NationStates Jolt Archive

We routinely hear about how great Socialism/Communism is and how it will liberate people and how great egalitarianism is and how everyone will pitch in to the common endeavour and it will all be fluffy bunnies.

Now, as you can probably tell from the tone of my writing, I'm ... somewhat sceptical.

So here's my challenge. And if you succeed, I for one, will convert to Socialism on the spot.

THE CHALLENGE

Prove human nature is suited to collectivist / socialist living by ..

(a) declaring yourself a socialist
(b) taking an inventory of everything you have
(c) work out exactly how much you need (based on the second half of the statement "from each according to ability, to each according to need"
(d) give away all your non-needed property to charity
(e) sign a deed giving away all your non-needed future income to charity in perpetuity
(f) go and live in a communal society with other socialists/communists

Socialists are always saying how great Socialism is. Prove it. In a liberal capitalist society you can set yourself up in a socialist collective. There's nothing stopping you. And, if it's as great as you say, then surely everyone will convert to Socialism. Go on, really, do it. Instead of talking 'blah blah blah' lead by example.

I, for one, will be fascinated by process and the outcome.

Being a lone socialist in a capiltalist society will achieve nothing.

Not to mention your apparent confusion of the terms "socialist" and "communist", and your simultaneous use of them.

To sum up; your post is shit.

Prove human nature is suited to collectivist / socialist living by ..

(a) declaring yourself a socialist
(b) taking an inventory of everything you have
(c) work out exactly how much you need (based on the second half of the statement "from each according to ability, to each according to need"
(d) give away all your non-needed property to charity
(e) sign a deed giving away all your non-needed future income to charity in perpetuity
(f) go and live in a communal society with other socialists/communists

Socialists are always saying how great Socialism is. Prove it. In a liberal capitalist society you can set yourself up in a socialist collective. There's nothing stopping you. And, if it's as great as you say, then surely everyone will convert to Socialism. Go on, really, do it. Instead of talking 'blah blah blah' lead by example.

I, for one, will be fascinated by process and the outcome.Well, Nadkor said what I could say, but I will point out other problems with this post:

1) Need (in that statement) is not the same as the necessities of living.
2) Why would I give away my non-needed property now when I can potentially use it as an investment and be able to bring more property to the collective? (Using capitalism to undermine capitalism.)
3) Are you suggesting that capitalist governments will let us secede?

Is your computer blocked from searching the word "Sweden"?

Or "Communes" and "Co-ops"?

We routinely hear about how great Socialism/Communism is and how it will liberate people and how great egalitarianism is and how everyone will pitch in to the common endeavour and it will all be fluffy bunnies.

Now, as you can probably tell from the tone of my writing, I'm ... somewhat sceptical.

So here's my challenge. And if you succeed, I for one, will convert to Socialism on the spot.

THE CHALLENGE

Prove human nature is suited to collectivist / socialist living by ..

(a) declaring yourself a socialist
(b) taking an inventory of everything you have
(c) work out exactly how much you need (based on the second half of the statement "from each according to ability, to each according to need"
(d) give away all your non-needed property to charity
(e) sign a deed giving away all your non-needed future income to charity in perpetuity
(f) go and live in a communal society with other socialists/communists

Socialists are always saying how great Socialism is. Prove it. In a liberal capitalist society you can set yourself up in a socialist collective. There's nothing stopping you. And, if it's as great as you say, then surely everyone will convert to Socialism. Go on, really, do it. Instead of talking 'blah blah blah' lead by example.

I, for one, will be fascinated by process and the outcome.

hell, i would do all of that, if i could im only 16 :rolleyes:

Communism cannot be achieved by isolated action. Communism is achieved by the workers taking state power, then setting up a society that is beneficial to class interests. Any individual action in setting up communism is therefore anathema to the ideology, which states that collective action is necessary to set up a collective society.

I explain this every day. Know what you're talking about before you post something as stupid as this. Perhaps read Marx, Fourier, Proudhon, so you'll actually be familiar with various forms of Socialism before challenging it.

You want someone to be a martyr, but martyrs never see victory.

Altruism must be mutual to work, so you offered up a challenge that is impossible. Way to go, Dr. Hovind.

I'll prove it by telling you to look at my NationState!
Oooohhh yeah. Solid proof there.
Left leaning as far as you can go, and NO CRIME! Not a policeman on the street, and everyone's happy. They have no money, and no cares. Best educated people around, and it's all free.
In your FACE reality! It can work in theory! :)

Communism cannot be achieved by isolated action. Communism is achieved by the workers taking state power, then setting up a society that is beneficial to class interests. Any individual action in setting up communism is therefore anathema to the ideology, which states that collective action is necessary to set up a collective society.

I explain this every day. Know what you're talking about before you post something as stupid as this. Perhaps read Marx, Fourier, Proudhon, so you'll actually be familiar with various forms of Socialism before challenging it.

Communism occurs when some crazy whips the crowd up about some perceived injustice and tears down the government only to form one that is even more authoritarian and dictatorial.

Communism sucks, and socialism too. Too much government.

Communism occurs when some crazy whips the crowd up about some perceived injustice and tears down the government only to form one that is even more authoritarian and dictatorial.

All this post manages to do is show your ignorance of what communism actually is, and shows you've paid no attention beyond the authoritarian regimes that have set themselves up and called themselves communist, despite ignoring most of its basic tenets.

Communism sucks, and socialism too. Too much government.
Yes, because making sure people are looked after (which is basically what socialism is) is a bad thing.

Communism is not socialism. These ideas sometimes get confused.

Communism is a branch of the wider Socialist movement, they are not mutually exclusive.

WHY GOD WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When are people going to learn that there needs to be balance?

*Sigh* well I guess once China becomes the world super power we'll learn about the "evils of capitalism"

Any who I'll do that if you go out and buy a human being... (Extremism doesn’t work kids, it just doesn’t)

to all those people who abused me on the grounds that I haven't read Marx et al and don't know the difference between communism / socialism etc.

You're quite simply wrong. I have read and do know. That's why I think Socialism and Communism are complete bollocks :D

And, er by the way, Sweden is not and never has been a Socialist country.

Being a lone socialist in a capiltalist society will achieve nothing.

Not to mention your apparent confusion of the terms "socialist" and "communist", and your simultaneous use of them.

To sum up; your post is shit.

Yep. And to add to that, there is no such thing as pure capitalism.
In every capitalism, there are socialist elements. Socialism acts as a buffer against the danger of capitalism.

One more thing. Economics is a philosophy too. If you make a dogma out of "capitalism" or "socialism": you're no better than a blindly believing Christian or Scientologist.

And, er by the way, Sweden is not and never has been a Socialist country.

Once again, there is no such thing as a purely capitalist society. That's why European counties are sometimes called "socialist democracies." Even in the U.S., there are facets of socialism, without which, are entire system would collapse.

Being a lone socialist in a capiltalist society will achieve nothing.

SNIP

In other words, you have an ideology that only works if everyone is willing to play by your rules.

In other words, then, your ideology is drivel.

I think practical socialism has a slight change of order in your challenge; they'd stick point (f) at the very start which then allows them to do the rest for a specific group that they know will then provide them with support in return.

The difference between Socialism and Communism is that Socialism is about local redistribution of wealth. Socialists do not need to give one's posessions to people they do not know; they only need to give them out to the group of people they do know. It's about the smaller scale rather than the wider scale of Communism.

When will people give up and admit that socialism/communism/Marxism/anarcho-syndicalism and all those other deranged utopias CANNOT WORK??? To make them function would require exterminating greed from humankind,and that will take several hundred thousand years of evolution to do (evolution, mind you ,that is would have to be in the context of and already-socialist state).

You can't eliminate class. It is an inherent aspect of social behavior. When people admit that everyone else is just as good as they are, we won't need any fancy-schmancy political theories.

Communism is never going to happen. It was doomed from the start. I hate to say it, but I'm actually glad that the big rich guys have so much power-- they'll keep the damn crazy commies out of power:mp5: :D

If you make a dogma out of "capitalism" or "socialism": you're no better than a blindly believing Christian or Scientologist.
Agreed.

Prove human nature is suited to collectivist / socialist living by ..

(a) declaring yourself a socialist
(b) taking an inventory of everything you have
(c) work out exactly how much you need (based on the second half of the statement "from each according to ability, to each according to need"
(d) give away all your non-needed property to charity
(e) sign a deed giving away all your non-needed future income to charity in perpetuity
(f) go and live in a communal society with other socialists/communists

Socialists are always saying how great Socialism is. Prove it. In a liberal capitalist society you can set yourself up in a socialist collective. There's nothing stopping you. And, if it's as great as you say, then surely everyone will convert to Socialism. Go on, really, do it. Instead of talking 'blah blah blah' lead by example.

I, for one, will be fascinated by process and the outcome.

I earn slightly over $100 a week. I think i'm entitled to anything that I don't physically require to survive out of that money. (yes, fortunately, I live with my parents, otherwise I probably wouldn't even be able to do that effectively.)

If that's being hypocritical, so shoot me.

When I have spare money, sure thing, i'll donate to charity. Although the commune idea sounds great. I'll just need to scrounge up a couple of hundred thousand dollars for the land. There's nothing stopping me, of course. ;)

THE CHALLENGE

Prove human nature is suited to collectivist / socialist living by ..

(a) declaring yourself a socialist
(b) taking an inventory of everything you have
(c) work out exactly how much you need (based on the second half of the statement "from each according to ability, to each according to need"
(d) give away all your non-needed property to charity
(e) sign a deed giving away all your non-needed future income to charity in perpetuity
(f) go and live in a communal society with other socialists/communists


I want to introduce to you the l33tness that is monastic life
basically it almost includes all of your requirements (perhaps with the sole exception that you don't have to declare yourself as a socialist), most of them in a stricter form and it works

I, for one, will be fascinated by process and the outcome.


Instead of blowing smoke out of your ass, why don't you take the time to educate yourself? Have you ever heard of the Ruskin cooperative of Tennessee and Georgia? How about the Contra Costa, California Commune experiment of the 1890s? Its been done to death, and in America, It does not work.

This article sums it up quite nicely.
http://www.cocohistory.com/essays-paradise.html

Communism is never going to happen. It was doomed from the start. I hate to say it, but I'm actually glad that the big rich guys have so much power-- they'll keep the damn crazy commies out of power:mp5: :D

Trading one evil for another is not exactly an ideal situation either. The reason Communism does not work is for the very reasons you cited, but its much more than that. Communism is too open to corruption from the top down. Of course corruption and greed are present in Capitalism as well, but when you have a democratic system of checks and balances, it is much more difficult to become entrenched. While Socialism is a beautiful ideology, it just cannot work in its pure form due to human nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag%C3%B3n_Cooperative_Corporation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutzim

Two more examples, just because people seem to love throwing them around right now...:p

We routinely hear about how great Socialism/Communism is and how it will liberate people and how great egalitarianism is and how everyone will pitch in to the common endeavour and it will all be fluffy bunnies. Really? I thought we routinely heard how corporate greed is the problem to all our.. Eh.. I mean; solution to all our problems, and how forcing everyone to live under corporate hegemony is a brilliantly great thing, that really doesn't indirectly kills more people than anything else we've ever done.Now, as you can probably tell from the tone of my writing, I'm ... somewhat sceptical.Nah, you're just a over-propagandised Yank.So here's my challenge. And if you succeed, I for one, will convert to Socialism on the spot.Fortunately for you, your criteria is so loosely defined that you'll be able to avoid that consequence regardless of what anyone answers.THE CHALLENGE

Prove human nature is suited to collectivist / socialist living by ..

(a) declaring yourself a socialistOK. I'm henceforth a socialist.(b) taking an inventory of everything you haveConsider it done.(c) work out exactly how much you need (based on the second half of the statement "from each according to ability, to each according to need"Seeing as I live in a socialist society, all I need is minimum wage. I earn about twice that, but I very rarely work for more than half a year at a time, so in reality I need neither more nor less than I have - which is why I live like I do.(d) give away all your non-needed property to charityUnless we're talking about thinks like spare toothbrushes & art, I have no such things.(e) sign a deed giving away all your non-needed future income to charity in perpetuityNot only do I do this by earning my living in this country (where an appropriate amount is subtracted from my paycheck automatically), I also donate to several organisations on a monthly basis. My income, however, is not fixed.(f) go and live in a communal society with other socialists/communistsI already do.Socialists are always saying how great Socialism is. Prove it. In a liberal capitalist society you can set yourself up in a socialist collective. There's nothing stopping you. And, if it's as great as you say, then surely everyone will convert to Socialism. Go on, really, do it. Instead of talking 'blah blah blah' lead by example. I've lived in a lot of countries over the years, and though the current government here sucks shit (they're liberals - as in liberals, not some US mutation), one of the reasons I've settled here, is because it's a socialist country. Doesn't mean socialists are better than anyone else, but it does mean this country works a hell of a lot better then the one you live in.
Amusingly, in a recent poll, 54% of the liberals here wanted a tax increase to buy more welfare. Even rightwingers knows it works when they've seen it in action.I, for one, will be fascinated by process and the outcome.Maybe it would be a better idea if you went to live in a socialist country for a year. After all, I already know how it works.
- I'll end this little post quoting the lyrics of a song called Propaganda, by UK Oi! Band The Blitz.Defending this corruption on which you are sat
You tell me what to think, you tell me this and that
`Freedom is O.K. you scum` but make sure it`s never used
In your defence of liberty I always stand accused

And your shadow in the sun always give a shock
While the hate mail rises like some kind of moral rock
Propaganda, you scare me to death

I know you want to lock me up and see justice done
You say get the army in, you hope that day will come
You will give me something to think about Right between my eyes
Then you`ll see your freedom the day that freedom dies

I can`t see many reds underneath my bed
But the fascists in the letter-box are messing up my head
You tell me I`ve got rights, the same for rich and poor
But you`re behind the police when they`re knocking down my door

I have an impression that pro-communists always speak about ideal communism and that communist totalitarian states weren't communist at all, but when it comes to capitalism they never mention the ideal one, but the one including greedy corporations etc.

And as for me, saying that "communism is good but Stalin screwed it up" is like saying that "nazism is good but Hitler screwed it up".

And as for me, saying that "communism is good but Stalin screwed it up" is like saying that "nazism is good but Hitler screwed it up".
Now, I'm no commie (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=484579), but that's a bit harsh. What would you call the Kibbutzim then?

I have an impression that pro-communists always speak about ideal communism and that communist totalitarian states weren't communist at all, but when it comes to capitalism they never mention the ideal one, but the one including greedy corporations etc.

And as for me, saying that "communism is good but Stalin screwed it up" is like saying that "nazism is good but Hitler screwed it up".Riight..
Anyway, how does "ideal capitalism" work, if it doesn't include never-ending consolitation?

The way I see it, planned economy & laissez faire capitalims are basically the same thing. The only real difference seems to be that commies claim they're controlling the economy for the good of everyone, while the consolidated private sectors claims they're controlling the economy for the good of everyone...

Ok, so I can't see any difference. Sue me.

God I hate commies. They're so fucking STUBBORN. Listen, we tried communism. For 80 fucking years. IT DIDN'T WORK.

Communism cannot be achieved by isolated action. Communism is achieved by the workers taking state power, then setting up a society that is beneficial to class interests.

- why are the working class so special?

- why are the working class so special?


Because there are more of us, becuase we do most of the work that keeps things running.

Because there are more of us, becuase we do most of the work that keeps things running.
The first part of the sentence is certainly true (even though in modern times, 'the worker' has been dying out in favour of an entirely different animal), but the second isn't.

It is absolutely impossible to deny that managers, property owners, banks and so on are absolutely vital for making things run. And that is not even mentioning the entrepreneurs (the real heroes and kings of capitalism) who get things started in the first place.

The idea that the workers keep the system running only works if you completely ignore all work done with one's head, and reduce people to brainless collections of muscles.

The first part of the sentence is certainly true (even though in modern times, 'the worker' has been dying out in favour of an entirely different animal), but the second isn't.

It is absolutely impossible to deny that managers, property owners, banks and so on are absolutely vital for making things run. And that is not even mentioning the entrepreneurs (the real heroes and kings of capitalism) who get things started in the first place.

The idea that the workers keep the system running only works if you completely ignore all work done with one's head, and reduce people to brainless collections of muscles.


Granted but managers manage workers who do the work. For every manager, how many workers work under him/her?

When I say work that makes things run, I mean cleaning the streets, portering in hospitals, waiting on managers lunches, bus and train drivers, sparks, chippies, builders, pumers, gas fitters, and the ilke.

Communism sucks, and socialism too. Too much government.
Ever heard of anarcho-communism?

When I say work that makes things run, I mean cleaning the streets, portering in hospitals, waiting on managers lunches, bus and train drivers, sparks, chippies, builders, pumers, gas fitters, and the ilke.
Of course they do valuable work, otherwise they wouldn't get paid for it. But if you only measure every single person's contribution to the whole thing plowing along, then the managers etc probably do more. And that is what counts, because people are individuals and not collectives.

Granted but managers manage workers who do the work. For every manager, how many workers work under him/her?

When I say work that makes things run, I mean cleaning the streets, portering in hospitals, waiting on managers lunches, bus and train drivers, sparks, chippies, builders, pumers, gas fitters, and the ilke.What came first; hen or egg?

Basically, it's a symbiosis. Neither can do shit without the other.

Now, I'm no commie (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=484579), but that's a bit harsh. What would you call the Kibbutzim then?

Er... I don't understand what is the connection between these words and the quote You'd included....
About Kibbutzim: I believe that ideal Communism works on the level where it's too little to call it Communism. I wouldn't call a tribe of Amazonian Indians "Communist". :) For the moment we're unready for a Communist society on a state level.

As for Similization: : well, pro-Communists speak much about greedy oppressing corporations, but not about capitalist theoretists. If we're assuming that historical examples of Communism weren't at all communist, why not assume that dirty methods of the corpo's are far from capitalism:)

Of course they do valuable work, otherwise they wouldn't get paid for it. But if you only measure every single person's contribution to the whole thing plowing along, then the managers etc probably do more. And that is what counts, because people are individuals and not collectives.

Okay but that is not what you asked, you asked why are the working class so speacial, it is because the working class do the shit jobs that the upperclass know nowt about and the middle clas wouldn't do. So whilst we can talk about individuals if you like, you asked about a class, not a group of individuals.

We are special because we do the work that is nesicary for the country to move.

Er... I don't understand what is the connection between these words and the quote You'd included....
About Kibbutzim: I believe that ideal Communism works on the level where it's too little to call it Communism. I wouldn't call a tribe of Amazonian Indians "Communist". :) For the moment we're unready for a Communist society on a state level.

So why do you, an anti-communist, get to dictate how large a society should be for it to be communist?

So whilst we can talk about individuals if you like, you asked about a class, not a group of individuals.
I suppose it's a misunderstanding then. I consider "class" to be an empty construct, the only meaning being that it can serve as a useful shorthand for describing people in certain income positions.

We are special because we do the work that is nesicary for the country to move.
Until the robots move in...

What came first; hen or egg?

Basically, it's a symbiosis. Neither can do shit without the other.

Granted, but you asked and I answered. And I guess since the middle classes are working classes made good, and there are more of us then both middle and upper classes, we could concivably revolt, do away with all upper and middle classes and remold the world in our image huh!? Then in that situatiuon I guess we could do much shit without both the upper and middle classes.

Granted, but you asked and I answered. And I guess since the middle classes are working classes made good, and there are more of us then both middle and upper classes, we could concivably revolt, do away with all upper and middle classes and remold the world in our image huh!? Then in that situatiuon I guess we could do much shit without both the upper and middle classes.Versalia asked. I didn't.
Incidentially, I was speaking from the perspective of a capitalist economy, as that is what we pt. have. You may wish to cast a glance at my signature, before you draw any further conclusions about my convictions.

So here's my challenge. And if you succeed, I for one, will convert to Socialism on the spot.
<snip>

Well.. I actually do give alot away, but must admit I keep somewhat more than I truly need to survive.
Then again, I estimate that if everyone here converted to such a system I could keep about 10 times as much as I do now anyway. That is excluding the third world though...

(d) give away all your non-needed property to charity
Socialism is not mandated charity. Socialism is not politicised altruism.

When will people give up and admit that socialism/communism/Marxism/anarcho-syndicalism and all those other deranged utopias CANNOT WORK??? To make them function would require exterminating greed from humankind,and that will take several hundred thousand years of evolution to do (evolution, mind you ,that is would have to be in the context of and already-socialist state).
Untrue. Anarchosyndicalism, for instance, has worked well in several occasions, in Ukraine 1919-20, Catalonia during the SCW and Mexico in areas controlled by Zapatistas in the 19th century. All that it needs is the conscience of the people to be stronger than their greed. And that is perfectly possible, proven by the mentioned examples.

You can't eliminate class. It is an inherent aspect of social behavior. When people admit that everyone else is just as good as they are, we won't need any fancy-schmancy political theories.
Like capitalism, the theory stating that by giving the whole bread to the few, granules will eventually find their way to the mouths of the masses. If the idea of equality is completely adopted by the people, anarchosyndicalism, liberal socialism and Third Wave-communism will have even better chances of succeeding.

Communism is never going to happen. It was doomed from the start. I hate to say it, but I'm actually glad that the big rich guys have so much power-- they'll keep the damn crazy commies out of power:mp5: :D
Right. Hopely you'll be as glad when the firm you have worked for moves its production to China, not because it wasn't making profit but because some people who haven't worked for a day in their lives wanted to get even more profit.

We routinely hear about how great Socialism/Communism is and how it will liberate people and how great egalitarianism is and how everyone will pitch in to the common endeavour and it will all be fluffy bunnies.

Now, as you can probably tell from the tone of my writing, I'm ... somewhat sceptical.

So here's my challenge. And if you succeed, I for one, will convert to Socialism on the spot.

THE CHALLENGE

Prove human nature is suited to collectivist / socialist living by ..

(a) declaring yourself a socialist
(b) taking an inventory of everything you have
(c) work out exactly how much you need (based on the second half of the statement "from each according to ability, to each according to need"
(d) give away all your non-needed property to charity
(e) sign a deed giving away all your non-needed future income to charity in perpetuity
(f) go and live in a communal society with other socialists/communists

Socialists are always saying how great Socialism is. Prove it. In a liberal capitalist society you can set yourself up in a socialist collective. There's nothing stopping you. And, if it's as great as you say, then surely everyone will convert to Socialism. Go on, really, do it. Instead of talking 'blah blah blah' lead by example.

I, for one, will be fascinated by process and the outcome.
Firstly, (f). THERE ARE FEW IF NONE COMMUNAL SOCIETIES OF ANY KIND IN THE WORLD!

(d and e) We live in a capitalist country. Doing so would kill ourselves. Until we can make it to where we CAN give away our belongings, we, unfortuanetly, have to live at least somewhat like capitalists.