NationStates Jolt Archive

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-05-19T013640Z_01_T8989_RTRUKOC_0_US-KOREA-NORTH-MISSILE.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsArt-L3-Top+NewsNews-5

TOKYO (Reuters) - North Korea may be preparing to launch a long-range Taepodong ballistic missile that could have the capacity to reach all of the United States, Japanese national broadcaster NHK reported on Friday.

Quoting unidentified South Korean government officials, NHK said satellite pictures showed there have been signs since early this month around a launch site in northeastern North Korea that pointed to a possible firing in the near future.

South Korea's defense ministry said it could not confirm the report. Japanese officials have not commented.

The missile appeared to be the Taepodong-2, which has the longest range in North Korea's arsenal, and if it is a modified version it may have a range of 15,000 km (9,300 miles), which would cover all of the United States, NHK said.

Quoting Japanese government sources, Japan's Kyodo news agency also said a launch could be imminent.

North Korea shocked the international community in August 1998 when it fired a Taepodong missile that flew over Japan before falling into the Pacific Ocean.

The latest development comes amid a deadlock in six-party talks aimed at dismantling North Korea's nuclear programs, and ahead of a visit to China next week by the chief U.S. negotiator to the multilateral talks.

The talks involve the two Koreas, the United States, Japan, Russia and host China.

(Additional reporting by Jack Kim in Seoul)

This worries me a wee bit, but not too much. I know North Korea's government isn't stupid enough to try to nuke anyone. This may just be a missile test. But...we never know.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-05-19T013640Z_01_T8989_RTRUKOC_0_US-KOREA-NORTH-MISSILE.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsArt-L3-Top+NewsNews-5



This worries me a wee bit, but not too much. I know North Korea's government isn't stupid enough to try to nuke anyone. This may just be a missile test. But...we never know.
Wait, they aren't stupid enough? The government that keeps all their citizens in a famine to promote their ideology, and hire traffic guards in a city that doesn't have any cars? I have no confidence in the sanity of the North Korean government.

Wait, they aren't stupid enough? The government that keeps all their citizens in a famine to promote their ideology, and hire traffic guards in a city that doesn't have any cars? I have no confidence in the sanity of the North Korean government.
It's one thing to pull that kind of shit on their own people. But if they nuke Japan or the U.S., they know they'll be turned into glass by Russia, China, the U.S., Britain, France, Pakistan, India, Israel, and anyone else with nukes within a few minutes. I don't think even they would risk that.

And yet it's the Muslims who want nuclear reactors instead of the psychotic fruitcake with actual nuclear weapons that gets bitch slapped while the US handles Kim Jong-Il with kid gloves instead of a pre-emptive strike.

And people would blame Ahmadinejad for wanting nuclear weapons even if that was really the case given the light of this situation?

Nukes = US tries to talk you out of having them.

No Nukes = US tries to invade you.

And yet it's the Muslims who want nuclear reactors instead of the psychotic fruitcake with actual nuclear weapons that gets bitch slapped while the US handles Kim Jong-Il with kid gloves instead of a pre-emptive strike.

And people would blame Ahmadinejad for wanting nuclear weapons even if that was really the case given the light of this situation?

Nukes = US tries to talk you out of having them.

No Nukes = US tries to invade you.
U.S. foreign policy lately seems to be: "Well, you look safe. We'll fuck you over. Hey you over there, the one that can nuke us! We'll play it nice and easy with you." Cowards.

This worries me a wee bit, but not too much. I know North Korea's government isn't stupid enough to try to nuke anyone.
Maybe not stupid, but pleeenty crazy.

U.S. foreign policy lately seems to be: "Well, you look safe. We'll fuck you over. Hey you over there, the one that can nuke us! We'll play it nice and easy with you." Cowards.
Dude, get some perspecitive. Or grow a brain or something. It's not even worth it to try and explain this to you.

Dude, get some perspecitive. Or grow a brain or something. It's not even worth it to try and explain this to you.
Is it not? Go ahead. Explain it. I'm all ears.

Makes me feel glad that Bush is trying to negotiate treaties with the North Korean axis of evil, while simultaneously looking to start a fight with the Iran axis of evil. I guess evil isn't an absolute eh?

It's one thing to pull that kind of shit on their own people. But if they nuke Japan or the U.S., they know they'll be turned into glass by Russia, China, the U.S., Britain, France, Pakistan, India, Israel, and anyone else with nukes within a few minutes. I don't think even they would risk that.

China would launch their nukes at everyone else, not korea.

I doubt they'll do anything. Oh, I'm sure they'll be a launch, but it will probably be another test flight designed to saber rattle (something North Korea likes doing when it feels that the world isn't paying enough attention to it) and will probably serve as a reminder to the 6 party talks that you have to deal with them.

Hmmm... might possibly have something to do with the whole dog and poney show in Washington over the Japanese kidnap victims, especially as North Korea has broken off talks with Japan over it, but President Bush has vowed to press N. Korea over it.

Or it may not.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-05-19T013638Z_01_TKU002647_RTRUKOT_0_TEXT0.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsArt-L1-RelatedNews-1

Well that sounds like good news anyway. The Japanese gov't doens't think it's a launch site.

That said, I want that coroborated before I trust it.

And yet it's the Muslims who want nuclear reactors instead of the psychotic fruitcake with actual nuclear weapons that gets bitch slapped while the US handles Kim Jong-Il with kid gloves instead of a pre-emptive strike.

That'd have to be one hell of a preemptive strike to take out all the artillery the North Koreans have aimed at Seoul.

There's a reason we have to tread carefully with NoKo...unlike Iran they can actually back up their big talk if they really have to.

That'd have to be one hell of a preemptive strike to take out all the artillery the North Koreans have aimed at Seoul.

There's a reason we have to tread carefully with NoKo...unlike Iran they can actually back up their big talk if they really have to.

Which just goes to prove the observation that having actual military and/or nuclear power will get the 800-pound gorilla off your back and cowing for rationality. Whereas if you don't, you stand a very good chance of getting ape-raped.

Which just goes to prove the observation that having actual military and/or nuclear power will get the 800-pound gorilla off your back and cowing for rationality. Whereas if you don't, you stand a very good chance of getting ape-raped.

Very true...too bad for the average North Korean that they basically ape-raped their own economy to get that military and nuclear power.

let them have at it..they launch..then in short order there is no more North Korea. Hey they want to get it over with ...go for it...one less bunch of morons to worry over .

let them have at it..they launch..then in short order there is no more North Korea. Hey they want to get it over with ...go for it...one less bunch of morons to worry over .
That would be a BAD thing. Please try to remember that all the people in a country are not their government.

This worries me a wee bit, but not too much. I know North Korea's government isn't stupid enough to try to nuke anyone. This may just be a missile test. But...we never know.Uh... you haven't been really paying attention have you. Kim Jong-Il is as mad as a hatter...

Uh... you haven't been really paying attention have you. Kim Jong-Il is as mad as a hatter...

Mad enough to blow himself up? Maybe, maybe not.

They get to fire one missle before they are totally obliterated off of the face of the Earth...I don't think they'll try it. Besides, they don't have the economy necessary to launch missles beyond the ones already produced...they can't even keep the lights on and their people fed, let alone purchase more than a minute quantity of the machinery or equipment necessary for advanced missle technology.

Is it not? Go ahead. Explain it. I'm all ears.
*Silence*

...

*Tumbleweed drifts by*

Makes me feel glad that Bush is trying to negotiate treaties with the North Korean axis of evil, while simultaneously looking to start a fight with the Iran axis of evil. I guess evil isn't an absolute eh?
All evil is equal, but some is more equal than others.

All evil is equal, but some is more equal than others.


Quod licet jovi, non licet bovi.

Now, maybe this'll put this whole silly Iran controversy into perspective. Unlike in Iran, in the DPRK most people have it pretty bad. Their government is an Orwellian dystopia, I don't even wanna know the sort of thing that would go on in their prisons and labour camps.

Now they have nukes, and they've been selling missile technology (as well as all sorts of other drugs and weapons, plus fake currency) for many many years.

A bit of serious action against the North Korean government would probably be a more worthwhile waste of government money than this bitchfest regarding Iran.

Well if Armageddon arrives don't wake me i shalt be sleeping.

The difference between NK and iran is:

1) Kim Jong-Il is, in reality, extremely Westernised. He reportedly likes tall blonde women and Western movies. Ahmadinejad, on the other hand, probably doesn't.

2) NK is not religious. Say what you will about nationalism, but religious fevour is arguably even worse.

The other difference is that while North Korea may want to invade South Korea, it doesn't want to "wipe it off the map". North Korea wants reunification - and in a real sense, so does South Korea.

If there is anything that Iran clearly wants, it is to "wipe Israel off the map".

Pretty big difference, if you ask me.

The difference between NK and iran is:

2) NK is not religious. Say what you will about nationalism, but religious fevour is arguably even worse.
Juche is kinda religion-esque, though.

The other difference is that while North Korea may want to invade South Korea, it doesn't want to "wipe it off the map". North Korea wants reunification - and in a real sense, so does South Korea.

If there is anything that Iran clearly wants, it is to "wipe Israel off the map".

Pretty big difference, if you ask me.

But Iran has a constitutional system of 'checks and balances' if you like. Ahmadinejad couldn't go to war without the support of the Mullahs, who are far less stupid and know that war with Israel would be a very, very, Bad Idea.

North Korea, on the other hand, is a one-man (Not even one-party like PRC) dictatorship. And that one man is a nutter, big time, with a taste for expensive Brandy. Whereas in Iran there's people to say "no", in NK ther isn't. For me, that's why NK is a much bigger worry.

But then, it's all relative. Israel would say Iran is a bigger worry, but I don't doubt that Japan and SK think NK is.

Yes, we all know how smart the mullahs were in declaring war on Iraq.

Sending millions of young men and boys to their deaths in human wave assaults.

Yeah, real fucking smart.

Yes, we all know how smart the mullahs were in declaring war on Iraq.

Sending millions of young men and boys to their deaths in human wave assaults.

Yeah, real fucking smart.
It was Iraq that declared war on Iran. The advantage Iran had were numbers of people. What did you want them to do?

It was Iraq that declared war on Iran. The advantage Iran had were numbers of people. What did you want them to do?

They could have held defensive positions. Instead, they thought it was a great idea to repeatedly do human wave assaults on Iraqi fortified positions.

*Silence*

...

*Tumbleweed drifts by*
I beleive his point is that preventing a person from GETTING nukes means that they CANT nuke you in the first place.
Besides, an invasion of North Korea, or nuking them, would be a very nasty affiair no matter how it was handled. The Korean border is the most heavily fortified place on Earth. Think what WWII would have been like if Germany had launched a direct assault on the Maginot line.
As to nukes, the problem with a pre-emptive strike is that the whole world hates you for it. If your going to say something like, 'Well, the whole world already hates the US', then I should point out that there is a difference between 'dislike' and 'hate'.
'Hate' means they go, 'Gosh, the US is nuking people for no reason! We might want to kinda distance ourselves from them', while their citizens storm the local US Embassy.
That and its rather hard to determine how China would react to such an action, but the invasion and nuking. They REALLY wouldnt want a US state right on their border, and they have an excuse in the form of helping their 'Communist Brethren', whether nor not they care at all about said Communist Brethren, considering that neither state is really Communist anyway.

The missile appeared to be the Taepodong-2, which has the longest range in North Korea's arsenal,

I read this in my head, and laughed. I pronounced Taepodong as "type-o-dong" *giggle*

They could have held defensive positions. Instead, they thought it was a great idea to repeatedly do human wave assaults on Iraqi fortified positions.
They had to attack Iraq's artillery somehow. They couldn't just well let the Iraqis consolidate their positions and let them shell their cities and supply lines, could they?

Juche is kinda religion-esque, though.

Yeah, but it doesn't have the same edge. If you're a dumb, regular citizen, what are you going to respond to more? "Fight for God and then die and go to heaven where you have sex with hot female angels!" or "Fight for North Korea and then you die and we bury you."?

It's not quite that simple..... NK isn't much of a threat to the US. It wasn't NKoreans who slammed aircraft into the towers. NK however is a HUGE threat to South Korea, Japan even Tiawan So while the US could in relative safety bomb N Korea further back into the stone age it behooves our freinds not to. Kim Jong Ill is worth waiting out as an interal "accident" is possible then put a more reasonable leader in power..Basicly Korea has 1 problem Kim.

Iran has been sponsering anti Isreal/US terrorism for 20+ years they have made over threats and made no secret of there intent. Sadly if the only change in Iran was the removal of some of the more hardliners and their replacement with moderate or liberal leaders Iran would be a shining example of an Islamic Rebublic.



U.S. foreign policy lately seems to be: "Well, you look safe. We'll fuck you over. Hey you over there, the one that can nuke us! We'll play it nice and easy with you." Cowards.

Listen. The Chinese believe we believe we don't know about fertilizer plants(Especially in Guangzhou)that are disguised as, well, "Hey, nuke, come and get me! We'll have an explosive wedding which will cause MASSIVE damage!"

All I can say is, I think they are nuclear.

They could have held defensive positions. Instead, they thought it was a great idea to repeatedly do human wave assaults on Iraqi fortified positions.

Look, according to your post, it was the mullahs and leaders who sent human wave assaults. That means politicians, not trained generals or anything of the sort.

Are you going to tell me Cheney is an excellent general next? Politicians don't belong in military strategy making.

EDIT: Point raised earlier about Iraqi artillery noted. What about that bit? If you had what the Iranians had, what would YOU do about Iraqis consolidating artillery positions?

Look, according to your post, it was the mullahs and leaders who sent human wave assaults. That means politicians, not trained generals or anything of the sort.

Are you going to tell me Cheney is an excellent general next? Politicians don't belong in military strategy making.

Exactly. And no, I don't think Cheney should be a general. He's not qualified.

Mullahs in Iran took a central role in making military decisions in Iran, largely because the military had already been purged of any military officers (who had been trained during the Shah's regime).

They were fucking idiots. They still are. You can count on them trying to nuke Israel as soon as they think they have the means to do so.

Make freindly with the US so they would stop support Saddam and supply Iran with baddly needed spare parts for their air force. Iran possesed one of the worlds best airforces at the time of the Shah, lack of US made spare parts kept them on the ground and had they been up and running and the pilots not "purged" Saddam would have had his ass handed to him.



Look, according to your post, it was the mullahs and leaders who sent human wave assaults. That means politicians, not trained generals or anything of the sort.

Are you going to tell me Cheney is an excellent general next? Politicians don't belong in military strategy making.

EDIT: Point raised earlier about Iraqi artillery noted. What about that bit? If you had what the Iranians had, what would YOU do about Iraqis consolidating artillery positions?

Whether it is an intercontinental ballistics missile or not the US has adequate means to defend itself as it is.

After NK gave up pursuing nuclear arms there should not be an immediate conflict following anyways.

i think it is time for Sam Fisher to go there and investigate this more, maybe even taking down the entire launch facility almost by himself.

did i mention i was a splinter cell fan?

Whether it is an intercontinental ballistics missile or not the US has adequate means to defend itself as it is.


The "Star wars" defense system never went up remember? There is no real defense. Being able to do it back fifty times over is not much of a consolation when a dozen of yor major cities are large radioactive craters.

I seriously dont think anyone would ever launch a nuke. Mutual assured destruction is an itty bitty risk I dont think anyone at all is willing to take.

EDIT: Wait...Israel might just be malicious enough.

The "Star wars" defense system never went up remember? There is no real defense. Being able to do it back fifty times over is not much of a consolation when a dozen of yor major cities are large radioactive craters.

I am referring to the US's modified 747 with a chemical laser using oxygen and iodine as reagents. They still operate don't they?

I am referring to the US's modified 747 with a chemical laser using oxygen and iodine as reagents. They still operate don't they?

Buggered if I know, but if I had a choice I would use something a teensy bit faster than a 747 to intercept a ballistic missile......

I am referring to the US's modified 747 with a chemical laser using oxygen and iodine as reagents. They still operate don't they?
They still DON'T operate. It has been tested successfully, but still not ready for combat. It will probably be 2008 to 2010 when they're ready to be deployed.

Buggered if I know, but if I had a choice I would use something a teensy bit faster than a 747 to intercept a ballistic missile......
Light is pretty fast, the 747 just carries the laser.

Light is pretty fast, the 747 just carries the laser.

BUt light looses its power in accord with the Inverse square law. at 500 meters if the laser is 10,000 watts, at 1000 meters its 2500. SO the 747 might not be able to get close enough to the ICBM for the laser to have enough power to take it down.

BUt light looses its power in accord with the Inverse square law. at 500 meters if the laser is 10,000 watts, at 1000 meters its 2500. SO the 747 might not be able to get close enough to the ICBM for the laser to have enough power to take it down.

That is natural light being broken off, the modified 747 will however have modifications to intensify and focus the strength of the laser to keep up the heat. I believe Discovery channel's estimate of the firepower was the heat of at least the sun, on ground level.

BUt light looses its power in accord with the Inverse square law. at 500 meters if the laser is 10,000 watts, at 1000 meters its 2500. SO the 747 might not be able to get close enough to the ICBM for the laser to have enough power to take it down.

Not if it's a laser beam. Especially a laser beam focused to a spot a few inches across at the target.

But wouldn't that just prematurely detonate the missile? It'd still release fallout that would eventually drift over the U.S. via wind...right?

Not to forget that the Russians reckon their new missiles are strong enough to withstand any laser hit, as well as virtually all other anti-ballistic missile technology.

A working large-scale missile defence system is a myth. You can build small ones, like the Israeli Arrow, which will deal with more primitive missiles, but ultimately it is more difficult to build any given defence technology against a missile than it is to build a counter-device for your missile.

That's why I don't think there'll ever be a reliable defence against ICBMs.

Not to forget that the Russians reckon their new missiles are strong enough to withstand any laser hit, as well as virtually all other anti-ballistic missile technology.

A working large-scale missile defence system is a myth. You can build small ones, like the Israeli Arrow, which will deal with more primitive missiles, but ultimately it is more difficult to build any given defence technology against a missile than it is to build a counter-device for your missile.

That's why I don't think there'll ever be a reliable defence against ICBMs.
There is one: a shield. Either a shield that comes over the entire nation(a la dome made of metal or something) or an energy shield. Except there's no freaking way we'd have the technology necessary for either one to be practical until ICBMs are way out of date anyway.

They were fucking idiots. They still are. You can count on them trying to nuke Israel as soon as they think they have the means to do so.

Name me a politician/political leader who has ever seriously considered (NOT RHETORIC!) nuking a country when they know they will be nuked back.

The Mullahs are all comfortable where they are. You don't see them leading any troops do you?

And I haven't heard what you're recommended tactic is at the time.

And no, you can't use the "Make friends with the US" argument. That would mean the equivalent of shooting yourself and letting whatever puppet the US wants come into place. Remember, Iraq was getting US support to 'contain' the Iranians.

I’m inclined to disbelieve that N. Korea is preparing to launch a nuclear missile at the United States for several reasons. First the article cites unnamed “government officials” which could mean anybody from any government department and lets not forget it’s in the interest of the South Korean government to keep the U.S. focused on resolving the latest round of negotiations to see N. Korea disarmed of its bombs or at least guarantee to holt its nuclear program.

Second it’s in the interest of the N. Korean government to engage the U.S. and indicating that they are making potential launch preparations around a missile station is sure to get American attention so likewise this might simply be a manoeuvre to gain interest. Thirdly it’s not in the immediate interest of the north to launch a missile since doing so could see the Americans disengage from the talks and would gain the ere of Japan and South Korea and I doubt the Chinese would be happy either.

The Dear Leader is a very cunning and intelligent leader and he would have to be to have maintained control over the country despite the dramatic change in regional and geo-political affairs since his assumption of power. I honestly don’t think N. Korea has any intentions of launching a nuclear missile on American territory or the Russians or Japanese either since doing so would have infinitely broader consequences then gains. It would prompt the militarising of Japan which has an immediate nuclear weapons production capacity, and would receive a direct military attack from the US, South Korea and probably Russia and even China.

To summarise; I think this is a new article meant to gain the attention of the ‘powers that be’ rather then anything that posses a direct threat to you or me.

I’m inclined to disbelieve that N. Korea is preparing to launch a nuclear missile at the United States for several reasons. First the article cites unnamed “government officials” which could mean anybody from any government department and lets not forget it’s in the interest of the South Korean government to keep the U.S. focused on resolving the latest round of negotiations to see N. Korea disarmed of its bombs or at least guarantee to holt its nuclear program.

Second it’s in the interest of the N. Korean government to engage the U.S. and indicating that they are making potential launch preparations around a missile station is sure to get American attention so likewise this might simply be a manoeuvre to gain interest. Thirdly it’s not in the immediate interest of the north to launch a missile since doing so could see the Americans disengage from the talks and would gain the ere of Japan and South Korea and I doubt the Chinese would be happy either.

The Dear Leader is a very cunning and intelligent leader and he would have to be to have maintained control over the country despite the dramatic change in regional and geo-political affairs since his assumption of power. I honestly don’t think N. Korea has any intentions of launching a nuclear missile on American territory or the Russians or Japanese either since doing so would have infinitely broader consequences then gains. It would prompt the militarising of Japan which has an immediate nuclear weapons production capacity, and would receive a direct military attack from the US, South Korea and probably Russia and even China.

To summarise; I think this is a new article meant to gain the attention of the ‘powers that be’ rather then anything that posses a direct threat to you or me.

Quite. I think it all goes to prove what The Onion has said (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/42604).

And yet it's the Muslims who want nuclear reactors instead of the psychotic fruitcake with actual nuclear weapons that gets bitch slapped while the US handles Kim Jong-Il with kid gloves instead of a pre-emptive strike.

And people would blame Ahmadinejad for wanting nuclear weapons even if that was really the case given the light of this situation?

Nukes = US tries to talk you out of having them.

No Nukes = US tries to invade you.

Its not quite like that, US forces in the area are either based in South Korea or Japan, If those 2 countries, particually South Korea say 'no war' , then there will be no war because they will have to deal with the aftermath

If South Korea was US territory, then I guess the North Korean nuke site would all be smoking holes in the ground by now.

Its all about what Kim Jong Loony wants, and what he wants is enough supplies and materials for the army so they support his leadership and f*** everyone else in North Korea, remember they threw out the world food aid program last year because the world food people objected to the military stealing the supplies for themselves.

I’m inclined to disbelieve that N. Korea is preparing to launch a nuclear missile at the United States for several reasons. First the article cites unnamed “government officials” which could mean anybody from any government department and lets not forget it’s in the interest of the South Korean government to keep the U.S. focused on resolving the latest round of negotiations to see N. Korea disarmed of its bombs or at least guarantee to holt its nuclear program.

Second it’s in the interest of the N. Korean government to engage the U.S. and indicating that they are making potential launch preparations around a missile station is sure to get American attention so likewise this might simply be a manoeuvre to gain interest. Thirdly it’s not in the immediate interest of the north to launch a missile since doing so could see the Americans disengage from the talks and would gain the ere of Japan and South Korea and I doubt the Chinese would be happy either.

The Dear Leader is a very cunning and intelligent leader and he would have to be to have maintained control over the country despite the dramatic change in regional and geo-political affairs since his assumption of power. I honestly don’t think N. Korea has any intentions of launching a nuclear missile on American territory or the Russians or Japanese either since doing so would have infinitely broader consequences then gains. It would prompt the militarising of Japan which has an immediate nuclear weapons production capacity, and would receive a direct military attack from the US, South Korea and probably Russia and even China.

To summarise; I think this is a new article meant to gain the attention of the ‘powers that be’ rather then anything that posses a direct threat to you or me.

At last! Someone who actually thinks this through reasonably instead of repeating scare-mongering rhetoric.

Obviously you're right, on all counts. Kim knows exactly what he's doing, as do the authorities in Seoul.

At last! Someone who actually thinks this through reasonably instead of repeating scare-mongering rhetoric.

Obviously you're right, on all counts. Kim knows exactly what he's doing, as do the authorities in Seoul.

I guess this explains why North Korea, in the past few years, has already launched several ballistic missiles directly over Japan, dropping booster sections, etc., and impacting in the ocean just on the other side of Japan, less than 100 miles from the shore.

These launches have been accompanied by threatening language, etc., and have prompted Japan to sign on to US missile defense.

It's why the Airborne Laser is going to be stationed in Japan. Initially the Japanese were resistant to the idea, but after a few missiles over their heads, they gladly asked the US to base it there.