NationStates Jolt Archive

COMMENTARY: Now it seems that many Mexicans are warming to the idea of a wall to keep illegal immigrants out of the US. There are a variety of reaons for doing so, and I find the entire thing fascinating.

Your thoughts?


Some in Mexico See Border Wall as Opportunity (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/25/world/americas/25mexico.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin)


By GINGER THOMPSON
Published: May 25, 2006
SEATTLE, May 24 — To build, or not to build, a border of walls? The debate in the United States has started some Mexicans thinking it is not such a bad idea.

Nationalist outrage and accusations of hypocrisy over the prospect have filled airwaves and front pages in Mexico, as expected, fueled by presidential campaigns in which appeals to national pride are in no short supply. But, surprisingly, another view is gaining traction: that good fences can make good neighbors.

The clamorous debate over a border wall has confronted President Vicente Fox of Mexico at every stop during a visit to the United States that began Tuesday. While he did not publicly endorse the idea, he made clear that his government was prepared to live with increased border security as long as it comes with measures that opened legal channels for the migration of Mexican workers.

Outside his government, several immigration experts have even begun floating the idea that real walls, not the porous ones that stand today, could be more an opportunity than an attack.

A wall could dissuade illegal immigrants from their perilous journeys across the Sonora Desert and force societies on both sides to confront their dependence on an industry characterized by exploitation, they say.

The old blame game — in which Mexico attributed illegal migration to the voracious American demand for labor and accused lawmakers of xenophobia — has given way to a far more soul-searching discussion, at least in quarters where policies are made and influenced, about how little Mexico has done to try to keep its people home.

"For too long, Mexico has boasted about immigrants leaving, calling them national heroes, instead of describing them as actors in a national tragedy," said Jorge Santibáñez, president of the College of the Northern Border. "And it has boasted about the growth in remittances" — the money immigrants send home — "as an indicator of success, when it is really an indicator of failure."

Indeed, Mr. Fox — who five years ago challenged the United States to follow Europe's example and open the borders and then barely protested when President Bush announced plans to deploy troops — personifies Mexico's evolving, often contradictory attitudes on illegal immigration.

Gabriel Guerra, a political analyst, said the presidential election in July and the negotiations over immigration reform in Washington have put Mr. Fox on unsteady political terrain.

Toning down his country's opposition to a wall might be the best way for Mr. Fox to convince conservatives in Congress to adopt reforms to legalize the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants living in the United States and expand guest worker programs.

On the other hand, bowing to what critics have described as a "militarization of the border," without winning legalization programs, could open Mr. Fox to criticism that he surrenders to the will of the United States. It could also hurt the aspirations of Felipe Calderón, the candidate Mr. Fox supports to succeed him in the July 2 election.

"This is a very risky trip," Mr. Guerra said. "If he comes out too strong, he will rattle the conservatives up there. And if he is not strong enough, he will be clobbered by his opponents here."

"Whatever the discourse, it's going to be hard to get it right," Mr. Guerra said. "I think we might be better served by quiet diplomacy."

Deputy Foreign Relations Minister Gerónimo Gutiérrez acknowledged the challenge facing the president. "We are in the middle of a Ping-Pong of reactions that reflect valid concerns on both sides of the border, as well as an unusually complex moment in the bilateral relationship," he said.

Mr. Fox stepped into the middle of the game on Tuesday, beginning a sweep through Utah, Washington and California, states that have become important trading partners to Mexico and that have experienced both the pains and benefits of illegal immigration.

In Utah, where officials estimate that the illegal immigrant population has tripled since 1990, to 90,000, smatterings of protesters followed Mr. Fox's visit to Salt Lake City. "Take care of your own people, so they don't have to come here," some shouted.

Wary of inflaming the passions of American conservatives as the United States Senate winds down debate over immigration reform, Mr. Fox did not respond directly to the attacks. But he did have his say.

[ This article is two pages long. Read the rest of the article here (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/25/world/americas/25mexico.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&th&emc=th). ]

Your thoughts?

Ping-pong is fun.

Walls aren't going to help. They can be tunneled under, gone around, and so on. Not to mention building a wall that big would be a very big, very expensive undertaking.

No, I agree that what needs to be done is immigration reform coupled with reforms not just in Mexico, but Central and South America (as much as everyone says it's Mexicans, and they do make the majority, there's more than just them coming through). Make it easier to get into the US, not as expensive or as long. Provide more investment within those countries to make it more worthwile to stay at home than to run for the border*. Building a wall won't stop the rush unless we start shooting.

*Since I haven't been home since this current fiasco started, has Taco Bell changed it's Run for the Border slogan? I'd think that it would be in bad taste right now.

Provide more investment within those countries to make it more worthwile to stay at home than to run for the border*.
Words of wisdom.

Words of wisdom.
Still need to open up immigration more though. The current system is insane, even from someone coming from a devloped, 1st world, closely alied, nation.

People should just realise segregation isn't the answer. They should think why the mexicans are illegally border hopping and try and fix that instead of a wasting resources a stupid wall which is probably not going to do much.

Still need to open up immigration more though. The current system is insane, even from someone coming from a devloped, 1st world, closely alied, nation.
I'm not sure how the US system works exactly, though from what I hear it could do with reform. Your proposal on investing in third world countries so as to alter immigration patterns is something I have long believed as a solution to current immigration problems. A sort of enlightened self-interest action; the nation helps others whilst helping itself.

that good fences can make good neighbors.

...

Your thoughts?



I think that someone is a Robert Frost fan, but misses the irony in the statement.

I'm not sure how the US system works exactly, though from what I hear it could do with reform. Your proposal on investing in third world countries so as to alter immigration patterns is something I have long believed as a solution to current immigration problems. A sort of enlightened self-interest action; the nation helps others whilst helping itself.
It would help, yes, as most people have immigrated to the US, historically speaking, for economic opertunities. Shut off or reduce that, and the flood drops to a trickle.

And yes, the system does need reform. I'm looking at it right now as my fiancee is Japanese and it's going to take years and a lot of money to get her US residency, during which time she could be deported for no reason and no appeal. It's nuts.

It would help, yes, as most people have immigrated to the US, historically speaking, for economic opertunities. Shut off or reduce that, and the flood drops to a trickle.
I don't understand why most governments cannot see this. Sure, it may cost them a bit to get investment in these countries off the ground, but it would be a lot less expensive and far more efficient in the long run than wasting cash on schemes like this wall.

And yes, the system does need reform. I'm looking at it right now as my fiancee is Japanese and it's going to take years and a lot of money to get her US residency, during which time she could be deported for no reason and no appeal. It's nuts.
Sorry to hear. Things like that deter more qualified immigrants, which is a shame.

Walls aren't going to help. They can be tunneled under, gone around, and so on. Not to mention building a wall that big would be a very big, very expensive undertaking.

No, I agree that what needs to be done is immigration reform coupled with reforms not just in Mexico, but Central and South America (as much as everyone says it's Mexicans, and they do make the majority, there's more than just them coming through). Make it easier to get into the US, not as expensive or as long. Provide more investment within those countries to make it more worthwile to stay at home than to run for the border*. Building a wall won't stop the rush unless we start shooting.

*Since I haven't been home since this current fiasco started, has Taco Bell changed it's Run for the Border slogan? I'd think that it would be in bad taste right now.agreed, make it easier to migrate legally to the US. however, first we must stop the Illegal crossings. amnesty only says, "Keep trying, if you're here when it's offered you win the lottery"

a fence, supported by both sides however, can force people to rethink their problems as well as finding solutions to those problems.

and Taco Bell hasn't used "run for the border" for a couple of years that I know of. their slogan is now "Think outside the Bun."

Walls aren't going to help. They can be tunneled under, gone around, and so on. Not to mention building a wall that big would be a very big, very expensive undertaking.



Of course a wall will help.

No one thinks the Mexicans are going to just turn around.

But It will slow down migrants until the border patrol shows up.

Building a wall would be a lot cheaper than what we're doing now.

It's not my job to reform South and Central America.

agreed, make it easier to migrate legally to the US. however, first we must stop the Illegal crossings. amnesty only says, "Keep trying, if you're here when it's offered you win the lottery"

a fence, supported by both sides however, can force people to rethink their problems as well as finding solutions to those problems.
The problem being though is that fences are easy to get around. You can go under them, you can go over them, and since no one has ever been able to make one float, you can go around them. If the jobs and the money are still being offered, and it is still almost impossible to leagally immigrate, no matter what we put up, they'll still find a way across.

The only walls that have, historically, worked are armed ones where they shoot at people, and even then...

No, walls are useless unless we reform first, THEN well placed walls can actually do their jobs by disuading casual people from trying. It would also make it more likely the those who are trying to sneak in are the bad guys and not someone who wants to come and mow the lawn on the cheap.

and Taco Bell hasn't used "run for the border" for a couple of years that I know of. their slogan is now "Think outside the Bun."
Hmm, could have sworn I saw signs saying "The Border is open late" or something like that during Christmas when I was last at home, but I could be wrong.

Of course a wall will help.

No one thinks the Mexicans are going to just turn around.

But It will slow down migrants until the border patrol shows up.

Building a wall would be a lot cheaper than what we're doing now.

It's not my job to reform South and Central America.
Ah yes, that's why we keep disovering tunnels, and I'm sure NO ONE ever thinks of boats on the coastline. We'd have to have 24 hour guards, and a lot of them, to get it to stop. And along that huge border...

Well, it ain't going to come cheap, it's probably be cheaper to encourage US companies to invest in those other coutries.

The problem being though is that fences are easy to get around. You can go under them, you can go over them, and since no one has ever been able to make one float, you can go around them. If the jobs and the money are still being offered, and it is still almost impossible to leagally immigrate, no matter what we put up, they'll still find a way across.

The only walls that have, historically, worked are armed ones where they shoot at people, and even then...

No, walls are useless unless we reform first, THEN well placed walls can actually do their jobs by disuading casual people from trying. It would also make it more likely the those who are trying to sneak in are the bad guys and not someone who wants to come and mow the lawn on the cheap.actually walls do work if both sides make honest attempts to make them work.

that means both sides patrol for tunnelers, both sides keep vigalence and not one side turning a blind eye to anyone crossing (which is usually the case.)


Hmm, could have sworn I saw signs saying "The Border is open late" or something like that during Christmas when I was last at home, but I could be wrong.I remember that, but I think that was an old commercial being re-run. :confused:

actually walls do work if both sides make honest attempts to make them work.

that means both sides patrol for tunnelers, both sides keep vigalence and not one side turning a blind eye to anyone crossing (which is usually the case.)
Then we have to convince Mexico to run such patrols, and WE have to run such patrols, 24/7/365(366). You're talking about something close to the watch towers on the Great Wall of China (which also didn't work) along a border than runs how many tousands of miles?

And we want to do this for how long now? With what money and manpower?

I remember that, but I think that was an old commercial being re-run. :confused:
Oh well. I'll drop it because I am getting hungry for Taco Bell and the nearest one is 5,000 miles away. :p

Then we have to convince Mexico to run such patrols, and WE have to run such patrols, 24/7/365(366). You're talking about something close to the watch towers on the Great Wall of China (which also didn't work) along a border than runs how many tousands of miles?

And we want to do this for how long now? With what money and manpower?however, the alternative is what? reward those breaking the law?
"You crossed the border and managed to avoid Immigration Officals for 5 years now... you just won your very own CITIZENSHIP! CONGRATULATIONS!"

however, the alternative is what? reward those breaking the law?
"You crossed the border and managed to avoid Immigration Officals for 5 years now... you just won your very own CITIZENSHIP! CONGRATULATIONS!"
The alternative is to reform the laws to allow for greater immigration, and then give people a real reason to stay at home. Investment into Central and South America, improving the economies down there will do so. Make it much more attractive to immigrate legally, safely, and they'll start to do that. Make it not worth the effort to move, and they'll stay home.

Just putting up a bloody wall won't really stop them. They'll find another way, like those whose countries do not border ours. Hell, we get a lot of illegal Chinese in the US every year coming in from Canada, or over staying tourist visas or student visas. Cuba and Hati of course send boats up. So...

Besides, I would argue it's not the chance at citzenship that drives them, it's all economic. THAT'S where we need to build the walls.

Odly though, that part is almost never really addressed.

The alternative is to reform the laws to allow for greater immigration, and then give people a real reason to stay at home. Investment into Central and South America, improving the economies down there will do so. Make it much more attractive to immigrate legally, safely, and they'll start to do that. Make it not worth the effort to move, and they'll stay home.

Just putting up a bloody wall won't really stop them. They'll find another way, like those whose countries do not border ours. Hell, we get a lot of illegal Chinese in the US every year coming in from Canada, or over staying tourist visas or student visas. Cuba and Hati of course send boats up. So...

Besides, I would argue it's not the chance at citzenship that drives them, it's all economic. THAT'S where we need to build the walls.

Odly though, that part is almost never really addressed.It's hard. Granted reform is needed but do you really want to make it easier to come into the US?

granted you have those that want to honestly work and live here, but you also have those that will take advantage of open borders and actually end up costing more for the cleanup than preventative measures.

Ping-pong is fun.
Fool. Ping poing uses a net, not a (Berlin) wall (replica).

Granted reform is needed but do you really want to make it easier to come into the US?

yes

the open border with alabama has yet to destroy us, so it's all good.

Fool. Ping poing uses a net, not a (Berlin) wall (replica).
Doesn't make it any less fun.

yes

the open border with alabama has yet to destroy us, so it's all good.
even tho it makes it easier for another crime to be perpetuated. one even worse than Illegal Aliens. something that actually unites both Dem and Rep together?

even tho it makes it easier for another crime to be perpetuated. one even worse than Illegal Aliens. something that actually unites both Dem and Rep together?

wtf are you on about?

Everyone's already talked about every angle, but you know what the problem is?

Black people.

If they didn't quit their jobs 200 years ago, we wouldn't be having this debate. Now, it's not that I'm saying slavery is right, but surfdom? That was awesome.

Who would want to be a lord over people?

Also, don't hurt me.

Of course the Mexicans consider it an opportunity. Who is going to build the wall? Illegal aliens! And they'll build ways to get through it too. So, the US gets its wall, the government can say it's doing something, illegal aliens get jobs, and Mexicans get a faster way to get to the US. Everybody is happy!

No, seriously, the wall is not really that much of an issue amongst most Mexicans, who would actually prefer the Mexican government doing something to improve the economy of the country. Like Tony Garza, US Ambassador in Mexico, said: "sending immigrants to the US does not an economic strategy make".

granted you have those that want to honestly work and live here, but you also have those that will take advantage of open borders and actually end up costing more for the cleanup than preventative measures.
Easier != open.

Right now there's no way for a regular Mexican person, not even a professional, much less unskilled, to emigrate legally to the US without getting married to someone or being hired in Mexico by a US company (very, very few).

wtf are you on about?
human trafficking. In other words, slaves

2001 reports (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/03/08/women.trafficking/index.html)

Human trafficking Reports (http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/global_issues/human_trafficking/human_trafficking_archive.html)

May 2005 report (http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/48633.htm)

and more from Mexico into the US. (http://www.borderlandnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051219/NEWS/512190318/1001)

Frontline story about trafficking in the former Soviet Union (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/slaves/)

areas like Turkey, and the former Soviet Union have an almost open border with very little security there thousands of women are bought and sold and transported around the world.

opening the borders also allows these scum to continue and even expand their operations.

Easier != open.

Right now there's no way for a regular Mexican person, not even a professional, much less unskilled, to emigrate legally to the US without getting married to someone or being hired in Mexico by a US company (very, very few).yes there is a way, it's harder because of the illegals coming in. stem the illegals comging in and you'll find more mexican legals able to get in.

It's hard. Granted reform is needed but do you really want to make it easier to come into the US?

granted you have those that want to honestly work and live here, but you also have those that will take advantage of open borders and actually end up costing more for the cleanup than preventative measures.
The idea isn't open border, it's making it so that those who DO want to come here for jobs and and live a decent life can get here without having to wait around 5 years or so (the backlog at Homeland Security) after winning a very long shot lottery.

We do that, then we can assume that those attempting to sneak across are the bad guys. Right now those who are running drugs and slaves are hidden in the human tsunami coming across. If they get caught by Border Patrol (a small miracle there), they can quickly just fade into woodwork of border crossers looking for a job picking oranges, get deported back to a small border town, and try again. It's a needle in a haystack in other words.

Now, if we make it much easier to get into the US, a process that won't take years and a lot of money (It is quite a bit, I'm blanching at the cost and I'm American! For a Mexican farmer...), then most of that flood will try legal channels. We help make life better south of the border (Another restauant I miss) and they'll stay home, the flood becomes a trickle and the bad guys can be spotted more easily.

yes there is a way, it's harder because of the illegals coming in. stem the illegals comging in and you'll find more mexican legals able to get in.
Sorry, JuNii, you're wrong there. To get into the US (as unskilled labor, non-politcal reasons, no relatives in the US) you first must win a lottery system. Average wait time is 8 years. Average time to get US residency is 5 years once in the US, during which time you CAN be deported for no reason with no appeal should your application be denied for any reason. Average cost for all of this is well over $1,000.

Now where the hell does a dirt poor Mexican farmer making less than $2 an hour get $1,000?