LEGAL immigration.

I'm totally for LEGAL immigration.

To an extent.

From what I've read of this thread a lot of seems to be concerned with the receiving country. Before you can complain about illegals in your country you got to think why they are leaving their own countries. For example some illegal here in the UK are from Kosovo. The government are aware of this BUT they are also aware of why they came here the ,Serbian-Kosovo War so sending them all back would be like sending them to suicide. To stop illegal immigration you need to help the country that the immigrants are coming from.

I live in the USA, and we aint all that great for being the land of the free and so on, I mean England, Canada, Netherlands, France all can have gays in the military and some form of universal healthcare, besides being democratic.

Is this a first? A troll thread turning into a seemingly reasonable discussion, with an apparently reformed troll taking part. You are witness my dear audience, to what some would call a miracle!
You are now all obliged to pay extra to leave

No not really, I just sometimes start things out being an @ss or loud, controversial or just out right rude gets attention most of the time, also sometimes I just like to stir the pot and see what in there, you have to admit it sometimes make for a very fun and heated conversation….LOL

So to any that may have been or were offended by the first paragraph of this topic sorry, take it for what it is worth, just a short rant…..and sorry.

not again