NationStates Jolt Archive

My main question is, do you believe the story given as the end of factual discovery in this case? Less than half of my fellow countrymen believe the story to be true? What causes so many people to lose faith in their government's ability to conduct an investigation in a truthful and straightforward way? My personal feelings are these: The original story is partially true, there have been inconsistencies, these incosistencies need to be explained to appease a wide array of people that the truth has come out. For instance, a group of physicists/chemists from around the world have come to the conclusion that temperatures were not hot enough to melt the steel, and if they were the collapse would have been far different from the one that occurred. As for those who are looking for conspiracy buster sites, there's a great one from popular mehanics that dispells the most widely known "conspiracy theories."

An American and Native New Yorker

I believe the officially story exactly as much as I believe this administration is doing everything it does in the public interest and only to serve as governance for the people.

I believe the conspiracy theories exactly as much as I believe Scientology to be a good idea.

In short ...

Well ...

*coff*

For instance, a group of physicists/chemists from around the world have come to the conclusion that temperatures were not hot enough to melt the steel,


This one is a doddle

Get 2 pieces of steel wire, with a breaking strain of say 100 lbs, hang them up from the ceiling and load them both with a 60lb weight.

Next get a blowtoch and heat one of the wires to about 650C (about the temperature of an aviation fuel fire) and watch what happens.... mind your feet though.

You do not have to melt steel to seriously affect its load bearing abilities

It is interesting, given how little faith people have in the competence of governments at the best of times, how convinced they are that said governments are masters at covering up things.

Well, some people are idiots (to put it bluntly) - they can't help but be liberal whiners who need to believe that the government has to have caused every major disaster... just look at all those people who say that the World Bank is evil (morons...) Just because it has to do with the governments of rich countries doesn't mean it has to be evil and corrupt, part of some conspiracy!

Less than half believe in some sort of 9-11 Conspiracy?

This is indeed a testament to the failing educational standards of public schools.

Less than half believe in some sort of 9-11 Conspiracy?

This is indeed a testament to the failing educational standards of public schools.

What??? LOL

I am not sure Terrorist Attacks on US Soil is a class that is taught in public schools. Nor should it be, until it is history and the facts are layed out.

So, you a high school drop out? What's your deal?

Count me in the less than half that believe Al qaeda operatives hijacked airplanes and crashed them into the world trade center buildings the pentagon and into a field on september 11th 2001.

I wonder what the rest believe happened?

I wonder what the rest believe happened?

Bunnies ... so ... many .... bunnies!

Count me in the less than half that believe Al qaeda operatives hijacked airplanes and crashed them into the world trade center buildings the pentagon and into a field on september 11th 2001.

I wonder what the rest believe happened?


They probably believe Saddam did it.

Why not send those ignorant liberal hippies to camp x-ray and rape them untill they "comply" and accept the fact that Saddam's terrorist hordes did it?
It's not illegal, nor is it inhumane...It's cuba, you know.

I believe the US government did all of this entirely by themselves as a reason to accuse the oil producing countries of being 'terrorists', so that the US could go to war with Iraq, and make the US's oil reserves less depleted. But I'm a moron... I believe anything that isn't the official story if it makes sense to my puny illogical head, so meh.

Why not send those ignorant liberal hippies to camp x-ray and rape them untill they "comply" and accept the fact that Saddam's terrorist hordes did it?
It's not illegal, nor is it inhumane...It's cuba, you know.

Heh...

You're joking, right?

Personally, I don't believe that the US government (or any government) is competent enough to pull something like this off. If there is a secret government pulling the strings, however, I still find it doubtful, since I would have thought they'd have more foresight than to wait until the oil reserves are running low and then try to take control by force.

It was obviously the Zionist Overlords. What other logical explaination is there?

It is interesting, given how little faith people have in the competence of governments at the best of times, how convinced they are that said governments are masters at covering up things.
Hear hear.

I'd also like to know where that "more than half" number comes from. What poll? What questions were asked? Etc.

I only stated the US government did what I think they did to stop oil reserves running low, I didn't say they were low already.

Personally, I don't believe that the US government (or any government) is competent enough to pull something like this off. If there is a secret government pulling the strings, however, I still find it doubtful, since I would have thought they'd have more foresight than to wait until the oil reserves are running low and then try to take control by force.

The thing about conspiracy theories is... you don't HAVE TO cover anything up completely.

If you can make it so that there MIGHT be some doubt, and then harp on about those 'damn conspiracy theorists'...

Heh...

You're joking, right?

Well...It's legal, and raping and beating is the standard american method of liberating and enlightening.

Hear hear.

I'd also like to know where that "more than half" number comes from. What poll? What questions were asked? Etc.
Em, 'Do you believe [insert official story told regarding 11/9/01]?' was probably the question. But I concur, where be the source?

I'd also like to know where that "more than half" number comes from. What poll? What questions were asked? Etc.


hahah, what are the odds that its a repeat of that "Alien Abduction" survey that found that one in four Americans had undergone an abduction.

They did not ask "Have you ever been abducted by aliens" though, that might put people off, so they asked questions about "symptoms" of alien abduction instead :P

Gotta love questionnare people.

hahah, what are the odds that its a repeat of that "Alien Abduction" survey that found that one in four Americans had undergone an abduction.

They did not ask "Have you ever been abducted by aliens" though, that might put people off, so they asked questions about "symptoms" of alien abduction instead :P

Gotta love questionnare people.
I'm sure someone could write a poll that would give Bush a 60% approval rating--it's just a matter of the wording.

The thing about conspiracy theories is... you don't HAVE TO cover anything up completely.

If you can make it so that there MIGHT be some doubt, and then harp on about those 'damn conspiracy theorists'...
I believe that the governments of the world most likely are just a bunch of idiots who would have got other jobs if they had intelligence rather than ambition.
However, the idea of a secret government "behind the scenes" who actually thinks in the long term and just uses the visible governments as a distraction is an interesting one and not impossible.

You are all fools. The World Trade Center was destroyed by tribbles. The Al-Qaeda theory is in fact propaganda disseminated by the molemen, who seek to cause a distruption in the world's supply of oil so they can invade from their home within the hollow earth.

I just dont believe it was the people they said it was.

One thing is for sure, if it was a conspiracy then the current administration was not behind it. If you believe that they were competent enough to pull of something of that magnitude then you give them far too much credit!

By the way, it was not a conspiracy by the Illuminati either, because we all know that there is no such organization!

Fnord

Well, some people are idiots (to put it bluntly) - they can't help but be liberal whiners who need to believe that the government has to have caused every major disaster... just look at all those people who say that the World Bank is evil (morons...) Just because it has to do with the governments of rich countries doesn't mean it has to be evil and corrupt, part of some conspiracy!

It is not compulsory to be "liberal" when one is a "whiner". One can be a whiner without being ANYthing else.

*snip*

A link please?

good. finally we are starting to realise the truth.

good. finally we are staering to realise the truth.

Despite the evidence that actually proves the official story?

Despite the evidence that actually proves the official story?
like what?

like what?

I've seen you in all the conspiracy threads where the evidence of the conspiracy has been debunked.

Where is this phantom poll that says that less than half believe the official story behind 9/11 is false? Is there one? Where is the link? How were the questions phrased? Who made the poll? Why? How is this even topic worthy?

Where is this phantom poll that says that less than half believe the official story behind 9/11 is false? Is there one? Where is the link? How were the questions phrased? Who made the poll? Why? How is this even topic worthy?

We're all waiting on a source for this so called poll.

I've seen you in all the conspiracy threads where the evidence of the conspiracy has been debunked.
Real evidence plz.

Real evidence plz.

So you believe the 9/11 story is false? Don't you also think the holocaust wasn't real/exaggerated?

I didn't know that there was an "official story." Mostly it was accounts from unoffficial news anchors that led me to believe what I believe about 9/11 (the story I think the original poster meant by "official" story).

My main question is, do you believe the story given as the end of factual discovery in this case?

Yes and no.

Yes to the operational details as investigated and reported - meaning the hijackers, the planes etc.

No - to the details of the collaborators and masterminds, especially those from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

For ex, Why is there no mention of Omar Sheikh, an ISI agent, who wired $100 K to Mohd Atta in the 911 report ?

I just don't believe that Osama sitting in Afghanistan plotted all this. I believe he is a co-conspirator, could even be a main conspirator, but there are other conspirators like Gen. Mahmoud Ahmad and Omar Sheikh who were not even questioned by the American authorities.

Interested people can go thru these links

http://www.geocities.com/charcha_2000/essays/money_trail.html


Some snippets from the link
* http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/01081803.htm

ISI chief asked to quit; had links with IA plane hijacker

"New Delhi, Oct. 8. (PTI): Pakistani Director-General of Inter- Services Intelligence (ISI), Lt. Gen. Mahmud Ahmed, has been forced into retirement after FBI investigators established "credible links" between him and Umer Sheikh, one of the three militants released in exchange for passengers of the hijacked Indian Airlines plane in 1999.

The FBI team, which had sought adequate inputs about various terrorists including Sheikh from the Intelligence agencies, was working on the linkages between Sheikh and Gen. Mahmud which are believed to have been substantiated.

Informed sources said there were enough indications with US Intelligence agencies that it was at Gen. Mahmud's instruction that Sheikh had transferred one lakh US dollars into the account of Mohammed Atta, one of the lead terrorists in strikes at the World Trade Center on September 11.

http://www.dawn.com/2001/10/09/top13.htm
"DAWN" of Karachi, Pakistan, October 8, 2001

Gen Mahmud's exit due to links with Umar Sheikh

Monitoring Desk

NEW DELHI, Oct 8: Director General of Pakistan's Inter- Services Intelligence (ISI) Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmed has been replaced after the FBI investigators established credible links between him and Umar Sheikh, one of the three militants released in exchange for passengers of the hijacked Indian Airlines plane in 1999.

The FBI team, which had sought adequate inputs about various terrorists including Sheikh from the intelligence agencies, was working on the linkages between Sheikh and former ISI chief Gen Mahmud which are believed to have been substantiated, reports PTI website.

Informed sources said there were enough indications with the US intelligence agencies that it was at Gen Mahmud's instruction that Sheikh had transferred 100,000 US dollars into the account of Mohammed Atta, one of the lead terrorists in strikes at the World Trade Centre on Sept 11, it adds.

*
Special Report: Aftermath of Terror
. Wall Street Journal, October 9, 2001

At Least Six Hijacking Suspects Got U.S. Visas in Saudi Arabia; Men Dispersed Across Globe to Major Cities Before Entering States Over 18-Month Period
By GARY FIELDS and DAVID S. CLOUD , Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

Quote: "Investigators now believe the operation's financing was arranged by top bin Laden aide Shaykh Saiid, who was using the name Mustafa Ahmad as an alias. Investigators don't know "for sure" that Mr. Saiid was the operation paymaster, but many investigators "seem to think that's right," said a U.S. official.Several wire transfers totaling $100,000 came from the United Arab Emirates to a Florida bank account of suspected hijacker Mohamad Atta roughly a year before the attacks. The money is believed to come originally from Pakistan, an official said."

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/30/104405.shtml

Saudi Charities That Backed Osama Protected

PR Newswire Monday, Oct. 1, 2001 NEW YORK -

"- Although two interrelated global charities directly financed by the Saudi government -- the International Islamic Relief Organization and the Muslim World League -- have been used by terrorist leader Osama bin Laden to finance his operations, both organizations were left off the list of groups sanctioned by the U.S. last week, intelligence officials tell Newsweek, in order to avoid embarrassing the Saudi government. Another organization dropped from the list despite being known as a bin Laden front was the Rabita Trust for the Rehabilitation of Stranded Pakistanis, with the president of Pakistan, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, on its board. Intelligence officials tell Newsweek that Washington gave Musharraf 36 hours to quit, but when he didn't, the Rabita Trust was quietly dropped from the list, reports Assistant Managing Editor Evan Thomas in the Oct. 8 issue of Newsweek (on newsstands Monday, Oct. 1).

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/01/inv.pakistan.funds/index.html

Sources: Suspected terrorist leader was wired funds through Pakistan

October 1, 2001 Posted: 11:00 AM EDT (1500 GMT) WASHINGTON (CNN)

Excerpts: "-- As much as $100,000 was wired in the past year from Pakistan to Mohamed Atta .... the wire transfers from Pakistan were sent to Atta through two banks in Florida. Then, Atta allegedly would obtain money orders -- a few thousand dollars at a time -- to ddistribute to others involved in the plot in the months before the hijackings.

* http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/13/international/13ASSE.html?pagewanted=print

Saudi and Pakistani Assets Cited for Ties to bin Laden


* http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102001money.story

Money Trail Leads to Gulf Accounts Probe: Three suspected hijackers wired $15,000 to an exchange house in United Arab Emirates on eve of the attacks.
By T. CHRISTIAN MILLER and PATRICK J. McDONNELL, Times Staff Writers

"..Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi...wired about $15,000 in cash to the currency exchange on the eve of the attacks. .... wire transfers to a man identified as Mustafa Ahmad, thought to be a financial officer in Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda terrorist network.

..Al-Shehhi wired $5,400 to Ahmad, also known as Shaykh Saiid, shortly before noon on Sept. 10 from a Western Union office at the Greyhound bus terminal in Boston...
... Separately, .. Waleed M. Alshehri sent $5,215 to Ahmad from a currency booth at Boston's Logan Airport on the evening of Sept. 9.
.... Finally, Atta wired money to Ahmad on Sept. 8 and 9. ... Ahmad picked up the transfers on Sept. 11 from the Al Ansari exchange in Sharja... The same day, Ahmad used a Saudi Arabian passport to fly from Dubai to Pakistan.."


Note to readers: The Sheikh Sayyad (sp.)is the same individual who is reported to have a handler (Lt.Gen.Mehmood Ahmed) in the Pakistani ISI.


Omar Sheikh is now held in prison for killing the American reporter Daniel Pearl for more than two years now but he has still not been questioned by any American investogator over the death of Daniel Pearl an American citizen, or over his involvement in 9/11.

Gen. Mahmoud's involvement goes even deeper. He was in Afghanistan a week before 9/11, during the death of Ahmad Shah Massoud. He was in NY on 9/11 hosted by none other than CIA ex chief - Peter Goss.

Where the hell did that less than 50% figure come from?

Where the hell did that less than 50% figure come from?

That's the question of the day :D

Where the hell did that less than 50% figure come from?
My good friend RNG, or Random Number Generator.

Less than half of the American Public believe the official story told regarding 9/11

Good.

Scepticism is evidence of strong reasoning ability.

I beleive 19 Arabs hijacked 4 planes, flew 2 of them into the WTO, killed 3000 americans and others, crashed one plane in to the white house and lost control of the other sending it into a PA field.

No I don't beleive the jews did it, or that Bush knew about it and did nothing, nor do I beleive the BS stories that the Cia did it, or that it was a missile.

Good.

Scepticism is evidence of strong reasoning ability.

Even though the evidence points to what really happened. Also...I am skeptical of this number for the OP did not provide a source for the number.

Gen. Mahmoud's involvement goes even deeper. He was in Afghanistan a week before 9/11, during the death of Ahmad Shah Massoud. He was in NY on 9/11 hosted by none other than CIA ex chief - Peter Goss.


Man we really coulda used that guy.

You are all fools. The World Trade Center was destroyed by tribbles. The Al-Qaeda theory is in fact propaganda disseminated by the molemen, who seek to cause a distruption in the world's supply of oil so they can invade from their home within the hollow earth.

So it is really a War on Tribbles? But they are so damn cute!

There are probably people who think that God did it.

I beleive 19 Arabs hijacked 4 planes, flew 2 of them into the WTO, killed 3000 americans and others, crashed one plane in to the white house and lost control of the other sending it into a PA field.

No I don't beleive the jews did it, or that Bush knew about it and did nothing, nor do I beleive the BS stories that the Cia did it, or that it was a missile.
Wait, WHAT??? :confused:

When did this happen, and why isn't it on the TV now?? :eek:

I belive 9/11 is just another Nanking (or Nanjing) Masacre. Plain and simple.

My main question is, do you believe the story given as the end of factual discovery in this case?

No Only an idiot would believe it to be the end of potential factual discovery, I am certain there are more facts.
Less than half of my fellow countrymen believe the story to be true? This is not a question.

What causes so many people to lose faith in their government's ability to conduct an investigation in a truthful and straightforward way?
The fact that very little of history reflects any governments willingness to be straightforward or truthful.

My personal feelings are these: The original story is partially true, there have been inconsistencies, these incosistencies need to be explained to appease a wide array of people that the truth has come out.
How nice for you to have feelings on this subject, what evidence do you have that any additional facts will appease anyone?

For instance, a group of physicists/chemists from around the world have come to the conclusion that temperatures were not hot enough to melt the steel, and if they were the collapse would have been far different from the one that occurred.
Well as the supposition is not that the steel beam supports melted but that the heat caused the weakening of the material....hardened steel reheated looses its temper. The only way that building could have collapsed anydifferent would have been with explosives the design flaw is the threat of a action commonly called 'pancaking' which is exactly what the buildings did.


As for those who are looking for conspiracy buster sites, there's a great one from popular mehanics that dispells the most widely known "conspiracy theories."
Most things "widely known" need to be dispelled unfortunately most of the people who "know" these "widely known" things are not interested in being wrong.


An American and Native New Yorker
As an American I myself find the commercialization of the 9/11 event disgusting. It has become an abstract and not what it really was, the death of three thousand people.
9/11 is a sound bite and catch phrase....a battle cry from inept poured out to the those who knuckle their forheads to the whims of the day.

I am not a New Yorker, those were not my neighbors, not my family and not my friends. I will not disgrace their memory or myself by pretending they were anymore special to me then anyone who dies in the name of this country(take that as you will).

My sympathies.

Man we really coulda used that guy.

He is a personal hero of mine.

Here's a tribute to him...

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE4-3/sainis.html
On September 9, 2001, two suicide bombers posing as Algerian news reporters assassinated Ahmad Shah Mas’ud at his headquarters in Khwaja Bahauddin. Before detonating the explosive packed into a TV camera, the assassins repeatedly asked Mas’ud why he rejected Usama Bin Laden’s leadership and the International Islamic Jehad. A few days later on September 11, 2001 hijackers loyal from Al Qai’da carried out suicide attacks on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington DC. The apparent connection between these two events seems impossible to ignore. It seems as though just before launching the first war of this millennium, Usama Bin Laden eliminated his most immediate and dangerous adversary, and thus extinguished one of Afghanistan’s brightest stars.

To summarize, Ahmad Shah Mas’ud represents the violently independent spirit of the Afghan people. Like most Afghans, Mas’ud had a predisposition towards infighting. This otherwise mild discord was amplified in minor part by the circumstance of war, and in greatest part by the cynical manipulations and sinister machinations of the Pakistan Army, which tried to enslave the Afghan people via Pashtun proxies. Some liberals and intellectuals seek to defame Mas’ud as an opportunistic ethnic warlord, and yet even a casual glance shows that his actions pale into nothingness when compared to the acts of the Taliban.

With the passage of time, Mas’ud's minor transgressions will be forgotten and his military brilliance, his will to oppose the systematic murder of civilians in the name of faith, and most of all his commitment to the freedom of the Afghan people will remain the dominant motifs in his memory. The people of all civilized nations shall mourn his passing.

The Omaid Weekly carries the following words on its website:

In remembrance of, and tribute and respect to Afghanistan's greatest son,
True Hero of the Islamic world,
Heir to Hussein, Abu Muslim Khorassani, and Yaqub bin Laith, Patron saint of the future defenders of Aryana and Khorassan,
Prince of the successful Jihad against the Soviet Union,
And forever leader of Afghanistan's will for freedom and independence,
Ahmad Shah Mas’ud (rahmatullah alaih - God's blessings upon him)

The author feels such qualifications are unnecessary, in the difficult years that lie ahead; the mere words `Ahmed Shah Mas’ud’ shall come to mean praise in themselves.

Funny old world isn't it?

As ye reap, so shall ye sow.

So when the time of a REAL national crisis happens, most Americans will think Bush and his merry band of criminals are lying. Poetic justice if it weren't so damned tragic.

Less than half of my fellow countrymen believe the story to be true?

Source, please?

I beleive 19 Arabs hijacked 4 planes, flew 2 of them into the WTO, killed 3000 americans and others, crashed one plane in to the white house and lost control of the other sending it into a PA field.

No I don't beleive the jews did it, or that Bush knew about it and did nothing, nor do I beleive the BS stories that the Cia did it, or that it was a missile.


Pssst. It was the Pentagon, not the White House.

I beleive 19 Arabs hijacked 4 planes, flew 2 of them into the WTO, killed 3000 americans and others, crashed one plane in to the white house and lost control of the other sending it into a PA field.

No I don't beleive the jews did it, or that Bush knew about it and did nothing, nor do I beleive the BS stories that the Cia did it, or that it was a missile.


Pssst. It was the Pentagon, not the White House.

It was the Patriots fault! ......(Too much Metal Gear)

If the US Government had done it they would have invaded Iraq First instead of the nation who's largest crop is minefields and Heroin.

is the source still a figment of the OP's imagination?

Good.

Scepticism is evidence of strong reasoning ability.
agreed... and i am sceptic about this 50% claim.

I know I've heard a lot of people who think that the collapse of the towers looked controlled. It would make sense if the government purposely took them down though, if it looked like they were going to fall over, it's better for them to collapse straight down instead of falling sideways and knocking over however many other buildings.

I know I've heard a lot of people who think that the collapse of the towers looked controlled. It would make sense if the government purposely took them down though, if it looked like they were going to fall over, it's better for them to collapse straight down instead of falling sideways and knocking over however many other buildings.

Well..
1. The Damage was mostly in the middle, that's where the weakening occured. (Weakening not melting)
2. Modern Huge skyscapers are designed to Pancake on themselves so that even if there was a disaster that would cause it to collapse it wouldn't knock over quarter of the city.

Hmmm... And the Da Vinci Code is popular and affecting some people's beliefs as well. So much conspiracy! Why are so many people turning so extreme?

There are probably people who think that God did it.
Jerry Falwell Anyone?

So it is really a War on Tribbles? But they are so damn cute!
Yes. The War Against Tribbles, which is the true objective behind The War Against Terror. The US has pledged to seek out and destroy Tribbles in the world, wherever they may be.

There is still the issue of the gold in the basement. There are a lot of unanswered questions, especially the pentagon attack. They should release all the film from that day showing the 757 flying over the highway. The fact that they have not is suspicious.

My main question is, do you believe the story given as the end of factual discovery in this case? Less than half of my fellow countrymen believe the story to be true? What causes so many people to lose faith in their government's ability to conduct an investigation in a truthful and straightforward way? My personal feelings are these: The original story is partially true, there have been inconsistencies, these incosistencies need to be explained to appease a wide array of people that the truth has come out. For instance, a group of physicists/chemists from around the world have come to the conclusion that temperatures were not hot enough to melt the steel, and if they were the collapse would have been far different from the one that occurred. As for those who are looking for conspiracy buster sites, there's a great one from popular mehanics that dispells the most widely known "conspiracy theories."

An American and Native New Yorker

Less than half of your countrymen have a thinking brain that is qualified to even figure a fraction of the science out. But they sure can type can't they??

btw they are my countrymen too, I know universal sufferage is a good thing, but damn:headbang:

Source, please?

It was on a zogby poll, apparently:
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Less_than_half_of_Americans_satisfied_0523.html

Take that for what you will, I am trying to find the official poll from zogby.

Hear hear.

I'd also like to know where that "more than half" number comes from. What poll? What questions were asked? Etc.


http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/5/prweb388743.htm

Ask and you shall recieve

A link please?

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/5/prweb388743.htm

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/5/prweb388743.htm

Ask and you shall recieve

42% =/= a majority in supporting a cover up and I"m questing the group that commissioned it which is "9/11: Revealing the Truth, Reclaiming our Future" conference in Chicago.

I believe that 9/11 was allowed to happen.

Much like the bombing of Pearl Harbor was allowed to happen, it motivated a nation to war.

I have doubts as to wether or not an actual passenger jet hit the pentagon.

I also wonder if flight 93 wasnt actually shot down, instead of being forced down by its passengers.

I dont have any kind of proof for this, but the lack of ample wreckage and such makes me suspicious.

I highly fucking doubt Osama Bin Laden is in some remote part of the mountains near Pakistan. Considering his medical condition, there is absolutely no doubt that if he isnt dead, that he is in a medical facility in Pakistan, or Iran.

Even though the evidence points to what really happened. Also...I am skeptical of this number for the OP did not provide a source for the number.

http://http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/5/prweb388743.htm

I'm not making this up. It was a genuine question resulting from a Zogby poll with +/- 2.5 margin of error. I don't have time to check these boards constantly so I never saw your response until next day. Others (some on this thread) are famous for pouring out bile with no substantiation. I'm neither a die hard supporter of any political party, although I am a registered Republican. I did learn in OCS not to just accept others' versions of reality. There are irregularities in the official documentation that need to be explained. Also, who benefits from terrorism? If you have no questions left then perhaps you are myopic in your world view. The President is right on this point..."the world is a dangerous place." The source of that danger is up for debate.

http://http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/5/prweb388743.htm

Link needs fixing...

*snip*

I didn't say you were making it up.

However, when it "was commissioned to inform deliberations at the June 2~4 '9/11: Revealing the Truth, Reclaiming Our Future' conference in Chicago. Now who commissioned it? The article did not say unless it is this 911Truth.org group. If it is then I'm going to question the poll for it does fly in the face of overwhelming evidence against this poll.

Just who was polled? What were the questions asked? How were they phrased? That is why I do not believe in poll numbers.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2006/5/prweb388743.htm
For starters, I'd like to say that I'm amazed I'm on the same side as Corneliu here. Secondly, let's look at the scope of the poll.
SCOPE: The poll covered five related areas: 1) Iraq - do Americans think the Bush administration exploited 9/11 to attack Iraq? (44% do, 44% don't); 2) Cover up - did the government and its 9/11 Commission conceal or refuse to investigate evidence that contradicts their official story? (only 48% said no); 3) The collapse of WTC 7, which was not even mentioned by the 9/11 Commission and has seldom been reported in the media -were respondents aware of this collapse and, if so, did they think it should be investigated (only 52% knew about it, but over 70% of this group believe it should have been investigated); 4) new investigation of official complicity - do respondents think we need one? (only 48% said no); and 5) mass media - how do people rate its performance, including its coverage of alternative 9/11 theories, unanswered questions and inquiry issues? (43% rate it positively, 55% negatively).Question 1 doesn't deal with the factual questions of the 9/11 attacks at all (and that yes nunber ought to be way higher).

Question 2 seems to be the crux of the group's assertion, and yet they don't mention the "Yes" number, only that the "No" number didn't reach 50%. They also fail to account for the possibility that some of the people answering "Yes" may well have been considering the investigation covering up incompetence as opposed to conspiracy.

Question 3 sounds like a potential push poll question--not having the exact question in front of me I can't say for certain, but that's what it feels like given the way it's described.

Question 4 has the same problem as question 2--it deals with the crux of their argument and yet there's no "yes" number.

Question 5 deals with the press's performance, and there are any number of reasons to fault the press other than the lack of coverage of nutty conspiracy theories.

In short, it's precisely the kind of poll I'd expect to be commissioned by a group who wants to convince people there was more to the 9/11 attacks than the story given to the public.

Conspiracy theories dont work simply because they are too hard to pull off. The US couldnt even cover up tortures in an ultra high security building in the middle of an island or in the middle of a enemy foreign country. The simple fact is, there are always for example ex-guards who are now convienent store clerks that all eventually talk or pick one of a billion senarios that will almost always cause leaks. To insert explosives in WTCs would take teams of people and i assure you that one of a hundred people involved in the operation would get a consceince or a book deal. To pull off conspiracys of wreckage in the Pentagon would involve soo many people that it would be impossible in the long run to pull off. No sane government official would order such an operation unless he then had them all murdered after, cause human beings cant keep thier mouth shut reliably about anything. Especially when they can massivly benefit by fame and fortune if they talk.

I have doubts as to wether or not an actual passenger jet hit the pentagon.



I don't have any doubts. I talked to a DC rescue worker who was on duty that day (in the end they all were). He and his crew had to make pics of the burned bodies still strapped in airline seats before they had to remove them to the morgue. The pics taken that day by the rescue crews are available on request through the Freedom of Information Act.

Also here are some more pics taken by a guy from his car. http://criticalthrash.com/terror.html

What most people don't realize is just how massive the Pentagon is in size.

Please stop with the foolishness that a plane didn't hit the Pentagon.

Who the hell still believes that crackpot story?! Oh, that's right, it's the same chunk of the population who believe in Big Foot and the Risen Elvis.

Never underestimate the power of massive chumpery in action.

Count me in the less than half that believe Al qaeda operatives hijacked airplanes and crashed them into the world trade center buildings the pentagon and into a field on september 11th 2001.
......
Who hired them?

I beleive 19 Arabs hijacked 4 planes, flew 2 of them into the WTO, killed 3000 americans and others, crashed one plane in to the white house and lost control of the other sending it into a PA field.

No I don't beleive the jews did it, or that Bush knew about it and did nothing, nor do I beleive the BS stories that the Cia did it, or that it was a missile.

Good for you.

The question is, WHY do you believe it...?

Conspiracy theories dont work simply because they are too hard to pull off. The US couldnt even cover up tortures in an ultra high security building in the middle of an island or in the middle of a enemy foreign country. The simple fact is, there are always for example ex-guards who are now convienent store clerks that all eventually talk or pick one of a billion senarios that will almost always cause leaks. To insert explosives in WTCs would take teams of people and i assure you that one of a hundred people involved in the operation would get a consceince or a book deal. To pull off conspiracys of wreckage in the Pentagon would involve soo many people that it would be impossible in the long run to pull off. No sane government official would order such an operation unless he then had them all murdered after, cause human beings cant keep thier mouth shut reliably about anything. Especially when they can massivly benefit by fame and fortune if they talk.

Had them all murdered after.... hmmm, well, it's a good job no one died then...

Seriously, though - your assertion falls down for the exact reason you feel your argument is so good... everyone KNOWS conspiracy theories are not to be trusted... so it doesn't MATTER what gets leaked, you can always just dismiss it with: "silly conspiracy theorists..."

Also here are some more pics taken by a guy from his car. http://criticalthrash.com/terror.html


Wow! Some smoke!

I'm convinced by the smoke!

Maybe I'm missing something...

Why not send those ignorant liberal hippies to camp x-ray and rape them untill they "comply" and accept the fact that Saddam's terrorist hordes did it?
It's not illegal, nor is it inhumane...It's cuba, you know.

Oh god, the propaganda-o-meter just blew up in my eye! MY EYE!

x_- Bastard.

I'm not sure what I believe. I'm a baby-eating liberal pinko commie hippie bastard, so it seems I -should- believe right-out that Bush and his crew did the whole thing, but I'm not sure I do.

I'm somewhat sure they had something to do with it, either before it happened or after it happened, I think they made a deal with OBL to not catch him so long as he keeps people scared.

What I'm not entirely sure of is if they had a direct influence on the tower attacks themselves. Though at this point, does it really matter? We could never prove it, and if we had enough to prove it, the democrats in congress would be too pussy to do anything about it.

I dunno about anyone else, but he might as well have been driving the planes himself as co-pilot while Karl Rove was in the seat next to him. That's how much I already distrust and dislike his administration - I don't care if they're responsible or not, because they can't get any lower in my opinions than they already are. They're at the very, very bottom - past the barrel, digging to China, stuck in the middle of the earth, bottom.

Good for you.

The question is, WHY do you believe it...?


I think the question is "Are you stupid?" - they never hit the White House, they hit the Pentagon.

I think the question is "Are you stupid?" - they never hit the White House, they hit the Pentagon.

I'm willing to allow leeway... I once spent about 20 minutes arguing Constitution, but MEANING Declaration of Independence....

I'm willing to allow leeway... I once spent about 20 minutes arguing Constitution, but MEANING Declaration of Independence....

Hey, shit happens. Sometimes you gotta argue the Constitution when you mean DoI. Man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. =P

Hey, shit happens. Sometimes you gotta argue the Constitution when you mean DoI. Man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. =P

Yes... that's it... it was deliberate. :) I was 'compelled' to do it..

The silly thing is, my quotes were from the right document. I just kept arguing it was the other. *d'oh!*

Yes... that's it... it was deliberate. :) I was 'compelled' to do it..

The silly thing is, my quotes were from the right document. I just kept arguing it was the other. *d'oh!*

Now that's bad :D

You are forgiven Grave_n_idle :)

Now that's bad :D

You are forgiven Grave_n_idle :)

*genuflects*

I know, I know... unforgivable... :p

Seriously, though - your assertion falls down for the exact reason you feel your argument is so good... everyone KNOWS conspiracy theories are not to be trusted... so it doesn't MATTER what gets leaked, you can always just dismiss it with: "silly conspiracy theorists..."

OK lets go with 9/11 WAS a plot cooked up by bush and cronies(in 8 months) in order to attack the mid-east and seize the oil supplies

WTC hit by 2 remote control KC-135 tanker aircraft ......so thats 4 crew remote piloting the planes, 15 ppl to repaint the planes in AA and delta colours,25 people to actually prepare the planes and test out their remote control systems, 5 hijackers per plane to hijack the actual flights and fly them to a US airbase, so all the passengers and crew can be imprisoned/disposed of. and the scrapping/disposal of the planes themselves, this includes the plane that was aimed at the pentagon.
Another military team to prepare and fire the missile into the pentagon, along with techs to 'pop' the streetlights.

But it all falls over with flight 93, if it had been hijacked and was flying to a US airbase, the missile crew who were suppossed to fire a missile into a government landmark in its place would NOT of known of the passengers attempt to re-take the plane, and therefore would have fired their missile

Conspiracy theories are great, but there comes a time when you discover that there is life beyond your parents basement.

around half of people want creationalism taught in schools. My belief in the intelegence of my fellow man is not very high. Belief that it was a conspiracy goes down as a percentage as education goes up. so more education is in order. Eventually we'll get to the point not ever hair-brained idea is given acceptance.

It was Chuck Norris. He got bored so he decided to chopp the towers down so we'd randomly kick the shit out of Afghanistan.

It is interesting, given how little faith people have in the competence of governments at the best of times, how convinced they are that said governments are masters at covering up things.

isn't it obvious? the government appears incompetent so no one suspects to look deeper into their sinister plans, such as the one to destroy the afterlife

It was Chuck Norris. He got bored so he decided to chopp the towers down so we'd randomly kick the shit out of Afghanistan.

you took the words right out of my mouth:D

I find it funny how some people think that Bush is too retarded to pass the first grade, yet he has the intelligence required to pull off 9-11 without leaving behind any evidence. It's a contradiction.

Here's my take:
America does stuff that pisses off a bunch of nutjobs. They hijack planes(how hard would it have been? The flight crews were trained for the common, everyday "if you listen to us, this plane won't explode" terrorists) with box cutters. Remember, during this time, 9-11 hadn't happened yet. They crash their planes, almost full jet-fuel tanks and all, into their targets, except with #4, who's hijackers must have really pissed the passengers off. The resulting jet-fuel and office stuff fueled fires weakened the steel. The layer of stuff protecting the steel was destroyed by the huge blast.

Like the towers were disigned to do in the event of their demolition, they pancaked. Remember, when fuel is everywhere, fires don't stay in a corner. They move.

Why does the Pentagon look like it was hit by a bomb instead of a plane? Because it's so damn big. It has the record for the most square footage and it's only 5 stories tall. It's going to take something bigger than the biggest plane to completely destroy it.

Which percentile do I fit in?

This poll is based on a sampling of 1,200 people ..

read the damm questions they were asked .

http://www.911truth.org/images/911TruthZogbyPollFinalReport.htm


Hmmm not much new here is there ?


Narrative Summary

23. Some people have said that the Bush Administration exploited the September 11th attacks to justify the invasion of Iraq. Others say that Bush acted correctly by going into Iraq because Saddam Hussein supported terrorism. Who are you more likely to agree with?


Bush exploited Sept. 11th attacks
44%

Bush justified an attack on Iraq
44

Neither/Not sure
11





People are completely divided on whether they believe President Bush exploited the 9/11 attacks (44%) or justified an attack on Iraq (44%). Approximately one in ten (11%) is not sure.

The largest majorities who feel that Bush exploited Sept. 11th attacks are Democrats (69%), Hispanics (59%), and Jews (64%). Close to half or more of 18-29 year-olds, single adults, African Americans, and residents of the Central/Great Lakes, West, and large cities agree.

The largest majorities who feel that Bush justified an attack on Iraq are Republicans (72%) and residents of rural areas (59%). Approximately half of whites, 30-64 year-olds, Protestants, suburbanites, and married adults agree.

Men and women are both evenly divided.



24. Some people believe that the US government and its 9/11 Commission concealed or refused to investigate critical evidence that contradicts their official explanation of the September 11th attacks, saying there has been a cover-up. Others say that the 9/11 Commission was a bi-partisan group of honest and well-respected people and that there is no reason they would want to cover-up anything. Who are you more likely to agree with?


US government and 9/11 Commission are NOT covering up
48%

US government and 9/11 Commission are covering up
42

Not sure
10





Close to half (48%) agrees the U.S. government and 9/11 Commission are not covering up anything, yet nearly as many (42%) believe the government and 9/11 Commission are covering up. One in ten (10%) is unsure.



Both men and women and residents in each of the four regions are more likely to say the U.S. government and 9/11 Commission are not covering up anything. Majorities who agree include Republicans (64%), 50-64 year-olds, married adults, suburbanites (59%), Protestants, those with at least some college education, and people with annual household income of $50,000 or more (57%).

Majorities (50%-56%) of Democrats, 18-29 year-olds, Hispanics, single adults and those who are divorced/widowed/separated, residents of small cities, and adults with less education than a high school diploma believe the government and 9/11 Commission are covering up something. Nearly half of independent voters (48%) agree.



25. World Trade Center Building 7 is the 47-story skyscraper that was not hit by any planes during the September 11th attacks, but still totally collapsed later the same day. This collapse was not investigated by the 9/11 Commission. Are you aware of this skyscraper's collapse, and if so do you believe that the Commission should have also investigated it? Or do you believe that the Commission was right to only investigate the collapse of the buildings which were directly hit by airplanes?


I am not aware of World Trade Center Building 7's collapse
43%

I am aware of it and think the Commission should have investigated it
38

I am aware of it and think the Commission was right to investigate just the Twin Towers' collapse
14

Neither/Not sure
5





A plurality (43%) is not aware of World Trade Center Building 7's collapse. Nearly as many (38%), though, are aware of it and think the Commission should have investigated it. People are least likely to be aware of the building’s collapse and think the Commission was right to investigate just the Twin Towers' collapse (14%).

Pluralities in many sub-groups are not aware of World Trade Center Building 7's collapse. This includes Republicans and independents, adults 30 and older, whites, residents of the East and Central/Great Lakes regions, and women.

Majorities of Hispanics (56%) and 18-29 year-olds (52%) and pluralities of Democrats and Southerners are those most likely to be aware of World Trade Center Building 7's collapse and think the Commission should have investigated it.

Republicans (21%), college graduates (20%), people with household income of $75,000 or more (22%), and men (17%) are among the most likely to be aware of the building’s collapse and think the Commission was right to investigate just the Twin Towers' collapse.



26. Some people say that so many unanswered questions about 9/11 remain that Congress or an International Tribunal should re-investigate the attacks, including whether any US government officials consciously allowed or helped facilitate their success. Other people say the 9/11 attacks were thoroughly investigated and that any speculation about US government involvement is nonsense. Who are you more likely to agree with?


The attacks were thoroughly investigated
47%

Reinvestigate the attacks
45

Not sure
8





People are again closely divided, this time with a slight plurality (47%) saying the attacks were thoroughly investigated, while 45% feel the attacks should be reinvestigated. Nearly one in ten (8%) are not sure.

Republicans (70%) and people with annual household income of $75,000 or more (64%) are the most likely to say the attacks were thoroughly investigated. Other majorities who agree include up to 58% of whites, 50-64 year-olds, residents of the East and West, college graduates and those with some college education, and people with annual household income of $50,000-$74,999.

Majorities in several sub-groups feel the attacks should be reinvestigated. The most likely are Hispanics (67%) and African Americans (64%). Other majorities include up to 57% of Democrats and independents, 18-49 year-olds, residents of the Central/Great Lakes, high school graduates and those with less education. Between 56%-61% of people with household income less than $25,000 agree.

Men are more likely to agree attacks were thoroughly investigated (51% to 42%), while women are more likely to say the attacks should be reinvestigated (48% to 43%).



27. How would you rate the US media's performance regarding 9/11, including their coverage of victim families' unanswered questions, theories that challenged the official account, and how the attacks were investigated?


Good
33

Fair
36
Positive
43%

Poor
19
Negative
55

Not sure
3







A majority of adults (55%) rates the media’s performance as negative, including an overall plurality (36%) who rates it as "fair." In comparison, 43% give the media’s performance positive ratings, with most of these coming as "good" (33%).

Majorities in a few sub-groups give the media positive ratings. These include 50%-58% of African Americans, residents of small cities, divorced/widowed/separated adults, Progressives, those with less than a high school diploma, and people with household income less than $15,000 and $25,000-$34,999.

In all remaining sub-groups, majorities rate the media’s performance as negative. This includes approximately three-fifths of Republicans, conservatives, Hispanics, residents of the West, married adults, college graduates and those with some college education, and people with household income of $35,000-$74,999. People whose political ideology is Libertarian (74%) and very conservative (67%) are the most likely to give negative ratings.



Might as well have taken a poll that said a bullet to the head can cause death .

This poll is based on a sampling of 1,200 people ..

read the damm questions they were asked .

http://www.911truth.org/images/911TruthZogbyPollFinalReport.htm


Hmmm not much new here is there ?





Might as well have taken a poll that said a bullet to the head can cause death .

Here's a tip. Anything from a conspiracy theory website is to be questioned. Since we have already proven beyond a shadow of doubt that what really occured actually occured, anything said by wackjobs is ignored.

It is not compulsory to be "liberal" when one is a "whiner". One can be a whiner without being ANYthing else.

Indeed, whining in america is primarily a conservative phenomenon.

Rush Limbaugh is the biggest whiner in the country, and a great many AM talk stations have hosts which whine on his model.

Next in the whiney heirarchy has to be the christian fanatics, who constantly whinining about something.

Since we have already proven beyond a shadow of doubt that what really occured actually occured, anything said by wackjobs is ignored.



What really occured actually occurred... what a concept.

Did the line of reasoning look like:

X really occured, you can't prove that it didnt occur because it really occured, so its proven that it actually occured.

?

Indeed, whining in america is primarily a conservative phenomenon.

:rolleyes: ten all the whining from the left is just my imagination?

*snip*

And you are whining now.

:rolleyes: ten all the whining from the left is just my imagination?



And you are whining now.


Am I actually whining now because I'm really whining now?

At any rate, no liberal can match the infantile moanings of the AM talk-radio man-babies or Focus on the Family.

Am I actually whining now because I'm really whining now?

At any rate, no liberal can match the infantile moanings of the AM talk-radio man-babies or Focus on the Family.

As opposed to those moaning on Air America. Get off it New Granada. Everyone moans when they don't get there way. Its life.

As opposed to those moaning on Air America. Get off it New Granada. Everyone moans when they don't get there[sic] way. Its life.


I can understand the moaning of the whiners during the clinton government, but they've continued unabated through six years of their own party's political dominance.

What's air america? Is it one of the three or four conservative whinefests on the radio here? Is it one of the whiney political-opinion shows on the fox channel?

Is air america a christian maniac's organization like focus on the family and its crybaby cohorts?

Not familiar with it.

OK lets go with 9/11 WAS a plot cooked up by bush and cronies(in 8 months) in order to attack the mid-east and seize the oil supplies

WTC hit by 2 remote control KC-135 tanker aircraft ......so thats 4 crew remote piloting the planes, 15 ppl to repaint the planes in AA and delta colours,25 people to actually prepare the planes and test out their remote control systems, 5 hijackers per plane to hijack the actual flights and fly them to a US airbase, so all the passengers and crew can be imprisoned/disposed of. and the scrapping/disposal of the planes themselves, this includes the plane that was aimed at the pentagon.
Another military team to prepare and fire the missile into the pentagon, along with techs to 'pop' the streetlights.

But it all falls over with flight 93, if it had been hijacked and was flying to a US airbase, the missile crew who were suppossed to fire a missile into a government landmark in its place would NOT of known of the passengers attempt to re-take the plane, and therefore would have fired their missile

Conspiracy theories are great, but there comes a time when you discover that there is life beyond your parents basement.

First - I didn't endorse ANY of the conspiracy theories... so get over yourself. I just pointed out WHY conspiracy theories COULD succeed... based on 'what everyone knows'.

Second - you are something of a master of the strawman fallacy. You invent a scenario, attribute random facts and statistics to YOUR invention... then poke holes in it, to show why conspiracy is impossible.

I watched a documentary called 'loose change' recently (just google it, you can stream it off a few sites) and it pretty much convinced me the official story isn't true. I'm usually quite reasonable, so I don't know what's going on there:p

Liasia']I watched a documentary called 'loose change' recently (just google it, you can stream it off a few sites) and it pretty much convinced me the official story isn't true. I'm usually quite reasonable, so I don't know what's going on there:p

Then I suggest you go through the conspiracy of 9/11 threads and see the evidence that hammers and destroys the evidence used in Loose Change.

Liasia']I watched a documentary called 'loose change' recently (just google it, you can stream it off a few sites) and it pretty much convinced me the official story isn't true. I'm usually quite reasonable, so I don't know what's going on there:p

One should always be skeptical of ANYTHING one cannot personally verify... and even then, one should be willing to question what one knows.

To do less, is to be a pawn.

If you search, I talked about about how that film is wrong.

three posts saying 'loose change is crap'. hmmm

One should always be skeptical of ANYTHING one cannot personally verify... and even then, one should be willing to question what one knows.

To do less, is to be a pawn.

How true .

I know what I watched on 9/11 and I know what I have seen in the days after..everything else was open for questions .

I have long been satisfied as to what happened and the only " cover up " I suspect is the one by those looking to cover their own assets ..by not catching or preventing what happened ..like able danger etc.

so It can be said that I " suspect the government of a cover up "

take the line out of context and you can use it to claim I suspect the government is lying about 9 /11 .

Then have a party with your conspiracy theory du juor and use my quote, and say even " he aggrees something is being covered up by the government " .

So One should always be skeptical of ANYTHING one cannot personally verify... and even then, one should be willing to question what one knows.

To do less, is to be a pawn

this becomes a truism .