NationStates Jolt Archive

A Venezuelan diplomat said his country is awaiting talks with Russia on buying new Russian jet fighters, a Russian news agency reported Friday, days after the United States imposed an arms embargo on the oil-rich South American country. Interfax also cited Ambassador Alexis Navarro Rojas as saying that President Hugo Chavez was seeking to visit Russia sometime in the coming months.
"We are awaiting a reply from the Russian side. President Chavez likes visiting Russia ," Rojas was quoted as saying by Interfax. Venezuelan pilots had already tested out Su-27 and Su-30 fighters, Rojas said. "They have simply fallen in love with the aircraft. They have also tried piloting the Su-35. Now we are waiting for talks to begin," he was quoted as saying. :D

...peace in our time?

I guess the word for peace is non existant in todays society, all countrys are engaged in a power struggle over anything and everything....i guess the day of appocalypse is closer than we realy know or should is say what they are allowing us to think.

A Venezuelan diplomat said his country is awaiting talks with Russia on buying new Russian jet fighters, a Russian news agency reported Friday, days after the United States imposed an arms embargo on the oil-rich South American country. Interfax also cited Ambassador Alexis Navarro Rojas as saying that President Hugo Chavez was seeking to visit Russia sometime in the coming months.
"We are awaiting a reply from the Russian side. President Chavez likes visiting Russia ," Rojas was quoted as saying by Interfax. Venezuelan pilots had already tested out Su-27 and Su-30 fighters, Rojas said. "They have simply fallen in love with the aircraft. They have also tried piloting the Su-35. Now we are waiting for talks to begin," he was quoted as saying. :D

sounds kind of like Cuba with out the nukes:p

sounds kind of like Cuba with out the nukes:p


My thoughts exactly but the difference is that this country has oil reserves.

...peace in our time?

Amazing. You're actually comparing buying jets to invading countries unprovoked (y'know, like Bush did).

Also:

Lack of gun control: The theory that a 110-pound woman that may or not have a gun should have to deal with a 220-pound rapist that surely has one he stole from someone else incompetent to have a weapon but able to buy them or is about to steal from her.

Ah yes, I can just see the "CHAVEZ IS AN EVIL COMMIE GEARING UP TO TAKE OVER ALL OF SOUTH AMERICA AND DESTORY TEH USA" calls coming right now.

Ah yes, I can just see the "CHAVEZ IS AN EVIL COMMIE GEARING UP TO TAKE OVER ALL OF SOUTH AMERICA AND DESTORY TEH USA" calls coming right now.

You're late, they already started, like the guy that used "peace in our time" to compare Chavez to Hitler. :rolleyes:

Amazing. You're actually comparing buying jets to invading countries unprovoked (y'know, like Bush did).

Also:

Lack of gun control: The theory that a 110-pound woman that may or not have a gun should have to deal with a 220-pound rapist that surely has one he stole from someone else incompetent to have a weapon but able to buy them or is about to steal from her.
You got that from "...peace in our time?":confused:

You're late, they already started, like the guy that used "peace in our time" to compare Chavez to Hitler. :rolleyes:

Yeah, but i'm most looking forward to the part where turning Venezuela into glass is seriously suggested. My, how dare they pursue their own national policy independent of the USA - the sheer nerve of it all.

You got that from "...peace in our time?":confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_in_our_time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_in_our_time
I see.

Yeah, but i'm most looking forward to the part where turning Venezuela into glass is seriously suggested. My, how dare they pursue their own national policy independent of the USA - the sheer nerve of it all.

Did you forget? They want to show how much they support DEMOCRACY , SELF-DETERMINATION and HUMAN RIGHTS!!!

Y'know, by NOT ALLOWING VENEZUELA TO HAVE ANY BY TRYING TO COUP OUT NON-SYCOPHANT LEADERS!!!

And here is where I stop shouting for the irony of it all to be heard.

*Yawn* Ok, they are buying Russian fighters. All and all, it's another round of sabre rattling.

Lack of gun control: The theory that a 110-pound woman that may or not have a gun should have to deal with a 220-pound rapist that surely has one he stole from someone else incompetent to have a weapon but able to buy them or is about to steal from her.
Hang on here. Your reasoning is flawed. Criminals are going to possess weapons whether they are legal or not. If they do not respect other laws, why the HELL would they respect one on gun control? You know, criminals--especially gang members--LOVE gun control laws. Why? Because it gives them a huge advantage over law-abiding citizens. They can't defend themselves against a firearm because they don't have one because ideological idiots thought that laws against guns would help. They don't. All they do is make it that much easier for the criminal. Personally, I'd almost lean towards a gun REQUIREMENT law. As it is, the only type of control I favor on gun ownership is backround checks and a required course in gun safety and marksmanship. That's it. I myself plan on owning a gun as soon as I move out of my parents house.

As for Chavez: So he's looking at another source. Your point? I'm afraid I don't see how this ends the U.S. attempts to keep ahold of the power in South America.

Lack of gun control: The theory that a 110-pound woman that may or not have a gun should have to deal with a 220-pound rapist that surely has one he stole from someone else incompetent to have a weapon but able to buy them or is about to steal from her.
Actually his is the fluff version.

Gun Control - The idea that a woman raped and then strangled with her own undergarments is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.

Neither of you can escape the point that the victim having a gun tends to INCREASE the likeliness of a crime ending in the victim's death. And that a ban on all guns would make it much easier to prevent smuggling (as there'd be no doubt that the weapon is illegal). Also, MANDATORY gun ownership? Very well, but the first thing I'd do with the gun would be (and I doubt I'm alone in this) getting people and myself to overthrow the government that wants to rape my civil right NOT to have a weapon. The same principle doesn't apply to gun ownership because being a threat to others is NOT a civil right. Considering you're such a fan of having guns, you'd probably be one of the first killed by the people that want to get RID of them. As such, you'd be basically making EVERYONE a criminal. Nice. Real nice.

Now, shall we go back to the conservatives' 8th "let's slander Chavez as a dictator while calling for replacing him with an actual one" contest?

Don't play dumb. Using the "peace in our time" reference was, yes, a poorly-veiled attempt to link Chavez and Hitler. Which is pretty cute considering that Bush invaded Iraq unprovoked, and that Chavez didn't invade ANY country. Even cuter considering that the US has 2,700 nukes and the Right is getting their G-strings in a bunch over Chavez buying jets.

Now, I gotta go DM some RPG, which is likely closer to reality than your views are...

Oh noes!

Venezuali builds an airforce due to US sabre-rattling!

They'll kill us all!

Oh no... wait... possibly they're just preparing to defend themselves because they've got oil and most Americans are seemingly stupid enough to reason that Chavez is as evil as Hitler and hence MUST DIE SOON along with any followers that he may have.

Yeah, but i'm most looking forward to the part where turning Venezuela into glass is seriously suggested. My, how dare they pursue their own national policy independent of the USA - the sheer nerve of it all.


No, looking at it objectively they are of course entitled to buy jets from anyone. But, again objectively, the US is entitled to follow the course of action it deems most suitable to protect its intrests in wake of this decision made by Chavez.

Many people are very hypocritical and will look at the Venezualian side objectively, but will refuse to do so in the case of the US.

Don't play dumb. Using the "peace in our time" reference was, yes, a poorly-veiled attempt to link Chavez and Hitler.

Uh, no. It was a reference to the apparent optimism of the title of this thread: "U.S. power struggle of South America coming to an end..!" Which has about the same level of naivete as Chamberlains optimistic remarks about peace in our time.

Please, you are practically masturbating in fury over what was just a minor joke. Grow a sense of humor. And I'm not going to indulge you by hijacking this thread into a discussion of gun control either.

Neither of you can escape the point that the victim having a gun tends to INCREASE the likeliness of a crime ending in the victim's death. And that a ban on all guns would make it much easier to prevent smuggling (as there'd be no doubt that the weapon is illegal). Also, MANDATORY gun ownership? Very well, but the first thing I'd do with the gun would be (and I doubt I'm alone in this) getting people and myself to overthrow the government that wants to rape my civil right NOT to have a weapon. The same principle doesn't apply to gun ownership because being a threat to others is NOT a civil right. Considering you're such a fan of having guns, you'd probably be one of the first killed by the people that want to get RID of them. As such, you'd be basically making EVERYONE a criminal. Nice. Real nice.

Now, shall we go back to the conservatives' 8th "let's slander Chavez as a dictator while calling for replacing him with an actual one" contest?

Don't play dumb. Using the "peace in our time" reference was, yes, a poorly-veiled attempt to link Chavez and Hitler. Which is pretty cute considering that Bush invaded Iraq unprovoked, and that Chavez didn't invade ANY country. Even cuter considering that the US has 2,700 nukes and the Right is getting their G-strings in a bunch over Chavez buying jets.

Now, I gotta go DM some RPG, which is likely closer to reality than your views are...


You know its very odd that you bring up the gun arguments unprovoked, I think it is more likely that you wish to run over my civil right to own a gun, then it is me to over run your civil rights not to own a gun. :)

And by giving the government one more power over you, you help to slowly, but steadily, build a "utopian", totalitarian, dictatorship. (Or more intentionally you just like steam rolling other peoples civil rights, but I'll go with more likely your ignorant and not looking at the full picture then you are malicious.)

How did this thread go from "Venezuela buys Russian jets" to "gun ownership right" in less than 20 posts?

How did this thread go from "Venezuela buys Russian jets" to "gun ownership right" in less than 20 posts?

Someone took issue with me and therefore, somehow, my signature.

How did this thread go from "Venezuela buys Russian jets" to "gun ownership right" in less than 20 posts?
Um... because Venezuela is in danger of being raped and strangled with her own undergarments?

...

I don't know. I've got nothing.

WW3 is coming fast, I see it that Veni,Iran,N Korea,mybe russia will attack the U.S and its allys. The world is crazy and if the world is like this for many years to come the 21 centruy will be a dark chapter in human history, Mybe leading us to our own fate?

Iran, Veni and that other asian country witch isnt inportant wont stand a chance against the West. :cool:

Many people are very hypocritical and will look at the Venezualian side objectively, but will refuse to do so in the case of the US.

The problem in most cases is that the US actions tend to involve external influencing of nations whereas most other nations don't go about meddling in the politics of other nations that much, or in some cases, with that much heavy artillery.

WW3 is coming fast, I see it that Veni,Iran,N Korea,mybe russia will attack the U.S and its allys. The world is crazy and if the world is like this for many years to come the 21 centruy will be a dark chapter in human history, Mybe leading us to our own fate?

Iran, Veni and that other asian country witch isnt inportant wont stand a chance against the West. :cool:
What the FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? You're looking forward to a future world war like it's a damn good thing.

Hang on here. Your reasoning is flawed. Criminals are going to possess weapons whether they are legal or not. If they do not respect other laws, why the HELL would they respect one on gun control? You know, criminals--especially gang members--LOVE gun control laws. Why? Because it gives them a huge advantage over law-abiding citizens. They can't defend themselves against a firearm because they don't have one because ideological idiots thought that laws against guns would help. They don't. All they do is make it that much easier for the criminal. Personally, I'd almost lean towards a gun REQUIREMENT law. As it is, the only type of control I favor on gun ownership is backround checks and a required course in gun safety and marksmanship. That's it. I myself plan on owning a gun as soon as I move out of my parents house.
My idea of "gun control" is being able to hit center mass every ... single ... time! :D

WW3 is coming fast, I see it that Veni,Iran,N Korea,mybe russia will attack the U.S and its allys. The world is crazy and if the world is like this for many years to come the 21 centruy will be a dark chapter in human history, Mybe leading us to our own fate?

Iran, Veni and that other asian country witch isnt inportant wont stand a chance against the West. :cool:

Thanks for that. Basically you can feck off, the USA is dying and none of that will happen, because people know the consequences of global warfare.

Thanks for that. Basically you can feck off, the USA is dying and none of that will happen, because people know the consequences of global warfare.
If there is any WW3 brewing, it's one between the so-called "christian" fundies, and the so-called "muslim" findies. It won't be a war per se: it'll be guerilla, with terrorism and counter-terrorism.

Global warfare won't happen again. The US army can boast all they want, but the only countries they've been attacking for the last 50 years are countries with a token defense force. You won't see clashes between the USA, Europe, Russia, Japan or China or India: they all know they've got too much to lose and too little to gain by engaging in global warfare.

War is only cool in videogames. In real life, it's hell and should be avoided at all costs.

Oh no... wait... possibly they're just preparing to defend themselves because they've got oil and most Americans are seemingly stupid enough to reason that Chavez is as evil as Hitler and hence MUST DIE SOON along with any followers that he may have.
On the other hand (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10993171&postcount=2), it is acceptable to blatantly label the US government as a facist burger with the works: sharp Gestapo, extra Sicherheitsdienst and a brainwashed citizen slushy on the side.
WW3 is coming fast...
I feel we can count the Cold War as World War III...
If there is any WW3 brewing...it'll be guerilla, with terrorism and counter-terrorism.
...with such reasoning. Now is the time to get the hype up about World War IV with catchy buzzwords like "Global 4". Such actions would allow the countries of Earth to sort out their problems and entertain their citizens at the same time, assuming no-one sabotages the satilites after the official declartions of war.

On the other hand (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10993171&postcount=2), it is acceptable to blatantly label the US government as a facist burger with the works: sharp Gestapo, extra Sicherheitsdienst and a brainwashed citizen slushy on the side.

It WOULDN'T BE, if, y'know, the oh-so-motherfucking-democratical government of the United States hadn't tried to COUP OUT CHAVEZ, an elected leader, REPLACING HIM WITH A MILITARY DICTATORSHIP!!!

Considering that the US tried to make Venezuela into the worst kind of state ever created for electing someone they disagree with, all the while claiming democratic values, they have every right to think that of the government that tried to rape Venezuela like a pedophile rapes a 10-year old!

meh, nothing to get excited about, let them buy planes from who they like.


Also re:gun control, horses for courses people, different rules for different cultures. strict gun control works better in some countries like the UK for example, and vice versa for other countries like the USA. ffs you don't have to have just one worldwide rule without looking at the society it's being implemented. :headbang:

On the other hand (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=10993171&postcount=2), it is acceptable to blatantly label the US government as a facist burger with the works: sharp Gestapo, extra Sicherheitsdienst and a brainwashed citizen slushy on the side.

It's certainly a better comparison than comparing Chavez' Venezuala to the regime of Hitler, and not entirely inaccurate.

Global warfare won't happen again.

Winner gets a gold star for the day!

A Venezuelan diplomat said his country is awaiting talks with Russia on buying new Russian jet fighters, a Russian news agency reported Friday, days after the United States imposed an arms embargo on the oil-rich South American country. Interfax also cited Ambassador Alexis Navarro Rojas as saying that President Hugo Chavez was seeking to visit Russia sometime in the coming months.
"We are awaiting a reply from the Russian side. President Chavez likes visiting Russia ," Rojas was quoted as saying by Interfax. Venezuelan pilots had already tested out Su-27 and Su-30 fighters, Rojas said. "They have simply fallen in love with the aircraft. They have also tried piloting the Su-35. Now we are waiting for talks to begin," he was quoted as saying. :D
Maybe the Venezuelan government should spend less on its military, less on helping relatively wealthy foreign people and more on helping its own people. Everything that Chavez does seems to be more of a calculated political move to annoy the US, rather than benefiting his people.

Lack of gun control: The theory that a 110-pound woman that may or not have a gun should have to deal with a 220-pound rapist that surely has one he stole from someone else incompetent to have a weapon but able to buy them or is about to steal from her.
The majority of rapists are unarmed.

The same principle doesn't apply to gun ownership because being a threat to others is NOT a civil right.
Owning a gun =/= being a threat.

That's why any legalisation of guns should also come with laws prohibiting ownership by those with criminal records, the insane, and should also necessitate mandatory weapons training.

If there is any WW3 brewing, it's one between the so-called "christian" fundies, and the so-called "muslim" findies. It won't be a war per se: it'll be guerilla, with terrorism and counter-terrorism.
There are not enough of either to make for a real war.

It WOULDN'T BE, if, y'know, the oh-so-motherfucking-democratical government of the United States hadn't tried to COUP OUT CHAVEZ, an elected leader, REPLACING HIM WITH A MILITARY DICTATORSHIP!!!
When is the next Venezuelan election due?

It's certainly a better comparison than comparing Chavez' Venezuala to the regime of Hitler, and not entirely inaccurate.
To my knowledge both the regimes of America and Venezuela are somewhat authoritarian. I think that you have more freedom to criticise the government in the USA than in Venezuela, which is always the first thing to go in a fascist country.

When is the next Venezuelan election due?

December. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_presidential_election%2C_2006)

December. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_presidential_election%2C_2006)
I will watch with interest. Let us hope that it is judged to be free and fair, as was the last election there.

So what ? Having soviet made fighters and bombers never did any one else any good :D ANYWHERE at any TIME .:D The US shoud lend them the money...besides Russia needs the arms sales .

I will watch with interest. Let us hope that it is judged to be free and fair, as was the last election there.

The recall referendum of 2004 was. There are still rumors going around that Jimmy Carter got it wrong. The Parliamentary elections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_parliamentary_election%2C_2005) also had rumors of fraud going around them, and also had a extremely low turnout rate, although this could be because the major opposition parties didn't run, so people didn't bother to vote since there could be no other outcome.

Of course it's extremely difficult to find out what's actually really going on in Venezuela. Nearly everyone has an agenda of some kind.

Meh. Another nation buys Russian Aircraft. It's not like it'll help if the US military comes a-knocking.

December. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_presidential_election%2C_2006)

Funny. This page only lists Chavez as a "Prospective Candidate"

Does that mean he may not actually try to run again?

LOL at this whole thread. I think this is just about the most perfect nutcase NS General thread I've seen in a long time.

Meh. Another nation buys Russian Aircraft. It's not like it'll help if the US military comes a-knocking.

"The Su27's first flight was in 1977, 5 years after the first flight of the F15. Previously the west had claimed that the Soviet Union was at least a generation behind in fighter technology. The Su27 closes this gap and is the first eastern fighter which many western experts have claimed to be the best in the world."

Link (http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~junap95/fighters/su27.htm)

And, the Su30 is a two seat version with updated avionics, and in-flight refueling capability.

"A modified prototype of the Su30 was the first aircraft in the world to accellerate through the speed of sound vertically (up not down!). While other aircraft have been able to travell supersonic vertically none had perviously been able to acellerate to that extent (at least not reportedly)."

Nothing to sneeze at.

Funny. This page only lists Chavez as a "Prospective Candidate"

Does that mean he may not actually try to run again?

I don't think he's declared his candidacy yet. He might not do it. Anything's possible. I doubt it's very likely that he won't though.

"The Su27's first flight was in 1977, 5 years after the first flight of the F15. Previously the west had claimed that the Soviet Union was at least a generation behind in fighter technology. The Su27 closes this gap and is the first eastern fighter which many western experts have claimed to be the best in the world."

Link (http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~junap95/fighters/su27.htm)

And, the Su30 is a two seat version with updated avionics, and in-flight refueling capability.

"A modified prototype of the Su30 was the first aircraft in the world to accellerate through the speed of sound vertically (up not down!). While other aircraft have been able to travell supersonic vertically none had perviously been able to acellerate to that extent (at least not reportedly)."

Nothing to sneeze at.

Assuming they...

1. Maintain the Aircraft properly

2. Arm the Aircraft to specifications

Most importantly..

3. TRAINING!

I highly doubt that the Venezuelan pilots will be trained to American or Russian standards. The SU-27 is a fantastic aircraft in capable hands. I doubt that those pilots will be as capable as the pilots the aircraft were originally designed for.

A Venezuelan diplomat said his country is awaiting talks with Russia on buying new Russian jet fighters, a Russian news agency reported Friday, days after the United States imposed an arms embargo on the oil-rich South American country. Interfax also cited Ambassador Alexis Navarro Rojas as saying that President Hugo Chavez was seeking to visit Russia sometime in the coming months.
"We are awaiting a reply from the Russian side. President Chavez likes visiting Russia ," Rojas was quoted as saying by Interfax. Venezuelan pilots had already tested out Su-27 and Su-30 fighters, Rojas said. "They have simply fallen in love with the aircraft. They have also tried piloting the Su-35. Now we are waiting for talks to begin," he was quoted as saying. :D

I'm glad that Chavez is spending money on advanced weapons, rather than try to raise the living standards of the very people he promised to pull out of the mire of poverty.

Well, it's good to know that Chavez is spending his money on advanced weapons rather than the poor; I'm sure the oil industry could've used that money too...they're looking at a $56 billion shortfall in investment, and it's only getting bigger each day.

He's probably keeping them on tap to use against his own people or other South American nations rather than any foreign invaders, because the number of aircraft Venezuela has and the quality of its pilots are nothing compared to those of the US, China, Russia, or any other nation that might be interested in the region.

... in Venezuela does?

Let him rant and rave about teh evil OO ESS EH all he likes. Let him yak and talk and rant, because, let's face it Venezuela is a bit-player in the world. Venezuela to the US is less than a flea to a dog ... more like a flea to a whale.

The only reason Venezuela has any value outside of, er Venezuela, is because of its oil.

There are basically three places with huge amounts of oil ... the Middle East (perennially unstable), Venuezuela (oil tar sands) and that most unstable, violent , vicious war-monger, Canada.

I mean come on! With stellar oil prices now and no obvious signs of any return to $20 a barrel oil it makes perfect sense to invest heavily in Canada and say both to the Middle East and Venezuela 'Do WTF you like because we just don't care.'

Rant over.

... in Venezuela does?

Let him rant and rave about teh evil OO ESS EH all he likes. Let him yak and talk and rant, because, let's face it Venezuela is a bit-player in the world. Venezuela to the US is less than a flea to a dog ... more like a flea to a whale.

The only reason Venezuela has any value outside of, er Venezuela, is because of its oil.

There are basically three places with huge amounts of oil ... the Middle East (perennially unstable), Venuezuela (oil tar sands) and that most unstable, violent , vicious war-monger, Canada.

I mean come on! With stellar oil prices now and no obvious signs of any return to $20 a barrel oil it makes perfect sense to invest heavily in Canada and say both to the Middle East and Venezuela 'Do WTF you like because we just don't care.'

Rant over.

Oooo, those dastardly Canadians!

I'm glad that Chavez is spending money on advanced weapons, rather than try to raise the living standards of the very people he promised to pull out of the mire of poverty.

Yeah, I mean, he could be spending that money to help the poor, like Bush is doing, with about 300 billions allocated for war in Iraq and WAY less than that being invested in repairing New Orleans or other areas, such as healthcare.

Can someone else say "double standard"?

He's probably keeping them on tap to use against his own people or other South American nations rather than any foreign invaders, because the number of aircraft Venezuela has and the quality of its pilots are nothing compared to those of the US, China, Russia, or any other nation that might be interested in the region.

And you're angry because, this time, it wasn't done for the US (like when the US armed Saddam) or by the US (like when the US bombed Hiroshima), right? Furthermore, do you have ANY evidence at ALL to say that Chavez wants to bomb his own people anymore than a US president increasing military spending does?

Can someone else say "double standard"?
I keep sayin' it: god, do I LOVE double standards or what? :rolleyes:

Yah, More fodder to feed the Raptors.