NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: I don't give a flying horse-screw! If one of my brothers or sisters in arms wants the frakking McDonald's "golden arch" on their gravestone, they should have it! This is just too damned much! The VA needs to get a frakking GRIP!


Death Brings Fight for Wiccan Soldier (http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,98661,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl)


Associated Press | May 26, 2006
RENO, Nev. - Nevada officials are pressing the Department of Veteran Affairs to allow the family of a Soldier killed in Afghanistan to place a Wiccan symbol on his headstone.

Federal officials so far have refused to grant the requests of the family of Sgt. Patrick Stewart, 34, who was killed in Afghanistan last September when the Nevada Army National Guard helicopter he was in was shot down.

"Every veteran and military member deserves recognition for their contributions to our country," said Tim Tetz, executive director of the Nevada Office of Veterans Services.

The state's top veterans official said Thursday that he was "diligently pursuing" the matter in cooperation with Gov. Kenny Guinn, Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nev., and Rep. Jim Gibbons, R-Nev.

"Sgt. Stewart and his family deserve recognition for their contributions to our country," Tetz said.

"It's unfortunate the process is taking so long, but I am certain Sgt. Patrick will ultimately receive his marker with the Wiccan symbol," he said.

Stewart, of Fernley, who was posthumously awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart, was a follower of the Wiccan religion, which the Department of Veterans Affairs does not recognize.

Wiccans worship the Earth and believe they must give to the community. Some consider themselves witches, pagans or neo-pagans.

The Veterans Affairs' National Cemetery Administration allows only approved emblems of religious beliefs on government headstones. Over the years, it has approved more than 30, including symbols for the Tenrikyo Church, United Moravian Church and Sikhs. There's also an emblem for atheists - but none for Wiccans.

Stewart's widow, Roberta Stewart, said she's hopeful she'll receive permission to add the Wiccan pentacle - a circle around a five-pointed star - to her late husband's government-issued memorial plaque.

While Memorial Day services are scheduled Monday at the Northern Nevada Veterans Memorial Cemetery in Fernley, Roberta Stewart plans an alternative service at Fernley's Out of Town Park. She's calling the ceremony the Sgt. Patrick Stewart Freedom for All Faiths Memorial Service.

"This is discrimination against our religion," Roberta Stewart said.

"The least his country can do is give him the symbol of faith as he would have wished," she recently told the Daily Sparks Tribune.

The Rev. Selena Fox, senior minister of the Wiccan Circle Sanctuary in Barneveld, Wis., is among those who have been pushing the federal government to adopt the emblem. She said the Veterans Affairs Department has been considering such requests for nearly nine years with no decision.

"While this stonewalling continues, family of Soldiers who gave the ultimate sacrifice are still waiting for equal rights," Fox said by telephone.

"Sgt. Stewart was shot down by terrorists. He deserves to be recognized. I'm holding out hope that my ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War did not do so in vain and that the freedom of religion on which our country was founded will prevail," she said.

Officials for the National Cemetery Administration in Washington, D.C., did not immediately return telephone calls seeking comment.

Veterans Affairs Department spokeswoman Jo Schuda told the Las Vegas Review-Journal last month that the application was being processed but there was no new information on whether it will be approved.

Stewart enlisted in the Army after he graduated from Reno's Wooster High School in 1989 and served in Desert Storm and in Korea. After completing his active duty, he enlisted in the Nevada Army National Guard in 2005 and went to Afghanistan with Task Force Storm.

What Eutrusca said in his editorial comment.

I think Wicca is a big load of crap.
But if one of the dead soldiers wants its symbol on his grave, let him. Undisturbed. Resting. In Peace, and all that.

If it helps, there's been a lot of letters to the local paper in Reno that agrees with you.

It's probably because a lot of people wrongly associate this:
http://z.about.com/d/paganwiccan/1/0/C/1/pentacle.gif

With teh eebil satan.

:p

Right as usual, Eut. If he wanted a Pentagram, let him have a pentagram! He fought the (Apparently Christian?) government's war for them and they were happy to let him; the least they could do would be to let him go in his own way.

With teh eebil satan.

So what ?
Assume the guy actually had been a devout follower of the big red guy. He still died for his country, did he not ? Why should his religion not be allowed to be displayed on his grave ?

Right as usual, Eut. If he wanted a Pentagram, let him have a pentagram! He fought the (Apparently Christian?) government's war for them and they were happy to let him; the least they could do would be to let him go in his own way.
Amen! :)

So what ?
Assume the guy actually had been a devout follower of the big red guy. He still died for his country, did he not ? Why should his religion not be allowed to be displayed on his grave ?
^I'm with him.

Incidentally we do have a satanist in our navy... wonder how your nation would react to that...

With teh eebil satan

So what ?
Assume the guy actually had been a devout follower of the big red guy. He still died for his country, did he not ? Why should his religion not be allowed to be displayed on his grave ?


If my dead (Army vet) father can have a cross on his grave then this man for feck's sack can definitely have his Wiccan symbol.

Or is Freedom of Religion only freedom for the Christians?

They send him to war, he dies, the family wants to respect him, but they can't.

Loverly.

So what ?
Assume the guy actually had been a devout follower of the big red guy. He still died for his country, did he not ? Why should his religion not be allowed to be displayed on his grave ?
Hey, don't ask me, i'm on your side. Even if he wanted his headstone shaped like a phallus, what do I care?

If my dead (Army vet) father can have a cross on his grave then this man for feck's sack can definitely have his Wiccan symbol.

Or is Freedom of Religion only freedom for the Christians?
I love you.

:fluffle:

Hey, don't ask me, i'm on your side. Even if he wanted his headstone shaped like a phallus, what do I care?
Nothing wrong with that either, though whether you'd like to be remembered by placing a giant penis over your final resting place is another question.

So what ?
Assume the guy actually had been a devout follower of the big red guy. He still died for his country, did he not ? Why should his religion not be allowed to be displayed on his grave ?
Exactly. We as a nation say that we have freedom of religion. If that's true, what the hell difference does it make what a veteran, or the veteran's family, wants on his gravestone. This just pisses me all KINDS of off! :mad: :headbang:

Exactly. We as a nation say that we have freedom of religion. If that's true, what the hell difference does it make what a veteran, or the veteran's family, wants on his gravestone. This just pisses me all KINDS of off! :mad: :headbang:

Go, Eut!

Hey, don't ask me, i'm on your side. Even if he wanted his headstone shaped like a phallus, what do I care?
That they might not approve...

Nothing wrong with that either, though whether you'd like to be remembered by placing a giant penis over your final resting place is another question.
Hmmmm! [ smiles as he gets a faraway look ] :D

Wiccan symbol on veteran's gravestone? WTF, over?
Phew, I'm glad that's over.

Go, Eut!
Heh! Sorry about that, but as you well know, things affecting veterans are a flash-point with me. :)

Nothing wrong with that either, though whether you'd like to be remembered by placing a giant penis over your final resting place is another question.
Well, you wouldn't be forgotten in a hurry. Every time someone visited the cemetary, they'd notice it. :D

And you might even cause inappropriate laughter at funerals. :p

Phew, I'm glad that's over.
What??? :confused:

And you might even cause inappropriate laughter at funerals. :p
Which, of course, is the meaning of life. No HGTTG, please!

Well, you wouldn't be forgotten in a hurry. Every time someone visited the cemetary, they'd notice it. :D

And you might even cause inappropriate laughter at funerals. :p
KEWL! I would love it if everyone left my funeral chucking! :D

Mm, I'd rather people celebrated my life and that my tombstone had some use... so maybe not the whole thing phallic, maybe just a phallus on top?

I love you.

:fluffle:

:fluffle: :D

What??? :confused:
Sorry Eut, that's two of my bad jokes in two days. You should learn just to ignore them, or perhaps I should put a little disclaimer on the bottom. :p

Even if the engraving is government funded, I see no reason why the government needs to regulate what gets engraved.

Sorry Eut, that's two of my bad jokes in two days. You should learn just to ignore them, or perhaps I should put a little disclaimer on the bottom. :p
That's what your signature is for :p

:fluffle: :D
Ahhh you're from PA, no wonder why you're so smart :p

Sorry Eut, that's two of my bad jokes in two days. You should learn just to ignore them, or perhaps I should put a little disclaimer on the bottom. :p
LOL! How about something like: "This poster is not responsible for any adverse reactions to innane humor." :D

Even if the engraving is government funded, I see no reason why the government needs to regulate what gets engraved.
Because if its not regulating something it has no business regulating, what's its purpose at all?


inane only has one n, however.

LOL! How about something like: "This poster is not responsible for any adverse reactions to innane humor." :D
I like it. :p

*Tries on new sig for size*

Mm, I'd rather people celebrated my life and that my tombstone had some use... so maybe not the whole thing phallic, maybe just a phallus on top?
That would depend upon the size of women to whom you were attracted in life. :D

I like it. :p

*Tries on new sig for size*
LMAO! KEWL! :D

That would depend upon the size of women to whom you were attracted in life. :D
And what if you're attracted to men of a certain persuasion? :p

And what if you're attracted to men of a certain persuasion? :p
Have a mold made and let the stone-mason figure it out. :D

Have a mold made and let the stone-mason figure it out. :D
Hehe, I could try that...I tihnk I'm going to have to have a phallus on my grave when I die, now...

Since everyone seems to agree here, I guess I should play devils advocate to get a bit of discussion going...

Suppose the man had been a nazi. Or a KKK member. Or a follower of the Westboro Baptist Church.
Should he be allowed to get his swastika, black man on a noose or "God hates Fags" sign on his grave ? Or should he never have been allowed to join the military ?

I love you.

:fluffle:ditto!:cool:

Which, of course, is the meaning of life. No HGTTG, please!

Damned straight. :D

KEWL! I would love it if everyone left my funeral chucking! :D

Yeah, me too. :p

I think Wicca's a total load of crap.
But I agree with Eutrusca, if this guy believed it and he and his family want it displayed, display it. I don't see the fuss. In fact, the only reason I can see them stalling this long is to hide their bigotry.

You can't damn a man for their beliefs; if its legal he can have them all he wants. Says a fag, to point this out, and yes this does apply to "god hates fags". SO long as a homosexual can put on our grave "god hates fag-haters"

Since everyone seems to agree here, I guess I should play devils advocate to get a bit of discussion going...

Suppose the man had been a nazi. Or a KKK member. Or a follower of the Westboro Baptist Church.
Should he be allowed to get his swastika, black man on a noose or "God hates Fags" sign on his grave ? Or should he never have been allowed to join the military ?

I wouldn't support any censorship of any kind on graves, as your death is really the last oppurtunity you have to raise whatever point about yourself that you feel fit. The government, or anybody else for that matter, has no business on ethical or (bit weird for a theistically-apathetic person such as myself) spiritual terms adjusting a dead person's memorial.

But if the person's views are really so unapplicable to the nation's, I think the army should just turn to them and say "thanks, but no thanks".

as far as what religious symbol is engraved on the marker... who decided what religions/beliefs are acceptable?

did this soldier not give his life for his country? should we not honor this soldier?

it seems to me he served his country no questions asked, they did not deny his service as a practicing wiccan, but now his religion is an issue?!

as an American, I wonder if this really is the land of the free
posts/issues like this make the gray area recede
it's more black and white than ever

Ok, I know I'm going to go off because I see things like this day in and day out and I have to say this is just plain disrespect.

The U.S. Military Handbook For Chaplains officially recognizes Wicca as a religion and furthermore, we have an amendment in our Constitution (if it hasn't been eradicated by The Patriot Act) that protects people's freedom of religion and the expression thereof.

The Department of Veteran's Affairs has no say so in the matter.

DJ Genocyde's Bottom Line: VA, You Will Respect This Soldier's Wish, plain and simple.

Bottom Line Illustration:

We've been suckered time and again into believing that "terrorists" are stripping us/threatening our Constitutional freedoms and that we must rush overseas to some godforsaken rock to dodge bullets, scuds, IEDs, Imperial Star Destroyers, Vorpal Bunnies and whatever other fictional threat they make up for us. Ok, well if you believe that then how about starting with this one soldier's wish. Isn't his freedom won? He went, he fought and he died to protect this particular freedom which he cherished and it's being forcefully stripped from him. That part is a fact. Now, the part that is speculation but only made fact by the answer to the issue of whether or not he died directly in the combat zone is will his family also get shafted out of benefits promised to them by our military. Anyway, I digress. Back to the point.

This war has been nothing less than insults on our fighting men and women. First, I don't agree with this war or any for that matter. It reflects poorly on us as a society BUT this man did what he believed in. Give it to him

I've seen this disrespect time and again. I've watched with a friend as her dad died as a result of cancer from the agent orange he got hosed down with during just one of two tours in Vietnam and the VA denied him his benefits. The VA hospital in Arizona even had the gall to deny the family his personal effects after he died. I've watched as people who come back from tours in Bosnia completely unstable get locked up in jails and prisons because the VA denied their use of mental health facilities and professionals. That's just two of the many things I've seen that I can recall and now I have to look at this? No! Unacceptable! Wrong!

I've had to watch as The Idiot Child stole two elections after going AWOL on his own National Guard unit to avoid going to Vietnam only to later let a House Resolution pass that makes it mandatory for every man and woman ages 18 - 42 now serve two years in the military. I'm not lying here, it's now compulsory.

Ok, now, let's see if I'm CRYSTAL Stinkin Clear on this. First, the VA denies rights and benefits at will despite what's in the Last Will And Testament that every soldier writes prior to being deployed much less the fact that the contracts are now no longer legal and binding on their end. That's right, once you sign up, it doesn't matter if that contract says two years, the laws now state that they can keep you as long as they like and without justification.
We have been made to believe that we need more controls and levels of fear under our Federal Government (and if you don't believe me, just ask yourself when the Color Coded Alert System has ever gone into the green meaning we're all safe)and finally the clincher here (and people, feel free to throw in anything I've missed) It's all compulsory...you have no choice.

No way!

The Very Least This soldier has earned is that symbol if he wants it. You don't have to like it but understand, it's going to be there and if you're so afraid of seeing it then the solution is simple, don't look at his particular Memorial. It's not yours. It's none of your business. It's bad enough our rights as citizens are being eroded more quickly than the Louisiana Coastline during Hurricane Katrina but still, our soldiers signed up as volunteers with that concept that they were defending all freedoms. Is it their fault that they've been sent out somewhere to kill off entire generations? No, not at all so it's about time we quit spitting on them and give them the last few things they are Owed by the Government and Us as The People.

And THAT's My Bottom Line

Perhaps if the powers that be won't let the family display a pentagram, perhaps they might allow this picture instead?

http://www.samliquidation.com/do2m5s.gif

Since everyone seems to agree here, I guess I should play devils advocate to get a bit of discussion going...

Suppose the man had been a nazi. Or a KKK member. Or a follower of the Westboro Baptist Church.
Should he be allowed to get his swastika, black man on a noose or "God hates Fags" sign on his grave ? Or should he never have been allowed to join the military ?

I'm afraid your analogy doesn't work. All of the groups you mention define themselves through hatred and intolerance towards others, Wicca doesn't.

I could not agree more !!!!!!


out of curiosity what do atheist soldiers get on their grave ???


COMMENTARY: I don't give a flying horse-screw! If one of my brothers or sisters in arms wants the frakking McDonald's "golden arch" on their gravestone, they should have it! This is just too damned much! The VA needs to get a frakking GRIP!


Death Brings Fight for Wiccan Soldier (http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,98661,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl)snip


.

Now this is interesting. My grandfather, a WW2 vet, is buried at Calverton National Cemetery in NY. I have visted that cemetery many times -- it's quite nice, park style, lovely landscaping. All the headstones are the same size and shape, of course -- military issue -- and they've all got the religious symbols in the same place and size (or no symbol), per request of the soldiers and/or their families. I remember being quite struck by the variety of symbols, including christian, jewish, muslim, sikh, hindu, freemasons AND pentacles -- which I assumed were for pagan soldiers.

So if a national cemetery in NY can put pentacles on a headstone, what the hell is the problem in Nevada?

Are the bureaucrats in Nevada ignoring the rules in order to be bigots? Or are the bureaucrats in New York ignoring the rules in order not to be bigots?

I could not agree more !!!!!!


out of curiosity what do atheist soldiers get on their grave ???

Yeah, I'd like to know too. I'll see if I can find out.

I'm afraid your analogy doesn't work. All of the groups you mention define themselves through hatred and intolerance towards others, Wicca doesn't.
In addition, nazi and KKK are not religions. And the Westboro Baptists (A) probably would not join up to fight for a country that doesn't hate homosexuals and (B) would have a cross just like all the other Christians. The headstones don't specifiy denominations.

This is one time I'm in 100% agreement with Eutrusca. I'm not really a veteran worshipper and I find everyone's religion to be silly and a waste of time, but I would never take away their right to it or their right to represent it.

Unfortunately, this is America and you're either with Jebus or against him.

*sigh*

Suppose the man had been a nazi. Or a KKK member. Or a follower of the Westboro Baptist Church. Should he be allowed to get his swastika, black man on a noose or "God hates Fags" sign on his grave ?


Yep. I don't have to like it, but if he considered that his religion, or part of his religion, it should have been printed on his grave. It might be offensive, but unless he's instructing others to break laws, it's protected speech.

(I'm kind of iffy on the noose image. That could be interpreted as instruction to a hate crime, but I'd definitely support his right to have the KKK motto, the letters KKK, even a picture of the hood on his grave. It's worse than offensive to me, but it's a protected right. And violating that is even more offensive.)

I'm afraid your analogy doesn't work. All of the groups you mention define themselves through hatred and intolerance towards others, Wicca doesn't.

Really? Then why do so many Wiccans spend so much time and effort bashing Christianity? I don't think this is the thread for this argument, but I've only seen two religions whose followers don't go around actively trashing others: Buddhism and Pastafarianism.

What if the last will of the deceased was to have a large pair of (stone, marble, whatever) breasts chiseled onto his monument?

"Scratch that, Johnny, we can't do anything like that... he gets a cross."

How far should we go in granting such requests?

out of curiosity what do atheist soldiers get on their grave ???

There's a list of the available symbols here (http://www.cem.va.gov/hmemb.htm). Atheism is about half way down and looks quite cool actually. There's also a humanist sybol near the bottom.

What if the last will of the deceased was to have a large pair of (stone, marble, whatever) breasts chiseled onto his monument?


Then that *would* be my hero.

What if the last will of the deceased was to have a large pair of (stone, marble, whatever) breasts chiseled onto his monument?

"Scratch that, Johnny, we can't do anything like that... he gets a cross."

How far should we go in granting such requests?
Are you suggesting that some bureaucrat should get to decide that someone's religious symbol is obscene and therefore he can just be lumped into whatever religion the bureaucrat approves, whether it was his religion or not?

Not only is that amazingly bigoted, it's also unrealistic. I presume you have seen military headstones? They are not decorative. They are not individualistic. They are very plain. They all have the exact same information on them -- name, rank, service, war, religion (optional), with space on the back for the soldier's spouse. The symbols are likewise very plain, and always the most abstract geometric symbols possible in order to maintain the uniform look. There will never be a US military headstone featuring the kind of breasts that might get your knickers in a twist. So relax.

Really? Then why do so many Wiccans spend so much time and effort bashing Christianity? I don't think this is the thread for this argument, but I've only seen two religions whose followers don't go around actively trashing others: Buddhism and Pastafarianism.
I've only seen a few individual Wiccans bashing Christianity, and they were bigots about other things too. Mostly I just hear Wiccans complaining about Christian bigots bashing Wicca.

There's a list of the available symbols here (http://www.cem.va.gov/hmemb.htm). Atheism is about half way down and looks quite cool actually. There's also a humanist sybol near the bottom.
I stand corrected about them not showing denominations. Apparently, they've updated a bit. There are lots of just plain old crosses at Calverton, but I didn't even see that on the linked list. EDIT: first cup of coffee syndrome -- it's the first symbol on the freaking list. (where's my second cup?)

And, apparently the NY bureaucrats are approving symbols that are not on that list, because I remember seeing pentacles on headstones at Calverton. And freemason symbols, too.

Too bad they didn't show an image of the Islamic 5-pointed star (last item on the list). Is it a pentacle? Because I saw pentacles -- 5-pointed stars in a circle.

Eckencar but not Wicca ??

There's a list of the available symbols here (http://www.cem.va.gov/hmemb.htm). Atheism is about half way down and looks quite cool actually. There's also a humanist sybol near the bottom.

oh, for pities sake! WHATEVER HAPPENED TO A DEAD MAN'S LAST REQUEST?!?!
I mean, good God, even Nero honored it! WHY AREN'T WE?! Are we worse than an overweight, paranoid emperor?!

wicca is the national religion of leftismo. although we keep church and state very separate, it is belived that the goddess runs everything.

our national policy is NOT governed by the lunar cycle by the way:p

oh, for pities sake! WHATEVER HAPPENED TO A DEAD MAN'S LAST REQUEST?!?!
I mean, good God, even Nero honored it! WHY AREN'T WE?! Are we worse than an overweight, paranoid emperor?!
Yes, apparently, a paranoid emperor who rides bikes and clears brush is worse than a fat one. ;)

In addition, nazi and KKK are not religions.

That however is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. If the person in question considers his affiliation with the nazis more important than his religious beliefs - let him have the swastika. After all, if someone has devoted their life to stop whaling, would a whale or greenpeace logo on their tomb not be logical ? Even if it is not religious ?

The problem is: are there symbols we should not allow; or does everyone agree with the concept "if his convictions did not stand in the way of enlistment, they should be allowed on his grave" ?

And as a sidenote: yes, I suck as devils advocate.

So where was that religious freedom again? Maybe we forgot to add a wall of separation between church and military. I guess it is pretty hard to separate the violent and the Christian :p

As a Nevadan I will be sending in a letter to support the Wiccan soldiers wishes.

Really? Then why do so many Wiccans spend so much time and effort bashing Christianity? I don't think this is the thread for this argument, but I've only seen two religions whose followers don't go around actively trashing others: Buddhism and Pastafarianism.

Wiccans don't tend to bash Christianity, most of them hang around on web forums claiming that everyone hates them and generally being emo.

Incidently has anyone read the hate mail that venganza.org gets? It's a hilarious read if you've got the time.

Incidently has anyone read the hate mail that venganza.org gets? It's a hilarious read if you've got the time.

It is especially ironic that most of it claims that the FSM "mocks God", while the whole idea behind the FSM is based on the claims of the IDsupporters that ID does not make claims about the nature of the designer.

Supporter: "ID is NOT Christian. We do not speculate on the nature of the designer"
Pastafarian: "So it could be a flying bunch of sentient spaghetti ?"
Supporter: "Stop mocking God, you filthy heathen !"

This makes me wonder, as a Buddhist, how acceptable a Buddhist Svastika (which I've seen on a fair number of gravestones here, and would probably like on mine) would be on a US military gravestone. I lean towards that "Unitarian Flaming Chalice".

Eckencar but not Wicca ??


Sorry who said this, I would be very interested on your views of this umm practice if you know anything about it? Eckencar that is not Wicca.

Whether its a cross or a star or a swastika or a fucking unicorn, I say a fallen soldier (or their family) should get whatever symbol they want on their gravestone. The fact that there is ANY debate over this whatsoever is disgusting.

Whether its a cross or a star or a swastika or a fucking unicorn, I say a fallen soldier (or their family) should get whatever symbol they want on their gravestone. The fact that there is ANY debate over this whatsoever is disgusting.

Exactly so.

Whether its a cross or a star or a swastika or a fucking unicorn, I say a fallen soldier (or their family) should get whatever symbol they want on their gravestone. The fact that there is ANY debate over this whatsoever is disgusting.

No, only taboos are disgusting. Even though I am fully in agreement with the rest of your post.

As an aside, don't Wiccans consider themself separate from Pagans and Neo-pagans?

As an aside, don't Wiccans consider themself separate from Pagans and Neo-pagans?

Naaaa they're all from the same sorta root faith.

I think Wiccans are insane, but this guy deserves to have his religion respected.

No, only taboos are disgusting. Even though I am fully in agreement with the rest of your post.
I don't have any problem with taboos. I happen to believe in several, myself. Taboos are opinions, and opinions are perfectly fine by me. What I have a problem with is when some jackass thinks that their opinions belong on other people's gravestones.

Personally, I think the Christian cross is a symbol of some pretty disgusting and shameful beliefs. It would be reasonable to say that I find the Christian cross offensive, in that it stands for values that offend my own. But do I think, for one instant, that my opinions on the cross should be even remotely considered if a Christian soldier wants a cross on his grave? FUCK NO.

Whether its a cross or a star or a swastika or a fucking unicorn, I say a fallen soldier (or their family) should get whatever symbol they want on their gravestone. The fact that there is ANY debate over this whatsoever is disgusting.I'd find it funny if some of the gravestones had the finger on them. I know some guys that would pull it off...

I don't have any problem with taboos. I happen to believe in several, myself. Taboos are opinions, and opinions are perfectly fine by me. What I have a problem with is when some jackass thinks that their opinions belong on other people's gravestones.

Personally, I think the Christian cross is a symbol of some pretty disgusting and shameful beliefs. It would be reasonable to say that I find the Christian cross offensive, in that it stands for values that offend my own. But do I think, for one instant, that my opinions on the cross should be even remotely considered if a Christian soldier wants a cross on his grave? FUCK NO.


Heh and lets not get started on the whole the crucifix being a graven image huh!

Oh sorry I was looking at the "offical" list of "religions" and you can have an EK headstone but not a pentacle. Clear as mud I was.
Sorry who said this, I would be very interested on your views of this umm practice if you know anything about it? Eckencar that is not Wicca.

I gotta agree with most of what you said Eut. Except the golden arches bit. Unless a soldier really did worship Ronald Mc Donald that is.
Anyway since freedom of religion is guaranteed and freedom from religion is not guaranteed in the U.S. they have no business censoring his grave marker.

Is there a letter writing campaign currently going on?

One of those actually might be of benefit in this instance.

Heh and lets not get started on the whole the crucifix being a graven image huh!

I wonder what would have happened if Jesus had died in an electric chair.

I wonder what would have happened if Jesus had died in an electric chair.

I prefer to wonder about this:

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/2867/jesusgirl5lx.gif

Note: contains naked breasts. Do not click if you are shy or in Iran.

Interesting thing about Wicca and the Pagan religions. A great number of holidays celebrated by those faiths are the actual holidays more formalized religions adopted, renamed and now celebrate.

The word "pagan" simply refers to country people. The Roman Catholic religion in a very smart manner adopted and "Christianized" the Equinoxes and other key Pagan holidays.

Not all Pagans believe in witchcraft or magic. Wicca is not a sect of Satanism. Pagans generally worship nature and the Earth.

I could write pages on it and it would be more informative, but I feel like I would be wasting my time. You see, Wicca and Pagan religions have been thoroughly slandered and libeled by Christians claiming that Wicca and the Pagan faiths are somehow inherently evil, when it is simply not true.

The best insight I may give into the faiths is the Wiccan Rede:

"Do as ye will, and do ye no harm."

I find it abominable that our government is so Christianized it refuses to recognize it's own predecessor faith.

Let the man's family have the comfort of his religious symbol.

Oh, and for the ignorant out there there are TWO names for the symbols. One is Pentagram and the other is Pentacle.

Upright pentacles and pentagrams are among the most widely used religious symbols. They have been used in many eras and by many cultures and religions of the world: by ancient Pagans, ancient Israelites, Christians, magicians, Wiccans and others.

Some religious and spiritual groups have used the inverted pentacle.

During the 20th century, Satanists inverted the upright pentacle and adopted it as their own symbol.

The inverted pentacle with a goat's head is called the Sigl of Baphomet. The term may have come from two Greek words, baphe and metis, meaning "absorption of knowledge." It has also been called the Black Goat, Devil's Goat, Goat Head, Goat of Mendes, and Judas Goat. Its first appearance appears to have been during the vicious interrogation of members of the Knights Templar by the Christian Inquisition.

Today, the Baphomet is widely used by religious Satanists. The Church of Satan also uses a second symbol which is an infinity sign (a figure 8 on its side). A Roman cross is placed on top with a second, longer cross piece added beneath the top cross piece.

Many conservative Christians do not differentiate between Wicca and Satanism, or between upright and inverted pentacles/pentagrams. All are viewed as symbols representing evil, violence and lawlessness.

Really? Then why do so many Wiccans spend so much time and effort bashing Christianity? I don't think this is the thread for this argument, but I've only seen two religions whose followers don't go around actively trashing others: Buddhism and Pastafarianism.
Uh...you really had to ask that question? I mean, you actually had to type it out and click "submit"?

I'm no religion expert, but let me go out on a limb and hazard a guess. SOME Wiccans (that's SOME) spend time and effort on bashing Christianity because SOME Christians spend a lot more time and effort bashing anything not Christian and most especially Wiccan/Pagan adherents. Generalizations aside (and boy, yours was a sweeper), when the fractured majority (Christian sects and denominations) gets together, it tends to be in the service of denouncing something perceived as anti-Christian by its very existence, let alone any militance or tract-slinging. Wiccans don't condemn entire non-Wiccan beliefs to the Lake of Fire for eternity. In fact a general sense of "do what you will, but harm none" tends to permeate the Wiccan ethos. Do ALL Christians go around condemning those who are not their own? Certainly not, but the ratio of judgmental Christians to judgmental Wiccans has got to be very large. I've known realistic Christians and I've known whcked-out Wiccans and vice-versa.

As far as non-bashing religions, you can include Shinto, animism and pantheism. They haven't got the time to bash anyone else -- too many gods.

What if the last will of the deceased was to have a large pair of (stone, marble, whatever) breasts chiseled onto his monument?

"Scratch that, Johnny, we can't do anything like that... he gets a cross."

How far should we go in granting such requests?
You're kidding, right? Are you one of theose people who condemn gay marrieage because you think it'll lead to people marrying their pets? I ask because that's the same logic you're applying with your scenario.

Despite the appearance on television, breasts are not a religion or system of beliefs. Emblems representing the soldier's belief system/recognized religion is the topic here.

There's a list of the available symbols here (http://www.cem.va.gov/hmemb.htm). Atheism is about half way down and looks quite cool actually. There's also a humanist sybol near the bottom.
I disagree with the aitheist symbol looking cool. The old-school atom symbol suggests strongly that the atheist buried beneath it was strictly a science-oriented rejectionist of theism. I value a belief-like reliance on science only slightly more than I value religion (which is not a lot). Were I a soldier, I think I'd leave mine blank.

Thanks for the link, though!

I could not agree more !!!!!!

out of curiosity what do atheist soldiers get on their grave ???
Not sure, but I think us agnostics get a huge frakking question mark! :D

Pastafarianism.
Uh ... worship of pizzas? :D

What if the last will of the deceased was to have a large pair of (stone, marble, whatever) breasts chiseled onto his monument?

"Scratch that, Johnny, we can't do anything like that... he gets a cross."

How far should we go in granting such requests?
LMAO! Hmmm! How about a huge stone phallus surmouting two large breasts! Oooo! :D

Not sure, but I think us agnostics get a huge frakking question mark! :D
Someone posted a link to a list of grave stone symbols somewhere in this thread.

And yeah, I think a question mark could be good for you. Or a guy sitting on a fence, haha.

There's a list of the available symbols here (http://www.cem.va.gov/hmemb.htm). Atheism is about half way down and looks quite cool actually. There's also a humanist sybol near the bottom.
I really like them both, especially the "Humanist Emblem of Spirit."

Are you suggesting that some bureaucrat should get to decide that someone's religious symbol is obscene and therefore he can just be lumped into whatever religion the bureaucrat approves, whether it was his religion or not?

Not only is that amazingly bigoted, it's also unrealistic. I presume you have seen military headstones? They are not decorative. They are not individualistic. They are very plain. They all have the exact same information on them -- name, rank, service, war, religion (optional), with space on the back for the soldier's spouse. The symbols are likewise very plain, and always the most abstract geometric symbols possible in order to maintain the uniform look. There will never be a US military headstone featuring the kind of breasts that might get your knickers in a twist. So relax.
ROFLMAO!! Awwwww! And I had my heart set on crossed breasts and phallus! :D

our national policy is NOT governed by the lunar cycle by the way:p
Well, shit! That actually might be more effective than what we've seen lately! :D

COMMENTARY: I don't give a flying horse-screw! If one of my brothers or sisters in arms wants the frakking McDonald's "golden arch" on their gravestone, they should have it! This is just too damned much! The VA needs to get a frakking GRIP!

You are right. If the VA gave a flying f... about us they would have fired the bastard that exposed 26.5 million of us to identiy theft. :mad: :mad: :mad:

If my dead (Army vet) father can have a cross on his grave then this man for feck's sack can definitely have his Wiccan symbol.

Or is Freedom of Religion only freedom for the Christians?
Don't be silly. They said in the article they have symbols for 30 different faiths. There ARE more than just Christians here, despite what Dubya woud want you to think.

Hopefully, they will add this one pronto.

Don't be silly. They said in the article they have symbols for 30 different faiths. There ARE more than just Christians here, despite what Dubya woud want you to think.

Hopefully, they will add this one pronto.
I noticed that there are alot of variations on the Christian emblems. One wonders how that came about.

I noticed that there are alot of variations on the Christian emblems. One wonders how that came about.

...Lots of variations in Christians?

Don't be silly. They said in the article they have symbols for 30 different faiths. There ARE more than just Christians here, despite what Dubya woud want you to think.

Hopefully, they will add this one pronto.

30 differetn Christian faiths anyway :p

The Veterans Affairs' National Cemetery Administration allows only approved emblems of religious beliefs on government headstones. Over the years, it has approved more than 30, including symbols for the Tenrikyo Church, United Moravian Church and Sikhs. There's also an emblem for atheists - but none for Wiccans.

SAY WHAT?!

So the coolest religious symbol they don't have...but they have one for those who have no religion at all?

American governing bodies are fucked up.

...Lots of variations in Christians?

Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Church of Christ, Wesleyan....need I continue?

Someone posted a link to a list of grave stone symbols somewhere in this thread.

And yeah, I think a question mark could be good for you. Or a guy sitting on a fence, haha.
LMAO! You twit! :p

You are right. If the VA gave a flying f... about us they would have fired the bastard that exposed 26.5 million of us to identiy theft. :mad: :mad: :mad:
Oh, God. Don't EVEN get me sarted on THAT one! :headbang: :mad:

COMMENTARY: I don't give a flying horse-screw! If one of my brothers or sisters in arms wants the frakking McDonald's "golden arch" on their gravestone, they should have it! This is just too damned much! The VA needs to get a frakking GRIP!
Yup, sounds about right to me...

I agree. it shouldn't matter what's on the tombstone. if they want a cross, star of david, Pentagram or even the Ancient Egyptian symbol for the Sun, it shouldn't matter.

COMMENTARY: I don't give a flying horse-screw! If one of my brothers or sisters in arms wants the frakking McDonald's "golden arch" on their gravestone, they should have it! This is just too damned much! The VA needs to get a frakking GRIP!




I didnt bother reading the article.
I am Christian....good for me.

Eutrusca somes up all logical thoughts on matter.
How dare some pencil pushing feckers attempt to dictate anything about a fallen sodiers grave stone.

When I read the article I was astonished that it would even be a question, then I was irritated.

I have Wiccan friends in the Marines and the Navy, the Pentacle is on their dogtags, along with the designation for Wiccan. If they can have it on their dogtags and if they can practice Wicca openly while in the military, then why can't they have the Pentacle on their headstone(s)?

But, since Wicca is one of the fastest growing religions in the US, I doubt that it will be left out for very long.

It's bizarre that they would do this. I'm Christian, but just because I have different beliefs than someone else does NOT mean that I am going to dictate what can appear on their grave marker!

So what ?
Assume the guy actually had been a devout follower of the big red guy. He still died for his country, did he not ? Why should his religion not be allowed to be displayed on his grave ?

I guess you know by now that the "big red guy" is not worshipped by wiccans. Happy embarrassment. May you long remember it.

COMMENTARY: I don't give a flying horse-screw! If one of my brothers or sisters in arms wants the frakking McDonald's "golden arch" on their gravestone, they should have it! This is just too damned much! The VA needs to get a frakking GRIP!
wow! i'm agreeing with eutrusca :eek: (actually not the first time but, whatever). this is mental, i can't believe the veterans association thingy honestly believes they can get away with telling this dead dude's family that he can't have a memorial fitting to who he was. this is truly moronic and surely a breach of the guy's rights as set down by the us constitution.

I guess you know by now that the "big red guy" is not worshipped by wiccans. Happy embarrassment. May you long remember it.

Comprehensive reading is tough, isn't it ?
Try reading the post again. Happy embarrasment.

As far as non-bashing religions, you can include Shinto, animism and pantheism. They haven't got the time to bash anyone else -- too many gods.

Sorry ... just a quick "tee hee" to that one. :D

Uh ... worship of pizzas? :D

ROFL ... no ...

Pastafiarianism ...

http://www.venganza.org/

Enjoy!

Not sure, but I think us agnostics get a huge frakking question mark! :D

LOL - good one :p

I want a smilie on my tombstone. :)

Wow, Forrest makes a good point! o_O

Very well, allow the occultist to have his say, then.

With STYLE.

Now, lessee... How shall I go about it, how shall I go about it... Mmm... Meh. I'll begin with plain old pointslinging.

Wiccans have that thing about not killing even more rigorous than Christianity, so it's a wonder how a wiccan could rationalize being in the military. If he ACCEPTED what the Three-Fold Law he believed in had in store for him, though, well, okay for him.

However, my point was not that being a wiccan made him a bad soldier, but that being a soldier made him a bad wiccan. As such, allow me to say that in caps so I don't get misinterpreted:

OF COURSE THEY SHOULD ALLOW THE WICCAN SYMBOL (or ONE of the several, what does he want, the moons, the pentagram or?) IN HIS GRAVE! OF FRIGGIN' COURSE! IF THE US DOESN'T ALLOW THIS, IT'LL SIGNAL THE TRANSFORMATION, BY COMMANDER-IN-CHIMP, OF THE US IN A PRE-9-11 AFGHANISTAN-STYLE THEOCRACY!

Chaotes (practicers of chaos magick) work by their own personal ethos (thus it's conceivable that one could have no qualms about going to other countries to kill) and I damn sure would flip if a chaote didn't get the 8-arrowed star on his grave due to pseudo-christian cavemen that attack whatever they see and forget that Christ was once persecuted as well!

Ah, I have it. It is settled, this one situation calls for our nice green-suit-dressed friend...

Ladies and gentlemen, I summon to the bench...

THE RIDDLER!

Considering that Christ was persecuted by the Romans, aren't the bureaucrats emulating the Romans of the time, and thus, being as un-Christian as it comes?

If the guy accepted to forsake one of the principles of his religion in the name of state, shouldn't that state let him embrace said principles upon his death?

Won't that utter lack of freedom of religion and of respect for the Constitution harm the efforts to get people to fight by showing them that they have no freedoms whatsoever once they join the Military?

Thus, won't that harm the efforts of said military?

Thus, do they hate America, considering not only that they're hampering its military in a practical, tangible way, but also that they stand against the freedoms America stands FOR?

If they believe in equality, will they get mad if some, say, islamic country forbids the use of the cross, again, in a very un-islamic fashion?

Since they claim America for Christ, what differentiates them from the persecuting English that the future Americans founded America when fleeing FROM?

And finally...

THUS, IS THERE ANY DIFFERENCE AT ALL BETWEEN THE IDIOTS THAT ARE ATTEMPTING TO FORBID THIS AND THE, BY THE ORDER, CHRIST-HATING (at that time) ROMANS, AMERICA-HATING TALIBAN, AND RELIGIOUS-FREEDOM-HATING (at that time) ENGLISH? IS THERE??? RIDDLE ME THIS!

Ladies and gentlemen, Eddie Nygma!

Could you refrain from, like, shouting?

King Arthur started the habit of using letters of no larger than size 10 on fora.
He'll come again!

Could you refrain from, like, shouting?

King Arthur started the habit of using letters of no larger than size 10 on fora.
He'll come again!

Sorry, but I need that final "oomph" for the Riddler style. :p

But I'll not do it anymore, so it's all fine. :)

Edit: There, fixed.

Sorry, but I need that final "oomph" for the Riddler style. :p

But I'll not do it anymore, so it's all fine. :)

Alright! :fluffle:

Suppose the man had been a nazi. Or a KKK member. Or a follower of the Westboro Baptist Church.
Should he be allowed to get his swastika, black man on a noose or "God hates Fags" sign on his grave ? Or should he never have been allowed to join the military ?
The US military filters out Nazis and Communists and other troublemakers from ever joining its ranks. I hope that Klansmen and Phelpsmen get the same treatment.

OF COURSE THEY SHOULD ALLOW THE WICCAN SYMBOL (or ONE of the several, what does he want, the moons, the pentagram or?) IN HIS GRAVE! OF FRIGGIN' COURSE! IF THE US DOESN'T ALLOW THIS, IT'LL SIGNAL THE TRANSFORMATION, BY COMMANDER-IN-CHIMP, OF THE US IN A PRE-9-11 AFGHANISTAN-STYLE THEOCRACY!
Remember, it's not as if the law only allows Christian symbols. They have a list of 30 religions, and Wicca isn't on it. IMO there should be no list. Let them get want they want on their stones.

ROFL ... no ...

Pastafiarianism ...

http://www.venganza.org/

Enjoy!
Heh! I always thought it was "Rastafarianism." Silly me. 63 today, btw. :)

Athiest symbol looks like shit IMO.

Anyhow, wtf hampering freedom of speach / expression / religion :-\
I have never been convinced that America is the "land of the free" as it is so claimed, and things like this just reinforce the image that it isn't.

Sometimes I really do feel sorry for you Americans. It's almost like your own government doesn't give a damn about you if you don't smile and nod at everything they say :ugh:

Remember, it's not as if the law only allows Christian symbols. They have a list of 30 religions, and Wicca isn't on it. IMO there should be no list.

That fails to make it any less utterly absurd.

IMO there should be no list. Let them get want they want on their stones.

Seconded.

Heh! I always thought it was "Rastafarianism." Silly me. 63 today, btw. :)


Happy birthday, you cantankerous old fart! :D

Heh! I always thought it was "Rastafarianism." Silly me. 63 today, btw. :)
yo! happy birthday!

Happy birthday, you cantankerous old fart! :D
LMAO! Yes, I am now, but I had to work really, really hard for years and years before I became one! :D

yo! happy birthday!
Thanks, yo? :D

I´m a "veteran" of 24 years Military service. I´ve been through two small scale wars and countless humanitarian and police actions across several continents, and I can honestly say that the Religion of the guy next to me was the last thing on my mind.

If a Soldier dies, it is a sign of considerable disrespect NOT to display the symbol of his or her religion when the family requests it.

I´m not American, so I may be mistaken, but doesn´t the American constitution gaurantee freedom of religion?. Doesn´t the refusal of the state in question to display a symbol of the dead soldiers religion denote a failure to abide by both the spirit and word of the law?

Freedom of Religion either means ALL religions or none at all. The Soldier died for his country, why kick his family into the bargain? It´s petty and sickening to be honest.

Heh! I always thought it was "Rastafarianism." Silly me. 63 today, btw. :)

Happy birthday :fluffle:

Damn right, Eutrusca! Also, happy birthday.:D

Down with the religion-list dealio!:mad:

Happy birthday :fluffle:
Thanks! :)

Damn right, Eutrusca! Also, happy birthday.:D

Down with the religion-list dealio!:mad:
I agree. If it's ok for the public to pay for headstone for one solder, it's ok for us to pay for headstone for all of them.

Thanks for the brithday wishes. :)

I'm a Christian, spiritual in my own way, I have no objection to the member of another religion having the symbol of their faith on their final resting place. He died for his counrty, nobody should have to, but he did. The army didn't have any objection to a Wiccan enlisting.

Happy B'day Eut! and your right, the guy should be allowed whatever he wants on his gravestone (though a penis I'm not sure would go down too well). As a wiccan I'm even more sure he should have the symbol on his gravestone, heck, some of the religions on the symbol link I've never even heard of.

I´m not American, so I may be mistaken, but doesn´t the American constitution gaurantee freedom of religion?. Doesn´t the refusal of the state in question to display a symbol of the dead soldiers religion denote a failure to abide by both the spirit and word of the law?

Yes. The VA won't win. The soldier will get that wiccan symbol on his tombstone. I don't doubt that for a moment. What frustrates me, and probably his friends and family is that there has to be a fight over this.

This wiccan symbol of faith on his tombstone should have been a non-issue. There never should have been a need for a legal battle. *sigh*