NationStates Jolt Archive

An audio recording supposedly of Osama Bin Laden denies Zacarias Moussaoui, the only person convicted over the 9/11 attacks, was involved in the operation.

If true what does this mean about the man Moussaoui himself?

With hindsight, was he 'innocent'?

Was the ''no to the death-penalty'' a correct verdict?

"I am the one in charge of the 19 brothers and I never assigned brother Zacarias to be with them in that mission," the voice said, in a reference to the 19 hijackers of 11 September 2001.

"Since Zacarias Moussaoui was still learning how to fly, he wasn't No 20 in the group, as your government claimed," he said.


An unidentified US counterterrorism official told the Associated Press news agency that the US was aware of the message and there was no reason to doubt its authenticity.

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5010764.stm)

Could it not be that Bin Laden said this to undermine US confidence in its sentencing system?

Interestingly, Bin Laden also claims pretty direct responsibility for the attacks on this one. I thought he hadn't done it that directly before.

At any rate, I think Moussaoui is your classic modern terrorist: A disaffected dude who makes contact with the wrong sort of people and ultimately acts (or doesn't, as in this particular case), not on direct orders, but merely on an ideology.

Which makes the whole "get Bin Laden" and "destroy AQ" talk so pointless. It wouldn't change a thing.

Could it not be that Bin Laden said this to undermine US confidence in its sentencing system?
...by showing they made the right decision in not executing him? :confused:

Wow, since when are we believing anything that Bin Laden says? This means absolutely nothing. :rolleyes:

...by showing they made the right decision in not executing him? :confused:
Oh, thought they did. :p

If Moussaui was going to be executed, he would have been hailed as a great hero and martyr, whether or not he had anything to do with 9/11. Since he's just going to sit in jail, Bin Laden is going to try and spin it so America looks stupid.

If OBL said it, I am 100% sure it is a lie. So, since he say's Moussaoui wasn't in on it, I am completely convinced he was.

Wow, since when are we believing anything that Bin Laden says? This means absolutely nothing. :rolleyes:
But if he really hasn't finished his pilot training, then why would he be made part of the mission?

Since he's just going to sit in jail, Bin Laden is going to try and spin it so America looks stupid.

...by showing that America did the right thing and not execute an 'innocent' man? :confused:

If OBL said it, I am 100% sure it is a lie.
That's just stupid.

...by showing that America did the right thing and not execute an 'innocent' man? :confused:

By showing that America spent all this time prosecuting an innocent man, who is going to rot in jail for the rest of his life.

Not that I believe him, I think that's how he's trying to spin it.

That's just stupid.


Terrorist! Terrorist!

I am going to have to send a letter to the Shrub about hidden WMD's in Australia now...

But if he really hasn't finished his pilot training, then why would he be made part of the mission?
I don't know, logistics?
Doesn't matter, Anyone who takes what Bin Laden says at face value is an idiot. I'm not saying that you are Neu Leonstein, but this guy obviously is trying to make the US look bad by saying this.

That's just stupid.
Why? That man is one of the most evil people to walk the face of the Earth, maybe you should believe some of the things that he says, but not much.

By showing that America spent all this time prosecuting an innocent man, who is going to rot in jail for the rest of his life.

...because the system works. It found him not fit to be executed. I think the US comes off quite well in this case.

More humane; less prone to reactionary, knee jerk decisions; less prone to vengeance.

Again, I think the US comes off looking good here. "Our system doesn't execute those we find 'innocent' "

interesting but pointless. noone is going to believe bin laden because he's a terrorist so he must do nothing but lie.

besides, the verdict has been cast and that's the way it is going to stay. The US justice system isn't going to change it's mind because of what a terrorist leader says.

also, why wait until after the sentencing to put this out there? he's not trying to sway verdict obviously. bin laden doesnt need to do or say anything to make the US look stupid, we do just fine on our own, but you are possibly right that that is why he is saying this now.

If true what does this mean about the man Moussaoui himself?

With hindsight, was he 'innocent'?

Was the ''no to the death-penalty'' a correct verdict?





Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5010764.stm)


Hang him.

...because the system works. It found him not fit to be executed. I think the US comes off quite well in this case.

More humane; less prone to reactionary, knee jerk decisions; less prone to vengeance.

Again, I think the US comes off looking good here. "Our system doesn't execute those we find 'innocent' "

I think the court did show admirable restraint in granting a life sentence.

But, legally, an innocent man doesn't go to jail or get convicted by legal proceedings unless there is a bias or predural error in the courts. By claiming that Moussaui had nothing to do with the attacks, Bin Laden is implying one of those faults in our courts. Like I said before, he's trying to downplay the merciful part of the sentence and play up the "mistake" in declaring him guilty in the first place so that America looks stupid.

I don't know, logistics?
Then he wouldn't be a hijacker.
And besides, what sort of logistics was it really? Renting a few apartments, and buying a few boxcutters. Not exactly a huge logistical operation.

Doesn't matter, Anyone who takes what Bin Laden says at face value is an idiot. I'm not saying that you are Neu Leonstein, but this guy obviously is trying to make the US look bad by saying this.
Obviously. But the idea that the US could be helping him quite a bit to achieve that is so foreign to you?
Seriously, the stuff Moussaoui said was ridiculous. He was obviously either insane or enjoying the attention. The only other accused that I have seen who behaved like that were in Indonesia regarding the Bali Bombings - and those are miles apart from someone who would've been on AQ's elite squad.

The US media (and everyone else it seems) was just overenthusiastic that they finally had someone they could put on trial. Finally some sort of legal result.

And that they almost put someone to death essentially for not talking says about as much about that case as one needs to know.

Why? That man is one of the most evil people to walk the face of the Earth, maybe you should believe some of the things that he says, but not much.
Evil is always the wrong word to use. Yes, he's using horrible methods to fight for horrible goals.
But your definition of evil seems to also mean that he doesn't have any personal morals. But that's silly, seeing as to how his whole fight is centered around those.
I don't think he'd use his messages to lie to the world. He'll interpret things and spout propaganda, but I don't think he'd lie. If something didn't fit his plans, he'd probably just choose not to talk about it.

Hang him.
The voice of reason speaks.

Evil is always the wrong word to use. Yes, he's using horrible methods to fight for horrible goals.
But your definition of evil seems to also mean that he doesn't have any personal morals. But that's silly, seeing as to how his whole fight is centered around those.
I don't think he'd use his messages to lie to the world. He'll interpret things and spout propaganda, but I don't think he'd lie. If something didn't fit his plans, he'd probably just choose not to talk about it.
Wow, you're giving him a whole lot more credit than he deserves. His main goal is the destruction of the United States, and I'm sure that he doesn't care what he has to do to accomplish that goal. Lying probably wouldn't be that big a deal, considering he can kill thousands and rejoice at his good fortune.
And as for his personal morals, I'm sure that he has great personal morals, and follows them excellently. But when his goals and methods include what they do, I say that no matter how moralistic he is, he is evil. But thanks for trying to define my meaning for me.

His main goal is the destruction of the United States, and I'm sure that he doesn't care what he has to do to accomplish that goal.
That's propaganda.
His main goal is the establishment of a powerful Islamist Caliphate including all most of the world. The US just so happens to be in the way, due to its support for oppressive regimes in the Middle East that are considered to be anti-Islamic by most Islamists (eg Saudi Arabia).

Have a look:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=434314
http://www.robert-fisk.com/usama_bin_ladin_in_sudan1996.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/interview.html
http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990111/osama1.html

Lying probably wouldn't be that big a deal, considering he can kill thousands and rejoice at his good fortune.
Which would be against god's code of conduct. Afterall, he's mainly speaking to the Islamic population of the world.
If you don't think that would matter to him, it just shows that you haven't understood your enemy.

The voice of reason speaks.

The dude was clearly guilty but not guilty enough to hang for it? From what I heard only ONE juror didn't think he deserved death. C'mon. Instead of sending him directly to hell now he gets to wait 40 years.

The dude was clearly guilty but not guilty enough to hang for it?
Seemingly so.

From what I heard only ONE juror didn't think he deserved death.

And?
C'mon. Instead of sending him directly to hell now he gets to wait 40 years.

You'd piss all over your Constitution just to get petty revenge?

Could it not be that Bin Laden said this to undermine US confidence in its sentencing system?
That sounds quite obvious.

The dude was clearly guilty but not guilty enough to hang for it? From what I heard only ONE juror didn't think he deserved death. C'mon. Instead of sending him directly to hell now he gets to wait 40 years.

No he'll wait forty years not getting his 70 Virgins that he thinks he's owed. I'm sure he's pissed about that. (Maybe it's 35 Virgins because he wasn't able to kill the Infidels.) Either way, according to his version of Islam, No sex for him... (Unless The Unibomber is secretly Gay or something) With luck he'll run into Eric Rudolph and they'll have a Muslim Terrorist Versus Christian Terrorist Fight. I'd watch it.

The dude was clearly guilty but not guilty enough to hang for it? From what I heard only ONE juror didn't think he deserved death. C'mon. Instead of sending him directly to hell now he gets to wait 40 years.

If he ends up in general population, the other prisoners will probably kill him far sooner than that.

Seemingly so.



And?


You'd piss all over your Constitution just to get petty revenge?

Moussouai isn't a US citizen. It doesn't apply to him.

Moussouai isn't a US citizen. It doesn't apply to him.
Think again.

Which would be against god's code of conduct. Afterall, he's mainly speaking to the Islamic population of the world.
If you don't think that would matter to him, it just shows that you haven't understood your enemy.

No.

Lying is prohibited but permitted in certain instances (for ex, for the cause/preservation of islam, to save a life from danger etc). It is called taqiyya and theoretically OBL can tell a lie knowing it as a lie and still consider that his morality is intact due to taqiyya.

No.

Lying is prohibited but permitted in certain instances (for ex, for the cause/preservation of islam, to save a life from danger etc). It is called taqiyya and theoretically OBL can tell a lie knowing it as a lie and still consider that his morality is intact due to taqiyya.


Of course they have a loophole to help them pervert everything in their faith to suit their own personal needs. Its all bullshit.

He's a slithering scumbag. I'm looking foward to his capture.

It is called taqiyya and theoretically OBL can tell a lie knowing it as a lie and still consider that his morality is intact due to taqiyya.
Thanks for that.

Okay, so assuming that he lied about Moussaoui not being in the operation...did he lie about taking responsibility for 9/11 too?
It just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me, and the simplest answer is usually the right one.

this douchebag has likely never uttered a word that didnt serve ultimately himself or his own personal, twisted goals.

considering anything he says to be of value to us one way or another is a waste of time.
It'll be nice when they find him ,shave and cage him.

If true what does this mean about the man Moussaoui himself?

With hindsight, was he 'innocent'?

Was the ''no to the death-penalty'' a correct verdict?

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5010764.stm)

There's only one question you need to ask yourself.

Why was Moussaoui taking flight lessons to learn how to fly large passenger jets, and yet, according to all the instructors he dealt with, he had NO interest in learning how to land - just how to take off and fly the plane?

I guess people like that are in every flight class, especially Muslim foreigners who are in constant contact with the same financier who was funding the other 19 hijackers.

There's only one question you need to ask yourself.

Why was Moussaoui taking flight lessons to learn how to fly large passenger jets, and yet, according to all the instructors he dealt with, he had NO interest in learning how to land - just how to take off and fly the plane?

I guess people like that are in every flight class, especially Muslim foreigners who are in constant contact with the same financier who was funding the other 19 hijackers.

So, you'd execute him for a future crime he may or may not end up committing? Wow, ''Pre-Crime" eh?

You seem to have answered a question you were never asked.

If OBL said it, I am 100% sure it is a lie.
So you think he had nothing to do with the attacks as well, since he claimed responsibility?

Okay, so assuming that he lied about Moussaoui not being in the operation...did he lie about taking responsibility for 9/11 too?
It just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me, and the simplest answer is usually the right one.

Not necessarily.

Moussaoui is small fry anyways.

reg, 9/11 - OBL was definitely involved - atleast in the financing, planning, men selection parts etc...but it is also my belief that there were other conspirators (no not the bush/ev1! joo theory....I am talking about the line that goes through omar sheikh and mahmud ahmad, the pak air force chief and the 3 princes of al-saud family named by Abu Zubaydah as having fore knowledge of 9/11 - all of whom died mysteriously soon after 9/11....)

A popular joke goes like

Phone call to Bush at 8.30 AM on 9/11

Musharraf : Dear Mr. Bush, we are very sorry to hear about the great tragedy that has struck your nation. We wish to inform you that the nation of Pakistan stands by....

Bush : What are you talking about?

Mush : errrr..what time is it?

Bush : 8:30

Mush : Sorry, we will call back in 2 hours....

Does Bin Laden send these tapes via airmail? Im seriously curious as to how we receive them.

Does Bin Laden send these tapes via airmail? Im seriously curious as to how we receive them.

It is sent by an elaborate chain of couriers at the end of which it reaches some media guy in Pak and then it goes to the highest bidder (al-jazeera usually).

Does Bin Laden send these tapes via airmail? Im seriously curious as to how we receive them.
Via Al Jazeera or Al Arabiya normally.

Journalistic endeavour :D

If OBL said it, I am 100% sure it is a lie. So, since he say's Moussaoui wasn't in on it, I am completely convinced he was.


This 'logic' is genius.

Osama admits to being involved in a terrorist attack...

So, by this logic, he wasn't...

So, he might not be a terrorist...

So, maybe he CAN be trusted?

So... maybe he really WAS involved in a terrorist attack...

But then... that means he must be a terrorist...

Which means he can't be trusted...

So - he's probably lying about being involved in that terrorist attack...


etc.

It is sent by an elaborate chain of couriers at the end of which it reaches some media guy in Pak and then it goes to the highest bidder (al-jazeera usually).

Just curious... is there a thread you DON'T attack Pakistan in? It's getting pretty old...

Just curious... is there a thread you DON'T attack Pakistan in? It's getting pretty old...

No I am curious... Where did I attack Pak in this thread?

No I am curious... Where did I attack Pak in this thread?

"no not the bush/ev1! joo theory....I am talking about the line that goes through omar sheikh and mahmud ahmad, the pak air force chief and the 3 princes of al-saud family named by Abu Zubaydah as having fore knowledge of 9/11 - all of whom died mysteriously soon after 9/11"...

"no not the bush/ev1! joo theory....I am talking about the line that goes through omar sheikh and mahmud ahmad, the pak air force chief and the 3 princes of al-saud family named by Abu Zubaydah as having fore knowledge of 9/11 - all of whom died mysteriously soon after 9/11"...

Abu Zubaydah. Obviously he is attacking Pakistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Zubaydah

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,480240,00.html

Time, Gerald Posner all are attacking Pakistan....oh the horror....

Just in case you bring up the tape issue..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6363306/
Al-Jazeera: Bin Laden tape obtained in Pakistan

msnbc, al-jazeera too....attacking and slandering pak....