NationStates Jolt Archive

I, and all like minded people, will go buy up all the land next to the border and put up a bunch of signs that say "Welcome to America! Enjoy your stay!" and, since it's private property, I can just say,"Oh, no officer, this is my cousin just comin' to visit for a couple of weeks. Go away now."

Every now and then I will need my "cousin" to go to the store for me. It will take him about 8 hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week to do that.

You ain't harboring illegals if it's family.

Zomg Traitor Anti-american Lawbreaker Spit On Our Flag!

I, and all like minded people, will go buy up all the land next to the border and put up a bunch of signs that say "Welcome to America! Enjoy your stay!" and, since it's private property, I can just say,"Oh, no officer, this is my cousin just comin' to visit for a couple of weeks. Go away now."

Every now and then I will need my "cousin" to go to the store for me. It will take him about 8 hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week to do that.

You ain't harboring illegals if it's family.


lol it could work. I say go for it!

i believe the border is government land, but you can buy property next to the border. but to get to your property they are still going to have to cross US government land.

and i hope your just being silly because your idea just plane sucks

I, and all like minded people, will go buy up all the land next to the border and put up a bunch of signs that say "Welcome to America! Enjoy your stay!" and, since it's private property, I can just say,"Oh, no officer, this is my cousin just comin' to visit for a couple of weeks. Go away now."

Every now and then I will need my "cousin" to go to the store for me. It will take him about 8 hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week to do that.

You ain't harboring illegals if it's family.

If you like Mexicans so much, why don't you just move to Mexico?

For every illegal you harbor - which is still a crime even if they're related to you (or you pretend they are) - I'll deport three. How's that?

and i hope your just being silly because your idea just plane sucks

No, I'm not being silly. I'm merely one of the last few remaining people left in this country who have the sense to realise that someone coming over here to work and feed their family is *NOT* a criminal and should be welcomed with open arms and with the words carved into the Statue of Liberty.

Even if they never gain citizenship or file the paperwork and then go back home to watch their children starve for a year while that paperwork is processed.

Let 'em come. Let 'em work. Let 'em send the money back to their kids.

Maybe I'm one of those silly nutjobs who doesn't only care about Americans.

Maybe I'm one of those crazy people who do not see border jumpers as a threat to the American way of life.

Maybe I'm the only person in the country who remembers that the real threats to our nation, those 9/11 hijackers and whatnot, were here LEGALLY and did everything they did LEGALLY.

We don't care about finding OBL anymore, but we're fully prepared to line up untrained vigilantes to patrol fences, build walls, and keep America safe from those dangerous Mexicans.

You call me silly? Bah.

If you like Mexicans so much, why don't you just move to Mexico?

Oh ... the "if you like it so much, why don't you marry it" routine ... how .... kindergarten.

For every illegal you harbor - which is still a crime even if they're related to you (or you pretend they are) - I'll deport three. How's that?

You a judge? If not, you don't have the power to deport anything. If you are, then you have the power to turn a blind eye to someone feeding their kids.

If you don't turn that blind eye, I hope you're in a state where judges are elected and you never sit on the bench again.

I, and all like minded people, will go buy up all the land next to the border and put up a bunch of signs that say "Welcome to America! Enjoy your stay!" and, since it's private property, I can just say,"Oh, no officer, this is my cousin just comin' to visit for a couple of weeks. Go away now."

Every now and then I will need my "cousin" to go to the store for me. It will take him about 8 hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week to do that.

You ain't harboring illegals if it's family.go ahead. will watch out on the news when they arrest you all for immigration fraud as well as harboring Illegals.

after all, you're assuming the government uses logic.

Oh ... the "if you like it so much, why don't you marry it" routine ... how .... kindergarten.

Well I just thought it seemed quite selfish for all the millions of Americans who obviously don't want more Mexicans in their country.

For every illegal you harbor - which is still a crime even if they're related to you (or you pretend they are) - I'll deport three. How's that?

1 - how are you going about deporting anyone? Are you the US government?

2 - assuming you can deport people as you claim, are you seriously suggesting you're NOT the kind of person who'll deport "illegals" as often as you possibly can anyway? Cuz this is an empty threat really. "I'll do what I'd do no matter what!"

Oh ... the "if you like it so much, why don't you marry it" routine ... how .... kindergarten.
Funny that, just heard on the news that here in Hawaii, 4 people are being arrested for Marriage Fraud for a Legal Alien to gain citizenship.

Well I just thought it seemed quite selfish for all the millions of Americans who obviously don't want more Mexicans in their country.

So you're admitting it's not about legal vs illegal immigration, but rather letting Mexicans into the country or not. Good to know, you see some people on this board think I'm just hallucinating people like you.

Horray loopholes!

Well I just thought it seemed quite selfish for all the millions of Americans who obviously don't want more Mexicans in their country.

Yes ... and I've heard their reasons ... they range everywhere from "THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!" coming from a toothless meth-head who hasn't had a job in 6 years to "FUCKIN' SPICS STINK UP THE PLACE" from neo-nazi skinheads who look like they haven't bathed in months.

One good solid reason may change my mind. I've yet to see it.

Funny that, just heard on the news that here in Hawaii, 4 people are being arrested for Marriage Fraud for a Legal Alien to gain citizenship.

Ah no ... this won't be marriage fraud and it won't be citizenship fraud. Just a friendly visit for a little while. Nothing wrong with that. Happens all the time.

Hell, I go to Mexico all the time just for a couple of days to goof around and buy Tequila a lot cheaper than I get it here. Sometimes I just want a nice Cuban cigar (which is unavailable in the US).

Nobody bothers me about that. Why should we bother them for coming here for a couple of weeks to dig a ditch or haul some garbage?

I'd rather eat them with poached eggs.

We need to just fucking invade Mexico and assimilate the damn thing into the union, adding like ten more states with the sheer size of it and fixing that immigration problem. Why cross the border of Texas to enter America when you could just stay where you are and let America come to you? =P

We need to just fucking invade Mexico and assimilate the damn thing into the union, adding like ten more states with the sheer size of it and fixing that immigration problem. Why cross the border of Texas to enter America when you could just stay where you are and let America come to you? =P

Also a surprisingly acceptable thing to me. Well ... without the invasion ... why not just ask them if they'd like to join us? No need to invade. Hell, they may do it willingly.

Would certainly give us a lot more bodies to throw over to Iraq.

What I always find funny is that Americans (and others in that position in various countries) enjoy their position by sheer accident of their birth, and have done nothing to earn or deserve it.

In fact, as is the case in many countries, alot of people who have the right only by birth don't really deserve to waste the right to work there because they have no intention of getting a job.

They haven't done anything to get that right. They don't do anything with it. They have it because of something they have no control over.

Surely somebody who is willing to illegally enter the US, at their own peril, and work shitty jobs to scrape a living for their family is more deserving of the right to work than those I have described above?

We need to just fucking invade Mexico and assimilate the damn thing into the union, adding like ten more states with the sheer size of it and fixing that immigration problem. Why cross the border of Texas to enter America when you could just stay where you are and let America come to you? =P
Ahhh, you see, no.

The mexicans would make a giant trojan pinyata, take it to the boarder, kill the guards, take over america.

Do you really want that?

Also a surprisingly acceptable thing to me. Well ... without the invasion ... why not just ask them if they'd like to join us? No need to invade. Hell, they may do it willingly.

Would certainly give us a lot more bodies to throw over to Iraq.
God damn you're right! *makes a phone call*

Hehe... You've got the knee-jerk xenophobes all worked up, Keruvalia. My, this thread is entertaining. :D

I, and all like minded people, will go buy up all the land next to the border and put up a bunch of signs that say "Welcome to America! Enjoy your stay!" and, since it's private property, I can just say,"Oh, no officer, this is my cousin just comin' to visit for a couple of weeks. Go away now."

Every now and then I will need my "cousin" to go to the store for me. It will take him about 8 hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week to do that.

You ain't harboring illegals if it's family.
That's cool. Will you do me a favor, though? Can you pay for the sewers, the extra cops, the roads, the ER workers, the classrooms, the teachers, the doctors, the infrastructure maintenance, the jail space, the courts, the judges and all the other resources needed to take care of these people while they're here?

Maybe I'm the only person in the country who remembers that the real threats to our nation, those 9/11 hijackers and whatnot, were here LEGALLY and did everything they did LEGALLY.

Exactly. The only solution is to deport everyone who's currently in the US legally (especially the Americans).

It's the only way to fight those godless-pinko-commie-islamofacist-scary-terroristxors!!!1!! Anyone who objects must hate America. :eek:

That's cool. Will you do me a favor, though? Can you pay for the sewers, the extra cops, the roads, the ER workers, the classrooms, the teachers, the doctors, the infrastructure maintenance, the jail space, the courts, the judges and all the other resources needed to take care of these people while they're here?
Can you say "tax the rich"?!

can you buy some airports too? cuz then you can let me in illegally to 'visit' :D I think it's a great idea. pretty unfeasible but a great way to stick two fingers up at immigration and xenophobes.

Hehe... You've got the knee-jerk xenophobes all worked up, Keruvalia. My, this thread is entertaining. :D

That's surprisingly not difficult during an election season. ;)

can you buy some airports too? cuz then you can let me in illegally to 'visit' :D I think it's a great idea. pretty unfeasible but a great way to stick two fingers up at immigration and xenophobes.

I like it! Private airports. I'll add it to the list. Woo!

Can you say "tax the rich"?!
I say tax them poor folk, they got enough as it is.

Can you say "tax the rich"?!

And if they were allowed to work legally the Mexican workers would all be paying taxes too.

I, and all like minded people, will go buy up all the land next to the border and put up a bunch of signs that say "Welcome to America! Enjoy your stay!" and, since it's private property, I can just say,"Oh, no officer, this is my cousin just comin' to visit for a couple of weeks. Go away now."

Every now and then I will need my "cousin" to go to the store for me. It will take him about 8 hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week to do that.

You ain't harboring illegals if it's family.

Actually, if a BPS sees it you and your friends could be arrested. Even if it's on private property because it's a crime if he sees it he can arrest them regardless. The SC plain view doctrine and the exigent circumstances doctrine come to mind.

It always amazes me that a nation which was BUILT on immigration and where every other person you meet describes themselves as an Italian/American, Polish/American, Irish/American, African/American, German/American (the list is endless) can now start moaning about people wanting to live in their country. Ever look up the word IRONY?

Actually, if a BPS sees it you and your friends could be arrested. Even if it's on private property because it's a crime if he sees it he can arrest them regardless. The SC plain view doctrine and the exigent circumstances doctrine come to mind.

Bah ... all meaningless. You forget I'm a Jew. We have lawyers ... powerful, world controlling lawyers.

-snip-

yeah :rolleyes: you make alot of sense. instead of promoting mexicans to fix their country lets just say "come here we will put you on welfare and give you free medical care while not giving our own citizens the free health care and charging them higher tax to keep you on welfare"

oh and we will still allow you to treat your illegal immigrants like crap but we are just fine with taking the illegal immigrants here with open arms

I say tax them poor folk, they got enough as it is.
Yeah, those repubies are giving the poor a free ride :mad:

Ever look up the word IRONY?

YES! That's when your house is burned down by stress relief candles.

Can you say "tax the rich"?!
Yes! ;)

And if I'm rich, I can also say, "Move to Austrailia." :p

And if I'm poor and I want to go to college and get a degree in engineering or law or medicine I can say, "Go to school in London and practice there." :p

And if I'm trying to set up an aerospace firm that will provide jobs to hundreds of people and create business opportunities for countless others I can say, "Set up shop in India and use parts manufactured in China."

Bah ... all meaningless. You forget I'm a Jew. We have lawyers ... powerful, world controlling lawyers.
And Jon Stewart.

yeah :rolleyes: you make alot of sense. instead of promoting mexicans to fix their country lets just say "come here we will put you on welfare and give you free medical care while not giving our own citizens the free health care and charging them higher tax to keep you on welfare"

oh and we will still allow you to treat your illegal immigrants like crap but we are just fine with taking the illegal immigrants here with open arms

All meaningless. Americans, especially flag-waving, Jesus fearing, red-blooded Americans believe it's our job to police the world since we're the biggest, baddest, and have the most bombs.

Now ... we can either use that power to force other nations to better themselves (but only if they have oil we can steal in exchange) ...

OR

We can stop cowering behind fences and walls and actually start *acting* like the biggest and baddest and say, "Sure! Come on in! Glad to have you! We'll put on coffee!"

Take your pick.

My guess is, though, that you prefer to cower behind a wall.

And if they were allowed to work legally the Mexican workers would all be paying taxes too.
Funny, I thought hey were allowed to work legally as long as they came here legally. in fact, is that... No... It can't be. There are actually three Mexicans in the room with me now all working here legally! :eek: Would you imagine that! :confused:

And Jon Stewart.

He has magical powers.

Yes! ;)

And if I'm rich, I can also say, "Move to Austrailia." :p

And if I'm poor and I want to go to college and get a degree in engineering or law or medicine I can say, "Go to school in London and practice there." :p

And if I'm trying to set up an aerospace firm that will provide jobs to hundreds of people and create business opportunities for countless others I can say, "Set up shop in India and use parts manufactured in China."
Can you say "WALMART"?!

Funny, I thought hey were allowed to work legally as long as they came here legally.

Yes ... if they can afford to wait the year it takes to get a work visa.

He has magical powers.
He can fly, you know.

It always amazes me that a nation which was BUILT on immigration and where every other person you meet describes themselves as an Italian/American, Polish/American, Irish/American, African/American, German/American (the list is endless) can now start moaning about people wanting to live in their country. Ever look up the word IRONY?
It always amazes me how people who have completely bankrupt ideas resort to distorting the ideas of others by name calling and setting up strawman falicies. No one is saying end immigration. In fact most people are calling for easier legal immigration. They just want the border chaos to end.

-snip-

yeah:rolleyes:

moeny has to come from somewhere. it has to be backed by something. the government doesnt just create as much as is needed. illegal immigrants get free healthcare because there is no way of charging them. many are on welfare. and yet none of them pay income tax.

you can use your "you must be a god fearing republican" arguemnet on every situation someone doesnt agree with you. but it doesnt really help your arguement much.

do you understand what sovereign means?

do you think the United States will still be a sovereign nation if it let anyone in and had completely open borders?

while your socialist attitude sounds good in theory, it doesnt work in the real world

It always amazes me how people who have completely bankrupt ideas resort to distorting the ideas of others by name calling and setting up strawman falicies. No one is saying end immigration. In fact most people are calling for easier legal immigration. They just want the border chaos to end.


OH NOEESSS!!!!111!!!!!!11111!!! Shhh dont tel them our secrit.!!!!!!!!!11!!!1

No, I'm not being silly. I'm merely one of the last few remaining people left in this country who have the sense to realise that someone coming over here to work and feed their family is *NOT* a criminal and should be welcomed with open arms and with the words carved into the Statue of Liberty.

Even if they never gain citizenship or file the paperwork and then go back home to watch their children starve for a year while that paperwork is processed.

Let 'em come. Let 'em work. Let 'em send the money back to their kids.

Maybe I'm one of those silly nutjobs who doesn't only care about Americans.

Maybe I'm one of those crazy people who do not see border jumpers as a threat to the American way of life.

Maybe I'm the only person in the country who remembers that the real threats to our nation, those 9/11 hijackers and whatnot, were here LEGALLY and did everything they did LEGALLY.

We don't care about finding OBL anymore, but we're fully prepared to line up untrained vigilantes to patrol fences, build walls, and keep America safe from those dangerous Mexicans.

You call me silly? Bah.

Amen brother! :p

Were we seperated at birth? I mean wow...I am on the same level of thought with you there.

Yes ... if they can afford to wait the year it takes to get a work visa.
I have an idea, how about we lock donw the border, set up enough security to slow illegal immigration to a trickle and start seriously punishing employers that hire illegal immigrants. Then we can set up employment offices at teh border. They can even be run by Mexico so that we don't have to use our tax dollars. Mexicans wishing to work in the US can then reigster, do simple health and criminal checks and be given temp worker status in a couple days with an actual destination and a job to go to. That way it costs them next to nothing to get in and very little time and employers will not have to hire people illegally. All teh taxes get paid, everythings above board. We know who's coming here and if we catch someone coming in illegally we can be pretty damn sure there not coming here to work. How's that? :)

do you think the United States will still be a sovereign nation if it let anyone in and had completely open borders?


Yes. Yes I do.

I know this because I understand that we are a nation of ideals and ideas, not of symbols and borders.

I'm not sure why you've yet to catch on to that fact, but anyone who's taken a freshman level civics course understands it.

If we completely opened our borders, we would be just fine. Why do you live in fear? What are you afraid of?

I, and all like minded people, will go buy up all the land next to the border and put up a bunch of signs that say "Welcome to America! Enjoy your stay!" and, since it's private property, I can just say,"Oh, no officer, this is my cousin just comin' to visit for a couple of weeks. Go away now."

Every now and then I will need my "cousin" to go to the store for me. It will take him about 8 hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week to do that.

You ain't harboring illegals if it's family.

How about we buy some land on the Mexican side of the border, put up signs saying "Welcome the the United States" and trick the Mexicans into staying in their own country?? :)

I have an idea, how about we lock donw the border, set up enough security to slow illegal immigration to a trickle and start seriously punishing employers that hire illegal immigrants. Then we can set up employment offices at teh border. They can even be run by Mexico so that we don't have to use our tax dollars. Mexicans wishing to work in the US can then reigster, do simple health and criminal checks and be given temp worker status in a couple days with an actual destination and a job to go to. That way it costs them next to nothing to get in and very little time and employers will not have to hire people illegally. All teh taxes get paid, everythings above board. We know who's coming here and if we catch someone coming in illegally we can be pretty damn sure there not coming here to work. How's that? :)
Although I am not American, that is by far the more reasonable approach.

They can even be run by Mexico so that we don't have to use our tax dollars. Mexicans wishing to work in the US can then reigster, do simple health and criminal checks and be given temp worker status in a couple days with an actual destination and a job to go to.

That, actually, isn't such a bad idea either. Make it easier to legally come here.

Nice work, Dan.

How about we buy some land on the Mexican side of the border, put up signs saying "Welcome the the United States" and trick the Mexicans into staying in their own country?? :)

ROFL!

Funny, I thought hey were allowed to work legally as long as they came here legally. in fact, is that... No... It can't be. There are actually three Mexicans in the room with me now all working here legally! :eek: Would you imagine that! :confused:

As the entire thread was about helping illegal immigrants to enter and work in America I thought it was fairly clear that I would be refering to illegal Mexican workers. If you're context blind then I'll try to be clearer in future.

That, actually, isn't such a bad idea either. Make it easier to legally come here.

Nice work, Dan.
If you look at the platform of most people labeled "anti immigrant" you'll see that that's all that most of them are asking for. The border situation is chaos. Thousands of people entering every day and we have no idea who they are or why they came here. In fact, I listen to John and Ken often and they are constantly rambling about the border and all teh open border crowd just calls them racists without actually speaking to the arguments that they have. Yesterday they were asked point blank what they would want for teh 12 million illegal immigrants already here if they got their wish and the border was tightened and secured. They said they'd give them amnesty.

Everyone wh is concerned about border security isn't some hillbilly redneck. Most just want border security and control over the flow so that we know who's here and why.

As the entire thread was about helping illegal immigrants to enter and work in America I thought it was fairly clear that I would be refering to illegal Mexican workers. If you're context blind then I'll try to be clearer in future.
Then why'd you mention their race?

Yes. Yes I do.

I know this because I understand that we are a nation of ideals and ideas, not of symbols and borders.

I'm not sure why you've yet to catch on to that fact, but anyone who's taken a freshman level civics course understands it.

If we completely opened our borders, we would be just fine. Why do you live in fear? What are you afraid of?

united states has ideals and ideas but that has nothing to do with the border. it is the fact that we can keep a border that makes us a sovereign nation. the fact that the government can keep control. if we have open borders there is no way the government will be able to control the nation. there is nothing stopping the new people freely walking over the border to set up their own government, their own cities. (there are places here already the government doesnt have much control of with a majority illegal population living in their own community within the united states border)

its always about fear with you people isnt it?

you dont agree with me, you must fear the idea. you must be living in fear if you dont agree with what im saying.

maybe its you living in fear of a closed border.

do you even live near the border?

near a large illegal immigrant population?

Although I am not American, that is by far the more reasonable approach.

ACtually, another thing I'd like to see added would be a requirement that Americans get first shot at whatever jobs are available, then the LEGAL workers can get it.

*snip*
And I assume the consequent rise in efficiency this would bring to the taxation and welfare systems.

If you like Mexicans so much, why don't you just move to Mexico?

Why should he bother applying for citizenship when he can live next door and visit whenever he likes? And have a moderately less corrupt government to boot.

ACtually, another thing I'd like to see added would be a requirement that Americans get first shot at whatever jobs are available, then the LEGAL workers can get it.
If by Americans you mean all legal citizens, I concur. I am not sure if a legal worker differs, but I assume it does. Then I agree. Your firms should also give you priority over outsourcing labour.

I, and all like minded people, will go buy up all the land next to the border and put up a bunch of signs that say "Welcome to America! Enjoy your stay!" and, since it's private property, I can just say,"Oh, no officer, this is my cousin just comin' to visit for a couple of weeks. Go away now."

Every now and then I will need my "cousin" to go to the store for me. It will take him about 8 hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week to do that.

You ain't harboring illegals if it's family.


Generally people that actually own land and pay taxes on it dont feel the way you're claiming you do.

Maybe it would be more realistic for you to put the same effort into becoming a social worker to really help these people, who are only trying to feed their families, come here legally, enjoy the benefits of being here legally, have some security, better pay and respect and be RESPONSIBLE and identifiable.
There are legal and reasonable ways to help these people.

do you even live near the border?

near a large illegal immigrant population?

Why yes ... as a matter of fact ... I do.

Houston.

Not just Mexican immigrants coming here, but a lot of Vietnamese "illegals" as well coming in through the port.

Strangely enough, Houston hasn't collapsed because of it.

Neither will the United States.

Generally people that actually own land and pay taxes on it dont feel the way you're claiming you do.

I do own land and do pay taxes on it.

Isn't it funny how all the people that push for less restriction on the market and more of a free, capitalist market, with lots of competition, are the same ones against the mexicans comming here, working for cheap, providing for competition against americans?

do you understand what sovereign means?

do you think the United States will still be a sovereign nation if it let anyone in and had completely open borders?

yes. based on your question, i strongly suspect that you don't know what the word 'sovereign' means though.

Then why'd you mention their race?

Because we're talking about Mexico? :confused:

Because we're talking about Mexico? :confused:
Aren't Mexicans white in any case? Latino is not a race.

Why yes ... as a matter of fact ... I do.

Houston.

Not just Mexican immigrants coming here, but a lot of Vietnamese "illegals" as well coming in through the port.

Strangely enough, Houston hasn't collapsed because of it.

Neither will the United States.
LA's certainly starting to strain under the weight of it.

I say we get rid of all the borders and stupid nationalistic laws everywhere in the hemisphere. If you're from the US and want to buy some beach side property in Oaxaca (which you can't do now) and turn it into a bed and breakfast or surfer hangout, you should be able to. If you're from Costa Rica and want to work in said bed and breakfast (which you can't now), you should be able to. If you're from Argentina and are travelling by road to visit relatives in the Yukon, you shouldn't have to be hassled and harassed at every border, you should just be able to pack your things and go.

Sure, economies will have to be synchronized at least a bit; some laws homologated, and a few other things arranged. But at least we should be trying to move towards that goal. Not necessarily under one government, but a tighter continental unity.

Isn't it funny how all the people that push for less restriction on the market and more of a free, capitalist market, with lots of competition, are the same ones against the mexicans comming here, working for cheap, providing for competition against americans?

Yes. Yes it is funny. Sad and funny.

LA's certainly starting to strain under the weight of it.

Bah ... who cares what happens to "Hollyweird" ;)

*snip
Sort of like the EU, but for North and South America? Sounds good.

Would certainly give us a lot more bodies to throw over to Iraq.

it worked for getting puerto ricans citizenship

I do own land and do pay taxes on it.

I did say "generally"- you'd likely say you did wether you did or didnt.

I guess you didnt like the idea of actually helping them come here legally and having both rights and responsiblities, instead of encouraging them to live a fraud and hiding in your basement when they arent working their asses off.

Because we're talking about Mexico? :confused:
No, that's not why. You were making a somewhat transparent appeal to racism. Your post was an attempt to label anyone who is in favor of tighter border security a racist because it is easier for you to call names than to deal with the real issues that confont communities, especially border communities, with regards to the open border problems. It's your whole strategy and it's no different than the Bush admin's strategy of dealing with people opposed to the war in Iraq by calling them traitors rather than confront the real issues invoved.

yes. based on your question, i strongly suspect that you don't know what the word 'sovereign' means though.

sovereign

1 a : one possessing or held to possess sovereignty b : one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere c : an acknowledged leader


sovereignty
1 obsolete : supreme excellence or an example of it
2 a : supreme power especially over a body politic b : freedom from external control

its in the dictionary, if the borders are completely open there is nothing that stops the illegals from having their own communities and their own cities and governments. thus the United States governmet will not have (soveriegn definition 1b) supreme authority within a limited sphere

ACtually, another thing I'd like to see added would be a requirement that Americans get first shot at whatever jobs are available, then the LEGAL workers can get it.

But of course you have no problem with immigrants.....

Pot, this is kettle....oh, how do you do..........

I guess you didnt like the idea of actually helping them come here legally and having both rights and responsiblities, instead of encouraging them to live a fraud and hiding in your basement when they arent working their asses off.

Who said anything about hiding in a basement? I don't have a basement. People in the south rarely have basements.

I love the idea of having them come here legally, but to me, that means simply coming here. Just like the Pilgrims, who got nobody's permission.

Just come on over. Perfectly legal.

Bah ... who cares what happens to "Hollyweird" ;)
Strangely enough, I do.

Sort of like the EU, but for North and South America? Sounds good.


God dammit! that was my idea...like 5 months ago!

there is nothing that stops the illegals from having their own communities and their own cities and governments. thus the United States governmet will not have (soveriegn definition 1b) supreme authority within a limited sphere

Ummm ... there is no "supreme authority" in the United States except the Constitution of the United States, which already prevents immigrants from forming their own countries within our borders.

So, once again, completely open borders is in no way a threat to our soveriegnty.

Strangely enough, I do.

Yeah ... hence the ;)

ACtually, another thing I'd like to see added would be a requirement that Americans get first shot at whatever jobs are available, then the LEGAL workers can get it.
I wouldn't. The incentive would already be there to hire Americans first because of proximity, but if you can't compete for a job with a Mexican than you probably don't deserve that job. Think about it. You've got a roofing contractor down the street. If he would rather go to Mexico for labor than hire you for the same money, because foriegn workers woudl get all the same wages and protections, then you are either a lazy asshole or an idiot.

i say large jurassic park style electric fence (50,000 volts sucka!) with armed guards at the top with an alligator moat.

that'll keep em out for about a week or two.

I wouldn't. The incentive would already be there to hire Americans first because of proximity, but if you can't compete for a job with a Mexican than you probably don't deserve that job. Think about it. You've got a roofing contractor down the street. If he would rather go to Mexico for labor than hire you for the same money, because foriegn workers woudl get all the same wages and protections, then you are either a lazy asshole or an idiot.

Amen. Its called fair competition. It works in the labour market the same as in the business world. Here in the UK there has been a huge outcry about Polish construction workers coming to Britain and "taking our jobs". If you can't compete for the same money then you don't deserve the job.

Who said anything about hiding in a basement? I don't have a basement. People in the south rarely have basements.

I love the idea of having them come here legally, but to me, that means simply coming here. Just like the Pilgrims, who got nobody's permission.

Just come on over. Perfectly legal.


Do they have to get any ID or we just trust whatever they say when they go to get a driver's license?
Or show up at the hospital?
Or go to our schools?

Credit cards, loans any type of permits?.....

i say large jurassic park style electric fence (50,000 volts sucka!) with armed guards at the top with an alligator moat.

that'll keep em out for about a week or two.


Yeah, it will keep em out until the big tropical storm comes, and the fat guy knocks out the security system and all. Then we have velociraptors and mexicans everywhere!

God dammit! that was my idea...like 5 months ago!
Be wary then of the EU's problems if you want to get it right. It's not an easy process.

Amen. Its called fair competition. It works in the labour market the same as in the business world. Here in the UK there has been a huge outcry about Polish construction workers coming to Britain and "taking our jobs". If you can't compete for the same money then you don't deserve the job.
I have no problem with labor competition. I just want to feel like I know my government is in control of our borders. I am not comfortable with the fact that 500,000 people a year hop our borders. That's more than 100,000 people a day. If we can lock that down and then employ a streamlined system for quick, legal immigration for employment purposes then I'm a happy camper. It would mean that the incentive is there to hire American citizens or legal immigrants first and if no American is willing to do the work you are offering at the price you are offering it then you have an easy way to get legal labor, all above board, from people looking to work here in Mexico, or any other country for that matter.

Do they have to get any ID or we just trust whatever they say when they go to get a driver's license?

Birth certificate is always a handy thing to have.

Or show up at the hospital?

Are you saying sick or injured people should be turned away based on their nationality?

Or go to our schools?

Birth certificate and shots records are all I needed to enroll all 4 of my kids into school.

Credit cards, loans any type of permits?.....

Now you're getting into the realm of private companies. Credit Card companies may decline anyone for any reason, specified or not.

Be wary then of the EU's problems if you want to get it right. It's not an easy process.

It would be worth all the work though.

I have no problem with labor competition. I just want to feel like I know my government is in control of our borders. I am not comfortable with the fact that 500,000 people a year hop our borders. That's more than 100,000 people a day. If we can lock that down and then employ a streamlined system for quick, legal immigration for employment purposes then I'm a happy camper. It would mean that the incentive is there to hire American citizens or legal immigrants first and if no American is willing to do the work you are offering at the price you are offering it then you have an easy way to get legal labor, all above board, from people looking to work here in Mexico, or any other country for that matter.

They only immigrate here 5 days a year?:p

I have no problem with labor competition. I just want to feel like I know my government is in control of our borders. I am not comfortable with the fact that 500,000 people a year hop our borders. That's more than 100,000 people a day. If we can lock that down and then employ a streamlined system for quick, legal immigration for employment purposes then I'm a happy camper. It would mean that the incentive is there to hire American citizens or legal immigrants first and if no American is willing to do the work you are offering at the price you are offering it then you have an easy way to get legal labor, all above board, from people looking to work here in Mexico, or any other country for that matter.

Sounds like a very sensible position. The problem is that that is not what is happening. It seems Bush is trying to lock down the borders with troops who arn't trained to do the job without addressing the issue of making legal immigration more streamlined.

if the borders are completely open there is nothing that stops the illegals from having their own communities and their own cities and governments. thus the United States governmet will not have (soveriegn definition 1b) supreme authority within a limited sphere

four problems.

firstly, if the borders are open, then there aren't any 'illegals'. that's just definitional.

which leads to the second problem - your statement then has to become "...there is nothing that stops people from having their own communities and their own cities and governments, thus the US government will not be sovereign." but it is already the case that people can form their own communities and incorporate local governments, which means that your reasoning says that the US is already not a sovereign entity. which is, of course, silly.

third, there is nothing in the idea of open borders that necessitates allowing immigrants and migrant workers an immediate right to vote. i happen to think that they ought get such, at least at the local level after establishing residency, but it is certainly possible (likely, even) that it could be otherwise.

and lastly, if the sovereign entity decides to open it's borders, it is still the thing deciding. the only way that opening the borders wouldn't be an exercise of sovereignty is if the borders were forcibly opened by an outside force, such as another sovereign entity after a bit of conquest.

It would be worth all the work though.
Absolutely. In a world with China as competition, you need the increased economic power. The EU needs to get with Russia fast as well. That would too be well worth the effort.

Absolutely. In a world with China as competition, you need the increased economic power. The EU needs to get with Russia fast as well. That would too be well worth the effort.
But what do the canadians get? :mad:

I am not comfortable with the fact that 500,000 people a year hop our borders. That's more than 100,000 people a day.
I think your years are a bit short. I can believe that 500,000 a year is closer to reality, though. 100,000 a day and you would have the entire population of Mexico in three years.

But what do the canadians get? :mad:
Those lemmings which inhabit that fictional country above the US? :confused:

Absolutely. In a world with China as competition, you need the increased economic power. The EU needs to get with Russia fast as well. That would too be well worth the effort.

Yeah, Russia would take as long as turkey to get into the EU, but still worth the effort.

I think your years are a bit short. I can believe that 500,000 a year is closer to reality, though. 100,000 a day and you would have the entire population of Mexico in three years.

Well at least the food would improve. Not to mention the festivals. If nothing else, Mexicans can throw a party.

Those lemmings which inhabit that fictional country above the US? :confused:
Don't lemmings have a tendency to explode? Send em to Iran :p

Yeah, Russia would take as long as turkey to get into the EU, but still worth the effort.
The problem is that Russia might not want to enter if Turkey does. Russia is very proud, and rarely forgets a grudge. Turkey's entry is up in the air, and Russia shows no signs of reforming any time soon. I am hoping Russia changes its mindset and realises that the EU is its ally, not enemy.

But what do the canadians get? :mad:

Canada can have ... ummm ... Alaska. There you go. Enjoy with my blessing.

Sounds like a very sensible position. The problem is that that is not what is happening. It seems Bush is trying to lock down the borders with troops who arn't trained to do the job without addressing the issue of making legal immigration more streamlined.
If Bush had his way the borders would be wide open. His National Guard solution is a smoke screen. They are not allowed to arrest or even detain people that they see crossing. As far as the rest, the guest worker program is his baby. While I obviously don't mind it, I want to see some real enforcement of our borders, too. He has consistently dodged that issue. It was Bush who coined the phrases, "guest worker program" and "path to citizenship."

Don't lemmings have a tendency to explode? Send em to Iran :p
There, now you have an incentive to put that fictional little playground into your pan-American economic union. :)

Canada can have ... ummm ... Alaska. There you go. Enjoy with my blessing.
THEY GET OUR OIL RESERVES?! No.

Canada can have ... ummm ... Alaska. There you go. Enjoy with my blessing.
Just give 'em Greenland...Denmark will complain, but hey, the US can do what it likes. :p

I think your years are a bit short. I can believe that 500,000 a year is closer to reality, though. 100,000 a day and you would have the entire population of Mexico in three years.
Yeah, I blew a zero. Sue me. :p

Well at least the food would improve. Not to mention the festivals. If nothing else, Mexicans can throw a party.
Well, at least with no one else in Mexico I can claim the state of Veracruz all to myself.

THEY GET OUR OIL RESERVES?! No.

But then we can invade them!

If Bush had his way the borders would be wide open. His National Guard solution is a smoke screen. They are not allowed to arrest or even detain people that they see crossing. As far as the rest, the guest worker program is his baby. While I obviously don't mind it, I want to see some real enforcement of our borders, too. He has consistently dodged that issue. It was Bush who coined the phrases, "guest worker program" and "path to citizenship."

That was my point with the "untrained" bit. It just seems like an idea to placate the right wingers and gain votes - what am I saying, a politician wouldn't do something like that........:D

Well, at least with no one else in Mexico I can claim the state of Veracruz all to myself.

hehe ... you could be King!

What I always find funny is that Americans (and others in that position in various countries) enjoy their position by sheer accident of their birth, and have done nothing to earn or deserve it.

In fact, as is the case in many countries, alot of people who have the right only by birth don't really deserve to waste the right to work there because they have no intention of getting a job.

They haven't done anything to get that right. They don't do anything with it. They have it because of something they have no control over.

Surely somebody who is willing to illegally enter the US, at their own peril, and work shitty jobs to scrape a living for their family is more deserving of the right to work than those I have described above?

You saying immigrants make better Americans than Americans-by-accident-of-birth ?:D

That was my point with the "untrained" bit. It just seems like an idea to placate the right wingers and gain votes - what am I saying, a politician wouldn't do something like that........:D
Just gotta show 'em there's votes in it.

There, now you have an incentive to put that fictional little playground into your pan-American economic union. :)
Yay!

Yeah, it will keep em out until the big tropical storm comes, and the fat guy knocks out the security system and all. Then we have velociraptors and mexicans everywhere!


then we'll have our first annual mexican/raptor roundup! If it aint from here, your clear to pull the trigger!

If Bush had his way the borders would be wide open.

there is a difference between open borders and formalizing the existence of a permanent underclass.

But then we can invade them!
I saw we make them the new Mexico.

Birth certificate is always a handy thing to have.



Are you saying sick or injured people should be turned away based on their nationality?



Birth certificate and shots records are all I needed to enroll all 4 of my kids into school.



Now you're getting into the realm of private companies. Credit Card companies may decline anyone for any reason, specified or not.

So-they would have birth certificates? I thought we were just going to let them in?

No-sick and injured people should get care regardless of who they are. BUT, they should have responsibilty to the bill. Not just leave a phony name and walk out when they are ready. Do you want to keep paying toward that, or have them assume responsibilty?

So-they would have birth certificates? I thought we were just going to let them in?

There's a huge difference between coming in and using the roads. Travel is a right in the US, but operating a motor vehicle is not. If they want to walk or ride a horse, no license needed.

Do you want to keep paying toward that, or have them assume responsibilty?

Why not? I pay for every white trash idiot who falls off his roof and does the same thing. What's another 0.00000000000004 cents added to my taxes? I'd rather pay for some sick Mexicans than an unjust war.

there is a difference between open borders and formalizing the existence of a permanent underclass.
You're right. That's what all this is really about. It's funny, kinda, seeing the extreme left and corporate America on the same side. This is really about creating a permanent, low wage underclass in the US. If we do this all legally then corporations will have to do things like pay for medical insurance and give sick and vacation pay to foreign workers. Labor laws suddenly apply to immigrants and not just citizens. If we do this the legal way foreign workers can do thing like file lawsuits against corporations for back pay or unsafe working conditions. That's why it's companies like Tyson Chicken and Arthur Daniels Midland that are lobbying against border controls.

You're right. That's what all this is really about. It's funny, kinda, seeing the extreme left and corporate America on the same side. This is really about creating a permanent, low wage underclass in the US. If we do this all legally then corporations will have to do things like pay for medical insurance and give sick and vacation pay to foreign workers. Labor laws suddenly apply to immigrants and not just citizens. If we do this the legal way foreign workers can do thing like file lawsuits against corporations for back pay or unsafe working conditions. That's why it's companies like Tyson Chicken and Arthur Daniels Midland that are lobbying against border controls.
Your country would collapse on its own foundations from the burden of an over-heating welfare system if the borders were completely open.

Your country would collapse on its own foundations from the burden of an over-heating welfare system if the borders were completely open.
yep

There's a huge difference between coming in and using the roads. Travel is a right in the US, but operating a motor vehicle is not. If they want to walk or ride a horse, no license needed.



Why not? I pay for every white trash idiot who falls off his roof and does the same thing. What's another 0.00000000000004 cents added to my taxes? I'd rather pay for some sick Mexicans than an unjust war.


So-do you pay for every black 3rd generation welfare mother too? Or just the "white trash idiots" ?

Its likely just a little more than that, which I'm sure you're aware. And its not only your taxes, if you pay those-its also in your health and auto insurance as well as any doctor/medical bills you have to pay your portion on as well.

"unjust war" is a whole other topic, as if there were such a thing as a "just war".

So-do you pay for every black 3rd generation welfare mother too? Or just the "white trash idiots" ?

Its likely just a little more than that, which I'm sure you're aware. And its not only your taxes, if you pay those-its also in your health and auto insurance as well as any doctor/medical bills you have to pay your portion on as well.

I really don't mind at all. I believe medical attention to be a fundamental need along with food and shelter. I further believe that all fundamental needs should be free.

"unjust war" is a whole other topic, as if there were such a thing as a "just war".

Point taken.

i believe the border is government land, but you can buy property next to the border. but to get to your property they are still going to have to cross US government land.

and i hope your just being silly because your idea just plane sucks

From now on, fececious posts should carry a warning, in BOLD, stating that they are, in fact, fececious, parodiacal, and otherwise intended to be humourous. It clearly not fair to waste the wits of the few who cannot discern such forms of communication. I mean really, what if they only had one wit left?

Firstly, the USA's Government need not worry about Healthcare, it doesn't have a national health service (silly Americans).

To add on to that, can one of the Mexiphobic posters please tell why you think you have the right to tell an immigrant "No, you can't feed your family unless you go through endless beurocracy. Sorry, go away and starve", just because you were born into privellege!

For a Nation that rebelled against the "The Divine Right of Kings", you're doing a pretty good impression of it.

Ah well....

From now on, fececious posts should carry a warning, in BOLD, stating that they are, in fact, fececious, parodiacal, and otherwise intended to be humourous.

But then I wouldn't get 130+ posts of knee-jerk xenophobic bickering. :p

Maybe I'm the only person in the country who remembers that the real threats to our nation, those 9/11 hijackers and whatnot, were here LEGALLY and did everything they did LEGALLY.

Point well made. =)

For a Nation that rebelled against the "The Divine Right of Kings", you're doing a pretty good impression of it.


You just have to remember the official motto of the United States:

It's Different if We Do It.

I really don't mind at all. I believe medical attention to be a fundamental need along with food and shelter. I further believe that all fundamental needs should be free.



Point taken.


It cant be free for everyone in our system, Keru- you know that. In the places where it is "free" it doesnt really work so good-unless you're aware of something I'm not.

So- the answer is to make it easier for people to come here,especially if they want to work.
I'm for a backround check that would weed out the more serious criminals, establish accurate ID that would allow immigrants to assume responsiblity and enjoy the good things about this country and contribute fairly as most of the rest of us do.

We need to just fucking invade Mexico and assimilate the damn thing into the union, adding like ten more states with the sheer size of it and fixing that immigration problem. Why cross the border of Texas to enter America when you could just stay where you are and let America come to you? =P

Well now, that might not be a bad idea if it could be done without a loss of life. Should we send Fox and e-mail outlining our proposal?

For every illegal you harbor - which is still a crime even if they're related to you (or you pretend they are) - I'll deport three. How's that?
Lol 12 year olds in their momys basement hardly have the power to deport anyone

How about we buy some land on the Mexican side of the border, put up signs saying "Welcome the the United States" and trick the Mexicans into staying in their own country?? :)

A most original idea. lol.

Surely somebody who is willing to illegally enter the US, at their own peril, and work shitty jobs to scrape a living for their family is more deserving of the right to work than those I have described above?

Absolutely.

I saw we make them the new Mexico.

But isn't there already a New Mexico?

How about Newer Mexico? or More Mexico? Mucho Mexico?

Ahhh, you see, no.

The mexicans would make a giant trojan pinyata, take it to the boarder, kill the guards, take over america.

Do you really want that?

That would be supercool footage for Spike TV.

But isn't there already a New Mexico?

How about Newer Mexico? or More Mexico? Mucho Mexico?
Novus New Mexico. :)

That's cool. Will you do me a favor, though? Can you pay for the sewers, the extra cops, the roads, the ER workers, the classrooms, the teachers, the doctors, the infrastructure maintenance, the jail space, the courts, the judges and all the other resources needed to take care of these people while they're here?

Certainly, as long as you will take care of the same for the larger number of Americans that are 2nd and 3rd generation welfare recipients. And I bet my people will be on their feet paying taxes before your people will.

Certainly, as long as you will take care of the same for the larger number of Americans that are 2nd and 3rd generation welfare recipients. And I bet my people will be on their feet paying taxes before your people will.

This could actually be used as an inventive gambling idea...

Bah ... all meaningless. You forget I'm a Jew. We have lawyers ... powerful, world controlling lawyers.

^5 to da Jew.

He can fly, you know.

he makes my twatty twitter.

It cant be free for everyone in our system, Keru- you know that. In the places where it is "free" it doesnt really work so good-unless you're aware of something I'm not.

So- the answer is to make it easier for people to come here,especially if they want to work.
I'm for a backround check that would weed out the more serious criminals, establish accurate ID that would allow immigrants to assume responsiblity and enjoy the good things about this country and contribute fairly as most of the rest of us do.
That's about all I ask. That's also about all the "anti-immigration" crowd that I hear talk about ask for, too. Legal, controled immigration so we know who's here and why. Taxes are paid, services provided. We can plan for things like classroom sizes and sewer systems. No shadow economy. I'm so tired of anyone not in favor of wide open borders bing called a "xenophobe" or "racist." Everyone I know is in favor of tighter border control and since I grew up in a largely Hispanic community and good deal of my friends and coworkers are Hispanic it says something about that argument.

I have an idea, how about we lock donw the border, set up enough security to slow illegal immigration to a trickle and start seriously punishing employers that hire illegal immigrants. Then we can set up employment offices at teh border. They can even be run by Mexico so that we don't have to use our tax dollars. Mexicans wishing to work in the US can then reigster, do simple health and criminal checks and be given temp worker status in a couple days with an actual destination and a job to go to. That way it costs them next to nothing to get in and very little time and employers will not have to hire people illegally. All teh taxes get paid, everythings above board. We know who's coming here and if we catch someone coming in illegally we can be pretty damn sure there not coming here to work. How's that? :)

Truly not a bad idea. =D

*snip*
Out of curiosity, how long does it take to become a full citizen in the US? And what is required?

Certainly, as long as you will take care of the same for the larger number of Americans that are 2nd and 3rd generation welfare recipients. And I bet my people will be on their feet paying taxes before your people will.
I already do. Will you do me a favor and read the thread before you citicize? I think I'm being perfectly reasonable.

How about we buy some land on the Mexican side of the border, put up signs saying "Welcome the the United States" and trick the Mexicans into staying in their own country?? :)

Oh! Oh! Or what if we make a long tunnel to Iraq and fool them into going there? It looks like Nogales there, doesn't it?

LOL

I saw we make them the new Mexico.
There's already a new Mexico. They would be the new new Mexico.

There's already a new Mexico. They would be the new new Mexico.
When English fails, resort to Latin- Novus New Mexico :p

Isn't it funny how all the people that push for less restriction on the market and more of a free, capitalist market, with lots of competition, are the same ones against the mexicans comming here, working for cheap, providing for competition against americans?

It is kinda funny. About as funny as Econ 101.

<snort!>

Out of curiosity, how long does it take to become a full citizen in the US? And what is required?
If you can find someone to marry you it takes about three years, but that doesn't matter because you get the full benefits of being a citizen as soon as the ink's dry on yoru wedding license. Beyond that I think it varies greatly depending on whether you are filing for political asylum or are a sponsored, skilled worker or enlist in the military.

Really the biggest problem is that we just need to hire more people for immigration. According to the bill passing through congress they are giving ICE 90 days to process 12 million applications. Great. They have a three year backlog of 3 million applications right now. How the fuck does Congress, when the bill gives not one red cent to the immigration beurocracy, expect them to process 12 million applications in 90 days when they can't process 3 million in three years?

yes. based on your question, i strongly suspect that you don't know what the word 'sovereign' means though.

Jacking off alone instead of in pairs?

I say we get rid of all the borders and stupid nationalistic laws everywhere in the hemisphere. If you're from the US and want to buy some beach side property in Oaxaca (which you can't do now) and turn it into a bed and breakfast or surfer hangout, you should be able to. If you're from Costa Rica and want to work in said bed and breakfast (which you can't now), you should be able to. If you're from Argentina and are travelling by road to visit relatives in the Yukon, you shouldn't have to be hassled and harassed at every border, you should just be able to pack your things and go.

Sure, economies will have to be synchronized at least a bit; some laws homologated, and a few other things arranged. But at least we should be trying to move towards that goal. Not necessarily under one government, but a tighter continental unity.

God I love you. This is so right on.

If you can find someone to marry you it takes about three years, but that doesn't matter because you get the full benefits of being a citizen as soon as the ink's dry on yoru wedding license. Beyond that I think it varies greatly depending on whether you are filing for political asylum or are a sponsored, skilled worker or enlist in the military.
Hmm, thanks for the info.

Really the biggest problem is that we just need to hire more people for immigration. According to the bill passing through congress they are giving ICE 90 days to process 12 million applications. Great. They have a three year backlog of 3 million applications right now. How the fuck does Congress, when the bill gives not one red cent to the immigration beurocracy, expect them to process 12 million applications in 90 days when they can't process 3 million in three years?
Makes me wonder if your Government knows what it is actually doing. :p

Out of curiosity, how long does it take to become a full citizen in the US? And what is required?

To be quite honest with you- I have no idea how long it takes. I am aware it is an involved process, but apparently the people that have the respect and desire to complete it are very proud when they are delared citzens.

However, its not necessary to become a citizen- you can be a LEGAL immigrant. Its not that much to ask.

I wouldn't. The incentive would already be there to hire Americans first because of proximity, but if you can't compete for a job with a Mexican than you probably don't deserve that job. Think about it. You've got a roofing contractor down the street. If he would rather go to Mexico for labor than hire you for the same money, because foriegn workers woudl get all the same wages and protections, then you are either a lazy asshole or an idiot.

Where DO you work Marksman?

To be quite honest with you- I have no idea how long it takes. I am aware it is an involved process, but apparently the people that have the respect and desire to complete it are very proud when they are delared citzens.

However, its not necessary to become a citizen- you can be a LEGAL immigrant. Its not that much to ask.
I just wanted to clarify if there is a difference between a legal immigrant and legal citizen in the US. It would've struck me as absurd if there wasn't.

Out of curiosity, how long does it take to become a full citizen in the US? And what is required?

It takes several years of classes and testing ,youve got to renounce citizenship to other nations and be sworn in as a naturalised citizen. Those whove done it the right and legal way are quite proud. Probably better and more informed citizens on average than those of us born here. Head and shoulders above your average illegal alien in knowlege rights representation and actions.
We arent doing illegal aliens any giant favors letting them exist here in limbo with no rights or responsibilities

Hmm, thanks for the info.


Makes me wonder if your Government knows what it is actually doing. :p
http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/webpics/george_w_bush.jpg

http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/webpics/george_w_bush.jpg
Pictures speak a 1000 words. :p In this case, all of them are synonyms of jackass.

Where DO you work Marksman?
Me, or Marksman? You quoted me so I work here: http://www.technicolor.com

It takes several years of classes and testing ,youve got to renounce citizenship to other nations and be sworn in as a naturalised citizen. Those whove done it the right and legal way are quite proud. Probably better and more informed citizens on average than those of us born here. Head and shoulders above your average illegal alien in knowlege rights representation and actions.
We arent doing illegal aliens any giant favors letting them exist here in limbo with no rights or responsibilities
I think those who are born in the US should be subject to the same citizenship tests as immigrants. All citizens must be of a high standard, not just those who enter externally.

Hmm, thanks for the info.


Makes me wonder if your Government knows what it is actually doing. :p

No government has much of a clue what it's doing. Its a sure sign of self delusion when you think that you understand either government or women

I think those who are born in the US should be subject to the same citizenship tests as immigrants. All citizens must be of a high standard, not just those who enter externally.

What of the mentally retarded and insane?

What do you do if a citizen fails a test?

No government has much of a clue what it's doing. Its a sure sign of self delusion when you think that you understand either government or women
Women I get (helps that I think like one); governments I don't.

I think those who are born in the US should be subject to the same citizenship tests as immigrants. All citizens must be of a high standard, not just those who enter externally.
Well, we try to do that. It's called school. The problem in Los Angeles, once the model public school systenm for the nation, now in shambles, is that we are overloaded. As many as 50 students a class and 70% of them are English as a second language and they just sued the state to drop it's exit exam so basically you don't have to know shit to graduate. All a diploma means in CA now is that you were babysat for the last 13 years.

So you're admitting it's not about legal vs illegal immigration, but rather letting Mexicans into the country or not. Good to know, you see some people on this board think I'm just hallucinating people like you.


Look, it really is quite simple. Build a 100 foot tall, 3 foot wide concrete wall with gates, towers (with guns, AA cannons, etc), and nearby military bases. No more illegals, and no more threat of Mexican army invasion.;)

What of the mentally retarded and insane?
Different case. They obviously wouldn't be able to do so. For those born in the US who are able though, it's sort of like they are getting the easy way out.

I already do. Will you do me a favor and read the thread before you citicize? I think I'm being perfectly reasonable.

I have read the whole thread, Dan, and you KNOW you are being a turd.

Me, or Marksman? You quoted me so I work here: http://www.technicolor.com

I am pretty sure I was following your remark with a pointed question to Marksman, but thank you for sharing.

Well, we try to do that. It's called school. The problem in Los Angeles, once the model public school systenm for the nation, now in shambles, is that we are overloaded. As many as 50 students a class and 70% of them are English as a second language and they just sued the state to drop it's exit exam so basically you don't have to know shit to graduate. All a diploma means in CA now is that you were babysat for the last 13 years.
Citizenship should be contingent upon possessing a proper education, an understanding of the nation's workings and history, a willingnless to embrace its culture and a willingness to work. So, essentially, as your education system fails, you are breeding a nation of idiots?

I have read the whole thread, Dan, and you KNOW you are being a turd.
I disagree. As I said, I think I'm being completely fair and reasonable.

Citizenship should be contingent upon possessing a proper education, an understanding of the nation's workings and history, a willingless to embrace its culture and a willingness to work. So, essentially, as your education system fails, you are breeding a nation of idiots?
That's about the size of it.

I disagree. As I said, I think I'm being completely fair and reasonable.
Hey, if you can convince Keruvalia on this, you know you've given quite a persuasive argument. ;)

That's about the size of it.
Cool. :) So idiots do rule the world after all.

Different case. They obviously wouldn't be able to do so. For those born in the US who are able though, it's sort of like they are getting the easy way out.

I agrreee that the U.S. (and every country for that matter) should encourage a strong background and working knowlege of the government. Through education would be my primary hope.

However US testing this knowlege as a condition of continued citizenship is just wrong. Foremost because it makes citizenship not a birthright but a condition.This has too much room for abuse. It further erodes the constitution. And it sets the scene for an elite class.

Hey, if you can convince Keruvalia on this, you know you've given quite a persuasive argument. ;)
Often, if you can stop the name calling long enough, you find that what you expect someone to say is far less reasonable than what they actually do say. There were so many comments in this thread about knee-jerk xenophobes. I do knwo that they exist here and everywhere. Bu that does not mean it's okay to resort to knee-jerk appeals to racism when someone doesn't support an open border policy. Most people I know, even most Hispanics, actually every Hispanic, thinks we need to do more to control our borders and most of them are quite reasonable about it. I don't know anyone who is screaming for the deportation of 12 million people. I dont' knwo anyone who doesn't think people shoudl be able to immigrate here to work and live. We have a problem at the border. We have hundreds of thousands of people a year being smuggled in in gas tanks and tractior trailers and sneaking in over the desert. We NEED to get a handle on this and I know that involves making it easier to come here and streamlining the process of getting jobs for potential immigrants. It also involves getting serious about border security, North and South, and port and airport security as well.

I agrreee that the U.S. (and every country for that matter) should encourage a strong background and working knowlege of the government. Through education would be my primary hope.

However US testing this knowlege as a condition of continued citizenship is just wrong. Foremost because it makes citizenship not a birthright but a condition.This has too much room for abuse. It further erodes the constitution. And it sets the scene for an elite class.
It should be based on a condition, but for practical reasons I would agree with you. Oh well, I guess this would go down better in Europe than in the US.

Cool. :) So idiots do rule the world after all.
Unfortunately.

From now on, fececious posts should carry a warning, in BOLD, stating that they are, in fact, fececious, parodiacal, and otherwise intended to be humourous. It clearly not fair to waste the wits of the few who cannot discern such forms of communication. I mean really, what if they only had one wit left?
Facetious is the only word in the English language that uses all of the vowels in order and only once.

Being from CA long, long ago, all of this reminds me of one of my favorite jokes I'd tell bigoted Californians when I encountered them while circulating ballot initiative petitions:

"You know, about two hundred years ago, all this land was part of Mexico...and it will be again someday!" :cool:

Being from CA long, long ago, all of this reminds me of one of my favorite jokes I'd tell bigoted Californians when I encountered them while circulating ballot initiative petitions:

"You know, about two hundred years ago, all this land was part of Mexico...and it will be again someday!" :cool:
I'll bet two things about this poster.

1. He or she is comepletely ignorant about history. The first clus is the timeline.

2. No one will call him or her out about how unreasonable this post is.

I, and all like minded people, will go buy up all the land next to the border and put up a bunch of signs that say "Welcome to America! Enjoy your stay!" and, since it's private property, I can just say,"Oh, no officer, this is my cousin just comin' to visit for a couple of weeks. Go away now."

Every now and then I will need my "cousin" to go to the store for me. It will take him about 8 hours a day, 5 or 6 days a week to do that.

You ain't harboring illegals if it's family.
1. The US Government owns the land along the border. In any case, their laws still apply on your property as well as theirs.

2. They'll want documentation to prove that you're related to this guy.

3. I doubt the government would care if the "illegals" were related to you or now.

Oh ... the "if you like it so much, why don't you marry it" routine ... how .... kindergarten.
Is it really so unreasonable to ask people who want a theocracy in America to move to Iran, in that case?

Also a surprisingly acceptable thing to me. Well ... without the invasion ... why not just ask them if they'd like to join us? No need to invade. Hell, they may do it willingly.

Would certainly give us a lot more bodies to throw over to Iraq.
You could call it Mexicanschluss.

Can you say "tax the rich"?!
How can you know how much to tax the rich, and where to spend the money, if you have no idea how many illegal immigrants there are, what their demographics are or where they are located?

I say tax them poor folk, they got enough as it is.
Your statement is contradictory. How do they have enough, relative to the rich, if they are poor?

We can stop cowering behind fences and walls and actually start *acting* like the biggest and baddest and say, "Sure! Come on in! Glad to have you! We'll put on coffee!"

You need to know how many cups of coffee to make if you're inviting everybody around.

Maybe Texas is different, but I live in a country which has public services. W pay for them collectively through taxes. The government knows how and where to spend the money because it knows how many people live where, and the demographics of each area. Without that knowledge, things become much more difficult.

Is it really so unreasonable to ask people who want a theocracy in America to move to Iran, in that case?


You could call it Mexicanschluss.


How can you know how much to tax the rich, and where to spend the money, if you have no idea how many illegal immigrants there are, what their demographics are or where they are located?


Your statement is contradictory. How do they have enough, relative to the rich, if they are poor?


You need to know how many cups of coffee to make if you're inviting everybody around.

Maybe Texas is different, but I live in a country which has public services. W pay for them collectively through taxes. The government knows how and where to spend the money because it knows how many people live where, and the demographics of each area. Without that knowledge, things become much more difficult.


Swimming Pool ?

Your statement is contradictory. How do they have enough, relative to the rich, if they are poor?
I was joking. :rolleyes:

I'd like to know something from everyone who is not a birth-right or naturalized citizen of the USA why US immigration policy or attitudes towards legal or illegal immigration is even an issue for you?

If you do not live in the US, why do you have an opinion and why should your position be given any consideration?

Oh, c'mon, PsychoticDan... 'completely ignorant about history'? It seems you'd not make much of a gambler. Am I older than you? Well, I'm a history teacher, anyway. And when you're calling me ignorant, at least spellcheck your response first if you don't know how to type or spell~~you know, for less hypocrisy. Or is it one of your super-clever joke-in-a-jokes?; like how so few native Californians actually know much about the history of their state or the histories of the cultures that lived on those lands for a dozen millenia before "statehood". Quote some Simon Ortiz for me?

Furthermore, what is unreasonable about my post? I was simply decribing a historical event that happened on numerous occasions (re: telling the joke). BTW, you can thank me for that 50-cent-per-pack hike on your smokes as well as the ban on smoking in public buildings when you voted for that Prop back in '98. Actually, I just put it on the ballot. And you can also similarly thank my friends and I for medical marijuana. Our congressional term limits initiatives were outlawed by...our congressmen. That's history.

On a fun note, here are some funny notions I encountered recently:

USuckAss

Jorge BUllSHit, Nazi Dictator of the United Soviet States of America

...Now that's over the top! HAHAHA

What I always find funny is that Americans (and others in that position in various countries) enjoy their position by sheer accident of their birth, and have done nothing to earn or deserve it.

In fact, as is the case in many countries, alot of people who have the right only by birth don't really deserve to waste the right to work there because they have no intention of getting a job.

They haven't done anything to get that right. They don't do anything with it. They have it because of something they have no control over.

Surely somebody who is willing to illegally enter the US, at their own peril, and work shitty jobs to scrape a living for their family is more deserving of the right to work than those I have described above?

Uhm...OK, so you are suggesting that the most fundamental right, CITIZENSHIP by birthright should be denied to people?
That citizenship should only be conferred to those who have passed all designated tests and proven themselves worthy and "deserving"?

Where do we put those who can or will never pass the tests? It's an odd paradox of thought that persons not only be required to prove they deserve citizenship while concurrently advocating disenfranchising anyone who can't pass the muster in the cause for "open and uncontested immigration". I don't think the two positions reconcile?

On a fun note, here are some funny notions I encountered recently:

USuckAss

Jorge BUllSHit, Nazi Dictator of the United Soviet States of America

...Now that's over the top! HAHAHA

Haha.
And childish.

Oh, c'mon, PsychoticDan... 'completely ignorant about history'? It seems you'd not make much of a gambler. Am I older than you? Well, I'm a history teacher, anyway. And when you're calling me ignorant, at least spellcheck your response first if you don't know how to type or spell~~you know, for less hypocrisy. Or is it one of your super-clever joke-in-a-jokes?; like how so few native Californians actually know much about the history of their state or the histories of the cultures that lived on those lands for a dozen millenia before "statehood". Quote some Simon Ortiz for me?

Furthermore, what is unreasonable about my post? I was simply decribing a historical event that happened on numerous occasions (re: telling the joke). BTW, you can thank me for that 50-cent-per-pack hike on your smokes as well as the ban on smoking in public buildings when you voted for that Prop back in '98. Actually, I just put it on the ballot. And you can also similarly thank my friends and I for medical marijuana. Our congressional term limits initiatives were outlawed by...our congressmen. That's history.

On a fun note, here are some funny notions I encountered recently:

USuckAss

Jorge BUllSHit, Nazi Dictator of the United Soviet States of America

...Now that's over the top! HAHAHA
Forgive the past typo and the ones that are about to occur, but the treaty of Guadalupe Hildago was signed just 150 years ago, not 200. Mexico, the country we "took" this land from was, like the USA, a recently independent European colony inhabited mostly by Spaniards and with a squarely European, Christian culture and a European language. If you are Spani.., excuse me I mean Mexican then your family has probably not been here any longer than mine. If you are native American than you owe no more allegiance to Mexico than you do to the US.

The way that this land was "stolen" from Mexico is that a part of Mexico, a part now called Texas, declared itself independent and fought a war for it and won, a war the US had absolutely nothing to do with. For a while afterwards Mexico viewed Texas in much the same was China views Taiwan, as a piece of land inhabited by a bunch of rebels but that really belongs to Mexico. A few years later, probably just to get the backing of the US army, Texas asked to be a state. The US said, "cool." and then sent the army to guard it's new investment. There were a few skirmishes and war was declared. The US took the rest of what became the Guadelupe Hildago purchse by just walking in because, basically, there were no mexicans in California, Arizona, New Mexico or Utah and the ones that were there were fine with it. The only resistence the US got was when they crossed into what is now northern Mexico and took Mexico city. It was still pretty easy, though, because so many Mexicans took it as an opportunity to revolt against the Mexican government so they had to put down all those rebellious Mexicans and the native Americans they were killing and oppressing at the same time they were trying to deal with the US. We signed a treaty, gave Mexico, ultimately $25 million for what is now the SW US and that's that.

So, please, if you ae native American don't try to make it sound like Mexico was a native American country and the Mexican American war was the last stand of the native American in the US. If you are Mexican, don't try to act like you are any more entitled to the land here than I am. You stole it first, we just bought stolen goods from you at below market value. Should've treated your citizens better and noe of this would have happened.

By the way, if you are going to try to insult me with stupid political slogans about George Bush you should make sure that they are worse than anything I have said about him on this very forum.

Oh, and History teacher my ass. You've not taught a day.

I'd like to know something from everyone who is not a birth-right or naturalized citizen of the USA why US immigration policy or attitudes towards legal or illegal immigration is even an issue for you?
The effects of those policies will spill to other countries. The US is not inside a bubble.

If you do not live in the US, why do you have an opinion and why should your position be given any consideration?
Uh... because it might actually be good?

Swimmingpool ?
You only realised this now?

You are psychotically defensive! Poor crazy! Did I make any allusion to being hispanic, mexican, or aboriginal? My white-assed ancestors arrived to new england three centuries ago; that's as native as I am to the States but enough for me. Oh, so, was california part of mexico 200 years ago? But, more importantly, do you think it will be again someday?? HahaHA!

You are psychotically defensive! Poor crazy! Did I make any allusion to being hispanic, mexican, or aboriginal? My white-assed ancestors arrived to new england three centuries ago; that's as native as I am to the States but enough for me. Oh, so, was california part of mexico 200 years ago? But, more importantly, do you think it will be again someday?? HahaHA!
troll ;)

The effects of those policies will spill to other countries. The US is not inside a bubble.


Uh... because it might actually be good?

Ok, but how?
In which ways?
I request specifics.

And with all the resentment expressed over US foreign policies (interference), Example the "invasion" of Iraq, how can other countries then justify feeling entitled to "interfere" with internal policies of the US?

You're right. That's what all this is really about. It's funny, kinda, seeing the extreme left and corporate America on the same side. This is really about creating a permanent, low wage underclass in the US. If we do this all legally then corporations will have to do things like pay for medical insurance and give sick and vacation pay to foreign workers. Labor laws suddenly apply to immigrants and not just citizens. If we do this the legal way foreign workers can do thing like file lawsuits against corporations for back pay or unsafe working conditions. That's why it's companies like Tyson Chicken and Arthur Daniels Midland that are lobbying against border controls.

the cappies are mostly pushing keep the situation as is (with some siding with bush's official underclass program). my side is pushing for open borders and ridiculously easy routes to citizenship for those that so choose, with full protections for everyone regardless of birthplace or paperwork status.

the only thing that unites their position with ours is that none of us are idiots. they want to keep the system of exploitation running and we want to free people, but we all at least agree that creating 12 million felons (with mandatory minimum sentences, no less) is an indisputably retarded idea, as is the idea of implementing border controls on anything like the level needed to satisfy the nativists.

Ok, but how?
In which ways?
I request specifics.

Each country will have different concerns, but from the point of view of Mexico, the repatriation of several million people would not be easy. There would also be concerns over trade and human rights, of course.

And with all the resentment expressed over US foreign policies (interference), Example the "invasion" of Iraq, how can other countries then justify feeling entitled to "interfere" with internal policies of the US?
It's one thing to have an opinion on another country's policies, or even to exert diplomatic influece. It's quite another to send an invasion force over made-up allegations.

Facetious is the only word in the English language that uses all of the vowels in order and only once.

Are you telling me the root word is NOT Feces?

Well I'll be damned.

LOL

I'll bet two things about this poster.

1. He or she is comepletely ignorant about history. The first clus is the timeline.

2. No one will call him or her out about how unreasonable this post is.

He said it was a JOKE Dan. Simmer down now!