NationStates Jolt Archive

The Statue of Liberty is a painful reminder of the welcoming place the USA once was and is no more.

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." What an embarassment those words are now.

The Mahoneys, Jorgensen's, Cartier's and Holmes's have decided to slam the gate less than 200 years after their own immigration to the United States because a bunch of poor brown people want in. And what did their own ancestor's immigrate with? The shirts on their backs, more or less. But don't expect the middle class great-grandchildren of economical refuges to understand what a chance their ancestor's took to give them that life. The thought that they could have been born in Budapest and be on the public dole right now never occurs to them. And it was only the chance of birth that allowed them to be born in the USA at all.

But now they want to put up a wall, like the one that they were so happy to take credit for taking down in Berlin. Like the one the Israelis built along the Gaza strip. And for what? A few thousand migrant worker jobs? A few thousand janitor positions? A few thousand road construction jobs? A few thousand meat packing plant jobs? A few thousand hotel maid jobs? Jobs that white people would rather die than take?

Take down the Statue of Liberty. She is a reminder of our former unselfishness and generous humanitarian spirit. It is long gone and in its wake we plan to build a monument to fear and greed...a 370 mile fence...a militarized zone...to keep out the brown people who will work hard and long for very little pay and no benefits.

And yet many of us will be forced to retire to Mexico because we won't be able to live in the USA on our savings after social security is bankrupt. What a great hypocricy we live.

Well you seem to have put plain and simple therefore i cannot add anything more...but on the lighter note...after you retire at the age of 65-70 you most likely would have about 25 different health problems so your social security is not one of your major issues

Plus, the statue was from the French. Who wants that?

The Statue of Liberty is a painful reminder of the welcoming place the USA once was and is no more.

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." What an embarassment those words are now.

The Mahoneys, Jorgensen's, Cartier's and Holmes's have decided to slam the gate less than 200 years after their own immigration to the United States because a bunch of poor brown people want in. And what did their own ancestor's immigrate with? The shirts on their backs, more or less. But don't expect the middle class great-grandchildren of economical refuges to understand what a chance their ancestor's took to give them that life. The thought that they could have been born in Budapest and be on the public dole right now never occurs to them. And it was only the chance of birth that allowed them to be born in the USA at all.

But now they want to put up a wall, like the one that they were so happy to take credit for taking down in Berlin. Like the one the Israelis built along the Gaza strip. And for what? A few thousand migrant worker jobs? A few thousand janitor positions? A few thousand road construction jobs? A few thousand meat packing plant jobs? A few thousand hotel maid jobs? Jobs that white people would rather die than take?

Take down the Statue of Liberty. She is a reminder of our former unselfishness and generous humanitarian spirit. It is long gone and in its wake we plan to build a monument to fear and greed...a 370 mile fence...a militarized zone...to keep out the brown people who will work hard and long for very little pay and no benefits.

And yet many of us will be forced to retire to Mexico because we won't be able to live in the USA on our savings after social security is bankrupt. What a great hypocricy we live.
Another product of our fine government run school system. Do a little checking on what requirements had to be met before immigrants were allowed into the U.S. Do a little more checking on what happened if they weren't. Don't forget to take off the rose-colored glasses first.

Another product of our fine government run school system. Do a little checking on what requirements had to be met before immigrants were allowed into the U.S. Do a little more checking on what happened if they weren't. Don't forget to take off the rose-colored glasses first.

Oh, and make sure he doesn't read the books selected by the California public school system.

Another product of our fine government run school system. Do a little checking on what requirements had to be met before immigrants were allowed into the U.S. Do a little more checking on what happened if they weren't. Don't forget to take off the rose-colored glasses first.
You mean how during most of the waves of immigration the US didn't require passports or visas and how all the immigrant had to have was someone to vouch for him or her? Or how the tests to keep those out (coming from Europe, those of Asian decent faced quotas if not outright blockades) consisted of looking to see if someone had the plague or was insane? How about the the literacy test was conducted in the person's native lanaguge in the country of birth?

Or the wait at Elis was hours, maybe a few days, as opposed to years? How the border was open and anyone could and did walk across at will?

Fact check yourself.

Hear, hear, Unrestrained Merrimaki!

Excellent points.

You mean how during most of the waves of immigration the US didn't require passports or visas and how all the immigrant had to have was someone to vouch for him or her? Or how the tests to keep those out (coming from Europe, those of Asian decent faced quotas if not outright blockades) consisted of looking to see if someone had the plague or was insane? How about the the literacy test was conducted in the person's native lanaguge in the country of birth?

Or the wait at Elis was hours, maybe a few days, as opposed to years? How the border was open and anyone could and did walk across at will?

Fact check yourself.

Wow. You almost left out the anti-Chinese immigration - just mentioned it in passing.

No, they looked to see if you weren't white.

Another product of our fine government run school system. Do a little checking on what requirements had to be met before immigrants were allowed into the U.S. Do a little more checking on what happened if they weren't. Don't forget to take off the rose-colored glasses first.

Before about 1890? Can you say: "None at all"?

In 1890 we betrayed our own principals and created the racist immigration codes (descended from Whig/Know Nothing influences in the Republican party and racism in the Dixy-Dems) which held up until 1970, at which point they were replaced by laws that judged by your "Utility" to the US.

The problem is that there is no good reason for limiting immigration to the US.

And even if we had restricted it in the past... is that any reason to continue to do so today? Come on. :rolleyes:

I believe the statue says ""Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses...", not "Fuck it, just let everyone in."

Wow. You almost left out the anti-Chinese immigration - just mentioned it in passing.

No, they looked to see if you weren't white.
No, they looked to see if you weren't Asian. Like I said, the border wtih Mexico was wide open.

I found this to be an enlighting article on the history:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/07/AR2006050700721.html
*Washington Post, registration or Bug Me Not required*

I believe the statue says ""Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses...", not "Fuck it, just let everyone in."
It says,

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Plus, the statue was from the French. Who wants that?

An unwanted gift too, apparently for the Russians so the USA got the unwanted gift. :p

There's no need to get rid of the statue of Liberty. Just get rid of the torch and give her a raised index finger instead.

I believe the statue says ""Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses...", not "Fuck it, just let everyone in."
Um, ok, so why is that a reason not to let everyone in anyway?

Um, ok, so why is that a reason not to let everyone in anyway?

Well, because without migration control, you might as well just merge with Mexico. You know that Mexico has a lot of problems, right? That's why people want to leave. And just letting in waves of people will just bring Mexican problems to the US. It's like paying off a credit card with another credit card.

Another product of our fine government run school system. Do a little checking on what requirements had to be met before immigrants were allowed into the U.S. Do a little more checking on what happened if they weren't. Don't forget to take off the rose-colored glasses first.
Exactly. When some of my relatives moved to the United States before WWII, they had to have jobs (not off the books), sponsors, a good grasp of English and if they so much as coughed or sneezed once, they were sent back. Today, they can go on welfare, demand their education and voting to be in their own language, and bring in diseases. Although most immigrants come here to work, most, not wanting to be at a disadvantage, learn English (bilingual education is something mostly being pushed only by the loony NEA teacher's union as a ploy to increase membership with all of the Spanish speakers that will need to be hired) and most come in healthy, we live in a much different time than when most of our grandparents came to America. Back then, there was not a social system nor permissive attitude that encouraged people to break the law or become parasites.
I would actually support a more open immigration policy, maybe even open borders under more ideal conditions. The US needs to stop catering to those few who refuse to learn the primary language, cut off all government services to non-citizens and send back anyone who has so much as a head cold.

Exactly. When some of my relatives moved to the United States before WWII, they had to have jobs (not off the books), sponsors, a good grasp of English and if they so much as coughed or sneezed once, they were sent back. Today, they can go on welfare, demand their education and voting to be in their own language, and bring in diseases. Although most immigrants come here to work, most, not wanting to be at a disadvantage, learn English (bilingual education is something mostly being pushed only by the loony NEA teacher's union as a ploy to increase membership with all of the Spanish speakers that will need to be hired) and most come in healthy, we live in a much different time than when most of our grandparents came to America. Back then, there was not a social system nor permissive attitude that encouraged people to break the law or become parasites.
I would actually support a more open immigration policy, maybe even open borders under more ideal conditions. The US needs to stop catering to those few who refuse to learn the primary language, cut off all government services to non-citizens and send back anyone who has so much as a head cold.

Mmm. In my English class, we're reading the play "A View from the Bridge." Although it's hardly first hand evidence, man, that book makes modern immigration seem easy.

Mmm. In my English class, we're reading the play "A View from the Bridge." Although it's hardly first hand evidence, man, that book makes modern immigration seem easy.
You think modern immigration is easy?
Look again: http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/formsfee/forms/index.htm

Pre-WWII would be an improvement actually.

You think modern immigration is easy?
Look again: http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/formsfee/forms/index.htm

Pre-WWII would be an improvement actually.

Not for anyone from Asia.

Not for anyone from Asia.
It's not an improvement for anyone from Asia NOW.

You think modern immigration is easy?
Look again: http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/formsfee/forms/index.htm

Pre-WWII would be an improvement actually.

Wow. Forms. A truly impassable obstacle.

It's not an improvement for anyone from Asia NOW.

It's meant to be difficult for everyone. Harder the immigration, more likely immigrants are to assimulate well, I assume.

It's not an improvement for anyone from Asia NOW.
Hey at least they let some in now.

Back before WW II, it was very rare indeed. Anti-immigration laws for Chinese, for instance.

Another product of our fine government run school system. Do a little checking on what requirements had to be met before immigrants were allowed into the U.S. Do a little more checking on what happened if they weren't. Don't forget to take off the rose-colored glasses first.

That's what happens when you redirect funds from the school system and place them in the military ;)

An unwanted gift too, apparently for the Russians so the USA got the unwanted gift. :p
Nope. The statue was originally destined for Egypt and didn't bear the poem.

There's no need to get rid of the statue of Liberty. Just get rid of the torch and give her a raised index finger instead.
You mean middle finger, right?

*snip*
Back then, there was not a social system nor permissive attitude that encouraged people to break the law or become parasites.
*snip*

Huh? How are people encouraged to break the law, exactly? If you mean by being paid under the table or working undocumented, that's not the immigrants' fault. Perhaps you'd be okay with laws punishing the companies who use undocumented immigrant labor (similar to the idea of not executing drug dealers, but the rich white bankers who launder the drug money). The only way to ever stem the tide of any undesirable practice is to remove its profitability. Follow the money.

If you don't want it, can I have it?

I always wanted to put it down in Antarctica and recreate that photo from The Day After Tomorrow.

Very poetic imagery, by the way. Top marks for this thread.

There's no need to get rid of the statue of Liberty. Just get rid of the torch and give her a raised index finger instead.

Change index finger to middle finger, and strategically place the statue so it is directly facing Mecca, and I am all for it.

Dude can I make this my signature ????

I believe the statue says ""Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses...", not "Fuck it, just let everyone in."

I believe the statue says ""Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses...", not "Fuck it, just let everyone in."

Well when everyone is tired, poor, and huddled it kind of does.

The Statue of Liberty is a painful reminder of the welcoming place the USA once was and is no more.

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." What an embarassment those words are now.

The Mahoneys, Jorgensen's, Cartier's and Holmes's have decided to slam the gate less than 200 years after their own immigration to the United States because a bunch of poor brown people want in. And what did their own ancestor's immigrate with? The shirts on their backs, more or less. But don't expect the middle class great-grandchildren of economical refuges to understand what a chance their ancestor's took to give them that life. The thought that they could have been born in Budapest and be on the public dole right now never occurs to them. And it was only the chance of birth that allowed them to be born in the USA at all.

But now they want to put up a wall, like the one that they were so happy to take credit for taking down in Berlin. Like the one the Israelis built along the Gaza strip. And for what? A few thousand migrant worker jobs? A few thousand janitor positions? A few thousand road construction jobs? A few thousand meat packing plant jobs? A few thousand hotel maid jobs? Jobs that white people would rather die than take?

Take down the Statue of Liberty. She is a reminder of our former unselfishness and generous humanitarian spirit. It is long gone and in its wake we plan to build a monument to fear and greed...a 370 mile fence...a militarized zone...to keep out the brown people who will work hard and long for very little pay and no benefits. Ms13 ring a bell? Alqaeda ring a bell? Oh crap they have brown skin, better letem' all come on in

And yet many of us will be forced to retire to Mexico because we won't be able to live in the USA on our savings after social security is bankrupt. What a great hypocricy we live.

The immigrants today don't come for freedom, they come for handouts, free money, and social welfare. A far cry from the immigrants of the time you are thinking of.

No, it ISN'T wrong to have fenced borders. Fenced borders make men more honest.

Change index finger to middle finger, and strategically place the statue so it is directly facing Mecca, and I am all for it.

BWahAHAAHAHAHA! :D

:eek:


Dude, don't make the ROP angry.

The immigrants today don't come for freedom, they come for handouts, free money, and social welfare. A far cry from the immigrants of the time you are thinking of.


Ever ask one?

I am pretty sure that people coming from opressive regimes have the "not having the front door kicked in at midnight and getting put up against a wall and shot" pretty high up on the list.

I dont know where I would be without immigrant run kebab shops. Okay, that sounds slightly racist, but the point is, most of them DO work.

And if there is going to be welfare and free houses for criminal smack-heads, why not immigrants. Deport a criminal addict for every immigrant that came in. Theres a thought.

You think modern immigration is easy?
Look again: http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/formsfee/forms/index.htm

Pre-WWII would be an improvement actually.

Jesus Christ.

And look at those fees. I guess if you're one of the poorer of the tired, huddled masses, you're screwed.

And people wonder why immigrants will immigrate illegally.

And people wonder why immigrants will immigrate illegally.

The reasons are right there. Its alot harder to become a citizen, and the wait is about 10 years. Theres no incentive to become a citizen for these people, which is why they dont.

We should probably erase the motto, E Pluribus Unum, as well.

We need some kind of border control, just to make sure we don't get a lot a criminals [1] or terrorists. That doesn't mean we can't make it easier for the immigrants who will actually contribute to our society, but we can't let everyone in.

[1] By criminals, I mean the ones who were criminals back home, not just immigration criminals.

The reasons are right there. Its alot harder to become a citizen, and the wait is about 10 years. Theres no incentive to become a citizen for these people, which is why they dont.

Plus, on most of those forms is the message: "Failure to follow these instructions may result in your application or petition being delayed or denied."

So unless you're flawless at bureacratic skills - I know I'm not - you get delayed if they find any clerical errors. Or denied. Then you have to fill them out again. And pay the fees again, of course. Good thing immigrants have money and time in great quantity!

We should probably erase the motto, E Pluribus Unum, as well.

Maybe so. It's not in English, after all!

Another product of our fine government run school system. Do a little checking on what requirements had to be met before immigrants were allowed into the U.S. Do a little more checking on what happened if they weren't. Don't forget to take off the rose-colored glasses first.

I am assuming, from your remark, that you didn't go to school and therefore are not ALSO a product of our fine government run school system?

The immigrants today don't come for freedom, they come for handouts, free money, and social welfare. A far cry from the immigrants of the time you are thinking of.

No, it ISN'T wrong to have fenced borders. Fenced borders make men more honest.
I have a feeling they come to WORK for their money, weather that ends up being the case most people dont come just to leach

You know what? I'm an American citizen who is also a German citizen, and here is what I have to say: most Americans are so nasty, I am seriously going back to Germany! So, your strategy worked: one fewer immigrant!
(of course, I'm probably not the sort you're trying to kick out, but still.)
Still, when you have your government overthrown and the dictators start running things, I'll be laughing in the E.U.!!!
(Just a joke, but still... cue bitter laughter.)

Seriously though, I like the U.S. - it's just that your leaders (and the biggoted red-necks in the south) are so idiotic, that it makes one long for a sane government. (Go Angela Merkle and all that!)

I have a feeling they come to WORK for their money, weather that ends up being the case most people dont come just to leach

I agree.

And who would understand the finer points of mooching better than a good old home-grown mooch? Me thinketh he protesteth too much. I find that guys who make less than their wives, with a history of unemployment, tend to complain the loudest about people on public assistance.

Ever ask one?

I am pretty sure that people coming from opressive regimes have the "not having the front door kicked in at midnight and getting put up against a wall and shot" pretty high up on the list.

I dont know where I would be without immigrant run kebab shops. Okay, that sounds slightly racist, but the point is, most of them DO work.

And if there is going to be welfare and free houses for criminal smack-heads, why not immigrants. Deport a criminal addict for every immigrant that came in. Theres a thought.

Nope-actions speak words.

Deport the criminals-illegal aliens ARE criminals by nature, since they break the law by crossing the border illegaly.

The thing is, even back when ellis island was used, people still went through the proper channels to get into the country. All those people standing there just having to do those few things to get in? That was the process then, just as there is a process now.

As for the mexican border back then. That area of the USA was a helluva lot less populated then it is now, people didnt care if there were mexican immigrating then because there was no government services to use, it was move in and get a job or die of starvation. Now, you just have to cross the border and chances are you can get government aid. Granted, most people who do come over get jobs but its those that dont that make all of them look bad. If they want to come in, then they can do the same thing people did in the 1800's follow the proper process. We still have the same thing we did back then, People to help you with your paperwork and to help you get things done right.

You dont think a wall is needed? What did we have keeping people out from europe in the 1800's? A giant freaking ocean. thats a pretty good wall. The ships carrying immigrants had to dock somewhere. What do you think would happen to the captains of those ships if they just docked somewhere hidden and let all the passengers off without proper immigration rules being followed?

There is also the more modern problem of terrorists. Granted, most of the ones that have hit us in the past have acually used proper channels to get into the country, there is always the possability now that more of them wont, as we know what to look for now. The mexican border is the most logical location to come in to as well, its a boat ride to mexico then a drive/walk into america if you know the right back roads. How hard do you think it would be for somebody to smuggle something truly deadly into the country using those wide open routes? Hell, drug dealers do constantly. Wouldnt it be just as easy for somebody to bring something toxic in, like chemical or biological agents? High explosives?

That & to properly document the flow of people into this country, are why stricter legislation is being inacted.

I am assuming, from your remark, that you didn't go to school and therefore are not ALSO a product of our fine government run school system?
Ever hear of parochial school? Ever hear of private school? Not everyone is indoctrinated by a government run school. But, you are. And it shows.

(and the biggoted red-necks in the south)

mmm...tungsteny

I say we let them come in. Immigrants are great for the economy.

The statue of liberty is a reminder of the freedoms you could have had, and the hope you should have had. It sells a lot of tourist propaganda.

Rip it down now.

Ever hear of parochial school? Ever hear of private school? Not everyone is indoctrinated by a government run school. But, you are. And it shows.
Yeah, getting the opportunity to be exposed to widely differing view-points is so bad.

Right I have noticed a lot of insulting other peoples political opinions here (more in the earlier two pages) of people calling them idiotic and the such. A political historian once said...
Stubbornly ridiculing a mans political opinion rather than trying to understand his point of view is the first step to the downfall of democracy. All political ideas, no matter how absurd sounding are equal and deserve consideration rather than ridicule.
Well it was roughly that, it was slightly more eloquant than I have put it. Any way back on topic and back to my point

Take down the Statue of Liberty. She is a reminder of our former unselfishness and generous humanitarian spirit.

Wait wait. Your former unselfishness. "give us your tired, hungry huddled masses... So we can give them the land of the Natives that we have just butchered." In my honest opinion you never deserved to have a statue of liberty in the first place. What your nation did to the Natives was close to Genocide. It honestly makes me sick that you think your the US was ever deserved of a statue of Liberty as at one time or another Liberty has been denied to some minorities in your Nation.

There is also the more modern problem of terrorists. Granted, most of the ones that have hit us in the past have acually used proper channels to get into the country, there is always the possability now that more of them wont, as we know what to look for now. The mexican border is the most logical location to come in to as well, its a boat ride to mexico then a drive/walk into america if you know the right back roads. How hard do you think it would be for somebody to smuggle something truly deadly into the country using those wide open routes? Hell, drug dealers do constantly. Wouldnt it be just as easy for somebody to bring something toxic in, like chemical or biological agents? High explosives?

Terrorism is not a big deal. Homeland Security *coughs* miniluv *sneezes* are making far too much of it, so that it's easier to get support for ridiculous laws.

"Hmm yes, the police have been turned into the Gestapo... anyone who points this out HATES FREEDOM and IS A THREAT TO THE FUTURE OF THIS GREAT NATION!"

And let's face it, they could always come in on holiday, they might have contacts in the USA already. And don't say that you are willing to take tourism away as a part of the US economy, just to make sure. That'd be crazy. And would smack economic freedom in the face.

Why don't people try to live their lives normally. July 7th gets shoved down the various throats of the UK to a far-too-often degree. And that disgusts me. I imagine the same goes for September 11th in the USA.

And yet many of us will be forced to retire to Mexico because we won't be able to live in the USA on our savings after social security is bankrupt. What a great hypocricy we live.


I will. Its a great place once you get past the border towns. Very 1950s in flavor and temerament.

Personally, its not the terrorists themselves that i'm concerned about. A lone person, or a group of people that are unarmed.. is pretty much harmless. They might be able to get their hands on some standard weaponry but explosives and such are illegal pretty much everywhere unless your in demolitions.

Its the materials coming across the border that concern me. If you can run hundreds of pounds of weed, cocaine.. etc across the borders daily, it would not be that hard to transport a few canisters of biological agent. the kind of thing saddam used on his civilians. the kind that the USSR and USA both had giant stockpiles of. Thats what i dont want to see get across the border.

Right I have noticed a lot of insulting other peoples political opinions here (more in the earlier two pages) of people calling them idiotic and the such. A political historian once said...

Well it was roughly that, it was slightly more eloquant than I have put it. Any way back on topic and back to my point



Wait wait. Your former unselfishness. "give us your tired, hungry huddled masses... So we can give them the land of the Natives that we have just butchered." In my honest opinion you never deserved to have a statue of liberty in the first place. What your nation did to the Natives was close to Genocide. It honestly makes me sick that you think your the US was ever deserved of a statue of Liberty as at one time or another Liberty has been denied to some minorities in your Nation.

The Statue of Liberty, like the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights represents an ideal that the United States used to strive for. The people who wrote it didn't meet that ideal. They even knew they didn't. They were a bunch of white male landholding slaveowners who said, "All men are created equal".

But they DID understand the purpose of reaching for that ideal and of constantly opening eyes and minds and destroying the molds of past governments.

Pity we seem to have blinded ourselves to that struggle in the name of security.

Why don't people try to live their lives normally. July 7th gets shoved down the various throats of the UK to a far-too-often degree. And that disgusts me. I imagine the same goes for September 11th in the USA.

It sure does. When it happened, I thought the terrorists were fools and morons. I thought they didn't understand us at all if they thought September 11th would damage this country. I thought that if anything, it would make us even more aware of the importance of what our country rpresents to it's people.

Seems I was wrong. More has been done to destroy America since that day than was done ON that day. ANd it's being done by AMericans. *sigh*

Right I have noticed a lot of insulting other peoples political opinions here (more in the earlier two pages) of people calling them idiotic and the such. A political historian once said...

Well it was roughly that, it was slightly more eloquant than I have put it. Any way back on topic and back to my point



Wait wait. Your former unselfishness. "give us your tired, hungry huddled masses... So we can give them the land of the Natives that we have just butchered." In my honest opinion you never deserved to have a statue of liberty in the first place. What your nation did to the Natives was close to Genocide. It honestly makes me sick that you think your the US was ever deserved of a statue of Liberty as at one time or another Liberty has been denied to some minorities in your Nation.

No, we never deserved a statue of liberty. For over a century people from all over the world have sought to make their home in America, uprooting themselves from their lifestyles to make a new one in a new land for absolutely nothing. No, America has never represented, embodied, if you will, the dream and success of the individual, a triumph of the people and a testament to the strength of democracy. I won't deny that injustices were done to Native Americans and minorities in the past, but the fact remains that America, the United States of America, represents to millions of people the manifestation of liberty. Today, people look on America and say, "look at all the crime, look at all the injustice in the system, look at the corruption. Look at its history, covered in the blood of helpless innocents and how the voice of the many tramples the rights of the few." Yet name any other country, complete with all its faults, that affords its citizens more civil liberties, more economic freedom AND more political voice than the U.S. Furthermore, name any other country that attracts and possesses a more diverse group of peoples than America, and THEN we will question whether or not the "US deserved a Statue of Liberty."

Personally, its not the terrorists themselves that i'm concerned about. A lone person, or a group of people that are unarmed.. is pretty much harmless. They might be able to get their hands on some standard weaponry but explosives and such are illegal pretty much everywhere unless your in demolitions.

Its the materials coming across the border that concern me. If you can run hundreds of pounds of weed, cocaine.. etc across the borders daily, it would not be that hard to transport a few canisters of biological agent. the kind of thing saddam used on his civilians. the kind that the USSR and USA both had giant stockpiles of. Thats what i dont want to see get across the border.

No, because anyone crossing the border is full of hopes dreams, and brotherhood! How dare you suggest otherwise!

Yep! Hopes & Dreams and Brotherhood!

(Hopes) I sure hope i dont get caught.. this sarin gas would get me thrown in prison for life!

(Hopes) I hope i get this canister to that 40 thousand person convention in time..

(Dream) I'll get 70 Virgins for this.. Ah.. 70 Virgins

(Brotherhood) JIHAD MY BROTHERS!! AHHHLALALALALALALALLA

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." What an embarassment those words are now.

Those words were added later, having nothing to do with the original statue.

The statue is actually a gift celebrating the USA's first 100 years as a nation.

It has absolutely nothing to do with any immigration.

Plus, the US didn't take every person that came to Ellis Island, in fact we were very selective, filtering out many of the defectives and sending them back. So, no, we were never an open society taking every foreigner in.

The world was an extremely different place during the time that the statue was erected--it's hardly fair to say we should take it down because we want to close the borders. I heard a report yesterday that a rancher down on the border has noticed that 10% of the people he stops that are illegal don't speak Spanish. Honestly, that doesn't make me comfortable, and neither does the fact that so much stuff for dirty bombs is brought over the border. This is about security, not exclusion.

(and the biggoted red-necks in the south)

T_T.

Will people quit knocking on the South? Most of the stereotypical rednecks are in West Virginia, and that's not even part of the South >P.

Ever hear of parochial school? Ever hear of private school? Not everyone is indoctrinated by a government run school. But, you are. And it shows.

I went to public school, therefore I think with an open mind? Is that what gets your goat? That I don't spew back the same bullshit the church dishes out? What IS it exactly that annoys you about public education?

I went to public school, therefore I think with an open mind? Is that what gets your goat? That I don't spew back the same bullshit the church dishes out? What IS it exactly that annoys you about public education?

Probably 'cause they can't test students too hard otherwise they sue becuase of so called "discrimination".

Wait wait. Your former unselfishness. "give us your tired, hungry huddled masses... So we can give them the land of the Natives that we have just butchered." In my honest opinion you never deserved to have a statue of liberty in the first place. What your nation did to the Natives was close to Genocide. It honestly makes me sick that you think your the US was ever deserved of a statue of Liberty as at one time or another Liberty has been denied to some minorities in your Nation.

Point well made. No arguement here. I stand corrected. And what nation might you be from madam? Not another one of the imperialist nations I should dare hope?

Plus, the US didn't take every person that came to Ellis Island, in fact we were very selective, filtering out many of the defectives and sending them back. So, no, we were never an open society taking every foreigner in.

Filtering out many of the defectives???

LOL Now, let me guess, you are anti-abortion too?

Defectives.....LOL

Probably 'cause they can't test students too hard otherwise they sue becuase of so called "discrimination".
Congratulations! You have won the prestigious "I have no fucking idea what I'm talking about" award for May 19th!

Probably 'cause they can't test students too hard otherwise they sue becuase of so called "discrimination".

Where do you get these ideas? Is this what they teach in parochial school? LOL <snort!> LOL

Yet name any other country, complete with all its faults, that affords its citizens more civil liberties(1), more economic freedom(2a) AND more political voice (2b)than the U.S. Furthermore, name any other country that attracts and possesses a more diverse group of peoples than America, (3) and THEN we will question whether or not the "US deserved a Statue of Liberty."

(1) Most European Union Nations now have the European Human rights act. IIRC the only 'right' that is not included in the act that is in your constitution is the right to bear arms. We, the European Nations can take any human rights abuses to the European Courts and get any offending law overturned. So just pick an EU member state because any has the potential to have as many civil liberties as the USA.

(2) Wow your economic freedom. The freedom for major corporations such as Wal-Mart and Macdonalds to outcompete and shut down smaller independant buisness. Great, I really envy you.

(2b) Political freedom? What do you think we are over here? All living under Monarchs or despot dictators? We all have Parliaments, most European countrys have not banned the Communist Party, unlike you (IIRC). Lets see, what else. Oh yes, I do not think there is a EU country who's president actualy got less votes than his opponent at the elections. *cough-Bush-cough* (in 2000 obviously). You are living in a country where a man wins 19 million votes but gets zero electoral collage votes. Hmm yea, I envy your repesentation.

Most do not have the rediculous over-representation that is presented by your 2 senators per state system (Meaning that states with a couple of million people send 2 senators to the senate and so do states with 30 million people). That isn't representation.

(3)Most European countries have just as diverse populations as you do. Most of the people I know have foreign ancestry somewhere down the line. Be it Russian, Jamaican, African, Japanese, Chinese, Afgani, Danish, Argentinian, Irish, Italian. Hell, in Britain where I live at the moment there are immigrants from everywhere. Infact, Britain now has the highest Immigration rate in Europe.
(Most of us had abolished slavery before 1863 too ;) .)

And what nation might you be from madam? Not another one of the imperialist nations I should dare hope?

1) I'm a guy
2) Sorry no. I was born in Ireland.

No, we never deserved a statue of liberty. For over a century people from all over the world have sought to make their home in America, uprooting themselves from their lifestyles to make a new one in a new land for absolutely nothing. No, America has never represented, embodied, if you will, the dream and success of the individual, a triumph of the people and a testament to the strength of democracy. I won't deny that injustices were done to Native Americans and minorities in the past, but the fact remains that America, the United States of America, represents to millions of people the manifestation of liberty. Today, people look on America and say, "look at all the crime, look at all the injustice in the system, look at the corruption. Look at its history, covered in the blood of helpless innocents and how the voice of the many tramples the rights of the few." Yet name any other country, complete with all its faults, that affords its citizens more civil liberties, more economic freedom AND more political voice than the U.S. Furthermore, name any other country that attracts and possesses a more diverse group of peoples than America, and THEN we will question whether or not the "US deserved a Statue of Liberty."

There's Canada.

(1) Most European Union Nations now have the European Human rights act. IIRC the only 'right' that is not included in the act that is in your constitution is the right to bear arms. We, the European Nations can take any human rights abuses to the European Courts and get any offending law overturned. So just pick an EU member state because any has the potential to have as many civil liberties as the USA.

(2) Wow your economic freedom. The freedom for major corporations such as Wal-Mart and Macdonalds to outcompete and shut down smaller independant buisness. Great, I really envy you.

(2b) Political freedom? What do you think we are over here? All living under Monarchs or despot dictators? We all have Parliaments, most European countrys have not banned the Communist Party, unlike you (IIRC). Lets see, what else. Oh yes, I do not think there is a EU country who's president actualy got less votes than his opponent at the elections. *cough-Bush-cough* (in 2000 obviously). You are living in a country where a man wins 19 million votes but gets zero electoral collage votes. Hmm yea, I envy your repesentation.

Most do not have the rediculous over-representation that is presented by your 2 senators per state system (Meaning that states with a couple of million people send 2 senators to the senate and so do states with 30 million people). That isn't representation.

(3)Most European countries have just as diverse populations as you do. Most of the people I know have foreign ancestry somewhere down the line. Be it Russian, Jamaican, African, Japanese, Chinese, Afgani, Danish, Argentinian, Irish, Italian. Hell, in Britain where I live at the moment there are immigrants from everywhere. Infact, Britain now has the highest Immigration rate in Europe.
(Most of us had abolished slavery before 1863 too ;) .)



1) I'm a guy
2) Sorry no. I was born in Ireland.

Well Dupitable's argument dwarfs mine in comparison. Good man. :D

Wait wait. Your former unselfishness. "give us your tired, hungry huddled masses... So we can give them the land of the Natives that we have just butchered." In my honest opinion you never deserved to have a statue of liberty in the first place. What your nation did to the Natives was close to Genocide. It honestly makes me sick that you think your the US was ever deserved of a statue of Liberty as at one time or another Liberty has been denied to some minorities in your Nation.
Well if we judge every nation by that standard we should just move the statue to India

Well if we judge every nation by that standard we should just move the statue to India

Whoops. The hindu/muslim thing.

I say Pitcarin Island!

I went to public school, therefore I think with an open mind? Is that what gets your goat? That I don't spew back the same bullshit the church dishes out? What IS it exactly that annoys you about public education?
Actually, my goat is irritated by your rash assumptions. My only objection to government education is that it's no longer an institution for learning, but for social experimentation.

The Statue of Liberty is a painful reminder of the welcoming place the USA once was and is no more.

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." What an embarassment those words are now.

The Mahoneys, Jorgensen's, Cartier's and Holmes's have decided to slam the gate less than 200 years after their own immigration to the United States because a bunch of poor brown people want in. And what did their own ancestor's immigrate with? The shirts on their backs, more or less. But don't expect the middle class great-grandchildren of economical refuges to understand what a chance their ancestor's took to give them that life. The thought that they could have been born in Budapest and be on the public dole right now never occurs to them. And it was only the chance of birth that allowed them to be born in the USA at all.

But now they want to put up a wall, like the one that they were so happy to take credit for taking down in Berlin. Like the one the Israelis built along the Gaza strip. And for what? A few thousand migrant worker jobs? A few thousand janitor positions? A few thousand road construction jobs? A few thousand meat packing plant jobs? A few thousand hotel maid jobs? Jobs that white people would rather die than take?

Take down the Statue of Liberty. She is a reminder of our former unselfishness and generous humanitarian spirit. It is long gone and in its wake we plan to build a monument to fear and greed...a 370 mile fence...a militarized zone...to keep out the brown people who will work hard and long for very little pay and no benefits.

And yet many of us will be forced to retire to Mexico because we won't be able to live in the USA on our savings after social security is bankrupt. What a great hypocricy we live.
Damn right!! Give it back to France, they deserve it much more than we do!

Actually, my goat is irritated by your rash assumptions. My only objection to government education is that it's no longer an institution for learning, but for social experimentation.
Too true, too true. It attempts to use school as a "Bush Youth" program, for lack of a better name. ("America's Youth"?) The republican majority is slowly whittling away at the original intent of the founders of the US (not that I like them anyway, Im anti-government) and is attempting to create a fascism (I can never understand why they can't just admit they're fascists, I mean they value the exact same things for chrissake!).

Whoops. The hindu/muslim thing.

I say Pitcarin Island!
Ah! damn it! Ghandi has to cancle some of that out! :D

Maybe Vatican City...

Damn right!! Give it back to France, they deserve it much more than we do!

Oh I don't know. How many people died in the Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars?

The Statue of Liberty is a painful reminder of the welcoming place the USA once was and is no more.

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." What an embarassment those words are now.

The Mahoneys, Jorgensen's, Cartier's and Holmes's have decided to slam the gate less than 200 years after their own immigration to the United States because a bunch of poor brown people want in. And what did their own ancestor's immigrate with? The shirts on their backs, more or less. But don't expect the middle class great-grandchildren of economical refuges to understand what a chance their ancestor's took to give them that life. The thought that they could have been born in Budapest and be on the public dole right now never occurs to them. And it was only the chance of birth that allowed them to be born in the USA at all.

But now they want to put up a wall, like the one that they were so happy to take credit for taking down in Berlin. Like the one the Israelis built along the Gaza strip. And for what? A few thousand migrant worker jobs? A few thousand janitor positions? A few thousand road construction jobs? A few thousand meat packing plant jobs? A few thousand hotel maid jobs? Jobs that white people would rather die than take?

Take down the Statue of Liberty. She is a reminder of our former unselfishness and generous humanitarian spirit. It is long gone and in its wake we plan to build a monument to fear and greed...a 370 mile fence...a militarized zone...to keep out the brown people who will work hard and long for very little pay and no benefits.

And yet many of us will be forced to retire to Mexico because we won't be able to live in the USA on our savings after social security is bankrupt. What a great hypocricy we live.
You know ... one of the reasons you were never placed on my "ignore list" is because I never truly considered you stupid. A bit nieve, yes, but not stupid. This thread has removed that particular obstacle.

You know ... one of the reasons you were never placed on my "ignore list" is because I never truly considered you stupid. A bit nieve, yes, but not stupid. This thread has removed that particular obstacle.
Hey, don't say bad things about my government school educated buddy. Once he figures out where the library is and reads a few of those books about how immigration was not the picnic that his teachers have led him to believe it was, he'll be on the right track again.

We're not against immigrants, we're against illegal immigrants who:
-depress wages
-take jobs
-come or stay illegally
-are never checked for disease
-are never evaluated to see if they will become a burden on the government or people

IT's an insult to my family who paid shitloads of cash, waited in line for days and still weren't guaranteed entry.

You know ... one of the reasons you were never placed on my "ignore list" is because I never truly considered you stupid. A bit nieve, yes, but not stupid. This thread has removed that particular obstacle.

Hey, don't say bad things about my government school educated buddy. Once he figures out where the library is and reads a few of those books about how immigration was not the picnic that his teachers have led him to believe it was, he'll be on the right track again.

Translation:

OMG UR 2 STUIPD

i no lololz

Congratulations! You have won the prestigious "I have no fucking idea what I'm talking about" award for May 19th!

Where do you get these ideas? Is this what they teach in parochial school? LOL <snort!> LOL
There was a thread a little while back about a group of parents suing a school because their children failed their exit exams and weren't going to be able to graduate.
The parents contended that the children should graduate anyway.

I think CthulhuFhtagn just stole that award from DesignatedMarksman.

Where do you get these ideas? Is this what they teach in parochial school? LOL <snort!> LOL

Watching the public school circus.

Left when I was in 5th grade and never looked back. Been homeschooled ever since.

And graduated in 04, so I'm not THAT old.

And plant it in some poor country. They could do with some extra tourism. Now, how would we transport it?

Now, how would we transport it?

Hire illegal immigrants, duh.

I wonder if it wouldn't be more cost effective in the long run to charter passenger liners to transport all desiring immigrants to all those benevolent nations that think the US is too harsh and bigoted. How about spreading all that wealth of diversity and economic stimulus around the world?

I wonder if it wouldn't be more cost effective in the long run to charter passenger liners to transport all desiring immigrants to all those benevolent nations that think the US is too harsh and bigoted. How about spreading all that wealth of diversity and economic stimulus around the world?
I think this is a brilliant idea. Bet their opinions on the matter would change rapidly when they start feeling some of the burden.

I think this is a brilliant idea. Bet their opinions on the matter would change rapidly when they start feeling some of the burden.

Agreed.

Agreed.
except the term "desiring" I say when we pick em up, we deport them to one of those countries randomly drawn from a hat.

The thing is, even back when ellis island was used, people still went through the proper channels to get into the country. All those people standing there just having to do those few things to get in? That was the process then, just as there is a process now.

Oh, yes, there is "a process" now. But it's not just standing around "doing those few things." And I'd wager the costs have gone up, as have the waiting times. And I rather doubt anyone at Ellis Island were paying fees to the Department of Homeland Security.

The mexican border is the most logical location to come in to as well, its a boat ride to mexico then a drive/walk into america if you know the right back roads.

Actually, the much longer Canadian border is more logical. Much more open country on both sides.

Actually, the much longer Canadian border is more logical. Much more open country on both sides.
except majority of the Illegals are coming from the south... won't make much sense to take the extremely long route.

The Statue of Liberty is a painful reminder of the welcoming place the USA once was and is no more.

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." What an embarassment those words are now.

The Mahoneys, Jorgensen's, Cartier's and Holmes's have decided to slam the gate less than 200 years after their own immigration to the United States because a bunch of poor brown people want in. And what did their own ancestor's immigrate with? The shirts on their backs, more or less. But don't expect the middle class great-grandchildren of economical refuges to understand what a chance their ancestor's took to give them that life. The thought that they could have been born in Budapest and be on the public dole right now never occurs to them. And it was only the chance of birth that allowed them to be born in the USA at all.

But now they want to put up a wall, like the one that they were so happy to take credit for taking down in Berlin. Like the one the Israelis built along the Gaza strip. And for what? A few thousand migrant worker jobs? A few thousand janitor positions? A few thousand road construction jobs? A few thousand meat packing plant jobs? A few thousand hotel maid jobs? Jobs that white people would rather die than take?

Take down the Statue of Liberty. She is a reminder of our former unselfishness and generous humanitarian spirit. It is long gone and in its wake we plan to build a monument to fear and greed...a 370 mile fence...a militarized zone...to keep out the brown people who will work hard and long for very little pay and no benefits.

And yet many of us will be forced to retire to Mexico because we won't be able to live in the USA on our savings after social security is bankrupt. What a great hypocricy we live.
Maybe it was Cuba. Castro's translater: " 'give us your pychos, sex offenders, murders, creeps, and sickos.' " That was from a time when immigrants WORKED. I have NOTHING against immigrants so long as they A: don't need welfare (Californian gives 57 million dollars a month to 100,000 children of illegal immigrants in L.A. ALONE!). B: Learn about our history, and pledge loyalty to America (yes our nation, GOD BLEES AMERICA!). C: Learn ENGLISH. D: Don't criticize our nation and races in favor of their own. And E: Don't mind critizism of their OLD nation.

Enough said, I think.

except majority of the Illegals are coming from the south... won't make much sense to take the extremely long route.

I was talking about these mysterious terrorists who apparently can only get into the country through illegal immigration. The Mexican border is much smaller and thus provides fewer opportunities for a clean entry.

And you don't need to capitalize Illegals. In fact, you may as well go the extra mile and say illegal immigrant. It makes you look less like you're trying to dehumanize people.

I was talking about these mysterious terrorists who apparently can only get into the country through illegal immigration. The Mexican border is much smaller and thus provides fewer opportunities for a clean entry.

And you don't need to capitalize Illegals. In fact, you may as well go the extra mile and say illegal immigrant. It makes you look less like you're trying to dehumanize people.
I don't wanna say Aliens... because well, they are humans.

IA?

II?

I'll stick with Illegals cus that's what they are, Illegal Aliens/Illegal Immigrants covers both terms perfectly.

Maybe it was Cuba. Castro's translater: " 'give us your pychos, sex offenders, murders, creeps, and sickos.' " That was from a time when immigrants WORKED. I have NOTHING against immigrants so long as they A: don't need welfare (Californian gives 57 million dollars a month to 100,000 children of illegal immigrants in L.A. ALONE!).

If so, California can afford it. California's economy is like the 9th largest in the world. California pays more in taxes than it receives in services.

B: Learn about our history, and pledge loyalty to America (yes our nation, GOD BLEES AMERICA!).

Why do that when no one else does? Practically every other person you meet doesn't know basic history. And I've never pledged loyalty to America, are you gonna throw me out?

C: Learn ENGLISH. D: Don't critisize our nation and races in favor of their own.

I think you meant "criticize."

As for being allowed to criticize the nation, why not? Freedom of fucking speech, ya fucking fascist.

And E: Don't mind critizism of their OLD nation.

Oh I see. It's only acceptable to criticize some other nation, not America. Good nationalistic double standard.


Enough said, I think.

I think so too.

If so, California can afford it. California's economy is like the 9th largest in the world. California pays more in taxes than it receives in services
You gotta be KIDDING ME!!!! California is in HUGE debt!!!! And why should tax-payers pay for lazy idiots?

If so, California can afford it. California's economy is like the 9th largest in the world. California pays more in taxes than it receives in services.

Yes, and I can afford an incredible number of tongs. I don't want to buy tongs. I don't want someone sending me tongs, and forcing me to pay for them, even if I can afford them.

Not a great analogy, but my point gets across. California does indeed pay more than it recieves. However, I would much rather not have to pay for immigrants, and have cash going to our horridly funded education system, etc.

If so, California can afford it. California's economy is like the 9th largest in the world. California pays more in taxes than it receives in services. sorry I laugh when I hear this and remember all the brown outs and power failures they were having, the highest taxes on motor vehicles and other Luxuries. also the fact that the Govenor was fired by the people of Californa. so if their Economy is now the 9th largest in the world. it's probably due to the Govenor they got now.

Why do that when no one else does? Practically every other person you meet doesn't know basic history. And I've never pledged loyalty to America, are you gonna throw me out? realize that this can be a calling to bring back saying the pledge of Allegience. (which I think is still being done at the Naturalizing Cerimonies)

I think you meant "criticize."

As for being allowed to criticize the nation, why not? Freedom of fucking speech, ya fucking fascist.



Oh I see. It's only acceptable to criticize some other nation, not America. Good nationalistic double standard.agree with you on this one.

As for being allowed to criticize the nation, why not? Freedom of ****ing speech, ya ****ing fascist. I do beleive in freedom of speech, I attack this nations decisions ALL THE TIME. But the nation itself, that is stupid if you live in it...and those stupido Mexican flags on their car...and that stupido "la raca" protest...Mexicans...THE race? And you called ME facist...

Yes, and I can afford an incredible number of tongs. I don't want to buy tongs. I don't want someone sending me tongs, and forcing me to pay for them, even if I can afford them.

Not a great analogy, but my point gets across. California does indeed pay more than it recieves. However, I would much rather not have to pay for immigrants, and have cash going to our horridly funded education system, etc.

Well, if taxation worked like our tong-buying allowance did, then maybe everyone could simply fill in what they wanted and we'd all be better off.

But I'm not arguing for or against welfare, I'm simply saying that saying the state can't afford it isn't a valid argument.

Personally, I see all taxes as theft anyway, and I'd rather not pay them, and then I'd be "an illegal" who violates the sacred and 100% decent state of bureacracy of our fine government.

Well, if taxation worked like our tong-buying allowance did, then maybe everyone could simply fill in what they wanted and we'd all be better off.

But I'm not arguing for or against welfare, I'm simply saying that saying the state can't afford it isn't a valid argument.

Personally, I see all taxes as theft anyway, and I'd rather not pay them, and then I'd be "an illegal" who violates the sacred and 100% decent state of bureacracy of our fine government.it is a valid argument if the state really cannot afford it.

because if you force such a burden on any state, to compensate, they will have to raise taxes or cut services.

and doing either isn't good for the state.

sorry I laugh when I hear this and remember all the brown outs and power failures they were having, the highest taxes on motor vehicles and other Luxuries. also the fact that the Govenor was fired by the people of Californa. so if their Economy is now the 9th largest in the world. it's probably due to the Govenor they got now.

No, the Californian economy has pretty much always kicked ass and it's not due to some elected pinhole. It's due to the hardworking and successful people!

The brownouts and power failures... well, I live here and I don't remember one brownout or power failure during that time. It was a hyped media bullshit 'story' relating to the sad state of energy mismanagement. That has really little bearing on how wealthy the state is.

As for taxes on motor vehicles... I'd guess we have more of them, and use them more often, than most other states. It makes sense, though again I'm not a fan of taxes (who really is?)

I do beleive in freedom of speech, I attack this nations decisions ALL THE TIME. But the nation itself, that is stupid if you live in it...

You said they shouldn't be allowed to criticize the nation.

So you don't seem to believe in freedom of speech.

and those stupido Mexican flags on their car...and that stupido "la raca" protest...Mexicans...THE race? And you called ME facist...

You're just looking like an idiot now. Stop typing at me.

No, the Californian economy has pretty much always kicked ass and it's not due to some elected pinhole. It's due to the hardworking and successful people!

The brownouts and power failures... well, I live here and I don't remember one brownout or power failure during that time. It was a hyped media bullshit 'story' relating to the sad state of energy mismanagement. That has really little bearing on how wealthy the state is. geee... so the power outtages that my cousins were living through was orchistrated by the media? Man they have way too much power.

and while I agree that the hardworking people (successful and otherwise) help the economy, it's also their Government that manages the states revenue which is primarily baised on the taxes of the people.... so where's the money going if not to the Infrastructure?

As for taxes on motor vehicles... I'd guess we have more of them, and use them more often, than most other states. It makes sense, though again I'm not a fan of taxes (who really is?)more cars more often is a valid reason? and not enough money isn't a valid reason?

funny, I also recall the situation being so bad that one of the first things the new govenor had to do was negotiate a trade agreement with the Indian Tribes Living in California.

You're just looking like an idiot now. Stop typing at me.he's not typing AT you, he's typing NEAR you. :D

The Statue of Liberty is a painful reminder of the welcoming place the USA once was and is no more.

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." What an embarassment those words are now.

The Mahoneys, Jorgensen's, Cartier's and Holmes's have decided to slam the gate less than 200 years after their own immigration to the United States because a bunch of poor brown people want in. And what did their own ancestor's immigrate with? The shirts on their backs, more or less. But don't expect the middle class great-grandchildren of economical refuges to understand what a chance their ancestor's took to give them that life. The thought that they could have been born in Budapest and be on the public dole right now never occurs to them. And it was only the chance of birth that allowed them to be born in the USA at all.

But now they want to put up a wall, like the one that they were so happy to take credit for taking down in Berlin. Like the one the Israelis built along the Gaza strip. And for what? A few thousand migrant worker jobs? A few thousand janitor positions? A few thousand road construction jobs? A few thousand meat packing plant jobs? A few thousand hotel maid jobs? Jobs that white people would rather die than take?

Take down the Statue of Liberty. She is a reminder of our former unselfishness and generous humanitarian spirit. It is long gone and in its wake we plan to build a monument to fear and greed...a 370 mile fence...a militarized zone...to keep out the brown people who will work hard and long for very little pay and no benefits.

And yet many of us will be forced to retire to Mexico because we won't be able to live in the USA on our savings after social security is bankrupt. What a great hypocricy we live.

The only hypocrit I see is the one that won't recognize that those who came through Ellis Island did so honorably. Comparing illegals today to the honor of Lady Liberty and what it means is pure tripe.

You mean how during most of the waves of immigration the US didn't require passports or visas and how all the immigrant had to have was someone to vouch for him or her? Or how the tests to keep those out (coming from Europe, those of Asian decent faced quotas if not outright blockades) consisted of looking to see if someone had the plague or was insane? How about the the literacy test was conducted in the person's native lanaguge in the country of birth?

Or the wait at Elis was hours, maybe a few days, as opposed to years? How the border was open and anyone could and did walk across at will?

Fact check yourself.

Perhaps how the immigrants of that era held their heads up and wanted to be Americans, instead of slithering through the desert and hiding among the population?

Well, if taxation worked like our tong-buying allowance did, then maybe everyone could simply fill in what they wanted and we'd all be better off.

But I'm not arguing for or against welfare, I'm simply saying that saying the state can't afford it isn't a valid argument.

Personally, I see all taxes as theft anyway, and I'd rather not pay them, and then I'd be "an illegal" who violates the sacred and 100% decent state of bureacracy of our fine government.

The state can afford it; but its an expense I personally don't agree with. Why should people come here, just to make me pay more because they decided to hop a border illegally?

I'm quite for taxes, and even socialism if done in a certain way, but I don't want to have to pay for people who come here without permission, without paying money for taxes because they aren't citizens, etc.

I was wondering...
How many canons could we make of the statue?

.



I do not think there is a EU country who's president actualy got less votes than his opponent at the elections*cough-Bush-cough* (in 2000 obviously). You are living in a country where a man wins 19 million votes but gets zero electoral collage votes. Hmm yea, I envy your repesentation.


Huh? Youve been fed a load of crap by someone. Who got no electoral college votes and 19 million popular votes?

2000 Electoral college results

George Walker Bush
Electoral Votes: 271
Pop. Vote: 50,461,092 (47.9%)

Albert Arnold Gore, Jr.
Electoral Votes: 266
Pop. Vote: 50,994,086 (48.4%)

Ralph Nader
Electoral Votes: 0
Pop. Vote: 2,882,728 (2.7%)


2004 results

Bush
Pop Vote: 62,040,606 (51%)
Electoral Vote: 286

Kerry
Pop Vote:59,028,109 48%
Electral Vote:252

Nader
Pop Vote: 411,304 (1%)
electoral Vote:0

Huh? Youve been fed a load of crap by someone. Who got no electoral college votes and 19 million popular votes?

2000 Electoral college results

George Walker Bush
Electoral Votes: 271
Pop. Vote: 50,461,092 (47.9%)

Albert Arnold Gore, Jr.
Electoral Votes: 266
Pop. Vote: 50,994,086 (48.4%)

Ralph Nader
Electoral Votes: 0
Pop. Vote: 2,882,728 (2.7%)


2004 results

Bush
Pop Vote: 62,040,606 (51%)
Electoral Vote: 286

Kerry
Pop Vote:59,028,109 48%
Electral Vote:252

Nader
Pop Vote: 411,304 (1%)
electoral Vote:0

S/he might be meaning the take all system; Someone getting say 19m votes in a state or a few states, and getting no electoral votes from those states.

Wow, I've run across some very interesting arguments in this thread. A great deal of them make valid and strong points. I think what people need to understand is that there should be a balance between security and freedom. I don't know about you, but I would much rather not have to spend my hard earned money to support anyone leeching off of society. Also, I sure as heck don't want to be infected with some horrible viral agent that makes me throw up my intestines and causes my skin to melt. At the same time, if I were someone who wanted to immigrate to this country, I would certainly like to have a fair shot at it, and would be willing to at least learn enough English to get by. Those who chose to come to America illegally may work hard for their families, and I respect that. However, to do so without paying the taxes which support the schools that teach your children, the police that keep the streets safe, or the hospitals that keep you well is downright despicable. I don't believe in free rides for anyone, with the exception of those who are physically and/or mentally incapable. I listened to President Bush's address, and even though I may not hold the highest regard for the man, I have to say that he made a pretty dang good proposal for immigration reform. I know people are gonna rip me apart for saying this, but, guess what? I don't care. If you can post what you want to say on here, then I can do the same. So, basically, I'm all for tightened borders, but don't shut them down or make the legal process impossible either. These two ideas are not incompatible, we just have to employ people with enough brain cells to make it work.

You know it says homeless, the reason why their homeless is because the idiots sold everything they owned to trust some Criminal to help sneak them across the border!

One thing we need to do is lay the smackdown on the Smugglers.
No Smugglers= Less illegal Immigration.

The immigrants today don't come for freedom, they come for handouts, free money, and social welfare. A far cry from the immigrants of the time you are thinking of.

No, it ISN'T wrong to have fenced borders. Fenced borders make men more honest.

Ever ask one?

There was an actual interview from a 'Hidden' from view immigrant that basicly said that she was there for the welfare and free schools.

(1) Most European Union Nations now have the European Human rights act. IIRC the only 'right' that is not included in the act that is in your constitution is the right to bear arms. We, the European Nations can take any human rights abuses to the European Courts and get any offending law overturned. So just pick an EU member state because any has the potential to have as many civil liberties as the USA.

(2) Wow your economic freedom. The freedom for major corporations such as Wal-Mart and Macdonalds to outcompete and shut down smaller independant buisness. Great, I really envy you.

(2b) Political freedom? What do you think we are over here? All living under Monarchs or despot dictators? We all have Parliaments, most European countrys have not banned the Communist Party, unlike you (IIRC). Lets see, what else. Oh yes, I do not think there is a EU country who's president actualy got less votes than his opponent at the elections. *cough-Bush-cough* (in 2000 obviously). You are living in a country where a man wins 19 million votes but gets zero electoral collage votes. Hmm yea, I envy your repesentation.

Most do not have the rediculous over-representation that is presented by your 2 senators per state system (Meaning that states with a couple of million people send 2 senators to the senate and so do states with 30 million people). That isn't representation.

(3)Most European countries have just as diverse populations as you do. Most of the people I know have foreign ancestry somewhere down the line. Be it Russian, Jamaican, African, Japanese, Chinese, Afgani, Danish, Argentinian, Irish, Italian. Hell, in Britain where I live at the moment there are immigrants from everywhere. Infact, Britain now has the highest Immigration rate in Europe.
(Most of us had abolished slavery before 1863 too ;) .)



1) I'm a guy
2) Sorry no. I was born in Ireland.


Don't worry, I'm not going to dissect all the faults in your argument and take everything out of context before answering; no, I'm going to answer your entire post as a whole, although it is quite tempting. Allright, so the arguments you made seem intelligent and make you seem like you know a thing or two. But look more closely, and you'll realize that what seems and what really is are entirely different. The most striking is the fact that you could not answer the question I asked, which was to name a SINGLE country that possessed more economic freedom AND political freedom AND civil liberties AND a more diverse population. Besides not naming any single country whatever, you answered each argument on its own--ignoring the original question--and thought that would suffice for an answer. The point of all this is, to say America never deserved a statue of Liberty based on its injustices in the past does not mean that it is not still the only nation in the world to represent, for a greater period of time than any other nation, the tenets that laid the foundation for your human rights courts and your Parliaments. Which brings me to my next point. Yes, European nations have Parliaments, and yes, states are represented by two senators in the SENATE (but, if you knew anything about government, you would realize that we also have a HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES that REPRESENTS a state according to its population), but it is really kind of interesting how people automatically equate political freedom with national government. On a national scale, you must realize that our government has enacted certain policies, such as the electoral college, to account for some of what may be an uneducated decision by an enomormous populace (this is debatable). However, that is not necessarily where America earns its title as the "beacon of democracy." No, America's democracy lies in its states, in its cities, in its towns and counties and in its people--nowhere else in the world can the people elect directly their representatives in so many different areas, from police chiefs to county coroners to the city treasurer, this is where America is and this is American democracy and this is its political freedom.

Well, because without migration control, you might as well just merge with Mexico. You know that Mexico has a lot of problems, right? That's why people want to leave. And just letting in waves of people will just bring Mexican problems to the US. It's like paying off a credit card with another credit card.

So the statue of liberty which enshrined a home to the oppressed and poor stands for...keeping them out?

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." What an embarassment those words are now.

Right, and almost all those ancestors you described who came past the Statue of Liberty and entered Ellis Island were doing so LEGALLY!

No, the Californian economy has pretty much always kicked ass and it's not due to some elected pinhole. It's due to the hardworking and successful people!

The brownouts and power failures... well, I live here and I don't remember one brownout or power failure during that time. It was a hyped media bullshit 'story' relating to the sad state of energy mismanagement. That has really little bearing on how wealthy the state is.

As for taxes on motor vehicles... I'd guess we have more of them, and use them more often, than most other states. It makes sense, though again I'm not a fan of taxes (who really is?)

If I remember correctly, the vehicle taxes are that bad because of the stupid property tax law california has. Not 100% sure thouugh.

So the statue of liberty which enshrined a home to the oppressed and poor stands for...keeping them out?
nope, those who knock and use the door properly can come in and stay. those who try to sneak in and get around the immigration system cannot.

(2b) Political freedom? What do you think we are over here? All living under Monarchs or despot dictators? We all have Parliaments, most European countrys have not banned the Communist Party, unlike you (IIRC). Lets see, what else. Oh yes, I do not think there is a EU country who's president actualy got less votes than his opponent at the elections. *cough-Bush-cough* (in 2000 obviously). You are living in a country where a man wins 19 million votes but gets zero electoral collage votes. Hmm yea, I envy your repesentation.


Communist Party banned when? http://www.cpusa.org/

:rolleyes:

Huh? Youve been fed a load of crap by someone. Who got no electoral college votes and 19 million popular votes?

Sorry my bad there. I should of made it a seperate point to the 2000 election one. As evidently it was somewhat confusing. My point was about the 1992 elections...

1992 Election results

William Clinton - Democrat - 44 909 806 votes - 47% of vote - 370 ECV.

George Bush - Republican - 39 104 550 votes - 37.4% of vote - 168 ECV

Henry Ross Perot - Independant - 19 743 821 votes - 18.9% of vote - 0 ECV

-------------


Don't worry, I'm not going to dissect all the faults in your argument and take everything out of context before answering; no, I'm going to answer your entire post as a whole, although it is quite tempting. Allright, so the arguments you made seem intelligent and make you seem like you know a thing or two. But look more closely, and you'll realize that what seems and what really is are entirely different. The most striking is the fact that you could not answer the question I asked, which was to name a SINGLE country that possessed more economic freedom AND political freedom AND civil liberties AND a more diverse population.

Ok. Britain. There you go. Right I will pick out the problems in my arguement so I can counter them before you pick them out.

1) The monarch is not elected. Well no admitedly she is not. However the queen has no power exept to stop any politician taking over the courts, the army or making themself president. So is a constitutional safeguard. Much like your Constitution itself. So basicaly the queen has no power exept to stop someone becoming a dictator. (It could be said that the queen is our living Constitution)

2) The House of Lords. Yes again, admitedly this is undemocratic as the Life peers are unelected. (Hereditory peers ARE elected to sit in the House of Lords however only by other peers). The counter arguements here are that the lords will soon be a fully elected house as reforms are promised by both major parties. Secondly that even though they are not elected they represent the population more than say your Senate. (Hell there are more active black peers in the House of Lords than there are in the Senate).

3) We have some restrictions on our civil Liberties. Well yes we do. but only really on the Right to Bare Arms (Which was never a right for us anyway. Though just as a point I am pro gun). But you have restrictions on your civil liberties too The Patriot Act and Guantanamo Bay?



Besides not naming any single country whatever, you answered each argument on its own--ignoring the original question--and thought that would suffice for an answer. The point of all this is, to say America never deserved a statue of Liberty based on its injustices in the past does not mean that it is not still the only nation in the world to represent, for a greater period of time than any other nation, the tenets that laid the foundation for your human rights courts and your Parliaments.


I am not sure what you are saying there. Are you saying that you had an elected parliament before us? Are you saying that our rights are based on your bill of rights? (which would be odd seeing as several of the points in your bill of rights were based on the English bill of rights) and not based on the views of thinkers from our own countries in the same times?

Yes I realise I have only answered half your arguement but I have to go out for a while.

The Statue of Liberty is a painful reminder of the welcoming place the USA once was and is no more.

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." What an embarassment those words are now.

The Mahoneys, Jorgensen's, Cartier's and Holmes's have decided to slam the gate less than 200 years after their own immigration to the United States because a bunch of poor brown people want in. And what did their own ancestor's immigrate with? The shirts on their backs, more or less. But don't expect the middle class great-grandchildren of economical refuges to understand what a chance their ancestor's took to give them that life. The thought that they could have been born in Budapest and be on the public dole right now never occurs to them. And it was only the chance of birth that allowed them to be born in the USA at all.

But now they want to put up a wall, like the one that they were so happy to take credit for taking down in Berlin. Like the one the Israelis built along the Gaza strip. And for what? A few thousand migrant worker jobs? A few thousand janitor positions? A few thousand road construction jobs? A few thousand meat packing plant jobs? A few thousand hotel maid jobs? Jobs that white people would rather die than take?

Take down the Statue of Liberty. She is a reminder of our former unselfishness and generous humanitarian spirit. It is long gone and in its wake we plan to build a monument to fear and greed...a 370 mile fence...a militarized zone...to keep out the brown people who will work hard and long for very little pay and no benefits.

And yet many of us will be forced to retire to Mexico because we won't be able to live in the USA on our savings after social security is bankrupt. What a great hypocricy we live.


Our generous humanitarian spirit? Like when we lynched black people and raped their women? Or when we had a massive amount of slave labor and virtually liquidated the native american population? :p

Right, and almost all those ancestors you described who came past the Statue of Liberty and entered Ellis Island were doing so LEGALLY!

If the legal process wasn't such a long and frustrating business costing tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees and years of pro-activity, they would be doing it. How can a poor man go through such a process? It is designed to weed out the poor. Therefore, it is broken and unfair and the work-around of illegal entry is the only natural course.

I know these things. I am currently tring to get my brother-in-law citizen status. It is darn near impossible, even for a Dane with meansand a US born wife. Can you imagine what a poor brown man faces?

Our generous humanitarian spirit? Like when we lynched black people and raped their women? Or when we had a massive amount of slave labor and virtually liquidated the native american population? :p

Point well made. Glad you made it. I stand corrected.

If the legal process wasn't such a long and frustrating business costing tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees and years of pro-activity, they would be doing it. How can a poor man go through such a process? It is designed to weed out the poor. Therefore, it is broken and unfair and the work-around of illegal entry is the only natural course.

I know these things. I am currently tring to get my brother-in-law citizen status. It is darn near impossible, even for a Dane with meansand a US born wife. Can you imagine what a poor brown man faces?
so that makes it ok for citizens from a foreign country to decide to chudk those procedures and make their own means across?

Point well made. Glad you made it. I stand corrected.


There never was nor will there ever be a "good" government or nation.

Remember that.

so that makes it ok for citizens from a foreign country to decide to chudk those procedures and make their own means across?

Pretty much, yes. I know you love those "procedures," but if I can't afford something that I absolutely need, I'll get it under the table.

Pretty much, yes. I know you love those "procedures," but if I can't afford something that I absolutely need, I'll get it under the table.
and when you are caught getting it Illegally you will be punnished.

can't stand the long lines at the bank does not mean you can pull out a gun and hold up the teller. (even tho you insist the money be taken from your account.)

Tired of waiting to see the Doctor? you cannot just barge right through and interrupt someone elses examination.

don't like red lights. go ahead and run them. see and feel the consiquences.

like that cute boy? well, sorry, you gotta wait till he's of legal age. Don't wanna wait? then you take the consiquences of your actions.

if you don't like those laws? then get someone to change them, but you can't disreguard them.

can't stand the long lines at the bank does not mean you can pull out a gun and hold up the teller. (even tho you insist the money be taken from your account.)

False analogy. That's a violent crime effect, and the cause is "can't stand a long line." With illegal immigration, the effect is not violent, and the stimulus is can't afford to pay all the fees they demand.


Tired of waiting to see the Doctor? you cannot just barge right through and interrupt someone elses examination.

Another false analogy. The effect isn't interrupting anyone else, and the cause isn't simply "tired of waiting." These people will walk through a desert to get here, you think they do that just cuz they lack patience?


don't like red lights. go ahead and run them. see and feel the consiquences.


Yet another false analogy. Illegal immigrants don't come here illegally because they "don't like" the legal process. I mean you think they prefer risking death in the desert? Come on.


like that cute boy? well, sorry, you gotta wait till he's of legal age. Don't wanna wait? then you take the consiquences of your actions.

Sadly, another false analogy. Raping children is a violent crime and comparing it with illegal immigration seems to be just your way of trying to demonize illegal immigrants.


if you don't like those laws? then get someone to change them, but you can't disreguard them.

If you're looking to immigrate to America, you have absolutely no way of getting anyone to change those laws. Fuck, I live here and I'm a citizen, and I don't exactly have that magic wand either.

It's all nice and dandy to say, "just change the laws," except people like you won't help. You apparently enjoy the bureacratic red tape of government, and want more of it, and think anyone who doesn't is a child molestor.

You mean how during most of the waves of immigration the US didn't require passports or visas and how all the immigrant had to have was someone to vouch for him or her? Or how the tests to keep those out (coming from Europe, those of Asian decent faced quotas if not outright blockades) consisted of looking to see if someone had the plague or was insane? How about the the literacy test was conducted in the person's native lanaguge in the country of birth?

Or the wait at Elis was hours, maybe a few days, as opposed to years? How the border was open and anyone could and did walk across at will?

Fact check yourself.

Um, right. As third generation Italian, I can tell you my great grandparents needed passports, needed to have someone vouch for them and a job lined up, and ANY sign of disease -- pinkeye, whatever -- got you marked with a chalk 'X' and sent back so fast your head would spin.

I think you need to check your facts -- I've been to ELLIS Island and as I said, my family came through there.

No, we never deserved a statue of liberty. For over a century people from all over the world have sought to make their home in America, uprooting themselves from their lifestyles to make a new one in a new land for absolutely nothing. No, America has never represented, embodied, if you will, the dream and success of the individual, a triumph of the people and a testament to the strength of democracy. I won't deny that injustices were done to Native Americans and minorities in the past, but the fact remains that America, the United States of America, represents to millions of people the manifestation of liberty. Today, people look on America and say, "look at all the crime, look at all the injustice in the system, look at the corruption. Look at its history, covered in the blood of helpless innocents and how the voice of the many tramples the rights of the few." Yet name any other country, complete with all its faults, that affords its citizens more civil liberties, more economic freedom AND more political voice than the U.S. Furthermore, name any other country that attracts and possesses a more diverse group of peoples than America, and THEN we will question whether or not the "US deserved a Statue of Liberty."


If it sucks so much, why DOES everyone want in so badly?

If it sucks so much, why DOES everyone want in so badly?
Who doesn't have the dream of one day opening their very own 7-11?

The brownouts and power failures... well, I live here and I don't remember one brownout or power failure during that time. It was a hyped media bullshit 'story' relating to the sad state of energy mismanagement.

I do. Someone I dated was in Novato and would REGULARLY lose power, and for days at a time.

What this person doesn't understand is that all of those immigrants went through Ellis island to be processed and counted. The US doesn't have a perfect system now, but if they didn't have to worry about dangerous people crossing our border illegally, than we could fix the system. Don't blame the government for trying to safeguard its citizens. If some people, who are not its legal citizens, get screwed because they broke our law, too bad for them.

To the OP: When I had to come to America (from Eastern Europe), I had to get a Visa, which is a lengthy and time consuming process. All the Mexicans have to do is cross the border. They don't need any papers. So why shouldn't I have been able to come over here with nothing but a plane ticket and the clothes on my back?

It's not fair and I don't like it. Mexicans shouldn't get special treatment over everyone else just because they live near the US.

Dude111
I'm not being a smart ass, I truly am interested to know.
Why do people want to come live in the US?
Why do people want to be US citizens?
What is it that this country has that other democratic nations don't have that clinches it as THE choice?

Thank you.

To the OP: When I had to come to America (from Eastern Europe), I had to get a Visa, which is a lengthy and time consuming process. All the Mexicans have to do is cross the border. They don't need any papers. So why shouldn't I have been able to come over here with nothing but a plane ticket and the clothes on my back?

It's not fair and I don't like it. Mexicans shouldn't get special treatment over everyone else just because they live near the US.
What do you want us to do to stop them :sniper:?
We don't want them in the country either, I'm sorry that you feel sore about it, but don't say it's not fair just because they can get away with it. Maybe once they get amnesty, but not now.

Dude111
I'm not being a smart ass, I truly am interested to know.
Why do people want to come live in the US?
Why do people want to be US citizens?
What is it that this country has that other democratic nations don't have that clinches it as THE choice?

Thank you.
You're not being a smart ass. I'll gladly answer your questions.
I was 7 when I left my home country, but even then I comprehended my situation pretty well. I knew what it was like to be hungry, to be too cold, too hot, and worst of all, to have no reason to think that your situation will improve. America is a very wealthy nation, and I thought that over here, all my problems would end, and I would live out my life happily ever after, because to me it seemed like all Americans were wealthy. I was wrong. I still had problems, and my parents still had to sacrifice and work hard, but at least I had something to look forward to. A future. We were getting somewhere, and therein lies the glory of America: If you work hard, and follow the law, you will make a good living for yourself. America isn't a utopian paradise, but it truly is a land of opportunity. Ok, I got kind of carried away over there, but basically I wanted to move here so I wouldn't be hungry and so I could have a future, unlike in the country I was born in.

People want to be US citizens because it allows you to vote, which is very important, and even furthermore, citizenship means you're a part of American society, and you're officially an American.

People immigrate to other democratic countries, but in many cases they don't seem to be assimiliating very well. I can't say for sure why this is, but over here, we have no major problems with immigrants when it comes to crime, or drug use, like they do in Europe. I guess it's because America has a history of immigration, and it's part of our national character. That's the best answer I can give you.

You're welcome.

The only hypocrit I see is the one that won't recognize that those who came through Ellis Island did so honorably. Comparing illegals today to the honor of Lady Liberty and what it means is pure tripe.

Don't you mean menudo?:D

What do you want us to do to stop them :sniper:?
We don't want them in the country either, I'm sorry that you feel sore about it, but don't say it's not fair just because they can get away with it. Maybe once they get amnesty, but not now.
Look, all I'm saying is that if you want to keep the borders with Mexico completely open, like the OP, then you should let people from Ukraine, China, India, and every other country in the world immigrate to America without any restrictions at all. It's only fair, wouldn't you agree? I think the illegals that are already here should be given amnesty because it's irrational to deport 12 million people (or more), but illegal immigration must definetely be stopped.

What to do? I don't know, maybe build a wall or something. Or an electric fence.

Look, all I'm saying is that if you want to keep the borders with Mexico completely open, like the OP, then you should let people from Ukraine, China, India, and every other country in the world immigrate to America without any restrictions at all. It's only fair, wouldn't you agree? I think the illegals that are already here should be given amnesty because it's irrational to deport 12 million people (or more), but illegal immigration must definetely be stopped.

What to do? I don't know, maybe build a wall or something. Or an electric fence.
Now that would be interesting, an electric fence, hmm... well, what would we run it on? Oil would be too expensive, and the Rio Grande is too slow to really dam it. Oh well. The point of my last post was that we don't want them in the country anyway. Quotas aren't the best thing in the world, I agree, but if they didn't exist, we'd have people coming into our country in droves (in addition to the Hispanics), and that really wouldn't do anyone any good. Until the US invades Canada, there's nothing we can do about it.;)
P.S. The border isn't really open, we have a border patrol and a fence all along the sucker, they just keep getting around it.

Now that would be interesting, an electric fence, hmm... well, what would we run it on? Oil would be too expensive, and the Rio Grande is too slow to really dam it. Oh well. The point of my last post was that we don't want them in the country anyway. Quotas aren't the best thing in the world, I agree, but if they didn't exist, we'd have people coming into our country in droves (in addition to the Hispanics), and that really wouldn't do anyone any good. Until the US invades Canada, there's nothing we can do about it.;)
P.S. The border isn't really open, we have a border patrol and a fence all along the sucker, they just keep getting around it.
Well, I never claimed to have all the answers.:D

Sure this country has a high standard of living but think of it in the long run people.

If everyone came to America then overpopulation+shortages of supplies & resources= a shitty overpopulated third world America.

Then everyone would have to migrate OUT of America.

False analogy. That's a violent crime effect, and the cause is "can't stand a long line." With illegal immigration, the effect is not violent, and the stimulus is can't afford to pay all the fees they demand.proper analogy, it's time consuming and lengthy. after all those perspectives are relative. your solution of "getting it by other means" does not automatically mean legal.

there are laws against crossing borders illegally. thus the term "Illegal" immigrants. so to you anything non violent is Legal? like blackmail, invasion of privacy? breaking and entering, Most thefts are non violent. are they ok too?

Another false analogy. The effect isn't interrupting anyone else, and the cause isn't simply "tired of waiting." These people will walk through a desert to get here, you think they do that just cuz they lack patience?yes it is, it's taking resources that could go to those comming in legally. Ever think that those who took the time to stand in line would take those jobs that the Illegals are taking? and those coming in legally are showing respect for that nation's laws.

Yet another false analogy. Illegal immigrants don't come here illegally because they "don't like" the legal process. I mean you think they prefer risking death in the desert? Come on.they why don't they use the Legal Process? costs? don't think so. too cumbersome? not a reason to break the law. they don't want to use the proper process? that's a good reason to you right?

Sadly, another false analogy. Raping children is a violent crime and comparing it with illegal immigration seems to be just your way of trying to demonize illegal immigrants.the example isn't about raping children but enduring a lengthy process (aging) to get what you want.



If you're looking to immigrate to America, you have absolutely no way of getting anyone to change those laws. Fuck, I live here and I'm a citizen, and I don't exactly have that magic wand either. yes you do have a magic wand. it's called a pen. you can write to your representative and urge him to change the laws. they don't move to your satisfaction, then you use your other power, free speech, and your power to vote. guess what. they work. it's a slow process but it works.

It's all nice and dandy to say, "just change the laws," except people like you won't help. You apparently enjoy the bureacratic red tape of government, and want more of it, and think anyone who doesn't is a child molestor.People like me don't help? sorry but unlike you, I don't condone encouraging citizens to breaking the law just because I don't agree with that law. I am writing to my representative to change the immigration laws to make it easier for a friend of mine to stay here. but guess what. it's hard to fight for a lessing of the red tape when more people are sneaking in illegally. so in actuality, its those sneaking across the desert, hiding in trucks and doing what ever it take to come in outside the process that's keeping the process long and making it harder to legally come in.

so take a good long look in the mirror and you'll see the person who is actually keeping the red tape up and adding more to it.

Ok. Britain. There you go. Right I will pick out the problems in my arguement so I can counter them before you pick them out.

1) The monarch is not elected. Well no admitedly she is not. However the queen has no power exept to stop any politician taking over the courts, the army or making themself president. So is a constitutional safeguard. Much like your Constitution itself. So basicaly the queen has no power exept to stop someone becoming a dictator. (It could be said that the queen is our living Constitution)

2) The House of Lords. Yes again, admitedly this is undemocratic as the Life peers are unelected. (Hereditory peers ARE elected to sit in the House of Lords however only by other peers). The counter arguements here are that the lords will soon be a fully elected house as reforms are promised by both major parties. Secondly that even though they are not elected they represent the population more than say your Senate. (Hell there are more active black peers in the House of Lords than there are in the Senate).

3) We have some restrictions on our civil Liberties. Well yes we do. but only really on the Right to Bare Arms (Which was never a right for us anyway. Though just as a point I am pro gun). But you have restrictions on your civil liberties too The Patriot Act and Guantanamo Bay?

Allright, thanks for coming around! I appreciate the straightforward answer. Britain was the nation I was thinking of that would be the most compelling argument in this respect. Yes, I understand that the Queen is more of figurehead these days, and that you have established a constitutional monarchy that is more of a democracy/republic than anything else, and that is comparable to American political processes. On a national level, to say that a largely unelected body is more representative of the people is contrary to the entire basis of the idea of political freedom. Yes, they may represent the proportions of ethnicities, but in terms of political freedom this would require that the people elect the representatives, thereby making them representative of the population as a whole. Yes, I will not argue the fact that minorities could be considered under-represented in the Senate, but again, this reflects that Senators, as elected officials, represent the general population as a whole (of their respective states, of course). Finally, yes, our civil liberties may be considered to be restricted (ie Patriot Act), but for the vast majority of the populace, these are few and far between and are technically not being abridged. And it might be added that, to my knowledge, Britain has enacted similar (not identical) anti-terrorism measures which may be considered to abridge rights. I agree with You (being pro-gun) by the way, and the abuses at Guantanamo et al are definitely a stain on the idea of civil liberties in America, and it may be noted that it is being considered for closure.

I am not sure what you are saying there. Are you saying that you had an elected parliament before us? Are you saying that our rights are based on your bill of rights? (which would be odd seeing as several of the points in your bill of rights were based on the English bill of rights) and not based on the views of thinkers from our own countries in the same times?

Yes I realise I have only answered half your arguement but I have to go out for a while.

Great Britain had an elected governing body, but it was hardly representative (which was why the American colonies rebelled in the first place) and only after the American rebellion (technically, it wasn’t a revolution) and the establishment of the Constitution and Bill of Rights (which was based on the English Bill of Rights, granted, but together with the Constitution is the foundation of truly representative and politically free government) did Western nations (Great Britain included) begin to “open up” and become more representative. My point being, in my other post, that the United States has been the longest-running truly representative democracy in the world.

I must say you provide a well educated and well set out argument.

Though notably your point about America being the oldest representative democracy is somewhat flawed. Firstly technicaly (IIRC) Iceland is the worlds first democracy (I believe their parrliament is allmost 1000 years old).

Secondly Congress did not allow Women to vote untill 1920 (Though in national elections it was the same in Britain, though Women could vote in local elections from IIRC 1872) and many poor Blacks and poor whites were restricted from voting because they needed to take literacy tests up until the Voting Rights Act of 1965. (Which also stopped voting intimidation by groups such as the Ku Klux Klan.)
Notably also it is hard for young people to be truly represented in congress due to the 25 year old age limit in the House of Representatives and the 30 year old Age limit in the Senate. Britain would have been buggered if they had had the same laws because one of the great parliamentary leaders in the Napolionic wars was William Pitt the younger who was elected in his very early 20s (I think he was 22 or 23). But I also understand that your point is more about the electors rather than the elected.
While I am not denying your arguement is very good, it does have a couple of flaws and America has had to evolve into a truly representative democracy (albeit it managed it faster in most states) just like Britain and other countrys did.

You may have guessed I studied UK and US government and politics. :)

I will say that you are truly a good debator, as I have seen some very ignorant people from both America and Britain come onto forums like this and spout uneducated, illogical rubbish and then start insulting people as soon as someone says different. I will have the second half of my reply up soon, but its saved on word on my laptop.

proper analogy, it's time consuming and lengthy. after all those perspectives are relative. your solution of "getting it by other means" does not automatically mean legal.

Strawman. I don't claim that illegal immigration is legal.

But its NOT a proper analogy. You're comparing violent crime to illegal immigration in an effort to connect the two - tarring by association. Pretend you're not, but it's a cheap and rather commonly used tactic designed to reach an emotional instead of rational response.


there are laws against crossing borders illegally. thus the term "Illegal" immigrants. so to you anything non violent is Legal? like blackmail, invasion of privacy? breaking and entering, Most thefts are non violent. are they ok too?

Again, strawman. I never said that nonviolent crime is legal. Theft is a crime involving a victim, and, again, isn't valid when compared to illegal immigration, which doesn't have a victim.


yes it is, it's taking resources that could go to those comming in legally. Ever think that those who took the time to stand in line would take those jobs that the Illegals are taking? and those coming in legally are showing respect for that nation's laws.

How do you know that "Illegals" (not a capitalized word, by the way - now I think you're doing it just to piss me off) don't ever stand in line, that they never try to come in legally? You don't. You just assume they're too lazy, or that they just PREFER risking death in the desert because they feel like it. That's a rather stupid assumption on your part.


they why don't they use the Legal Process? costs? don't think so. too cumbersome? not a reason to break the law. they don't want to use the proper process? that's a good reason to you right?

Oh, you 'don't think so.' You can only imagine that illegal immigrants do it simply because they don't want to be "proper." The thousands of dollars shouldn't be a problem, you figure.

What a convincing argument. This part of our discussion is apparently over.


the example isn't about raping children but enduring a lengthy process (aging) to get what you want.


If what you "want" is sex with someone who is currently a child, your analogy IS about raping children: you're comparing illegal immigration with people who rape children because they didn't want to wait.

But illegal immigration isn't about fulfilling sexual desires; it's not about something as morally reprehensible as desire for a minor either. Quit trying to make your stupid analogies stick.


yes you do have a magic wand. it's called a pen. you can write to your representative and urge him to change the laws. they don't move to your satisfaction, then you use your other power, free speech, and your power to vote. guess what. they work. it's a slow process but it works.


Who says I don't? That's NOT a magic wand, in that people will die of poverty, malnourishment and corruption in Mexico (and other countries) while nothing happens. Why does nothing happen? Because people slam tougher, more lengthy, more costly border controls on.

In case you haven't noticed, this is an "issue" in this nation, and it's not a resolved issue either.


People like me don't help? sorry but unlike you, I don't condone encouraging citizens to breaking the law just because I don't agree with that law. I am writing to my representative to change the immigration laws to make it easier for a friend of mine to stay here. but guess what. it's hard to fight for a lessing of the red tape when more people are sneaking in illegally. so in actuality, its those sneaking across the desert, hiding in trucks and doing what ever it take to come in outside the process that's keeping the process long and making it harder to legally come in.

I don't see why it is hard to fight for less red tape just because there are illegal immigrants. From what I see, illegal immigration is a sign that we need LESS red tape.

And when it comes to breaking laws you don't agree with... well. You must live in idyllic Hawaii or something, where its possible to be squeaky clean and not violate a single law, ever, for any reason.

Here in the real world, things aren't as "proper" and simple.


so take a good long look in the mirror and you'll see the person who is actually keeping the red tape up and adding more to it.

Yeah. "I'm rubber and you're glue." That's all you're doing here. Not impressive.

so that makes it ok for citizens from a foreign country to decide to chudk those procedures and make their own means across?

If the system is designed with discrimination against the poor, then yes, it is OK to work around it. Anything that is unjust begs for a work-around.

Actually, my goat is irritated by your rash assumptions. My only objection to government education is that it's no longer an institution for learning, but for social experimentation.

I don't suppose you could back that rash assumption up with a few details, could you?

=)

Too true, too true. It attempts to use school as a "Bush Youth" program, for lack of a better name. ("America's Youth"?) The republican majority is slowly whittling away at the original intent of the founders of the US (not that I like them anyway, Im anti-government) and is attempting to create a fascism (I can never understand why they can't just admit they're fascists, I mean they value the exact same things for chrissake!).


Well, you might have a point there, Whithy. Since my own grade schools days I have found being forced to say the "Pledge of Allegiance" a bit fascist. What if I don't want to be a stallwart brain-washed neo-con? So I began standing, but neither holding my hand over my heart nor reciting the pledge about 40 years ago. I don't wish to be indoctrinated, thank you.

You know ... one of the reasons you were never placed on my "ignore list" is because I never truly considered you stupid. A bit nieve, yes, but not stupid. This thread has removed that particular obstacle.

How ironic that I wrote you letters of support on your wife gone wild issue on another thread. You can call me stupid Eut. I know the REAL score. =)

We're not against immigrants, we're against illegal immigrants who:
-depress wages
-take jobs
-come or stay illegally
-are never checked for disease
-are never evaluated to see if they will become a burden on the government or people

IT's an insult to my family who paid shitloads of cash, waited in line for days and still weren't guaranteed entry.

I just gotta ask....why did you family allow themselves to be duped like that? Surely someone had told them about the system and how the discrimination is built in and how the years of red tape and lawyers fees required to apply can bankrupt a family faster than having State Farm Insurance in a Hurricane?

There was a thread a little while back about a group of parents suing a school because their children failed their exit exams and weren't going to be able to graduate.
The parents contended that the children should graduate anyway.

I think CthulhuFhtagn just stole that award from DesignatedMarksman.

Thats what I would call an isolated incident. I went to highschool graduation today and watched my daughter's boyfriend graduate with a 4.0 and a full ride scholarship to college and in 5 years or so this country will have another fine chemical engine. My daughter is on the same track. At age 15, she has been a professional/published photographer for 2 years. Will she pursue fine arts or also go for engineering? She is undecided. My son is only in 5th grade but is making straight A's. He excels in music, math and spanish. (My husband and I are both state college degreed.) We all went or are currently attending <gasp> public schools for $35.00 a year. Can't beat that.

Now, church boy, how do you like them apples?

Watching the public school circus.

Left when I was in 5th grade and never looked back. Been homeschooled ever since.

And graduated in 04, so I'm not THAT old.

Say no more....LOL

We got a few local kids with emotional and behavioral problems that have had to do the same thing because they were unwilling to allow the other kids the opportunity for an education, what with their fighting and carrying on and all. They say they are home schooled, but they are really just drop outs.
Most of them in this category end up at Job Corps because their parents don't have enough education to home school.

So you got a job, home-school boy? I doubt if there is much available to a kid with an undocumented education. No wonder the idea of illegals taking all the trash jobs upsets you.

The Statue of Liberty is a painful reminder of the welcoming place the USA once was and is no more.

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." What an embarassment those words are now.

The Mahoneys, Jorgensen's, Cartier's and Holmes's have decided to slam the gate less than 200 years after their own immigration to the United States because a bunch of poor brown people want in. And what did their own ancestor's immigrate with? The shirts on their backs, more or less. But don't expect the middle class great-grandchildren of economical refuges to understand what a chance their ancestor's took to give them that life. The thought that they could have been born in Budapest and be on the public dole right now never occurs to them. And it was only the chance of birth that allowed them to be born in the USA at all.

But now they want to put up a wall, like the one that they were so happy to take credit for taking down in Berlin. Like the one the Israelis built along the Gaza strip. And for what? A few thousand migrant worker jobs? A few thousand janitor positions? A few thousand road construction jobs? A few thousand meat packing plant jobs? A few thousand hotel maid jobs? Jobs that white people would rather die than take?

Take down the Statue of Liberty. She is a reminder of our former unselfishness and generous humanitarian spirit. It is long gone and in its wake we plan to build a monument to fear and greed...a 370 mile fence...a militarized zone...to keep out the brown people who will work hard and long for very little pay and no benefits.

And yet many of us will be forced to retire to Mexico because we won't be able to live in the USA on our savings after social security is bankrupt. What a great hypocricy we live.

not to be rude..but what part of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION don't you understand?
america accepts a half million immigrants LEGALLY every year...

we also pay quite heavily for illegals medical care and other welfare...let alone the burden on crimminal justice.

screw you and your disdain for america,how dare we expect for people that come here obey our laws!

i hope ms-13 comes into your town and rapes and kills your friends and family,then jumps the border to escape punishment....

oh and take a look at mexico's immigration laws and treatment of illegal immigrants..lol...or does only america have to be held to your high standards?

your a snob and a fool to make an uninformed...rascist comment like you did.

and yes..rascist is exactly what you are...implying that americans dont want to be illegally invaded by "brown people"

my grandparents were brown..and legally immigrated here.....like i said...your rascist

So, basically, I'm all for tightened borders, but don't shut them down or make the legal process impossible either. These two ideas are not incompatible, we just have to employ people with enough brain cells to make it work.

And that is EXACTLY THE ISSUE. The immigration process IS impossible for all but the very wealthy with good connections. My family has been trying to get citizenship for my brother-in-law for over 2 years. Everytime you turn around its another $4000, another $5000, another form, refill this form, remail that form, now resend you taxes, now get all this re-notorized, now woops, we lost your file, start all over, now send your application fee...etc etc etc

Google "immigration costs and red tape". You will see what I mean.

There was an actual interview from a 'Hidden' from view immigrant that basicly said that she was there for the welfare and free schools.

I'm not really sure where else you would start if you had no money, no home, no car, only the clothes on your back. Where do you suggest she start?

...a poor brown man.. ?

Comments like this are condescending.

Haven't you ever seen that GEICO commercial?

Look, all I'm saying is that if you want to keep the borders with Mexico completely open, like the OP, then you should let people from Ukraine, China, India, and every other country in the world immigrate to America without any restrictions at all. It's only fair, wouldn't you agree? I think the illegals that are already here should be given amnesty because it's irrational to deport 12 million people (or more), but illegal immigration must definetely be stopped.

What to do? I don't know, maybe build a wall or something. Or an electric fence.

My position is one of open borders. That would include everyone. Because the mexican issue is coming to a head now, we speak of mexicans, but I wish everyone who can make it to our borders, to come into our borders, and what happens happens. Maybe someone will have 3 loaves and a fish.

If the legal process wasn't such a long and frustrating business costing tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees and years of pro-activity, they would be doing it. How can a poor man go through such a process? It is designed to weed out the poor. Therefore, it is broken and unfair and the work-around of illegal entry is the only natural course.

I know these things. I am currently tring to get my brother-in-law citizen status. It is darn near impossible, even for a Dane with meansand a US born wife. Can you imagine what a poor brown man faces?
And yet, these poor people manage to pay coyotes 5,000, 10,000, even 15,000 US dollars to get smuggled across the border.

I recently heard a report on NPR about an illegal Mexican immigrant woman. Her reason for coming? She could work 8 hours a day instead of 10 to 11 hours a day and have more time with her children. Not because she was starving.

My position is one of open borders. That would include everyone. Because the mexican issue is coming to a head now, we speak of mexicans, but I wish everyone who can make it to our borders, to come into our borders, and what happens happens. Maybe someone will have 3 loaves and a fish.

And let me add to this by saying, I am not afraid of terrorists. I am truly not. The world has never been without its terrorists (the Huns, the Spanish Inquisition, Al Queda) and never will be. Did the world end? No. And what if it did? Do you think a border patrol can keep the world from ending? What with all those fundementalist Christians praying so hard for it and all? LOL

And yet, these poor people manage to pay coyotes 5,000, 10,000, even 15,000 US dollars to get smuggled across the border.

I recently heard a report on NPR about an illegal Mexican immigrant woman. Her reason for coming? She could work 8 hours a day instead of 10 to 11 hours a day and have more time with her children. Not because she was starving.

A single mom who wants to spend more time with her children? Why are you against that???

False analogy. That's a violent crime effect, and the cause is "can't stand a long line." With illegal immigration, the effect is not violent, and the stimulus is can't afford to pay all the fees they demand.

Your argument sounds like an advocation for shoplifting. Maybe you do?



Another false analogy. The effect isn't interrupting anyone else, and the cause isn't simply "tired of waiting." These people will walk through a desert to get here, you think they do that just cuz they lack patience?

Yet another false analogy. Illegal immigrants don't come here illegally because they "don't like" the legal process. I mean you think they prefer risking death in the desert? Come on.

I think they think it is worth the risk if it's faster.



Sadly, another false analogy. Raping children is a violent crime and comparing it with illegal immigration seems to be just your way of trying to demonize illegal immigrants.

How violent is the crime of hauling a truckload across the border and abandoning the whole lot of them to die of hyperthermia locked in the back of the truck? If Illegals weren't willing to risk the consequences, there would be no profit for the coyotes. An example of crime feeding crime?



It's all nice and dandy to say, "just change the laws," except people like you won't help. You apparently enjoy the bureacratic red tape of government, and want more of it, and think anyone who doesn't is a child molestor.

Can you support this presumption with facts? Or are you just blowing hot air?

Didn't say I was against a Mom spending more time with her children. But I don't consider that a reason to risk life and limb to illegally cross into this country.

Many folks seem to believe that illegal immigrants are only coming here because of poverty - to feed their families. I pointed out that, in many instances, this is not the case.

And guess whose tax money will be used to pay for her and her son's medical care? And at quadruple or more the normal rate, because they will go to the emergency room, rather than a normal doctor, for fear of their illegal status.

A single mom who wants to spend more time with her children? Why are you against that???

That is a perfectly reasonable desire that I can support.
She still has to come in LEGALLY.

Read this article: http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=e68b93c9a0324fa858478928b5b08366

"The paralysis that has gripped the immigration system ... a report by the GAO (the investigative arm of Congress), ... showed that the backlog of applications pending before immigration authorities grew from 2.3 to 6.3 million in the last two years."

That effectively CLOSES the border to anyone who hasn't been effectively babysitting their application or has failed to apply. The border is NOT open to legal immigrants if the system is effectively SHUT DOWN.

"Immigration attorneys call it the "No" mentality: procedures take twice as long to process since the process came to a virtual halt, and applicants for visas, legal residency, work permits or citizenship are more likely to be rejected. Lines are growing longer by the minute, they say, even after Congress raised the fees on immigration processes and invested $160 million during the last two years to chip away at the backlog."

Would you, as a prospective immigrant pursuing a life in the United States,

1) continue to bang your head against the wall and throw cash at a no-win situation,

2) turn around and go home like a good boy, or

3) say, "Fuck that. I'm going in."?

Engaging Wait: Red tape could delay wedding
http://washdateline.mgnetwork.com/index.cfm?SiteID=wsh&PackageID=46&fuseaction=article.main&

Red Tape Causes Illegal Immigration
http://sayanythingblog.com/2005/10/02/red_tape_causes_illegal_immigration/

German Teen Caught In Immigration Red Tape (when legal guardian failed to process him through immigration as a toddler)
http://www.wcpo.com/news/2006/local/05/16/immigration_teen.html

"Beyond the political posturing on all sides about President Bush’s proposed immigration reform, the long lines and anguished waiting of would-be immigrants in the system shows that the process of granting documentation to newcomers has ground to a virtual halt."
http://www.laprensa-sandiego.org/archieve/january04-23/redtape.htm

Opening the Door
http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=1416410

Wikipedia: Free Migration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_migration

My position is one of open borders. That would include everyone. Because the mexican issue is coming to a head now, we speak of mexicans, but I wish everyone who can make it to our borders, to come into our borders, and what happens happens. Maybe someone will have 3 loaves and a fish.


How many people are you willing to board in your home? *takes out notepad* Can I put you down for three?

Your argument sounds like an advocation for shoplifting. Maybe you do?

No. Shoplifting is rather different from immigration. I'm sure you're a bright guy and can see not only the difference, but the fact that we're talking about immigration and not shopping.

I think they think it is worth the risk if it's faster.

Well, it probably is, given the alternative of starving to death in some shitsplat foreign country.

How violent is the crime of hauling a truckload across the border and abandoning the whole lot of them to die of hyperthermia locked in the back of the truck? If Illegals weren't willing to risk the consequences, there would be no profit for the coyotes. An example of crime feeding crime?

I'm pretty sure the kind of crime you just mentioned is not committed by illegal immigrants, but good ole American entrepeneurs. And I'm not sure how many are locked in the back of the truck to die.


Can you support this presumption with facts? Or are you just blowing hot air?

Which presumption? The one that people who are against illegal immigration tend to desire increased border security and controls? Look at this thread, look on this forum, make your own conclusion on that. Or the presumption that Juni was comparing illegal immigration to child molestation? Right in the text. So no, not really hot air.

In the past we let in people because we wanted them to work in our dangerous factories and live in our growing slums and ghettoes. Yeah lets go back to that. Lets just let in every person in the world who wants to come to this country. There are not that many people, only about a billion. We can handle them.

The bankrupting of this nation by the CEOs and politicians will bring this effect about even without the illegals.


Sure this country has a high standard of living but think of it in the long run people.

If everyone came to America then overpopulation+shortages of supplies & resources= a shitty overpopulated third world America.

Then everyone would have to migrate OUT of America.

How many people are you willing to board in your home? *takes out notepad* Can I put you down for three?

Sure. I will back that up. Put me down for 3 at a time. And I will help them find jobs and network into the community. Immigrants already know what a great place Kansas is to live. I am sure many more will find their way here and I welcome them!

They could just superimpose the words 'Mission Accomplished' over the original poem, and call it the Dubya Memorial.

Honestly now, what nation on earth doesnt have immigration laws? Even Mexico has stricter immigration laws than the US, and they're getting worse. No one is closing the door on Mexicans attempting to enter the US legally. The door is being closed on those attempting to break the law. There is a difference. The backlog at the Department of Naturalization and Immigration is NOT a reason to become an illegal and try to sneak into the US. Many times they'll pay a smuggler who not only traffics humans but narcotics as well most of the time, and if that isnt bad enough the illegals have created a business in phoney documents from immigration papers to social security documents.

The problem isnt with the US shutting the door on Mexico, its a problem with Mexico not focusing on its own economy in an attempt to stem the tide. They're rather content crying about how their illegals in the US should be given citizenship and how we should swing our doors wide open, but are quick to shut their own doors. Sorry, that doesnt garner my sympathy to their cause.

My position is one of open borders. That would include everyone. Because the mexican issue is coming to a head now, we speak of mexicans, but I wish everyone who can make it to our borders, to come into our borders, and what happens happens. Maybe someone will have 3 loaves and a fish.

Open borders? Whoever reaches our shores? You're kidding right? That statement alone proves you are either incredibly young and naive, or senile and old. That whatever happens happens is what allows people who dont like this country to sneak in and do bad things. Bad things that happen to thousands of people because of twisted holy preversions. Now I dont know about you, but if that means checking to see who's at the door before letting them in, then to hell with it. Let people wait 3-4 years unless its a serious emergency and they need assylum.

The problem isnt with the US shutting the door on Mexico, its a problem with Mexico not focusing on its own economy in an attempt to stem the tide. They're rather content crying about how their illegals in the US should be given citizenship and how we should swing our doors wide open, but are quick to shut their own doors. Sorry, that doesnt garner my sympathy to their cause.





The Mexican govt is quite happy with all the US dollars that illegals earn here in the US and send back to family members in Mexico. It money that apparently couldnt be earned in Mexico, but it can certainly be spent in Mexico.

Honestly now, what nation on earth doesnt have immigration laws?

I don't know. I would like to know. I will look it up and get back to you.

No one is closing the door on Mexicans attempting to enter the US legally. The door is being closed on those attempting to break the law. There is a difference. The backlog at the Department of Naturalization and Immigration is NOT a reason to become an illegal and try to sneak into the US.

Immigration is effectively halted right now with single digit percentages of applicants completing the process. I have supplied several links supporting that reality. But I don't think a well fed, housed, educated and employed person can even begin to relate to the desperation of those that have none of these things. Haven't you ever said, "Desperate times call for desperate measures?" And can you honestly say that you have never broken a law...never got a speeding ticket? Never lied on your taxes? Never peed in the bushes? So lets stop and reflect a moment before throwing stones.

Many times they'll pay a smuggler who not only traffics humans but narcotics as well most of the time, and if that isnt bad enough the illegals have created a business in phoney documents from immigration papers to social security documents.

I know. Some of the smugglers are criminals of the worst kind, effectively getting rich on the desperation of other humans. I rank them right up there with ambulance chasing lawyers, pharmaceutical companies and insurance adjusters. But the drug smuggling issue is a whole nuther issue, which if you like, we can start a new thread on. You will no doubt hate my stance on that too. =)

The problem isnt with the US shutting the door on Mexico, its a problem with Mexico not focusing on its own economy in an attempt to stem the tide. They're rather content crying about how their illegals in the US should be given citizenship and how we should swing our doors wide open, but are quick to shut their own doors. Sorry, that doesnt garner my sympathy to their cause.

Here we may be in agreement. I think the blame lies squarely on a long, tradition of mexican government officials getting their palms greased by criminals, corporate entities and land barons to look the other way while the middle and lower classes are getting raped. This is effectively held their country in poverty since its inception. The people (which should not be confused with the government) have lived with this system so long, they know no other way. It's very difficult to think about revolution when you are starving, and yet starvation is the best motivator there has ever been. I too, am waiting for the Mexican people to rise up and insist on integrity and social reform from their leaders. But if they are too unorganized and too weak to fight it, perhaps economic refuge feels like their only chance. I am sure every Mexican knows a story about some relative who was shot for trying to rebel against the government, local or federal.

Open borders? Whoever reaches our shores? You're kidding right? That statement alone proves you are either incredibly young and naive, or senile and old. That whatever happens happens is what allows people who dont like this country to sneak in and do bad things. Bad things that happen to thousands of people because of twisted holy preversions. Now I dont know about you, but if that means checking to see who's at the door before letting them in, then to hell with it. Let people wait 3-4 years unless its a serious emergency and they need assylum.

Something has to be done to allow the economics of the world to flow freely like the oceans and rivers. Borders not only stop people they stop money. When borders are open, money flows freely with the people. Eventually, like a dam opened on a river, the flood will subside and equalibrium will be reached. Sure, its painful when it happens. Things get wiped out. But once its over, there is peace.

All borders, not just this one, need to be open. Fear should not be a reason to keep them closed. If you are afraid of someone, they already have you where they want you. Displays of fear only encourage aggression. Any dog can tell you that.

Timothy McVeigh killed hundreds of people, including children. Only a tight border between Kansas and Oklahoma might have slowed him down. Now can you imagine that? Why don't we have a militarized zone between Kansas and Oklahoma? Its clear that at least one terrorist has crossed that border and yet absolutely nothing has been done to close that border since the OKC bombing. What do you think about that? Seriously.

How many people are you willing to board in your home? *takes out notepad* Can I put you down for three?
is that three people or three families?

I know...Why don't you guys just turn the statue 180 degrees so it's facing america?

No. Shoplifting is rather different from immigration. I'm sure you're a bright guy and can see not only the difference, but the fact that we're talking about immigration and not shopping.true, Santa Barbara is only for breaking of some laws, not fighting to change them but to break them.

Well, it probably is, given the alternative of starving to death in some shitsplat foreign country.and funny that Santa Barbara is saying to break US laws but says nothing about fighting for the rights in other countries.

I'm pretty sure the kind of crime you just mentioned is not committed by illegal immigrants, but good ole American entrepeneurs. And I'm not sure how many are locked in the back of the truck to die.breaking immigration laws is being done my the illegal Immigrants. hence the word you used. bolded incase you missed it. btw, they (Illegal Aliens) pay the Cyotes to lock them in a truck to sneak them across the boarders. so the Illegal Aliens take some of the responsiblity also.

Which presumption? The one that people who are against illegal immigration tend to desire increased border security and controls? Look at this thread, look on this forum, make your own conclusion on that. Or the presumption that Juni was comparing illegal immigration to child molestation? Right in the text. So no, not really hot air.and lets not forget Santa Barbara's support of breaking laws either.

My position is one of open borders. That would include everyone. Because the mexican issue is coming to a head now, we speak of mexicans, but I wish everyone who can make it to our borders, to come into our borders, and what happens happens. Maybe someone will have 3 loaves and a fish.
Yeah, I'm sure there are some terrorists who are just dying to come here. You know if that happened, our entire public works system, schools, hospitals, prisons, etc would be overwhelmed and it would be madness. I try not to insult people for their political views, but I just can't resist stating that you, my good sir, are a completely retarded halfwit with no grip on reality. Thank you, and have a nice day.

Yeah, I'm sure there are some terrorists who are just dying to come here.

You know, if the matter was national security, we would have closed off Canadas border too. After all its like a billion times larger.

You know, if the matter was national security, we would have closed off Canadas border too. After all its like a billion times larger.
Well, not a billion, but it is the largest unprotected border in the world. I see your point, though. Still, think of our society! We would be flooded by people who want to have our wealth but would care less about assimiliating into American society, kind of like what's happening right now. And our schools and hospitals would completely go to shit.

is that three people or three families?

Gonna have to be 3 people or one family or 4 or less. We are 4 in 1000 sq feet with one bathroom. It can be done. It would be a helluva adventure and everyone would benefit from it. We would have them jobs in less than 2 weeks and a home in no time. Less than 60 days, I imagine, we could have them in at least a motor home, probably a trailer or an apartment.

As I mentioned before, we already have one immigrant in the family seeking citizen status. This is not unknown territory for my family, nor for the community that I live in where we have MANY immigrants going to school here (Kansas State University). We have always had immigrants here. What could you possibley find shocking about that?

Gonna have to be 3 people or one family or 4 or less. We are 4 in 1000 sq feet with one bathroom. It can be done. It would be a helluva adventure and everyone would benefit from it. We would have them jobs in less than 2 weeks and a home in no time. Less than 60 days, I imagine, we could have them in at least a motor home, probably a trailer or an apartment.

As I mentioned before, we already have one immigrant in the family seeking citizen status. This is not unknown territory for my family, nor for the community that I live in where we have MANY immigrants going to school here (Kansas State University). We have always had immigrants here. What could you possibley find shocking about that?
here in Hawaii, it's not unusuall to find 3 or 4 families (including their extended relatives) living in a house that big.

I kid you not, their yard looks like they're holding a party every night, with all the cars parked around. :D

Yeah, I'm sure there are some terrorists who are just dying to come here. You know if that happened, our entire public works system, schools, hospitals, prisons, etc would be overwhelmed and it would be madness. I try not to insult people for their political views, but I just can't resist stating that you, my good sir, are a completely retarded halfwit with no grip on reality. Thank you, and have a nice day.

I am a woman, and glad you got it all out. I too resort to name-calling when I unable to come up with an intelligent responce...but usually I am drunk when I do it. Are you drunk, sir?

Still, think of our society! We would be flooded by people who want to have our wealth but would care less about assimiliating into American society, kind of like what's happening right now.

Well, We never assimilated to the American Indians...I guess thats OK though.

But seriously, maybe we should give incentive to assimilate. Offer free english-speaking as well as other classes, maybe make it less than 10 years to become a citizen...but wait that would be socialist, wouldnt it? And we cant have that now can we?

here in Hawaii, it's not unusuall to find 3 or 4 families (including their extended relatives) living in a house that big.

I kid you not, their yard looks like they're holding a party every night, with all the cars parked around. :D

LOL That sounds fun!

My great-grandfather bought a 2 bedroom bungalo in the thirties and it housed himself, a grown daughter, her husband and two kids, his daughter-in-law (whose husband, his son, was killed), her 3 children, and his son-in-laws youngest sister. I guess that was about 800 sq feet. The economy was in the crapper and that was the best he could do, and do he did.

With the exception of my uncle complaining of having to sleep next to the washer and dryer, they have wonderful memories. He eventually bought the one bedroom house next door and moved the daughter-in-law and her kids into that. But man-o-man, what a family! And jews and gentiles under the same roof to boot!

=D

LOL That sounds fun!

My great-grandfather bought a 2 bedroom bungalo in the thirties and it housed himself, a grown daughter, her husband and two kids, his daughter-in-law (whose husband, his son, was killed), her 3 children, and his son-in-laws youngest sister. I guess that was about 800 sq feet. The economy was in the crapper and that was the best he could do, and do he did.

With the exception of my uncle complaining of having to sleep next to the washer and dryer, they have wonderful memories. He eventually bought the one bedroom house next door and moved the daughter-in-law and her kids into that. But man-o-man, what a family! And jews and gentiles under the same roof to boot!

=Daww man, the dryer is the best place to sleep next to. get nice and toasty warm by the air.... :D

of course when the washer leaks... :(

why get rid of it? doesn't the Statue stand for all things American (freedoms, happiness, etc)?

I am a woman, and glad you got it all out. I too resort to name-calling when I unable to come up with an intelligent responce...but usually I am drunk when I do it. Are you drunk, sir?
Please. You're response was hardly the benchmark of intellectualism. So tell me, do you want our schools, hospitals, environment (overpopulation, y'know) to completely go to waste and have America become a third world country?

Please. You're response was hardly the benchmark of intellectualism. So tell me, do you want our schools, hospitals, environment (overpopulation, y'know) to completely go to waste and have America become a third world country?

I think your vision is over-dramatic and clouded by fear. You really need to read up on the effects of open migration on economies. This is exactly why western Europe formed a union. This is exactly why the united states is as wealthy as it is, unrestricted trade/migration between states. Your responce is emotional rather than well thought out. I suggest you do some reading on the subject and then consider all the points before reacting in a juvenile and hostile manner.

I think your vision is over-dramatic and clouded by fear. You really need to read up on the effects of open migration on economies. This is exactly why western Europe formed a union. This is exactly why the united states is as wealthy as it is, unrestricted trade/migration between states. Your responce is emotional rather than well thought out. I suggest you do some reading on the subject and then consider all the points before reacting in a juvenile and hostile manner.

You tell em unrestrained!

Pass me the dynamite for the Statue of Liberty please.

There was an actual interview from a 'Hidden' from view immigrant that basicly said that she was there for the welfare and free schools.

Yes, there are always a few. but most people who come into a country probably do want to work. And I bet there are a lot more people BORN in america who take advantage of the welfare system than are trying to get in.


By all means throw out people who do absolutely nothing to contribute, but why not give them a chance to get a job and apply for citizenship instead of throwing people out all and sundry?

The Statue of Liberty is a painful reminder of the welcoming place the USA once was and is no more.

"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..." What an embarassment those words are now.

The Mahoneys, Jorgensen's, Cartier's and Holmes's have decided to slam the gate less than 200 years after their own immigration to the United States because a bunch of poor brown people want in. And what did their own ancestor's immigrate with? The shirts on their backs, more or less. But don't expect the middle class great-grandchildren of economical refuges to understand what a chance their ancestor's took to give them that life. The thought that they could have been born in Budapest and be on the public dole right now never occurs to them. And it was only the chance of birth that allowed them to be born in the USA at all.

But now they want to put up a wall, like the one that they were so happy to take credit for taking down in Berlin. Like the one the Israelis built along the Gaza strip. And for what? A few thousand migrant worker jobs? A few thousand janitor positions? A few thousand road construction jobs? A few thousand meat packing plant jobs? A few thousand hotel maid jobs? Jobs that white people would rather die than take?

Take down the Statue of Liberty. She is a reminder of our former unselfishness and generous humanitarian spirit. It is long gone and in its wake we plan to build a monument to fear and greed...a 370 mile fence...a militarized zone...to keep out the brown people who will work hard and long for very little pay and no benefits.

And yet many of us will be forced to retire to Mexico because we won't be able to live in the USA on our savings after social security is bankrupt. What a great hypocricy we live.

I don't care if they come in. They need to come in LEGALLY!!!! That is what the problem is. They are crossing the border ILLEGALLY. My ancestors were immagrents but they came here legally, why do they get to be the exception just cause they're brown? (please don't take that the wrong way, just using Merrymaki's wording)
THEY are the hypocrits to think they have a RIGHT to trapes into our country without following our laws. FUCK THEM! Do it legally or don't do it at all!!!
And just because you didn't plan for retirement isn't our fault. You should plan better.

I know...Why don't you guys just turn the statue 180 degrees so it's facing america?

I dont think you know what you are talking about
It already DOES face America. It faces Southeast and is surrounded by populated bits of the United States in a full 360 degrees. There is no possible direction of the compass you can point from Ellis Island and not be pointing at the U.S. Several States are included. This does not even need to include Ellis Island to be true.

Its like saying spin a statue in Salina kansas around until it points at the United States. Spin Admiral Nelsons statue in Trafalgar square around until it faces England. Spin the Sphinx until it faces egypt. Spin Mt Rushmore around until it faces South Dakota.

crikey

I dont think you know what you are talking about
It already DOES face America. It faces Southeast and is surrounded by populated bits of the United States in a full 360 degrees. There is no possible direction of the compass you can point from Ellis Island and not be pointing at the U.S. Several States are included. This does not even need to include Ellis Island to be true.

Its like saying spin a statue in Salina kansas around until it points at the United States. Spin Admiral Nelsons statue in Trafalgar square around until it faces England. Spin the Sphinx until it faces egypt. Spin Mt Rushmore around until it faces South Dakota.

crikey

Now wait just a minute here. Have you actually ever been to Salina, KS? If you had you'd know it was a "NO SPIN ZONE".

:D

true, Santa Barbara is only for breaking of some laws, not fighting to change them but to break them.

Since when are they mutually exclusive? Never.


and funny that Santa Barbara is saying to break US laws but says nothing about fighting for the rights in other countries.

I live in the US, most of my politics is concerned with what happens in the US, not other countries.

And could you stop talking about me in the third person? It's kind of creepy. "It puts the lotion on its skin..."


and lets not forget Santa Barbara's support of breaking laws either.

Hey, it's not like I'm arguing that pedophilia should be legal or anything.

And it's not really the principle of the law which I'm arguing about, but the practice. In practice, immigration is next to impossible if you happen to be poor and/or from a non-English speaking country.

Since when are they mutually exclusive? Never.they have always been mutually exclusive. there are ways to change laws without breaking them.

I live in the US, most of my politics is concerned with what happens in the US, not other countries.

Well, it probably is, given the alternative of starving to death in some shitsplat foreign country.yet you state the reason why they break US laws is because of poor conditions at home. so instead of fighting to change conditions for those who are stuck there, you would rather break the laws here.

And could you stop talking about me in the third person? It's kind of creepy. "It puts the lotion on its skin..."apologies, don't know if you're a He or She and would rather not make assumptions.

Hey, it's not like I'm arguing that pedophilia should be legal or anything. neither am I, but you're arguing to allow and not punnish anyone who breaks our immigration laws because you see those laws as being unfair, and inefficent. the way to handle those laws is to fight to have them changed. not encourage others to break them.

And it's not really the principle of the law which I'm arguing about, but the practice. In practice, immigration is next to impossible if you happen to be poor and/or from a non-English speaking country.It is possible, cumbersome? yes, Possible? yes, hard? yes. as you said, people born here take their citizenship for granted. I find that those who honor and cherish what America has given them as well as what America can give are those who did fight and stuggle for the right to be called American. Make the path easier, sure. Assist those and sponsor them to become Americans? Go ahead. Sneak them across the border and expect them to be treated like Americans. never.

This thread is just about talked out. Thank you for everyone who contributed. =)