NationStates Jolt Archive

The story on Kos is named "Welcome to Iraxico," and that's about what this article sounds like (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/05/19/ap_newsbreak_guard_stint_to_last_2_years/?rss_id=Boston.com+%2F+News).
SACRAMENTO, Calif. --President Bush's planned deployment of National Guard troops to the Mexican border would last at least two years with no clear end date, according to a Pentagon memo obtained Friday by The Associated Press.

The one-page "initial guidance" memo to National Guard leaders in border states does not address the estimated cost of the mission or when soldiers would be deployed. But high-ranking officials in the California National Guard said they were told Friday that deployments would not begin before early June....

The document described an "end date" for the mission when the U.S. Border Patrol operation "gains independent operational control of the (southwest border) and National Guard forces are no longer required for this mission."
No clear end date--check
No idea of the cost-check
As the Border Patrol stands up, the Guard will stand down--check

*sings "it's beginning to look a lot like Iraq.*

Of course, the Guard units on the border would much rather be there than in Iraq, no doubt--I doubt we'll see much in the way of Mexican IEDs--but it seems like the planning is at about the same level, so I guess that means we can go ahead and expect incompetence and dismay at pretty much every turn.

Take the poll.

I see no poll. How can I bitch without a poll telling me what I am whining about?

I see no poll. How can I bitch without a poll telling me what I am whining about?It takes a second sometimes.

Bushanomics is a laberal

Well He is!:D

Republican donors like cheap labour - Republican base don't like Mexicans.

DOES NOT COMPUTE!

Can't actually fine businesses that hire illegal immigrants because that would piss off the donors. Can't do nothing because that will piss off the base and they might realize that the Repubs don't always act in their best interest. So what to do? Make some grand gesture like calling out the national guard that will be incredibly expensive and most likely very ineffective that way you throw the nativists a bone without pissing off your donors. (Of course you are making America a worse place and adding to its huge debt, but it's not the government's job to look after the general welfare of the people or anything commie like that.)

Those damn Laberals! Almost as bad as those Bertish!

EDIT: Gar!

It takes a second sometimes.
I know, I just felt like being one of those jerks who gets in before the poll.

I think Bush will fuck this up too. My hope, is that Bush starts fucking things up at an accelerated rate causing Americans to think "He makes Hillory look good"

I think Bush will fuck this up too. My hope, is that Bush starts fucking things up at an accelerated rate causing Americans to think "He makes Hillory look good"

Monica makes Hillory look good. I say bring back the Gorster. His wife is hot.

I know, I just felt like being one of those jerks who gets in before the poll.

I think Bush will fuck this up too. My hope, is that Bush starts fucking things up at an accelerated rate causing Americans to think "He makes Hillory look good"
And if they think Hillary looks good, maybe they'll think Al Gore looks like a freaking superstar. Or Russ Feingold. Or hell, any Democrat.

I think the National Guard will do a good job. They won't have all the bureaucratic bullshit that comes up when you have U.S. Customs, Border Ptatrol, and the plethora of other agencies/branches working down there. The National Guard can fill in the gaps.

STOP RAGGIN ON BUSH!!!! HES A GREATER MAN THEN ANY OF YOU WILL EVER BE!:mad:

And if they think Hillary looks good, maybe they'll think Al Gore looks like a freaking superstar. Or Russ Feingold. Or hell, any Democrat.
You would think so, but the Democrats aren't taking advantage of this - their efforts at taking some advantage of this for the upcoming election cycle seems tepid to say the least.

Additionally, it takes money to get that message out. Thanks to Dean, the Democrats are screwed royally in the fundraising department.

I'd vote for Hillary, if only because she's a police state dreamer like myself.

STOP RAGGIN ON BUSH!!!! HES A GREATER MAN THEN ANY OF YOU WILL EVER BE!:mad:

Convincing argument.

STOP RAGGIN ON BUSH!!!! HES A GREATER MAN THEN ANY OF YOU WILL EVER BE!:mad:
Prove it.

I think the National Guard will do a good job. They won't have all the bureaucratic bullshit that comes up when you have U.S. Customs, Border Ptatrol, and the plethora of other agencies/branches working down there. The National Guard can fill in the gaps.

I didn't know there was much bureaucratic red tape for the border patrol. I just thought they just put people who cross illegally in the back of a truck and dump 'em back on the other side of the border.

STOP RAGGIN ON BUSH!!!! HES A GREATER MAN THEN ANY OF YOU WILL EVER BE!

Oh come on! My Prime Minister is an evil wizened little gnome and he is still a better leader than Bush. And his wife is hotter.

Oh come on! My Prime Minister is an evil wizened little gnome and he is still a better leader than Bush. And his wife is hotter.
I hear there are a lot of men who find that Prozac-and-gin gaze Laura puts on from time to time quite attractive.

I hear there are a lot of men who find that Prozac-and-gin gaze Laura puts on from time to time quite attractive.

I don't trust her. Everytime I see her I can just imagine her saying, "Oh honey, you just nuke them Aussies!"

(Of course you are making America a worse place and adding to its huge debt, but it's not the government's job to look after the general welfare of the people or anything commie like that.)

It's called "Starve the Beast" and is quite popular within some conservative circles (including the one curently in power). The point is to bankrupt the federal government to force so called "small government" and dismantle social programs. They're well aware of what they are doing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve-the-beast

It's called "Starve the Beast" and is quite popular within some conservative circles (including the one curently in power). The point is to bankrupt the federal government to force so called "small government" and dismantle social programs. They're well aware of what they are doing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve-the-beast

Let's see. They control the Presidency, they control the Congress, I think they control the Senate. Why don't they just cut spending if that's what they want?!? It looks like they are making a huge mess and relying on Democrats being more responsible than they are and cleaning it up. What a bunch of wankers.

Let's see. They control the Presidency, they control the Congress, I think they control the Senate. Why don't they just cut spending if that's what they want?!? It looks like they are making a huge mess and relying on Democrats being more responsible than they are and cleaning it up. What a bunch of wankers.
Because they don't want to cut it yet--right now, there's a chance the country could recover. No, these guys want the government so far in debt that in order to cover it, they'll cut Medicare, Social Security, everything but national defense, and that they'll want privatized.

Sorry, I'd like to apologise for reffering to the current U.S. administration as a bunch of wankers. It was wrong of me to lower the level of discourse on nationstates. To my knowledge the current administration is no more comprised of wankers than previous administrations and even though they commit acts of great wankatude I cannot logically say that they are therefore wankers.

I think sending out the NG is a fine idea.

They are just providing support for the already active border guard. Boosting the capabilities of a US force in action, I fail to see how thats a bad thing. I wouldn't have minded going down there, if I was still in the CANG. I don't like SoCal, but would have been fine doing it.

The differences are obvious. They are operating in a friendly, american enviornment. They aren't actually fighting. They are supporting the current border guard, not overthrowing it.

If you want to argue about what to do with immigration, fine. If you think there's a better way to deal with the illegal immigrants, propose it. But just saying there are a few vague connections with iraq, and hence its a bad idea, is really not a valid comparison, nor reason for concern.

Because they don't want to cut it yet--right now, there's a chance the country could recover. No, these guys want the government so far in debt that in order to cover it, they'll cut Medicare, Social Security, everything but national defense, and that they'll want privatized.
Neocons- History's biggest dicks.
I mean fuck. There are reasnable people that advocate cutting those programs, but how can you do so and then say that gays shouldn't marry and I shouldn't be able to smoke pot?
Ilogical nemrods.

Let's see. They control the Presidency, they control the Congress, I think they control the Senate. Why don't they just cut spending if that's what they want?!? It looks like they are making a huge mess and relying on Democrats being more responsible than they are and cleaning it up. What a bunch of wankers.

They know they won't always be in power. But if they totally screw up the federal budget, it won't matter who is in power next. Who ever takes over will either have to greatly increase taxes or slash spending. They will force it on the next guy.

I think sending out the NG is a fine idea.

They are just providing support for the already active border guard. Boosting the capabilities of a US force in action, I fail to see how thats a bad thing. I wouldn't have minded going down there, if I was still in the CANG. I don't like SoCal, but would have been fine doing it.

The differences are obvious. They are operating in a friendly, american enviornment. They aren't actually fighting. They are supporting the current border guard, not overthrowing it.

If you want to argue about what to do with immigration, fine. If you think there's a better way to deal with the illegal immigrants, propose it. But just saying there are a few vague connections with iraq, and hence its a bad idea, is really not a valid comparison, nor reason for concern.
I have never been fond of logic.

If you want to argue about what to do with immigration, fine. If you think there's a better way to deal with the illegal immigrants, propose it. But just saying there are a few vague connections with iraq, and hence its a bad idea, is really not a valid comparison, nor reason for concern.

Okay, I would say that a much cheaper way to deal with illegal immigration would be to fine people and companies who employ them. If they can't get jobs, very few will come.

An improved guest worker program would also help.

Personally I think there should be a Canada/U.S./Mexico free work zone in order to help spread American ideals of freedom and democracy throughout the North American continent, but that's just me. Some people think that these ideals aren't very strong and are under threat from foreign immigrants. What do I know? Maybe they're right.

If you want to argue about what to do with immigration, fine. If you think there's a better way to deal with the illegal immigrants, propose it. But just saying there are a few vague connections with iraq, and hence its a bad idea, is really not a valid comparison, nor reason for concern.
In this case, I'm not talking about the idea--I'm talking about the planning--or more correctly, the lack of planning--that went into the Iraq campaign and now seems to be going into this decision. It's not a perfect comparison, and I said so at the start, but it is evidence, I think, of a pattern of incompetence.

The story on Kos is named "Welcome to Iraxico," and that's about what this article sounds like (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2006/05/19/ap_newsbreak_guard_stint_to_last_2_years/?rss_id=Boston.com+%2F+News).

No clear end date--check
No idea of the cost-check
As the Border Patrol stands up, the Guard will stand down--check

*sings "it's beginning to look a lot like Iraq.*

Of course, the Guard units on the border would much rather be there than in Iraq, no doubt--I doubt we'll see much in the way of Mexican IEDs--but it seems like the planning is at about the same level, so I guess that means we can go ahead and expect incompetence and dismay at pretty much every turn.

Take the poll.

Guard needs to stay there indefinetly.

STOP RAGGIN ON BUSH!!!! HES A GREATER MAN THEN ANY OF YOU WILL EVER BE!:mad:
considering the number of women here, you're atleast partially correct...

Guard needs to stay there indefinetly.

Agreed. And perhaps get the military out of Iraq and put some of them down there too. Then on to the Northern border.

About the Neo-cons' little policies, it is classic behavior from those hypocritical idiots. Neo-con ideology has so many contradictions that I wonder how stupid (or intoxicated) someone would have to be to actually vote for those morons. I look no further than my own parents, who seem like smart people, but clearly lose all sense they may have had when the topic of politics comes about.
Neo-con ideals:
Less government inference in our lives--unless you aren't religious
Flat taxes--except for religious organizations not having to pay ANY taxes and creating loopholes for our rich friends to exploit of course
Fiscially conservative--but we spend more while collecting less in taxes.
Pro-growth of economy--unless we need to destroy the economy in order to undermine helpful...ahem...I mean wasteful programs.

Okay, I would say that a much cheaper way to deal with illegal immigration would be to fine people and companies who employ them. If they can't get jobs, very few will come.

An improved guest worker program would also help.

I completely agree with both of these, in addition to the guard bolstering the border guard. I don' think much of bush, don't get me wrong, I just support his sending the guard to the border, and a few other things from time to time(not often though).

You would think so, but the Democrats aren't taking advantage of this - their efforts at taking some advantage of this for the upcoming election cycle seems tepid to say the least.

Additionally, it takes money to get that message out. Thanks to Dean, the Democrats are screwed royally in the fundraising department.

I'd vote for Hillary, if only because she's a police state dreamer like myself.

A police state? Please tell me you're joking...

STOP RAGGIN ON BUSH!!!! HES A GREATER MAN THEN ANY OF YOU WILL EVER BE!:mad:

Get back under the table and finish your dinner like a good boy.

I didn't know there was much bureaucratic red tape for the border patrol. I just thought they just put people who cross illegally in the back of a truck and dump 'em back on the other side of the border.

AFTER they make them stand on a bucket for 14 hours naked with wires clipped to their testicles.

Personally I think there should be a Canada/U.S./Mexico free work zone in order to help spread American ideals of freedom and democracy throughout the North American continent, but that's just me. Some people think that these ideals aren't very strong and are under threat from foreign immigrants. What do I know? Maybe they're right.

Truly a great idea. I whole-heartedly agree.

how would a bunch of migrant farmers and walmart greeters make our country any better? just wondering?

STOP RAGGIN ON BUSH!!!! HES A GREATER MAN THEN ANY OF YOU WILL EVER BE!:mad:


Amen to that. All of you little Commie, greasy-haired liberal morons need a good ass-kicking. Go ahead, complain about Bush... It's ironic though that you so freely exercise YOUR rights to free speech, when if it was up to you, none of the Iraqis would be able to have free speech. I know you idiots think Bush is a "bad" man for creating a democratic society where free speech prevails, women aren't raped by Saddam, and there's no longer mass graves of attempted genocide. Come on, open your eyes! Hah... Bush is smarter than any of you disillusional liberals will ever be. And it kills you that he and other conservatives don't give a damn what you think! Morons...

My suspicions are confirmed. Nazz is one of the Kos Kidz.

Amen to that. All of you little Commie, greasy-haired liberal morons need a good ass-kicking. Go ahead, complain about Bush... It's ironic though that you so freely exercise YOUR rights to free speech, when if it was up to you, none of the Iraqis would be able to have free speech. I know you idiots think Bush is a "bad" man for creating a democratic society where free speech prevails, women aren't raped by Saddam, and there's no longer mass graves of attempted genocide. Come on, open your eyes! Hah... Bush is smarter than any of you disillusional liberals will ever be. And it kills you that he and other conservatives don't give a damn what you think! Morons...

Hi. Warned for flaming. Next time make your point without namecalling.

STOP RAGGIN ON BUSH!!!! HES A GREATER MAN THEN ANY OF YOU WILL EVER BE!:mad:

Meh. I give you a 2 out of 10 for that attepmt at trolling.

Let's see. They control the Presidency, they control the Congress, I think they control the Senate. Why don't they just cut spending if that's what they want?!? It looks like they are making a huge mess and relying on Democrats being more responsible than they are and cleaning it up. What a bunch of wankers.

Quite difficult to control the congress (House plus Senate) w/o controlling the Senate... ;)

Amen to that. All of you little Commie, greasy-haired liberal morons need a good ass-kicking. Go ahead, complain about Bush... It's ironic though that you so freely exercise YOUR rights to free speech, when if it was up to you, none of the Iraqis would be able to have free speech. I know you idiots think Bush is a "bad" man for creating a democratic society where free speech prevails, women aren't raped by Saddam, and there's no longer mass graves of attempted genocide. Come on, open your eyes! Hah... Bush is smarter than any of you disillusional liberals will ever be. And it kills you that he and other conservatives don't give a damn what you think! Morons...

If you actually believe the Dubya & friends give a flying fuck about the rights of the Iraqi people, you're the one who is delusional ('Disillusional' is not a word. Maybe a Bush-ism.)

No one mentioned spreading Democracy or the rights of the Iraqi people until they ran out of other excuses, EXCUSES for this ill-advised cluster-fuck Dubya calls a war.

I'd take the poll if it could be taken seriously. But the way you put the questions just make the whole thing into an invite to just another Bush bashing. Aren't you tired of that yet?

Hey. I've got an idea we've never tried before. He just now came out with an outline for a proposed plan to deal with the immigration issue. Let's wait until the plan is past the embryonic stage before we decide it is totally without merit solely because it has Bush's name at the top of it. Let's wait until more specific details are worked out. Then if it is bogus, so be it. I'll be the first one to jump on his case.

Don't think it's quite time yet, Nazz.

I think sending out the NG is a fine idea.

They are just providing support for the already active border guard. Boosting the capabilities of a US force in action, I fail to see how thats a bad thing. I wouldn't have minded going down there, if I was still in the CANG. I don't like SoCal, but would have been fine doing it.

The differences are obvious. They are operating in a friendly, american enviornment. They aren't actually fighting. They are supporting the current border guard, not overthrowing it.

If you want to argue about what to do with immigration, fine. If you think there's a better way to deal with the illegal immigrants, propose it. But just saying there are a few vague connections with iraq, and hence its a bad idea, is really not a valid comparison, nor reason for concern.

There are two other factors at play.

ITem 1) What Bush is suggesting is, in order to limit impact on readiness and to cut costs, that the NG rotate down to the border during their yearly two week training period. So the turnover rate on the border will be fresh faces every two weeks, so their effectiveness will be severely hampered by the time taken just to familliarize themselves with their surroundings. And also this denies them the actual training that they may need in order to be properly prepared should they be called up to serve overseas.

Item 2) If he had really been serious about boosting border control capabilities, why the hell did GW cut funding for new border agents just last year? (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/02/09/MNGOKB837T1.DTL)

From February 2005:
The law signed by President Bush less than two months ago to add thousands of border patrol agents along the U.S.-Mexico border has crashed into the reality of Bush's austere federal budget proposal, officials said Tuesday.

Officially approved by Bush on Dec. 17 after extensive bickering in Congress, the National Intelligence Reform Act included the requirement to add 10,000 border patrol agents in the five years beginning with 2006. Roughly 80 percent of the agents were to patrol the southern U.S. border from Texas to California, along which thousands of people cross into the United States illegally every year.

But Bush's proposed 2006 budget, revealed Monday, funds only 210 new border agents.

The shrunken increase reflects the lack of money for an army of border guards and the capacity to train them, officials said.


So, had he funded this program last year then by this year they would be on pace to have 4000 additional properly trained border agents on the job by the end of this year. Instead, he is asking for 6000 unarmed troops to play chauffeur to the stretched border services and STILL hasn't got new funding in place to build up the border services.

A two year stint waiting for border guards to appear out of unfunded thin air?


Bull!

'tis all smoke and mirrors to create the appearance of doing something to solve the problem.

Quite difficult to control the congress (House plus Senate) w/o controlling the Senate...

D'oh!

No clear end date--check
No idea of the cost-check

Sounds like Clintons deployments to the Balkans, Africa, and any other number of places in the 90s. Bet all the partisan hacks like Kos and Air(head) America would never had complained about those. I love how liberals only care about the military when there is something to gained politicaly from it. :gundge:

My suspicions are confirmed. Nazz is one of the Kos Kidz.
It's not exactly a secret--I've posted stuff here from there before and acknowledged it openly. Hell, I've had recommended diaries there and have been referenced on the front page before. Does that somehow diminish me in your eyes? I can't tell you how much that hurts me.:rolleyes:

I love how liberals only care about the military when there is something to gained politicaly from it. :gundge:

You mean like how republicrats hated Clinton's military deployments but applauded Bush jr's war?

I love how liberals only care about the military when there is something to gained politicaly from it.
Unlike the rest of you, who care passionately every November 11th. After that bit of chest-thumping of course, you're just itching to see some televised explosions. You carnage junkies.

Unlike the rest of you, who care passionately every November 11th. After that bit of chest-thumping of course, you're just itching to see some televised explosions. You carnage junkies.
Kiddo, my wife has more time in the service than you. Come back when you have even a remote idea of which you speak. Two soldiers in my small family, vs. you years of experience bashing soldiers on the web. :gundge:

Kiddo, my wife has more time in the service than you. Come back when you have even a remote idea of which you speak. Two soldiers in my small family, vs. you years of experience bashing soldiers on the web. :gundge:
And is that supposed to count for something?

P.S. Speaking only for myself, bashing the assholes who send soldiers needlessly into harm's way is a far cry from bashing soldiers--not that it ever seems to matter to you.