NationStates Jolt Archive

http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/25/news/newsmakers/enron_verdict/index.htm?cnn=yes

Skilling was found guilty on 19 counts of conspiracy, fraud, false statements and insider trading. He was found not guilty on eight counts of insider trading.

Lay was found guilty on all six counts of conspiracy and fraud. In a separate bench trial, Judge Sim Lake ruled Lay was guilty of four counts of fraud and false statements.

Now, how long before the Presidential pardons. Oh that's right, Bush barely knows Lay. He's just an acquaintance. A "supporter".

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/bushlay1.html

HA!

Well, if he was an Friend of Bill, he could just buy a pardon from the Clinton administration.

Fuck em

Well, if he was an Friend of Bill, he could just buy a pardon from the Clinton administration.
Instead he was a friend of Bush so he was allowed to bilk millions of Californians out of billions of dollars and millions of shareholder, pension plan shareholders, out of their whole lifes savings.

And, Yes! He was able to do this because of President George Bush. Bush actively helped him steal that money.

Bush actively helped him steal that money.
Do you have even one tiny little bit of evidence to back up that lie? :gundge:

http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/25/news/newsmakers/enron_verdict/index.htm?cnn=yes



Now, how long before the Presidential pardons. Oh that's right, Bush barely knows Lay. He's just an acquaintance. A "supporter".

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/bushlay1.html

HA!

Their won't be any padons.

Rot away in prisons boys.

All I xan say is, GOOD.
Nice to see justice can't be bought in this case. Hope they go away for a long long time.

Well, if he was an Friend of Bill, he could just buy a pardon from the Clinton administration.

Exactly one (1) [uno] {ein} post until a "But Clinton!"

Does your knee ever bother you when it rains? You know, from all that jerking.

Exactly one (1) [uno] {ein} post until a "But Clinton!"

Does your knee ever bother you when it rains? You know, from all that jerking.
One could almost make a new internet rule, a la Godwin.
When a poster invokes Clinton as a rebuttal for anything happening now that relates to the current Bush Administration, they have automatically lost whatever point they were trying to make

Do you have even one tiny little bit of evidence to back up that lie? :gundge:
In late 1999 it became apparent to the financial press that something was wrong at Enron. The consistently avoided releasing cash flow charts and hid their accounting methods. It became apparent that they needed quick cash to cover up the losses they were taking and hiding in an accounting scheme called "Mark on Market" accounting. To do this they decided they could get the money from California by manufacturing an energy crisis. The way it worked was that electricity traders on the Enron floor in Houston woudl call their power plants in California and tell them to shut down for maintenance. They have them taped on the phone doing this. When the plants closed you had rolling blackouts and the price of electricity would skyrocket in California. Enron would then sell electricity from its out of state plants at these inflated rates to make up for the shortfall that they created when they shut down the plants in California. The state controller and the governors office were caught completely off guard because there was no reason why there shoudl be an energy crisis. They knew what the state's capacity was and they knew they weren't pushing that capacity. Here's where Bush comes in. The governor of california's office asked the Bush administration for help from the Department of Energy. They wanted the crisis investigated and they wanted the price of electricity capped until they were sure no one was ripping the state off. Bush had a conference call with Ken lay, the guy who just got convicted and a lifelong friend of the Bush family, and after the call he refused to allow the DOE to investigate. He said that the market needed to adjust to new energy realities. The problem was that california had plenty of capacity so tere was no adjustment needed. They were being ripped off by Enron and Bush's friend Ken Lay. That, in a nutshell, is what this whole case is about. That and the fact that they lied for a long time about the companies financial portfolio and bilked peopel into investing in the company to inflate stock prices. The fact is, all Bush had to do was tell teh DOE to look into it and it would have stopped. Instead, he let his friend rip off millions of California residents and businesses.

You "Lay" down with dogs, you come up with fleas.

This is a perfect example of why we need to bring back the stocks. It would be only fitting that as part of their punishment, Kenny and Jeffy would have to be publicly humiliated by placing them in the stocks and letting their victims (and anyone else who felt like it, really) throw rotten vegetables at them from, say, noon to eight, three days a week till the end of their sentence.

I thought it said "Law and Skiing". That would have been so much more fun... Anyway, good for whoever has been frauded.

happy to see it. So when is california getting its money back. oh wait, Governer Arnie signed away their rights to getting it back didn't he?

Well, if he was an Friend of Bill, he could just buy a pardon from the Clinton administration.
Coincidentally, he was a Friend of Bill.

Sometimes, though, you can screw up so bad, no one will help you.

Well, if he was an Friend of Bill, he could just buy a pardon from the Clinton administration.


Lame.

All Presidents have pardoned "questionable" people. Even your beloved Regan did....

Their won't be any padons.

Rot away in prisons boys.

Minimum security prison. That will teach them!

Minimum security prison. That will teach them!
Minimum security isn't the picnic people make it out to be. Sure, they will have it better than if they were in Sing Sing, but they'll never get to decide when to eat, sleep, walk or talk again.

Minimum security isn't the picnic people make it out to be. Sure, they will have it better than if they were in Sing Sing, but they'll never get to decide when to eat, sleep, walk or talk again.

Martha did ok.

Besides, with what they pocketed. A year or two is not so bad. You don't see Keating begging anywhere.

If you are going to commit crime, make sure it's white collar, involves millions or billions, and you make donations to the political parties.

Martha did ok.

Besides, with what they pocketed. A year or two is not so bad. You don't see Keating begging anywhere.

If you are going to commit crime, make sure it's white collar, involves millions or billions, and you make donations to the political parties.
Martha was in for a few months. These guys are facing 60 years. At their age, it's fair to say they'll never be out again - at least not before they wear diapers.

Martha was in for a few months. These guys are facing 60 years. At their age, it's fair to say they'll never be out again - at least not before they wear diapers.

Sure.

When was the last time you saw a wealthy white ceo that donates to politics and a friend of the President do more then 2 years?

Sure.

When was the last time you saw a wealthy white ceo that donates to politics and a friend of the President do more then 2 years?

Skilling is facing up to 185 years. Given the fact that the jury, by finding them guilty has said that they were lying on the witness stand, and judges tend not to like being so disrespected, I can see each of them getting 40 + years.

Sure.

When was the last time you saw a wealthy white ceo that donates to politics and a friend of the President do more then 2 years?
fastow's already done more than that and there's no sign he's getting out any sooner. The sentence is not up to george Bush. It's up to the jury and I just read that I was worng about the amount of time they face. they don't face 60 years, they face 200. These guys didn't try to write off prostitutes on their corporate accounts. They didn't bilk some investors out of a few hundred thousand dollars. These guys ripped off the State of California and several thousand investors to teh tune of billions. They manufactured an energy crisis that forced businesses to close and indirectly caused a recall campaign for teh governorship of california. They cause millions of California taxpayers to pay energy bills that were double and triple what they should have been. They're gone.

fastow's already done more than that and there's no sign he's getting out any sooner. The sentence is not up to george Bush. It's up to the jury and I just read that I was worng about the amount of time they face. they don't face 60 years, they face 200. These guys didn't try to write off prostitutes on their corporate accounts. They didn't bilk some investors out of a few hundred thousand dollars. These guys ripped off the State of California and several thousand investors to teh tune of billions. They manufactured an energy crisis that forced businesses to close and indirectly caused a recall campaign for teh governorship of california. They cause millions of California taxpayers to pay energy bills that were double and triple what they should have been. They're gone.

When Fastow passes the 5 year mark then I will belive you.

Lay will not see 200 years. Lay will not die in prision.

Skilling will probably do the same.

Again. How many wealthy white businessmen who donate to politics die in prision?

Skilling is facing up to 185 years. Given the fact that the jury, by finding them guilty has said that they were lying on the witness stand, and judges tend not to like being so disrespected, I can see each of them getting 40 + years.

It doesn't matter what the judge thinks. When he leaves the courts, the penal system decides things from that point on.

I had a judge explain that in court once......

When Fastow passes the 5 year mark then I will belive you.

Lay will not see 200 years. Lay will not die in prision.

Skilling will probably do the same.

Again. How many wealthy white businessmen who donate to politics die in prision?
You have to throw in the "white" part as if OJ was white. I'm not denying that wealthy people don't get better lawyers, but these guys were convicted of the most serious crimes in corporate history save possible the Worldcom scandal and Bernie Ebbers go 25 years for that. They're toast. You also didn't ask if they "die in prison." You said they dont' spend more than 2 years in prison. They do and these guys will be eating marshmellows by the time they get out if they ever do.

And Fastow's plea agreement is for a minimum of 10 years so he can't get out before that.

You have to throw in the "white" part as if OJ was white.

Ahh but OJ wasn't a CEO.

But he is wealthy and it helps in American law.


I'm not denying that wealthy people don't get better lawyers, but these guys were convicted of the most serious crimes in corporate history save possible the Worldcom scandal and Bernie Ebbers go 25 years for that. They're toast. You also didn't ask if they "die in prison." You said they dont' spend more than 2 years in prison. They do and these guys will be eating marshmellows by the time they get out if they ever do.

And Fastow's plea agreement is for a minimum of 10 years so he can't get out before that.

Die in prision means he won't serve his full term. The same for Ebbers. He will get out.

Ahh but OJ wasn't a CEO.

But he is wealthy and it helps in American law.



Die in prision means he won't serve his full term. The same for Ebbers. He will get out.
Not as a young man. If you're saying that privilage buys justice, sure. But there's only so far that goes, especially when you look at all the extremely wealthy people who lost tons of cash because of these guys. Ebbers is 64 years old. His sentance takes him to 89. Even if he gets good behavior, something every prisoner can get, he still gets out at 79. Also, he didn't get camp fed. Homeboy's doing hard time in Mississippi. And fastow's gonna do all ten of his even if he lick-shines the wraden's boots because that's his plea arrangement. He went in at 43 and he'll get out at 53 and he only got that sentance because he agreed to testify against Lay and Skilling. Lay and Skilling got no one to serve up. They are the top dogs. If they get out alive they'll be peeing and crapping where they sit and keeping their teeth in a glass next to the TV tray. These guys are going to be in prison for most, if not all of the rest of their lives.

Not as a young man. If you're saying that privilage buys justice, sure. But there's only so far that goes, especially when you look at all the extremely wealthy people who lost tons of cash because of these guys. Ebbers is 64 years old. His sentance takes him to 89. Even if he gets good behavior, something every prisoner can get, he still gets out at 79. Also, he didn't get camp fed. Homeboy's doing hard time in Mississippi. And fastow's gonna do all ten of his even if he lick-shines the wraden's boots because that's his plea arrangement. He went in at 43 and he'll get out at 53 and he only got that sentance because he agreed to testify against Lay and Skilling. Lay and Skilling got no one to serve up. They are the top dogs. If they get out alive they'll be peeing and crapping where they sit and keeping their teeth in a glass next to the TV tray. These guys are going to be in prison for most, if not all of the rest of their lives.

Time will tell.

I doubt they will see the full term.

I love Greg Palast
http://gregpalast.com/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If reading isn't your thing, here's the BBC report which at least shows a bit about what Enron did to California, how Bush helped them do it and how closely tied Bush is to Enron and Ken Lay: http://gregpalast.com/enronreport.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lay Convicted, Bush Walks (and Ahnold Gets Lay'd)
Special For Truthout
Wednesday, May 24, 2006
by Greg Palast

Don't kid yourself. If you think the conviction of Ken Lay means that
George Bush is serious about going after corporate bad guys, think
again.

First, Lay got away with murder -- or at least grand larceny. Like Al
Capone convicted of failing to file his taxes, Ken Lay, though found
guilty of stock fraud, is totally off the hook for his BIG crime: taking
down California and Texas consumers for billions through fraud on the
power markets.

Lay, co-convict Jeff Skilling and Enron did not act alone. They
connived with half a dozen other power companies and a dozen investment banks
to manipulate both the stock market and the electricity market. And
though their co-conspirators have now paid $3 billion to settle civil
claims, the executives of these other corporations and banks get a walk on
criminal charges.

Furthermore, to protect our President's boardroom buddies from any
further discomforts, the Bush Justice Department, just days ago, indicted
Milberg, Weiss, the law firm that nailed Enron's finance industry
partners-in-crime. The timing of the bust of this, the top
corporation-battling law firm, smacks of political prosecution -- and a signal to Big
Business that it's business as usual.

Lay and Skilling have to pay up their ill-gotten gains to Enron's
stockholders, but what about the $9-plus billion owe electricity consumers?
The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, Bush's electricity cops, have
slapped Enron and its gang of power pirates on the wrist. Could that
have something to do with the fact that Ken Lay, in secret chats with
Dick Cheney, selected the Commission's chairmen?

Team Bush had to throw the public a bone -- so they threw us Lay and
Skilling -- for the crime, note, not of ripping off the public, but
ripping off stockholders, the owner class.

This limited conviction, and the announcement of only one more
indictment -- of the crime-busters at Milberg-Weiss -- is Team Bush's "all
clear!" signal for the sharks to jump back into the power pool.

That leaves one question: if Bush's Justice Department let Ken and
company keep the California loot, what about that state's own government?
If you want to know how Californian's $9 billion went bye-bye, read on
...


WHEN AHNOLD GOT LAY'D
[From Armed Madhouse , Greg Palast's new book out 06-06-06. Order it
now at www.GregPalast.com]

Peninsula Hotel, Beverly Hills. May 17, 2001. The Financial Criminal of
the twentieth century, not long out of prison, meets with the Financial
Criminal of the twenty-first century who feared he may also have to do
hard time. These two, bond-market manipulator Mike Millikin and Ken
Lay, not-yet-indicted Chairman of Enron Corporation, were joined by a
selected group of movers and shakers -- and one movie star.

Arnold Schwarzenegger had been to such private parties before. As a
young immigrant without a nickel to his name, he put on private displays
of his musculature for guests of his promoter. As with those early
closed gatherings, I don't know all that went on at the Peninsula Hotel
meet, though I understand Ahnold,_ this time, did not have to strip down to
his Speedos. Nevertheless, the moral undressing was just as lascivious,
if you read through the 34 page fax that arrived at our office.

Lay, who convened the hugger-mugger, was in a bit of trouble. Enron and
the small oligopoly of other companies that ruled California's
electricity system had been caught jacking up the price of power and gas by
fraud, conspiracy and manipulation. A billion here, a billion there, and
pretty soon it was real money - $6.3 billion in suspect windfalls in
just six months, May through December 2000, for a half-dozen electricity
buccaneers, at least $9 billion for the year. Their skim would have been
higher but the tricksters thought they were limited by the number of
digits the state's power-buying computers could read.

When Ken met Arnold in the hotel room, the games were far from over.
For example , in June 2003, Reliant Corporation of Houston simply turned
off several power plants, and when California cities faced going dark,
the company sold them a pittance of kilowatts for more than gold,
making several million in minutes.

Power-market shenanigans were nothing new in 2000. What was new was the
response of Governor Gray Davis. A normally quiet, if not dull, man,
this Governor had the temerity to call the energy sellers "pirates_" --
in public! -- and, even more radically, he asked them to give back all
the ill-gotten loot, the entire $9 billion. The state filed a regulatory
complaint with the federal government.

The Peninsula Hotel get-together was all about how to "settle"_ the
legal actions in such a way that Enron and friends could get the state to
accept dog food instead of dollars. Davis seemed unlikely to see things
Ken's way. Life would be so much better if California had a governor
like the muscle guy in the Speedos.

And so it came to pass that, in 2003, quiet Gray Davis, who had the
cojones to stand up to the electricity barons, was thrown out of office by
the voters and replaced by the tinker-toy tough guy. The Governator_
performed as desired. Soon after Schwarzenegger took over from Davis, he
signed off on a series of deals with Reliant, Williams Company, Dynegy,
Entergy and the other power pirates for ten to twenty cents on the
dollar, less than you'd tip the waitress. Enron paid just about nothing.

Exactly one (1) [uno] {ein} post until a "But Clinton!"

Does your knee ever bother you when it rains? You know, from all that jerking.
ah but the VERY FIRST POST, yours. inferred that Bush would pardon Lay. so the first shot once again is at President Bush.

ah but the VERY FIRST POST, yours. inferred that Bush would pardon Lay. so the first shot once again is at President Bush.

Yes, because Bush lied about their relationship (supported by the 2nd link in my post.)

Yes, because Bush lied about their relationship (supported by the 2nd link in my post.)
and Clinton handed out pardons to supporters as well as friends. so if GW does Pardon Lay, it's no different than any past President.

However, I have a feeling that he won't pardon Lay. Too High Profile a case.

and Clinton handed out pardons to supporters as well as friends. so if GW does Pardon Lay, it's no different than any past President.

However, I have a feeling that he won't pardon Lay. Too High Profile a case.

I don't know. Did any of the past pardons involve people that screwed over 1000s of people?

I don't know. Did any of the past pardons involve people that screwed over 1000s of people?

Mark Rich did screw over the people of Iraq through his work as an oil-for-food middleman, and Almon Braswell was pardoned of fraud, perjury and tax evasion convictions as part of a mail order scam. Carlos Vignali was pardoned for cocaine trafficking. We don't know how many people in Columbia were murdered by druglords whose campaigns of terror are funded by trafficking of illegal drugs in to the US.

There were 140 people pardoned, including 16 FALN terrorists...they might not have screwed over thousands of people, but they did commit acts of terrorism and sedition.

Clinton's pardons are as equally unacceptable as Bush's pardon of Lay or any corporate crooks would be.

I don't know. Did any of the past pardons involve people that screwed over 1000s of people?is there a quota or a rule on which friends can be pardoned or not?

but let's check the list (http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm)...
Drug trafficking/distribution charges:
ALTIERE, Nicholas M
BANE, Scott Lynn
BLAMPIED, David Roscoe
CHAMBERS, Donna Denise
CUNNINGHAM, Rickey Lee
FERNANDEZ, Marcos Arcenio
HAMNER, Robert Ivey
HARMON, Jay Houston
HUCKLEBERRY, Debi Rae
LOPEZ, Hildebrando
MANESS, James Timothy
MORGAN, Charles Wilfred, III
OBERMEIER, Vernon Raymond
OGALDE, Miguelina
RILEY, Richard Wilson, Jr.
ROSS, Anna Louise
RUTHERFORD, Bettye June
SANDS, Gregory Lee
STEWART-ROLLINS, Marlena Francisca
VAMVOUKLIS, Ignatious (Possession only)
WILLIAMS, Kevin Arthur
WOOD, Mitchell Couey

Fraud (Bank, Federal, Mail, Money Laundering and/or Medicade)
ALTSCHUL, Bernice Ruth
ANDERSON, William Sterling
BABIN, Cleveland Victor, Jr.
BARBER, Thomas Cleveland
BORDERS, William Arthur, Jr.
BRABHAM, George Thomas
BRASWELL, Almon Glenn
BROWN, David Steven
CAMPBELL, Mary Louise
CHAPMAN, Douglas Eugene
CHAPMAN, Ronald Keith
COHN, Stuart Harris
COOPER, David Marc
COX, Ernest Harley, Jr.
DE LABIO, Richard Anthony
DOWNE, Edward Reynolds
FAIN, Robert Clinton
FERROUILLET, Alvarez
GEORGE, Lloyd Reid
GOLDSTEIN, Louis
GORDON, Rubye Lee
HANDLEY, Samuel Price
HANDLEY, Woodie Randolph
HEMMINGSON, John
HERDLINGER, David S.
JAMES, Donald Ray
JOBE, Stanley Pruet
JONES, Linda
LAKE, James Howard
LEWIS, Salim Bonnor
MITCHELL, Brook K., Sr.
NAZZARO, Richard Anthony
NOSENKO, Charlene Ann
PERHOSKY, Kelli Anne
PEZZOPANE, Richard H.
PHILLIPS, Orville Rex
RAVENEL, Charles D.
RAY, William Clyde
TENAGLIA, Nicholas C.
WEBB, Donna Lynn
WILLIAMS, Robert Michael
WILSON, Jimmie Lee
WINGATE, Thelma Louise
WOOD, Warren Stannard
WORTHEY, Dewey
YALE, Rick Allen

and there are others including those arrested for Tax Evasion, Armed Robbery, Aiding/abbeting Illegal Aliens, and even a couple of Odometer rollbacks. :D

and let's not forget Marc Rich. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Rich)

and these were granted in January 2001... as he was leaving office.

and to be fair, Bush sr as well as other presidents also granted Pardons. the least is Bush sr (74) and the most Ford (863)

now, I am not saying President Bush will or won't pardon Lay, I'm hoping not. but the real telling would be in January 2009.

Yay! Let's hope there is a butt fuck waiting for them in prison! =D

if they even go to prison - they are appealing and will continue appeal until death i imagine :P

if they even go to prison - they are appealing and will continue appeal until death i imagine :P

I don't know; their assets got hammered pretty hard by the Feds, so their legal fund is already heavily depleted. They might be able to keep up the appeals for a while, but I think they'll serve time regardless.

if they even go to prison - they are appealing and will continue appeal until death i imagine :p
i believe everyone here finds it very Appealing that Lay and Skillings will be behind bars. :D

I don't know; their assets got hammered pretty hard by the Feds, so their legal fund is already heavily depleted. They might be able to keep up the appeals for a while, but I think they'll serve time regardless.

You mean the assets inside the country and what they know about.....

is there a quota or a rule on which friends can be pardoned or not?

but let's check the list (http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm)... <snippage> Oddly enough I don't see anything there that supports that these are friends of Clinton. Even stranger, you'd think that a list of real friends pardoned would have included the McDougals, eh?

and to be fair, Bush sr as well as other presidents also granted Pardons. the least is Bush sr (74) and the most Ford (863)Including what is perhaps to most notorious of presidential pardons, that of Richard M. Nixon.

Presidential pardons in general are problematic. But it should be noted that a large portion of the Clinton pardons addressed miscarriages of justice related to imposition of the Federal Sentencing Guidelines and similar state rules.

Oddly enough I don't see anything there that supports that these are friends of Clinton. Even stranger, you'd think that a list of real friends pardoned would have included the McDougals, eh?check the list, McDOUGAL, Susan H. is on there.

Including what is perhaps to most notorious of presidential pardons, that of Richard M. Nixon.which is why I said, "To be Fair." Unlike others here on the Forums, I hold both sides neither guiltless nor blameless when in power.

Presidential pardons in general are problematic. But it should be noted that a large portion of the Clinton pardons addressed miscarriages of justice related to imposition of the Federal Sentencing Guidelines and similar state rules.not a large portion... some.