NationStates Jolt Archive

Somewhat inspiried by this image http://www.deviantart.com/view/33494025/

Ive seen goths and punks wearing the same type of clothing and listening to the same kind of music.

They also tend to call themselves "rejects" or "rebels against the system" which is bullshit since there are so many of them and they are uncontested, you see going down this punk/goth path ensures a lack of resistance from others because no one cares since there are so many of them that they just become the norm which is the opposite of what they claim to be.

In essence punks and goths like to seem rebellious and different when they are anything but. They lack the courage to actually be something rebellious and different.

deviantART...:)

Yes, I know, it's rubbish isn't it?

My sister is always going on about how cool she is because she listens to "political music" (Green Day and System of a Down, but not Public Enemy et al) and wears black, and dies her hair black, and how everyone hates her because of it, but that's OK, because they're just a part of the system etc.

ARGH!

That pisses me off so much!

Her and her mates "fight oppression, man" and such by 'hilariously' shouting out 'random' things like "banana" or whatever in the street, and giggle when they get dirty looks.

Eugh... they think they're so anti-cool-but-cool-because-of-it.

Grrrrrr.

*edits* Oh the ironing!

"Rule one : Never Conform.
Rule four : Conform to the goth ways."

That said, it's satire (I hope).

For one it's non-conformity. For another teenagers(and others) who claim to non-conform generally don't. They just conform to something different. This has always been true. I would think that the only real non-conformism would be to form your own new group(quite a task I would imagine) and don't let anyone know about it, in case they want to join

Goth Kid: You can't be different unless you dress and act just like us

I could say so many things and get so pissed off, but I really don't want to get all angry this morning so I'll just agree. I really don't want to get started. They make me puke my pants.

The artist of that is really weird. He has some sort of Nazi animal fetish, by the looks of it...

I enjoy punk rock but I usually antagonised my punk friends by going to shows in a business suit and glasses. Good fun.

Somewhat inspiried by this image http://www.deviantart.com/view/33494025/

Ive seen goths and punks wearing the same type of clothing and listening to the same kind of music.

They also tend to call themselves "rejects" or "rebels against the system" which is bullshit since there are so many of them and they are uncontested, you see going down this punk/goth path ensures a lack of resistance from others because no one cares since there are so many of them that they just become the norm which is the opposite of what they claim to be.

In essence punks and goths like to seem rebellious and different when they are anything but. They lack the courage to actually be something rebellious and different.
Have you ever read The Rebel Sell (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1841126551/morleysoft) (amazon.co.uk link - it doesn't seem to be available at amazon.com)? It makes pretty much the same point, but goes further in arguing that the counterculture actual *helps* the continuation of the problems of mainstream culture.

I enjoy punk rock but I usually antagonised my punk friends by going to shows in a business suit and glasses. Good fun.

How... 'random'...

Going to a Westlife gig in a bunny costume would be slightly more 'radical', but you might get the shit beaten out of you by passers-by.

Have you ever read The Rebel Sell (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1841126551/safalrasphilo-20) (amazon.co.uk link - it doesn't seem to be available at amazon.com)? It makes pretty much the same point, but goes further in arguing that the counterculture actual *helps* the continuation of the problems of mainstream culture.
There was a special on the U.s. news documentary programme Frontline that talked about advertising methods and how Madison Avenue loves to co-op supposedly 'rebellious' subcultures.

It's amazing how thorough punk, metal, and their kin have been taken over by the marketing industry. Here's the special. Definitely worth watching if your connection's up to the task. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/view/)

There was a special on the U.s. news documentary programme Frontline that talked about advertising methods and how Madison Avenue loves to co-op supposedly 'rebellious' subcultures.

It's amazing how thorough punk, metal, and their kin have been taken over by the marketing industry. Here's the special. Definitely worth watching if your connection's up to the task. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/view/)

Disgusting really.....I hope the MTV/pop industry burns to the ground.

How... 'random'...

Going to a Westlife gig in a bunny costume would be slightly more 'radical', but you might get the shit beaten out of you by passers-by.
Maybe passers by, but not at the gig. What are >14 year old girls gonna do? Scream you to death?





Wait........................

Disgusting really.....I hope the MTV/pop industry burns to the ground.
Yeah. I did a paper on youth marketing for a developmental psychology class last quarter and the further I dug, the more nauseated by it I became. It is absolutely astounding, the degree to which the minds of western youth are controlled by this stuff.

Maybe passers by, but not at the gig. What are >14 year old girls gonna do? Scream you to death?

Wait........................

Indeed. Your ears'd be bleeding by the time you got out onto the street, and then if you met anyone even remotely pissed/homophobic they rest of you'd be bleeding as you crawled to Dublin Hospital A & E.

Yeah. I did a paper on youth marketing for a developmental psychology class last quarter and the further I dug, the more nauseated by it I became. It is absolutely astounding, the degree to which the minds of western youth are controlled by this stuff.

But American youth culture's so delicious!

What else can I eat?

Somewhat inspiried by this image http://www.deviantart.com/view/33494025/

Ive seen goths and punks wearing the same type of clothing and listening to the same kind of music.

They also tend to call themselves "rejects" or "rebels against the system" which is bullshit since there are so many of them and they are uncontested, you see going down this punk/goth path ensures a lack of resistance from others because no one cares since there are so many of them that they just become the norm which is the opposite of what they claim to be.

In essence punks and goths like to seem rebellious and different when they are anything but. They lack the courage to actually be something rebellious and different.

It's always something of an amusement to me...

The people who attack goths for their 'conformity', all tend to go to the same clubs and wear the same fashions.

Apparently, it is only a crime to be like others, if those others are different to the 'norm'.

As to 'so many of them' and 'they are uncontested'... both claims are true to a degree, and false to a degree. There are thousands of goths... but there are millions of NOT-goths... it's a matter of proportion. And, as someone who had goth friends that were not the 'big, tough' kids... I know that they were targets for their perceived 'difference'.

Maybe it's not a big deal to you - since you seem to think them 'uncontested', but to my 5'6" goth friend who got the crap beat out of him by 6 'lads' (yes - six... apparently, one goth NEEDS six 'lads' to 'show him the error of his ways'), it IS a big deal. Kind of responds to your 'lacking courage' comment, too... I wonder how many 'normals' would be convicted enough to leave the house in velvet and makeup...

You might not realise it - but this kind of thread is reinforcing JUST THAT kind of thinking.

But American youth culture's so delicious!

What else can I eat?
Well, I don't know. You have your own culture on that side of the pond, don't you? Surely that one is at least as delicious. I'd bet it doesn't have all of those artificial chemical additives.

I've often wondered if that's the point. Goths and punks, who might pose a threat to the system, are effectively neutralized by the whole thing, with its nihilism and crappy music (I hate punk myself, and think anarchists would be better off without it).

Well, I don't know. You have your own culture on that side of the pond, don't you? Surely that one is at least as delicious. I'd bet it doesn't have all of those artificial chemical additives.

We're not force-fed our own culture, though. You actually have to look for European cinema and TV, unlike American stuff.

It's pretty simple, if you ask me. Being different or rebellious for its own sake instantly compromises the point.

We're not force-fed our own culture, though. You actually have to look for European cinema and TV, unlike American stuff.
Don't European broadcasters have rules on the percentage of radio and televison content that has to be home-grown?

I enjoy punk rock but I usually antagonised my punk friends by going to shows in a business suit and glasses. Good fun.

Following tradition, no? Martin Atkins and David Byrne established THAT tradition decades ago...

Don't European broadcasters have rules on the percentage of radio and televison content that has to be home-grown?

France does, the rest of us have just learned to accept it.

Following tradition, no? Martin Atkins and David Byrne established THAT tradition decades ago...
I am a big fan of David Byrne. That was admittedly an inspiration. I certainly wasn't making any claims to individualism of my own, but when you're dealing with a bunch of California suburbanite kids, you tend to make ripples by not doing anything that's not explicitely of one subculture or another.

I've often wondered if that's the point. Goths and punks, who might pose a threat to the system, are effectively neutralized by the whole thing, with its nihilism and crappy music (I hate punk myself, and think anarchists would be better off without it).

Goths and punks versus wannabes... if you think Good Charlotte are punk, and your idea of punk or goth can be bought 'off-the-hook' in Hot Topic, then you are goth or punk as 'fashion'.

For others - the goth and punk 'scenes' are assurance they are not alone.

Indeed. Your ears'd be bleeding by the time you got out onto the street, and then if you met anyone even remotely pissed/homophobic they rest of you'd be bleeding as you crawled to Dublin Hospital A & E.
That's gonna be quite a crawl, considering you're still in the bunny suit.

What you should do is get a bunny suit like Frank's in Donnie Darko. That'd scare the be-jaysus out of everybody.

I am a big fan of David Byrne. That was admittedly an inspiration. I certainly wasn't making any claims to individualism of my own, but when you're dealing with a bunch of California suburbanite kids, you tend to make ripples by not doing anything that's not explicitely of one subculture or another.

I'm a big fan of David Byrne, and of Martin Atkins (PIL, Ministry (circa 90-92), Pigface).

If you are going to follow footsteps, you might as well make them footsteps of the greats, no?

I hate punk myself, and think anarchists would be better off without it.

I'm an anarcho-communist my favourite band is Massive Attack, followed by Portishead. Chillout ftw!

And if it wasn't for "I... wanna be... anarchy..." from the Sex Pistols then possibly the whole 'inane punk-based anarchy' stuff wouldn't have been started.

Oh the joys of hindsight.

I'm a big fan of David Byrne, and of Martin Atkins (PIL, Ministry (circa 90-92), Pigface).

If you are going to follow footsteps, you might as well make them footsteps of the greats, no?
Indeed. Not so much an emulation thing. Just a little personal homage. ;)

Indeed. Not so much an emulation thing. Just a little personal homage. ;)

With the advantage of the 'homage' being a subtle visual clue for those 'in the know'... :)

goths/emos/punks i agree are the true conformists because they've labeled themselves into a catagory. how can u belong to pointless social catagories and not conform? when they try to become they group, they're o longer being themselves. i have to say i do like some punk/emo music, and the occasional over-exadurated poem, but they're just doing it to fit into the mold.

okay, thanks for listening to my random input to this...

goths/emos/punks i agree are the true conformists because they've labeled themselves into a catagory. how can u belong to pointless social catagories and not conform? when they try to become they group, they're o longer being themselves. i have to say i do like some punk/emo music, and the occasional over-exadurated poem, but they're just doing it to fit into the mold.

okay, thanks for listening to my random input to this...
No, thank you.

No, thank you.
Indeed. What is this forum without random input? Nothing, that's what!

I'm an anarcho-communist my favourite band is Massive Attack, followed by Portishead. Chillout ftw!

I for one think the point of music is to be art, not agitprop. Punk bands are a joke in terms of musical ability, from what I hear. Just because they say things I agree with doesn't mean they are any good. I fully support anarchy, but I really don't like the culture of anarchism. It's not much better than popular culture. I've been revising my views a great deal in response to this.

What culture of anarchism? I highly doubt Noam Chomsky goes home after a hard day at MIT and throws on some Anti-Flag. Beyond that, most of the *intelligent* (or simply grown-up) anarchists I know don't connect at all to punk rock.

I for one think the point of music is to be art, not agitprop. Punk bands are a joke in terms of musical ability, from what I hear. Just because they say things I agree with doesn't mean they are any good. I fully support anarchy, but I really don't like the culture of anarchism. It's not much better than popular culture. I've been revising my views a great deal in response to this.

Indeed. The whole "culture of anarchy" thing is a bit grating. Yes, you can do circles around As and write "eat the rich", but it doesn't make you an activist, kiddies!

What culture of anarchism? I highly doubt Noam Chomsky goes home after a hard day at MIT and throws on some Anti-Flag. Beyond that, most of the *intelligent* (or simply grown-up) anarchists I know don't connect at all to punk rock.
And most of the punkers I know don't connect to anarchy at all.

And most of the punkers I know don't connect to anarchy at all.
Exactament.

What culture of anarchism? I highly doubt Noam Chomsky goes home after a hard day at MIT and throws on some Anti-Flag. Beyond that, most of the *intelligent* (or simply grown-up) anarchists I know don't connect at all to punk rock.Really? Most of the "grown-up" anarchists I know (that is, they're completely cognizant and understand what they're saying) are punks. Of course, they don't really keep in the same line as Noam Chomsky. Those guys are more like that romantic post-left-anarchy style a la CrimethInc. Still, I don't think it's a totally fair thing to talk about Chomsky listening to Anti-Flag. Anti-Flag aren't really anarchists! I can easily imagine Chomsky putting on This Bike Is A Pipe Bomb, who sing old Wobbly songs. Noam is a member of the IWW, after all.

Really? Most of the "grown-up" anarchists I know (that is, they're completely cognizant and understand what they're saying) are punks. Of course, they don't really keep in the same line as Noam Chomsky. Those guys are more like that romantic post-left-anarchy style a la CrimethInc. Still, I don't think it's a totally fair thing to talk about Chomsky listening to Anti-Flag. Anti-Flag aren't really anarchists! I can easily imagine Chomsky putting on This Bike Is A Pipe Bomb, who sing old Wobbly songs. Noam is a member of the IWW, after all.
Well, that was a part of my point: that many people who claim to be something and listen to a particular group of bands may not necessarily have a clear idea of the ideals which they espouse as it relates to their pop culture.

As far as the types of anarchists we know... I guess we just hang out in different circles. ;)

Well, that was a part of my point: that many people who claim to be something and listen to a particular group of bands may not necessarily have a clear idea of the ideals which they espouse as it relates to their pop culture.Well, yeah. I get you're saying. A lot of people are guilty of that charge, especially in mainstream culture.

As far as the types of anarchists we know... I guess we just hang out in different circles. ;)Most likely.

inconformity is just another form of conformity... :rolleyes:
Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't NEED to follow ME, You don't NEED to follow ANYBODY! You've got to think for your selves! You're ALL individuals!
The Crowd:[in unison] Yes! We're all individuals!
Brian: You're all different!
The Crowd:[in unison] Yes, we ARE all different!

I highly doubt Noam Chomsky goes home after a hard day at MIT and throws on some Anti-Flag.

though when i met him, he did mention that he found bad religion to be interesting.

:rolleyes:
Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't NEED to follow ME, You don't NEED to follow ANYBODY! You've got to think for your selves! You're ALL individuals!
The Crowd:[in unison] Yes! We're all individuals!
Brian: You're all different!
The Crowd:[in unison] Yes, we ARE all different!


And that right there is the exact attitude of most punks and goths.

though when i met him, he did mention that he found bad religion to be interesting.
Nice to know we share something in common!:D

I agree. I often feel like I'm not allowed to hang out in the drama room or have strong political opinions simply because I wear colours and do well in school. Smoking pot and skipping school is fighting the system. It's being lazy. The best way to make a political difference is to get educated, and present yourself like a smart, collected, respectful person. That way, you can get the support of those arround you. And music taste has nothing to do with intelligence or personality. Not everyone has to listen to Modest Mouse.

:rolleyes:
Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't NEED to follow ME, You don't NEED to follow ANYBODY! You've got to think for your selves! You're ALL individuals!
The Crowd:[in unison] Yes! We're all individuals!
Brian: You're all different!
The Crowd:[in unison] Yes, we ARE all different!
'How shall we fuck off Oh Lord?'

Inconformity isn't a kind of conformity - there are just a lot of conformists who claim to be nonconformists.

That said, you don't have to dress differently to everyone else to be a nonconformist. If you genuinely like the way someone is dressed and imitate, you're not conforming, you're just agreeing with their taste in clothes. If you only dress the same as them to be the same, then you're conforming.