NationStates Jolt Archive

Indonesian fundamentalist muslim groups are rallying to force government to pass a law that would ban, among other things, kissing in public.

The protesters, who arrived in buses organized by mosques and conservative Islamic groups, urged parliament to immediately pass the bill, that in its current form would ban kissing in public -- as well as erotic poetry, dancing, drawing, writing, photos and film.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/05/21/indonesia.porn.ap/

Allah forbid some teenager sees a pretty girl dancing or a couple kissing and gets an erection. That would be the end of the Muslim religion.

As usual, what do you expect from these people?

Ergh.. That just plain annoys me.
Should plan a massive air-drop of pornographic magazines. Teach them what it really is. I saw a news article on it with their signs saying "No Porn!".. Yea.. Grrr.

Man...It's things like this that make you wish life was one giant tabletop RPG and the DM will just say "thats it, game over, rocks fall, everyone dies."

Whilst I hate to join the bandwagon, how many more freedoms can there be to suppress?

Just another reason as to why I'll never go to Indonesia.

Man...It's things like this that make you wish life was one giant tabletop RPG and the DM will just say "thats it, game over, rocks fall, everyone dies."
Ahh! No way! What about us NPCs? >_<;

Ahh! No way! What about us NPCs? >_<;

Sorry, you were never real in the first place :cool: .

Whilst I hate to join the bandwagon, how many more freedoms can there be to suppress?

All of 'em but one.

I don't really enjoy saying this ( being a religious man ) but the Freedom of Religion - when not loaded down with pressing restrictions - tends to leave all other Freedoms as utterly moot and pointless.

For there will always be someone to claim that your freedom to smoke/be gay/have a drink/or write a book - infringes on HIS freedom to worship The Hissyfit as he pleases.

All of 'em but one.

I don't really enjoy saying this ( being a religious man ) but the Freedom of Religion - when not loaded down with pressing restrictions - tends to leave all other Freedoms as utterly moot and pointless.

For there will always be someone to claim that your freedom to smoke/be gay/have a drink/or write a book - infringes on HIS freedom to worship The Hissyfit as he pleases.
The only necessary restriction is the one that goes in all freedom rights "...as long as it doesn't violate the rights of other people." "Laws" such as this one is not about freedom of religion, it is religious authoritarianism. Exactly the opposite of freedom of relligion.

The only necessary restriction is the one that goes in all freedom rights "...as long as it doesn't violate the rights of other people." "Laws" such as this one is not about freedom of religion, it is religious authoritarianism. Exactly the opposite of freedom of relligion.

But you can't have a right to be gay, so how can I violate it?
Your interpretation is by necessity wrong, so I'll burn ya.

See: Denmark.

Sorry, you were never real in the first place :cool: .
But... but... We are the DM! ;_;

Can't say I'm suprised by this. After all, a lot of countries around that region apparently banned bubble gum at some point. I think Indonesia still has a ban on it?
Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't exactly follow international policies much.

But you can't have a right to be gay, so how can I violate it?
Your interpretation is by necessity wrong, so I'll burn ya.

See: Denmark.
Why can't you have a right to be gay?

But you can't have a right to be gay, so how can I violate it?
Your interpretation is by necessity wrong, so I'll burn ya.

See: Denmark.
But you have the right to control your own body (self ownership), so if two people wish to have gay sex in their home they have the right to it. You don't need to define a new right for each action you do.

But you have the right to control your own body (self ownership), so if two people wish to have gay sex in their home they have the right to it. You don't need to define a new right for each action you do.

I agree.
They wont.
See my point?

If you concede my right to worship as I please, that must of necessity include my right to worship by sacrificing small animals - or my right to worship by taking your freedoms or your life away, whenever I claim my holy book says so.
I mean, I might even have rewritten my holy book for the occassion, but that doesn't stop me from stoning you as long as I am granted a religious excuse to do what I think is right.

Why can't you have a right to be gay?

(Sorry for not seeing your post.)

My Holy Hissyfit informed me that there is no legitimacy except through my Holy Hissyfit.
Since MHH never meant for people to be gay, I have a Hissyfit-given right to stop you from exercising your ( obviously mistaken since it hasnt been granted by MHH! ) freedom.

I agree.
They wont.
See my point?

If you concede my right to worship as I please, that must of necessity include my right to worship by sacrificing small animals - or my right to worship by taking your freedoms or your life away, whenever I claim my holy book says so.
I mean, I might even have rewritten my holy book for the occassion, but that doesn't stop me from stoning you as long as I am granted a religious excuse to do what I think is right.
I don't. I concede you right to worship as you please as long as you don't violate the rights of any other person. That includes sacrificing small animals, but obviously not stoning anyone (who doesn't consent to it).

I think I will invest in Burkha manufacturing stock.;)

I think this is just islamists asserting themselves and making the "we are teh most islamic people and so we must be in power...so says Allah and Qur'an.." argument.

As it is, Indonesia is a conservative country and nobody necks in public.

It is like me banning nudity in public, when nobody does that anyway, but anybody who opposes it, I can target him as supporting nudity...

ah religion and politics....

I don't. I concede you right to worship as you please as long as you don't violate the rights of any other person. That includes sacrificing small animals, but obviously not stoning anyone (who doesn't consent to it).


Let me try again.
If you grant me the right to appeal to a higher authority than your laws, I will eventually use that appeal to a higher authority to overturn your laws. Since I don't really recognise your restrictions on my rights, I will use the right you granted in a way that suits me, not you.
See: Denmark.

So, don't be a fool, and never ever do such a stupid thing as allowing religious freedom.
The religious freedoms a reasonable man requires are already implied in the other freedoms.

God damn religious wankers trying to impose their backwards views on the rest of society. Shoot em all, I say.

God damn religious wankers trying to impose their backwards views on the rest of society. Shoot em all, I say.

The problem isn't that they are religious, the problem is that they are wankers.

The problem isn't that they are religious, the problem is that they are wankers.

True. But the fact that they are religoius adds to them being wankers.

Have any of you actually been to Indonesia? I was wondering because, having lived there not so horrifically long ago, I didn't find it as conservative or fundamentally Islamist as most of you seem to suggest, and in fact I distinctly register people "necking" (c.f. Aryavartha) in public. In fact, I would suggest that these protests were more similar in nature and influence to the ALF protesters outside the prospective Oxford University animal testing labs, albeit with more credibility.

Have any of you actually been to Indonesia? I was wondering because, having lived there not so horrifically long ago, I didn't find it as conservative or fundamentally Islamist as most of you seem to suggest, and in fact I distinctly register people "necking" (c.f. Aryavartha) in public. In fact, I would suggest that these protests were more similar in nature and influence to the ALF protesters outside the prospective Oxford University animal testing labs, albeit with more credibility.


BS.

Either there is zero Burkas in all of Indonesia.
Or there is a serious problem in need of resolution.

Have you been to Bali, or Timor?

True. But the fact that they are religoius adds to them being wankers.

...

Would you like to elaborate on that please.

Yes, I have. I lived, however, in Bandung, and found that wherever we went in Java, attitudes were pretty similar.

...

Would you like to elaborate on that please.

I hate religious people. Thus, from my point of view, religious people are wankers. :cool:

I hate religious people. Thus, from my point of view, religious people are wankers. :cool:
Aw, I'm not that bad, can't we be friends?:(

Aw, I'm not that bad, can't we be friends?:(

Sure. Why not. But I'm still going to hate you. :)

Sure. Why not. But I'm still going to hate you. :)
I feel that this friendship is going to last a thousand years! :p

I feel that this friendship is going to last a thousand years! :p


:fluffle:

Ergh.. That just plain annoys me.
Should plan a massive air-drop of pornographic magazines. Teach them what it really is. I saw a news article on it with their signs saying "No Porn!".. Yea.. Grrr.

I have a Hind-E currently "on lease" from the Red Mafya. So long as we keep moving and pray that the Indonesians don't have AA we should be fine.

Yes, I have. I lived, however, in Bandung, and found that wherever we went in Java, attitudes were pretty similar.

Well, you see, it is on Bali, Timor and the Moluccas that you can see the perils of politicised Islam in all their glory.

But, anyway, at the cost of repeating: would it be your testimony that Java was completely Burka-free?

Heh, it's just a bunch of reactionaries; there are twits like those in the West, remember? From those that i've met, most Indonesians don't seem to care at all for fundamentalism.

And if it did pass, the Indonesian government sends thousands of students per year to our universities; that'll fix em up in time.

As usual, what do you expect from these people?
by "these people" your talking about muslims correct?

I agree.
They wont.
See my point?

If you concede my right to worship as I please, that must of necessity include my right to worship by sacrificing small animals - or my right to worship by taking your freedoms or your life away, whenever I claim my holy book says so.
I mean, I might even have rewritten my holy book for the occassion, but that doesn't stop me from stoning you as long as I am granted a religious excuse to do what I think is right.

Actually, wouldn't that only be the case if the person you're stoning worships the same god as you do? I mean, if they don't, then you're forcing them to take part in your religious rituals...
As for sacrificing small animals, I'm all for anything that leads to more of that! ;)

I have a Hind-E currently "on lease" from the Red Mafya. So long as we keep moving and pray that the Indonesians don't have AA we should be fine.

Wouldn't a flight of An-225 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-225)'s work better?

Indonesian fundamentalist muslim groups are rallying to force government to pass a law that would ban, among other things, kissing in public.



http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/05/21/indonesia.porn.ap/

Allah forbid some teenager sees a pretty girl dancing or a couple kissing and gets an erection. That would be the end of the Muslim religion.


Dont worry- I wont ever kiss in Indonesia.

Let me try again.
If you grant me the right to appeal to a higher authority than your laws, I will eventually use that appeal to a higher authority to overturn your laws. Since I don't really recognise your restrictions on my rights, I will use the right you granted in a way that suits me, not you.
I can't grant you rights to anything. But if you don't allow for a higher authority than your legislation, then you make your legislators the highest authority, and they will inevitably misuse that privilege.

So, don't be a fool, and never ever do such a stupid thing as allowing religious freedom.
The religious freedoms a reasonable man requires are already implied in the other freedoms.
That may be true. It is also true that all the freedoms in the bill of rights are included in property rights. The only reason for spelling out some specific freedom is to convince a social liberal that you are right in a specific case even though they don't agree with your principles.

If only we could somehow arrange for a lot of erotic shaped clouds to start floating over Indonesia. It'd be great, just to see if they's try to ban looking upwards.

Indonesian fundamentalist muslim groups are rallying to force government to pass a law that would ban, among other things, kissing in public.



http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/05/21/indonesia.porn.ap/

Allah forbid some teenager sees a pretty girl dancing or a couple kissing and gets an erection. That would be the end of the Muslim religion.
That's bullshit. Let's hope common sense prevails.

Indonesian fundamentalist muslim groups are rallying to force government to pass a law that would ban, among other things, kissing in public.



http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/05/21/indonesia.porn.ap/

Allah forbid some teenager sees a pretty girl dancing or a couple kissing and gets an erection. That would be the end of the Muslim religion.

Ah, but of course, "this isn't real Islam," and "those groups don't represent all Muslims" and "they're only a tiny minority."

And when they succeed in pressuring the government to impose this idiocy and that vast, silent majority of Muslims acquiesces and allows the "tiny minority" to control them, then they won't really be a "tiny minority" anymore, will they?

Ah, but of course, "this isn't real Islam," and "those groups don't represent all Muslims" and "they're only a tiny minority."

And when they succeed in pressuring the government to impose this idiocy and that vast, silent majority of Muslims acquiesces and allows the "tiny minority" to control them, then they won't really be a "tiny minority" anymore, will they?

Dude, the very same thing could be said of christians in the USA. Just replace "Islam" with "Christendom" and you have the same shit, only with different people in a different country.

Islam really has no monopoly on nutjobs and fucktards.

Just another reason as to why I'll never go to Indonesia.

Or a red state.

Dude, the very same thing could be said of christians in the USA. Just replace "Islam" with "Christendom" and you have the same shit, only with different people in a different country.

Islam really has no monopoly on nutjobs and fucktards.

No, "the very same thing" could not be said of Christians in the USA. There is no significant percentage of the US Christian population that supports, let alone demands, the imposition of religious codes of conduct. Still less have any such supporters achieved any tangible, lasting success--to the contrary, anything even covertly, let alone overtly, connected with public expressions of Christianity draws the implacable wrath and the bottomless legal resources of the Atheist Criminal Liberal Union and its judicial allies down upon it. So that dog ain't huntin' on my farm.

And beyond that, nobody has ever claimed that Islam has a "monopoly on nutjobs," and you are deliberately confusing the issue in so stating.

Indonesian fundamentalist muslim groups are rallying to force government to pass a law that would ban, among other things, kissing in public.

*shudder*

Theocracy is still fringe politics in Indonesia. I really hope it stays that way, but I'm not sure.

I don't really enjoy saying this ( being a religious man ) but the Freedom of Religion - when not loaded down with pressing restrictions - tends to leave all other Freedoms as utterly moot and pointless.
Not at all Boggie. In Europe we have many freedoms and they don't hurt freedom of religion one bit.

I hate religious people. Thus, from my point of view, religious people are wankers. :cool:
How are we wankers? I mean, those of us who aren't theocrats?

Man...It's things like this that make you wish life was one giant tabletop RPG and the DM will just say "thats it, game over, rocks fall, everyone dies."

Ever wonder what the earth's crust is made of? It's all the rocks that fall down, covering the planet and killing everyone every time the GM of earth says that.

No, "the very same thing" could not be said of Christians in the USA. There is no significant percentage of the US Christian population that supports, let alone demands, the imposition of religious codes of conduct.

Except for the increasingly likely overturn of Roe v. Wade, the restrictive policies against public funding of stem cell research and those "evolution is just a theory" stickers that come on science textbooks in parts of the South. A lot of religious conservatives support such measures. Not only Christians, of course, but since they are in the majority of religious Americans, they will have the highest profile. Not to mention that the President is quite zealous in his beliefs and tries to push for religious-based laws. They haven't succeeded in pushing for a broad religious code, but then, neither have the Indonesian religious conservatives to my knowledge.

Still less have any such supporters achieved any tangible, lasting success--to the contrary, anything even covertly, let alone overtly, connected with public expressions of Christianity draws the implacable wrath and the bottomless legal resources of the Atheist Criminal Liberal Union and its judicial allies down upon it. So that dog ain't huntin' on my farm.


The Atheist Criminal Liberal Union (LOLOLOL) isn't an omnipotent force, and they hardly win every battle they fight. If only it weren't for those left-leaning godless pinko judges, though! They would never win. Oh well.

Conservative Muslims are like Shakers. Only very loud, annoying, and not dying out.