NationStates Jolt Archive

Read here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrin_independence_referendum%2C_2006)

Now, this isn't 100% final, but it's most likely that Montenegro has voted to leave its union with Serbia. They needed 55% Yes vote to leave, and it appears that anywhere between 55.3% to 55.8% voted so. Not the largest majority ever, but a majority none the less

Hello, Republic of Montenegro. Nice to meet you.

Excellent, another poverty-stricken third world country for us to save from the terrorists! Our military has yet another opportunity to spread freedom and democracy. God Bless America!

Excellent, another poverty-stricken third world country for us to save from the terrorists! Our military has yet another opportunity to spread freedom and democracy. God Bless America!

Third World?

Oh, they do peace keeping too btw...

http://www.balkanpeace.org/hed/archive/jan06/hed7313.shtml

Excellent, another poverty-stricken third world country for us to save from the terrorists! Our military has yet another opportunity to spread freedom and democracy. God Bless America!

is that the best you can do? fuck off

Excellent, another poverty-stricken third world country for us to save from the terrorists! Our military has yet another opportunity to spread freedom and democracy. God Bless America!

Indeed!

is that the best you can do? fuck off

The same applies mate.

You may not like what the guy/lady says but at least come back with something more inventive.

Instead of Wiki, here's a news report on it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5003220.stm

Montenegro 'chooses independence'

Montenegro has narrowly voted to secede from its union with Serbia, according to unofficial projections.

Indications are that 55.3% of voters elected to secede from Serbia. The pro-independence bloc needs to win 55% of the vote to succeed.

Predrag Bulatovic, the opposition leader who spearheaded the campaign against integration, said his camp would not admit defeat based on an "arbitrary estimate by a monitoring group".

"The results are not final until they are confirmed by the state referendum commission," he said, urging the government to ask its supporters to leave the streets.

Polls opened early on Sunday morning and turnout was said to have surpassed a record 85%.

Montenegro is hardly third world.

It is poverty stricken, but in a position where it has a good chance at rapid development.

It has already had it's fair share of problems, so yeah.

Still, I am always in two-minds about such things. On one hand, people should be able to rule themselves, on the other, it creates divisions, splits and conflict.

so what do montenegans call their country? cause there is no way that it's actually called montenegro in their language.

Whoa, chill everyone, my post wasn't serious ...

yo!

Excellent, another poverty-stricken third world country for us to save from the terrorists! Our military has yet another opportunity to spread freedom and democracy. God Bless America!
I hope you're not serious.

It is hard to find one good source on the ethnic makeup of Montenegro, so I had to turn to Wikipedia as a source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro

It is said that many Montenegrins are of mixed Serb and Montenegrin descent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrins

Might make another post later.

Yay, less money for all!

so what do montenegans call their country? cause there is no way that it's actually called montenegro in their language.

Crna Gora

It is hard to find one good source on the ethnic makeup of Montenegro

Out of curiosity, why does it matter?

They are people and they have decided that they want to return to being an independent country again, after nearly a century of foreign rule.

What their ethnicity is is of no relevance whatsoever!

Crna Gora

ah, excellent. now how does one pronounce the first word? and why are we english speakers calling it 'black mountain' in italian or something?

ah, excellent. now how does one pronounce the first word? and why are we english speakers calling it 'black mountain' in italian or something?

Looks similar to чёрная гора (chyornaya gora), which would be Russian for "black mountain". (Just shoot a vowel into "crna". The Serbs call their country Srbija.) It's a Slavic language, so I'm guessing, based on that we call it Montenegro, that they do indeed call their country "Black Mountain".

ah, excellent. now how does one pronounce the first word? and why are we english speakers calling it 'black mountain' in italian or something?

Crna Gora means Black Mountain in Serbain. I have no clue how to pronounce it :p

On a slightly related note, Montenegro is called by its Venetian name (the Venetian language), which is Montenegro. No clue why we don't call it Black Mountain.

Well, let's see whether both Serbia and those who voted against seperation will accept the result.

And after that...let's get them into the EU why don't we. It's not like we're not letting everyone else in, is it. ;)

Read here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrin_independence_referendum%2C_2006)

Now, this isn't 100% final, but it's most likely that Montenegro has voted to leave its union with Serbia. They needed 55% Yes vote to leave, and it appears that anywhere between 55.3% to 55.8% voted so. Not the largest majority ever, but a majority none the less
Monte-negro?

Are you rascist?

Monte-negro?

Are you rascist?

What?

What?
What ain't no country I ever heard of. They speak English in What?

I'm surprised no one has accused them of treason yet.

No clue why we don't call it Black Mountain.

Probably the same reason we don't call Vermont "Green Mountain". Vermont just sounds more poetic.

Anyway, yay for self determination!

What ain't no country I ever heard of. They speak English in What?
What?

It's the new confederacy! It's the civil war in Serbia! Cheers!

What?
English Muthafucka! DO YOU SPEAK IT?!

What ain't no country I ever heard of. They speak English in What?
Well, we can presume that they do, as "What?" is an ENGLISH question, but who knows? They could speak a mixture of spanish, martian, japanese, russian, german and basque.

so what do montenegans call their country? cause there is no way that it's actually called montenegro in their language.
Why?

English Muthafucka! DO YOU SPEAK IT?!
...um...I forget what I'm supposed to say.

Well, we can presume that they do, as "What?" is an ENGLISH question, but who knows? They could speak a mixture of spanish, martian, japanese, russian, german and basque.
*shakes head*

Go re-watch Pulp Fiction.

...um...I forget what I'm supposed to say.
Say 'what' again! Say 'what' again! I dare you! I double-dare you, muthafucka! Say 'what' one more goddamn time!

Say 'what' again! Say 'what' again! I dare you! I double-dare you, muthafucka! Say 'what' one more goddamn time!

ok. What ?

Probably the same reason we don't call Vermont "Green Mountain". Vermont just sounds more poetic.

though now that english is gonna be the official language...

i just hope and pray it does not turn into another sickening display of inhumanity toward innocent women and children.

shame on bosnia/serbia/croatia for the past insanity targeting innocent former neighbors.

self determination is great...for everyone...just allow it and be neighbors is all i wish for.

What happens to the world cup? arent they already qualified?

:eek:

(great, two crappy euro teams in the cup to upset everyone's brackets. damn)

Question: who in American literature famously got a medal from the bravely struggling Montenegrins?*


* or not, as the case may be.

ok. What ?

*Shoots Aryavartha in the leg* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPHuE5pDlEs&search=Pulp%20fiction%20what)

I take it that the NS community doesn't really care that there's a new country to insult on the block :p

Does NS even have any Montenegrin players?

Learn more about the Ethnic makeup of The Republic of Montenegro and its Language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrin_language


Learn more about the History, Geography, Religion, Language and Politics of The Republic of Montenegro according to the folowing source.

http://www.montenegro.org/glance.html

I love History, Geography, Statistics, Accounting, Bookkeeping, Systems, Math, Economics, Politics,
and I am a Copy Holic.

Crna Gora
Wasn't that, that planet where that snake-lady was from in MIB2?!!?:confused:

Crna Gora would sound about like "Curnah Gorah". But you'll probably call it Montenegro. I wonder if the Japanese will call it "Kuroyama"...

BTW, Hello, Montenegro! How are you? ^_^

Third World?

Oh, they do peace keeping too btw...

http://www.balkanpeace.org/hed/archive/jan06/hed7313.shtml
That's cool.
Good to see lots of countries are helping with the massive task that is peace keeping.

so what do montenegans call their country? cause there is no way that it's actually called montenegro in their language.

Yeah. This is an Eastern European country but it has a Spanish sounding name. How come?

I take it that the NS community doesn't really care that there's a new country to insult on the block :p

Does NS even have any Montenegrin players?

I have Montenegrin ancestry... although that's centuries back. But that's the worse part of me, heh. :P

EDIT: Wait, that's wrong. I've got serb ancestry from Montenegro. Not actually Montenegrin, whatever that is. :/

*gestures emptily*

Crna Gora would sound about like "Curnah Gorah". But you'll probably call it Montenegro. I wonder if the Japanese will call it "Kuroyama"...


No. In Japanese it is called モンテネグロ [Mo-n-te-ne-gu-ro]

Probably the same reason we don't call Vermont "Green Mountain". Vermont just sounds more poetic.


Actually, technically speaking 'Vermont' translates to 'Worm mountain'. For the name to be 'Green mountain', it would have to be 'Vertmont' (though strictly speaking Montvert would be a better grammatical construction).

Anyway, back to Crna Gora...

What worries me about this referendum result is that the majority of ethnic Montenegrins and Serbs may in fact have voted against independence.

Let's look at the ethnic makeup according to the 2003 census:

Montenegrins: 267,669 (43.16%)
Serbs: 198,414 (31.99%)
Bosniaks: 48,184 (7.77%)
Albanians: 31,163 (5.03%)
Muslims: 24,625 (3.97%)
Croats: 6,811 (1.1%)
Romas and Egyptians: 2,826 (0.46%)

So Montenegrins and Serbs together comprise some 75% of the population. Other main ethnic groups are about 18.5%, and some 6.5% are unaccounted for (or perhaps consider themselves 'mixed' - a remnant of the people who used to describe themselves as 'Yugoslav' in censuses before '91)

We can probably assume that virtually all of the people who identify themselves as Serbs wanted to stay with Serbia and voted against, while virtually all of the Bosniaks, Albanians, Muslims and Croats have little interest in staying with Serbia given recent history and voted for.

So we have 32% voting against and 18% voting for. That's 50% of the population. To reach 55% voting for independence, 86% of people who identify themselves as Montenegrin [37% of the total population] had to vote for (and 14% against).

'Wonderful' you say. "A victory for self-determination! Clearly a majority of Montenegrins - both as defined by ethnicity and residence - wish independence". But as ever in the Balkans, it's not that simple.

As far as most Serbs are concerned, there's no difference between a Serb and a Montenegrin. And for once they're not just being mad nationalists. Both groups speak the same language, use the same alphabet and - unlike Croats and Bosnians - are part of the same Serb Orthodox Church (notwithstanding an attempt to found a breakaway Montenegrin Orthodox Church).

So under their method of distinguishing ethnic groups in Montenegro... if Serbs and Montenegrins are 75% of the population, and if 14% of Montenegrins (which is 6% of the total population of Montenegro) vote against independence, and if you count these as a single ethnic group....

Well, you can be damn sure that some nationalist back in Belgrade is going to point out that a majority of 'Serbs' (under their definition) voted against independence - 50.7 by my reckoning - and that the referendum only passed thanks to the votes of Serb-hating ethnic minorities.

Of course, the irony here is that despite the ethnic similarity between Serbs and Montenegrins, the latter have a far better claim on independence if you base the latter in terms of historical continuity of their state. Montenegro can reasonably claim to have been independent from 1360-1918 (ask me about the Prince-Bishops of Montenegro, where succession had to pass from Uncle to Nephew, one of these days) - a far longer continuous history of independence from the medieval to the modern era than can be claimed by any other constituent part of former Yugoslavia. 1918-2006 seems a blip in comparison.

Which means that, somewhat oddly for the Balkans, Montenegro's claim to independence rests far more strongly on the basis of historical independence than it does on the basis of ethnicity.

Please note that nothing in this post is meant to endorse any Montenegrin or Serbian POV - I'm merely trying to untangle the complexities of the situation rather than side with anyone.

As to the World Cup football team.... I'll imagine there's no need to change from a single 'Serbia and Montenegro' side. There's ample precedent with the 'representation of Czechs and Slovaks' and 'Commonwealth of Independent States' sides that represented Czechoslovakia and the USSR post-breakup.

Shame this had to happen a day after the Eurovision Song Contest.

Shame this had to happen a day after the Eurovision Song Contest.

I don't think Montenegro would have come up with a heavy death-metal band a few days before Eurovision so that they could beat Lordi.

Also, this doesn't take effect until January 1st, 2007 (they're transitioning towards independence now)

Interesting that Serbia has confirmed that they will accept Montenegro's independence. How civilized of them.

Again, I'm very surprised that no one has accused them of treason. Or is it only North Americans who want to secede that are traitors?

so what do montenegans call their country? cause there is no way that it's actually called montenegro in their language.

Czrno gora. It means 'black mountain', just like the Venetian 'monte negro'.

Interesting that Serbia has confirmed that they will accept Montenegro's independence. How civilized of them.

Again, I'm very surprised that no one has accused them of treason. Or is it only North Americans who want to secede that are traitors?


Maybe you missed the three other bloody civil wars Serbia fought against parts that tried to break away and were called traitors? I mean..it was only the first half of the 90s...even if it did take a Presidental scandal for peacekeepers to finally be deployed in the area..and NATO to be used in Kosovo...

Maybe you missed the three other bloody civil wars Serbia fought against parts that tried to break away and were called traitors? I mean..it was only the first half of the 90s...even if it did take a Presidental scandal for peacekeepers to finally be deployed in the area..and NATO to be used in Kosovo...

No, I certainly remember that. However, the countries splitting off before being called traitors has nothing to do with the fact that no one on this board has yet called the Montenegrins traitors.

Anyway, my point is that whenever a North American expresses a desire for their polity (Quebec or the US South for example) to leave their country they're denounced as traitors and vile heretic scum. I'm a bit perplexed as to why that sentiment applies to North Americans and not Europeans.

Actually, technically speaking 'Vermont' translates to 'Worm mountain'. For the name to be 'Green mountain', it would have to be 'Vertmont' (though strictly speaking Montvert would be a better grammatical construction).

Oui, je sais qu'on dit "mont vert" en français, mais je crois que peut etre c'est "vert mont" en acadien ou un autre patois local. A l'autre cote, peut etre c'est une deformation anglaise.

Again, I'm very surprised that no one has accused them of treason. Or is it only North Americans who want to secede that are traitors?

Well, unlike the CSA, Montenegro has, as stated before, a long and verifiable tradition of independence. Quebec was not a full-fleged state either, but rather a colony.

No. In Japanese it is called モンテネグロ [Mo-n-te-ne-gu-ro]

Thanks. I do know katakana, though, but thanks. :)

Well, unlike the CSA, Montenegro has, as stated before, a long and verifiable tradition of independence. Quebec was not a full-fleged state either, but rather a colony.

Indeed. If anything, Montenegro is the country in the Balkans with the best claim to independence besides ethnicity.

Well, unlike the CSA, Montenegro has, as stated before, a long and verifiable tradition of independence. Quebec was not a full-fleged state either, but rather a colony.

So, are you saying only states that exist now, or existed in the past are legitimate?

And what is the time requirement for this? Texas and Vermont were independent for about 10 years, or don't they count?

I'm rather confused at what point one stops being a "traitor" for wanting independence.

I'm rather confused at what point one stops being a "traitor" for wanting independence.

Once you do become independent. Then you can say "bugger off" to those who call you traitor.:cool:

So, are you saying only states that exist now, or existed in the past are legitimate?

And what is the time requirement for this? Texas and Vermont were independent for about 10 years, or don't they count?

I'm rather confused at what point one stops being a "traitor" for wanting independence.


Why does it even matter?

The american Pioneers themselves were "traitors" when they broke off from their european countries. Traitor is a very subjective term I think.

so what do montenegans call their country? cause there is no way that it's actually called montenegro in their language.

why not?

It sounds Italian rather than Slavonic. Which rings slightly of past exploitation. Then again, newly independent states tend to be most critical of their most recent rulers. Then again, the link with Serbia was not really that hard on the Black Mountain.

Ach, who knows

Why does it even matter?

It matters about as much as anything on NS General, which is not a whole lot. Self determination is one of my "things", and I simply can't understand why people call people "traitors" simply for wanting their own country. I also find the idea that you have to win independence through armed struggle barbaric.

El Bumpo!