NationStates Jolt Archive


It seems as if "God" sends mixed messages

New alchemy
21-05-2006, 03:19
Should we kill?
Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."
vs.

Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."
For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see "Murder, He Wrote", chapter 27 (Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).

Should we tell lies?
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
vs.

I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

Should we steal?
Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."
vs.

Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."
Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."
I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

Shall we keep the sabbath?
Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy."
Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
Numbers 15:32,36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
vs.

Isaiah 1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity."
John 5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day."
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."
Shall we make graven images?
Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."
Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."
vs.

Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."
I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"
Are we saved through works?
Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."
vs.

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."
The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."

Should good works be seen?
Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works."
I Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that . . . they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."
vs.

Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in secret."
Matthew 23:3,5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works. . . . all their works they do for to be seen of men."
Should we own slaves?
Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."
Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."
Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."
Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."
vs.

Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."
Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."
Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.

Does God change his mind?
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
vs.

Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)

Are we punished for our parents' sins?
Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."
vs.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
Is God good or evil?
Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."
vs.

Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."
Does God tempt people?
James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
vs.

Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."
Is God peaceable?
Romans 15:33 "The God of peace."
Isaiah 2:4 ". . . and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
vs.

Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war."
Joel 3:9-10 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."
Was Jesus peaceable?
John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you."
Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ."
Luke 2:14 " . . . on earth peace, good will toward men."
vs.

Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, . . . he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Was Jesus trustworthy?
John 8:14 "Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true."
vs.

John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."
"Record" and "witness" in the above verses are the same Greek word (martyria).

Shall we call people names?
Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." [Jesus speaking]
vs.

Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind." [Jesus speaking]
Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."
Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father."
I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."
vs.

Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."
Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."
How many Gods are there?
Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."
vs.

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."
Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil."
I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
It does no good to claim that "Let us" is the magisterial "we." Such usage implies inclusivity of all authorities under a king's leadership. Invoking the Trinity solves nothing because such an idea is more contradictory than the problem it attempts to solve.

Are we all sinners?
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."
vs.

Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright."
Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."
Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
How old was Ahaziah?
II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."
vs.

II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."
Should we swear an oath?
Numbers 30:2 "If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath . . . he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth."
Genesis 21:22-24,31 " . . . swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me . . . And Abraham said, I will swear. . . . Wherefore he called that place Beersheba ["well of the oath"]; because there they sware both of them."
Hebrews 6:13-17 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself . . . for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath."
See also Genesis 22:15-19, Genesis 31:53, and Judges 11:30-39.

vs.

Matthew 5:34-37 "But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven . . . nor by the earth . . . . Neither shalt thou swear by thy head . . . . But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."
James 5:12 ". . . swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."
When was Jesus crucified?
Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."
vs.

John 19:14-15 "And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out . . . crucify him."
It is an ad hoc defense to claim that there are two methods of reckoning time here. It has never been shown that this is the case.

Shall we obey the law?
I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourself to every ordinance of man . . . to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors."
Matthew 22:21 "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's." See also Romans 13:1,7 and Titus 3:1.
vs.

Acts 5:29 "We ought to obey God rather then men."
How many animals on the ark?
Genesis 6:19 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark."
Genesis 7:8-9 "Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah."
Genesis 7:15 "And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life."
vs.

Genesis 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."
Were women and men created equal?
Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
vs.

Genesis 2:18,23 "And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. . . . And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."
Were trees created before humans?
Genesis 1:12-31 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: . . . And the evening and the morning were the third day. . . . And God said, Let us make man in our image . . . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
vs.

Genesis 2:5-9 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. .Ê.ÊAnd the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground . . . And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food."
Did Michal have children?
II Samuel 6:23 "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."
vs.

II Samuel 21:8 "But the king took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul."
How many stalls did Solomon have?
I Kings 4:26 "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."
vs.

II Chronicles 9:25 "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."
Did Paul's men hear a voice?
Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."
vs.

Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."
(For more detail on this contradiction, with a linguistic analysis of the Greek words, see "Did Paul's Men Hear A Voice?" by Dan Barker, published in the The Skeptical Review, 1994 #1)

Is God omnipotent?
Jeremiah 32:27 "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."
vs.

Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
Does God live in light?
I Timothy 6:15-16 " . . . the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach . . ."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
John 12:35 "Then Jesus saith unto them, . . . he that walketh in darkness knoweth not wither he goeth."
Job 18:18 "He [the wicked] shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world."
Daniel 2:22 "He [God] knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him." See also Psalm 143:3, II Corinthians 6:14, and Hebrews 12:18-22.
vs.

I Kings 8:12 "Then spake Solomon, The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness." (Repeated in II Chronicles 6:1)
II Samuel 22:12 "And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies."
Psalm 18:11 "He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies."
Psalm 97:1-2 "The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice . . . clouds and darkness are round about him."
Does God accept human sacrifice?
Deuteronomy 12:31 "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods."
vs.

Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
Exodus 22:29 "For thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors; the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me."
Judges 11:30-39 "And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hand, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon . . . and the Lord delivered them into his hands. . . . And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: . . . And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed."
II Samuel 21:8-14 "But the king [David] took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal . . . and he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest . . . And after that God was intreated for the land."
Hebrews 10:10-12 " . . . we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ . . . But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God."
I Corinthians 5:7 " . . . For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."
Who was Joseph's father?
Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."
vs.

Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."

Source: http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra,
Check Scripture Refrences here: http://www.biblegateway.com/

I understand that some of these can be easily explained, but I would like to see a Christan explain how each and every one of these can be wrong.

This again strengthens that the Bible is wrong. To be clear, I am not atheist, I just believe that there is a God who hasn't spoken. So don't call me that.
British Stereotypes
21-05-2006, 03:26
That's a lot to read and I'm rather lazy. So what's it about, contradictions in the bible?
Ashmoria
21-05-2006, 03:26
ohforgodssakes

isnt that just a TINY bit much to expect anyone to respond to each and every point? especially since you just copied and pasted from somewhere else rather than putting in the effort yourself?

cant you narrow it down to your top 5 inconsistancies THEN someone can respond to them?
The Keyi
21-05-2006, 03:33
None of these contradict eachother. To understand how they fit together you must understand the context of each verse. None of what God commanded went against anything he had said originally, no matter what it may seem. What it goes against is your interpretation of what he said and is sometimes caused by your misinterpretation of the scriptures.
Corneliu
21-05-2006, 03:41
None of these contradict eachother. To understand how they fit together you must understand the context of each verse. None of what God commanded went against anything he had said originally, no matter what it may seem. What it goes against is your interpretation of what he said and is sometimes caused by your misinterpretation of the scriptures.

Pretty much accurate.

Also, I agree that the post was very long. It needs to be narrowed.
New alchemy
21-05-2006, 03:48
I checked about half those verses. 10% I foudn to be easily explained, but the other 90% which I checked could not be explained, even in context (I read the entire parable which contained the verse)

So please explained to me the contexes, of at least the main ones.

And I don't think it needs to be narrowed. People should know about all the controdictions.
Ashmoria
21-05-2006, 03:50
and where, after half an hour, is our oh-so-indignant original poster?

is this just huge quote spam?
Corneliu
21-05-2006, 03:50
I checked about half those verses. 10% I foudn to be easily explained, but the other 90% which I checked could not be explained, even in context (I read the entire parable which contained the verse)

So please explained to me the contexes, of at least the main ones.

And I don't think it needs to be narrowed. People should know about all the controdictions.

If God tells you to do something, YOU DO IT!
Brains in Tanks
21-05-2006, 03:50
There are no contradictions in the bible. Let me explain it simply. When I don't want you to kill people and you do, you are evil. And when I want you to kill people and you don't, you are evil. It's not that difficult to understand. Now go back your labours and leave the interpretation of God's word to your betters!
Ashmoria
21-05-2006, 03:53
I checked about half those verses. 10% I foudn to be easily explained, but the other 90% which I checked could not be explained, even in context (I read the entire parable which contained the verse)

So please explained to me the contexes, of at least the main ones.

And I don't think it needs to be narrowed. People should know about all the controdictions.
NO

you do the work

YOU point out what the main ones are and why they cant be explained

then we'll respond.

its your thread. do some posting of your own.
Skaladora
21-05-2006, 03:53
None of these contradict eachother. To understand how they fit together you must understand the context of each verse. None of what God commanded went against anything he had said originally, no matter what it may seem. What it goes against is your interpretation of what he said and is sometimes caused by your misinterpretation of the scriptures.
No, they do contradict each other. The bible was written over many centuries, by many different men. Even if you surmise that it represents the word of god, the fact remains that it was written by mortals. Mortals who are faillible, and who are prone to interpreting whatever word they might receive from God. Therefore, it's perfectly natural for the bible to have inconsistencies.

Still, I'm not worried about it much. Those inconsistencies are essentially tidbits from the old testament, and are pretty much interesting only as far as the historical facts they represent. The Gospels are the real core of God's word, and are pretty much free of inconsistencies. We can judge of their validity by the fact that they depict the actions of the son of God, as seen by many witnesses: and the witnesses' accounts recoup each other.
British Stereotypes
21-05-2006, 03:56
It took me forever to scroll down this page. I was tempted to quote the original post to make it even worse. :D Is this a serious thread? If so, I'll just go away. I think religion is funny!
GoodThoughts
21-05-2006, 04:00
Ok, you started this. Read the following.

The first principle of the Teaching of Bahá'u'lláh is:

The Search after Truth

If a man would succeed in his search after truth, he must, in the first place, shut his eyes to all the traditional superstitions of the past.

The Jews have traditional superstitions, the Buddhists and the Zoroastrians are not free from them, neither are the Christians! All religions have gradually become bound by tradition and dogma.

All consider themselves, respectively, the only guardians of the truth, and that every other religion is composed of errors. They themselves are right, all others are wrong! The Jews believe that they are the only possessors of the truth and condemn all other religions. The Christians affirm that their religion is the only true one, that all others are false. Likewise the Buddhists and Muhammadans; all limit themselves. If all condemn one another, where shall we search for truth? All contradicting one another, all cannot be true. If each believe his particular religion to be the only true one, he blinds his eyes to the truth in the others. If, for instance, a Jew is bound by the external practice of the religion of Israel, he does not permit himself to perceive that truth can exist in any other religion; it must be all contained in his own!

We should, therefore, detach ourselves from the external forms and practices of religion. We must realize that these forms and practices, however beautiful, are but garments clothing the warm heart and the living limbs of Divine truth. We must abandon the prejudices of tradition if we would succeed in finding the truth at the core of all religions. If a Zoroastrian believes that the Sun is God, how can he be united to other religions? While idolaters believe in their various idols, how can they understand the oneness of God?

It is, therefore, clear that in order to make any progress in the search after truth we must relinquish superstition. If all seekers would follow this principle they would obtain a clear vision of the truth.

If five people meet together to seek for truth, they must begin by cutting themselves free from all their own special conditions and renouncing all preconceived ideas. In order to find truth we must give up our prejudices, our own small trivial notions; an open receptive mind is essential. If our chalice is full of self, there is no room in it for the water of life. The fact that we imagine ourselves to be right and everybody else wrong is the greatest of all obstacles in the path towards unity, and unity is necessary if we would reach truth, for truth is one.

Therefore it is imperative that we should renounce our own particular prejudices and superstitions if we earnestly desire to seek the truth. Unless we make a distinction in our minds between dogma, superstition and prejudice on the one hand, and truth on the other, we cannot succeed. When we are in earnest in our search for anything we look for it everywhere. This principle we must carry out in our search for truth.

Science must be accepted. No one truth can contradict another truth. Light is good in whatsoever lamp it is burning! A rose is beautiful in whatsoever garden it may bloom! A star has the same radiance if it shines from the East or from the West. Be free from prejudice, so will you love the Sun of Truth from whatsoever point in the horizon it may arise! You will realize that if the Divine light of truth shone in Jesus Christ it also shone in Moses and in Buddha. The earnest seeker will arrive at this truth. This is what is meant by the 'Search after Truth'.

It means, also, that we must be willing to clear away all that we have previously learned, all that would clog our steps on the way to truth; we must not shrink if necessary from beginning our education all over again. We must not allow our love for any one religion or any one personality to so blind our eyes that we become fettered by superstition! When we are freed from all these bonds, seeking with liberated minds, then shall we be able to arrive at our goal.

'Seek the truth, the truth shall make you free.' So shall we see the truth in all religions, for truth is in all and truth is one!

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 134)
Corneliu
21-05-2006, 04:01
We're not talking about Abdu'l Baha Good thoughts. We are talking about the Bible here.

We are still waiting on a topic.
The Parkus Empire
21-05-2006, 04:04
Should we kill?
Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."
vs.

Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Should we tell lies?
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
vs.

I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

Does God change his mind?
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
vs.

Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction.
The abriged version.:D Not that I agree with this, I don't agree with this one bit, I just thought some people might like a...hmm, how you put it? "Shorter" read.
GoodThoughts
21-05-2006, 04:16
We're not talking about Abdu'l Baha Good thoughts. We are talking about the Bible here.

We are still waiting on a topic.

No, I think the topic was God and mixed messages. Not just the Bible. The OP used the Bible as an example. But surely you don't believe that God only spoke in the Bible?
Corneliu
21-05-2006, 04:23
No, I think the topic was God and mixed messages. Not just the Bible. The OP used the Bible as an example. But surely you don't believe that God only spoke in the Bible?

Now this is a much more interesting question than the original topic.
British Stereotypes
21-05-2006, 04:24
No, I think the topic was God and mixed messages. Not just the Bible. The OP used the Bible as an example. But surely you don't believe that God only spoke in the Bible?
Yeah, he talks to people in their minds too. Or is that just some crazy people?
GoodThoughts
21-05-2006, 04:26
Now this is a much more interesting question than the original topic.

Isn't it though!
Corneliu
21-05-2006, 04:28
Isn't it though!

Very much so. Think we could have a civil discussion without the mud slinging in a thread about religion?
Skaladora
21-05-2006, 04:30
... But surely you don't believe that God only spoke in the Bible?
Did he even speak through all the bible? Personally, I very much doubt the part about selling your daughter as a slave or stoning eveyone to death was from him.

So far the only credible evidence we have of his words are through his son, who he sent on earth to tell us what's what.

The bible is an assembly of books written by men. Moreover, what books were put in the bible were also decided by men. I think some critical thinking must be used judiciously when considering the bible as "God's word".
GoodThoughts
21-05-2006, 04:38
Very much so. Think we could have a civil discussion without the mud slinging in a thread about religion?

Sure why not. Let me start. Yuo must understand that it is 10:30 pm here and I have to get up at 5 AM so I can post only a couple of times tonight.

All of the revealed religions have come from the One God of all humans. Each religion has a Messenger of God: to name a few Jesus, Moses, Muhammed, Buddha and today Baha'u'llah.
Corneliu
21-05-2006, 04:41
Sure why not. Let me start. Yuo must understand that it is 10:30 pm here and I have to get up at 5 AM so I can post only a couple of times tonight.

I have you beat! Its 11:30PM here. :D

All of the revealed religions have come from the One God of all humans. Each religion has a Messenger of God: to name a few Jesus, Moses, Muhammed, Buddha and today Baha'u'llah.

I'll agree to Jesus, Moses and Muhammed but Buddha and Baha'u'llah? Sorry but no. That I do not agree too. Why? Buddha started the budist faith which has nothing to do with Jesus and/or God and I know nothing about Baha and what I do see....does have christian principles but that is about it.
Ashmoria
21-05-2006, 04:42
the bible contains lots of mythology, some history, some slander of other cultures (that whole sodom and gomorrah story) and some religion.

the religious parts seem to me to be our best attempt at undertanding what we cant possibly understand--the mind of god.
GoodThoughts
21-05-2006, 04:44
Did he even speak through all the bible? Personally, I very much doubt the part about selling your daughter as a slave or stoning eveyone to death was from him.

So far the only credible evidence we have of his words are through his son, who he sent on earth to tell us what's what.

The bible is an assembly of books written by men. Moreover, what books were put in the bible were also decided by men. I think some critical thinking must be used judiciously when considering the bible as "God's word".

That is a good question with a difficult answer. It is clear that some of what passes as God's word in the Bible, both old and new Testemants, was put there by human means. So we are left trying to understand just what some of the Bible really does mean. This has led to more discussions than grains of sand in the desert.
The Koran probably has fewer human insertions; and the Baha'i Texts are well documented to be only the words of Baha'u'llah.
GoodThoughts
21-05-2006, 04:46
I have you beat! Its 11:30PM here. :D



I'll agree to Jesus, Moses and Muhammed but Buddha and Baha'u'llah? Sorry but no. That I do not agree too. Why? Buddha started the budist faith which has nothing to do with Jesus and/or God and I know nothing about Baha and what I do see....does have christian principles but that is about it.

If you compare the words of Jesus to the words of Buddha it is difficult to tell them apart. The two spiritual figures had the same purpose--the spiritual enlightment of humankind.
Skaladora
21-05-2006, 04:49
That is a good question with a difficult answer. It is clear that some of what passes as God's word in the Bible, both old and new Testemants, was put there by human means. So we are left trying to understand just what some of the Bible really does mean. This has led to more discussions than grains of sand in the desert.
The Koran probably has fewer human insertions; and the Baha'i Texts are well documented to be only the words of Baha'u'llah.
Yes. And, sadly, this has generated more than just discussions: this topic led to wars, inquisitions, witch-hunts, etc. All of this because some try to take everything at face value, and are led to believe that the bible is a monolithic, complete, accurate and legit transcription of God's word.

Those of us who make good use of the free will and critical mind he gave us know better, of course. That means we have to resort to the "pick and choose" attitude... but at least WE're honest about it, and reason why it has to be so. Some can't argue as much.
Corneliu
21-05-2006, 04:50
If you compare the words of Jesus to the words of Buddha it is difficult to tell them apart. The two spiritual figures had the same purpose--the spiritual enlightment of humankind.

How are we supposed to have an argument if I have to agree to something? :( :D

Ok I'm going to have to go to bed though. I'll have to pick this up on Monday more than likely.
GoodThoughts
21-05-2006, 04:52
I have to go to bed too. Some night time reading for anyone who wants to read it.

In the Old Testament we read that God said, 'Let us make man in Our own image'. In the Gospel, Christ said, 'I am in the Father, and the Father in Me'.[1] In the Qur'án, God says, 'Man is my Mystery and I am his'. Bahá'u'lláh writes that God says, 'Thy heart is My home; purify it for My descent. Thy spirit is My place of revelation; cleanse it for My manifestation'.
[1 St. John xiv, II ]

All these sacred words show us that man is made in God's image: yet the Essence of God is incomprehensible to the human mind, for the finite understanding cannot be applied to this infinite Mystery. God contains all: He cannot be contained. That which *24* contains is superior to that which is contained. The whole is greater than its parts.

Things which are understood by men cannot be outside their capacity for understanding, so that it is impossible for the heart of man to comprehend the nature of the Majesty of God. Our imagination can only picture that which it is able to create.

The power of the understanding differs in degree in the various kingdoms of creation. The mineral, vegetable, and animal realms are each incapable of understanding any creation beyond their own. The mineral cannot imagine the growing power of the plant. The tree cannot understand the power of movement in the animal, neither can it comprehend what it would mean to possess sight, hearing or the sense of smell. These all belong to the physical creation.

Man also shares in this creation; but it is not possible for either of the lower kingdoms to understand that which takes place in the mind of man. The animal cannot realize the intelligence of a human being, he only knows that which is perceived by his animal senses, he cannot imagine anything in the abstract. An animal could not learn that the world is round, that the earth revolves round the sun, or the construction of the electric telegraph. These things are only possible to man. Man is the highest work of creation, the nearest to God of all creatures.

All superior kingdoms are incomprehensible to the inferior; how therefore could it be possible that the creature, man, should understand the almighty Creator of all? *25*

That which we imagine, is not the Reality of God; He, the Unknowable, the Unthinkable, is far beyond the highest conception of man.

All creatures that exist are dependent upon the Divine Bounty. Divine Mercy gives life itself. As the light of the sun shines on the whole world, so the Mercy of the infinite God is shed on all creatures. As the sun ripens the fruits of the earth, and gives life and warmth to all living beings, so shines the Sun of Truth on all souls, filling them with the fire of Divine love and understanding.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 22)
Ashmoria
21-05-2006, 04:52
If you compare the words of Jesus to the words of Buddha it is difficult to tell them apart. The two spiritual figures had the same purpose--the spiritual enlightment of humankind.
they seem incredibly different to me. it seems to me that you have to reach in order to have the 2 be the same. the underlying religious systems are totally different.
IL Ruffino
21-05-2006, 04:53
Mother fuck a duck thats too much to read. Shit man.
British Stereotypes
21-05-2006, 04:54
Mother fuck a duck thats too much to read. Shit man.
Yeah, who has bothered to actually read all that?
Non Aligned States
21-05-2006, 04:54
I think some critical thinking must be used judiciously when considering the bible as "God's word".

Rather. Anyone remember how the church initially went about with the story of Mary Magdalene as a prostitute? Looks like it wasn't the case at all and the whole whore bit was tossed around by certain church members with an agenda.
Knuk Knuk and Knuk
21-05-2006, 04:54
That is a good question with a difficult answer. It is clear that some of what passes as God's word in the Bible, both old and new Testemants, was put there by human means. So we are left trying to understand just what some of the Bible really does mean. This has led to more discussions than grains of sand in the desert.
The Koran probably has fewer human insertions; and the Baha'i Texts are well documented to be only the words of Baha'u'llah.

The Koran has no basis without the Old Testament. I believe it is also written as direct quotes from God, while the Bible tends to be a narrative most of the time. Granted there may be some insertions in the Bible. However, the plot, to me at least, is consistant throughout the whole Bible. Like a "progressive revelation" to use a little lingo.
GoodThoughts
21-05-2006, 04:54
How are we supposed to have an argument if I have to agree to something? :( :D

Ok I'm going to have to go to bed though. I'll have to pick this up on Monday more than likely.

Well first you would have to compare the words of Buddha with the words of Jesus and then disagree with my statement.;)
Skaladora
21-05-2006, 04:55
Mother fuck a duck thats too much to read. Shit man.
Did you just have a spontaneous outburst of offensive words, or are you always this foul-mouthed over trivial reasons?
Skaladora
21-05-2006, 04:59
Rather. Anyone remember how the church initially went about with the story of Mary Magdalene as a prostitute? Looks like it wasn't the case at all and the whole whore bit was tossed around by certain church members with an agenda.
Churches are much more political entites than spiritual ones. Faith, enlightenment, thruth, whatever you call it isn't gonna be just handed to you on a silver platter by some moron wearing a dress and/or a funny hat. We're gonna have to work it for ourselves; I'm a very strong supporter of individual spirituality.
GoodThoughts
21-05-2006, 04:59
The Koran has no basis without the Old Testament. I believe it is also written as direct quotes from God, while the Bible tends to be a narrative most of the time. Granted there may be some insertions in the Bible. However, the plot, to me at least, is consistant throughout the whole Bible. Like a "progressive revelation" to use a little lingo.

My last response for the night.

The Koran stands on its own as the sacred text. There are many references to old Testament figures, but that is because Muhammed was the continuing voice of God on earth. His Message was the same message as that of Christ and Moses and today Baha'u'llah continues that message. You must have read or heard of Baha'i before to use the term progressive revelation.
IL Ruffino
21-05-2006, 05:00
Did you just have a spontaneous outburst of offensive words, or are you always this foul-mouthed over trivial reasons?
Spontaneous, and I hardly think "fuck" is offencive.
Szanth
21-05-2006, 05:00
The bible is the word of men. Not women, not "man", definitely not God.

The church is an organization of men. Not women, not "man", and definitely not God.

"Man", being a representative goodness in all men on earth.



That being said, I think god talks to us sometimes, in little ways, but he's mostly a listener.
Brains in Tanks
21-05-2006, 05:04
they seem incredibly different to me. it seems to me that you have to reach in order to have the 2 be the same. the underlying religious systems are totally different.

Well it was a close thing. In the early days of the Christian cult there was a big debate over if souls in hell could work towards redemption. But it was decided that damnation was eternal. If the the opposing view had won Christianty would be a lot closer to Buddhism.
Skaladora
21-05-2006, 05:05
Spontaneous, and I hardly think "fuck" is offencive.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't have my panties in a bunch. I just thought "fuck" and "shit" were unneccesary and superflous in your comment.

I'm all for cursing and being foul-mouthed when it counts: but by tossing it in for little or no reason, you lessen the impact it has when you really have a reason to be vulgar.
British Stereotypes
21-05-2006, 05:07
I changed my mind. Religion isn't funny at all. It's just boring.
IL Ruffino
21-05-2006, 05:07
Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't have my panties in a bunch. I just thought "fuck" and "shit" were unneccesary and superflous in your comment.

I'm all for cursing and being foul-mouthed when it counts: but by tossing it in for little or no reason, you lessen the impact it has when you really have a reason to be vulgar.
That.. totally made sense.

Damnit, I feel stupid for thinking you're an ass.
Armegh
21-05-2006, 05:08
He, hat Terrel Fenn jetzt eine Publikation und es ist geöffnet. Stoppen Sie vorbei für einen Pint. Alle sind willkommen.
IL Ruffino
21-05-2006, 05:08
I changed my mind. Religion isn't funny at all. It's just boring.
Indeed.
Skaladora
21-05-2006, 05:12
That.. totally made sense.

Damnit, I feel stupid for thinking you're an ass.
Glad to have corrected your assumption on my assedness. :D
British Stereotypes
21-05-2006, 05:13
Indeed.
Yeah, except that dude with the hat. He's still funny.
Skaladora
21-05-2006, 05:14
Yeah, except that dude with the hat. He's still funny.
He's not funny. His hat is funny. Remove the hat and all you've got is a weird old guy wearing a dress. Creepy. O_O
IL Ruffino
21-05-2006, 05:17
He's not funny. His hat is funny. Remove the hat and all you've got is a weird old guy wearing a dress. Creepy. O_O
Ok, so a nazi walks into a bar.. The bar tendor asks "hey you, whats with the dress?". The nazi replies "dress?"... LOL!
British Stereotypes
21-05-2006, 05:18
He's not funny. His hat is funny. Remove the hat and all you've got is a weird old guy wearing a dress. Creepy. O_O

True! Then that's confirmed it. Religion is hats down the most boring subject there is.
Ashmoria
21-05-2006, 05:21
Well it was a close thing. In the early days of the Christian cult there was a big debate over if souls in hell could work towards redemption. But it was decided that damnation was eternal. If the the opposing view had won Christianty would be a lot closer to Buddhism.
if you say so.

seems to me that purgatory is the imperfect soul working towards redemption.

but, buddhists get limitless lives to work toward oblivion. christians get one shot at making it to heaven. even without purgatory is still a one shot deal.

christianity has a personal god; buddhism has no official gods at all.

buddhism has karma. very different from the christian concept of sin.
Skaladora
21-05-2006, 05:21
Ok, so a nazi walks into a bar.. The bar tendor asks "hey you, whats with the dress?". The nazi replies "dress?"... LOL!
Um... I'm afraid I don't get it. -_-' Maybe that's because my English isn't my mother language(then again, I'm fluent enough to get the humor most of the times)... or is it that joke some kind of classic I've never heard before?
Brains in Tanks
21-05-2006, 05:26
if you say so.

seems to me that purgatory is the imperfect soul working towards redemption.

but, buddhists get limitless lives to work toward oblivion. christians get one shot at making it to heaven. even without purgatory is still a one shot deal.

christianity has a personal god; buddhism has no official gods at all.

buddhism has karma. very different from the christian concept of sin.

I think it might be the Australian/New Zealander effect at work here.

Australians and New Zealanders insist that they are completely different, that they sound different, that they have different cultures and often that they hate each other. However to someone who isn't from Australian or New Zealand, for example someone from Japan, they appear almost exactly the same.
Ashmoria
21-05-2006, 05:31
I think it might be the Australian/New Zealander effect at work here.

Australians and New Zealanders insist that they are completely different, that they sound different, that they have different cultures and often that they hate each other. However to someone who isn't from Australian or New Zealand, for example someone from Japan, they appear almost exactly the same.
lol

good analogy

you mat be right
Stereoviolence
21-05-2006, 05:35
this is a boring religious debate. during the last thousand years who were the evil barstards killing everyone. the inquisition the crusades the burning of witches various religious wars it seems to me whoever is actually behind the carrying out of these things are the real evil ones. to look at evil as a physical entity just look at what the church has done the millions of deaths the militaristic 'holy' roman empire