NationStates Jolt Archive

Yes, my thread title is making a stand against Americanised dating systems, it's dd/mm/yyyy dammit!

But anyway, I fail to see how anyone can fail to spot the gaping hole in the 'it was a cruise missile that hit the Pentagon!!!' claim. If the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile then where did Flight 77 go? We know that the plane and the people on it have vanished so what happened to them?

Of course, if you want to be really paranoid then you could claim that the government hijacked the flight, took it to a secret base, and killed everyone on it but that begs the question: if they already had a hijacked plane why did they need to use a cruise missile anyway?

In conclusion: you're idiots if you believe this lunatic claim.[/rant]

I think something wasn't right about the whole Pentagon attack.

Excuse me...I'm running low on tin foil and copper hangers...I'll be right back.

dd/mm/yyyy FTW!

Oh, and your question is pretty rhetorical, believing in most conspiracy theories requires you to be insane.

Some say there was a helicopter, some say there was awhite jet flying around just after the whatever hit the pentagon.

Because sometimes the reality is stranger...

Back in the days when the CIA was looking into ways of snuffing out Castro they decided on a new Bay of Pigs plan....but this time with fireworks...launched from a few subs sitting off shore...enough to convince ordinary Cubans that the 2nd coming had...come!

The population would rise up in rebellion while the island was invaded ala Bay of Pigs...

You know, they watch what you type on these boards. They know you are trying to expose them and they can get you. I have a scrambler helmet on that scrambles my brain waves so they always thing I'm replaying I Love Lucy in my head.


That mouse has a diode so they can hear you think.

Because sometimes the reality is stranger...

Back in the days when the CIA was looking into ways of snuffing out Castro they decided on a new Bay of Pigs plan....but this time with fireworks...launched from a few subs sitting off shore...enough to convince ordinary Cubans that the 2nd coming had...come!

The population would rise up in rebellion while the island was invaded ala Bay of Pigs...
You a Micheal Rupert fan?

If it was whatever kind of jet they said it was...wouldn't there be pieces of the plane? Wouldn't there be skid marks from the plane hitting the ground just before crashing into the building? The lawn right under the crash spot looks better than my yard!

Stop harping on this subject already ... the more people you reason with, the smaller the profits of the tin foil hat-making industry. :(

You a Micheal Rupert fan?

Who he?

Stop harping on this subject already ... the more people you reason with, the smaller the profits of the tin foil hat-making industry. :(

Tin foil, copper hangers, and the truth are all I have to combat the government!!

Besides, wouldn't a jet that large create more damage? And what of the security cameras from a nearby Sheridon Hotel and gas station. The FBI took their tapes after the blast, it's said that those tapes show what really hit the Pentagon.

If it was whatever kind of jet they said it was...wouldn't there be pieces of the plane? Wouldn't there be skid marks from the plane hitting the ground just before crashing into the building? The lawn right under the crash spot looks better than my yard!

You didn't answer my question: where did Flight 77 go?

Because sometimes the reality is stranger...

Back in the days when the CIA was looking into ways of snuffing out Castro they decided on a new Bay of Pigs plan....but this time with fireworks...launched from a few subs sitting off shore...enough to convince ordinary Cubans that the 2nd coming had...come!

The population would rise up in rebellion while the island was invaded ala Bay of Pigs...

Never heard that one before. :p

You didn't answer my question: where did Flight 77 go?

Good question. Maybe there was no flight 77? I don't know for sure.

Never heard that one before. :p

The government had plans to stage an attack on Guantanamo Bay to give the U.S. a good reason to invade Cuba. That was the jist of the plan, it was dismissed by the Secretary of defense, I believe.

You know, they watch what you type on these boards. They know you are trying to expose them and they can get you. I have a scrambler helmet on that scrambles my brain waves so they always thing I'm replaying I Love Lucy in my head.


That mouse has a diode so they can hear you think.

Don't worry, the walls of my nuclear bunker are lined with tin-foil.

They can't get me now!!!

Who he?
he wrote a book called "Crossing The Rubicon" and your post almost sounded like something he would say. I put two and two together.

Don't worry, the walls of my nuclear bunker are lined with tin-foil.

They can't get me now!!!

Copper hangers work well too.

Good question. Maybe there was no flight 77? I don't know for sure.

Really? I'm sure the families involved would be interested to know that.

So would whoever checked them in.

As would the airline who owned the plane.

And the company who sold it to them.

How much paranoia can you take?

Off to bed now, good night all. Sleep well under your foil blankets. :)

I don't know. Have you seen the documentary Loose Change?

Off to bed now, good night all. Sleep well under your foil blankets. :)

I'll be safe, they'll never get into my mind!

http://www.silentmouth.com/images/blog/TinFoilHat_MIT.jpg

I don't know. Have you seen the documentary Loose Change?

Have you seen all the films, interviews, and articles disproving it?

Have you seen all the films, interviews, and articles disproving it?

I'm too busy stocking up on tin foil!

Good question. Maybe there was no flight 77? I don't know for sure.
then where did the PEOPLE go? what about the cell phone records? people made calls from that flight after it was hijacked and before it hit the pentagon.

here's another reason why it wasn't a US government job...

if it had been, bush would have set up saddam hussein not osama bin laden. we can see from the 4.5 years since 9/11 that bush was willing to go pretty far to convince the world to invade iraq. mr ashcroft (attny general at the time) was so sick of his underlings worrying about bin laden and alqaeda that he forbade them from saying those words in his presence. thats not the mark of an administration that was looking to set up bin laden.

Did I say: No, there was never a flight 77, I said I wasn't sure. Alot of stuff points to something else hitting the Pentagon. Where's the debris from the jet?

The government had plans to stage an attack on Guantanamo Bay to give the U.S. a good reason to invade Cuba. That was the jist of the plan, it was dismissed by the Secretary of defense, I believe.

I do think you are correct! I had forgotten about Gitmo...

Indeed it did get canned....that just would have been taking the piss! LOL

he wrote a book called "Crossing The Rubicon" and your post almost sounded like something he would say. I put two and two together.

LOL nah...I be more into the Roman thing :)

You know..Julius Ceasar crossing the Rubicon precipitating the events which lead to his death

Yes, my thread title is making a stand against Americanised dating systems, it's dd/mm/yyyy dammit!

But anyway, I fail to see how anyone can fail to spot the gaping hole in the 'it was a cruise missile that hit the Pentagon!!!' claim. If the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile then where did Flight 77 go? We know that the plane and the people on it have vanished so what happened to them?

Of course, if you want to be really paranoid then you could claim that the government hijacked the flight, took it to a secret base, and killed everyone on it but that begs the question: if they already had a hijacked plane why did they need to use a cruise missile anyway?

In conclusion: you're idiots if you believe this lunatic claim.[/rant]
While I wouldn't call anyone who believes these things an idiot, I do agree that it seems completely loony to think that the government is in some way responsible for this. See, the problem with conspiracy theories that involve the government is that they assume the government is competent. Under Dubya, that's clearly not the case.

While I wouldn't call anyone who believes these things an idiot, I do agree that it seems completely loony to think that the government is in some way responsible for this. See, the problem with conspiracy theories that involve the government is that they assume the government is competent. Under Dubya, that's clearly not the case.

I don't want to toy with the idea of government involvement. I'd hate for it to be the truth. I wish I could believe it happened the way the government said it did.

I don't want to toy with the idea of government involvement. I'd hate for it to be the truth. I wish I could believe it happened the way the government said it did.
What do you mean, wish? Look, I'm not saying the government isn't witholding some info, but to state that it was explicitly involved in this seems extremely bizarre to me.

What do you mean, wish? Look, I'm not saying the government isn't witholding some info, but to state that it was explicitly involved in this seems extremely bizarre to me.

I don't know the level if any involvement. I know they're not telling the 100% truth on what happened.

911 conspiracy theorists are just people who have political agendas that run counter to that of the Bush administration. Their hate for the policies and personality of George W. Bush is so deep that they assume that the worst is always the truth . Well, this is the worst of the worst. I like honest debates on the issues and not backstabbing conspiracy weaving con artists. If you hate conservatives just say it and debate Iraq, debate abortion, debate gay marriage, debate everything. There is no need to convince yourself that the other side is evil. Lets try to get some civility back.

I don't know the level if any involvement. I know they're not telling the 100% truth on what happened.

Explain.

Explain.

Here's an example: The Sheridan Hotel and a gas station near the Pentagon had security cameras which taped what happened. The FBI swiftly confiscated these tapes and never released them. If they wanted to end the "Conspiracy nuts" and their ranting about the Pentagon. All they'd have to do was release those tapes.

Here's an example: The Sheridan Hotel and a gas station near the Pentagon had security cameras which taped what happened. The FBI swiftly confiscated these tapes and never released them. If they wanted to end the "Conspiracy nuts" and their ranting about the Pentagon. All they'd have to do was release those tapes.

I'd put that down to government beauracracy (I know, can't spell the damn word), and the fact that...well, why does the government care what a few people think? There are many other investigations that have conspiracy theories that they haven't released info on (IE JFK). What makes this so special?

I believe it was done by the terrorists. Eyewitnesses' may be mistaken about some things, but seeing a bloody plane hit a building is hardly one of them. Add to that the various pieces of video footage that have been released, and I see a case of some nutters hijacking a few planes and flying them into buildings.

I don't know the level if any involvement. I know they're not telling the 100% truth on what happened.
That we can agree on. However, they won't release the details in our lifetime until the bitterness of that day dies down.

No one has answered why there wasn't much if any debris from the jet? It couldn't have evaporated from the heat or anything. They never found the black box. they found the black boxes in the World Trade centers.

To answer the one question of why this is so important. JFK was one dead president. The dead on 9/11 number over 2,000.

No one has answered why there wasn't much if any debris from the jet? It couldn't have evaporated from the heat or anything. They never found the black box. they found the black boxes in the World Trade centers.

To answer the one question of why this is so important. JFK was one dead president. The dead on 9/11 number over 2,000.

Ok, time for (extremely) basic logic.

Plane go fast. Plane hit building. Plane carrying lots of fuel. Plane go boom. Go boom very big. Plane doesn't have to evaporate. Plane can fragment. Fragments can be small. When the building fell, stuff inside of it was crushed. Plane was inside building. Plane was crushed.

Is that slow enough?

No one has answered why there wasn't much if any debris from the jet? It couldn't have evaporated from the heat or anything. They never found the black box. they found the black boxes in the World Trade centers.

To answer the one question of why this is so important. JFK was one dead president. The dead on 9/11 number over 2,000.

That kinda says why it's important...

Ok, time for (extremely) basic logic.

Plane go fast. Plane hit building. Plane carrying lots of fuel. Plane go boom. Go boom very big. Plane doesn't have to evaporate. Plane can fragment. Fragments can be small. When the building fell, stuff inside of it was crushed. Plane was inside building. Plane was crushed.

Is that slow enough?

What about the wings? What about the huge engines? What about the rest of the plane. Are you going to say the ENTIRE plane fragmented into tiny tiny bits?

That kinda says why it's important...

Yes, a dead president is important. But over 2,000 people weren't killed in Dallas that day.

What about the wings? What about the huge engines? What about the rest of the plane. Are you going to say the ENTIRE plane fragmented into tiny tiny bits?

I'm fairly sure they found at least one of the engines. As to the rest - ploughing a plane going god knows how fast into a massive building that then collapses onto it does tend to make things break apart and become rather hard to identify, you know. They probably did find the wings; just in a large number of small parts.

What about the wings? What about the huge engines? What about the rest of the plane. Are you going to say the ENTIRE plane fragmented into tiny tiny bits?

Are we talking about the same event here? They DID find the pentagon black box, and most of the ones from the Trade Center were FUBAR due to the damage I just described.

And no, the plane didn't go into tiny, tiny bits at the Pentagon:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml
That also answers your "Huge engines" statement.

I'm fairly sure they found at least one of the engines. As to the rest - ploughing a plane going god knows how fast into a massive building that then collapses onto it does tend to make things break apart and become rather hard to identify, you know. They probably did find the wings; just in a large number of small parts.

They found a piece of an engine. But it wasn't the same kind that was on Flight 77. Who knows? I might just be a conspiracy nut who wraps too much tin foil on his head? Or, there might some sort of cover-up? Only time will tell.

They found a piece of an engine. But it wasn't the same kind that was on Flight 77. Who knows? I might just be a conspiracy nut who wraps too much tin foil on his head? Or, there might some sort of cover-up? Only time will tell.

Once again:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml

Please read it. It WAS the same kind of engine.

They found a piece of an engine. But it wasn't the same kind that was on Flight 77. Who knows? I might just be a conspiracy nut who wraps too much tin foil on his head? Or, there might some sort of cover-up? Only time will tell.

Chap on the last page has a link for you that dispels your worries.

Does this look like the damage a jet like Flight 77 would cause? Wouldn't there be holes which correspond with the wings and engines colliding with the building?

http://www.usni.org/resources/11September2001/Pentagon/Images/x_010914-F-8006R-003.jpg

Does this look like the damage a jet like Flight 77 would cause? Wouldn't there be holes which correspond with the wings and engines colliding with the building?

http://www.usni.org/resources/11September2001/Pentagon/Images/x_010914-F-8006R-003.jpg

Considering that hole is 90 feet wide, yeah, I'd say that's just about right.

As for the wings and engines, do we need to go through the "Go boom" talk again?

No one has answered why there wasn't much if any debris from the jet? It couldn't have evaporated from the heat or anything. They never found the black box. they found the black boxes in the World Trade centers.

To answer the one question of why this is so important. JFK was one dead president. The dead on 9/11 number over 2,000.
what makes you think that there was no debris from the plane? i recall seeing lots of plane pieces from the pentagon attack.

there probably ARE things that they are keeping secret. its the pentagon after all, they arent the most open bunch of guys in government

the stuff they are hiding is probably more on the order of "a member of the house of saud helped fund the attack" rather than "it was a cruise missile"

This is the degree or whatever at which they believe the jet hit the building

http://static.flickr.com/26/58934030_843c969563.jpg

So, do you think the wings just folded in and went boom? Surely there would be larger sections of the plane still left.

A Boeing 757-200 has a wing span of 121ft. So, did the whole plane compact into the 90ft. wide hole in the pentagon?

That mouse has a diode so they can hear you think.

And the government forces every telephone company to install a hidden microphone in every telephone handset - scary!

Lemme get my conspiracy disprovment link.

Found it. (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm)

I haven't heard any conspiracy theories regarding the hotel bombings in Jordan (on November 9, 2005).

What about the wings? What about the huge engines? What about the rest of the plane. Are you going to say the ENTIRE plane fragmented into tiny tiny bits?

OK, Here's a better example: Shoot a Full Metal Jacketed bullet at a wall. You'll be able to dig them out. Why? Its a piece of lead. Lead = heavy, and dense. That's why they DON'T make planes out of lead. Aluminum (ie, the kind used to build airplanes with) = fragile, very thin so as to be as light as possible. Now, shoot a HE artillery shell at a wall. Try and find all the pieces of that shell.

I dare you.

In fact, on further reflection, here's an idea: Look at any of the fortifications on the Normandy coastline. Some of those things took several tons of explosives worth of direct hits. And they're barely scratched.

If the Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile then where did Flight 77 go? We know that the plane and the people on it have vanished so what happened to them?

*thinks*

Ocean?

*thinks*

Ocean?
doesn't make sense. would be easier to kill them (easy to do in an enclosed environment) then crash the plane into the Pentagon. They could even "botch" it by having the plane bounce on the ground a couple of times to cut the velosity and reduce the damage.

doesn't make sense. would be easier to kill them (easy to do in an enclosed environment) then crash the plane into the Pentagon. They could even "botch" it by having the plane bounce on the ground a couple of times to cut the velosity and reduce the damage.

Yeah, true. I don't believe the conspiracy theory crap anyway. I'm struggling to find any motive why the US would do it, even if I did.

OK, Here's a better example: Shoot a Full Metal Jacketed bullet at a wall. You'll be able to dig them out. Why? Its a piece of lead. Lead = heavy, and dense. That's why they DON'T make planes out of lead. Aluminum (ie, the kind used to build airplanes with) = fragile, very thin so as to be as light as possible. Now, shoot a HE artillery shell at a wall. Try and find all the pieces of that shell.

I dare you.

In fact, on further reflection, here's an idea: Look at any of the fortifications on the Normandy coastline. Some of those things took several tons of explosives worth of direct hits. And they're barely scratched.


Wich still wouldnt account for the lack of debris, and the wings, wich would have been shorn off, and scattered on the outside of the building.

The hole is large mainly due to fire.
However, notice that the outside of the building, especially the lawn is NOT blazing with fire.

Remember, we are led to believe that the amount of jet fuel in a 757 is enough to bring down a skyscraper, as we saw in NY.

However..notice the pristine condition of the lawn....remember that much of the fuel is carried in tanks..in the wings of the plane.
This means that the tanks would have ruptured and spilled the contents onto the building, and especially the lawn.

However..the lawn is mostly undamaged.

Also, a few people have supposedly identified the engine part above as coming from a Predator drone.
If it is, this means it was either shot by us, or by someone we sold it to.
I remain unconvinced of that however.

I have no doubts that something is entirely fishy with the Pentagon, and all of 9/11, the extent of wich, I dont know.

There is a hotel next to the Pentagon, and its security surveillance videos cught the whole epidode.
The same is true for a gas station convenience store.

Both were seized by the Federal Government, and have not been released, although thier own surveillance wich is blurry, unviewable, and lacks frames, has.

If they have nothing to hide, lets see the other footage.

Yeah, true. I don't believe the conspiracy theory crap anyway. I'm struggling to find any motive why the US would do it, even if I did.


Foreign attacks on home soil rally the country to war.

See: Pearl Harbor.

America had no interest in WW2, until we were attacked.
Its largely believed PH was allowed to happen to rally the country.

What better way to gain sudden support for a war, then by seeing us get attacked, and then claiming to be going after those responsible, all the while, laying your hands on that juicy oil?

It's a FACT that Clinton knew Osama would be US's main priority.
We KNEW he was planning an attack on home soil, using jets as weapons.
Full information was given to Bush with a full write up and files by the former President, the day the new one took office.

Bush and his people KNEW it was going to happen.

I believe it was allowed to happen, so that support could be gained by Bush, for his imperialistic agenda.
Bush was planning to invade Iraq even before he was elected.
9/11 was the best thing that could happen to him.

It made 3000 martyrs for his cause.

Yes, a dead president is important. But over 2,000 people weren't killed in Dallas that day.

While this may sound harsh, the death of 2000 relatively unknown people is generally considered far less important than the death of a celebrity. Many more people die every hour due to wars, famine, diseases and so on and so on; but that bearely receives any attention in the press.

While this may sound harsh, the death of 2000 relatively unknown people is generally considered far less important than the death of a celebrity. Many more people die every hour due to wars, famine, diseases and so on and so on; but that bearely receives any attention in the press.


"One death is a tragedy, one million is a statistic."
-Joey Stalin.

On the Effectiveness of Aluminium Foil Helmets: An Empirical Study (http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/)

And yeah, I've been wondering about the same thing myself, especially since my last appointment with my psychiatrist during which he talked about this same set of conspiracies and how the Egyptians couldn't have possibly made the pyramids, et cetera. I smiled and nodded. Smiled... and nodded.

Wich still wouldnt account for the lack of debris, and the wings, wich would have been shorn off, and scattered on the outside of the building.

I dont remember seeing much plane debris from the towers. I believe most of it would be unreconisable. I would imagine the wings would have "folded" back against the fuselage and burnt up inside the walls of the pentagon.


If they have nothing to hide, lets see the other footage.

If they released it would you believe the footage is real, or when some nut claims the footage is doctored would you believe that, would that footage really sway your belief? I doubt it. The footage was probably seized for the investigation. The government probably see's no point in releasing it as conspiracy theorists wouldnt believe it anyway and would probably bring back painful memories for alot of people.

1. Nothing happened on Nov 9th. Get Over it.
2. ...and if you're talking about 9/11, I'd say that anyone from this thread who believes in this nonsense, but mocks religious people for believing as they do has to be the biggest hypocrite in the world. You're taking a well debunked conspiracy theory and putting a lot of belief in it.

1. Nothing happened on Nov 9th. Get Over it.
2. ...and if you're talking about 9/11, I'd say that anyone from this thread who believes in this nonsense, but mocks religious people for believing as they do has to be the biggest hypocrite in the world. You're taking a well debunked conspiracy theory and putting a lot of belief in it.

So, you believe EVERYTHING the government has told us about 9/11? I remember watching it during school as it happened, even then I was suspecious. How could 19 men possibly do all that. The government couldn't have screwed up THAT bad. Even with all the turf wars between the agencies, surely they should've put the pieces together. The whole thing just stinks. especially the Pentagon attack.

What about the "Able Danger Project" under Clinton's term?
Why were they shut down by his Penatgon people and most of their evidence destroyed, when they were closing in Atta and the 9/11 hijackers?
Why didnt Clinton kill Osama when they had in their sites from a Predator Drone? How hard would it have been to call in an airstrike?
Its easy to pin the blaime on Bush as to why he didnt do anything about it before it happened, but lets not forget the ones who were before him who could have stopped this!

What about the wings? What about the huge engines? What about the rest of the plane. Are you going to say the ENTIRE plane fragmented into tiny tiny bits?
http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2677866?refsite=7114&c=clod&cid=159&htv=12&htv=12&htv=12
watch video.
See plane fragment into tiny tiny bits!
If not work, type in F4 Phanton Jet Test Crash to Yahoo video.
See plane vaporize! Any questions?

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2677866?refsite=7114&c=clod&cid=159&htv=12&htv=12&htv=12
watch video.
See plane fragment into tiny tiny bits!
If not work, type in F4 Phanton Jet Test Crash to Yahoo video.
See plane vaporize! Any questions?

That jet is smaller than a Boeing 767-300. There's no way a 180ft. long jet with a wingspan of 121ft. just fragment into tiny tiny bits. Not like there's huge amounts of rubble falling ontop of it when it hit either. Not to say rubble didn't do any damage.

Your telling me a plane, any size plane flying over 400mph flying into a concret building will not practically vaporize on contact? Like the video shows, plane completly vaporizes hitting wall @ 500mph. No matter the size, a plane will practically disintegrate when it collides with a stationary object like a brick wall!

That jet is smaller than a Boeing 767-300. There's no way a 180ft. long jet with a wingspan of 121ft. just fragment into tiny tiny bits.


Actually, there sorta is, the same way the one in the video did. There some magic size barrier that stops that from happening we should know about?

Your telling me a plane, any size plane flying over 400mph flying into a concret building will not practically vaporize on contact? Like the video shows, plane completly vaporizes hitting wall @ 500mph. No matter the size, a plane will practically disintegrate when it collides with a stationary object like a brick wall!

Look at the attacks on the Twin Towers. When the planes hit, the wings dig into the buildings, creating holes made by them. I don't see that on the Pentagon.

Look at the attacks on the Twin Towers. When the planes hit, the wings dig into the buildings, creating holes made by them. I don't see that on the Pentagon.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/images/pent2.jpg

Holes, scorch marks...*shrug* Depends on the building.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/images/pent2.jpg

Holes, scorch marks...*shrug* Depends on the building.

I don't see any holes made from the wings.

http://www.usni.org/resources/11September2001/Pentagon/Images/x_010914-F-8006R-003.jpg

The only way it could have been a Boeing 767-300 was if the wings magically folded in and disappeared when the "plane" hit.

Dependson the building.
The walls were thicker on the Pentagon then on the WTC.
I saw the video of the construction of the WTC and those walls and supports were not all that thick. Pretty thin when you have to go for height and stabilty. Hell, I am not surprised that the wings were able to go through.
But the walls on the Pentagon are pretty thick.

The government had plans to stage an attack on Guantanamo Bay to give the U.S. a good reason to invade Cuba. That was the jist of the plan, it was dismissed by the Secretary of defense, I believe.

Dismissed? That shit's GOLD. I would have used that.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9iby6Afh3hEUEcBrTijzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12isu6o07/EXP=1148835999/**http%3a//www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/newyork/peopleevents/e_build.html

You can see the actual thickness of the walls and the columns on the building in the construction photos.

Dependson the building.
The walls were thicker on the Pentagon then on the WTC.
I saw the video of the construction of the WTC and those walls and supports were not all that thick. Pretty thin when you have to go for height and stabilty. Hell, I am not surprised that the wings were able to go through.
But the walls on the Pentagon are pretty thick.

There's no marks from where the wings hit. If they didn't penetrate the walls then they wouldn't left something. The walls may be thick, but there would be something.

I saw the video of the construction of the WTC and those walls and supports were not all that thick. Pretty thin when you have to go for height and stabilty. Hell, I am not surprised that the wings were able to go through.
But the walls on the Pentagon are pretty thick.

The Pentagon had almost no steel in its structure; it was not very strong because the walls were nothing more than prefabricated concrete slabs along with the floors and frame of the building. Also, the concrete was laid during the 1940's; the quality of it was further compromised by the accelerated rate of constuction and the need to conserve many materials for the war effort.

It makes perfect sense that the Pentagon would be so easily compromised by such an impace.

Still, concrete walls survive a little better against an aluminum bodied aircraft.

Still, concrete walls survive a little better against an aluminum bodied aircraft.

But there are no marks left from the wings! Even if the wings didn't penetrate, there would be marks from them.

There's no marks from where the wings hit. If they didn't penetrate the walls then they wouldn't left something. The walls may be thick, but there would be something.

Well, there were those scorch marks on either side of the hole, or the possibility that most of the wing would fold in against the fuselage, or maybe a good deal of the plane disintegrating on impact as was show to be a distinct possibility in that video...

But there are no marks left from the wings! Even if the wings didn't penetrate, there would be marks from them.

What kind of marks are you looking for, exactly?

Still, concrete walls survive a little better against an aluminum bodied aircraft.

A Boeing 757 weighs 272,000 pounds and is carrying 24,000 gallons of highly incendiary jet fuel at a speed of hundreds of miles per hour. The momentum is staggering and more than enough to punch through concrete, especially unreinforced from the 1940's.

Well, there were those scorch marks on either side of the holw, or the possibility that most of the wing would fold in against the fuselage, or maybe a good deal of the plane disintegrating on impact as was show to be a distinct possibility in that video.

It's tough to honestly believe the wings just folded in.

This looks like something smaller than a 767-300 hit the Pentagon if you ask me.

http://www.travelinlibrarian.info/911/WTCimages/pentagon.jpg

A Boeing 767-300 would do alot more damage than that. It just looks like an explosive device of some kind hit it and the floors collapsed.

A Boeing 757 weighs 272,000 pounds and is carrying 24,000 gallons of highly incendiary jet fuel at a speed of hundreds of miles per hour. The momentum is staggering and more than enough to punch through concrete, especially unreinforced from the 1940's.
.
As 60 Minutes II reported in their "Miracle of the Pentagon" episode on 28 November 2001, the section of the Pentagon into which the hijacked airliner was flown had just been reinforced during a renovation project:

"We made several modifications to the building as part of that renovation that we think helped save people's lives," says Lee Evey, who runs a billion-dollar project to renovate the Pentagon. They’ve been working on it since 1993. The first section was five days from being finished when the terrorists hit it with the plane.

The renovation project built strength into the 60-year-old limestone exterior with a web of steel beams and columns.

"You have these steel tubes and, again, they go from the first floor and go all the way to the fifth floor," says Evey. "We have everything bolted together in a strong steel matrix. It supports and encases the windows and provides tremendous additional strength to the wall."

When the plane hit at 350 miles an hour, the limestone layer shattered. But inside, those shards of stone were caught by a shield of cloth that lines the entire section of the building.

It is a special cloth that helps prevent masonry from fragmenting and turning into shrapnel. The cloth is also used to make bullet-resistant vests.

What kind of marks are you looking for, exactly?

Any kind of mark. The wings would've penetrated at least a little, but there's nothing. Maybe it was a wingless plane that hit.

http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/pentagon_757_crash.jpgy86449.jpg

Dont forget, in the video the wings kept going on the sides but the rest vaporized.
Wings are pretty thin compared to the the whole body of aircraft!

It's tough to honestly believe the wings just folded in.

Why? Wings hit reinforced concrete, wings snap near base, wings keep going.

This looks like something smaller than a 767-300 hit the Pentagon if you ask me.

I didn't ask you, because I don't think you'd really be a person who would know what a 767 hitting the Pentagon would look like, but more like someone who sees a 90-foot hole and assumes it was caused by something meausuring
90-feet

A Boeing 767-300 would do alot more damage than that.

Care to support that claim? Got any of the math for it? Simulations? Eh?

Any kind of mark. The wings would've penetrated at least a little,...

You sure?

http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/pentagon_757_crash.jpgy86449.jpg

Dont forget, in the video the wings kept going on the sides but the rest vaporized.
Wings are pretty thin compared to the the whole body of aircraft!

Seeing how the wings went through that simulation. Wouldn't it be safe to assume that they would leave holes of some size in the Pentagon?

You sure?

Yes, even if they didn't make these HUGE holes, they would've done some sort of damage.

I've heard the arguments and counter-arguments on the subject, and I'm not sure what to believe.


I know it's suspicious. I know Bush is untrustworthy.

At this point, though, it doesn't matter to me. How could I possibly dislike this administration any more than I already do? I can't. Even if he was proven to have orchestrated 9/11, I can't possibly hate him any more.

Yes, even if they didn't make these HUGE holes, they would've done some sort of damage.

How do you know that? And more, how do you know those black marks aren't your damage?

How do you know that? And more, how do you know those black marks aren't your damage?

You mean those scorch marks werer made by the wings?

http://www.usni.org/resources/11September2001/Pentagon/Images/x_010914-F-8006R-003.jpg

Seeing how the wings went through that simulation. Wouldn't it be safe to assume that they would leave holes of some size in the Pentagon?

Well, since the plane came in on an angle its possible that the wing damage was mostly destroyed in the collapse and fire.

You did see the pictures of the video of it hitting right?
http://www.elfterseptember.info/imgs/Pentagon_Pyrotechnik.jpg
That is a pretty big fireball for a Tomahawk to make by itself, or a bomb. Looks more like a huge fuel tank exploding!

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyiDDi3hE62oBq5qjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=128hfa5go/EXP=1148837187/**http%3a//www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/bgm-109.htm

A little insight to a Tomahawk's capability!

You mean those scorch marks werer made by the wings?

http://www.usni.org/resources/11September2001/Pentagon/Images/x_010914-F-8006R-003.jpg

*shrug* Maybe, maybe the wings gave way as soon as they hit the Pentagon. I've yet to see a reason to think otherwise.

Not to mention the fact that if it was a Global Hawk that crashed into it, that still doesnt explain the huge fireball.
The fuel tank is pretty small on that thing.
http://www.strategie.com.pl/teksty/technika/bezpilotowe2/Global_Hawk-1.jpg

I mean to say it could've been a cruise missle, not a tomahawk missile. cruise missles pack more of a punch.

I mean to say it could've been a cruise missle, not a tomahawk missile. cruise missles pack more of a punch.

Jets do too.

*shrug* Maybe, maybe the wings gave way as soon as they hit the Pentagon. I've yet to see a reason to think otherwise.

Even if the wings did somehow pop off on contact, wouldn't they make marks?

Tomahawk is a cruise missile!

Jets do too.

Sorry, but I'm still having a tough time believing it was a Boesing 767-300. The photo just doesn't prove that it was for me

http://www.usni.org/resources/11September2001/Pentagon/Images/x_010914-F-8006R-003.jpg

Tomahawk is a cruise missile!

I stand corrected, I'm not very knowledgeful on military ordinance.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/iraq/graphics/weapons_cruise_missiles.gif

Even if the wings did somehow pop off on contact, wouldn't they make marks?

Umm, not necessarily, no. Maybe your marks are under the scorches. If they folded in, you would mostly only see marks at the corners of the hole, assuming they made any.

Sorry, but I'm still having a tough time believing it was a Boesing 767-300. The photo just doesn't prove that it was for me

http://www.usni.org/resources/11September2001/Pentagon/Images/x_010914-F-8006R-003.jpg

And they prove it was a cruise missle for you?

Dont worry, not too many people know on these military subjects as much as I do!
:)
But I am Just showing you guys the size and weapons ordanance that are parts of the whole conspiracy.
Still that fireball is way to damn big for a missile of any type to make by itself!

http://chronicle.augusta.com/iraq/graphics/weapons_cruise_missiles.gif

The A6M-86C looks like a better canidate.

I've enjoyed this debate and arguing. Sadly, I must depart...I have to get more tin foil, good bye, for now

Dont worry, not too many people know on these military subjects as much as I do!
:)
But I am Just showing you guys the size and weapons ordanance that are parts of the whole conspiracy.
Still that fireball is way to damn big for a missile of any type to make by itself!

Maybe they nuked it. It's not as though it could have just been a jet.

Nuke?
Dont think so!
It would have had some major radioactive
contamination for miles around.
Not to mention the radiation sicknesses
that survivors would have had by now!
Plus its pretty hard to hide that!
Interesting idea, but definatly wrong.
Plus there would have had to have been WAY
more damage that collapse, and the lawn
definatelty would have been scorched by the
blast!

The A6M-86C looks like a better canidate.

I've enjoyed this debate and arguing. Sadly, I must depart...I have to get more tin foil, good bye, for now

Never heard of it!
Which country has that?

Hurray for 11/9! The Berlin Wall totally sucked, I'm glad it's gone. I'm not sure about any conspiracy surrounding it though. Maybe little grey men convinced the Soviets to let it get torn down.

Hurray for 11/9! The Berlin Wall totally sucked, I'm glad it's gone. I'm not sure about any conspiracy surrounding it though. Maybe little grey men convinced the Soviets to let it get torn down.

Or maybe the Soviet Union pretended it dissolved so that we'd let down our guard. Damn commies! They're just waiting for the right time to strike!

Did I say: No, there was never a flight 77, I said I wasn't sure. Alot of stuff points to something else hitting the Pentagon. Where's the debris from the jet?
Right here:

http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/0305911-flight77-sm.jpg

Maybe they nuked it. It's not as though it could have just been a jet.
It WAS just a jet -- a Boeing 757-223.

The government couldn't have screwed up THAT bad. Even with all the turf wars between the agencies, surely they should've put the pieces together.
It had nothing to do with "turf wars"; U.S. law put severe restrictions on the sharing of information between the CIA and FBI.

A Boeing 757-200 has a wing span of 121ft. So, did the whole plane compact into the 90ft. wide hole in the pentagon?
What gives you the bizarre idea that aluminum wings would remain intact and punch through a two-foot-thick concrete wall?

It WAS just a jet -- a Boeing 757-223.


It had nothing to do with "turf wars"; U.S. law put severe restrictions on the sharing of information between the CIA and FBI.


What gives you the bizarre idea that aluminum wings would remain intact and punch through a two-foot-thick concrete wall?

Logic doesn't apply to whackjob theories.

Neither does gravity.

Hurray for 11/9! The Berlin Wall totally sucked, I'm glad it's gone. I'm not sure about any conspiracy surrounding it though. Maybe little grey men convinced the Soviets to let it get torn down.There's a lot more history than just the Wall concerning Germany on November 9th...

There's a lot more history than just the Wall concerning Germany on November 9th...

Oh, that's right! Wasn't that the Kristalnacht?

As for the AGM-68C: 1000lbs of HE either way on the missiles, doesn't matter.

My grandmother was on her patio/balcony whatever, she watched the damn thing go overhead. Down Colombia Pike to Pentagon. Then there's also the words of my good friend, VADM Greene, who was DCNO(Plans, Policy, Operations). He was there that morning, but thankfully, his office is a few bits down the E-Ring.