NationStates Jolt Archive

in all seriousness,
i consider myself spiritual,i was an alter boy for 8 years(some residual affect i imagine)
but i cant think of an afterlife without my kids being part of it...or lack there of!

i think of many other faiths or lack of faith,and i cant imagine not believing that when i die my kids wont at some point be with me.

i dont realy understand atheism..do you really believe you turn to dirt and that is it?

i cant fathom that,i would prefer to delude myself then imagine that when i pass my kids wont at some point be with me...to hard to wrap my head around.


any one care to put my mind at ease...thanks in advance.

Thats why i don't think there are too many atheistic firefighters and soldiers. How do atheists, who believe that there is nothing but darkness after death not despair?

in all seriousness,
i consider myself spiritual,i was an alter boy for 8 years(some residual affect i imagine)
but i cant think of an afterlife without my kids being part of it...or lack there of!

i think of many other faiths or lack of faith,and i cant imagine not believing that when i die my kids wont at some point be with me.

i dont realy understand atheism..do you really believe you turn to dirt and that is it?

i cant fathom that,i would prefer to delude myself then imagine that when i pass my kids wont at some point be with me...to hard to wrap my head around.


any one care to put my mind at ease...thanks in advance.difficult. the only thing you can do is teach them how to live their life according to your principals. when they get to an age where they can make their own decisions, then inform them of the choices that can be made and let them choose the type of life they want to lead.

pray for them but do not force your choice on them.

You know, I have a similiar problem.

1. Like you, I can't really fandom that people would go to Hell for not believing in Jesus Christ, I mean there are alot of nice and really helpful and caring people out there that aren't Christians.

2. I really don't agree with pushing my religious view on other people, I believe that you should just worry about yourself, and live your life the best you can, and let everyone else do the same thing.

3. I don't agree with using fire and brimestone as a tool to convert people.

Just wanted to get that off my chest.

Thats why i don't think there are too many atheistic firefighters and soldiers. How do atheists, who believe that there is nothing but darkness after death not despair?
3 year on the voulenteer fire department ... way to make unfounded claims

In fact if this life is all we have to live why would we not work awfull hard inosents can live that one life?

in all seriousness,
i consider myself spiritual,i was an alter boy for 8 years(some residual affect i imagine)
but i cant think of an afterlife without my kids being part of it...or lack there of!

i think of many other faiths or lack of faith,and i cant imagine not believing that when i die my kids wont at some point be with me.

i dont realy understand atheism..do you really believe you turn to dirt and that is it?

i cant fathom that,i would prefer to delude myself then imagine that when i pass my kids wont at some point be with me...to hard to wrap my head around.


any one care to put my mind at ease...thanks in advance.
For me athiesm is the result because I dont really feel the nessessity to put blind faith in something I dont feel just because it is "Easier"

It is just where I fell

[corrected]
out of curiousity, what made you post this... in a thread where a person is looking for comfort and assurances for the spiritual welfare of his family?

3 year on the voulenteer fire department ... way to make unfounded claims

In fact if this life is all we have to live why would we not work awfull hard inosents can live that one life?
Just basing it on the fact that every other firefighter I know has some form of religion (About a year in a half into mine), and the prevlance of the firefighter's prayer.

out of curiousity, what made you post this... in a thread where a person is looking for comfort in the spiritual welfare of his family?
Because I am tired and worded it wrong ... now is closer to what I MENT to say

Thanks for pointing it out

Just basing it on the fact that every other firefighter I know has some form of religion (About a year in a half into mine), and the prevlance of the firefighter's prayer.
There are two in our department besides me when I quit ... in a small rural catholic farming town ...

I thought it was pretty good concidering how small the percentage is of actual athiests

could it just be that there are like only 10 percent not religous in your area and you happened to not catch one in the deparntment?

Thats why i don't think there are too many atheistic firefighters and soldiers. How do atheists, who believe that there is nothing but darkness after death not despair?

Slight correction, it's not a metter of believing that there is nothing but darkness after death, it's a matter of believing that there is nothing after death.

There is no conscious mind to percieve darkness, therefore there is no reason to despair.

And you'll find Atheists in all walks of life, Firefighters, Soldiers, Policemen, Window-cleaners, all the dangerous jobs. ;)

Because I am tired and worded it wrong ... now is closer to what I MENT to say

Thanks for pointing it out
for a moment there i was wondering why you turned so callow... edited mine to remove mistake. :cool:

for a moment there i was wondering why you turned so callow... edited mine to remove mistake. :cool:
Lol I have been working massive amount of hours with our new network design ... the last few days I have been totaly mis reading things and messing up what I say

Thats why i don't think there are too many atheistic firefighters and soldiers. How do atheists, who believe that there is nothing but darkness after death not despair?
Athiests,i think, despair least. Because we dotn belive that we burn or whatever means that we make the most of the time here.

Speaking as an agnostic/atheist (I haven't really decided yet), I find the idea that once this life is over, it's over to be rather comforting. To me, the idea of some etheral being forcing me to live for eternity holds far more threat than the idea of simply ceasing to exist at some point.

Why would you want to see this life as some form of test or even punishment and hope for a "next life" to be oh so much better if you pass? Why not enjoy the time you know you have, rather than wasting it hoping the next life will be better?

Speaking as an agnostic/atheist (I haven't really decided yet), I find the idea that once this life is over, it's over to be rather comforting. To me, the idea of some etheral being forcing me to live for eternity holds far more threat than the idea of simply ceasing to exist at some point.

Why would you want to see this life as some form of test or even punishment and hope for a "next life" to be oh so much better if you pass? Why not enjoy the time you know you have, rather than wasting it hoping the next life will be better?some people fear being consigned to the darkness.

besides, i don't consider this life as a test or punnishment (I know some do) but as one stage and the afterlife another... like a catapillar can become a butterfly, or a moth.

some people fear being consigned to the darkness.

besides, i don't consider this life as a test or punnishment (I know some do) but as one stage and the afterlife another... like a catapillar can become a butterfly, or a moth.

Who said anything about being consigned to darkness? My hopes for the time after my death are simply to not exist any more. No darkness, no light, no cold, no warmth, simply nothing.

Theists who believe in a heaven that is better than this existance can never fully enjoy this existance because they will constantly be subconsiouly registering how much better the next life will be than this.

Not entirely relevant but still.

In the end, I wouldn't want to live for ever, I wondn't mind living longer than umans do at the moment, a couple of centuaries would be nice, but not forever. I find the idea of oblivion not to be scary or despair worthy, its something that will happen, and I when it comes, that will be it.

Speaking as an agnostic/atheist (I haven't really decided yet), I find the idea that once this life is over, it's over to be rather comforting. To me, the idea of some etheral being forcing me to live for eternity holds far more threat than the idea of simply ceasing to exist at some point.

Why would you want to see this life as some form of test or even punishment and hope for a "next life" to be oh so much better if you pass? Why not enjoy the time you know you have, rather than wasting it hoping the next life will be better?


interesting pov.

i dont disagree with you on the point that it will be bliss to leave this world for once and for all.
dont mistake my feelings,i love my life,i have friends and family that have kept me from going away.

you may have mis read my meaning,i stated iwas an alter boy,and my dad was a deacon,it does not mean i was brainwashed into thinking i would either burn in hell or float about in heaven.
i have looked into other theories...i am just scared of atheism,because of maybe my upbringing,but mostly that as a parent,i cant imagine not having my kids by me.

i think that has thrown me for a loop,as i said,i was raised catholic,that does not mean i buy into the shit hook line and sinker.

i like budhism(sp) and other things,reincarnation...my point is...if this is all there is,1. what restrains me from being as evil as i am capable of,2.and what is the point of love if you just die and turn to dirt,why should i sacrifice for my children if in the end,i just rot and they aint there?

sorry to bring this subject up,but i have ranted enough about illegal immigrants,and thought,maybe i could find some differing points of view(pov)

ui can be really evil,but i am not,maybe because of my upbringing,maybe cause of the fear instilled in me from catholic school...but mostly,i think i went thru my life as a good guy for a reason,and i will get to see my children forever..corny,i know,but i could have had alot more fun,and ben a total shit if we just turn to dirt with no repercussions.

from a non practising,somewhat spiritual person,atheism scares me,i dont want to just die...i mean i dont care if i die at all....but i want to feel some connection to the people i love.

especially my kids...for me to just die and that is that...it makes me want to believe in god/afterlife.

any parent would know about the love you feel,and i dont want it to ever end.
corny,but it is a real feeling.

i guess i just dont understand the atheistic attitude(i may be incorrect) that we just turn to worm food and thats that.

i could die tomorrow and not give 2 shits...but there are people that love me and people i love,and to me...i hope it does not end as me being no more then worm food...but i may be wrong.

There is nothing so arrogant as the belief that one will live forever.

There is nothing so arrogant as the belief that one will live forever.

WOW, you took the words right out of my mouth!

As for the OP fears of atheism, I find that completely ridiculous. What are you affraid of?

To Secret aj Man:

If YOU believe in your god, in an afterlife where you will reconnect with your loved ones somehow, where you will be at peace somehow, that is all that matters. Why do you care what others believe? And why do you look down at others with pity or arrogance because they may not think as you? If that is what YOU believe and what comforts you, then go on, but don't force your beliefs on others.:mad:

As an atheist, I believe that there is nothing beyond our lives. We should live a full, just, happy life while we are here, and love as many people as we can, because once you die its over. Life is about now. I truly feel sorry for religious people who are so preoccupied with their "salvation" and death and hell and the concequences of their vengeful gods. If you spend your whole life thinking about death, your life won't be worth living.

I don't mind God, and can accept his existence. I quite like Jesus, Buddha and the Dalai Lama. I think Christians, Jews and Muslims are generally good people (Buddhists, Baha'i and Hindus, with the exception of a little social control that is on the way out, go without saying). I even think much of their mythology has a lot we could learn from.

But the mythical idea of Heaven as a location, when extended into a prediction for the future, irritates me to no end. A perfect place can exist in stories alone; there is no such thing as perfection in physical reality beyond absolute nothingness. I don't mind it being used as a literary device or a temporary redirection of our self-interest, but to make it the focus of your way of life is, to be blunt, evil. It embodies all 7 of the deadly sins:

It is disrespectful of what we have been given and strives to take more of it (Gluttony)
It desires the status of immortality that we have been told belongs to others (Envy)
It ignores the problems of the world at large due to their irrelevance on the spiritual scale (Sloth)
It places emphasis on the self and on self promotion, and refuses to allow questioning of the believer's own stance (Pride)
It seeks the ultimate in bringing one's self pleasure and satisfaction in the Perfect World (Lust)
In Hell, it wishes suffering on one's enemies (Wrath)
It promotes the eventual dominion of the particular group over both spiritual and material worlds (Avarice)

I will not be a part of such deliberate malice. When one engages upon these, even in supposed "Good" intent, it is only a matter of time before they consume him utterly.

in all seriousness,
i consider myself spiritual,i was an alter boy for 8 years(some residual affect i imagine)
but i cant think of an afterlife without my kids being part of it...or lack there of!

i think of many other faiths or lack of faith,and i cant imagine not believing that when i die my kids wont at some point be with me.

i dont realy understand atheism..do you really believe you turn to dirt and that is it?

There are many atheists who still believe in a form of life after death. There are also many theists who do not believe in life after death.


i cant fathom that,i would prefer to delude myself then imagine that when i pass my kids wont at some point be with me...to hard to wrap my head around.

It is good that you are honest about your personal bias. You are choosing to believe in whatever makes you feel happiest, and that is an understandable impulse.

Personally, I do not fear death, nor am I particularly bothered by the reality of my own mortality. I like being alive (very much!), and I am endlessly thankful to have this opportunity to experience life, but my happiness is in no way diminished by knowing that this experience is finite. Is a play less moving and entertaining because the curtain eventually comes down? Is a book less significant because it has a final page? Is a work of art less beautiful because the artist will, eventually, lay the last brush stroke?


any one care to put my mind at ease...thanks in advance.
Many people do indeed believe that our existence ends with our physical death. I am one such person. I don't know what you need to "put your mind at ease" about, however. You seem to have made up your mind that you will believe you live after death, so what more do you want? Are you bothered by doubts about your beliefs? Are you simply bothered because there are people who do not believe as you do?

in all seriousness,
i consider myself spiritual,i was an alter boy for 8 years(some residual affect i imagine)
but i cant think of an afterlife without my kids being part of it...or lack there of!

i think of many other faiths or lack of faith,and i cant imagine not believing that when i die my kids wont at some point be with me.

i dont realy understand atheism..do you really believe you turn to dirt and that is it?

i cant fathom that,i would prefer to delude myself then imagine that when i pass my kids wont at some point be with me...to hard to wrap my head around.


any one care to put my mind at ease...thanks in advance.I think you're scaring yourself into not thinking things through.

Sure, it would be hell to live without your children, but if you base your beliefs on the available evidence, you'll not be around after death. You won't miss them. You won't exist.
If you've ever been unconscious, you'll have some rough idea of what I'm talking about.

And then there's the concept of the afterlife.. How many sane, vibrant, hungry 80 year olds do you know? People get fed up with life. Imagine being around for 200 years. Most of us wouldn't know what to do with ourselves for that long. Now multiply that with some sevenhundred billion, and you'll have a glimpse of what a molecule of a drop in the ocean of eternal afterlife is.

Even if it isn't all eternal bliss (human minds thrive on adversity), you'll be reduced to a gibbering fool after a few hundred years. Everything will have crossed through the realms of utter pointlessness & into insanity. You'll be begging for it to stop.

If I believed in gods & an afterlife, I'd be very, very depressed. Thankfully I don't. So I have no qualms about doing dangerous jobs, and I'm inclinned to do so, becauuse my fellow humans also only have this one life. If I can help them hold on to it, I will.

i cant imagine not believing that when i die my kids wont at some point be with me.

i dont realy understand atheism..do you really believe you turn to dirt and that is it?

I'm sorry man, that is pretty sad. But you're right, religion is a form of dealing with the fact of pain, isolation, and death. I will never, ever see my brother again, because he is dead. He does not exist. That's just the way things are.

After you die, you lose all forms of consciousness. You won't be able to regret, or despair, or feel anything. You won't be able to think. You won't know that you're not going to be with your children or anything else. That's just the way it is.

Your realism strikes him as sarcasm.

Consider it a problem of miscommunication due to dissimilar frames of reference.

You know, I have a similiar problem.

1. Like you, I can't really fandom that people would go to Hell for not believing in Jesus Christ, I mean there are alot of nice and really helpful and caring people out there that aren't Christians.

2. I really don't agree with pushing my religious view on other people, I believe that you should just worry about yourself, and live your life the best you can, and let everyone else do the same thing.

3. I don't agree with using fire and brimestone as a tool to convert people.

Just wanted to get that off my chest.

Interesting thoughts. But certainly you realize that many Christians do not believe in a burning hell. The earliest sections of the Bible do not refer to a fire and brimstone hell, they refer to a lack of belief that will lead to a death in which the soul ceases to exist, shall become "worm food" and never have the vision of God. Fire and brimstone came along decades later as a fear factor that people could relate to. Who hasn't felt a burn and can relate to the pain for eternity? A much harder concept for people is for the soul to cease to exist and the loss of the vision of God...the knowing of God.

I agree that fire and brimstone is a barbaric way to lead people into belief. It takes a much higher level of faith to understand that the desire to know God should be stronger than any fear of flames.

If YOU believe in your god, in an afterlife where you will reconnect with your loved ones somehow, where you will be at peace somehow, that is all that matters. Why do you care what others believe? And why do you look down at others with pity or arrogance because they may not think as you? If that is what YOU believe and what comforts you, then go on, but don't force your beliefs on others.:mad:
interesting question (bold added by me)

As an atheist, I believe that there is nothing beyond our lives. We should live a full, just, happy life while we are here, and love as many people as we can, because once you die its over. Life is about now. I truly feel sorry for religious people who are so preoccupied with their "salvation" and death and hell and the concequences of their vengeful gods. If you spend your whole life thinking about death, your life won't be worth living.

maybe you could answer it.... (bold again added by me)



to the OP

delusion or not, if it makes you feel better who cares? maybe they are delusional, maybe not, I say live and let live. ;)

It takes a much higher level of faith to understand that the desire to know God should be stronger than any fear of flames...
... or desire for self-perpetuation (a higher level still?).

in all seriousness,
i consider myself spiritual,i was an alter boy for 8 years(some residual affect i imagine)
but i cant think of an afterlife without my kids being part of it...or lack there of!

i think of many other faiths or lack of faith,and i cant imagine not believing that when i die my kids wont at some point be with me.

i dont realy understand atheism..do you really believe you turn to dirt and that is it?

i cant fathom that,i would prefer to delude myself then imagine that when i pass my kids wont at some point be with me...to hard to wrap my head around.


any one care to put my mind at ease...thanks in advance.

They will be with you...6 feet under the ground.

Thats why i don't think there are too many atheistic firefighters and soldiers. How do atheists, who believe that there is nothing but darkness after death not despair?

Well, if you believe in an afterlife, and the atheists are right, don't you think expecting a heaven and receiving darkness (which you are not conscious of, because you are dead) is a little disappointing?

They will be with you...6 feet under the ground.


Ah, this must be the sarcastic snideness that somehow, despite all arguments made in favour of Atheism, still leaves it as the contemptible opinion of a smal minority, which is no danger whatsoever of becoming a majority or even politically and socially relevant...

... or desire for self-perpetuation (a higher level still?).

I see what you are saying but don't agree to an extent. As far as my "self" being perpetuated that isn't how I see it at all. I see all souls as part of a bigger "idea" if you would have it. I do not see my "self" in some happy wonderful place walking around as we know it. So perpetuing the "me" is not the case.

For my part, I don't see it the same as the OP. My children will be with me, but not "with" me as in by my side etc. If they are believers we are part of a whole. To be part of that whole you must be a believer and value your soul as God values it. Many assume the afterlife will be something we can relate to, and if that makes us happy and helps us find peace so be it. Does it really matter?

If one believes that they are being perpetuated in a form such as the life we have and it satisfies their mind there cannot be harm in that. God is not going to make a determination regarding if we got it right about eternity and hell, but only if our soul is faithful and our hearts believe.

When you delve into the teachings that God is inside all of us, that we are part of the whole it becomes clearer to me though harder to grasp in any sense of what we "know" as living beings. The 'saving' of the soul is what matters and yes I suppose could be construed as "self-perpetuation" but to me not in the form of "self" as many think of it.

Ah, this must be the sarcastic snideness that somehow, despite all arguments made in favour of Atheism, still leaves it as the contemptible opinion of a smal minority, which is no danger whatsoever of becoming a majority or even politically and socially relevant...

Ah, this must be the sarcastic snideness of some random guy/girl trying to sound so elitist that I am not sure what the hell he/she is saying.

Ah, this must be the sarcastic snideness of some random guy/girl trying to sound so elitist that I am not sure what the hell he/she is saying.

*smug*
The confidence of the side that knows it will be the safe majority in this millenium as well.

Some sides give comfort. Some sides give only cold shoulders.

The outcome of a popularity-contest between the sides is ever so predictable. Rationalism is as irrelevant now as it was during the French Revolution. Or the Crusades, for that matter.

*smug*
The confidence of the side that knows it will be the safe majority in this millenium as well.

Some sides give comfort. Some sides give only cold shoulders.

The outcome of a popularity-contest between the sides is ever so predictable. Rationalism is as irrelevant now as it was during the French Revolution. Or the Crusades, for that matter.Your point?

For my part, I don't see it the same as the OP. My children will be with me, but not "with" me as in by my side etc. If they are believers we are part of a whole. To be part of that whole you must be a believer and value your soul as God values it. Many assume the afterlife will be something we can relate to, and if that makes us happy and helps us find peace so be it. Does it really matter?
It is still you, whether or not the form you take is different. And it is the urge to retain that "you-ness" to which I refer.

God is not just some pathway to a post-death state of being. There is a real sense in which both the OP and your ideas see God and his "salvation" as a means to a personal end, and I (as a sort of Hinduish spiritualist) feel this to be somewhat disrespectful.

Thats why i don't think there are too many atheistic firefighters and soldiers. How do atheists, who believe that there is nothing but darkness after death not despair?
What's to despair about? Oblivion isn't punishment. It's not pain or suffering. It's just an end.

I don't see how religious people aren't all suicidal. I mean when you die you get your eternal reward.

Ya'll must not be real big believers if you haven't offed yourselves yet. Atheists think there's a big nothing at the end. May as well have our fun here and now.

Your point?

That an atheist can't have a point...

Personally, I am an Atheist, but I'm not here to tell you that your views are wrong; I'd just like to ask some questions...
Ehat do you think consigns people to Hell - back when Christianity was formed, values were far different from today.
E.g 0AD/0BC - A soldier = Hero
2006 - A soldier = Idiot with short hair and unable to do anything in life

Ah, this must be the sarcastic snideness that somehow, despite all arguments made in favour of Atheism, still leaves it as the contemptible opinion of a smal minority, which is no danger whatsoever of becoming a majority or even politically and socially relevant...
Thats ok I would rather go with what I feel then to do the oposite just because there are a lot of people doing it

Thats ok I would rather go with what I feel then to do the oposite just because there are a lot of people doing it

*nods*
Hardly a bad point of view, you have there.
Nothing wrong with feeling.

Personally, I am an Atheist, but I'm not here to tell you that your views are wrong; I'd just like to ask some questions...
Ehat do you think consigns people to Hell - back when Christianity was formed, values were far different from today.
E.g 0AD/0BC - A soldier = Hero
2006 - A soldier = Idiot with short hair and unable to do anything in life

Hahaha! Yeah.

That an atheist can't have a point...

Troll!

Hahaha! Yeah.

TROLL!

Ah, this must be the sarcastic snideness that somehow, despite all arguments made in favour of Atheism, still leaves it as the contemptible opinion of a smal minority, which is no danger whatsoever of becoming a majority or even politically and socially relevant...
Why does choice of spirituality need to be politically or socially relevant? Isn't it all a matter of personal comfort and decision? Why should any of us care what others believe?

TROLL!

w00p w00p

Troll war! :D

Why does choice of spirituality need to be politically or socially relevant? Isn't it all a matter of personal comfort and decision? Why should any of us care what others believe?
The only time I personaly care what another believes is when they try to fuck with my life using it as justification... personaly while there are a lot of combative athiests I dont see them doing such right now (maybe it is cause they dont have a set of rules handed down by an un-testable source ... personaly having that open ended source seems to be just asking for trouble)

Ah, this must be the sarcastic snideness that somehow, despite all arguments made in favour of Atheism, still leaves it as the contemptible opinion of a smal minority, which is no danger whatsoever of becoming a majority or even politically and socially relevant...

I live in a secular nation. Where do you live?

I live in a secular nation. Where do you live?

I'm supposed to be living in a secular nation...things are getting a little weird around here, though.

I'm supposed to be living in a secular nation...things are getting a little weird around here, though.

You can come here, if you like.

Think about this line of lyrics:

"Wait wait for the coming. of the end
Wait for the coming the killing the ending the plight of man
Deserving no mercy expelling by god's hand,
It's okay the ending it's over no more pain."

It's a lot clearer the image they're trying to convey in the actual song (Mudvayne - Prod), you can actually feel the release of existance after the chaotic "expelling by god's hand", and after it's done, it's truly done. No more pain. The ending. It's the end! It's over! It's all over! It's done with! Nothing left! You don't even feel the emptiness or the nothingness, because it's -all- over! It's DONE. COMPLETELY. OVER. IT'S ALL GONE. You don't have to experience or be burdened with ANYTHING ever again!

It's a really interesting feeling to try to imagine that, though it's impossible to do completely.

Personally I believe in God and that this life isn't the end, but it's understandably comforting to think it would be.

I'm agnostic so i'm unsure about the whole idea of an afterlife, but i don't despair about that at all. Thinking there may not be an afterlife reminds me how precious this life is. It reminds me to always cherish it because it's the only one we have. I would actually feel more sad if i went to heaven or hell and had to watch all those i leave behind continue to enjoy this world without me, never knowing until the day they die which ones would end up in the same place as me. Even if there is an afterlife, there is no guarantee that our loved ones will end up spending eternity with us. The thought of their being nothing after this life doesn't scare me. I'll be dead, i won't be conscious of anything i've left behind.

in all seriousness,
i consider myself spiritual,i was an alter boy for 8 years(some residual affect i imagine)
but i cant think of an afterlife without my kids being part of it...or lack there of!

i think of many other faiths or lack of faith,and i cant imagine not believing that when i die my kids wont at some point be with me.

i dont realy understand atheism..do you really believe you turn to dirt and that is it?

i cant fathom that,i would prefer to delude myself then imagine that when i pass my kids wont at some point be with me...to hard to wrap my head around.


any one care to put my mind at ease...thanks in advance.
Atheism is believing that there is no God, not that there is no afterlife. However, many atheists are materialists, believing that the material universe is all that exists.

Many people are unable to make themselves believe things just because they sound nice.

Atheism is believing that there is no God, not that there is no afterlife. However, many atheists are materialists, believing that the material universe is all that exists.

Many people are unable to make themselves believe things just because they sound nice.

*coughAtheismisnotbelievingthereisagodcough*

Woah...I gotta get off NS...my coughs are starting to sound like debates.

BELIEVER: Do you really prefer to believe this is all there is?

ATHEIST: I prefer to believe this isn't just a test.

*coughAtheismisnotbelievingthereisagodcough*

Woah...I gotta get off NS...my coughs are starting to sound like debates.

Keep beating that horse, Dinaverg. You'll convince us all eventually.

*coughAtheismisnotbelievingthereisagodcough*

Woah...I gotta get off NS...my coughs are starting to sound like debates.

Yeah well there's weak and strong atheism. The line is slightly blurred between agnosticism and weak atheism, so I just went for strong, since that's what people usually mean.

Yeah well there's weak and strong atheism. The line is slightly blurred between agnosticism and weak atheism, so I just went for strong, since that's what people usually mean.

There's not even a line between agnosticism and atheism. Agnosticism is a different kind of philosophy, it's not "I don't go either way" as most people like to think.

Agnosticism is the philosophical view that the truth values of certain claims—particularly theological claims regarding the existence of God, gods, or deities—are unknown, inherently unknowable, or incoherent, and therefore, (some agnostics may go as far to say) irrelevant to life. The term and the related agnostic were coined by Thomas Henry Huxley in 1869, and are also used to describe those who are unconvinced or noncommittal about the existence of deities as well as other matters of religion. The word agnostic comes from the Greek a (without) and gnosis (knowledge). Agnosticism is not to be confused with a view specifically opposing the doctrine of gnosis and Gnosticism—these are religious concepts that are not generally related to agnosticism.

Agnosticism is distinct from, but compatible with, atheism. It is also compatible with theism. This is because agnosticism is a view about knowledge concerning God, whereas theism and atheism are beliefs (or lack thereof) concerning God. For example, it is possible to believe in God but to believe that knowledge about God is not obtainable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

There's not even a line between agnosticism and atheism. Agnosticism is a different kind of philosophy, it's not "I don't go either way" as most people like to think.
Yeah I suppose. However, I think that claims can be disproven, providing that clear premises have been agreed upon. If the premises are proven to be contradictory through logic, they cannot all be true.

Yeah I suppose. However, I think that claims can be disproven, providing that clear premises have been agreed upon. If the premises are proven to be contradictory through logic, they cannot all be true.

Unfortunately, you have people who's premises consist of things like "God is outside logic", "God can defy physics", and "No rules apply to the supernatural".

i know this has already been said, but i just wanna repeat it to make sure

"Atheism is the state either of being without theistic beliefs, or of actively disbelieving in the existence of deities"

athiesm has absolutely nothing to do with believing in an afterlife or not

sorry to be a prick i just am an athiest who believes in an afterlife and it pisses me off alot:mad:

Unfortunately, you have people who's premises consist of things like "God is outside logic", "God can defy physics", and "No rules apply to the supernatural".
To which I say "plenty of things defy logic". They're called untrue things. In fact, that is how you tell that things are untrue. Of course, people won't understand/believe but that's why I don't debate religion. If people want to be slaves to ridiculous beliefs, that's their choice.

is there a religion that guarantees that you will be reunited with your children after death?

none spring to my mind. that would require that your children's choices in life have no bearing on their getting into heaven. what religion guarantees anyone a good outcome?

i find it much more scary to think that i might spend eternity without them because of some trivial mistake on their part-- they became baptists and it turns out that god is a catholic, for example. (i include everyone i love, not just my son, it seems a bit controlling to me to insist that he must follow me everywhere even after death)

that we all have a limited time on earth and must make the most of it doesnt scare me at all. i hate death but no religious belief mitigates the grief when someone you loves dies. after a while you might comfort yourself thinking that "the circle will be unbroken by and by" but thats just wishful thinking in any belief system that includes the possibility of hell.

i know this has already been said, but i just wanna repeat it to make sure

"Atheism is the state either of being without theistic beliefs, or of actively disbelieving in the existence of deities"

athiesm has absolutely nothing to do with believing in an afterlife or not

sorry to be a prick i just am an athiest who believes in an afterlife and it pisses me off alot:mad:
what sort of afterlife do you believe in? what mechanism is involved that determines what your afterlife will specifically be like?

what sort of afterlife do you believe in? what mechanism is involved that determines what your afterlife will specifically be like?

i just thought that there are absolute infinite possibilities as to what happens after death (if death exists) one of these (or infinite if u like) is oblivion, some are horrible some are great and some are totally unimaginable etc etc...
i'm just hopin for the best really:D

sorry to be a prick i just am an athiest who believes in an afterlife and it pisses me off alot:mad:
I wonder if you're really Atheist, if you don't mind me saying so. If there is an afterlife there must be some level in which you're dealing with people as spirits, and by the time you've gotten that far you're already well into Theist Animism territory.

I wonder if you're really Atheist, if you don't mind me saying so. If there is an afterlife there must be some level in which you're dealing with people as spirits, and by the time you've gotten that far you're already well into Theist Animism territory.
Belief in souls is not the same as belief in God. People don't have to fit predesigned patterns!

I wonder if you're really Atheist, if you don't mind me saying so. If there is an afterlife there must be some level in which you're dealing with people as spirits, and by the time you've gotten that far you're already well into Theist Animism territory.

i'm an athiest because i think it is unlikely that god exists, i don't think it is garaunteed, but i'd rather believe in no god. i thought this made me an athiest?

Belief in souls is not the same as belief in God. People don't have to fit predesigned patterns!
It's not as such, but it's certainly well within the catchment area of Theism.

To be honest, if you can believe that you have some sort of aetherial existence that is separable from the body then there is very little reason to not also believe in the existence of God save conscious decision.

What is God? It is the spiritual origin of life; the creator and father. If all people, children included, have a separable spirit, it must come from somewhere. There is nowhere in the human body that specifically creates this thing, so it must be something that has been attached from an existing source of these spirits. Hence, infusion of spirit by spirit. This is, to all intents and purposes, God-breathed creation.

i just thought that there are absolute infinite possibilities as to what happens after death (if death exists) one of these (or infinite if u like) is oblivion, some are horrible some are great and some are totally unimaginable etc etc...
i'm just hopin for the best really:D

if death exists? what do you mean by that?

what is it that persists after death? where does that come from?

so you believe we just kinda drift from life to life at random and "bad life" and "good life" happen at random just as good and bad happen to everyone in THIS life?

scary

It's not as such, but it's certainly well within the catchment area of Theism.

Not really, unless you consider souls to be gods. Theists believe in a god. Atheists are not Theists. Since when was belief bound by reason? If they believe there are souls and no gods, they're atheist.

It's not as such, but it's certainly well within the catchment area of Theism.

To be honest, if you can believe that you have some sort of aetherial existence that is separable from the body then there is very little reason to not also believe in the existence of God save conscious decision. The existence of God given the existence of an aetherial plane with direct link to this reality is pretty likely.
Not true. The only reason to believe both is because the beliefs are typically paired together. Belief in the existence of God requires belief in many other things, like the universe being managed by an intelligence, omniponence being possible etc. that have no connection to believing that the human mind can separate from its body.

It's not as such, but it's certainly well within the catchment area of Theism.

To be honest, if you can believe that you have some sort of aetherial existence that is separable from the body then there is very little reason to not also believe in the existence of God save conscious decision.

what relationship is there between an aetherial existence and god, that i can't say there is between god and say a can of baked beans though?

well what i mean is, why do you jump from saying there is an aetherial existence to there is a god? aren't there loads of possibilities as to whats going on? why does there always have to be an omnipotent mystical being that exists outside of time?

if death exists? what do you mean by that?

what is it that persists after death? where does that come from?

so you believe we just kinda drift from life to life at random and "bad life" and "good life" happen at random just as good and bad happen to everyone in THIS life?

scary

okay i dont have a clue what your saying, i just mean just cause you see people die doesnt mean they actually die and that this whole idea of death exists. similiar to the whole science and maths are just another religion, like catholocism and paganism.

Not true. The only reason to believe both is because the beliefs are typically paired together. Belief in the existence of God requires belief in many other things, like the universe being managed by an intelligence, omniponence being possible etc. that have no connection to believing that the human mind can separate from its body.
Sorry, I was in the process of editting in an add-on there.

If the spirit is something separable and not created by the body, the suggestion is that it was put there from an existing source of spirit, which in turn implies a creator God.

Sorry, I was in the process of editting in an add-on there.

If the spirit is something separable and not created by the body, the suggestion is that it was put there from an existing source of spirit, which in turn implies a creator God.

whoa wait a minute, where did this existing source of spirit come from? hey and maybe eternal spirits are made by the body, who knows?

Sorry, I was in the process of editting in an add-on there.

If the spirit is something separable and not created by the body, the suggestion is that it was put there from an existing source of spirit, which in turn implies a creator God.
If someone believed that, they might as well believe that the material universe was created by a God too. You're still working from the assumption that things have to be "made" or "put there".
One guy I saw on a program said that he thought there were souls made of subatomic particles that spend their time in the brain during life, but stay connected after leaving upon death, and that these particles make up the person's spirit.

It's not as such, but it's certainly well within the catchment area of Theism.

To be honest, if you can believe that you have some sort of aetherial existence that is separable from the body then there is very little reason to not also believe in the existence of God save conscious decision.

What is God? It is the spiritual origin of life; the creator and father. If all people, children included, have a separable spirit, it must come from somewhere. There is nowhere in the human body that specifically creates this thing, so it must be something that has been attached from an existing source of these spirits. Hence, infusion of spirit by spirit. This is, to all intents and purposes, God-breathed creation.
one can have superstitious beliefs without having any god be part of the equation. to you and me such beliefs imply the existance of a supernatural force sorting the universe out, but i dont suppose it HAS to be that way.

atheism doesnt have to be based on a rejection of the supernatural, it just makes more sense that way.

Sorry, I was in the process of editting in an add-on there.

If the spirit is something separable and not created by the body, the suggestion is that it was put there from an existing source of spirit, which in turn implies a creator God.

No, seriously. Since when did belief have to follow logical progressions?

atheism doesnt have to be based on a rejection of the supernatural, it just makes more sense that way.
Yeah people seem to think that atheism = materialism and dualism = theism, but that's not true.

okay i dont have a clue what your saying, i just mean just cause you see people die doesnt mean they actually die and that this whole idea of death exists. similiar to the whole science and maths are just another religion, like catholocism and paganism.
no really, except for elvis, when someone dies, they are DEAD.

perhaps there is some "soul" or "karma" (2 very different concepts) that persist after death. you seem to believe this. im asking just WHAT it is that you think persists after death and how you think it works.

you imply that its totally random. our <whatever> drifts around until it finds 2 people having sex and then jumps into the middle so that it can be fused into the newly-being-created human being. (or maybe floats around like a dandelion seed until it bumps into a recently pregnant woman whose fetus doesnt already have a <whatever> and fuses with it)

or maybe you think we all exist as ghosts, getting together in public parks and playing chess. clumps of subatomic particles drifting on the breeze until we come to rest against a tree or a building...

im just asking you to spell it out. its your "atheist with an afterlife" theory.

Here's an idea: there is basic "soul matter" equally distributed in the universe. When conception occurs, it pulls a lump of soul matter off (the gap is then instantaneously filled) and refines that soul matter into a soul.

(By the way I am agnostic with respect to afterlife; I don't actually believe this)

Hm...
well, i don't like the idea of burning for all eternity just for not believing in jesus.
christianity makes no sense, it contradicts itself too much.

whoa wait a minute, where did this existing source of spirit come from? hey and maybe eternal spirits are made by the body, who knows?
Doctors and biologists, perhaps? They've had more than enough practice in picking apart the human body to learn about their function on an organ level to discover if there's something that creates the removable mind, and so far there hasn't been anything to suggest that biologically.

We know enough about the structure and maturity of the human body to know that no aspect of it is the single source of sentience. And unless it is so, it is inseparable from the whole. If there isn't something inside me that uniquely defines my conscious self then my conscious self, if it is created by the body, must be the product of the rest of me, and is entirely subject to the physical and mental degredation that I suffer from as I age and die.

If, however, the spirit is not something created by me but something elsewhere then, logically, there must be an elsewhere from which the spirit originated and some mechanism by which it is applied to the body we hold now. Thus is God, as this source, implied.

There is, in fact, a chain of implication for what happens when the spirit is something created by me that results in God, the source of all spirit, as an emergent net-spirit itself, but that requires a great deal more formality than I've yet been able to put to paper...


It seems a little obscure to me that anyone thinks of independent spirits and God as ideas such that one can hold the former without the latter. They are implicitly linked by the virtue of their nature. Spiritual essence is not really compatible with Atheistic thought due to these implications, which is why I'm more than a little puzzled.

It seems a little obscure to me that anyone thinks of independent spirits and God as ideas such that one can hold the former without the latter. They are implicitly linked by the virtue of their nature. Spiritual essence is not really compatible with Atheistic thought due to these implications, which is why I'm more than a little puzzled.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=11015235&postcount=81

No, seriously. Since when did belief have to follow logical progressions?
When belief is based on liklihoods, it either follows logical progression or makes a false step in logical progression; it is not ignored.

If someone believed that, they might as well believe that the material universe was created by a God too. You're still working from the assumption that things have to be "made" or "put there".
One guy I saw on a program said that he thought there were souls made of subatomic particles that spend their time in the brain during life, but stay connected after leaving upon death, and that these particles make up the person's spirit.
Particles? If that's the case then it's not eternal, is it? It's not an afterlife, surely? It's merely another aspect of that person borne by the physical reality they occupy.

Dualism is not exactly Theistic in itself, but treating spirit as a metaphysical reality (rather than metaphorical, which can be done relatively well by the Atheist), as necessary for any speculation on the post-life experience, inevitably requires one to adopt a Theistic approach to it.

*snip*

Spirits have to come from a god?

Spirits have to come from a god?
They do if you define God to be the creator of Spirits. As many do.

They do if you define God to be the creator of Spirits. As many do.

And if you don't?

And if you don't?
Then how do you define it?

Then how do you define it?

*shrug* However one wants to. I could say my shoe is a god, and if I believed in it, that'd make me theist.

in all seriousness,
i consider myself spiritual,i was an alter boy for 8 years(some residual affect i imagine)
but i cant think of an afterlife without my kids being part of it...or lack there of!

i think of many other faiths or lack of faith,and i cant imagine not believing that when i die my kids wont at some point be with me.

i dont realy understand atheism..do you really believe you turn to dirt and that is it?

i cant fathom that,i would prefer to delude myself then imagine that when i pass my kids wont at some point be with me...to hard to wrap my head around.


any one care to put my mind at ease...thanks in advance.

I guess I'm just very brave

*shrug* However one wants to. I could say my shoe is a god, and if I believed in it, that'd make me theist.
Is it the belief in the shoe or the acknowledgement of the shoe as God that makes you so? Would you still be a theist if others believed the shoe you believe in to be God while you did not?

Is it the belief in the shoe or the acknowledgement of the shoe as God that makes you so? Would you still be a theist if others believed the shoe you believe in to be God while you did not?

Uhhh...the belief. If I were to consider my shoe as a god, but also didn't believe in it's existence (or that of any other god), I'd be atheist...And no, they'd be theist, but if you didn't believe in a god, you'd be atheist.

If I were to consider my shoe as a god, but also didn't believe in it's existence (or that of any other god), I'd be atheist...And no, they'd be theist, but if you didn't believe in a god, you'd be atheist.
*Emo Neo voice* You didn't answer my question.

The second one, I mean.

If you do not believe in the existence of the shoe then it is obvious that you are a disbeliever in whatever the shoe is, but if you do believe in the shoe, who then decides whether or not you are a believer on that basis? Is it a label you take by choice? Is it a communal decision, based on convention? Or is it something each individual around you can decide on for themselves?

Spirits have to come from a god?
spirits have to come from somewhere

they have to be made of something

they have to have some means of living

until you make some definitions all anyone can do is guess at what you mean. then its easy to discredit any particular guess.

if you have some belief in spirits you need to define it before we can talk to you about it.

spirits have to come from somewhere

they have to be made of something

they have to have some means of living


That assumes spirits follow the same laws as physical bodies: causality, substance, and sustinence. Given that our current science is good at finding and describing things that follow physical laws, yet haven't discovered spirits, then spirits are likely not bound by those laws.

until you make some definitions all anyone can do is guess at what you mean. then its easy to discredit any particular guess.

if you have some belief in spirits you need to define it before we can talk to you about it.

From Dictionary.com:
1. The vital principle or animating force within living beings.
2. Incorporeal consciousness.

This seems to sum it up well, IMO, but I'm sure others may want to add something or debate the meaning further. So lets just use it as a starting point for further discussion.

interesting pov.

i dont disagree with you on the point that it will be bliss to leave this world for once and for all.
dont mistake my feelings,i love my life,i have friends and family that have kept me from going away.

you may have mis read my meaning,i stated iwas an alter boy,and my dad was a deacon,it does not mean i was brainwashed into thinking i would either burn in hell or float about in heaven.
i have looked into other theories...i am just scared of atheism,because of maybe my upbringing,but mostly that as a parent,i cant imagine not having my kids by me.

i think that has thrown me for a loop,as i said,i was raised catholic,that does not mean i buy into the shit hook line and sinker.

i like budhism(sp) and other things,reincarnation...my point is...if this is all there is,1. what restrains me from being as evil as i am capable of,2.and what is the point of love if you just die and turn to dirt,why should i sacrifice for my children if in the end,i just rot and they aint there?

sorry to bring this subject up,but i have ranted enough about illegal immigrants,and thought,maybe i could find some differing points of view(pov)

ui can be really evil,but i am not,maybe because of my upbringing,maybe cause of the fear instilled in me from catholic school...but mostly,i think i went thru my life as a good guy for a reason,and i will get to see my children forever..corny,i know,but i could have had alot more fun,and ben a total shit if we just turn to dirt with no repercussions.

from a non practising,somewhat spiritual person,atheism scares me,i dont want to just die...i mean i dont care if i die at all....but i want to feel some connection to the people i love.

especially my kids...for me to just die and that is that...it makes me want to believe in god/afterlife.

any parent would know about the love you feel,and i dont want it to ever end.
corny,but it is a real feeling.

i guess i just dont understand the atheistic attitude(i may be incorrect) that we just turn to worm food and thats that.

i could die tomorrow and not give 2 shits...but there are people that love me and people i love,and to me...i hope it does not end as me being no more then worm food...but i may be wrong.

Are you trying to say that you feel you can only love your children if they will be with you forever? I somehow doubt that.

Do you think that love is somehow devalued if it ends with your death?

And being atheist does not automatically mean that you have a desire to hurt other or to "be evil", as you put it. If you need the fear of the afterlife to refrain from hurting others, then I think the idea of an afterlife does serve a purpose. I've never had that fear, and I never needed it to be a compassionate, feeling, helpful person. I'm there for others because I feel like it, not because somebody promises a reward after I die, or threatens to punish me.

I don't see death as becoming worm food. That's only my body. My life, my personality, my feelings, my character, all that will be gone long before the first worm takes a bite. It hopefully will simply have stopped existing.

Thats why i don't think there are too many atheistic firefighters and soldiers. How do atheists, who believe that there is nothing but darkness after death not despair?

Atheists don't believe there is nothing but darkness after death, but that there is nothing at all after death. One can experience "darkness", and that can be scary, but there is no reason to fear "nothing".

in all seriousness,
i consider myself spiritual,i was an alter boy for 8 years(some residual affect i imagine)
but i cant think of an afterlife without my kids being part of it...or lack there of!

i think of many other faiths or lack of faith,and i cant imagine not believing that when i die my kids wont at some point be with me.

i dont realy understand atheism..do you really believe you turn to dirt and that is it?

i cant fathom that,i would prefer to delude myself then imagine that when i pass my kids wont at some point be with me...to hard to wrap my head around.


any one care to put my mind at ease...thanks in advance.

I actually find the "realistic" view of the afterlife to be much more beautiful and romantic than those put forth by organised religion. Religion, like much of the terrible psychology done in the 18th and 19th centuries, hides all the interesting things in places where we can never experience or measure them. It's just so much more interesting to think of pre-birth and post-death as continuations of the same experience, but there's a catch - it doesn't involve singular, discrete sentience.

What I mean by that is you can experience both your primordial past and your inescapable future in the same reference frame (IE you don't have to turn into a spirit first). When you think about what you are and where you came from, the collection of atoms in your body is incredibly diverse and astoundingly ancient. A cell in the tip of your finger might bind that carbon atom from the apple you just ate to a carbon atom that was present in your mothers egg at her own birth. The oxygen you take in with each breath almost assuredly contains particles from a wind that swept the african savannah, particles carried to the moon and back, and particles exhaled at Martin Luther Kings deathbead, and probably even your own birth.

And it goes back even further. Most of what your body is made of has seen the formation of our sun - some have seen the formation of dozens of others, from the farthest reaches of our galaxy.

And just as this is your history, this is also your future, where you are just a witness to a single instant in their respective lives. When you die, nobody really knows if you "go to heavon" or not. We DO, however, know that you go on to become dozens of stars, millions of living organisms, and tens of billions of years old. Now that is something I can relate to. I know where I come from, I know where I'm going, and death scares me less than birth does. And all of this from being an aetheist!

*SNIP*

i like budhism(sp) and other things,reincarnation...my point is...if this is all there is,1. what restrains me from being as evil as i am capable of,2.and what is the point of love if you just die and turn to dirt,why should i sacrifice for my children if in the end,i just rot and they aint there?

*SNIP*


Don't get me wrong here, though I am totally honest when I say this.
If you can't be kind to others and do unselfish things for others without a reiligion to tell you how/why then you're just a retard.
I'm an atheist myself and I'm a pretty kind guy. I like to help others and I feel really fuzzy and warm inside when I can put a smile on someones face. I don't need some obscure and repressing book to tell me to do so. Perhaps because, unlike some poor christians, I'm not whipped to do good to avoid to go to hell. I just do it because I like it. And because there's only this single life we get...better make it fun while it lasts.

Don't get me wrong here, though I am totally honest when I say this.
If you can't be kind to others and do unselfish things for others without a reiligion to tell you how/why then you're just a retard.
I'm an atheist myself and I'm a pretty kind guy. I like to help others and I feel really fuzzy and warm inside when I can put a smile on someones face. I don't need some obscure and repressing book to tell me to do so. Perhaps because, unlike some poor christians, I'm not whipped to do good to avoid to go to hell. I just do it because I like it. And because there's only this single life we get...better make it fun while it lasts.

Actually, you probably do it because your ancestors did it and were more successful than those who were not reciprocating altruists. Yay for evolution!! =D

That word "reciprocating" is really sneaky though. It means you're MUCH more likely to be nice when you can see yourself in their shoes, and most people actually get angry if their good deads don't go unreciprocated. To do a thought experiment: If you made a custom wheelchair by hand, then later broke both of your legs in a terrible accident, you would feel justified in being pissed if the guy didn't give the wheelchair back (lets say he's better and is now using it as a plant stand). You weren't actively thinking about it at the time, but you don't forget that you did something nice, and you don't forget who you did it for. We can't explain why this is without delving heavily into evolution. =)

spirits have to come from somewhere

they have to be made of something

they have to have some means of living

until you make some definitions all anyone can do is guess at what you mean. then its easy to discredit any particular guess.

if you have some belief in spirits you need to define it before we can talk to you about it.

so you believe that spirits are physical basically, and that they effect other spirits, they have a cause etc

what if you can't know what a spirit is with your mind because your mind is physical and spirits aren't or something. (dunno whether the mind is actually physical myself). you could even go so far as to say spirits are gods in their own right, and that they made themselves or something weird:confused:

Atheists don't believe there is nothing but darkness after death, but that there is nothing at all after death.
Correction: the majority of atheists believe that an individual will not experience anything following their own death, because death represents the time at which the individual's conscience ceases. However, atheists are (generally speaking) in agreement that plenty of things will continue to happen after they die. This may seem nit-picky, but it's actually a pretty important point.

Atheists tend to lack the death-denial syndrome common among religious or spiritual believers, but what I find more interesting is the tendency for atheists to think more about what the world will continue to do after they die. Afterlife believers are, logically, busy thinking about what their soul-self will be up to after they pass away, while non-afterlifers think about what the physical world will continue to do after they pass away.